Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 1, 2025
Soldiers Have ‘Duty To Refuse’ Hegseth’s Order To Commit War Crimes

My post on Trump’s war on Venezuela two days ago mentioned a Washington Post report (archived) about a war crime directly ordered by U.S. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth:

The longer the U.S. surveillance aircraft followed the boat, the more confident intelligence analysts watching from command centers became that the 11 people on board were ferrying drugs.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gave a spoken directive, according to two people with direct knowledge of the operation. “The order was to kill everybody,” one of them said.

A missile screamed off the Trinidad coast, striking the vessel and igniting a blaze from bow to stern. For minutes, commanders watched the boat burning on a live drone feed. As the smoke cleared, they got a jolt: Two survivors were clinging to the smoldering wreck.

The Special Operations commander overseeing the Sept. 2 attack — the opening salvo in the Trump administration’s war on suspected drug traffickers in the Western Hemisphere — ordered a second strike to comply with Hegseth’s instructions, two people familiar with the matter said. The two men were blown apart in the water.

The Intercept had previously reported (archived) the second strike the U.S. military had launched against survivors:

People on board the boat off the coast of Venezuela that the U.S. military destroyed last Tuesday were said to have survived an initial strike, according to two American officials familiar with the matter. They were then killed shortly after in a follow-up attack.

Last week, a high-ranking Pentagon official who spoke to the Intercept on the condition of anonymity said that the strike in the Caribbean was a criminal attack on civilians and said that the Trump administration paved the way for it by firing the top legal authorities of the Army and the Air Force earlier this year.

“The U.S. is now directly targeting civilians. Drug traffickers may be criminals but they aren’t combatants,” the War Department official said. “When Trump fired the military’s top lawyers the rest saw the writing on the wall, and instead of being a critical firebreak they are now a rubber stamp complicit in this crime.”

The high-ranking Pentagon official is correct in that the strikes against boats in international waters are criminal attacks on civilians.

But the killing of survivors of such strikes is more than that. It is undoubtedly a war crime.

Hegseth’s order to kill survivors was clearly illegal. It was the duty of the soldiers in the line of command to reject the order. That they have not done so but followed the order is in itself a war crime.

How do we know this?

Because the Department of Defense’s LAW OF WAR MANUAL (LOWM) (pdf) says so:

18.3 DUTIES OF INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES

Each member of the armed services has a duty to: (1) comply with the law of war in good faith; and (2) refuse to comply with clearly illegal orders to commit violations of the law of war.

Further down the Manual uses the exact case in question,  an order to kill survivors at sea, as an example of an illegal order:

18.3.2 Refuse to Comply With Clearly Illegal Orders to Commit Law of War Violations.
Members of the armed forces must refuse to comply with clearly illegal orders to commit law of war violations. In addition, orders should not be construed to authorize implicitly violations of law of war.

18.3.2.1 Clearly Illegal Orders to Commit Law of War Violations.
The requirement to refuse to comply with orders to commit law of war violations applies to orders to perform conduct that is clearly illegal or orders that the subordinate knows, in fact, are illegal. For example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal.27

Every soldier down the line of command, from the commanding general receiving Hegseth’s verbal order down to the guys who pushed the button to launch the missile had the duty to reject the order. Those who have not done so are themselves guilty.

The footnote in 18.3.2.1 points to the case of the Canadian hospital ship HMHS Llandovery Castle which on 27 June 1918 had been torpedoed by a German U-Boot:

The sinking was the deadliest Canadian naval disaster of the war. 234 doctors, nurses, members of the Canadian Army Medical Corps, soldiers and seamen died in the sinking and subsequent machine-gunning of lifeboats.

In 1921 a German court sentenced two officers to years in prison because they had followed the illegal order of the submarine’s captain, Helmut Brümmer-Patzig, to kill the survivors.

According to the footnote in the LoWM the court said:

“It is certainly to be urged in favor of the military subordinates, that they are under no obligation to question the order of their superior officer, and they can count upon its legality. But no such confidence can be held to exist, if such an order is universally known to everybody, including also the accused, to be without any doubt whatever against the law. This happens only in rare and exceptional cases. But this case was precisely one of them, for in the present instance, it was perfectly clear to the accused that killing defenceless people in the life-boats could be nothing else but a breach of the law. As naval officers by profession they were well aware, as the naval expert Saalwiachter has strikingly stated, that one is not legally authorized to kill defenceless people. They well knew that this was the case here. They quickly found out the facts by questioning the occupants in the boats when these were stopped. They could only have gathered, from the order given by Patzig, that he wished to make use of his subordinates to carry out a breach of the law. They should, therefore, have refused to obey.”

It can not be more clear. The DoD’s Law of Warfare manual is using the case of killing survivors at sea as an example of an illegal order. Today the court would say:

“They could only have gathered, from the order given by Hedseth, that he wished to make use of his subordinates to carry out a breach of the law. They should, therefore, have refused to obey.”

There are signs that one commanding officer did his duty and refused to execute Hegseth’s illegal order. On October 16 the U.S. military attacked another, the sixth, vessel. Two of the four people on board survived and were rescued:

President Trump said that the two survivors of a U.S. military strike Thursday on a vessel in the Caribbean Sea will be returned to their countries of origin.

One survivor is from Ecuador and the other is from Colombia.

Thursday’s strike marks the sixth known boat attack in the area since last month — and the first known attack with survivors. Mr. Trump said the strike was against a submarine carrying mostly fentanyl and other illegal narcotics.

A Navy helicopter transported the survivors from the semi-submersible to a Navy ship, a source familiar with the matter confirmed to CBS News on Friday.

“It is the custom of the sea to save people who are at risk in international waters. You don’t sort of sail on. That’s against every principle of naval activity,” Eugene R. Fidell, a senior research scholar at Yale Law School, told CBS News on Friday. “You’re supposed to save people, even though the people here are people who are only in danger because the U.S. was attempting to kill them.”

On the very same day those survivors were rescued, October 16, the DoD announced that the head of its Southern Command was ‘stepping down’:

The military commander overseeing the Pentagon’s escalating attacks against boats in the Caribbean Sea that the Trump administration says are smuggling drugs is stepping down, three U.S. officials said Thursday.

The officer, Adm. Alvin Holsey, is leaving his job as head of the U.S. Southern Command, which oversees all operations in Central and South America, even as the Pentagon has rapidly built up some 10,000 forces in the region in what it says is a major counterdrug and counterterrorism mission.

It was unclear why Holsey is leaving now, less than a year into his tenure, and in the midst of the biggest operation in his 37-year career. But one of the U.S. officials, all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss personnel matters, said that Holsey had raised concerns about the mission and the attacks on the alleged drug boats.

It now seems clear that Admiral Holsey got fired for not following Hegseth’s illegal order and for ordering the rescue of the survivors of the strike.

Hegseth meanwhile reveals himself as veritable psychopath:

Pete Hegseth @PeteHegseth – 0:37 UTC · Dec 1, 2025

For your Christmas wish list…

@U.S. Southern Command

There are signs that Congress is waking up to the issue (archived) and that Hegseth’s order may well have real consequences for him:

A top Republican and Democrats in Congress suggested on Sunday that American military officials might have committed a war crime in President Trump’s offensive against boats in the Caribbean after a news report said that during one such attack, a follow-up strike was ordered to kill survivors.

The lawmakers’ comments came after top Republicans and Democrats on the two congressional committees overseeing the Pentagon vowed over the weekend to increase their scrutiny of U.S. boat strikes in the Caribbean after the report. Mr. Turner said the [Washington Post] article had only sharpened lawmakers’ already grave questions about the operation.

The senators and member of congress should grow a spine and use their power over the budget to reign in the president. The secretary of defense must be fired from his position. Admiral Holsey must be reinstate as Southern Command.

