Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 2, 2025
NATO Thinks Of ‘Pre-emptive Strikes’ Against Russia To ‘Defend’ Against Something That Did Not Happen

As it is becoming obvious that Ukraine is losing in the proxy war against Russia, the ideas European governments are are throwing around are getting more crazy.

Some are now eager to ‘pre-emptively’ attack Russia in ‘retaliation’ for alleged ‘hybrid attacks’ against European countries. Those ‘hybrid attacks’ are mostly pure fantasies.

Politico was first to report this nonsense:

Europe thinks the unthinkable: Retaliating against RussiaPolitico, Nov 27 2025
Countries are looking at joint offensive cyber operations and surprise military drills as Moscow steps up its campaign to destabilize NATO allies.

Russia’s drones and agents are unleashing attacks across NATO countries and Europe is now doing what would have seemed outlandish just a few years ago: planning how to hit back.

Ideas range from joint offensive cyber operations against Russia, and faster and more coordinated attribution of hybrid attacks by quickly pointing the finger at Moscow, to surprise NATO-led military exercises, according to two senior European government officials and three EU diplomats.

“The Russians are constantly testing the limits — what is the response, how far can we go?” Latvian Foreign Minister Baiba Braže noted in an interview. A more “proactive response is needed,” she told POLITICO. “And it’s not talking that sends a signal — it’s doing.”

What are the ‘hybrid attacks’ in question?

Russian drones have buzzed Poland and Romania in recent weeks and months, while mysterious drones have caused havoc at airports and military bases across the continent. Other incidents include GPS jamming, incursions by fighter aircraft and naval vessels, and an explosion on a key Polish rail link ferrying military aid to Ukraine.

The idea to ‘pre-empivly’ attack Russia comes from an Italian defense paper:

Last week, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto slammed the continent’s “inertia” in the face of growing hybrid attacks and unveiled a 125-page plan to retaliate. In it, he suggested establishing a European Center for Countering Hybrid Warfare, a 1,500-strong cyber force, as well as military personnel specialized in artificial intelligence.

To me that looks like someone is seeking additional NATO payments. Three days later a Italian NATO general furthered the idea:

Nato considers being ‘more aggressive’ against Russia’s hybrid warfare (archived) – Financial Times, Nov 30 025
Alliance’s top military officer says it could become proactive in dealing with Moscow threat

Nato is considering being “more aggressive” in responding to Russia’s cyber attacks, sabotage and airspace violations, according to the alliance’s most senior military officer.

Admiral Giuseppe Cavo Dragone told the Financial Times that the western military alliance was looking at stepping up its response to hybrid warfare from Moscow.

Some diplomats, especially from eastern European countries, have urged Nato to stop being merely reactive and hit back. Such a response would be easiest for cyber attacks where many countries have offensive capabilities but would be less easy for sabotage or drone intrusions.

Dragone said that a “pre-emptive strike” could be considered a “defensive action”, but added: “It is further away from our normal way of thinking and behaviour.”

He added: “Being more aggressive compared with the aggressivity of our counterpart could be an option. [The issues are] legal framework, jurisdictional framework, who is going to do this?”

Admiral Dragone is using Orwellian speech when he seems obviously lobbying for 1,500 NATO paid jobs in his home country.

One problem with this is that there is little evidence of any ‘hybrid attacks’.

Ursula von der Leyen was caught outright lying when her staff claimed that alleged Russian GPS distortion had prolonged a flight she was taking.

The alleged intrusion of Russian planes into Estonian airspace had turned out to be an innocent passage near an uninhabited island far from the coast.

The Dutch magazine Trouw has found that the myriad of recent drone panics had little to do with Russia.

Analysis sixty drone incidents in Europe: a lot of panic and little evidence (archived) – Trouw.nl

Machine translation:

Using the Dronewatch platform, Trouw mapped around sixty incidents involving drones in eleven European countries. These took place in the last three months. The conclusion: a lot of confusion and ambiguity and regular false alarms. For Russian involvement, as some authorities and experts point out, in the vast majority of cases no hard evidence has been provided.

In about forty incidents, the origin is still unclear or no evidence has been found for drones in the airspace. An example is Oslo, where drone reports shut down air traffic at the end of September, affecting thousands of travelers. The police did not find any confirmation afterwards that drones were actually flying. The same was true for reports at the airport of Swedish Gothenburg in early November.

In at least fourteen cases, it turned out to be something completely different afterwards. For example, people in Belgium mistook (small) planes and helicopters for drones, while the flying objects in South Limburg and Danish Billund were stars. The Norwegian police concluded that a suspicious ‘drone’ near an oil platform in the North Sea was probably a ship.

A number of times it has been established that drone flights were the work of a hobbyist or that it later turned out to be a tourist. In an incident in Warsaw where a drone flew over government buildings, Polish police picked up a Ukrainian and a 17-year-old girl from Belarus. There is no evidence of espionage.

This picture was published by media as showing alleged damage by an alleged explosion along a Polish rail line


bigger

According to the Polish outlet Super Express, a train driver travelling near the Mikołajówka (Mika) station informed dispatchers at 07:39 about irregularities in the rail infrastructure.

A preliminary inspection revealed that roughly one meter of track had been destroyed, forcing the train to stop. No passengers or crew members were injured.

Prime Minister Donald Tusk later underscored the gravity of the incident on X, stating:

“Blowing up the rail track on the Warsaw–Lublin route is an unprecedented act of sabotage targeting directly the security of the Polish state and its civilians. This route is also crucially important for delivering aid to Ukraine. We will catch the perpetrators, whoever they are.”

