Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 26, 2025
Navy Shows Why The U.S. Is Losing Its Relative Power

The defeat of the west is in part happening because its loss of the ability to sensibly analyze and manage things. A consequence is the relative loss of power.

Here it is the U.S. Navy demonstrating the issue:

Navy Cuts Constellation-Class Frigate Program Short as Shipbuilding Delays MountgCaptain

The U.S. Navy announced Tuesday it is terminating four ships from its troubled Constellation-class frigate program before construction begins, marking a significant strategic shift as the service grapples with mounting delays and seeks faster alternatives for fleet expansion.

Secretary of the Navy John Phelan revealed the decision on social media, stating that while the first two frigates—Constellation (FFG-62) and Congress (FFG-63)—will proceed to completion at Fincantieri Marinette Marine’s Wisconsin shipyard, the Navy has reached a “comprehensive framework” with the Italian-owned contractor to cancel the next four planned vessels in the class.

The announcement comes as the program faces severe schedule challenges. The lead ship, originally slated for delivery in April 2026, is now expected three years later in April 2029—a 36-month delay that has raised concerns about the Navy’s ability to execute its modernization plans.

Over the last 20+ years the Navy ship building management has not delivered even one class of ships on time and within the projected price frame. Moreover none ever reached the desired and promised capabilities.

Once there were to be 32 Zumwalt-class destroyers each with 16,000 tons of displacement. Only three were build and only two are active. The ships were supposed to carry new technologies which turned out to be too complicate and too expensive:

The ship is designed around its two Advanced Gun Systems (AGS), turrets with 920-round magazines, and unique Long Range Land Attack Projectile (LRLAP) ammunition. LRLAP procurement was canceled, rendering the guns unusable, so the Navy re-purposed the ships for surface warfare. In 2023, the Navy removed the AGS from the ships and replaced them with hypersonic missiles.

The Navy does not have hypersonic missiles. Until it develops some the extremely expensive destroyers will mostly be useless.

There were also the Littoral Combat Ships (LCS) at 3,000 ton displacement which were supposed to be fast and carry changeable weapon modules. The Little Crappy Ships delivered turned out to be unreliable speed boats which could not survive a day in a war. Most modules they were supposed to carry were never build. Seven of the 35 commissioned since 2008 have already been retired. Some with less than five years in service.

To replace the failing LCS program the Navy desired larger multipurpose frigates. To prevent a repeat of the ill fated LCS program an order from above was given to use an existing design. The idea was to buy a ship design from allies that was proven to work and to build it in the U.S. with only minimal modifications.

But the Navy bureaucracy intervened and in 2020 it ended up with this ‘compromise’:

The Navy awarded a partial contract to Fincantieri for the design and construction of the new frigate. The $795M contract is for the basic hull. Extensive Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) will be paid for separately and includes Baseline 10 Aegis Combat System, Mk 41 VLS, Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar, command and control electronics, decoy systems, Mk110 57mm gun, RAM point defense launcher, Naval Strike Missile launcher, SEWIP Blk II … basically everything that isn’t the hull.

The lead ship will cost $1.281 billion, with $795 million of that covering the shipbuilder’s detail design and construction costs and the rest covering the GFE, including the combat systems, radar, launchers, command and control systems, decoys and more.

The Italian/French FREMM frigates are well balanced ships with about 6,000 ton displacement. They are configured to allow for anti-submarine, surface warfare and air defenses. Twenty-two are currently in service.

But the Navy did not like to use weapon systems that were made elsewhere even when they worked well. So it ripped everything out of the hull design and tried to stuff its own type of equipment into it.

Ship design does not work like this. The U.S. radar is heavier which makes the ship top heavy and instable. Thus the hull needs to be widened which decreases the potential speed of the vessel which then requires changes in the machinery and so on and so on. The whole point of buying a working design to prevent a costly design creep was missed.

Moreover the Navy ordered the ships to be build before its desired design changes were even defined. Parts of the ships had to be rebuild when the final designs arrived. The Government Accountability Office wrote a highly critical report on this:

Over at least 2 decades, the Navy’s Constellation class Guided Missile Frigate program plans to acquire and deliver up to 20 frigates—multi-mission, small surface combatant warships—at a combined cost of over $22 billion. To reduce technical risk, the Navy and its shipbuilder modified an existing design to incorporate Navy specifications and weapon systems. However, the Navy’s decision to begin construction before the design was complete is inconsistent with leading ship design practices and jeopardized this approach. Further, design instability has caused weight growth.

The ship class now has a displacement of 7,300 tons which makes it slower than the original design. It also has less endurance. It is more expensive than planned and at least three years behind schedule.

The shipyard that is building these ships did not mind to implement the Navy changes to its own design:

As of November 2024, officials reported that the shipbuilder had submitted five requests for “equitable adjustment”, raising the potential for unbudgeted cost growth. Requests for equitable adjustment provide a remedy payable only when unforeseen or unintended circumstances – such as government modification of a contract – cause an increase in costs. The US Navy deemed the total costs of the five requests “not suitable for public release”. According to officials, these requests relate to government change orders and significant design changes from the frigate’s parent ship design.

The ship yard also did not mind to chancel the program:

The agreement provides continuity of work for the two Constellation-class frigates currently under construction and discontinues the contract for the four other frigates already under contract. Crucially, Fincantieri stated that the Navy will indemnify the company on existing economic commitments and industrial impacts through measures provided as a result of the contractual decision made for the Navy’s convenience.