Comments

Of course the narrative is, in your words,  out of kilter. These stunts are arranged to stir your brain, not to satisfy your intellect. It does not add up. Watch all the squirrels chase their tails. Watch the keyboard warriors running down rabbit holes.
 
If there were a straightforward story here they would not tell it. That each and every element is hopelessly out of kilter tells me that it likely never happened. At all. Just a story.
 
I keep coming back to the alleged survivors being sent back to home countries. We were so outraged by these fentanyl terrorists we were ready to kill. And tried to kill. And did kill their shipmates. The survivors we just send home?
 
Posted by: oldhippie | Dec 1 2025 19:14 utc | 163

 
An interesting and worthwhile speculation. I feel agreement in my gut. Let me add that there is also precedent for this way of war under Trump – when the US spirited a few crackers to Fordow, but no massive ordnance penetrators on a flyover bombing run as was reported before the war wound down.

Posted by: persiflo | Dec 1 2025 21:32 utc | 201

Seems likely these are CIA drug runners/merc forces.   The CIA has been involved for decades importing drugs into the US, and they’ve also wanted to coup Venezuela for a long time as well.  What are the chances the CIA cultivated a mercenary force of South American drug cartel criminals for these purposes, have been housing them in the US and are now considering using them against Trump to attempt to coup/punish him for stopping their war against Russia?  A 60’ go-fast skiff with 4 big gas guzzling outboards and 11 guys on board is not a commercial fishing vessel, that it only has a 250 mile range and so can’t run strait 1,300 miles to the US doesn’t matter as there is an nearby island chain that goes to the US right offshore.  Before the election news articles were appearing regarding tren de Araugua taking over a hotel in Colorado and some similar action in other parts of the country.  A federal judge in New Mexico was housing and supplied weapons to some of these tren de Araugua gangsters.  These are CIA democrat hired mercenaries that they are too timid to use outright just yet.  Trump is showing the CIA not to mess around, that is why he hired Hegseth.  Now, looking for the end impeachment attempt, congress will go after Trump for murdering innocent helpless fishermen and after some deeper digging everyone will become aware that what we actually have had going on is a deep state coup in the works using their drug ruining criminals mercenaries.  Regular Americans are tired of seeing these games.  This will backfire on democrats as everything else has.

Posted by: DC | Dec 1 2025 21:33 utc | 202

“Be an adult. Be a human.” Posted by: LoveDumbass | Dec 1 2025 15:01 utc | 65 What the fuck are you talking about? You are one fucking arrogant asshole.
Posted by: canuk | Dec 1 2025 15:11 utc | 73
 
*******************
 
Thanks so much.
 
Message received – clearly understood.

Posted by: General Factotum | Dec 1 2025 21:35 utc | 203

The whole thing is illegal, starting from sanctioning another country because they own oil and we want it, to interfering in another country’s elections, to demanding another country’s president step down, to putting a bounty on his head, to putting up a blockade of warships around another country that has not threatened us, to bombing boats in the open sea, to making up a “drug war” on another country, to killing survivors of a bombed boat, to naming some random person the “president” of another country because the natives elected the “wrong guy”, to closing the airspace over another country…all the way to committing genocide, ethnic cleansing, and declaring the US the head of a new occupation force in a totally different country at the same time.
 
And it was just as illegal for Obama or Bush to do it as it is for Trump to do it.
 
Why nitpick about style points?  They all should be tried in the Hague, even the dead ones.

Posted by: teri | Dec 1 2025 21:35 utc | 204

For the utilitarian fans of murder on the high seas, a quote from “A Man for all Seasons”
 

  • William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
  • Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
  • William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
  • Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

Posted by: Caliman | Dec 1 2025 21:38 utc | 205

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2025 21:21 utc | 204
 
#####
 
I could be a Martian, and my points are still correct, and you would have no explanation except MAGA word salad.
 
You focus on the personal ostensibly because you cannot argue the merits of the facts.
 
Sad!

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 1 2025 21:41 utc | 206

Jesus Christ! Re DC “Seems likely these are CIA drug runners/merc forces.”
Ffs, if that’s your contention, you know what would be a great little bit of ammunition to support it for Mr.s Hegseth and Trump? Confessions and information from the damn so-called Merc forces!! So, arrest them, interrogate them, and follow the leads up to their masters. What do they do instead? Kill them and destroy the evidence! 

Posted by: Caliman | Dec 1 2025 21:46 utc | 207

Since USA is a lawless regime with no rule of law whatsoever, and Hegsehth eill never face justice (exactly the same impunity that happened to all other THOUSANDS of war criminals in Washington DC over the past decades), I will say this and will repeat this in front of a judge of the UN’s ICJ: mankind has the right to terminate Hegseth’s life, and the person that fires that bullet (or wields that knife) deserves a statue and an international peace prize.

I no longer have any patience left for mainstream hypocrisy or political correctness.
Kill them all, yes, but in Washington DC!

And after mankind has been saved, the USA terrorist/nazi/genocidal regime must be broken apart, de-colonized, neutered, stripped off of its nuclear weapons, de-militarized, and separated into at least 5 or 6 smaller countries, all led exclusively by descendents of North America’s natives.

And let’s not even allow a tomb for rhe war criminals. Let Bush, Obama, Trump Biden, the Clintons, Nuland, the Kagans, Bolton, etc, all be forgotten together in a mass grave!

There is zero hate in my speech. There is exclusive the same drive for Justice as the one that the World War 2 heroes (mainly Soviets/Russians) had when they realized they had to completely defeat Hitler’s regime.
USA is the new Hitler’s regime of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Anti-imperialists of the world, unite!
And to the VERY FEW decent people in USA, you either act in the face of evil, or you are part of the problem.

Posted by: Zé Oliveira Vidal | Dec 1 2025 21:46 utc | 208

You people attacking Hegseth are all out to lunch on this. If the US military is blowing up drug smuggling boats, and the murderous criminals in them, I’m all for it. I’d like to see the US military storm into Mexico and Columbia too and wipe out every drug, sex trafficking and coyote cartel that exists. What is wrong with you people?! You DESTROY evil and remove it from the environment you fools. There are no “rules of war”. You decimate your enemy in whatever way you can. There is nothing proper or organized about violence/war. If you are being attacked or threatened, you either destroy or get destroyed. This is like the British acting as gentlemen on the battlefield and following a protocol. Silly fools.

Posted by: aelfwed | Dec 1 2025 21:48 utc | 209

Sounds like  Gaza on the high seas to me. 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Dec 1 2025 21:49 utc | 210

Military Situation In Ukraine On December 1, 2025 (Maps Update)
 
https://southfront.press/military-situation-in-ukraine-on-december-1-2025-maps-update/

  • Russian strikes destroyed targets in Sumy, Mykolaiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhzhia, Odesa regions;
  • The Russian offensive continues in the Seversk, Pokrovsk, Kupyansk, Dnipropetrovsk, and Zaporizhzhia directions;
  • Russian forces took control of Klinovoe;
  • Russian forces advanced in the Guliaipole direction;
  • Russian forces advanced in Stepnogorsk town;
  • Russian forces advanced in Volchansk town;
  • Ukrainian losses amounted to approximately 1,415 troops over the past 24 hours.

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 1 2025 21:53 utc | 211

Posted by: DC | Dec 1 2025 21:33 utc | 207I am not sure Trump has stopped the CIA war against Russia..
 
https://vtforeignpolicy.com/2025/12/nato-threats-toward-world-war-preemptive-strikes-on-russia/

Posted by: snake | Dec 1 2025 21:54 utc | 212

Maybe 11 people are needed after all: the goalie, the back four, the midfield four and the front two, or maybe that is old hat these days and they go for a 4-3-1-2 formation, with a false number 9 or 10.
 
Yep, definitely need an entire soccer team to protect a drugs consignment…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 1 2025 21:56 utc | 213

Troll brigade, is that you?