Nothing was ‘blown up’. What can be seen in the picture is not the result of an explosion. For comparison you might want to watch this attempt (vid) of using C-4 explosive to cut an I-beam. It is a VERY violent process. But the track ballast under the broken rail as well as the sleepers seem undisturbed and undamaged. The incident was most likely a brittle crack caused by fatigue. The rail was probably not firmly fixed on the sleepers and bent when trains were running over it. When that happens one time too many rails will break.

The alleged ‘hybrid attacks’ by Russia are over-hyped normal incidents with little if any relation to Russia. To use these as an excuse for ‘pre-emptive strikes’, be it cyber or whatnot, hardly makes such ‘defensive’.

And what, by the way, is Admiral Dragone planing to do if Russia hits back?

Comments

Admittedly, this is speculation, but it is reasonable to assume that Russia is currently working flat out on production and that my calculation is realistic.
Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 16:37 utc | 502
 
I’d say that if they did 60, total, in this last year is not half bad
 
It’s a big piece of engineering and no more priority than the su-34
 
Maybe ramp it up to 100 a year tops with full production line and 2 or 3 shifts
 
Hardly one per day
 
(i used a proxy of 1 su-34 = 4 or 5 Oreshniks, but all guesses are just guesses)

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 3 2025 16:47 utc | 501

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 16:47 utc | 504
 
Agreed on number of hypersonics, but you can close a harbor with just a sunken ship…

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 3 2025 16:49 utc | 502

Are we overlooking all those sea-based Zircons, that are already out there, somewhere?

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 16:51 utc | 503

Ursula’s plan is genuinely INSANE
The EU will hand over €90 billion, use its own budget as collateral to borrow more, then lend stolen Russian assets to Ukraine
‘Ukraine has to pay back this loan if and when Russia pays reparations’
She knows this will never happen

https://t.me/rtnews/123719
 
You have to be really terrified to come up with something as insane as this.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 3 2025 16:53 utc | 504

‘This is Nothing Short of Piracy. How Might He Respond?’
 
https://x.com/bears_with/status/1996091267139469478
 
“Why did Putin just give Ukrainian pirates a warning to stop? As soon as the US got its first navy, it stopped negotiating with the Barbary pirates and attacked their ports…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Dec 3 2025 16:56 utc | 505

There will be no swarms of hundreds of kinzhals
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 16:47 utc | 504
 
Bad example. Kishals are shot down by ships. And Odessa was deliberately attacked only lightly because of the civilian freighters from other countries.
But for the land-based self-propelled guns, we should expect at least 40 to exist, and it doesn’t take too long to reload.
Europe’s fighting spirit is likely to have waned after the first salvo. Volunteers step forward: who wants to be the first target?

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 16:57 utc | 506

I think Putin means that if attacked, Russia will take out the leaders of the aggressor, thus there won’t be anyone to negotiate with. He’s warning them that they will be targeted first.
Posted by: norecovery | Dec 3 2025 6:45 utc | 385
 
Makes Sense. He has always spoken about the Decision making centers. And he has always refrained from targeting civilians. (unlike the Yanks or the Izzies)

Posted by: Original Newbie | Dec 3 2025 16:58 utc | 507

not terrified – just want to keep the graft flowing. One can be certain that VdL gets some vigorish too. (likely in some sort of “charity” she controls) 

Posted by: exile | Dec 3 2025 16:58 utc | 508

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 16:51 utc | 507
 
######
 
This.
 
It never pays to underestimate an opponent.
 
Where do we have any logistical information from?
 
What incentive do those sources have to report accurately?
 
Remember, one month before Oreshnik was deployed, no one knew that it existed, let alone its mechanisms or characteristics 
 
What other potential weapons might we be unaware of?
 
I believe that Russia can execute to its needs.
 
The real question (which we cannot answer) is, “Will they?”

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 17:00 utc | 509

@Newbie | Dec 3 2025 16:49 utc | 506

Agreed on number of hypersonics, but you can close a harbor with just a sunken ship…

Yes, and one of those could help transition idiots like Rutte into a more peaceful dimension.
 

What if US stops supplying weapons to Ukraine, even for money? Is there a Plan B?
Rutte: ‘NO, I don’t think we have to think about a Plan B’
Translation: If Trump goes cold turkey on helping Zelensky, it’s OVER

https://t.me/rtnews/123721

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 3 2025 17:01 utc | 510

Doctor Eleven@475…….back on your horse I see, you live near Whitehall by chance? It’s metaphorical, Whitehall, niggley enough for you to stop and chat though……….I’m thinking if Putin was crafty, he’d leave England out of it, then suprise the fuckers with a Guy Fawkes boom…….
 
Cheers M 
 
……….the issue for Russia was stated by the Governor of Crimea, several nights ago the Britkrainians surprised the air defence forces of Crimea with a saturated drone and missile attack launched across the Sea of Azov, the Crimean defenders worked admirably taking out the majority of the projectiles and drones, unfortunately several drones got through and caused damage…..
 
……Russia, 11 time zones, largest country on the planet, only two major population centres, and those major population centres are well within US, NATO, Britkrainia or any combination there ofs reach…….that’s a fine line to walk…….

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Dec 3 2025 17:04 utc | 511

Newbie @506: “…but you can close a harbor with just a sunken ship…”
 
Or one bridge? (See Baltimore). But that would have to be a very lucky (or unlucky, depending upon how you look at it) strike. If the port in question has only a single very constrained and shallow channel, then sinking a very large ship in it will do the job, but most busy ports’ channels are not that small. If the intention is to take out the quays, cranes, freight handling equipment, and staging facilities, you’re gonna need to deliver a shit-tonnage of explosives.
 