Looking forward, Fincantieri says it expects to receive new orders to deliver classes of vessels in segments that serve the immediate interests of the nation, including amphibious, icebreaking, and other special missions vessels. The company also stated it will support the U.S. Navy as it redefines strategic choices in the Small Surface Combatants segment, both manned and unmanned.

It’s, of course, a racket.

But behind is also ill discipline. An unwillingness to accept what already has proven to be a good solution. An unreasonable desire for new technology even when it is impractical and overly costly.

The overall result is a Navy that is constantly losing its relative power:

According to a Pentagon estimate, the People’s Liberation Army Navy is expected to have about 400 hulls in the water by the end of this year. Some 50 of those ships are frigates, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

The US fleet is around 240 ships and submarines [but no frigates].

It’s a troubling statistic, experts say, with history showing in any confrontation the larger fleet usually wins.

The Pentagon think tank RAND has recognized the decline. It recently published a report that urged the U.S. to accommodate China instead of trying to fight it:

In October of 2025, the RAND Corporation published a report titled “Stabilizing the U.S.–China Rivalry“. Within weeks, the study disappeared from RAND’s website. No explanation. No revision notice. No reupload.

The timeline itself suggests a struggle. The study appeared on RAND’s website in mid-October 2025 and was not removed until nearly two weeks later. This is far too slow for a routine correction and far too fast for a scheduled revision. Such a delay is characteristic of an internal contest: the report was vetted, approved, published, and allowed to circulate — until opposition within the policy structure hardened sufficiently to demand its removal. The RAND report was not suppressed because it was mistaken, but because its implications became intolerable after they were recognized.

A well known quote from Sun Tsu urges to know oneself and the enemy to not fear the results of hundred battles. The U.S., it seems, rejects to know either.

Comments

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 27 2025 2:46 utc | 197
 
Although the thread is about Ukraine, it is hard not to accept that Russia is involved on both ends of the axis where the US is involved due to starting Maidan/Ukraine and now off on another neocon adventure in Venezuela where they meet Russia again. They are therefore inexorably connected.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 27 2025 2:54 utc | 201

Why The US Navy Fears China’s New Defense System in Venezuela

 
Why The US Navy Fears China’s New Defense System in Venezuela     12 mins

 

Posted by: Don Firineach | Nov 27 2025 3:03 utc | 202

We talk so much about the weapons and so little about the warriors
.today my father in law is having hear surgery 
 He joined Mao’s army at 26 and rose through the tanks to general. He fought for China in Five wars 
 Against Japan, against the US in Korea, against the US in Cambodia and in Laos. He shot down 18 IS planes in Laos. He is 93 and a national hero.
He was on boarding school on Wuhan when the civil war stopped the trains and intense fighting in the streets. The schoolboys were told to join an army. But which one ? My father in law asked which army has the better food. The teacher said Mao’s army because they had good relationship with the farmers. So na joined the communist. He is a true warrior and a wonderful person. It wasn’t what gun he used. It was his courage and strength.
When he comes out of hospital we will get his uniform and his medals and he will become a wheelchair warrior 
 I will push.
The Chinese never forgave the Japanese for the rape on Nanjing, not the Americans for the wars in Asia.. the west underestimates the courage of the Chinese warriors past and present.
 

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:06 utc | 203

Sorry for OT. Should have talked about the new Chinese naval ships. Very awesome.

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:07 utc | 204

Posted by: Don Firineach | Nov 27 2025 3:03 utc | 200
 
Thanks, an informative video.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 27 2025 3:21 utc | 205

Bingo @202:
 
Greetings to you,  felicitations and a speedy recovery to your esteemed father-in-law who sounds like a true Chinese hero as awesome as those ships.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 27 2025 3:23 utc | 206

I wonder about some modern Russian subs too that the US has recently experienced as being quite indetectable. 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 27 2025 3:23 utc | 207

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:06 utc | 201
 
“the west underestimates the courage of the Chinese warriors past and present.”
It completely underestimates he intelligence and tenacity of Chinese people in general.
 
Good luck for your father-in law’s surgery too, what a walking textbook of Chinese modern history he must be. 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 27 2025 3:33 utc | 208

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:06 utc | 201
Your father in law sounds like a real man, a warrior!  Much respect from California!  

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 27 2025 3:34 utc | 209

The US had their stealth activated on their sub in the South China Sea. So good it was that they ran into an undersea mountain.
In navy circles it was hugely embarrassing for the Americans. 
That stealth cover program was abandoned. It had cost billions and so secret it was only known as SSC. Meaning submarine stealth cover. Very original code name.
How can the Americans think they are the greatest military on earth?
 

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:40 utc | 210

About how the Chinese treat their veterans compared to America 
 On his birthday every year a small group arrives with fruit and flowers to make sure he is ok. They bring his favourite cake.  
In America they used to get a letter but I think that has stopped now.prale and good food is what sn army runs best on. Not just weapons. General Pengs volunteer army knocked the crap out of America in the Korea War. 
 
US Marines are full of piss and wind. And they tell great stories of their courage. And yes a few are true heros. But not enough toake a strong army. That is why they get neaten so easily 
 
 

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:51 utc | 211

“How can the Americans think they are the greatest military on earth?” 
Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:40 utc | 208
 
HUBRIS 
 
“There is no greater danger than underestimating your opponent.”
老子 
Laozi

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 27 2025 3:51 utc | 212

Canada is going broke by being Woke; it will fall into the Yankees hands in a few years without a shot being fired. Posted by: canuk | Nov 26 2025 20:12 utc | 90
 
You imagine another MAGA victory after Trump’s term expires? Going broke by woke will be their next government, rejoining the rest of West. DEI, fake climate change, transgenders in kindergartens, it will all be making a comeback.