Posted by: persiflo | Dec 1 2025 21:59 utc | 214

@ RepublicofScotland,
damn it. I watched that whole video again and felt as sick as I did the first time I saw all those years ago.  I think this was one that Manning sent to Wikileaks.  I remember that most of the people I worked with were quite comfortable with the killing as I am sure Tobias Cole is, I can imagine him masturbating to it.
 
As cruel and disgusting it is I cannot blame the Army pilots for doing what they did.  They had a mission and they performed it professionally and quite competently.  They did not go out to look for people to kill but were sent there by men in suits with red or blue ties.  Even sweet old ladies like Madeleine Albright who stated that the premature deaths of about a half million Iraqis “was worth it” did their part to make that all happen.  
 
Seal Team Six seems to be getting the credit for killing the small boat crews and I wonder how they feel about that.  One thing is killing an old asset like Osama bin Laden but unknown guys on speedboats.  You gotta really like your job to do something like that I guess.

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 1 2025 22:01 utc | 215

smartfox @205:

Regardless of what they were, the method used was not in accordance with the law, and justifications based on unproven claims are of no help.Those who claim to be hunting lawbreakers must not behave like gangsters, otherwise they are just as bad, regardless of their excuses.

 
Agreed, but going all hyperbolic on the issue gets us nowhere… well, it could get Team Blue elected next term in the US if the TDS can be spread around far enough, but that is exactly the nowhere I am talking about. Getting too fixated on this being about Trump disguises (deliberately) the fact that the Empire has been killing civilians for a very long time. Blowing up some obvious criminals without due process is definitely wrong, but it is small potatoes in the Empire’s operations. With that fact hidden and Trump hysteria maxed out then it is a near certainty that the electorate will be volleyed back into the Establishment court, fully under control. The disruption caused by the Sanders’ campaign back in `15-`16, and the electorate causing the Trump upsets of the Establishment’s plans will be wasted rather than being the springboard for further (and better) upsets to the Empire’s plans. 
 
 
Hate Trump all you want, just steer clear of the hysteria the dembots are trying to create.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2025 22:03 utc | 216

Posted by: DC | Dec 1 2025 21:33 utc | 207I am not sure Trump has stopped the CIA war against Russia..Posted by: snake | Dec 1 2025 21:54 utc | 217
 
He didn’t. As he said: I’m out, but I’m selling everything to Europe, and what they do with it is their business.
He thinks this will allow him to cover his back, still make money, and circumvent Russia’s response.
However, this fails on two counts: Europe has no more money, and America will have to pay for it anyway.

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 1 2025 22:03 utc | 217

The USA is lucky the Sandinistas didn’t have access to those fastboats fromVenezuela. I think it was only a two day’s march back in the 80’s to the homeland. Even with marching powder. Just think of the threat they posed!

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 1 2025 22:03 utc | 218

What did POTUS, supreme commander of the US armed forces state – more than once:
 
“Kill them all.”

Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 1 2025 22:07 utc | 219

Was macht Trump, wenn das oberste Gericht sagt, die Zölle sind rechtswidrig?

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 1 2025 22:07 utc | 220

aelfwed | Dec 1 2025 21:48 utc | 214
 
Observantly doesn’t know its empire building skills.

Posted by: dobby | Dec 1 2025 22:10 utc | 221

What will Trump do if the Supreme Court rules that the tariffs are illegal?

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 1 2025 22:10 utc | 222

I hope Trump doesn’t make Nixon’s mistake and attempt to coverup for Hegseth. 
Trump may have to have Hegseth arrested. 

Posted by: Fredrick | Dec 1 2025 22:24 utc | 223

Dean Baker over at Counterpunch points out the USG provides untold billions, hundreds of billions, in profits annually to Big Pharma thru intellectual property law.  Plus all the “economic” activity that goes into enforcement, like Harvard Biz and Law School justifying this gigantic swindle, all the policing and cops and prisons, and the well-trained priests who pour the baptismal waters and incense and incantations on the waste and deceit.
 
The is the legal drug trade. The legal drug trade also includes all the alcohol and tobacco addiction. It is also used to restrict medical supplies to countries like Iran, VZ and NK. and Cuba.
 
Who is responsible for the opioid, alcohol and tobacco addictions? The exact same people running crack and fentanyl into the US, the same people running global heroin trade out of Vietnam, Afghanistan, and other places.
 
The same motherfucking scum rationalizing the incineration of peasant fishermen, migrants, or your asset drug dealers, whoever they are, with your bullshit about engine sizes and number of people on board. despicable.
 
It was the state that created the opioid epidemic, ongoing and growing, with the Obama DOJ, all of Congress, SCOTUS, and all of the medical establishment behind it. all institutions of business and law supporting the profitability of dumping oxy on the Campbell’s soup eating trash.
 
And that’s who runs ALL the drug trade in the US. and Trump is just one of them.

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 22:30 utc | 224

Any whistleblowers will be hunted down, interrogated,  indicted, tried, convicted and imprisoned like John Kiriakou

Posted by: nwwoods | Dec 1 2025 22:35 utc | 225

When I get caught smoking meth, why can’t I blame Venezuela or Mexico or China? why doesn’t the judge swallow that pile of bullshit? 

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 22:35 utc | 226

“Roman soldier, do not defraud anyone of anything,” John the Baptist, per the gospel of Luke.

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 22:41 utc | 227

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 22:35 utc | 231
Who was FDR’s maternal grandfather, and where did he earn his fortune?
Where’s my vape?!?!

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 1 2025 22:41 utc | 228

Hate Trump all you want, just steer clear of the hysteria the dembots are trying to create.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2025 22:03 utc | 221
 
What has our psychopathic liar to say? Fallacies and only fallacies. And a conspiracy theory. Why to hate Trump? It is completely not necessary. His maga base is disintegrating, slowly, but disintegrating. He showed that he is a liar, that he did not keep what he promised (Epstein, JFK, peace, etc.), that he is surrounded by neocons like during his first term.
 
And well, the most stupid trumptards try to save him by insulting those not agreeing. Oh well, stupidity is also part of humanity. And if someone is manifesting hysteria, it is you and only you.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 1 2025 22:43 utc | 229

In response to Doctor Eleven 47 & Tom_Q_Collins @ 53,
 
Oh come on, you guys gave me quite a chuckle. Me, support Trump? I don’t give a rat’s ass about Trump — I rather hold to Putin’s old position, that the US presidency has largely become irrelevant to the decision making process, and that little changes based on the individual ostensibly in charge. Rather, it’s more likely that the individual gets successfully coerced to support pre-made decisions by the system. As Putin jokingly quipped, paraphrasing, they “get visited by men in suits and told exactly how it is.”
 
But, one would have to be blind not to see that, in some circles, it has become open season to criticize Trump and his associates for well-established US behavior. It’s not that extrajudicial killings are bad, or that the US have been behaving like a rogue state the past century — no, it’s that at this “unique” point in history, a “psychopath” is in charge. Otherwise, blowing up random people would be legally and morally justifiable as per usual. Perhaps, under a more competent administration, there wouldn’t be any survivors to commit war crimes against?
 
I don’t know — I read the OP, the accompanying article, and felt that the underlying sentiment was that the US was acting within their rights, rather than continuing to abuse their position as world hegemon during a gradually eroding unipolar moment, but that a niche clause in this specific instance, due to a specific individual in a position of power, makes it problematic. Such a position clashes with my world-view, not because I support Trump, but because I oppose unipolarity.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 1 2025 22:55 utc | 230

The “war crime” isn’t the real issue here. The alleged crime is being used as a pretext to encourage and condition members of the U.S. military to disobey orders.
 
