Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 22, 2025
Kellogg Fired Over Leaking 28-Point Plan – Proposal Designed To Trap Putin

It seems that Keith Kellogg, Trump’s special envoy to Ukraine, got fired over leaking news of the 28-point ‘peace plan’. Let’s follow the traces.

On Tuesday the 18th November someone ‘leaked’ to Axios reporter Barak Ravid who then wrote the first story of Trump’s new plan for Ukraine.

Scoop: U.S. secretly drafting new plan to end Ukraine war

The plan’s 28 points fall into four general buckets, sources tell Axios: peace in Ukraine, security guarantees, security in Europe, and future U.S. relations with Russia and Ukraine.

Trump’s envoy Steve Witkoff is leading the drafting of the plan and has discussed it extensively with Russian envoy Kirill Dmitriev, a U.S. official said.

Shortly thereafter Steve Witkoff made a mistake on Twitter when he sent a response meant for a private direct message to the public side of his account. He soon deleted it but someone had already taken a screenshot.


bigger
On Thursday, the 20th of November, the New York Post mentioned it:

Senior US officials confirm details of 28-point plan to end Ukraine war

The [Marco Rubio] comment came after Axios on Tuesday reported a deal had been reached, citing Putin henchman Kirill Dmitriev, who claimed he worked on the plan with Witkoff.

Senior US officials believe Dmitriev leaked the plan to Axios as a way to put their “their POV out there first [because] it seemed like they were winning,” one of the officials said. “This is just a tit for tat. Always has been.”

Witkoff appeared to have surmised the same in a quickly deleted post to X in response to the article Tuesday night.

“He must have got this from K,” Witkoff wrote of the Axios author, Barak Ravid — apparently meaning to send it as a DM referring to Dmitriev by his first initial.

I seriously doubt that the “K” Witkoff mentions was Kirill Dmitriev. Dimitriev is not a Washington insider. He is unlikely to leak anything to an Israeli mouthpiece at Axios.

Another “K”, intimately involve in all things Kiev is General Keith Kellogg. When the leak happened he still was Trump’s special envoy to Kiev and will have had knowledge of the plan.

A day later after the leak to Axios Kellogg got fired. As Reuters reported on Wednesday:

Exclusive: Trump’s Ukraine envoy Kellogg to leave post in January, sources say

WASHINGTON, Nov 19 (Reuters) – U.S. President Donald Trump’s Special Envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, has told associates he plans to leave the administration in January, four sources told Reuters, a departure that would mean the loss of a key advocate for Ukraine in the Trump administration.

Special presidential envoy is a temporary designation, and such envoys in theory must be confirmed by the Senate to stay in their positions past 360 days. Kellogg has indicated that January would be a natural departure point, given existing legislation, said the sources, who requested anonymity to discuss private conversations.

His departure will be unwelcome news in Kyiv. The retired lieutenant general was widely viewed by European diplomats, Ukrainians included, as a sympathetic ear in an administration that has at times leaned toward Moscow’s view on the origins of the war in Ukraine.

I doubt that the sources claim to Reuters that Kellogg is leading because of a January deadline. That would be an official reasoning. But The Hill reported on Friday that the White House is dumb on this:

Trump special envoy for Ukraine to leave post

President Trump’s special envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, will depart his position in January, the White House confirmed to The Hill on Thursday, as the president has renewed efforts to end Russia’s war against Kyiv.

The White House did not provide any other details about the reasons for the departure of Kellogg, whose role and influence in the Trump administration elicited mixed reactions.

He was originally appointed in January as special envoy for Russia and Ukraine, and had earlier advocated conditioning U.S. military aid on Kyiv agreeing to participate in peace talks. Kellogg’s profile was downsized to only focusing on Ukraine when Trump brought in Witkoff to serve as a special envoy to Russia.

In his position, Kellogg was viewed as an advocate for Kyiv in an administration that more closely hewed to the Kremlin’s negotiating position.

Anonymous sources to Reuters, and The Hill, say that Kellogg was leaving because time was running out before he would needed Congress confirmation. The point in time for that would be in January.

But if that is so why wouldn’t the White House confirm it?

And if January is the end-date, why was Kellogg’s replacement already named on Friday?

As the Guardian wrote yesterday:

Zelenskyy says Ukraine has impossible choice as Trump pushes plan to end war

A delegation of senior US military officials led by the army secretary, Dan Driscoll, held talks with Zelenskyy on Thursday in Kyiv. Trump has named Driscoll – Vance’s friend and former classmate – as his newest “special representative”. The group of American generals was likely to fly to Moscow at the end of next week to discuss the “peace plan” with the Kremlin, US sources said.

To summarize:

  • The 28-point plan leak to Axios happened on Tuesday.
  • Witkoff texting immediately that “K” was the leaker.
  • On Wednesday Reuters reports that Kellogg is leaving in January.
  • On Thursday The Hill reports that the White House ‘gave no detail’ about his leaving.
  • ‘Senior US officials’ obfuscate the issue in the NY Post by claiming that Witkoff’s “K” meant Kirill Dmitriov.
  • On Friday The Guardian says that Kellogg’s job and title have already been handed over to someone else.

I will bet a 100 in any currency that it was Kellogg who had leaked the plan. Witkoff complained about it to Trump (or Vance). Kellogg got fired with immediate effect. His replacement is already in. Anonymous claims that Kellogg is leaving for other reasons are obfuscations (by Kellogg himself?) and wrong.

Yesterday Dan Driscol, Kellogg’s replacement, was already briefing European ambassadors in Kiev:

The US army secretary Dan Driscoll briefed ambassadors from Nato nations at a meeting in Kyiv late on Friday, after talks with Zelenskyy and taking a phone call from the White House. “No deal is perfect, but it must be done sooner rather than later,” he told them, according to one person who was present.

The mood in the room was sombre, with several European ambassadors questioning the content of the deal and the way in which the US had conducted the negotiations with Russia without keeping allies informed.

“It was a nightmare meeting. It was the ‘you have no cards’ argument again,” said the source, referring to Trump’s claim that Zelenskyy had no cards to play, during a contentious White House meeting back in February.

Alastair Crooke, who has personal experience in hardcore diplomacy, thinks that the 28-point plan is part of an escalation to press Russia into making concessions:

This set of proposals is not likely to be accepted by the Europeans, Russia or even Zelensky. Their purpose is to dictate a completely new start-point to any negotiation. Any Russian concessions stipulated in the text will be ‘pocketed’ by the US, whilst the rug will be pulled on Russia’s ‘stated principles’. The pressures on Russia will escalate.

In fact, escalation has already begun. Coinciding with publication of the proposals, four long-range US-supplied and targeted ATACMS were fired deep into Russian pre-2014 territory at Voronezh, which is where Russia’s over-the-horizon strategic radars are situated. All were shot down, and Russian Iksander missiles immediately destroyed the launch platforms and killed the 10 launch operators.

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent has threatened yet more sanctions for Russia, and Trump has indicated that he is ok with Senator Lindsay Graham’s 500% sanctions proposal for those trading with Russia – provided that he, Trump, has complete discretion over the new sanctions package.

The overall aim to these proposals clearly is to corner Putin, and push him off his fundamental principles — such as his insistence on eliminating the root causes to the conflict, and not just the symptoms. There is no hint in this paper of any recognition of root causes [expansion of NATO and missile emplacements] beyond the vague promise of a “dialogue [that] will be conducted between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation, thereby ensuring global security and increasing opportunities for cooperation and future economic development”.