Posted by: Organic | Nov 27 2025 4:02 utc | 213

The Americans have a poor naval performance but Australia is worse. 
The carrier Melbourne was dangerous. Sank a few ships, but on our side. And I remember the supply ship Stalwart. A diesel engine twin screw. They would get it going, send it north till it broke down and then tow it bach. From Garden Island Sydney the best it ever got was Townsville. The small frigates Newcastle and Swan were the only functional ships in the Australian navy for over a decade. 

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 4:02 utc | 214

The Americans have a poor naval performance but Australia is worse. 
The carrier Melbourne was dangerous. Sank a few ships, but on our side. And I remember the supply ship Stalwart. A diesel engine twin screw. They would get it going, send it north till it broke down and then tow it bach. From Garden Island Sydney the best it ever got was Townsville. The small frigates Newcastle and Swan were the only functional ships in the Australian navy for over a decade. 

Posted by: Bingo | Nov 27 2025 4:03 utc | 215

@ Bingo | Nov 27 2025 3:06 utc | 201
 
bingo – i hope your father does okay… blessings to him and you.. 

Posted by: james | Nov 27 2025 4:06 utc | 216

@ Melaleuca | Nov 27 2025 2:40 utc | 195
 
trumps response is to blame biden and say no afgan nationals being accepted into the usa.. didn’t mention anything about this ”jewish” fellow Mayorkas in charge of the nationwide effort to resettle Afghans… 

Posted by: james | Nov 27 2025 4:10 utc | 217

rt headline – 
 
US suspends visa requests from Afghans in response to DC attack
President Donald Trump said the suspect in the shooting of National Guardsmen had entered the country thanks to Biden-era policies

Posted by: james | Nov 27 2025 4:11 utc | 218

“Too bad by gaff got all the attention from my comment, as if that was the most important point. ” Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2025 19:24 utc | 72 I live on that water way and proud of it; and you should have known of the historic Wisconsin iron mines whose ore was/is  shipped all over the world.
——————————————————————————————–
‘Sconnie? I don’t think so. All that ore comes from over there in Minnesota (Duluth). You know, Rocky Taconite and all that.

Posted by: George the Zeroth | Nov 27 2025 4:14 utc | 219

@ WMG | Nov 26 2025 21:35 utc | 121 This book might also be of interest: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trillion-Dollar-Trainwreck-Hollowed-Force/dp/B0D47PD1PS It discusses how the F-35 programme has absorbed so much resource that much of the rest of USAF has been reduced to a second-class force, devoid of meaningful upgrades and development of existing, proven assets.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Nov 26 2025 21:45 utc | 126
=====================================================================
It reminds me of this video:
“F35, The Jet That Ate The Pentagon • BRAVE NEW FILMS (BNF): SECURITY #1”
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTF_a1DuIyE  (length: 8 minutes)

Posted by: WMG | Nov 27 2025 4:42 utc | 220

Posted by: james | Nov 27 2025 4:11 utc | 216
 
Meanwhile Trump has had  Al Qaeda in the White House only a few days ago.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtwwk5cuOvU
 
Yet always ready to use prejudice and racism as the tool of a manipulative demagogue and populist.
 
 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 27 2025 5:31 utc | 221

Thanks Karlof1 for the Chinese warning to Japan. 
 
I read recently the issue is so serious it led to President Xi initiating Chinese first ever phonecall request a US President.
 
Typically, Trump put down to trade talks in his social media post. The Chinese official press release is very different echoing Russian phrases about the preservation of the fruits of the victors against Nazism and Japanese militarism. 

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 27 2025 6:39 utc | 222

Urg! I miss the review option. 
 
to a US President….

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 27 2025 6:41 utc | 223

@101 Paddy “IOW the FREMM frigate is unsuitable given the absolute need for SPY 6”
Why is that an “absolute need” on a frigate.
These are primarily anti-submarine ships.  Convoy escorts.
Why is it absolutely imperative that they have a state of the art air defense radar system?
What the US Navy needs is hulls.  Lots of hulls.  This requirement – this “absolute need” – for SPY 6 has done nothing except ensure that the US Navy doesn’t have those hulls, which means that if it does get into a shooting war then it is not going to have enough hulls to field an effective convoy escort system.
And, furthermore, it will ensure that what grossly-inadequate convoy escort they can scrape together will be comprised of entirely unsuitable for the task ships: Arleigh Burke’s, which are a massive overkill for that task.
In a total war against a peer opponent you can be absolutely certain that this enemy will attempt to destroy US maritime trade.  That is an absolute given.
And what the US Navy needs to do to defeat that effort is to resort to convoys, and that needs an austere warship that can be procured in vast numbers, not some ham-fisted attempt to shoehorn SPY 6 wonder-radars into hulls that are too small to accept them.  
 

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 27 2025 7:05 utc | 224

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 27 2025 1:33 utc | 176

…Back to Venezuela. Has anyone calculated the cost of keeping that many boats, crew and planes showboating? If the US could have attacked, it would have. The Syrian example proved that sanctions alone cannot result in regime change. So all these made up charges of narco terrorism to justify bombing have been pushed through. But the jury is still out if any of that is legal and calls for the military to disobey unlawful orders…

I suppose the cost of exceptional mobilization is far greater than the redeployment from other missions, so that should be factored in.
 
As for Syria, let me point out that the US has, in fact, successfully brought about regime change. Sanctions and diplomatic pressure were the early phase, but also belligerent objectives on their own. Then came civil war, partition and fall of the government. In terms of military losses for the US and allies, the cost was minimal. Also, Israel has seized yet more Syrian territory, including the most prominent position in the area. And as for the significance with future conflicts, there is now a pool of combatants that can be shipped off to new conflict zones.