To wit, notice how Western Media is framing their argument about the alleged war crime committed by SecDef Hegseth and U.S. Special Forces:
 

  • Unlawful Orders and Killing Shipwrecked Boat Strike Survivors: An Expert Backgrounder, Dec 1 2025, just security.org: “U.S. special forces’ allegedly killed two shipwrecked survivors who were clinging to the wreckage of their vessel on Sept. 2, 2025.” 

 
Why? Because the “shipwrecked survivors” narrative plucks at the heartstrings of the public. The second reason is that it’s easy to link “shipwrecked survivors” with the following passage from the DoW manual:
 

  • 18.3.2.1 Clearly Illegal Orders to Commit Law of War Violations: The requirement to refuse to comply with orders to commit law of war violations applies to orders to perform conduct that is clearly illegal or orders that the subordinate knows, in fact, are illegal. For example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal.

 
Again, I posit that the alleged crime committed by SecDef Hegseth and U.S. Special Forces is being used as a pretext to continue encouraging and conditioning members of the U.S. military to disobey orders, a campaign that was started a few weeks ago by a group of 6 Democratic lawmakers who encouraged troops to do the same.
 
The question is why.

Posted by: Q | Dec 1 2025 22:59 utc | 231

Defenders of drug running cartels have no standing.  These are not innocent fishermen equipped with quad 330 hp outboards capable of 50mph in the open ocean, these are merchants of death, sailors and soldiers in the army of the cartels.
As such, as soldiers and sailors in the service of the armed military wings of the cartels they are subject to attack without notice, as are all combatants.
If they wish to surrender then they need make a universal sign of surrender, or face the music.
Carrying 11 soldiers on a ocean capable vessel means nothing.  These soldiers could have in transit to another cartel base, or to man another cartel vessel at pirates cove.
Death on the battle field is a lonely hunter.

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 23:00 utc | 232

We not only learn for our war-kill progressive that we have no control  but never forget the past that they manipulated and lied to get where they are today. The link is a banned historian who has two other channels. Isn’t that what real history is especially revision history escape from the so called truth media or maybe the half truth but to find the truth?  look everywhere that’s the key…                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            https://odysee.com/@truthhertzradio:b                        

Posted by: dobby | Dec 1 2025 23:01 utc | 233

tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 17:16 utc | 123
*** Strike them [drug cartels/runners] hard and everywhere ***
 
 
Langley?
 

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 1 2025 23:01 utc | 234

Posted by: DC | Dec 1 2025 21:33 utc | 207
 
Yes, that theory at least fits all the observable evidence.  It’s called science.  The known facts fit neatly.

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 1 2025 23:02 utc | 235

Posted by: DC | Dec 1 2025 21:33 utc | 207
 
Now, like the failed Bay of Pigs we can wait for another Presidential assassination.  Black Ops will always be Black Ops.
 
I wonder if Trump and Putin didn’t make a trade in Anchorage, Ukraine for Venezuela.
 
Both  Nations are each others borders, seems a right fair exchange.

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 1 2025 23:08 utc | 236

Oh, and in response to Doctor Eleven@48,
 
You raise the question of whether the victims of US strikes can be considered regular armed forces engaged in armed conflict, arguing that they are not. Then ask me to “try logic sometime.” To quote myself from the post you’re replying to:

to even treat them as enemy combatants in the first place is the big open question

So obviously, we are in agreement here. If they aren’t enemy combatants in the first place, then attempting to kill them in the first place is the actual crime here. Failing to do so on the first strike, does not make the second attempt “worse” in any way, and the absence of a second attempt does not validate the first.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 1 2025 23:11 utc | 237

Nice try.  When it is constitutional and against an enemy, foreign or domestic, ANY citizen soldier is going to bring it to you, make no mistake.

Posted by: 5jumpchump | Dec 1 2025 23:13 utc | 238

@ tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 23:00 utc | 237
 
Please could you at least be consistent, because suddenly, out of nowhere, we apparently have 11 “soldiers” on board a civilian speedboat.
 
Did you think that one up yourself? Because any worthwhile narrative generator would immediately see the lack of credibility there.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 1 2025 23:13 utc | 239

Posted by: Naive | Dec 1 2025 22:43 utc | 234
 
A little less hysteria actually aids understanding.
As I understand it, William Gruff is simply pointing out that problems also have a source that is worth considering, rather than focusing on the consequences.
Whether it’s Trump, Biden, Obama, Bush… in the end, the US wages war without having been attacked or threatened. The concept is a military sector whose sheer size is supposed to guarantee a global monopoly on the use of force in order to modify ownership constellations. 
Not every stronger party takes from the weaker ones. Every philosophy should be derived from empathy so as not to lead to selective perception and double standards. But instead, we see legalised versions of Al Capone and Joseph Bonanno hypocritically acting from North America to Europe to Israel.
 

Posted by: BlindSpot | Dec 1 2025 23:14 utc | 240

Don’t f*<^ing confuse geopolitics for the US armed forces ability to accomplish the mission.  From old soldier to new recruit.
/\|

Posted by: 5jumpchump | Dec 1 2025 23:18 utc | 241

In response to teri@209,
 
That about sums it up. Excellently phrased. Cheers.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 1 2025 23:19 utc | 242

[…] Maybe it’s because US law is crazy, and makes crazy things legal(or illegal) but thats for the lawyers to decide.  How can a front line soldier do that without sticking his own neck out? […]Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 1 2025 16:36 utc | 108

 It doesn’t take a law degree to fathom that following orders to deliberately kill civilians is a guaranteed ticket to the gallows if ever there is a reckoning. What it does take is a conscience and self-image of not being an outright asshole. 

[…] Mr. Trump is now striking at the apparatus of the CIA’s extra-constitutional power and influence: […]Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 1 2025 18:02 utc | 137

 Thanks for the comedy relief, Merv. 

[…] listen up now, DJT has ordered zero extrajudicial killings of American citizens. […]Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 20:35 utc | 188

 Oh, we are listening up, tobias. Wouldn’t want to miss your war crimes apologia. Coz, even worse, DJT has ordered dozens of extrajudicial killings of other nations’ citizens. 

[…] The drug boat strikes were legitimate acts of war against a foreign adversary – the drug cartels and their soldiers and sailors.  Totally legit in every single way. […]

 Big tip if you don’t want to come across as an ignorant twat: Re-read B’s post. The only institution in the US with authority to declare war is the US congress. Provide a link to where this declaration has been made. I’ll wait. 

[…] Lets not confuse this action with the clear violations of international law in Gaza, or the Philippines or in Japan or in Germany or in Russia during WWII.Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 16:55 utc | 116

 Executing civilians on the open sea is a clear violation of international law, regardless of whether your war crime aficionado brain is able to comprehend this. Quote from the maritime-terror Fuhrer: Trump argued the vessels posed a deadly threat and framed the operations as necessary to protect Americans, calling the missions lethal but justified. “You can see the boats,” he said. “You can see the drugs in the boats and each boat is responsible for killing 25,000 Americans.”   (Can’t post link to Fox News story as B’s filter won’t allow it through) Well, if that is so, and the drugs are clearly visible and identifiable, where the fuck are the pictures? Cole, Gruff, anyone one of you murder on the high seas fanbois, got links?  I guess not: The Pentagon has refused to release the identities of those killed or evidence of drugs on board.    (Can’t post link to Fox News story as B’s filter won’t allow it through) Oh well, lucky for the Pentagon there are always plenty of dimwitted killem-all enthusiasts out there, hanging out at blogs whitewashing obvious US war crimes, who don’t need no evidence. The word of a psycho killer with christian tattoos on the chest, a true Jesus of our time, is enough for these lip biters to know the US military is again, like it has throughout its satanic history, doing gods work.
Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 1 2025 23:16 utc | 246

Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 1 2025 23:22 utc | 243

As expected, you dodged my question. Typical.
 