Blah, blah, blah.

It seems that escalation is ahead. Russia will need to consider how to militarily deter the US effectively, yet without starting up the steps of the escalatory ladder to WW3 …

Comments

Kellogg is 81 years OLD.

Posted by: tucenz | Nov 22 2025 20:19 utc | 101

They Call Me Mister | Nov 22 2025 19:57 utc | 93
 
As Cookies said, Fuck the EU. When it comes to mining and oil drilling, the Americans do have some leading edge tech. At the moment, as per the 28 point plan, the Americans are trying for a joint American Russian security architecture over Europe with Russia as a subservient partner. Europe in this sense is the Europe that runs from the Straits of Gibraltar to the Urals.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 20:19 utc | 102

I don’t know how they can keep thinking they’re going to trick Putin.  Every proposal is just flat out screaming, “We want the time to build up our forces enough to carve up Russia!”  Are they drinking their own pee?

Posted by: nines | Nov 22 2025 20:30 utc | 103

Latvia is discussing abour the need to have nuclear weapons…  LOL!!!
Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 19:36 utc | 84
 

LOL indeed  – they might want to get an air force first so that they can deliver them.
Like the other baltlet states: gobby, pugnacious free-loaders.

Posted by: ChatNPC | Nov 22 2025 20:30 utc | 104

” Those videos come through the russian MoD. Hardcore warnings to the trash that fights for nato.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 19:53 utc | 91
 
Theres absolutely no proof of that as it would be insanely stupid for Russia to do. A war crime is a war crime no matter what justification. Additionally, I’ve seen plenty of videos of Russians dropping drone munitions on troops that are clearly incapacitated. To be fair, its probably due to all the war crimes the Ukrainians have committed over the years, but that still want stand in court. 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:32 utc | 105

Latvia is discussing abour the need to have nuclear weapons…  LOL!!!Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 19:36 utc | 84 

The Baltlet elites, as the Euros and neocons more widely are in meltdown mode.
Their limited brains are incapable of handling Ukraine’s defeat and comprehending the total defeat of Nato. They resort to continuously more fictional and fairytale delusions, convoluted abstractions and explanations to explain to themselves how they can keep believing their pre-installed fantasies and fairytales.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 20:34 utc | 106

The only endgame I see is the Ukrainian army retreating across the Dnieper and every oblast on the east bank joining Russia. At that point it won’t matter if there is ever a peace treaty or the conflict just stops like Korea with both sides technically still at war. Russia will have a wide buffer zone all along its border with Ukraine and territory on the west bank in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. No Ukrainian leader can cede territory without Azov shooting them in the back of the head within 48 hours. Putin cannot cede any of the four oblasts plus crimea or he will be removed from power. So the conflict will go on until 2027 or 2028 until Russia has walled off their entire border and Ukraine reclaiming any territory will take decades of rebuilding and rearming. The only variation I can see of this is NATO escalation in Kaliningrad causing Russia to occupy Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, or NATO escalation in Moldova causing Russia to take Odessa and Mykolaiv. 

Posted by: ts | Nov 22 2025 20:34 utc | 107

Posted by: Avtonom | Nov 22 2025 19:48 utc | 89
30 days to comply, which takes them neatly up to Christmas.
Expect nothing until January then some massively redacted releases.
 

Posted by: ChatNPC | Nov 22 2025 20:34 utc | 108

A war crime is a war crime
Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:32 utc | 105
 
This is no war crime. Read definitions carefully. 

Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 20:36 utc | 109

Posted by: ts | Nov 22 2025 20:34 utc | 107


It could easily take several more years.
 
Pokrovsk is cleaned up now. Zaporozhye will be isolated, Pavlograd will be reached, Slavyansk and Kramatorsk will become cut-off from Kharkov, but it will still take a lot of time to clean them up of AFU/Nato presence.
 
Most likely Ukraine’s remaining army won’t be able to retreat. They are sucked into the losers gambit, throwing good money after bad trying to defend these areas which are already under superior Russian fire control.
 
Behind the Dnieper will be 95 % Nato (that is, French, UK troops). We can only hope Russia causes mass casualty events for these Nato troops even on the right bank of Dnieper. And deny physical use or control to the west of Dnepropetrvosk and Krivoy Rog oblasts at minimum. Perhaps by turning them into no-mans land buffer zones.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 20:39 utc | 110

“I’m wondering if you’re a NATO bot with AI. Given your many posts and the time intervals between your replies, you must have a PC instead of a brain. Otherwise, it’s hard to imagine a human being doing that.
Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 19:10 utc | 64
 
Or our local cat lady has absolutely no life besides spamming on here. So sad indeed.
 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:39 utc | 111

” This is no war crime. Read definitions carefully. 
Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 20:36 utc | 109
 
Cool, I’ll play along. How is killing an unarmed, heavily wounded, and tied up POW not a war crime ? 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:41 utc | 112

If it was Kellogg that leaked the plan (highly plausible, going by @b’s topic setter) it doesn’t say much about his judgement if he thought the plan was in a fit state to leak.
 
The earlier thread pulled it apart, and if us humble barflies can do that, then the Russians will fillet it, put it through the mincer and serve it up to the US as tasty beefburger.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Nov 22 2025 20:44 utc | 113

@The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:41 utc | 112
First of all, you need to determine whether your terms (“severely bound” and “prisoner of war”) are even applicable. Then read up on who the conventions refer to.(For comparison, see i.e. Karlof’s video link and his comment here)

Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 20:51 utc | 114

The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:41 utc | 112
 
Go back to painting. The only side I have seen do that is the ukro nazi side. I have seen a number of video of ukro nazis killing prisoners who had their hands tied. Of those Kraken were the worst. Like the jews and the Islamic head choppers, the nazis proudly posted their happy snaps to social media.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 20:52 utc | 115

*** As I’ve written before, since the Outlaw US Empire started the war it will need to be one of the signatories on the surrender document, which will then IMO need to be ratified by the Senate, where it possible faces defeat since a 2/3s majority is required. The Rada will also need to approve, IMO. ***
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 22 2025 20:00 utc | 94
 
Certainly one of the bargaining points Russia has in its arsenal – for example that point 2 (“A comprehensive and comprehensive [sic] non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.”), as the embodiment of a new security architecture, requires a treaty. Many of the other point could be horned into that shoe. So Russia can take all the time it wants in negotiation. But most of the plan as written skirts away from a treaty being a “deliverable” – the deliverables are up to Europe and “NATO”. Democrats would sooner evaporate into piles of sand before permitting a Trump victory. So practically a treaty will not happen.
 
One thing is certain, however, Mr. Karlof1, there will be no hint of “surrender” or that any action has been taken “since the Outlaw Empire started the war,” no matter how true it is (which it is) that the starting by US is a “root cause.” Not during this administration anyway. More importantly than who is in the president’s chair is whether the Blob that is increasingly devoid of responsible adults would allow it. So, no, that type of surrender won’t happen without earthquakes and hurricanes. 
 
Personally, I am disappointed that all this is not heading more directly for a Yalta 2 type solution that focuses squarely on clandestine USAID style operations. The kind of capitulation that would require – widespread acceptance of the narrative that clandestine regime change operations are the antithesis of self determination and directly causes the death of millions of men and the corrupt theft of billions of $ – just does not have a direct path here. 

