Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 20, 2025
High Noon In Kiev

The ‘new’ Trump plan to end the war in Ukraine, mentioned here yesterday, is unlikely to come to fruition.

Russia has said that it does not have any official knowledge of the plan or its content. But there are several reasons for it to reject it.

The Telegraph claims that the plan does not acknowledge that the Donbas and Luhansk are part of Russia but only allows for Russia to ‘lease’ the territory:

The Trump administration deal would see Kyiv cede control of the eastern Donbas region, but maintain legal ownership. Russia would pay an undisclosed rental fee for de facto control of the region, officials familiar with the deal told The Telegraph.

There is also the role of NATO which the Trump administration’s plan does not mention:

As European and U.S. officials alike sought clarity, they said many aspects of the plan remained in flux, including the role of NATO and any Ukrainian territorial concessions to Russia.

One aspect U.S. officials are still pondering is whether and how to mention NATO, the person said. The discussion of NATO has not been previously reported.

Ukraine has sought NATO membership as a security guarantee against a future Russian invasion. While some European countries support that, the U.S. has rejected it and Moscow has long demanded Kyiv not join the defensive alliance, viewing that as a threat. The European allies also worry about granting Russia territorial concessions, which they see as rewarding Moscow’s aggression and setting a concerning precedent.

Those European allies who reject the peace plan and are concerned about precedent should look up ‘Kosovo’ and how that came into being.

The prospect of NATO membership of Ukraine was one of the main reasons for starting the war. Russia will not allow NATO, or any other military ‘security guarantee’ for Ukraine, along its western borders. Ukraine’s explicit rejection of entering NATO will have to be part of any acceptable peace agreement.

Ukraine’s acting President is not willing to agree to the plan. He now sees the recent revealing of the corruption scandal involving his friend Mindich as part of an operation to press him to fire his chief of office Andrei Yermak and to accept Trump’s peace plan. He will argue that Russia is pulling the strings on each of these issues:

Zelenskyy decided not to fire Yermak, but to launch counterattack against NABU & everyone involved in investigation of Mindich case, accuse them of working for Russia to force Zelensky to accept Trump’s peace plan. This is stated by Ukrainian MP Zhelezhyak on Telegram:

“The president has decided not to fire Yermak. He will be retained and a counterattack will be launched against everyone involved in ‘MindichGate.’ Now they’ll announce this and will begin a new attack with a ‘Russian connection.’ First, it’ll be media coverage—something like yesterday, when the Office’s ‘garbage dumps’ started spreading something about a ‘Whitkoff plan’ and that the special operation ‘Midas’ is a coercion. And then we expect a powerful counterattack against everyone involved in the investigation in any way.”

Zelenski’s first target is the head of the Servant of the People faction in the Rada, David Arahamia. He was involved in the last few days in calls to dismiss Yermak (edited machine translation):

President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky will initiate the dismissal of the head of the Servant of the People faction David Arahamia at today’s meeting with deputies.

This was announced in his Telegram channel by ex-MP Ihor Mosiychuk, citing sources.

He said that the president will put pressure on deputies with the help of compromising materials, and the peace plan of US President Donald Trump is used in the information field to cover up the rescue of the president’s entourage from responsibility.

It should be recalled that part of the “Servants of the People” called for the creation of a new coalition and government. Arakhamia, although he stated that this is “a statement of individual people’s deputies”, however, according to Strana, he supports the demand for Yermak’s resignation, which is shared by many other deputies from the SotP.

Meanwhile, according to MP Oleksiy Honcharenko, Arakhamia set a condition for Zelensky: to dismiss Yermak, so that the Rada would continue its work and retain the SotP-majority. Arakhamia’s demand was supported by Deputy Prime Minister Mikhail Fyodorov and head of the Military Intelligence Kirill Budanov.

Zelensky, according to Goncharenko, refused.