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2025 19:31 utc | 173
 
______
 
Oh, you mean your asking me if I took my “marching orders” from the presstitute media? I didn’t think that cheap pot shots required s response.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 1 2025 23:23 utc | 244

For easier reading, lemmy repeat this:
 

[…] Lets not confuse this action with the clear violations of international law in Gaza, or the Philippines or in Japan or in Germany or in Russia during WWII.Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 16:55 utc | 116

 
Executing civilians on the open sea is a clear violation of international law, regardless of whether your war crime aficionado brain is able to comprehend this.
 
Quote from the maritime-terror Fuhrer: Trump argued the vessels posed a deadly threat and framed the operations as necessary to protect Americans, calling the missions lethal but justified. “You can see the boats,” he said. “You can see the drugs in the boats and each boat is responsible for killing 25,000 Americans.”    (Can’t post link to Fox News story as B’s filter won’t allow it through)
 
Well, if that is so, and the drugs are clearly visible and identifiable, where the fuck are the pictures? Cole, Gruff, anyone one of you murder on the high seas fanbois, got links?
 
I guess not: The Pentagon has refused to release the identities of those killed or evidence of drugs on board.    (Can’t post link to Fox News story as B’s filter won’t allow it through)
 
Oh well, lucky for the Pentagon there are always plenty of dimwitted killem-all enthusiasts out there, hanging out at blogs whitewashing obvious US war crimes, who don’t need no evidence. The word of a psycho killer with christian tattoos on the chest, a true Jesus of our time, is enough for these lip biters to know the US military is again, like it has throughout its satanic history, doing gods work.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 1 2025 23:27 utc | 245

Given you only have to go on Google search or have a PC for them to know the coordinates of where you live, and if you have a cell phone both Google and Apple know where you are located in real time as well, then in just having an email addresses they can enter and read any client’s information, and they have details of your bank account if you are registered on Google play store/Apple Itunes:  how long do you think it will be before the US state decides someone is guilty of something or another and a drone or small missile heads towards the location of an individual deemed guilty? Or if you haven’t paid a bill then your bank account is confiscated because it is seen as the states money as well as it is with some country’s foreign investment funds?  Not far off is it? Orwell turns in his grave. 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Dec 1 2025 23:31 utc | 246

Again, I posit that the alleged crime committed by SecDef Hegseth and U.S. Special Forces is being used as a pretext to continue encouraging and conditioning members of the U.S. military to disobey illegal orders, a campaign that was started a few weeks ago by a group of 6 Democratic lawmakers who encouraged troops to do the same. The question is why.
Posted by: Q | Dec 1 2025 22:59 utc | 236
 
Fixed for you.
 
Why? Because they are committing crimes and assassinatios like the gangsters they are.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 1 2025 23:36 utc | 247

Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 1 2025 20:39 utc | 191
*** Still got ~1800km to cover, getting close to 4 days of constant cruising, food and fresh water for eleven people, refuelling supplies; pretty soon we’re getting to the point when there is no actual room for a profitable drugs payload. ***
 
Yes but there’s an answer to that suggested problem ….. in the darkness far out at sea they meet up with a Hamas stealth submarine from the secret Iranian naval base in Cuba, to take on more fuel and supplies. 
 

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 1 2025 23:37 utc | 248

I was kind of looking forward to a Venezuela thread. This one sure is a big disappointment. 
 
Nothing about Venezuela, Nothing about Maduro and his presidency, almost zero about the real reasons for this complete arrogant war crime and lots and lots of fringe “debate” about justification for murder .
 
 Reminds me of all the hundreds of posts on the bullshit peace initiative.
 
 

Posted by: arby | Dec 1 2025 23:38 utc | 249

It might not be perfect, but America is still the best game in town.  
“I might not agree with you, but I’ll die for your right to say it.”
Maybe I’m just old fashioned. 
BUT… this undermining of the constitutional, lawful and essential chain of command necessary to our freedom and way of life is beyond the pale.  Obviously I am an American citizen and WTF?  Dial it back for all our sakes!!!  Enjoy what we have, don’t destroy it (improvements are always welcome).
Sincerely, 
/\|

Posted by: 5jumpchump | Dec 1 2025 23:40 utc | 250

“When I get caught smoking meth, why can’t I blame Venezuela or Mexico or China? why doesn’t the judge swallow that pile of bullshit? ”
Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 22:35 utc | 231
 
For the same reason you can’t just walk down the street and murder someone because you suspect them of being a criminal.
 
It’s because you don’t follow the “international rules based order”. Or it’s because you are just an ordinary US citizen in which case you don’t have impunity from the law no matter what, nor will you have a presidential pardon if you are not a friend, family member, billionaire, or someone on your side of politics.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Dec 1 2025 23:40 utc | 251

now back to watching Berletic on the BS peace initiative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVKcjUQN0Fk
 

Posted by: arby | Dec 1 2025 23:41 utc | 252

Repeat after me, ” There is no international law, there never was.” 

Posted by: The Painter | Dec 1 2025 23:45 utc | 253

Maybe if people just looked at the three Abrahamic religions and can see how much they compare to the original story Isis,, she was the original virgin that bore Horus from a fake penis from Seth parts that represent all obelisks all around the world even in cemeteries you see everywhere. Open your eyes people, empire building whilst lying to everyone from books and tax free screaming places. Ya, it’s a mind f”ck.

Posted by: dobby | Dec 1 2025 23:45 utc | 254

You are not cynical enough. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKzmlP1dj5c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpx_SH5QSE
These are two trailers for the movie “Body Brokers”. Drug treatment is such a HUGE business in the US.
 
Drug rehab recruiters from California fuel concerns over ‘body brokers’ in Hawaii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8okeYmgf2AY
It’s a growing market. and all kinds of drug-dealing, prostitution and other crimes are run out of treatment centers and “recovery homes”. Drug addicts are extremely vulnerable because they’ve already been totally manipulated. Just search “unregulated recovery houses in Florida”, for a flavor. What you probably won’t see is how much the cops and other authorities are involved, the same folks who use women’s prisons as private brothels. 
 

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 23:46 utc | 255

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 1 2025 16:23 utc | 101
 
I have to disagree with this all-encompassing post, karlof1.  Perhaps this isn’t really you; I hope that is the case.
 
Scott Ritter with Judge Napolitano just now:  besides stating clearly the law in this case, he has also said that calling the Department of Defense  the  War Department is not something  Trump can do.  I was happy to hear that.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey_zCsoFeAo
 

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2025 23:47 utc | 256

In response to Naive@252,
 
Looking forward to US servicemen disobeying all illegal orders exclusively, and only carrying out legal ones. US military footprint in the world at large should become completely invisible as a result.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 1 2025 23:47 utc | 257

But instead, we see illegalised versions of Al Capone and Joseph Bonanno hypocritically acting from North America to Europe to Israel.
Posted by: BlindSpot | Dec 1 2025 23:14 utc | 245
 
Fixed for you.
 
A little less hysteria actually aids understanding.
 
Who is going hysterical about his maga hero? Who is a psychopath?
As I understand it, William Gruff is simply pointing out that problems also have a source that is worth considering, rather than focusing on the consequences.
 
Are you calling crimes and assassinations… problems?! He is only trying to whitewash his psychopathic idole by insulting the truth and those who dare to not agree with him.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 1 2025 23:49 utc | 258

Posted by: arby | Dec 1 2025 23:41 utc | 257
whether Ukraine or Israel, the West only ever delivers bullshit soundbite peace initiatives. Russia continues to do what Russia does knowing this full well, so will China and a swathe of other countries.
The entire point of the media is to get the dogs to fight over the one bone, and many fall for it every time with endless speculation. When the dogs fight they don’t notice who threw the bone. It’s easy to get the dogs to do the bidding and divisive play of the leaders….
 