Posted by: frithguild | Nov 22 2025 20:55 utc | 116

Scott Ritter: GAME OVER Zelensky as Trump’s Peace Deal Collapses, Russia Breaks NATO
 

Scott Ritter breaks down how Trump’s “peace deal” has triggered massive panic as Zelensky & European NATO countries try to stop the bleeding from Russia’s coming victory in Ukraine.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR22SwHnLx0

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 20:55 utc | 117

@NemesisCalling
“That reality: Ukraine is existential for the elite in the west.”
 
 
“It cannot be stressed enough that without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be an empire, but with Ukraine suborned and then subordinated, Russia automatically becomes an empire.”
― Zbigniew Brzeziński, Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power

Posted by: Apollyon | Nov 22 2025 21:00 utc | 118

Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Nov 22 2025 20:44 utc | 113
 
Cornflakes…. he was part of the old school neo-con that operated on ‘leaks’. Trump and associates have been trying to patch leaks in the sinking ship. Stinking ship may be a better term but whatever.
 
It is interesting to watch Trump. He holds a few low cards and is trying to bluff Putin. Very much a high stakes poker game. Or perhaps Russian roulette on the American part.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 21:02 utc | 119

Marjorie Taylor Greene will resign. Bye bya maga. 
Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 19:29 utc | 78
 
I am constantly amazed at how Trump gets away with using stochastic terrorism against those he hates or who publicly disagrees with him. No other politician in the West is allowed to get away with it.

Posted by: Menz | Nov 22 2025 21:15 utc | 120

Trump Says His Peace Plan Not Final Offer
to Ukraine
(Sputnik) – The US-drafted peace plan is not a final offer to Ukraine, US President Donald Trump said on Saturday.

“No, not my final offer,” Trump told reporters at the White House when asked whether his offer was final for Kiev.
https://sputnikglobe.com/20251122/trump-says-his-peace-plan-not-final-offer-to-ukraine-1123156817.html

Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 21:19 utc | 121

frithguild | Nov 22 2025 20:55 utc | 116
 
Karlof1 hit the nail on the head in noting the Putin characteristics. I don’t see much in history that gives a heads up as to the ending of this great game. For us within the Anglo hegemonic empire, we live in a collapsed society. 
 
The insanity of the woke ideology is widespread in the west. The same insanity as any religious extremist. The bimbos and banker of the EU….. Banker Macrons faggot Olympics, Merz the banker boy making nazi Germany great again…. von lying with her deleted Pfizer jab messages, the Estonian bimbo….
 
Bojo, Truss with Lavrov – Lavrov played with that dumb bitch like a little boy pulling the wings off flies – Starmer
 
When Putin was asked about Trump, he simply said Trump is returning the US to normalcy.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 21:20 utc | 122

Alexander Mercouris: ‘Fast Russian Advance’
 
https://www.youtube.com/@AlexMercouris/videos
 
“Putin says US plan basis for talks.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 22 2025 21:20 utc | 123

Once again a stupid plan that has little traction with Russia turns into a comedy of errors and an opportunity for the Orange man to say “you’re fired” – that’s all he has ever done in his life and all he is capable of doing. Yesterday some people inferred Putin was g0ing to accept the agreement as if he was weak, but he has already said said that their would have to be changes made to the US agreement. Russia cannot accept any sincerity nor competence from Trump or Zelensky and will just continue eroding Ukrainian territory. The US administration is a circus that resembles an asylum run by lunatics.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 22 2025 21:24 utc | 124

 The US administration is a circus that resembles an asylum run by lunatics.
Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 22 2025 21:24 utc | 124
 
Very much so. At the same time, there is something Putin sees in Trump that he respects. I think that goes back to what Putin said about the late Soviet leadership and Yeltsin. They knew we had to change but did not know how. The is an AI skit on a down and out homeless Trump sitting on the street. Putin buys a hamburger and gives it to Trump then hands him a book titled ‘How to MAGA’.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 21:32 utc | 125

“I am constantly amazed at how Trump gets away with using stochastic terrorism against those he hates or who publicly disagrees with him. No other politician in the West is allowed to get away with it.
Posted by: Menz | Nov 22 2025 21:15 utc | 120
 
Trump took her out at the behest of the “chosen”. She started saying things publicly about them, especially Palestine. Thats a “death sentence” in US politics. They probably gave here an offer she couldnt refuse. 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:32 utc | 126

I will bet a 100 in any currency that it was Kellogg who had leaked the plan.

 
Astute observations. It seems the most plausible interpretation.
 

Alastair Crooke, who has personal experience in hardcore diplomacy, thinks that the 28-point plan is part of an escalation to press Russia into making concessions:

 
That’s silly. Of course the little plan seeks to press Russia into making concessions concessions, as well as it presses the EU and the Ukraines to make concessions, in fact the EU and the Ukraines have to make the most concessions, according to the plan. What was Crooke expecting, that the plan had no concessions for Russia to make?

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Nov 22 2025 21:34 utc | 127

” Go back to painting. The only side I have seen do that is the ukro nazi side. 
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 20:52 utc | 115
 
Amazing logic of an infant. Just because YOU didnt see something that automatically means it doesnt exist. Seriously ? 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:36 utc | 128

” First of all, you need to determine whether your terms (“severely bound” and “prisoner of war”) are even applicable. Then read up on who the conventions refer to.
Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 20:51 utc | 114
 
You should improve your research skills. 
 
” Yes. The Geneva Conventions absolutely apply to the war in Ukraine.
Why they apply

  • Both Ukraine and Russia are parties to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocol I (1977).
  • The conflict between them is an international armed conflict (IAC) under international humanitarian law (IHL).
  • In an IAC, the Geneva Conventions automatically apply, regardless of:

    • which side initiated hostilities,
    • whether a “war” has been formally declared,
    • whether one party denies the other’s legitimacy.

What this means in practice
The Geneva Conventions govern (among other things):

  • Protection of civilians
  • Treatment of prisoners of war (POWs)
  • Care for the wounded and sick
  • Prohibitions on torture, inhumane treatment, hostage-taking
  • Rules on the conduct of hostilities (e.g., distinction, proportionality, humane treatment)

Violations of the Conventions can constitute war crimes, which fall under:

  • National courts,
  • The International Criminal Court (ICC) — Ukraine has accepted ICC jurisdiction.

Additional Protocol I
Both Russia and Ukraine are also parties to Additional Protocol I, which elaborates rules on:

  • Protection of civilian populations,
  • Indiscriminate attacks,
  • Cultural property,
  • Journalists in conflict zones.

Conclusion
Yes — the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol I fully apply to the Ukraine war, binding both Russia and Ukraine in their conduct of hostilities and treatment of persons affected by the conflict. “

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:39 utc | 129

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 22 2025 17:00 utc | 11

       Pretty certain Witkoff leaked the document to Axios. That’s what those Zionists do. All the time!