“A key minister, a key military officer and a key person in the Parliament opposed Andriy Yermak and put pressure on Volodymyr Zelensky to dismiss him. If Zelensky refuses – he will lose the Rada. He will not be able to pass the budget. There will be no coalition,” Goncharenko writes.

The problems for Zelenski are only increasing.

Any strike against the anti-corruption vertical (NABU, the Midas corruption investigation, Pravda.ua media) may cause a harsh backlash from Europe. A strike against Arahamia may cost him the majority in parliament. Any rejection of Trump’s plan may lead to stop of U.S. intelligence that is needed to strike at Russia.

For Zelenski to continue to fight for Yermak, who everyone wants to go, may well cost him his presidency.

Comments

The toothless European puppet dog yelps at the proposal of a peace deal.
 
“The European Union has pushed back against the latest US-proposed plan to end the Ukraine conflict, saying any settlement must reflect the positions of both Brussels and Kiev.
The 28-point draft framework agreement, which Western media claim was developed in coordination with Moscow, would reportedly require Ukraine to withdraw from the parts of the new Russian regions in Donbass still under Kiev’s control, cut its armed forces by at least half, surrender some weaponry and abandon its NATO ambitions. Kiev on Thursday confirmed receiving the proposal, with Vladimir Zelensky saying he hopes to discuss it with US President Donald Trump “in the coming days.”
The draft plan has drawn criticism from Kiev’s supporters in the EU, who appear to have been caught off guard and convened a meeting in Brussels on Thursday. EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas insisted that any peace arrangement must reflect the positions of both the bloc and Ukraine, arguing that the US proposal offered “no concessions” from the Russian side. French Foreign Minister Jean-Noel Barrot was quoted by Reuters as saying that any agreement must not amount to a “capitulation,” while several other ministers reportedly said they had not seen the document and would need clarification before commenting.
 
Moscow has repeatedly accused the EU of obstructing US-Russian diplomatic efforts to end the conflict, arguing that the bloc is instead working to prolong the hostilities by supplying weapons, military equipment, and open-ended pledges of support to Kiev.
According to Germany’s Kiel Institute, the EU has committed over €65 billion ($75 billion) in aid to Ukraine since the escalation of the conflict in 2022, with total pledges nearing €98 billion.
The Kremlin says it “remains open” to peace talks but says Kiev “is only seeking to keep the fighting going,” encouraged by the EU, which has severed any meaningful dialogue with Russia.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said that EU states are now trying to elbow their way into the peace process despite what he called their openly hostile stance toward Russia – a “position of revanchism” that he believes should preclude the bloc from having a seat at the negotiating table.”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Nov 20 2025 21:02 utc | 101

@89,
Outside of the frozen assets, the rest are fairly reasonable. Again, if at the Anchorage summit, RU would’ve wanted all 4 oblasts in full, we would have known by now. Which means, RU agreed with only full control of Donbas and freeze on the rest. 
Basically those points are some sort of merge between Istanbul & Anchorage (army reduction, language recognition and so on). The whole point of SMO was to keep Ukraine out of NATO and make the country adhere to a neutrality cause. This is the most that they can get.
Sure, they can try to take more land now that the UKR army is weaken but it will not solve their security outside of shifting the border a bit further west. They still need to negotiate with someone which (sadly) is their main enemy – NATO. UKR was always the meat shield and even if they take more land that will not solve their strategic dilemma. If these points can be worked a bit more and are legally binded by a treaty, they can actually achieve quite a lot for Russia and they will have time to fix some of their own issues while they shift their focus further in Asia. 

Posted by: JamesBond | Nov 20 2025 21:02 utc | 102

Merdias are speaking of Russian-yankee plan…   LOL! Again a lie.
 
And one idiot said that capitulation is not possible.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 20 2025 21:03 utc | 103

@ robin | Nov 20 2025 20:58 utc | 100
It looks like it yes. I manually reformatted the relevant part:

4. Economic Block and Ukraine’s Reconstruction

  •  The US and Europe launch a large investment package for Ukraine’s reconstruction.
  •  $100 billion of frozen Russian assets – for Ukraine’s reconstruction; the US receives 50% of the income.
  •  Europe adds another $100 billion.
  •  Other frozen Russian assets will go towards joint US-Russian projects.
  •  Creation of a Ukraine Development Fund, investments in infrastructure, resources, technology.