 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Dec 1 2025 23:50 utc | 259

Repeat after me, ” There is no international law, there never was.” 
Posted by: The Painter | Dec 1 2025 23:45 utc | 258
 
Tell it to all western leaders.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 1 2025 23:50 utc | 260

a Hamas stealth submarine from the secret Iranian naval base in Cuba, to take on more fuel and supplies.

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 1 2025 23:37 utc | 253
 
Ah, yes, I had forgotten about those, thank you for the reminder.
 
Of course, if you and me are aware of such dastardly schemes that threaten the US way of life, motherhood, apple pie and cupcakes, it is kind of curious how the vast panoply of US ’intelligence’ services don’t know about them…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 1 2025 23:52 utc | 261

Posted by: The Painter | Dec 1 2025 23:45 utc | 258
 
There are many international laws. The problem is not that, it is that rogue states don’t follow them despite preaching that they do. And even if  people like Netanyahu get reported to the ICJ for war crimes, the same rogue states argue that the Netherlands should be invaded to stop any prosecution.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Dec 1 2025 23:56 utc | 262

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 1 2025 23:00 utc | 237
I support the “drug cartels” killing every person up the “kill chain” on this pile of fascist shit. 
 
by some kind of miracle the same people committing genocide in Gaza in the guise of racial purity who also installed a Nazi regime in Kiev and are reviving Japanese nationalism for more Chinese killing, somehow, in the global drug war the United States runs, somehow, the US is protecting the homeland by bombing “drug dealers” in the open seas?
 
as part of open war plans for VZ’s oil?
 
uh huh, and Biden was blowing up Chinese war balloons. and Iran is about to nuke Tel Aviv. and Assad gassed his own people. and Sodom Hussein was bad too. and Hamas practices rape and torture routinely. and commie Mamdani and bomb more Somalis to stop them here by killing them there. and let’s bomb some more human rights into those filthy Sudanese while we are at it!

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 1 2025 23:57 utc | 263

US war crimes? So what. It’s what they always do-every time. They’ll be killing their own citizens on the streets soon, and like Israel’s genocide in Gaza / West Bank they will get away with that as well. They always do. No one in the US or outside will stop any of this. 

Posted by: Oldbert | Dec 2 2025 0:04 utc | 264

Looking forward to US servicemen disobeying all illegal orders exclusively, and only carrying out legal ones. US military footprint in the world at large should become completely invisible as a result.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 1 2025 23:47 utc | 262
 
I dunno, maybe it’s just me, but I actually don’t see a problem there…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 2 2025 0:04 utc | 265

@ Oldbert | Dec 2 2025 0:04 utc | 269
 
When Official USA starts killing its own citizens in the streets (en masse, not sporadically, as is the case now), the rest of the word will make popcorn.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 2 2025 0:08 utc | 267

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 1 2025 16:23 utc | 101
 
RE:   Americans have always been savages versus the natives but turned the equation around to justify their “noble deeds” for bringing them Christianity.
 
<<
 
It’s a bummer to see an MoA stalwart go so whole-hog on broad-brush generalizations.  
 
“Americans have always been savages”-?  Like all Americans-?  Like savagery has never happened worse than when Americans exhibit it-?
 
The knee-jerk emotionalism and lack of critical thinking devalue this thread.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Dec 2 2025 0:18 utc | 268

Posted by: dobby | Dec 1 2025 23:01 utc | 238
 
Thank you!

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 2 2025 0:24 utc | 269

I walk into the bar and wade through over 250 comments about a CONSUMPTION issue in the West that has been Hollywooded into a SUPPLY issue while the side discussion is about just what are the monotheistic exceptions to the Thou Shalt Not Kill moral.
 
Are you all entertained?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 2 2025 0:24 utc | 270

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Dec 1 2025 23:31 utc | 251
how long do you think it will be before the US state decides someone is guilty of something or another and a drone or small missile heads towards the location of an individual deemed guilty? Or if you haven’t paid a bill then your bank account is confiscated because it is seen as the states money as well as it is with some country’s foreign investment funds? Not far off is it? Orwell turns in his grave.
<= It might be revealing to inquire as to which part of the USA you are considered to be a valuable part of: The Executive Branch, The legislative branch, the judicial branch, the CIA branch, the State department branch, the Treasury Branch, the Indian Affairs Branch, The Transportation Branch, the War Department branch, the Agriculture Branch, the Energy Branch, the Environment Branch, The Federal Reserve branch.. The Forestry Branch, the Military industrial Complex branch,

Posted by: snake | Dec 2 2025 0:26 utc | 271

Americans have always been savages versus the natives but turned the equation around to justify their “noble deeds” for bringing them Christianity. […]
 
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 1 2025 16:23 utc | 101

 
Indeed, Karlof. The supposedly 2’000 year old story, one hand holds the bible, while the other holds a gun. There is no better example for just how barren and underdeveloped the minds of those religious proselytizers are than their approval, if not feverish endorsement of spreading the holy word with the sword.
 
Mind you, a quality not only found in many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians. Islam also has this overarching tendency to violently spread their ideology to kafirs, people like me who aren’t into Allah and his retarded message of Islam being the truth. And don’t get me started on the Jewish nut cases, the other Abrahamic sect with a permanent hard-on for killing non-believers.
 

[…] The entire federal apparatus is guilty of war crimes, even the courts. […]

 
Dead right. Top to bottom. In one of the previous threads I mentioned the structural framework upholding this Machiavellian order. Leaders commit the crimes while the states institutions, tasked with holding them to account, fall utterly flat, if not completely nose-dive on  their responsibility. Without their failures these grotesque disregards for human decency would not be allowed to occur.
 
The bottom layer in this pyramid of awfulness is however the electorate. If it weren’t for the disgustingly low level of intellect permeating our societies, ravaged by fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, wanna-be Gordon Gekko syndrome,  or whatever cause the short-circuiting of human decency in their collective brains, we wouldn’t have these psycho leaders, nor the absolutely useless legal fraternity tasked with enforcing common sense and fairness. 

[…] For those members of the military manning nuclear weapons, they must question the sanity of their supposed superiors who would be the ones to order their use. […]

 
Excellent point, Karlof. You’d think, we hope, they would question the sanity of their supposed superiors. But will they? I have my doubts. We are swimming in a sea of people conditioned to obedience. I step outside, leave my driveway and am immediately caught in a flock of mindless fellow humans acting like they are Ned Flanders incarnate. What ever the authorities say is right, it is right whatever authorities say. Never question, always follow rules. Their entire horizon is determined by council by-laws, MSM talk shows, the god botherers’ sermon, or whatever master their shriveled self-esteem has adopted as their master.
 
To join the army in the first place, means to surrender your conscience and common sense at the boom gate to the barracks. Very few, if any, will manage to smuggle some form of moral sense into the compound. We can count ourselves extremely lucky if this rare breed sits at the nuclear button when the order comes to press it.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 2 2025 0:39 utc | 272

  1. Salaam- tobiascole@116-UTC 16:55-you gotta believe Hegseth,he won’t lie,after he’s a senior in the US government-secretary of war! Now take George jr, he did not lie either- did he? He too was high up in the US government – CiC! After all,the world were just  unable to locate Saddam’s WMD’s- they are there somewhere- “We know he have ’em, because we say he have em!”.If Pete says he did not,well he did NOT.

Posted by: 4q8 | Dec 2 2025 0:41 utc | 273

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 2 2025 0:24 utc | 274
We are only the sane people who know the truth, what happened to the rest?

Posted by: dobby | Dec 2 2025 1:00 utc | 274

Well, you’ve really jumped in on this one ain’t guv?
Despite your erudition, it is also a matter of gravest import that your average baby killing grunt NOT have the impetus to decide what is or isn’t an illegal order. It’s called hierarchy and its necessary for an effective military. And I say this as someone who was kicked out of the military for not taking orders.
Before you whine about Hegseth, Secretary of WAR, why not bleat about the Ukrainians who are several rungs further down the pit of hell when it comes to war crimes?
I’ve been reading you for over a decade and this is the most disappointing screed you’ve ever penned. Do not advocate for sedition in my country’s army. You can blame yourself for electing the leaders of your country if you feel led astray. I swear every decent analyst has suddenly gone to lala land.