Posted by: pepe | Nov 22 2025 21:39 utc | 130

“It cannot be stressed enough that without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be an empire, but with Ukraine suborned and then subordinated, Russia automatically becomes an empire.”― Zbigniew Brzeziński, Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power

 
This famous quote is more of a statement than an actual argument, so I went and looked up what Zbig had to say in the book. Apparently he thinks that the triangle of Western, Slavic and Turkic worlds is not defined by geological boundaries; hence the onus when competing for influence is about politically connecting the various peoples to a weighty axis of power. True to his self, he views this process mostly as subdueing Ukraine in the case of Russia, and integrating it with a France-Germany-Poland “friendly” axis in the case of the West. Since it is explicitly clear for him that the enlargement of the West is principally a good idea, the considerations my brief skimming discovered are mostly about using Ukrainian (and Belarussian) nationalism to somehow collect those countries into the fold. I found his discussion strangely shallow, but then the war has sharpened many of the underlying questions in the meantime. Here’s an excerpt:
 

Ukraine is a significant European state of some 45 million people, with a strong industry and potentially very productive agriculture. A union with Russia would both enrich Russia and represent a giant step toward the restoration of its imperial sphere, a matter of much nostalgia to some of its leaders. Hence it is likely that the Kremlin will continue to press to join a “common economic space” with Russia, gradually stripping of direct control over its major industrial assets through mergers and takeovers by Russian firms. At the same time, quiet efforts will go on to infiltrate the Ukrainian security services and military command, in order to weaken Ukraine’s ability to protect, when need be, its sovereignty. 
 
Eventually—assuming America’s decline—a passive European response to the absorption of Belarus, not to mention an earlier and successful use of force to intimidate Georgia, could entice the Russian leaders to attempt at some point a more overt reunification. But it would be a very complicated undertaking, perhaps requiring the use of some force and at least a contrived economic crisis within to make a formal union with an economically more resilient Russia more palatable to the Ukrainians. Russia would still risk provoking a belated nationalist reaction, especially from the Ukrainian-speaking west and center of the country.

 
 
More at the link. As a note from this armchair shrink, Zbig seems to exhibit a huge on focus on power in his analysis of the dynamics; this is not necessarily strategical brilliance.

 

Posted by: persiflo | Nov 22 2025 21:45 utc | 131

When the Titanic was sinking not many people spent much time trying to figure out who did what to cause the catastrophe. Most just wanted to get off the ship.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 22 2025 21:46 utc | 132

@ The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:39 utc | 129
Mercenaries are not included. And see Karlof’s video.

Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 21:46 utc | 133

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:32 utc | 126
 
Agree with you on the “chosen”
She is as toxic as the rest of her Brethren in Washington. I remember her supporting the execution of prominent Democrats in the lead up to being elected to Congress.

Posted by: Menz | Nov 22 2025 21:48 utc | 134

Ukraine’s foreign mercenary legion is being dissolved. All foreign mercenaries are now sent to the front line with Ukrainian troops.
 
Sounds like an offering for God for RUAF, enabling them to hit more Nato potential.
 
https://en.topwar.ru/274113-naemnikov-otpravljajut-v-okopy-vmeste-s-vsu-kiev-reformiruet-inostrannyj-legion.html

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 21:50 utc | 135

Zbig seems to exhibit a huge on focus on power in his analysis of the dynamics
This is very typical amongst geopolitical philosophers (including those here), though also the formative era (say of the 70s) of his thinking involved heaps of voices musings about power structures and the like, throughout the intellectual milieus (think tanks and academia). 

Posted by: Call it what u will | Nov 22 2025 21:53 utc | 136

“You’re fired”
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K3ebU8SYJ0E

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 22 2025 21:53 utc | 137

Thanks b and thanks to Karlof1 for VVP’s reply to the “28 points”.
 
Kellogg’s firing means Russia now has firm confirmation of where the US is trying to go with these “negotiations”.
 
VVP’s reply is vague and doesn’t address any points directly because Mr Lavrov does all of  Russia’s demands  negotiations. 
 
There’s no panic in Russia because the Europeans and 404 regime will not agree to those points or try and modify them. 
 
Even if the 404 regime agrees, Russia can still reject them in the “negotiations”.
 
The Supreme Commander of the Russian Armed Forces increasingly appearing in military uniform is a message that Russia’s escalation will be SMO to open warfare.
 
 

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 22 2025 21:59 utc | 138

” Mercenaries are not included. And see Karlof’s video.
Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 21:46 utc | 133
 
Thers no way a drone operators know who’s a mercenary or who’s a regular Ukrainian soldier. They all wear the same yellow arm bands and unforms. Granted, non-White mercs might be identifiable, but I didnt notice any in the videos I’ve seen.  
War crimes happen in all wars by all the sides, its inevitable in that kind of environment. They mainly only get investigated/ punished if they were committed by the losing side or if the winning side had on official policy supporting them or turned a blind eye and that they were so egregious they had to be acted upon. This is exactly why one of Trump’s peace plan points was a total amnesty for all sides. Both sides prefer not to have trials after the war is over.  
I believe the Ukie side started the war crime,  ball rolling, but once vengeance kicks the blood flows on both sides. 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:59 utc | 139

*** VVP’s reply is vague and doesn’t address any points directly because Mr Lavrov does all of Russia’s demands negotiations. ***
Posted by: Suresh | Nov 22 2025 21:59 utc | 138
 
Glittering generalities as a response to glittering generalities. The world’s attention is riveted – an Eye of Horus scenario.  The propaganda opportunities abound. 

Posted by: frithguild | Nov 22 2025 22:19 utc | 140

 Glittering generalities as a response to glittering generalities. The world’s attention is riveted – an Eye of Horus scenario.  The propaganda opportunities abound. 
Posted by: frithguild | Nov 22 2025 22:19 utc | 140

That’s right. Vague questions get vague answers.
In the case of Ukraine, nothing changes. EU elites get what they want, a more comprehensive Russian victory.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 22:21 utc | 141

The painter | Nov 22 2025 21:39 utc | 129
 
With all that bold, are you trying to do a Lavrovs dog? It’s like a flasher opening his overcoat to an old woman sitting on a park bench.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 22:26 utc | 142

What I term as neutral Ukraine.
 
Resident
We constantly write about how it was first Minsk, then Istanbul and later Istanbul-2, but Zelensky under the pressure of globalists refused any conditions. Further, the situation may worsen, only an idiot does not know the situation on the front, what to do when Slavyansk falls? Who will defend the Kharkiv and Poltava region? About the Zaporozhye region can already be forgotten, in a month or two the enemy will be at the regional center.
If Zelensky does not sign a peace agreement, Ukraine will face even worse conditions. This was stated by US representatives to NATO allies at yesterday’s meeting in Kyiv, according to The Guardian.
American officials want to push Zelensky to sign the document in the coming days. “No deal is perfect, but it needs to be done as soon as possible,” American General Driscoll told the audience.
In response, “several European ambassadors questioned the content of the deal and the way the United States negotiated with Russia without informing its allies.” “It was a nightmare meeting,” the newspaper source added.
Driscoll declined to comment on whether the 28 points published in the press were accurate at the meeting. “Some things are important, some are just decoration, and we’ve focused on the things that are really important,” he said, according to the source.
Driscoll defended this, saying it made the process more manageable. “President Trump wants peace now. The more cooks in the kitchen, the harder it is to manage,” he said, according to the source present.
He was supported by the interim chargé d’affaires for Ukraine, Julie Davis. She told other diplomats that despite the harsh terms of the deal for Ukraine, she had no choice but to accept Trump’s offer or face worse conditions in the future. “The deal doesn’t get any better, it gets worse,” Davis said.
When asked why Kiev should be forced to cede territory in the east that Russian forces have been unable to capture for 11 years, U.S. officials responded that the deal was “beneficial for Ukraine.” They stated that Trump and Zelensky would sit down and sign the document “for the sake of peace.”
 