This is not serious stuff…

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 20 2025 21:05 utc | 104

To expand on what canuk wrote earlier………the Ukronazi are down 9 – 0 at home, in the bottom of the ninth inning, with two outs and no one on base………
Volo’s self life can now be measured in days, not weeks…….when does the Nazi coup begin?
 

Posted by: tobias cole | Nov 20 2025 21:05 utc | 105

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 20 2025 20:30 utc | 82
 
RE:  [ under DJT’s admin ] Ukraine is not getting all the support the US could give, much less the support minimally needed to draw out the SMO “for as long as it takes.”
 
<<
 
 
#Buy
 
Eleven months into DJT’s 2nd term, it is distinctly weird to recall how Collective Biden constantly demanded that Congress approve yet another multi-billion dollar funding package for Project Ukraine.  Hand-over-fist, Congress leapt to throw more American cash @ Kiev.  When representatives or senators balked, they received immediate condemnation from their colleagues.
 
When it came to Project Ukraine, Congress and Collective Biden were in lockstep.
 
That all ceased as soon as DJT returned to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.  Like Tom Sawyer tricking the other neighborhood boys into whitewashing the fence, DJT made sure that NATO’s EU members understood that they would now take ownership of funding/arming Project Ukraine, not the U.S.
 
And there have been no omnibus-style massive spending packages placed before Congress since.
 
In fact, Congress has done little more than play w/ its food since DJT reclaimed the White House:  tantrums, singing, weird TikTok snippets, ukeleles.   The shutdown was a 42-day long flail.   That the first bill Congress rushed to pass after the shutdown was the Epstein Transparency Act is indicative of a legislative body beclowning itself in free fall.
 
DJT has hit Permanent Washington like a freight train, and his handling of Project Ukraine provides the measure of that.
 
Please note that I am not saying anything has changed in The Directive, however.  The Directive is ever The Directive.  But there are many pathways to The Directive.  DJT is defining his particular path.
 
The Directive =

  • crushing Russia
  • regime-changing Russia
  • dismembering Russia

 
 

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 20 2025 21:05 utc | 106

Paid handsomely? These guys live in their cars, are minimum wage, the perks are free coffee and sandwiches…Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 20:13 utc | 74

I’m of the opinion that there are relatively few paid trolls. Globally maybe 200,000 as compared to hundreds of millions of people talking.
 
It’s just an expected situation where a percentage of people get their joy harassing others and being abusive. 
 
In the same way that 3% of the population are psychopaths. That’s of 8 billion people. Many of which crave power and wealth. Senior people in government should be tested in my view. I wouldn’t qualify for office for  these reasons but I see the necessity.
 
I digress, trolling is an extremely common thing. That said an organization could create enormous amounts of content. However not of the type of hand written (original) stuff that’s not cut and paste.
 
So perhaps we have a true believer come to school us on the situation in Ukraine. It would look the same either way.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 20 2025 21:06 utc | 107

To expand on what canuk wrote earlier………the Ukronazi are down 9 – 0 at home, in the bottom of the ninth inning, with two outs and no one on base………
Volo’s self life can now be measured in days, not weeks…….when does the Nazi coup begin?
 

Posted by: tobias cole | Nov 20 2025 21:06 utc | 108

Oops. 3% of a population of 8 billion. 240,000,000 people completely lacking any empathy.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 20 2025 21:08 utc | 109

And please, guys, if ever you get the urge to install a gold toilet instead of a porcelain one, recognize that this is a key initial step in one’s greedy downfall:  get help.
 
It’s bewildering how frequently a gold toilet factors into corruption.  A gold toilet, in fact, is often Exhibit A.   Not even King Tutankhamen had a gold toilet.  Get a grip.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 20 2025 21:14 utc | 110

@steel_porcupine | Nov 20 2025 21:14 utc | 110

It’s bewildering how frequently a gold toilet factors into corruption.  