Posted by: robin | Nov 27 2025 7:10 utc | 225

Here is how amateurish the US MIC has become:   Not only did they create a bloated overpriced F-35 fighter and not only did they create a bloated overpriced Ford-class aircraft carrier, but the dudes who were designing those two boondoggles couldn’t get together and – at the very least – ensure that these two bits of crap could actually operate together.
Nope.  The US Navy has its brand-new super-fighter, but it can’t be launched from its brand-new super-carrier.  Which therefore means that the US Navy’s brand-new super-carrier sails around the place with an air-wing that dates from the 1980s.
It would be like the Pentagon of the 1940s designing the Iowa class battleship and then putting muzzle-loading solid-shot cannons on the f**king thing.
 

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 27 2025 7:16 utc | 226

I have a sailboat with a mast height about 50 feet above the water.I want to drive the sailboat around America, especially all through the interior waterways
 
Posted by: Hot Carl | Nov 26 2025 22:27 utc | 141
 

 
If you want to sail inland waterways re-rig your boat gaff.
 

Posted by: too scents | Nov 27 2025 8:24 utc | 227

The shooter came to the United States in 2021 as part of the program created to bring in Afghans who had worked with or assisted the U.S. government.

It’s possible that the shooter knew the National Guard victims from their deployments in Afghanistan and had been betrayed by them. Honor remains a very big deal in much of the world. 

Posted by: exile | Nov 27 2025 8:35 utc | 228

imagine if you will a collosus whatever be the aaron spelling
a rothschild octopus with tentacles everywhere pulling the goyim  ship down
 
the biggest parasite in history a satanick cancer on humanity.
what was once hidden has slowly been revealed gangs counter gangs and pseudo all working together financial enslavement debt more debt multi generational debt murder inc.
the imf the b i s central bankster black rock vanguard  own the vaccinated  control the wars.
 
the private taking control ownership of the sovereign.
read what the elders of zion said and ask do these protocols ring true

Posted by: normal wisdom | Nov 27 2025 9:02 utc | 229

Looks like the US is loosing its ability to transport their astronauts to the International Space Station too:
 
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gWhAbWnm_oM&pp=ygUHbmFzYSB0dg%3D%3D
 

Posted by: lachaussette | Nov 27 2025 9:13 utc | 230

USans… how much they pay for shitty military gear, how much they pay for shitty healthcare, how much they pay for shitty college, how much they pay for paper-walled real estate, how much they pay for shitty industrial food. They make good cars though (Toyota)… Oh wait.

Posted by: Asian Frog | Nov 27 2025 9:40 utc | 231

Now think of it all in SKILLS and REAL RESOURCES terms instead of $ terms. 
 
It’s pointless thinking in $ terms when $’s are created from thin air. When you think of it in SKILLS and REAL RESOURCES terms you can see what the problems could be.
 
Where do you get the SKILLS from ? 
 
What happens if the majority of the SKILLS of a nation are already fully employed. What happens to other sectors of the economy if SKILLS are taken from these sectors and what does it mean for prices in those other sectors.
 
The same applies for REAL RESOURCES. Who gets first dibs on the real resources, government or business and the banks. What happens to other sectors of the economy and prices if all of the real resources are being used than moved to these projects instead.
 
 
There’s plenty of other scenarios to consider it is called economics. However, looking at the.problem only in $ terms hides the underlying issues. The question is NEVER how are you going to pay for it. It is ALWAYS how are you going to resource it.

Posted by: Clouds Of Alabama | Nov 27 2025 9:45 utc | 232

231
hey you filthy animals would you like to know more
space maybe the final frontier 
but it made in a hollywood basement
 
 
if the system is a lie system hey joe do you really think gold tin foil  bacofoil wrap can survive the van allen belts
 
jared leto has made a home of kubricks old studio  in hollyweird the place the place along with mgm elstree that shot much so called actuality
 

Posted by: normal wisdom | Nov 27 2025 9:48 utc | 233

This was a great success, delivering guaranteed profits to the contractors, who cares whether the US has a functioning navy. I applaud the US MICs efforts to further China’s seaborne advantages – the quicker the batter. I welcome the next ITPS design, “It’s The Profits Stupid”

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Nov 27 2025 9:56 utc | 234

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 27 2025 6:39 utc | 223
[…]
The issue is very serious.
 
A few days after fronthole Japanese PM opened her mouth to say stupid things to look tough in front of all the nonfronthole panty-sniffers in the Japanese house of parliamentary parasites, GlobalTimes published an article that I linked to in the last Open Thread, which ended with the following, very suggestive words: “Those playing with fire on the Taiwan question will get burned.” A clear reference to the nuclear burning of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
 

Japan invites Chinese nukes to visit Nagasaki and Hiroshima:https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202511/1348117.shtmlRead the last sentence.
Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Nov 14 2025 7:08 utc | 308
 

 

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Nov 27 2025 9:59 utc | 235

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 27 2025 1:33 utc | 176

…Back to Venezuela. Has anyone calculated the cost of keeping that many boats, crew and planes showboating? If the US could have attacked, it would have. The Syrian example proved that sanctions alone cannot result in regime change.
 

Exactly! The US ultimate aim is regime change where there is a possibility of leftist governments, especially in South and Central America. The boats may be moving to Honduras next if the leftist Libre wins the general election to remain in power on 30 November.

Posted by: Menz | Nov 27 2025 10:00 utc | 236

This sheds a light on it b,
 
In the UK Nobody knows how much Trident will cost in monetary terms. Funnily enough the right never issue the words ” tax payers money ” when it comes to Trident. They save that bullshit for social programs or infrastructure that would actually improve people’s lives.
 