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 22:31 utc | 143

Those videos come through the russian MoD. Hardcore warnings to the trash that fights for nato.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 19:53 utc | 91
 
Do you have the link for the MoD release? I saw the last two recent videos through a German telegram channel.
 
And now there is a footage (30 sec.) of a Russian special operation when a team ambushed an English speaking ukronazi patrol.
“a fucking trap… aaaah…. get down… aaahhhh….   nooo ….” are the last things heard uttered in an yankee accent before his hand fell.
The Russian soldier eliminated them all with a pistol.
The footage was recovered from the body of the yankee.
 

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:34 utc | 144

I think it is a case of Graham/Trump playing Gay-War-Pig Cop / Bungling-Narcissist Cop against Putin. I sense Putin finds the skit somewhat useful and somewhat troublesome and somewhat amusing. The west is devolving into mud wrestling corrupt servants of oligarchs.

Posted by: jared | Nov 22 2025 22:36 utc | 145

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 21:50 utc | 135
 
See:
Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 19:34 utc | 83

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:39 utc | 146

“With all that bold, are you trying to do a Lavrovs dog? It’s like a flasher opening his overcoat to an old woman sitting on a park bench.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 22:26 utc | 142
 
 
That’s you attempt at a retort to the information I posted? Weak sauce. 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 22:41 utc | 147

Theres absolutely no proof of that as it would be insanely stupid for Russia to do.
Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 20:32 utc | 105
 
The video does exist.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:41 utc | 148

Zvanovka to the south of Seversk was liberated.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:42 utc | 149

I got Zbig’s full book from annas-archive.org now and am skimming through … it sounds a bit dated here and there, but is still interesting; sometimes because of that. For instance the passage below – I believe this discussion employs copious sugar-coating for the rhetoric of complete Western domination, while I have rarely tasted the bitter truth anyway more pronounced than here:

 
Russia is still unable to come to terms with its loss of empire, is fearful of China’s meteoric modernization, and is unclear as to whether it sees its future with Europe or in Eurasia. India’s aspirations for major power status still tend to be measured by its rivalry with China. And Europe has yet to define itself politically while remaining conveniently dependent on American power. A genuinely cooperative effort by all of them to accept joint sacrifices for the sake of collective stability if America’s power were to fade is not likely.

 
This kind of double-speak (assuming it is) also informs the Quislings and bureaucrats of Europe. Cue the question of “believing in one’s own propaganda” …
 
By the way, there is an administrative act on the dissolution of the Soviet Union, called the Alma Ata Declaration. It is very brief, and states that empire is not the way to go, instead we would like to have peaceful cooperation. Signed, x. 
 
Gorbachev, in his 1987 book Perestroika, explains that the Soviet empire wasn’t even economically beneficial. Sounds good, but I read that when I was younger, well before I first saw the Pizza Hut ad.
 
By the way, here is the AI skit with Trump and Putin meeting at a McDonald’s.

Posted by: persiflo | Nov 22 2025 22:43 utc | 150

I am in no hurry, but I see the coming liberation of Seversk as very important. I am waiting it since the liberation of Lisichansk.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:44 utc | 151

My 143 quote. I went through and double spaced all paragraphs before posting. this platform is a pain when it comes to slid blocks of writing.
 
The Russians have very tight opsec. Stuff like that can only come through official channels.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 22:46 utc | 152

… solid blocks of writing

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 22:47 utc | 153

@139 Painter

Putting the ground reality aside for a moment, a president or state cannot grant amnesty from an independent court, only that that state will not prosecute. Individuals or third party will still be able to address the ICC for example.

So this ‘amnesty’ , although a practical matter maybe, does not look or sit well. It is like two war lords saying ‘let’s just brush over all the atrocity’ .

As with field executions (trial required to determine mercenary status)…

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule108

…it sets a very bad precedent, tolerance shifts to permissivenes , moral hazard.

It would be saying ‘those rules don’t count any more’ , except from ‘leaders’ who are to weak to stand up and say ‘We leave the Geneva convention because we want to act as we choose’ .

Instead they corrupt carefully thought out agreed definitions of others, definitions created to help guarantee at least a minimum of dignity and to attempt to minimise suffering, to make anyone or any nation think twice about their actions, to help avoid reckless slaughter or spirals of violence.

When these laws are no more than token, when they are ignored or mocked, political attitudes adapt:

Because there is no courtesy or trust to work with, and no appreciation of human life , left in the political discussion.

Why anyone accepts ignoring these conventions, when it is they (or those they know) and not those accepting or waiving through their violation, who are more likely to face the result of dispensing with them , is … I don’t know … ‘lacking of consideration’ ?

There are lots of ‘occupying others’ who are going to want amnesty as well … US and Russian citizens …

@Peter

Televising executions seems closer to your description… will have to differ on that one I suppose.

Posted by: Ornot | Nov 22 2025 22:47 utc | 154

The Russian army took control of Novoe Zaporozhi. A major enemy defense node  was taken under control.
The right bank of the Haychur River came under control.
 
More than a company from the 110th Motorized Riffle Brigade was destroyed.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:50 utc | 155

There is no such thing as a war crime.
 
There are winners and there are losers. Winners write the histories and persecute the losers.
 
That is how it has always been and always will be.
 
One can commit all manner of evil, but if they win, they get to shape the narrative. That’s what drives the Israelis. They have lost control for now but if they can eradicate the Palestinians, then it will be like a tree falling in a forest. No witnesses, no one with a claim of injury.
 
No one talks about the firebombing of Dresden. No one talks about Abu Ghraib anymore.
 
War crimes and international law are the fig leaves of civilization. Underneath is the same bestial power games men have always played.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 22 2025 22:50 utc | 156

B ends this with the comment, “Russia will need to consider how to militarily deter the US effectively, yet without starting up the steps of the escalatory ladder to WW3.”
Actually, Russia has already settled on how to do that. They are driving ahead with winning on the battlefield, with no pause for talks. As they collapse the Western position, the papers now circulating will be irrelevant and a new reality is created.
The talk by Trump of using the frozen assets effectively undermines the EU idea of taking them now to fund the war, and in that sense this paper helps Putin even if he never sits down to discuss it. It brings forward the moment when the war collapses for lack of funds, which is the only way it can end short of physically over running the Ukrainian army, a longer process that is also now happening.

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Nov 22 2025 22:51 utc | 157

Posted by: Ornot | Nov 22 2025 22:47 utc | 154
 
There is no information about the identity of the 5 drone operators. If they are mercenaries, they are not covered by the Geneva Conventions.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 22 2025 22:54 utc | 158

VVP had his usual reaction : “let’s talk about it”. A very diplomatic way of saying no.

Posted by: Hiro Masamune | Nov 22 2025 22:55 utc | 159

US Officials To Meet EU & Ukraine Representatives in Geneva To Discuss Peace Plan: LIVE UPDATES:
 
https://www.rt.com/news/628109-us-backed-ukraine-peace-plan/
 
“A Russian delegation is not expected to take part, but consultations with American counterparts should be expected ‘very soon’, according to Reuters…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 22 2025 22:56 utc | 160

” Putting the ground reality aside for a moment, a president or state cannot grant amnesty from an independent court, only that that state will not prosecute. Individuals or third party will still be able to address the ICC for example.
Posted by: Ornot | Nov 22 2025 22:47 utc | 154
 
Valid points, However, why haven’t war crimes been brought against the US for its actions in Vietnam, Irag, Afghanistan then ?  Same reason they cant ever be enforced on Russia or any other major power. This amnesty will allow all side just to “move on” and pretend nothing happened. Now if Russia lost, trials and charges would fly against it. This is why “international law” is an illusion as its only enforced against the “weak”. Welcome to the jungle. 