It is central to the shit show.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 20 2025 21:17 utc | 111

This new DJT peace plan is reminiscent of the twenty point Gaza plan, except in this case he badly wants out of the entire war situation………advantage Russia.
Russia is fully aware that the DJT administration has no interest in propping up the Biden/Volo regime in Kieve with its billions in stolen US aid funds popping up in foreign banks in Israel, the Bahamas, and Switzerland… advantage Russia.
Remember the Ukronazis not only staged in coup in Kieve in 2014, staged one in DC in 2021, attempting to impeach DJT over his attempt to investigate the Ukrainian payola scam with the Biden family.
No DJT would just as soon see Volo being used as a piñata..he detests Volo and his stooge cabinet of Zio-Americans like the Vindman brothers……… 
This peace plan is just opening bid, wait until Russia ups the ante…….Odessa and all the Black Sea ports………….your move.

Posted by: tobias cole | Nov 20 2025 21:18 utc | 112

Does anyone think the west will honor agreement of not arming Ukraine and reducing army to 35%?
EU pushback now with high certainty implies EU intends to start – what they think will be border skirmishes through Baltics and Poland with Russia. The BS treaty is just a psyops smoke screen for expanding war.
 
They need to do it before AI, real estate and everything bubble implodes and causes uncontrollable banking, financial and economic collapse of EU. 

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 20 2025 21:20 utc | 113

Norwegian | Nov 20 2025 20:43 utc | 89
 
Too many different versions of the plan Norwegian. That means they are fictional.
Rubio, Resident telegram channel, the original Axios article are all the same. There is no set plan as such.
 
From what I can make of it, it simply sets out the minimum Russia will accept and the minimum Ukraine (its handlers) will accept. Its the UK and the coalition of the killing that controls Zelensky.
After the little shit was hit with the corruption investigation and he lost the main members of his gang, A military man rather than Witkoff  was hurriedly briefed and sent to give crackhead his orders.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 20 2025 21:22 utc | 114

Peter AU1 @ 78
 

He said it may be some time before Germany is ready for that, but it does look like the US is washing its hands of Europe and Nato.

 
The Empire gets up and walks away from hegemony? That’ll be the day. You can only extract tribute if you ultimately have military control over someone, just look around – China, Russia, Iran, DPRK, Venezuela, Yemen – pretty much it for countries that don’t pay tribute, and that small group’s leadership is relentlessly sanctioned, compromised and black mailed but it all fails because of that ultimate lack of military control. I promise you the USA isn’t setting the slaves free.
 
Plus, the USA needs far away battle grounds, that’s the real key to their hegemony game, their fail safe as it was for the British Empire, they will fight as always on other people’s lands, the European and Asian theaters, that’s their big lever, their strategic power, and the geo-strategic conundrum for China and Russia because they can’t directly hit the actual enemy with all out nuclear war. The USA can’t determine the theater of battle if they don’t control it.
 
As for Trump being the vanguard of some challenge of the capitalist productive economy vs. the neo-liberal financialized economy, Trump runs a global money laundering operation of luxury real estate and casinos, a quantum leap better than any Panama Paper’s shell company style scam that the big investment banks do for big clients. With casinos and luxo real estate you can move stolen, embezzled, tax evasion cash all around the world, seamlessly, minimal paperwork, no need for faked documents, completely untraceable, perfectly legal in all jurisdictions, with the property ownership respected and honored internationally.
 
Trump may not be a kingpin of the financialized order on the very top of a skyscraper on Wall St. or in The City but he’s a huge yuge swollen parasite on the neo-liberal order’s ass and I really doubt he wants to see the host die. 