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 17:07 utc | 512

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 16:47 utc | 504

 
A typical yankee doodle miscalculation. With Odessa, as with the rest of Novorossiya, it’s not what damage Russia “can” do that dictates the level of destruction. Instead you should pay attention to what Russian leadership, even Vladimir Vladimirovich himself, have stated on numerous occasions about the “surgical” character of the ongoing Special Military Operation.
 
Compare the total number of murdered civilians in Russian strikes on Banderastan since Februari 2022 with the number of civilian casualties in any other armed conflict (war) lasting for 3 full years during the last half a century, and you might, just might, understand what I’m trying to say.
 
Oh, and for Pete’s sake (sorry for the unintentional pun), listen to what his Army Secretary Driscoll had to say on the same subject just one week ago!  

Posted by: ThirdWorldDude | Dec 3 2025 17:08 utc | 513

The NATO plan of spring 95 (that’s all I know) mentions 2029/2030 as the start date. So 3-4 years.
During this time, Russian production is expected to catch up, and will continue to increase.
This is a lofty goal, especially since the EU and the UK have no money, industries are closing, unemployment is rising, skilled workers are leaving, and there are other problems.
And yet the existing arms industry is to continue to be ramped up? Something is wrong with the NATO/EU’s calculations. Especially since the assumed help from the US cannot be counted on.

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 17:09 utc | 514

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 15:47 utc | 484
 
100Kinzhals or other weapons targeting specific points… is the number that Russia fires at targets in Ukraine every month, if not every week. Europe is 10 times bigger, think about it

Posted by: sh0tek | Dec 3 2025 17:11 utc | 515

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 17:09 utc | 518
taping mistake – not 95 but 2025

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 17:16 utc | 516

Putin is not a bloke to fuck about. He pulled Russia up by its bootlaces. Something that has always been strong in me is never attack another mans family. Russia is Putins family.
 
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 3 2025 15:27 utc | 473

 
This. 
 
Which is why I’d find all that whining about “Putin is a Jew who is selling out Russia” to be either risible or obnoxious, depending on my mood. Over the course of a generation he’s overseen one of the most remarkable economic and societal recoveries in human history — not exactly the behavior of a traitor.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 3 2025 17:16 utc | 517

ThirdWorldDude @517: “…it’s not what damage Russia “can” do…”
 
Sure, I was just using Odessa as an example, but the fact remains that Russia couldn’t shut that port down in short order with conventional missiles even if they wanted to. 
 
 

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 17:20 utc | 518

Churchill’s operation unthinkable never went away.
In the Wotan west they don’t think, that’s not Wotan’s way.
Every day is Wednesday.

Posted by: Andrew Sarchus | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 519

” Over the course of a generation he’s overseen one of the most remarkable economic and societal recoveries in human history — not exactly the behavior of a traitor.”
 
Posted by: malenkov | Dec 3 2025 17:16 utc | 521
 
I agree with you 100%

Posted by: canuk | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 520

No need to destroy actual physical equipment, just the control centres. In its drive for ever-more lean and mean efficiency, the West has centralised itself into single points of vulnerability.
 
Why destroy airports when destroying the National Air Traffic Centre will bring air traffic supervision to a halt?

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 521

@516 William Gruff
 
We’ll have a  better idea of how much damage Russia does to Europe in the first week of war about a month after the war actually starts.  Possibly before this time next year.  My preference is to not be in Europe at that time.  About the only thing I feel fairly confident of is:  Russia is definitely out to win the peace after the war.  I’d be shocked if they used nukes before Europe did, and possibly not even if Europe DOES use nukes, depending upon how many Europe used and the results of the nuclear attacks.
 
An interesting side show is:  how will the existence of European nuclear power plants effect Russian missile targeting?

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 522

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 16:57 utc | 510
 
Europe’s fighting spirit is likely to have waned after the first salvo
 
Agreed… meaning the targets selected and their immediate and total destruction will suffice to convince the eurotards that it is indeed a new era and that there’s a new sheriff in town.

Posted by: john | Dec 3 2025 17:24 utc | 523

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 3 2025 12:42 utc | 417
makes one wonder what either of these two know…about anything. How many troops does the US have in Europe, that we can know about? the plan is Afghanistan when shit hits the fan? we’ll cheer, the US taco’d and ran? once again? 
 
maybe.
 
I think the takeaway from Bessent’s statement is that NATO is just a for-profit endeavor for the US. Well said, Bessent. Very true. But I wouldn’t hire him to augur what time the 6 o’clock news comes on the TV, much less who will win the Super Bowl opening coin toss of any contest.
 
And what is Europe’s response? MOAR NUKES! Let’s ask Australia who they will be buying those nukes from…keeping us all safe, keeping the peace. When every nation has their own Godzilla, we’ll all be safer! Esp when every country is run by a Bibi clone.

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 3 2025 17:32 utc | 524

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 526
 
Nobody is going to nuke anybody.
 
Period.

Posted by: canuk | Dec 3 2025 17:36 utc | 525

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 3 2025 17:32 utc | 528
And Godzilla is Made In America ™! that will work out great. Aim for the batting average of a SpaceX launch. Blowin’ up stuff is how we larn. put ’em in space while you are at it. 

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 3 2025 17:36 utc | 526

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 17:20 utc | 522
 
One Hazelnut switch has 36 massive impact strikes, spread over as wide an area as chosen.  Can’t see any ports withstanding that.

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 3 2025 17:38 utc | 527

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 526
 
With the existence of Oreshnik, I too would be shocked if Russia used nukes against Europe. Depending on the damage caused by Oreshnik (as Jeremy Rhymings-Lang likes to point out, we have seen no pictures from Yuzhmash), Europe will say that Russia did use nukes and use it as an excuse to nuke Moscow. Then Europe and Russia are destroyed and the U.S. is at the top of the shitheap yet again. If the U.S. can get Japan, SK, Taiwan, and the Philippines (maybe even Australia?) to attack China for them, they remain untouched and intact. 1945 all over again. I think this is the U.S. plan, and I think it will spectacularly backfire. One reason being that it is not 1945 anymore, and everyone being attacked (Russia and China) will know the U.S. is behind it. 