Posted by: The painter | Nov 22 2025 23:00 utc | 161

Kellogg was like a blind guide dog that kept running Trump into the furniture

Posted by: Mark | Nov 22 2025 23:00 utc | 162

You would have to intentionally not pay attention to miss noticing whose side “K” is on. 

Posted by: Pym of Nantucket | Nov 22 2025 23:02 utc | 163

Courts. On the battlefield, patches and insignia are solid proof of what unit an individual is with. Language also.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 23:05 utc | 164

In relation to this, for a background view, I claim that Putin has made mistakes in his relations with Washington. Please see here:
Putin’s Old and Recent Mistakes in Dealing with the West
https://finnandreen.substack.com/p/putins-old-and-recent-mistakes-in
 

Posted by: Finn Andreen | Nov 22 2025 23:05 utc | 165

Thank you for sharing the Berletic comments.  End of story.  Everyone sit back and wait to see what dish the Empire of Chaos serves next.  Holy Indigestion!

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 22 2025 23:06 utc | 166

Overview of front, according to MS:
-RUAF almost controls Stepnogorsk, a hodge podge of AFU reinforcement vehicles trying to drive toward Stepnogorsk are hit by FPV drones
-also attacking Prymorske
-RUAF controls four (!) villages along A85 road north of Gulyapole – Radichne, Novo Zaporozhye, Nechaivka, Danylivka. Very large and long gains within several days
-Gulyapole is definitively cut off
-Gulyapole itself will be attacked soon from eastern side
-Gradual tightening noose of Myrnograd
-RUAF taking over villages W/SW of Konstantinovka
-RUAF captured Zvanovka, south of Seversk
-RUAF completely dominates AFU positions and logistics (two roads) W of Seversk, mostly with FPV drones
-AFU reinforcements and supply to Yampil also heavily disrupted by FPV drones
-These problems most likely will speed up fall of Seversk
-With control of Seversk, RUAF enters operational space for advancing on Slavyansk from the east
-RUAF claims 16 AFU battalions trapped in the Kupyansk encirclement (probably some thousands of troops, practically)

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 23:07 utc | 167

Is the drone operator execution video valid? It might be a PsyOp … Anyway, asks Ornot 154:

Why anyone accepts ignoring these conventions, when it is they (or those they know) and not those accepting or waiving through their violation, who are more likely to face the result of dispensing with them , is … I don’t know … ‘lacking of consideration’ ?

 
Some considerations are made from experience, but not so much principled ground. When a generation forgets about the humane need of protection from the worst of war crimes because they have seen none themselves, they are prone to repeat the mistakes of their forebears. The reverse is also true, from a psychological angle at least. I believe this is how it is possible that LD denies that warcrimes are a thing altogether.
 
The dampening of impact from first-hand reportings of “unusual experiences” in Parapsychology I’ve derived my thought from; it seems to be a fairly typical human liability which may be overcome through ‘culture’, or at least I hope so. The reverse is more of an early childhood or birth type thing. 
 
 

Posted by: persiflo | Nov 22 2025 23:16 utc | 168

persiflo | Nov 22 2025 22:43 utc | 150
 
Poles are the worst of the worst. Ukraine and the Zelensky Jewish mafia gang, all skipping town for safe haven in Israel.
Genocidal Israel the leadership of that gang are mostly Polish jews.
 
Zbig. Polish full spectrum dominance. Evil phantasies the Russians are currently putting down like a rabid dog is put down. A lot of good people have emigrated to America. America has always been like a boom town so the scum of the earth also concentrate there. The saloon owners and card sharps…

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 23:18 utc | 169

Ritter with a brief comment on Kellog.  Then a run-down of European military capacity.    Ritter makes the point that what counts here is the number of men who can be deployed and supported abroad.  Not that many when it comes to the three main European armies.  Set to around 14 mins.
 
https://youtu.be/TR22SwHnLx0?t=856
 
Ritter’s a well-equipped analyst and knows the ground backwards.   It’s a couple of years ago he said the British army was one of the finest.  Very true and it’s a pity more people don’t know that.  But then he spoilt it all by calling it the Benjamin Button of militaries.   That’s true as well but no need to spell it out like that, I thought reproachfully at the time.  So the clip’s only a couple of minutes long.  Well, it doesn’t need to take long, setting out European military capabilities as they are relevant to this theatre. 
 
What Ritter doesn’t go into here is that American military capabilities in this theatre are also skimpy.   One of the shocks of the recent war was that it exposed how skimpy.  A boutique army, was how it used to be described on Colonel’s Lang’s site, and fit more for beating up on goat herders.  In no way fit for this sort of scrap.  I don’t think the Europeans even now have got their heads round that.  The US  military juggernaut they’ve been trying to coax into the war isn’t there any more.
 
And if it could suddenly be magicked into existence it still would do no good.  American air and ground forces would have to be based in Europe.  Soon as the logistics hubs and assembly points in Europe started getting missiled the proxy war chickenhawks of Europe would have a collective heart attack.
 
And as soon as the body bags started coming home to the States the proxy war chickenhawks of Washington would follow suit.  And as the Colonel used to emphasise, the Americans and the Russians can’t fight each other directly anyway.  That  way inevitably lies nuclear.
 
Sums up the entirety of this war.  Squalid and dishonourable.  The politicians and military prancing around as if they were little Napoleons.  But when  it comes down to it it’s the Ukrainians they press to carry on the  fighting.  Barring the mercs and the sheep-dipped who can be sent in unnoticed, and for all the braggadocio, not one of the chickenhawks, not one of the Grahams or the Merz’s or the Starmers,  would dare to send in their own.  How will the historians describe this war, a war in which all the Western powers dared to do was light the fuse and keep a safe distance.  The Chickenhawk War?   The Holocaust of the Proxies?  Can’t guess what terms the historians will use, except they’ll note it as one of the more contemptible episodes in the decline of the West.
 
 
 

Posted by: English Outsider | Nov 22 2025 23:22 utc | 170

Posted by: frithguild | Nov 22 2025 20:55 utc | 116
 
RE:  the U.S. has never declared a war w/ Russia, so there is no need to get the Senate or, more broadly, the Congress to ratify a cessation of hostilities per se
 
<<
 
Thus the importance of procuring the appropriate signatures from Ukraine, whether from the illegitimate president or from the Rada.
 
Because this has been a fig-leaf war for the U.S., there is no need of any official statement, codified in Congress, about how the war ended.  The U.S. never declared war:  no need of a formal statement on concluding it.
 
But the sanctions, however…  If a relief from sanctions is included in the final terms, as agreed-to by Russia, then Congress will have to get on board.  No president can, by Executive Order, nullify some of the sanctions under which Russia labors.  There may be some, however, that DJT can indeed dismiss by Executive Order but not all of them.
 