Posted by: whocanibenow | Dec 2 2025 1:05 utc | 275

whocanibenow | Dec 2 2025 1:05 utc | 280
 
Another false builder.

Posted by: dobby | Dec 2 2025 1:10 utc | 276

It’s a bummer to see an MoA stalwart go so whole-hog on broad-brush generalizations.   “Americans have always been savages”-?  Like all Americans-?  Like savagery has never happened worse than when Americans exhibit it-? The knee-jerk emotionalism and lack of critical thinking devalue this thread.
Posted by: steel_porcupine | Dec 2 2025 0:18 utc | 274

 
“Americans have always been savages”-?  Like all Americans-? – Affirmative. A vast majority, Dems or Reps, vote into office, most often repeatedly, clear as day psychopathic and soul crushing individuals who have no compunction to wipe out anyone in the way of the empire spreading its hellish tentacles. 
 
Like savagery has never happened worse than when Americans exhibit it-?” –  We are commenting in a thread dedicated to yet another obvious war crime by Americans? No” Why then your surprise that people aren’t addressing other nation’s savagery. Could it be you are trying to ricochet the justified criticism of US imperial monstrosities onto actors irrelevant in the context at hand?
 
“The knee-jerk emotionalism” – Thats right, lets not get passionate about the US military again blowing up civilians. Its unbecoming to a blog aiming to point out the deadly consequences of people like, erm, you, green lighting the murderous steps taken by empire to subdue countries they deem their backyard to shit on.
 
“lack of critical thinking devalue this thread” – How uncritical of us to be critical of demented megalomaniac Fuhrers wanting to intimidate foreign governments by wholesale murdering anyone out in a speedboat thousands of miles from the nation they actually have the right to control.
 
In short, steel_porcupine, while I appreciate your thinking on other issues debated here at MoA, to take sides with the fucked up stance the Trump admin has adopted vis-à-vis its imperial Venezuelan ambitions, is not doing your persona any favor. Quite contrary. 

Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 2 2025 1:13 utc | 277

Truth?  Hmm.  What we have, or should have, is knowledge.  From a recent global research article on “drugs”
 
”“In my 30 year history in the Drug Enforcement Administration and related agencies, the major targets of my investigations almost invariably turned out to be working for the CIA.” (quoted in ‘Rogue State’ from a speech in Fordham University, also see the book by Peter Dale Scott ad Jonathan Marshall titled Cocaine Politics—Drugs, Armies and the CIA in Central America)”
 
Britain was the king of drug dealing re: the opium wars.  The US invaded Afghanistan to secure the opium trade.  Even Canadas PM Paul Martin CSL freighter named after his wife was found loaded with Cocaine.
 
Maybe the US needs to secure all the drug trade routes.  
B started this thread on “extrajudicial killings”. Does this exclude kingpins, which the US government is?

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 2 2025 1:23 utc | 278

“Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gave a spoken directive, according to two people with direct knowledge of the operation. “The order was to kill everybody,” one of them said.”
 
I don’t agree with strikes in international waters without a declaration of war, but these supposed two people with “direct knowledge?”
 
 Our media has lost all respect over the last few decades and I am unwilling to take their word for it.
 
 Produce these two people then I’ll listen. 

Posted by: Archetypex | Dec 2 2025 1:24 utc | 279

 Dec 2 2025 1:23 utc | 283
 
f’ck ya man we need to bring it to light for true history, empire building.

Posted by: dobby | Dec 2 2025 1:27 utc | 280

@ Archetypex | Dec 2 2025 1:24 utc | 284
 
Even without the two people and their claim, “kill them all” seems to be, with one apparent lapse in which survivors were recovered, the actual practice, especially once the “double taps” are factored in.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 2 2025 1:29 utc | 281

[…] I’ve been reading you for over a decade and this is the most disappointing screed you’ve ever penned. Do not advocate for sedition in my country’s army. […]
Posted by: whocanibenow | Dec 2 2025 1:05 utc | 281

 
You may have been reading MoA “for over a decade” but you certainly haven’t understood a word. May as well stop reading here and go back to zionist controlled ecosystems aligned with your understanding of right and wrong.
 
Your country’s army and misnomer-ed security services are the embodiment of war-hogs, mindless henchmen goose-stepping their way through human history in service of bankers, or as Smedley Butler said:
 
“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
 
If you are upset by this “most disappointing screed”, might be time for you stop reading and instead join the western values, ie rules based order administering US forces, apply for a role where you can push buttons that have drones fire hellfire missiles on suspect drug smuggling boats, killing everyone aboard, especially survivors of the first hit. You’ll sleep easier.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 2 2025 1:41 utc | 282

The latest twisting by Reuters
 
White House defends US attack on boat from Venezuela as lawful

The White House on Monday defended a U.S. admiral’s decision to conduct multiple strikes on an alleged Venezuelan drug-smuggling vessel in September, saying he had Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s authorization, even as critics questioned the legality of a strike on survivors.

 
Where does this rabbit hole lead? 
Does it overshadow Epstein? 
Does it help with Ukraine?
How about the ME?
Domestically?
 
What happens when this meme is transferred to America and Americans?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 2 2025 1:46 utc | 283

“there are other psychopaths who will follow illegal orders blindly. / Posted by: Naive | Dec 1 2025 17:51 utc | 134”
And others who will follow orders because they have to feed their families. The psychopaths climb the “sick society” ladder quickly. We have 2 problems : the psychopaths among us, and obedience. The psychopaths create a society of obedience (through poverty, low education, low morals).

Posted by: Asian Frog | Dec 2 2025 1:50 utc | 284

According to two unnamed high ranking sources…………..that is total MSM bull roar.
Sounds just like the Russiagate farce, and sounds like Hosley looking for an out, and another tell all book to be published in his soon to happen retirement (or court martial trial).  By the way an Obama/Bidenautopen appointee.
Arrest this seditionist.

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 2 2025 1:53 utc | 285

@273 Steel Porcupine
 
It’s a bummer to see an MoA stalwart go so whole-hog on broad-brush generalizations.   “Americans have always been savages”-?  Like all Americans-?  Like savagery has never happened worse than when Americans exhibit it-? The knee-jerk emotionalism and lack of critical thinking devalue this thread.
 
You are basically saying that, yeah, a substantial number of very powerful Americans engage in really bad savagery.  It would be better if you stopped trying to defend the US and American citizens.  Worldwide hatred against Americans is increasing at a very fast pace.  No need for you to speed up the process of others hating the US and Americans.

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 2 2025 1:54 utc | 286

Posted by: Juan Moment | Dec 2 2025 1:13 utc | 282
 
RE:    Could it be you are trying to ricochet the justified criticism of US imperial monstrosities onto actors irrelevant in the context at hand?
 
<<
 
I hear what you’re saying, Juan Moment.
 
But it’s not as if the context at hand has happened in a vacuum, uniquely in 2025, and without historical precedent, at least concerning the historical precedent of foreign policy in the U.S.
 
Have we not had the examples of Saddam, of Qaddafi, of Assad to provide enough of the context at hand-?   And now there’s Maduro.  In an instant, it can be the Mullahs, too, but for whatever reason that’s on the down-low right now.
 
It’s not as if anybody on this thread has the memory of a gold fish.  We have been here many times.   See Saddam, Qaddafi & Assad.   It’s not as if DJT’s admin is engaged in something weirdly beyond the norm of U.S. foreign policy adventures & escapades.
 
To note the recurrence is not to endorse the adventures & escapades.
 
When it happened in the past, what was the meliorative solution-?