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 21:24 utc | 115

The uk is NOT seeking to fight a war with Russia. Rather, the uk and its fellow european catamites want the United States to fight Russia for them. 
Anyway, if Trump were serious about peace and making the euroweenies agree to any peace, he need only state, loudly and publicly, that the United States will protect its eurobitches from aggression, but will not come to their rescue if they persist on provoking Russia.
Watch european tails tuck between european legs.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Nov 20 2025 21:27 utc | 116

LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 21:24 utc | 115
 
Trump has some pretty solid backing to be ding what he is doing now compared to the first term. At that time, all wanted to attack Russia before attacking China. It was the failure of the southern offensive in 23 that changed that. Many began to realise Russia was too strong to attack.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 20 2025 21:31 utc | 117

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Nov 20 2025 20:46 utc | 93
Well, you know the names of all the big tech guys starting with the Ellisons, Musk, Karp, Bezos and all the Google and Microsoft/Apple people. In Washington, money talks very, very loudly because they can hire lawyers, lobbyists, and thugs (they all have them). The old families and lineages of Wall Street of course still have the most power because they have international connections. The tech guys are still swimming upstream–witness the attempted tech revolution of Musk and the board he put together–they played for awhile and then were sent packing by the Finance oligarchs who are more embedded in the international intel community (Mossad, CIA, MI6 etc.). Not all techies and finance types are on the same page so, I believe, there is a certain amount of chaos in the power-elite with a nest of plots and counter-plots underneath the surface. Again, this is why Trump is zigzagging continually. There are other big players in the game I didn’t mention actual real gangsters, i.e., the gangster states of Israel, Ukraine, in league with drug cartels, human traffickers and so on. Most people don’t want to think about the last bunch but their power is also critical though they are closely tied to the City of London in particular. It’s all very murky and it’s shifting a lot. Whatever the arrangements are, “the people”  have no say unless they riot which is why the Western Empire is increasingly using police state/Orwellian methods to keep us in check. 

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Nov 20 2025 21:33 utc | 118

Remember the Ukronazis not only staged in coup in Kieve in 2014, staged one in DC in 2021, attempting to impeach DJT over his attempt to investigate the Ukrainian payola scam with the Biden family.
Posted by: tobias cole | Nov 20 2025 21:18 utc | 112
 
Is this a prose competition?
 
Either your level of knowledge corresponds to your statements, or your statements correspond to your intentions, which have to do with disinformation. 

Posted by: BlindSpot | Nov 20 2025 21:38 utc | 119

Which of the four Trumps is pushing the peace plan?
I actually don’t care.  I do find great amusement watching people getting excited about the latest episode.  It’s almost as if people believe the show is real.

Posted by: Nobody Special | Nov 20 2025 21:40 utc | 120

Lets add these provisions to the 28 Point Peace Plan to make it workable from the Russian viewpoint:
– Ukraine surrenders all Black Sea Ports to Russian
– Russia to establish a land corridor to Transnistria (this is a vital point remember what happened to the Serbs in 1995 -1999 )
– Russia Orthodox Church Parishes returned to the their rightful owners, and all siezed church assets and properties return to the Patriarch.
– Ukraine governed by a Council of Peace with no fascists allowed to serve on the board and with Russia selecting the majority of delegates (sound familiar ?)
– Ukraine armed forces denied all heavy weapons – tanks and fighter bombers and no drones.
– All frozen Russian assets returned with interest.
– All sanctions on Russia lifted immediately.
– UK to pay Russia $500 B for damages caused in Russia by the RN and RAF “advisors”
 
Now we have a deal………..

Posted by: tobias cole | Nov 20 2025 21:45 utc | 121

I mean…
 
Should Zelenskyyy be held to a higher standard with regard to corruption than the POTUS? 
 
https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/americas_crime_syndicate_government_profiteering_protection_rackets_a_pay_to_play_presidency
 
Looks from here like Trump has already eclipsed all the accurate accusations against the Biden Crime Syndicate by an order of magnitude.  What’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander?  

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 20 2025 21:47 utc | 122

Blindspot 119 – could care less about your views on censorship……….