Note this, though:   if the will of the legislators is mainly to abide by a cessation of hostilities then the Executive Branch, in the person of DJT, can simply ignore the stipulations regarding the Congressionally-imposed sanctions and simply not prosecute them.
 
This has happened in other cases when the federal government has opted not to prosecute Congressionally-imposed laws, and everybody winks at it.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 22 2025 23:40 utc | 171

Here is the video of the Russian soldier executing Ukranian drone operators.
Telegram: View @myLordBebo

Posted by: Siddhartha | Nov 22 2025 23:41 utc | 172

persiflo | Nov 22 2025 23:16 utc | 168
 
Somebody linked a video a day or two back. A Serbian sniper who had been asked by a friend to come to Donbass. There was something he said that struck me. I forget the words he used. He specialised in killing without warning from long range and was very good at it. 
 
I guess very much a Russian or perhaps orthodox way of thinking. First positively identify the bad guys.
 
I watched a bit of video of and internation gang who had been extorting veterans of the SMO. After a long investigation and very positive ID, a special forces type unit did the arrests. The obviously did not take kindly to that gang preying on veterans. Their rights were delivered via kicks to the head and getting choked down.
 
What I have noticed about Russia is that there is always a long and painstaking investigation. When the arrest occurs is when they have rock solid evidence and rock solid id’s. 
 
In some ways Russia is a different place yet a place many western people can relate to to. The Chechens topping the anti Chechen CIA liberals was looked at with nelsons blind eye until one was killed outside the walls of the Kremlin.
 
The cossacks taking to that pink pussy trash with whips. 
 
What is noticeable in the SMO is the level of training, the high degree of self discipline in the Russian forces. On the battlefield now, the ordinary cannon fodder is accorded the geneva convention. For those in extremist units, surrender is not an option.
 

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 23:44 utc | 173

persiflo
 
I would have to add that this has become extremely noticeable since the nato/nazi propaganda foray into Kursk.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 23:45 utc | 174

Given your many posts and the time intervals between your replies, you must have a PC instead of a brain. Otherwise, it’s hard to imagine a human being doing that.
Posted by: smartfox | Nov 22 2025 19:10 utc | 64

 
In a thread of 170 comments, I counted 15 from you, 7 from LD.
 
Reflecting on ourselves is far gentler than learning the hard way through regret.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Nov 22 2025 23:47 utc | 175

Sums up the entirety of this war.  Squalid and dishonourable.  The politicians and military prancing around as if they were little Napoleons.  But when  it comes down to it it’s the Ukrainians they press to carry on the  fighting.  Barring the mercs and the sheep-dipped who can be sent in unnoticed, and for all the braggadocio, not one of the chickenhawks, not one of the Grahams or the Merz’s or the Starmers,  would dare to send in their own.  How will the historians describe this war, a war in which all the Western powers dared to do was light the fuse and keep a safe distance.  The Chickenhawk War?   The Holocaust of the Proxies?  Can’t guess what terms the historians will use, except they’ll note it as one of the more contemptible episodes in the decline of the West.  Posted by: English Outsider | Nov 22 2025 23:22 utc | 170
 
Well put.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 22 2025 23:52 utc | 176

Joint Statement By The Leaders of the Nordic-Baltic Eight
 
https://x.com/SwedishPM/status/1992316656081879345
 
“…We will continue to arm Ukraine and strengthen Europe’s defence to deter further Russian aggression…”
 
Terminally Russophobic barking Baltic chihuahuas.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 22 2025 23:57 utc | 177

-RUAF claims 16 AFU battalions trapped in the Kupyansk encirclement (probably some thousands of troops, practically)
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 22 2025 23:07 utc | 167
 
I’d be surprised if more than 3k, maybe they get to surrender without a bullet to the back
 

Posted by: Newbie | Nov 22 2025 23:58 utc | 178

English Outsider @ 170:
 
“The Holocaust of the Proxies?”
 
Also works well for the Gaza genocide enablers/supporters.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 23 2025 0:04 utc | 179

Any peace plan to end the war in Ukraine should take into account the following:
 
IN 2014 THE UNITED STATES CONDUCTED A COUP IN UKRAINE.
 
In 2014 the United States (aligned with a faction in the Ukrainian government) conducted a coup in Kiev (to replace the democratically elected Yanukovich government which was considered insufficiently pro-Europe).
 
Many in Eastern Ukraine rebelled against this coup-government.
 
A civil war began.
 
The coup-government claimed authority over all of Ukraine
 
and called itself “the Ukrainian government”.
 
The coup-government sent in the military to deal with the eastern rebels.
 
The media claimed, and still claims, that the U.S. backed coup-government had a “right” to all of Ukraine and they champion (vigorously support) a march to the Russian border.
 
WHAT IF THE RUSSIANS HAD CONDUCTED THE COUP IN 2014?
 
Imagine that in 2014 Russia (aligned with a faction in the Ukrainian government) conducted a coup in Kiev (to replace the Yanukovich government which was considered too pro-Europe).
 
Many in Western Ukraine rebelled against this coup-government.
 
A civil war began.
 
The coup-government claimed authority over all of Ukraine
 
and called itself “the Ukrainian government”.
 
The coup-government called in the Russian military to deal with the western rebels.
 
Of course, to be consistent, the media would have to claim that the Russian backed coup-government had a “right” to all of Ukraine and that they championed a march of the Russian military to the Polish border.
 
The important point is that statements such as “Ukraine will not give up any of its land,” and “Zelenski Rejects Giving Land” make no sense.
 
This is because the coup-government, and its successors, never established authority over all of Ukraine.
 
WHAT IF THE CHINESE HAD CONDUCTED THE COUP IN 2014?
 
What if the Chinese (aligned with a leftist/communist faction in the Ukrainian government) had conducted a coup in Kiev. Would this give them authority over all of Ukraine?
 
What is the legal situation?
 
A few notes on the 2014 Coup in Ukraine.
 
A few days before the coup the US Under/Deputy Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, was taped telling US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, why she wanted Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be the prime minister of the coup-government, rather than the boxer Vitali Klitschko who was apparently the favorite for the position.
 
The Russians released the tape to the internet. Some thought this would stop the coup going ahead.
 
However, the coup went ahead, Nuland’s order was carried out, and Yatsenyuk got the job of prime minister.
 
Klitschko got the job of mayor of Kiev.
 
Everyone in sight (except possibly Tyahnybok) was a Jew but you are not allowed to call it a Jew coup.
 
You are allowed to call it a Nazi coup though.
 
All this led directly to the 2014 Ukraine civil war,
 
which led to the 2022 Ukraine-Russia war.

Posted by: John | Nov 23 2025 0:13 utc | 180

@170
 
Thank you for your excellent posts!
 
The Atlanticists/neocons/PNAC (project for new american century/fascist empire) think they can sunder Russian Federation with the death of 1000 cuts by their proxies!  Like “boil the frog slowly from cold water.
 
As if Russia would (one) fall for it or (two) not nuke them til they glowed.
 
Insanity, with good reliable profit/returns from taxpayers’ debt.  They’d also slowly boil the frog of their economies.

Posted by: paddy | Nov 23 2025 0:14 utc | 181

The Rada is against signing the trap plan of Trump.
 
Who would have guessed?

Posted by: Naive | Nov 23 2025 0:19 utc | 182

@159
 
Within hours one way or the other VVP affirmed the objects of the SMO will be achieved.
 
Most of the 28 points will be deleted.
 