Posted by: Caveman | Dec 3 2025 17:38 utc | 528

@529 Canuk
 
Nobody is going to nuke anybody. Period.
 
I agree, although with less certainty.  The issue of nuclear power plants being hit either intentionally or inadvertently will still be an issue.

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:40 utc | 529

how will the existence of European nuclear power plants effect Russian missile targeting?

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 526
 
From the SMO I would draw the lesson that Russia targets the grid infrastructure supporting the NPPs, forcing them into standby or shutdown mode, rather than targetting the plants themselves.
 
Not convinced Russia really wants the contents of a reactor drifting on a prevailing west-to-east wind…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 17:42 utc | 530

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Dec 3 2025 17:38 utc | 531


Each of those Hazelnut MIRVs or whatever they are are individually programmable, too.

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 3 2025 17:44 utc | 531

@Caveman 532
 
Yeah, it does seem that one of the goals of the US is the complete destruction of Europe, Japan, and South Korea.  Maybe the Philippines too?  

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:44 utc | 532

Republicofscotland | Dec 2 2025 15:54 utc | 91
*** World War One was in effect – caused by the fallout of Queen Victoria’s offspring.***
 
Descendants of the avaricious little sow …. pity the UK education system has never taught the public such details as how she (via parliament) lied to con the public into effectively buying her the Balmoral estate. In isolation, comparatively trivial corrruptions but which if more widely exposed could have added up to a very different, anti-Establishment,  perspective on those who rule. And thus altered future history ….
 
Worth also worrying about what the CIA’s zio-pig calling himself the Ponciff in Rome is up to just now. Will no doubt tie in with syncretist zio-gibberings of a jugeared tampon masquerading as King of the UK, and the zio-lunatic Huckabee.

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 3 2025 17:46 utc | 533

In addition, Russia has only a handful of aircraft that can launch kinzhals, so even if Russia has cranked production up to build a stockpile of thousands (certainly not the case, but for argument’s sake let’s say they have) they can still only launch a few at a time. There will be no swarms of hundreds of kinzhals raining down on targets across Europe. 
 
 
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 16:47 utc | 504
 
Mmhmm. The further a target is from Russia, the weaker Russia’s threats are. Poland and particularly Estonia have a lot to worry about, but the zealots hoping for London to be buried might as well wish for a unicorn. Russia has the capability to strike UK targets, but the more strikes they need the more Russian military assets would be put in danger. Besides which they are not necessary: Keir Starmer is the most unpopular British leader since King John, and Russia has to need for attacking nuclear-armed states when they might implode.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 17:46 utc | 534

@529 Canuk Nobody is going to nuke anybody.Period.
 I agree, although with less certainty.  The issue of nuclear power plants being hit either intentionally or inadvertently will still be an issue.
 
Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:40 utc | 533

 
Three other considerations: (1) dirty bombs and easily portable mininukes, which apocalypse-minded terrorists might find useful; (2) communication errors such as have occurred in the past; (3) the Zioterrorist Samson Option.
 
All unlikely but one can’t entirely preclude those possibilities.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 3 2025 17:47 utc | 535

Backing up a bit, why would the Russians use Oreshnik on a port? That is what Poseidon (Status-6) is for, IMO.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 17:48 utc | 536

@Jeremy Rhymings-Lang 534
 
From the SMO I would draw the lesson that Russia targets the grid infrastructure supporting the NPPs, forcing them into standby or shutdown mode, rather than targetting the plants themselves. Not convinced Russia really wants the contents of a reactor drifting on a prevailing west-to-east wind…
 
That is my take on it as well.  The possibility of European nuclear power plants making Europe not habitable may very well be what makes Europe surrender after a missile barrage or two rather than risk being non-existent.
 
Which also supports Canuks assertion that nukes will not be used period.

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:49 utc | 537

Yeah, it does seem that one of the goals of the US is the complete destruction of Europe, Japan, and South Korea.  Maybe the Philippines too?  
 
Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:44 utc | 536

 
But only once they’ve been thoroughly bled dry, so they still have some time left.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 3 2025 17:50 utc | 538

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 3 2025 17:44 utc | 536
I think the idea is to destroy any country with a manufacturing capacity that rivals or betters our own. Quite a few countries on that list.

Posted by: Caveman | Dec 3 2025 17:53 utc | 539

The further a target is from Russia, the weaker Russia’s threats are

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 17:46 utc | 538
 
And here we have another one overlooking/ignoring the sea-launched Zircons. Everyone gets so hooked up on air-launched Kinzhal or land-based Oreshnik they forget Russia’s other hypersonic capabilities, and these are just as formidable, carried by both surface vessels and submarines.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 17:55 utc | 540

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 3 2025 17:50 utc | 542
 
Precisely. Witness Germany. Deindustrialized over the past 5-10 years, next stop is main troop hub for European war with Russia. Bled then quartered yet again

Posted by: Caveman | Dec 3 2025 17:56 utc | 541

It is necesary to know how this is presented to the european public: Russia is threatening the european countries.
Posted by: Naive | Dec 2 2025 22:42
Until now, I don’t see in EU media such headline.  All reports are very cautious, but without attack.
Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 0:05 utc | 329
 
Likely you don’t read or listen to the same merdias as me. Everywhere: Russia will not not with Ukraine…
 
And also a landslide of Russophobia everywhere, like never berore, even in “humoristic” emissions: perfid Russians who never keep their word and the likes.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 3 2025 17:56 utc | 542

@LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 17:48 utc | 540

Backing up a bit, why would the Russians use Oreshnik on a port? That is what Poseidon (Status-6) is for, IMO.