That is what is so revealing about debates over military spending. When the chips are down the numbers become irrelevant. Not one government minister anywhere has ever said that they can’t bomb Baghdad, Bazra or the Balkans because they don’t have the budget.
 
 
Of course that is because the numbers are indeed largely irrelevant for all government spending. In fact the numbers have become a mechanism in debates to avoid talking about the substance of government intervention in the economy — what the government proposes to use resources and skills for, where it is going to get those resources and skills from, and what the alternative uses are for those resources and skills.
 
 
Just like the article above Ministers were mostly pulling figures out of the air, and that the government had not actually put a figure forward for the monetary cost of Trident. A few MPs actually asked that precise question and didn’t receive an answer.
 
 
That is to be expected, because Trident costs what it costs to produce. Whatever is required to get the job done will be procured and placed at the disposal of the project. The cost, as with any government intervention, has nothing to do with money. If it is available for sale in the government’s denomination, then the government can always purchase it — whether that is missile systems or social housing. And, if it wants to, it can set the price in its own currency — simply by banning or restricting alternative uses of those skills and real resources until it gets what it needs. You see this all the time when a country is at war, but people express surprise when you suggest it at other times.
 
 
The cost is, in fact, the people and resources required to create and build the submarines, crew the submarines and the ancillary services and suppliers that feed into the process. The unions representing these workers rightly asked what else these people would be doing instead if Trident was not renewed, and there were very few answers to be had on that point in the debate. MPs opposed to Trident failed to make any reasonable case for alternative engagement.
 
 
Most MPs opposing the motion talked in terms of money, ( that con trick )  about how the money could be spent on the NHS, social care, or housing. But again the use of figures masked the actual problem. The ship builders on the Clyde, or in Barrow don’t get up in the morning and think “today I’ll be a doctor”. The Navy staff don’t decide that they will build houses on a Thursday instead of piloting boats. It’s a ridiculous notion, and one that is rightly dismissed by the unions as hand-waving.
 
 
But it shows how ill-informed our representatives and the Public  are about the way government spending works. They implicitly rely upon the magic of the market to provide ship builders, navy crew and parts manufacturers with alternative orders and engagements. They assume that people are mutable between professions at the snap of a finger.
 
 
It was down to Scottish National MPs to make an actual case. The engineers engaged in Trident could perhaps be used to create more wind farms, or renew other Navy vessels instead of Trident. But it didn’t seem to be at the scale or intensity require to replace the whole of the Trident proposal. Nobody found any comfort in the suggestions, and I doubt the unions would either.
 
Those opposing Trident failed to win the argument on that point alone. They really had no alternative plan for the people working in the industries. And that always seems to be the case. When government lays people off, there is never a list of private sector employers sat there with cheque books at the ready. Even outsourcing’s open secret is that it is really a way for government to fire people without getting their hands dirty.
 
 
Government never seems to realise that the only way it can fire people is if they are hired and retained by the private sector. If that doesn’t happen then government just goes from paying people to do something, to paying people to do nothing. Hardly sensible.
 
 
So we have learnt a great deal from this debate:
 
 

  • when the chips are down numbers become irrelevant to a government, because they are largely irrelevant. Government spending is a matter of people and stuff. Always is. Always will be.
  • numbers are used by those in charge as a way of avoiding the difficult questions relating to real people and alternative uses.

 

  • government is very willing to deploy vast quantities of people and resources on a huge white elephant project, but refuses to do so on anything more useful to mankind.

 
 
It is time to break down the frame of numbers. It is time to refuse to speak in terms of numbers, and start talking only in terms of people and resources required to get things done. That way we can avoid the nonsense of pretending submarine crew can become surgeons overnight. We can address the actual shortage of skilled staff without believing they will magically pop into being just because you’ve taxed some rich people. And we can debate the actual use of the nation’s resources and ask if what people are currently doing is actually the best thing they could be doing.

Posted by: Clouds Of Alabama | Nov 27 2025 10:01 utc | 237

In 2001, the day before the twin towers were dustified, Donald Rumsfeld told us that the Pentagon couldn’t find 2.3 trillion dollars.
 
In 2017, economist Mark Skidmore told us that he and his team at the University of Michigan, had discovered 21 trillion dollars of ‘unsupported adjustments’ at DOD and HUD.
 
3 or 4 years ago, Skidmore updated his calculations of missing money to 145 trillion dollars.
 
Certainly, if there’s this kind of money sloshing around, ‘unaccounted’ for, it’s not much of a stretch to scent gross financial flatulence at all levels. 
 
I mean, these are sums of money that can literally reshape a world.
 
For better or worse.

Posted by: john | Nov 27 2025 10:07 utc | 238

It’s Not Only about Venezuela: Trump Intends a Wider Domino Effect
by John Perry and Roger D. Harris / November 26th, 2025
 
It’s increasingly obvious that the US military threats against Venezuela have a wider agenda. Their game plan is regime change, but not only in Venezuela. This is the objective – on a longer timescale in some cases – across several of the countries in the Caribbean Basin, aiming to cleanse the region of governments deemed undesirable to Washington.
 
https://dissidentvoice.org/2025/11/its-not-only-about-venezuela-trump-intends-a-wider-domino-effect/#more-163334
 

Posted by: Menz | Nov 27 2025 10:08 utc | 239

It is time to break down the frame of numbers. It is time to refuse to speak in terms of numbers, and start talking only in terms of people and resources required to get things done. That way we can avoid the nonsense of pretending submarine crew can become surgeons overnight. We can address the actual shortage of skilled staff without believing they will magically pop into being just because you’ve taxed some rich people. 
 