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Dec 2 2025 1:54 utc | 287

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 2 2025 1:29 utc | 286
 
When trying to shoot down missiles, aircraft or any other moving target, bracketing the target is a common tactic. Both shots were fired from long distance and were probably both in the air at the same time. Maybe someone has the launch and contact time data and can compute. That would tell us a lot.
 
 It may be true what you say, you may be right, but I’m not taking any medias word for it with weak sauce mysterious sources.
 
 Those days are over. If a media outfit wants me to listen to them they better have a whole lot better than anonymous sources.

Posted by: Archetypex | Dec 2 2025 1:57 utc | 288

@ 214 
 
I vote for using our military to destroy all drug cartels and human trafficking operations as well.
 
It is a clear and present danger to Estados Unidos. Anyone who says otherwise wants more innocents to suffer and is complicit in the growth and maintenance of dark money operations like the CIA.
 
There is no international law then when a country is getting destroyed and its people enslaved by these dark forces. 
 
However
 
Because we can not give our military, DOD DOW, or intelligence agencies the benefit of the doubt that they are not the ones actually permitting some cartels access to the American consumer or human traffickers access to entry, YOU would be the fool to trust these forces.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 2 2025 2:02 utc | 289

This was not a civilian fishing vessel, this was an armed cartel naval vessel, carrying 11 armed combatants, loaded with cocaine and ammo, on a mission to carry deadly cargo to a foreign nation (or on a charitable mission for the Red Cross headed for Haiti – ok, right got it now).
Here is fun fact for you folks crying about international law (honored only in the breach) and the declaration of war.  Since WWII the US has never declared war against any foreign adversary.  So please stop with the declaration of war nonsense. Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghan – no declaration of war.
No one honors international law………see Gaza and the IDF.

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 2 2025 2:02 utc | 290

Posted by: whocanibenow | Dec 2 2025 1:05 utc | 280
 
You sound like a Zionazi Israeli war crime justifier. Of course soldiers should disobey blatantly illegal orders, I would argue even more so when not being given during a time of actual war, declared or not. This was not a battlefield situation we’re talking about. Your point is essentially that if Hegseth gave the command to a missile battalion or USAF fighter jet to destroy a known civilian airliner about to land at a foreign airport during peace time with zero demonstrable/provable threat contained therein, that they should simply do so without question. 
 
The other built-in stupidity of your point is that criminals in the US military (such as those exposed by the “Collateral Murder” video) are rarely if ever punished, let alone their superiors, when carrying out dastardly and cowardly acts of murder.  Criminals are in fact promoted while whistle blowers and those such as what you claim to be who disobeyed illegal orders are severely punished or even fragged. 
 
 

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 2 2025 2:04 utc | 291

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 2 2025 1:54 utc | 291
 
RE:   No need for you to speed up the process of others hating the US and Americans.
 
<<
 
Pointing out the fallacy of broad-brush generalizations & knee-jerk emotionalism, and interrogating them, will not speed up the process of others hating the US and Americans.
 

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Dec 2 2025 2:05 utc | 292

The CIA and the DEA have never played together in the Central American sandbox.  Two very different agendas.
The CIA needs to splintered, the sooner the better, before they murder another President – they already tried to murder this one twice.

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 2 2025 2:06 utc | 293

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 2 2025 2:02 utc | 295
1) You have no fuckin’ clue what you’re talking about and/or are just outright lying about who and what was on those boats. 
 
2) “Israel” (and the US) are not the same as “nobody” when talking about who and who doesn’t at least ATTEMPT to abide by the accepted laws of warfare.  So if you’re arguing “we” should be more like “Israel” maybe you could look into a stint in the IOF and conversion to (((chosen))) status? 
 
3) There are procedures on the books for dealing with alleged traffickers on the high seas, and a nation not at war doesn’t simply murder people far away from its shores when zero demonstrable threat is documented or proffered. 

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 2 2025 2:07 utc | 294

The same criminal intent and self-affirmed righteousness will be demonstrated at the macro level if/when nuclear-tipped missiles are to be fired. There’s not even the slightest questioning by most Western ‘leaders’ of “what if the enemy fires back to destroy all of us?” as though the us-versus-them dogma could be based on any logic. That is apparent in the UK’s puppet Zaluzhny advocating the ‘supply’ of nukes to the Ukraine regime for use preemptively as “defense” – those ghouls really mean it.

Posted by: norecovery | Dec 2 2025 2:08 utc | 295

What the six seditionists are fully committed to is to foment a ‘mutiny’ against this POTUS, because they suffer from TDS.
Folks suffering from TDS believe that any means are justifiable, even promoting a seditious mutiny against the authority of the DJT chain of command (and that already occurred in the first term when General Michael ‘Red’ Milley and SDOC Esper conspired to refuse a lawful presidential order to deploy 1000 Airborne MP’s from Fort Bragg to DC during the May/June Antifa/BLM insurrection – both should have been arrested and tried for treason, Milley later conspired with the CCP PA HQ to divulge military preparedness status to the Red Chinese, also a treasonous offense punishable by hanging).
The six have clearly been coached by Admiral Hosley and company, the coup is in the making…..

Posted by: tobias cole | Dec 2 2025 2:13 utc | 296

For anyone who doubts the veracity of the previous sources, here’s the official account.
 
https://thehill.com/homenews/5628447-defense-secretary-authorizes-drug-boat-strike/
 
Kegsbreath gave the kill order for the initial survivors.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 2 2025 2:18 utc | 297

When it comes to “disobeying illegal orders” most of the ones involved have no way to interpret those orders as illegal. They’re given a fire mission for something a long way away and attack the target. The NCO in charge of the crew will not know any of the details, neither will a lot of the officers above him.
 
 The missile crew isn’t included in a debate about what to do with details to make decisions, they execute their fire mission.
 
 The actual decision maker is the one holding responsibility, not the grunts. There’s no way to have an actual military force if all of the soldiers think every order is a debate.

Posted by: Archetypex | Dec 2 2025 2:20 utc | 298

 https://x.com/Acyn/status/1995272657450021198 Posted by: Menz | Dec 1 2025 11:06 utc | 13
Trump: “He was the president of the country, and people basically said he was a drug dealer because he was the president of the country”
Sound familiar?
 
 
 

Posted by: farm ecologist | Dec 2 2025 2:21 utc | 299

And it was just as illegal for Obama or Bush to do it as it is for Trump to do it.
 
Why nitpick about style points? They all should be tried in the Hague, even the dead ones.
 
Posted by: teri | Dec 1 2025 21:35 utc | 209

 
When you point out someone’s hypocrisy that’s called “whataboutism” and after that they can be as hypocritical as they like. Left wingers are experts at selective outrage and carefully not mentioning the obvious.
 
The “War on Drugs” was declared decades ago (by a Democrat if I recall) and all manner of nastiness has been perpetrated, primarily to maintain high profit margins for the pharmaceutical industry. There were many potential offramps, but none taken so far. Solving the problem by offering cheap, safer alternatives would take money away from the cartels very quickly with far less violence.
 
The least they could do is give those military guys some police officer training and teach them the importance of shouting, “Stop Resisting!” several times before murdering the suspect … doing it by the book is important.
 
Only the Libertarians can claim consistency because they were complaining equally as much when Bush and Obama were using the military to perform summary judgement executions. Indeed, I would say Obama was worse than Trump overall and it’s jaw dropping how much the media were willing to protect Obama from scrutiny. When you look at the very minimal evidence required to get you onto the “secret kill list” it’s amazing how few people even cared.
 
That said, Libertarians tend also to be consistent losers … and often subject to much stronger ridicule and outright hate than far less peaceful political affiliations. This would suggest that sometimes being the one guy doing the right thing doesn’t bring you many friends … when others are resorting to tribalism and blatant bias. Says something about humans huh?

Posted by: Tel | Dec 2 2025 2:21 utc | 300