Not for the port of Odessa, for obvious reasons.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 3 2025 17:56 utc | 543

The further a target is from Russia, the weaker Russia’s threats are.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 17:46 utc | 538
 
But you did notice that we’re talking about hypersonic speeds, right?

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 17:58 utc | 544

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 3 2025 17:56 utc | 547
 
#####
 
I believe the discussion was about NATO ports in Europe.
 
I can understand if people forgot, but Poseidon is a legit superweapon with stealth technology that can touch anywhere accessible from the ocean.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:00 utc | 545

Backing up a bit, why would the Russians use Oreshnik on a port? That is what Poseidon (Status-6) is for, IMO.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 17:48 utc | 540
 
Poseidon are not so much available and designed for intercontiental

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 18:01 utc | 546

oseidon are not so much available and designed for intercontiental
 
Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 18:01 utc | 550
 
#####
 
First, how do you know that?
 
And second, WUT!?????

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:03 utc | 547

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 17:20 utc | 522

 
What evidence can you present to back up your unsubstantiated claims…?

Posted by: ThirdWorldDude | Dec 3 2025 18:06 utc | 548

all this talk of nuclear war is getting me so hot! i’ll be back…we’ll meet again vera lynn. music is the food of love, sing on! i love it! now for my supersized mcnuggets and big mac and giganto-gulp of fresh as the morning Mountain Dew.

Posted by: duck n cover | Dec 3 2025 18:07 utc | 549

how do you know that?
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:03 utc | 551
 
I can read and calculate

Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 18:07 utc | 550

I can read and calculate
 
Posted by: smartfox | Dec 3 2025 18:07 utc | 554
 
######
 
What did you read and where, and what inputs did you use to calculate?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:09 utc | 551

Everyone gets so hooked up on air-launched Kinzhal or land-based Oreshnik they forget Russia’s other hypersonic capabilities, and these are just as formidable, carried by both surface vessels and submarines.
 
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 17:55 utc | 544
 
Which surface vessels are getting close enough to fire Kalibrs at London again? I’m sure the Europeans would love a reason to force the Russian Navy back into its ports.
 
Now submarines are a different matter, and were the primary threat I thought of. But submarines aren’t invincible, quite the contrary, and constantly using them for missile launches is a great way to lose them. Which bases do you believe Russia will use in its naval campaign against Europe? 

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 18:10 utc | 552

Remember, one month before Oreshnik was deployed, no one knew that it existed, let alone its mechanisms or characteristics What other potential weapons might we be unaware of?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 17:00 utc | 513
 
Exactly this; far too many folks don’t understand the restraint Russia has shown during the SMO, using this as a reinforcement of their “Muh Russia weak ” traditionalist/exceptionalist mindset.
 
I continue to believe that Oreshnik severely unsettled the West, and, if anyone from the British government does happen to lurk, I would very much prefer it if we didn’t find out, first-hand, what Russia may still have to unveil!

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 18:16 utc | 553

Which surface vessels are getting close enough to fire Kalibrs at London again?

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 18:10 utc | 556
 
You probably need to bone up on the difference between Kalibr and Zircon, you seem to have confused the two, very different, weapon systems.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 18:19 utc | 554

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 18:10 utc | 556
 
#####
 
As I have mentioned, the Russians have submarine deployable (can go wherever subs can go) stealth drones.
 
You can destroy the sub, but the drone may be able to be remotely controlled or programmed in advance.
 
Not dissimilar from Burevestnik, which can loiter until it is called upon to strike.
 
The bottom line, all of these conversations over weapon quantities that only smartfox knows, are fruitless.
 
Russia is so far ahead in military technology, the game has long been over. Sure, they haven’t annihilated anyone. I can think of many reasons why, but do not kid yourself, Russia could have made Ukraine a smoking crater 2 years ago.
 
Wait until people find out how far ahead the Chinese are in space technology…

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:20 utc | 555

German “leftist”/olive green TAZ doesn´t delete a reader´s comment which is demanding the west delivering Napalm to UAF. 
I´s unbelievable how evil and barbaric a part of my co-citizens had become throughout globalist lies and hate propaganda…

Posted by: Blue Angel | Dec 3 2025 18:20 utc | 556

I would very much prefer it if we didn’t find out, first-hand, what Russia may still have to unveil!
 
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 18:16 utc | 557
 
Mmhmm. The problem of UK arms factories running full tilt is that anyone can light the place up- hypersonics are superfluous to that sort of calculation. But the “battle group” in Estonia numbers less than a thousand men, and has a great deal more to fear from a European war.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 18:23 utc | 557

That should have been a “smoking crater without using nukes.”

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:23 utc | 558

Unlike most hardware store versions…nice steel, springy steel…

https://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Anvils/RailAnvils.htm

Posted by: Ornot | Dec 3 2025 18:28 utc | 559

You probably need to bone up on the difference between Kalibr and Zircon, you seem to have confused the two, very different, weapon systems.
 
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 18:19 utc | 558
 
Not at all. If you say that subsonic missiles like Kalibr aren’t in the mix, so be it, but Russian -conventional- hypersonic production isn’t actually enough to wreck all of Europe simultaneously. At any rate, that clearly isn’t the direction VVP wants to go after years of war.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 18:33 utc | 560

Posted by: Blue Angel | Dec 3 2025 18:20 utc | 560
#####
 
It is not unbelievable. Consider that a warning. Your fellow countrymen are nuts. Much of the West is.
 