You tax rich people to rip both skills and real resources out of their greedy hands. So that they can be put to better use to serve public purpose.
 
You tax rich people to take their influence away and their meddling in politics.
 
You don’t tax rich people to falsely claim they are funding a fully monetary sovereign government that creates money using keystrokes. That’s the scam played by the gangsters. Used to bond the rich to government.
 
 
Now is the time to destroy the tax payer money myths, deficit myths and debt myths stop talking about economic problems in monetary terms and fantasy fiscal holes. Concentrate on the issues in SKILLS and REAL RESOURCES terms. 
 
But we can’t it’s impossible. The “sound money ” brigade have been in charge since the 80’s and need the the tax payer money myths, deficit myths and debt myths and fantasy fiscal holes to be kept alive. To ensure business and the banks get first dibs on both skills and real resources so that the government has to make do with what’s left over.
 
If the truth were ever known about modern money the “sound money” morons would lose the public square debate. The right’s strawmen arguments using their tax payer money myths, deficit myths and debt myths would evaporate and fall like a pack of cards.
 
As psychohistorian says the shit show and bullshit continues until it doesn’t.
 
Until the public finally sees this ” sound money ” shit show of art laffer trickle down and austerity for what it is. The biggest fraud carried out on man kind in the last century.
 
But the right wing populist scam will have to play out first after the sheep and weak minded realise they have been fooled by these gangsters again. As they have been brainwashed to an inch to their lives that the right populists are Jesus and going to save them. How disappointed they are going to be. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Posted by: Clouds Of Alabama | Nov 27 2025 10:29 utc | 240

A few days after fronthole Japanese PM opened her mouth to say stupid things to look tough in front of all the nonfronthole panty-sniffers in the Japanese house of parliamentary parasites, GlobalTimes published an article that I linked to in the last Open Thread, which ended with the following, very suggestive words: “Those playing with fire on the Taiwan question will get burned.” Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Nov 27 2025 9:59 utc | 236
 
But what did you expect a Chinese site to write? Of course they’re the best of the best but all they do in real life is publish animations. Probably inspired by Ukr and their use of Arma 3 gameplay footage which they said it’s real even though it obviously looked like a game. 
Xi won’t do anything against US or Japan, too late now. Exactly like Putin who still can’t process 2014 and its consequences. He will say things for his population to hear but no actions. All Xi had to do is act when the smo was starting, when the Nato did not know what is happening exactly. He pissed his pants but Bibi saw the once in a few hundreds of years opportunity to rule the planet. when everyone else is retarded, you don’t have to be smart and still always win. Now Xi has American troops in Taiwan, ships everywhere and new bases in Japan. One unapproved fart and he gets fried and his toys might not even reach US. He surely knows Taiwan is gone because he is replacing their factories and products as fast as he can while Trumpy is doing the same thing by moving them out of Taiwan and into US, using Taiwan’s money of course, to prepare for their kamikaze moment.  Then US will watch another pair of losers fighting and crying at UN for help and begging US for piss plans.

Posted by: rk | Nov 27 2025 10:59 utc | 241

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Nov 26 2025 20:56 utc | 112
 
Jams O’Donnell – the Ajax procurement problems might not be that significant, apart from the harmful effect they have on the crews.  And apart from the fact that it’s just another standard boondoggle.   Even if the design and construction of these machines were satisfactory that still leaves open the question of how useful this equipment is in the first place.  Dr North:-
 
“Since then, of course, we have had the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which, with the advent of the cheap FPV “kamikaze” drone, has revolutionised warfare in a way that could not have been predicted even as late as 2014, and certainly not back in 2004 when the vehicle role and capabilities were defined.
 
“Some have argued that the vehicle’s additional armour would give it greater protection from drones then most armoured vehicles currently fielded, but this does not take account of the integrated Russian anti-armour measures.
 
“These are highly sophisticated, relying on a multi-layer combination of anti-tank mines, guided 152mm artillery munitions, and anti-tank guided missiles, which can be launched from the ground or, at long range, from helicopters flying in safe territory beyond the forward edge of the battle area, as well as a variety of attack drones.
 
“On a battlefield under constant and intense surveillance, a vehicle such as the Ajax, with a huge thermal, acoustic and radar signature, would be picked up within minutes of making an appearance and would be singled out for sustained attack as a priority target.”
 
https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/front-page/defence-the-ajax-distraction/
 
Yet all the major powers and all the minor powers who can afford it are turning out similar vulnerable hunks of metal  – land air and naval forces,  all increasingly easy to destroy or incapacitate  and from longer and longer ranges – as if these constraints did not exist!
 
And the Ukrainian war is the worst possible war to take as guidance for future wars.  The Ukrainians don’t have the ability to inflict much damage on Russian rear areas.  The Russians could devastate the entirety of Ukraine, rear areas, cities and all, and bring the war to a halt tomorrow but they choose not to.  They also choose not to attack weapons and ammunition dumps and logistics facilities outside Ukraine.  We’re not really watching any sort of real war over there.  We’re watching, as Peter AU1 pointed out, industrialised disposal of enemy forces and equipment, that in a very limited area and with very tight constraints.
 
These restrictions would not apply were there a war between Russia and Europe, or a war between the West and Russia run out of Europe.  Ports, transport systems, command centres, air bases and maintenance facilities, assembly points,  would be gone.  No need for WWII carpet bombing of cities either.  Food and energy distribution systems and services for those cities are fragile and vulnerable to pinpoint attacks even more crippling.
 