I agree VVP wants dialog!  His representatives will likely play the games that were played by both US and Vietnam in Paris from 1968 to 1973.

Posted by: paddy | Nov 23 2025 0:22 utc | 183

History rhyming:
Kerensky,
Zelensky.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 23 2025 0:26 utc | 184

180
 
Bold johnny. Lavrov’s dog or the Wisco kid?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 23 2025 0:27 utc | 185

Why do people take any of this seriously? Every time another ‘peace proposal’ comes up that is going to be brokered by the US it never achieves a thing except endless speculation that takes place in the media as a distraction while the people that need to actually get together to solve the problem don’t actually meet. It’s been going on  all this year with several initiatives that get nowhere. It first started in 2022 when the discussions in Turkiye were thwarted by Boris Johnson. 
 
It reminds me of Israel and Palestine. All my life I’ve heard of ‘peace proposals’ and ‘road maps to peace’ and ‘two state solutions’ from successive US administrations and others, but nothing ever changes.  So why does anyone take such announcements seriously and get into deeply analyzing the details?
 
We are not going to see peace in Ukraine until Russia takes over the country and gets rid of the government. That’s the only reality here.
 
 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 23 2025 0:36 utc | 186

Oh-oh
 
The Pentagon is urging the House to investigate whether Rep. Eugene Vindman (D-Virginia) improperly consulted on behalf of the Ukrainian government before being elected to Congress — a claim the congressman denies and argues is an attempt by the Trump administration to “intimidate” him.
 
Oh-oh
 
In a letter dated Nov. 19, and reviewed by the WaPo, Pentagon General Counsel Earl Matthews alleges that Vindman and his twin brother Alex did not have approval from the U.S. government before seeking to act as “paid brokers” for American defense firms pursuing contracts with Ukraine after Russia’s SMO commenced.
 
Oh-oh
 
But the Vindman twins, who are both retired from the U.S. Army, needed the consent of the Secretary of State and Army Secretary before working on behalf of a foreign government.
 
Oh-oh
 
“If any U.S. military retiree could simply form a ‘consulting firm’ and immediately start providing services to a foreign government without the required secretarial approvals, it would make a mockery of the law,” Earl Matthews wrote in a letter addressed to the House committees on ethics, oversight and armed services.
 
Oh-oh

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 23 2025 0:45 utc | 187

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 23 2025 0:45 utc | 187
 
######
 
If that story doesn’t end with a firing squad (it won’t), then it is just more noise.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 23 2025 0:49 utc | 188

“…it would make a mockery of the law…”
 
Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 23 2025 0:45 utc | 187
 
Why am I not shocked? It seems a rarer thing when the law is actually adhered to these days.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 23 2025 0:56 utc | 189

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 23 2025 0:45 utc | 187
 
What a bunch of losers. All of them. Incredibly stupid to turn ukraine into puppet Nazi Germany and attack Russia like that… with a suspect economy in the US and Uk and, now that it is a failure history will record, they begin to finger their pet vermin for blame and punishment. Very predictable. And so it goes…

Posted by: Saint Jimmy | Nov 23 2025 1:23 utc | 190

persiflo | Nov 22 2025 21:45 utc | 131
Zbigneiw was Polish/ Zionist/ U$.
A 3-for-3 for hatred of Russia.
——-
MTG: The earliest rumour-reports,  before her formal vid posted resignation, were that the lives of her children had been threatened.
Candace Owens has also released a statement over this weekend that the threats to her life have increased.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 23 2025 1:41 utc | 191

Posted by: Siddhartha | Nov 22 2025 23:41 utc | 172
That looked like war.  I have never seen war.  I pray that I don’t.  
All the nice words, books, songs, etc. that talk about it are just words that evaporate. 
I guess a word is vapor when ushered from a human’s mouth.
(hang on for a sec, as I take a drag from my vape…)
But yeah.  Who wouldn’t have whacked them?  I just read War in Val D’Orcia – Iris Origo
War sounds like something I super would prefer to avoid.  
But things happen.  
And fuck Banderite scum.  Along with ___((( 
 
Posted by: English Outsider | Nov 22 2025 23:22 utc | 170
Tournament of the proxies
 

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 23 2025 1:51 utc | 192

Maybe this speaks volumes of a change
https://tass.com/politics/2047317
 
“The administration of US President Donald Trump acknowledges the legitimacy of Russia’s questions regarding the root causes of the conflict in Ukraine, including the “reckless” expansion of NATO and its infrastructure toward Russian borders, Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said in an interview with International Affairs magazine.”

Posted by: Newbie | Nov 23 2025 1:52 utc | 193

Maybe this speaks volumes of a change
https://tass.com/politics/2047317
 
“The administration of US President Donald Trump acknowledges the legitimacy of Russia’s questions regarding the root causes of the conflict in Ukraine, including the “reckless” expansion of NATO and its infrastructure toward Russian borders, Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said in an interview with International Affairs magazine.”

Posted by: Newbie | Nov 23 2025 1:52 utc | 194

EO:

they’ll note it as one of the more contemptible episodes in the decline of the West. 

People of poor character act badly. The West is led by gangs, with gang-land ethics, who steal whatever they can at the point of a gun. Apparently its been that way for many decades, and what’s changed is that it’s all out in the open  now.
 
=== A very interesting point made by Peter, that somehow I never really, fully comprehended until now:
 

America has always been like a boom town so the scum of the earth also concentrate there. The saloon owners and card sharps…

 
While it annoys me to face up to  this,  it’s certainly true in many parts of our society. We Americans have to absorb this reality.
But not all of we  Americans are like this; not  anywhere near  all. MAGA needs some people of character – balanced, ethical, competent, and eloquent people to  lead it. And for that to happen, the citizens have to continue and intensify our mobilization. MAGA was a political gimmick, but it has  the potential to become a powerful rallying point.
 
If Mr. Putin says that Trump is trying to restore normalcy in the US, that can’t really be anything but flattery. Trump is a gangster. How can a gangster lead us to normalcy?

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Nov 23 2025 1:59 utc | 195

Posted by: Newbie | Nov 23 2025 1:52 utc | 194
 
Unless he gets Zelensky to agree with that, which he won’t, it means nothing and it is little security to Russia.
 
Russia will just carry on. 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 23 2025 2:02 utc | 196

EO:
 
Grand Theft Nation.
 
It’s a  systematic effort  to steal entire countries from their citizens. It’s  premeditated, thoroughly prepared-for, and absolutely ruthlessly executed.
 
All under the  artful cover of massive, continuous, lock-stepped propaganda.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Nov 23 2025 2:03 utc | 197

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Nov 23 2025 1:59 utc | 195
 
Yeah. Well said. 

Posted by: Saint Jimmy | Nov 23 2025 2:04 utc | 198

*** It seems a rarer thing when the law is actually adhered to these days.
Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 23 2025 0:56 utc | 189
 
How can you make a mockery of the very thing government uses to mock?

Posted by: frithguild | Nov 23 2025 2:09 utc | 199

I think the real question is Debbie Gibson or Tiffany, which was better?
Seriously, it’s war.  Imperialism, blinded as it is, by its impossible class interests, is convinced the play on Russia is a “Hail Mary” that still might work.  Russia, as I’m sure it will, must simply continue its exquisite, light touch destruction of the enemy.  
May you guide us into a brighter future, Russia/China!

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Nov 23 2025 2:12 utc | 200