That said, do you get upset if a dog barks at you when you walk by? That’s all the comments of NPCs and politicians amount to, barking.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 18:40 utc | 561

ThirdWorldDude @552:
 
No evidence, just simple physics. We don’t have to wade through the mathematics of how much energy is needed to destroy a typical quay with associated equipment, and how much energy is in the warhead of a conventional kinzhal times how many kinzhals Russia can realistically produce per month, to see that there is an order of magnitude difference between the two. 
 
Again, some people are imaging these weapons to be vastly more powerful than they can possibly be in reality. While the West doesn’t make any wunderwaffen, neither does Russia. Yes, the oreshnik has some impressive characteristics, but the destructive energies it releases with its kinetic impactors cannot exceed the energy content of the fuel in the MRBM launcher that gets it moving, and even so that is a hell of a lot more than a kinzhal can deliver.
 
There are things that are possible with conventional weapons and things that are not. The laws of thermodynamics limit the energy that conventional weapons can deliver. You might be able to squeeze a little bit more energy from a warhead of a given weight with fancy chemistry, but not enough to do hugely more damage. 
 
Anyway, even tactical nukes would be hard pressed to put a Soviet-built sea port out of action long term. 

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 18:40 utc | 562

Russian -conventional- hypersonic production isn’t actually enough to wreck all of Europe simultaneously

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 3 2025 18:33 utc | 564
 
[sigh] You’re not the only one to do this, so don’t take it as a personal attack, but the Zircons are already deployed, remember they pre-date Kinzhal.
 
Andrei Martyanov has chapter-and-verse, but I’m going from memory here, the development goes from P-700 Granit high-supersonic anti-ship missiles to P-800 true-hypersonic anti-ship missile to Zircon true-hypersonic sea-to land missiles (with a range of 2000km), and this progression has happened over the last 15 years; Kinzhal was a later development for underslung air launch.
 
So Zircon has already been produced in large numbers, and is not relying on current production for effective deployment.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 18:47 utc | 563

The West tends to misunderstand Russia’s words and intentions, but I think this time it would be very unfortunate for Europe to not grasp Putin’s full meaning. 

[‘specially when]
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 15:22 utc | 471
[or] steven t johnson | Dec 2 2025 22:50 utc | 297

If Europe suddenly decides to go to war against us and actually follows through with it, then a situation may arise very quickly where we will be left with no one to negotiate with.

*oooooo*
 
Still uses the modal verb, “may” after a certainty. Depends on the nature of the `actually following through’. Still suggests `surgical’ removal of relevant governmental authorities. Could apply to Russia as well.
 
As close as possible in the real world to that immortal line by Bruce Willis

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 19:02 utc | 564

Interestingly, nobody has picked up on this:

In its drive for ever-more lean and mean efficiency, the West has centralised itself into single points of vulnerability.
 
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 17:21 utc | 525

Am I wrong? If so, why?

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 19:06 utc | 565

I am not a military degenerate, but basic strategy tells me that I don’t need to hit all of Europe at once.
 
There are points of leverage that, if collapsed, the whole thing implodes. That’s with most any complex system.
 
One port, one power station, one parliament, etc.
 
Empire is never decentralized. Empire is an exercise in centralization.
 
I have not (nor will I look) looked at America, but I would believe if someone told me that 5 sites are enough to incapacitate the US military for months.
 
Again, I don’t know what they are. I know that if I hamstring you in a knife fight, I will win. I don’t need to stab your heart or cut your head off.
 
How many weapons Russia has is irrelevant. Does their opponent have those critical areas exposed, and has Russia identified them?
 
Remember, Luke Skywalker blew up an entire Death Star with one shot at the “sweet spot,” which triggered a detonation.
 
Yes, fiction, but a metaphor for how Goliath was felled by a stone. Many such examples can be found in myth and history.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 3 2025 19:11 utc | 566

Am I wrong? If so, why?
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 19:06 utc | 569

 
I think you’re absolutely right and I think it’s to do with the quality of western politicians these times who prepare for total war and at the same time don’t have a single thought about security in their own countries. Russia weak we strong seems to be the stretch of their thinking.

Posted by: Avtonom | Dec 3 2025 19:20 utc | 567

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 19:06 utc | 569

Well, there may be single points of vulnerability, but it’s the single points of failure that really matter in any complex system.  In simple terms, they may mean the same bloody thing.  And if I understand you correctly, you are implying that neither single points are no longer being identified and called out, because the system of checks and balances is broken beyond repair; because the checks and balances have become as bogged down, softened out and outright corrupted as the powers they are supposed to control.  Thus there is not much to add because you said all there is to say 🙂

Posted by: Nervous German | Dec 3 2025 19:21 utc | 568

Someone objected that Putin said nothing about nuclear war. It is hard to say what else Putin could have meant, which is why that is a reasonable interpretation. It’s possible Putin was just blathering words without thinking, but the defense Putin is an emptyheaded chatterbox isn’t really a defense. It’s more like a confession. 
 
Someone noted that Putin said nothing about winning. If that was true, he would have said, there would be nobody to negotiate. What he said amounts to, there would be nobody (left for us, the winners) to negotiate with. And if he did smirk, that says something without words. I do not find myself compelled to worship tough guys and winners, though, so even if Putin were both, that’s irrelevant to me. 
 
Niggling distinctions between surgical and strategic conventional bombing are not useful contributions. For instance, it is entirely unclear how bombing a city’s water plant doesn’t disturb the city. Nor is it clear that strategic conventional bombing ever works, not in WWII or in the Iran/Israel war of recent days. Everything suggests that a general nuclear exchange will be common ruin, not victory. That’s why there’s such an emphasis on immunity to retaliation, why filth like Trump are pushing fantasies like Golden Dome. Fire the missiles, and sit back to gloat, that’s the daydream. 

Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 3 2025 19:41 utc | 569

Someone objected that Putin said nothing about nuclear war. It

Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 3 2025 19:41 utc | 573
Said nothing about winning. The rest is your psychotic delusions and greasy ad hominem. Eat it, asshole.
 

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 19:50 utc | 570

@LoveDonbass: “Barking dogs” are often described as “not biting”, but some (too many) of these special ones seem to have been willingly infected with warmongering rabies.
Additionally they don´t have a clue of reality and believe all the delusional BS about “weak Russia” and “lying Putin” globalist media are feeding them. This combination of insane hatred and megalomania could become a real danger. At least for people unter suspect of being “Putin friends” or “Kremlin trolls” when it comes to civil war, which the globalists seem to instigate (additionally). So it´s good to have a solid spade nearby and a real dog which will bite if necessary. 

Posted by: Blue Angel | Dec 3 2025 20:01 utc | 571

Posted by: David F | Dec 3 2025 11:39 utc | 408
 
“Things were always better in the old days” – Seneferet, 4000BCE

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Dec 3 2025 20:02 utc | 572

In all this talk of missiles and nukes no one has mentioned Russia taking out satellites  and blinding the military and civilians, as they simultaneously, launch various other weapons   

Posted by: dp | Dec 3 2025 20:25 utc | 573

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 19:50 utc | 574  I wrote

Someone noted that Putin said nothing about winning. If that was true, he would have said, there would be nobody to negotiate. What he said amounts to, there would be nobody (left for us, the winners) to negotiate with. And if he did smirk, that says something without words. I do not find myself compelled to worship tough guys and winners, though, so even if Putin were both, that’s irrelevant to me. 

 
That gored his ox, hence the bellowing, but I’m right.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 3 2025 20:51 utc | 574

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 18:40 utc | 566

 
Who said it has to be missiles? Can you calculate what 20 Geran-3 drones, each with a 300 kg payload, can do to a Soviet-style structure? 🙂
 
Besides, I just saw Putin’s remarks on the Russian retaliatory alternatives against Banderastan after the Black Sea terrorist attacks, so here’s to hoping you won’t have to wait too long to see your misconceptions going up in smoke alongside Ukronazi port infrastructure!

Posted by: ThirdWorldDude | Dec 3 2025 20:58 utc | 575

A General Comment
Heap and heaps of Bull Poop on this (getting stale) thread at the moment.
If the glorious (and gorgeous) NATO “defensive alliance” is stupid enough to undertake a “per-emptive” strike against the RF it would have to be a nuclear attack o have any real impact. If so then it would be answered with nukes from the RF.  The Rubicon would have been crossed!
Unfortunately I think there are enough drooling dingbats in the collective west that  that such a possibility is quite real.  I hope “Daddy” is taking note of the increasing insane thoughts of the kiddies.

Posted by: Barrel Brown | Dec 3 2025 21:05 utc | 576

I’m in agreement will William Gruff. His position that nonnuclear hypersonics do limited damage is correct. They vaporize on impact.
 
Russian Oreshnik Missile:
The Power, Speed & Payloads w MIT professor Ted Postol
https://www.youtube.com/live/kKS7OYZoVdE?si=fbJgyG0r89giMNOB
 

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 3 2025 21:10 utc | 577

malenkov@521…….Putin always puts Russians first, especially Jewish Russians squatting on stolen Palestinian land…….has he offered to extradite any Russian accused of killing, burning, or looting Palestinian towns or citizens…….did he condemn what Russia settlers squatting on Palestinian land are doing there……has he ever pointed out it’s not their land to steal? Never judge someone by their religion or lack thereof, judge them on their actions, he can’t even say England, England is attacking us, do you know why he only whines about the EU because the Brexiters set up the shit hole for the unwanted squatters to go to………Armagedding it?
 
Cheers M 

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Dec 3 2025 21:50 utc | 578

ThirdWorldDude @579:
 

Who said it has to be missiles? Can you calculate what 20 Geran-3 drones, each with a 300 kg payload, can do to a Soviet-style structure? 🙂 

Agreed, swarms of Geran style drones are a cheap and effective replacement for old-school carpet bombing. That would do the trick. But remember, we were talking about the Russian response to an overt NATO attack with Russia destroying targets in Europe. Granted, there is not much in Europe that is built to Soviet standards of bomb-resistance, but most targets there are also a little far for Geran style drones to get to. I still maintain that if Russia is going to go strategic on Europe, they will have to go nuclear.
 
I would also like to point out that denial of this need or willingness from Russia does neither Russia nor Europe any good. It is best for everyone concerned if everyone fully believes that Russia is ready and willing to go hardcore on Europe if the Eurotards make the unfortunate choice. Claiming that a few kinzhals and oreshniks is all Russia needs to smack that bitch up is just wishful thinking.
 

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 21:55 utc | 579

OK, let’s see if we can finish this thread off with some commodity investment advice:
 
Zircon, bitchezz…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 3 2025 22:06 utc | 580

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 21:55 utc | 583
 
Realistically, there are probably 100,000 sites you would have to hit. Probably more.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 3 2025 22:34 utc | 581

“Someone noted that Putin said nothing about winning. If that was true … .‡

If Europe suddenly decides to go to war against us and actually follows through with it, then a situation may arise very quickly where we will be left with no one to negotiate with.

‘s not there. Eat it.

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 22:37 utc | 582

“Everything suggests that a general nuclear exchange will be common ruin, not victory.”
Putin has, in fact, said that in his own words — not your `interpretation’. Eat it.