 That is what real war would mean today, not massive armed forces coming up against each other like some modern re-run of WWII.  Especially since any grouping of armed forces with their outmoded hunks of steel  would be lucky to get to a combat zone without getting destroyed on the way in.  And if the Americans were involved, as they’d have to be, they would be similarly vulnerable and would certainly go nuclear once those vulnerabilities were exploited,
 
For all that the crazies in Brussels and Berlin and London are talking war with Russia.  We have to remilitarise and build more tanks and guns and ships.  Military Keynesianism is to haul our derelict economies back to viability.  Who on earth are they trying to fool?
 
Me, and millions upon millions like me.  We are to fall in line behind the crazies, tighten our belts, and man the ramparts for a war that can never be fought.  That is the idiocy that lies behind the boondoggle that is Ajax.

Posted by: English Outsider | Nov 27 2025 11:29 utc | 242

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 27 2025 2:51 utc | 201

China should just state they reserves the right of preemptive strike.

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 27 2025 11:30 utc | 243

So the Imperialist States navy wants “more hulls in the water”, just that.  What’s in the hulls isn’t important at the moment. 

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayastha | Nov 27 2025 12:04 utc | 244

Only a Monty Python script would do the whole boondoggle justice… and then people would think it “too unrealistic”. 

This skit from Utopia captures the Monty Python aspect of Oz policy :
 
Australia’s Defence Policy Explained | Utopia
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgspkxfkS4k
 

Posted by: Kapyong | Nov 27 2025 12:20 utc | 245

Some time ago, someone posted a video of how the MIC process worked. In this particular video it was designing and building the Bradley. Informative, insightful and hilarious.

 
Posted by: Suresh | Nov 27 2025 1:33 utc | 176
 
Pentagon Wars :
 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/
 

Posted by: Kapyong | Nov 27 2025 12:33 utc | 246

The British navy also has lots of problems: leaking radioactive material, raping women, overprized and overengineered gear (often in need of repair), spike protein poisoned soldiers etc.

Posted by: V for Vendetta | Nov 27 2025 12:35 utc | 247

The LCS was probably a good concept to explore, and build prototypes of. I saw a photo of one, with a crew of 46 at the bow. Clearly, they want to explore limited crews in contested waters, a fine idea. These bloated 6,000 man aircraft carriers are now or will shortly become iron coffins, the battleships of olde, not that the MIC will give up on them as they’re profitable. 

Posted by: seer | Nov 27 2025 13:28 utc | 248

Posted by: Clouds Of Alabama | Nov 27 2025 10:01 utc | 238
 
Government never seems to realise that the only way it can fire people is if they are hired and retained by the private sector. If that doesn’t happen then government just goes from paying people to do something, to paying people to do nothing. Hardly sensible.
 
 
<=Not really, government could suck the privatized portions of the private sector back into the government..  For example, government could take ownership, control and possession of the Network infrastructure it gave certain too big to fail companies, it could retract the privately owned energy franchises back into the possession and control of the government; it could take over the shipyards and build ships, it could take over the weapons factories and build weapons, it could take back the federal reserve.. etc. and then reassign those employees or make positions for them.
 
 
This won’t happen because privatization is the very process that denies people the democracies their revolutionaries and politicians promised them. 
 
 
Alternatively it Government cared about the people in the nation it rules, it could invest in and create major new, or restart major old shut down, industries and use the fired government employees to learn the new trades they need to operate the industry. For example, America need steel mills but it is too expensive to start up, yet not nearly as expensive as a government contract to build a airplane that can’t fly or boat that does not float. Another example is these fired government employees could be paid to be the labor forces for building the nations highway system, railway system, and underground tunnel systems, etc..
 
 
 This won’t happen because government does not care about the people it governs.  
 

Posted by: snake | Nov 27 2025 14:50 utc | 249

Karlof: “And just how was the USN going to get their shiny new frigate from land-locked Wisconsin to the ocean? (Yes, Lake Michigan is there but there’s no navigable connection to the Atlantic Ocean.)”

You’ve never heard of the St. Lawrence Seaway? 

Posted by: LawnDart | Nov 27 2025 15:36 utc | 250

“Since then, of course, we have had the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which, with the advent of the cheap FPV “kamikaze” drone, has revolutionised warfare in a way that could not have been predicted even as late as 2014, and certainly not back in 2004 when the vehicle role and capabilities were defined.” – Posted by: English Outsider | Nov 27 2025 11:29 utc | 246
 
I beg to differ. People have been making projections, and dire warnings, since the 1980’s.
 
The only country that got the memo on time was Turkey. Iran caught on. IMO there was poor military engineering by both sides.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 27 2025 16:21 utc | 251

The movie Terminator came out in 1984. You can trust your friends in Hollywood. 
Or the Zionist show Black Mirror (2011) where the hero gets hunted down and killed by robot dogs.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 27 2025 16:24 utc | 252

If, or when, the US attempt to overthrow the Bolivarian government in Venezuela, a defeat of the marine landing forces and destruction of USN warcraft would be devastating to the American hegemonic psyche. An administration that cannot even indict a ham sandwich cannot be expected to invade, occupy, and set up a puppet government of a nation that has enabled its peasantry to self-govern. 

Posted by: Keme | Nov 27 2025 16:44 utc | 253

There’s also RoboCop. And, pertinent, a short story by Stanislaw Lem where forever-wars are being handled by robots solely – then the people decide they have enough of the destruction, and assign a strip for land for the robo wars to be carried out there. After a while, they decide to move the warring to the moon. They do, and then forget about the robots on the moon, who carry on doing their thing … and then after a while come back to invade earth.
 