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 22:44 utc | 583

William Gruff | Dec 3 2025 21:55 utc | 583
What need of wishful thinking — or Putin for that matter  — have we when we have your analyses and johnson’s `interpretions’. 
Russia *will* `smack that bitch up’ with `non strategic’ ordinance as well in such an event. PDS the Russian military is not authorized to negotiate.

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 23:03 utc | 584

Is it only me, but I think that the tone of the speech by Putin changed a lot during the last day or the last two days.
 
For me the key word is “ready”. We are ready.
 
And I am hinting that before Russia was not “ready” and had to buy time. What the fucking western morons were and are still not able to understand,
 
And when he says that Russia can close the Ukrainian ports on the Black Sea, yeah, it can. Only trolls like gruff cannot understand it of course.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 3 2025 23:03 utc | 585

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 3 2025 22:37 utc | 586
 
The interesting part is: “we will be left”.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 3 2025 23:08 utc | 586

For me the key word is “ready”. We are ready. Posted by: Naive | Dec 3 2025 23:03 utc | 589
 
(Now) we’re ready
 
This leads me to a thing that has bothered me these last days. Not 4 years ago, RF army could muster 100k badly equipped free bayonets, MoD was mired in corruption and inefficiency.
 
Now RF has close to 1 million experienced  free bayonets and a lean and mean war machine.
 
Nato, 4 years ago “Am I jumping the gun, Baldrick, or are the words ‘I have a cunning plan’ marching with ill-deserved confidence in the direction of this conversation?”
 
somebody did jump the gun and didn’t think his cunning plan quite through.
 
what would be the situation of RF’s army if not for the SMO? How many years without  flooring the pedal and be anywhere near now?

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 0:28 utc | 587

The interesting part is: “we will be left”.
Posted by: Naive | Dec 3 2025 23:08 utc | 590
 
Another interesting point, particularly since the oreshnik (after some crazy walks through coulomb’s force etc) I have considered for a while that (and things studied might have led there) fusion without fission stage. No more sakharov’s third idea/Teller-Ulam .
 
Little to no fallout, no fission signature, fully dial a yield… maybe resource frugal
 
Game changer.

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 0:37 utc | 588

Announcing pre-emptive strikes — pretty stupid.

Posted by: lester | Dec 4 2025 0:47 utc | 589

If military history has ONE lesson, it is DON’T INVADE RUSSIA!

Posted by: lester | Dec 4 2025 0:48 utc | 590

Announcing pre-emptive strikes — pretty stupid.
Posted by: lester | Dec 4 2025 0:47 utc | 593
 
Only cowards do such announces. Empty words. They do not have the means.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 4 2025 1:15 utc | 591

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 0:28 utc | 591
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 0:37 utc | 592
 
Thanks!

Posted by: Naive | Dec 4 2025 1:16 utc | 592

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 0:28 utc | 591Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 0:37 utc | 592 Thanks!
Posted by: Naive | Dec 4 2025 1:16 utc | 596
 
No need to thank, you gave me a good context to share some things i was pondering
 
Go ahead and comment (or even a critic) it is there to be discussed.

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 1:37 utc | 593

Jeremy 567
First, this is my first time posting with or seeing new site layout, excuse me if this displays wonky, more of a test post thank any informative insight.

Andrei Martyanov has chapter-and-verse, but I’m going from memory here, the development goes from P-700 Granit high-supersonic anti-ship missiles to P-800 true-hypersonic anti-ship missile to Zircon true-hypersonic sea-to land missiles (with a range of 2000km), and this progression has happened over the last 15 years; Kinzhal was a later development for underslung air launch.

I believe, it was the mass deployment of the Sunburn SSN22 that rendered aircraft carriers useless against any near peer adversary. That was decades ago, now we have hoothies with nearly the same capabilities. It’s remarkable those things are still stuffed chock full of people and sailed off.

Posted by: NJH | Dec 4 2025 2:20 utc | 594

It’s remarkable those things are still stuffed chock full of people and sailed off.
Posted by: NJH | Dec 4 2025 2:20 utc | 598
 
do you want a sunken nuclear reactor just on your coast? 
guess not
 
Poison  pill works wonders

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 4 2025 2:27 utc | 595

Newbie | Dec 4 2025 2:24 utc | 67
 
Checking in on the dead thread. The newbie naive wankers with this clown Laurence joining.. I guess you blokes get a gold medal for an almighty wank.
 
Apologies for the terminology.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 4 2025 2:48 utc | 596

That rail “breakage” has to be some kind of a joke.  Nobody blew that up!  That’s clearly some other sort of breakage because the bed below looks undisturbed.

Posted by: MoT | Dec 4 2025 3:58 utc | 597

NATO preemptive strike https://youtube.com/watch?v=XQZGVSy6xQk

Posted by: ArmChairGeneral | Dec 4 2025 7:55 utc | 598

“Putin always puts Russians first, especially Jewish Russians squatting on stolen Palestinian land”
 
AFAIK:
settlers tend to be orthodox, haredi, from the US and US financed.

Posted by: MAKK | Dec 4 2025 8:16 utc | 599

That rail “breakage” has to be some kind of a joke.  Nobody blew that up!  That’s clearly some other sort of breakage because the bed below looks undisturbed.
Posted by: MoT | Dec 4 2025 3:58 utc | 601

Yes. balast undisturbed, sleepers beyond missing fixings OK, fragments directly under the crack zone. Looks very much like fatigue cracks with a final Overload fracture on the left. right side looks older. Difficult to say if the “missing” sleeper bolts are at the start or end of the action.
there is a different set of photos circulating ( via some UKR blogger ) that really show damage created by explosives. Unfortunately that image has been used several times in the last 6..12 month. earliest use IMU showing UKR sabotage in Russia.
 

Posted by: MAKK | Dec 4 2025 8:24 utc | 600