But that’s all fiction. It will be a task for military historians to sort out who knew what when, or should have known. One of the early concepts dating back to the eighties I found fascinating is Die Drohne Antiradar, much similar to the Shahed. The concept worked, but the design was stopped after the end of block confrontation in 91.

Posted by: persiflo | Nov 27 2025 16:45 utc | 254

Posted by: Mindless Rules | Nov 27 2025 0:12 utc | 167
 
Thanks, useful list.

Posted by: Rahul | Nov 27 2025 17:19 utc | 255

Dear Barflies
I’m posting weekly updates on the Venezuela situation on my webstite, here
As The Busker writes, may be useful to some.

Posted by: Alex Cox | Nov 27 2025 17:21 utc | 256

To clarify some confusion from earlier in the thread. While it is possible to transit the St. Lawrence Seaway from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic, the US Navy’s plan involved cutting the completed frigates into 4’ by 6.5’ by 2’ blocks and trucking them individually to Oakland CA for reassembly in Norfolk VA.

Posted by: Fred777 | Nov 27 2025 21:30 utc | 257

lol

Posted by: persiflo | Nov 27 2025 21:38 utc | 258

“To clarify some confusion from earlier in the thread. While it is possible to transit the St. Lawrence Seaway from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic, the US Navy’s plan involved cutting the completed frigates into 4’ by 6.5’ by 2’ blocks and trucking them individually to Oakland CA for reassembly in Norfolk VA.”
Fred777@21:30
 
Crazy sounding scheme – they plan on glueing it back together? Or will it be deployed in  pieces to increase survivability?
It’s like importing sand into a desert – oh wait a  minute…..
 
 
 

Posted by: will moon | Nov 27 2025 22:54 utc | 259

Brian Berletic: Japan Eagerly Fills Role As US East Asia ‘Ukraine’
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ateBkqi9A
 
“Just as Ukraine presented Russia with an escalated, even existential threat to its national security then, an increasingly aggressive Japan removing the constraints place on it following its last invasion of China during WWII, presenting an escalating, even existential threat to China’s national security today…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 28 2025 3:27 utc | 260

The US Navy, even with its current low ship count is still by far the class of the world. Who else has the carriers or nuke subs to compare?  Add onto that a history of deployed blue water operations, far far from country of origin that is unlike any other.
 
I served for a couple decades in it. You are a German who has no concept of expeditionary warfare or multi ocean operations. 
 
Yes…we can’t control everything, can’t be the policeman of the world. And true power depends on control of land. But if you are just looking at navies, the USA is the only Mahanian force remaining. 

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 28 2025 8:07 utc | 261

Add onto that a history of deployed blue water operations, far far from country of origin that is unlike any other.

de civilizing peasant nations.  cudos, cudos!
tell: which war did the US really win militarily?
 

Posted by: MAKK | Nov 28 2025 18:48 utc | 262

Now think of it all in SKILLS and REAL RESOURCES terms instead of $ terms.
 
Posted by: Clouds Of Alabama | Nov 27 2025 9:45 utc | 233

 
And that’s exactly the reason people go to the trouble of pricing things in terms of ounces of Gold and/or Silver … because REAL RESOURCES … just like you said.
 
You might be finally getting it, although it could take a bit longer before you get to the point of recognizing someone else’s point of view.

Posted by: Tel | Nov 28 2025 19:21 utc | 263

It’s Not Only about Venezuela: Trump Intends a Wider Domino Effect by John Perry and Roger D. Harris / November 26th, 2025
 
Posted by: Menz | Nov 27 2025 10:08 utc | 240

I read that … but sounds to me he’s forcing the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, despite some of those pieces coming from another puzzle entirely.
 
Allow me to keep explaining this … the current US involvement in Venezuela is about China. The Venezuelan efforts at socialism well and truly failed and Maduro ran his country into the ground like a bus driver going off-road halfway up the side of a mountain and hitting every bump on his way to the bottom of the ravine.
 
However, while Washington was patiently waiting for Venezuela to muddle around figuring out that they needed to try something different … along comes China and bails out Maduro with fresh, shiny new oil infrastructure, long term contracts and a financial lifeline. Well, well, that’s a very different story from Washington’s perspective, now innit? Once Beijing owns Maduro, there’s a chance Venezuela as a Chinese vassal might actually be somewhat successful … at least until the oil runs out, and that might be a while.
 
The job of the US Navy is keeping China out.
 
They may also be doing target practice on smugglers and speedboats (which are a different shape to fishing boats BTW, but I digress) … that’s just to keep the Navy guys occupied … and perhaps a little message to the Chinese that this is a bit serious.

Posted by: Tel | Nov 28 2025 19:50 utc | 264

@ Tel | Nov 28 2025 19:50 utc | 268 who wrote

The Venezuelan efforts at socialism well and truly failed and Maduro ran his country into the ground like a bus driver going off-road halfway up the side of a mountain and hitting every bump on his way to the bottom of the ravine.

 
Your story is interesting but you forgot the empire financial jackboot context within which Venezuela was run into the ground…..have a nice life.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 29 2025 2:51 utc | 265

@ Tel | Nov 28 2025 19:50 utc | 268 who wrote
 
Dunning Kruger at its best.
Know nothing but expound an opinionated stance.

Posted by: MAKK | Nov 29 2025 11:01 utc | 266

Here’s another link to the RAND document.  https://www.girardslaw.com/library/Stabilizing-US-China-Rivalry.pdf

Posted by: JohnOnKaui | Dec 2 2025 16:25 utc | 267