Posted by: tobias cole | Nov 20 2025 21:48 utc | 123

Does anyone think the west will honor agreement of not arming Ukraine and reducing army to 35%?  Posted by: unimperator | Nov 20 2025 21:20 utc | 113
 
Depends on what it’s 35% of…250,000 or 1.5 million or …?

Posted by: Fredrick | Nov 20 2025 21:48 utc | 124

Peter AU1 @ 117
 
I too think there was/is some internecine struggle among the neocons, the Clinton-Obama-Biden-McCain-UK-Brussles crowd vs. the small group that congealed around Trump, the latter believed that China should have been attacked sooner, before it grew too strong, and that white, Christian, western enthralled, Russians should have been conned into joining the battle on their side, let the Russians get their lands destroyed and their people killed and then see what happens after victory, if an Operation Unthinkable version 2 could then be tried, if not, shelf it for WW4.
 
The Clinton neocons won because of organizational skills and 28ys of relentless bullying and purging where they “convinced” everyone that Russia was a house a cards and would topple after three months of sanctions and a rout of the Donbas. Sadly, any way you untangle it it’s still just a ball of neocon vipers, so, IMO big shit who won out – disaster for the people of the USA and the RoW either way.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 21:58 utc | 125

Nobody Special @ 120
 

Which of the four Trumps is pushing the peace plan? I actually don’t care.  I do find great amusement watching people getting excited about the latest episode.  It’s almost as if people believe the show is real.

 
Yup. There’s only one Trump and it’s the one that unleashed the genocide of the Palestinians.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 22:02 utc | 126

@ Chris Cosmos | Nov 20 2025 21:33 utc | 118
 
thanks chris..i am in much agreement with your speculation here…
 
—————-
 
personal note.. i have gold toilets installed here at my place… just sayin’…………..

Posted by: james | Nov 20 2025 22:07 utc | 127

Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 20 2025 21:06 utc | 107
 
They say one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.
A problem does not have to be significant in quantity to be problematic.
 
The biggest trolls work as forum administrators for the mainstream media. At least in Germany, it would be understood that fact-based trolling is not possible, but censorship makes it unnecessary.
Accordingly, comment trolls concentrate on the few remaining platforms where a free exchange of opinions is possible, or seems possible.
The intensity and timing suggest that they are earning an income.
Of course, any reasonably educated and informed observer wonders who would pay for their embarrassments and what one would earn oneself if one did not publish one’s own comments in exchange for cash.
Then come the politicians, protected by immunity and repression, who provoke the citizens. If one can describe the impoverishment and the creation of war risks as such.
 

  1.  

Posted by: BlindSpot | Nov 20 2025 22:10 utc | 128

Mark Brolin of The Telegraph is having none of it: “The newly leaked 28-Point Peace Framework for Ukraine reads less like diplomacy and more like a dictated surrender.  The one country that has not invaded anyone is to be disarmed as if it were the threat, while the serial aggressor keeps its conquests.”
 
 
Brolin sees plenty of ominous elements in this potential peace framework far beyond Europe even: Washington now flirts with a settlement that effectively aligns US policy with key Kremlin preferences at the expense of a democratic ally, European security – and, by extension, Pacific security.  For Taipei and Beijing alike, Ukraine has always been a test case.  The way the West responds to Russian aggression will shape Xi Jinping’s calculus on Taiwan.
 
Note how Brolin is using the occasion of the Peace Framework to mind-read Xi Jinping.
 
 
What’s interesting is that the UK media on 20 November ceased almost completely its coverage of the NABU-related corruption scandal enveloping the neoNazi regime in Kiev, as if someone had ordered a stand-down—so I did not expect Brolin to make mention of it, thinking that he would prefer to dive toward the bright & shiny object du jour, namely the leaked 28-Point Peace Framework, and avoid the corruption topic at all costs.
 
 
But Brolin did in fact reference the NABU issues and how they threatened to bring Volodymyr down: “Ukraine is not in a happy place, for sure, and is now also tainted by a major corruption scandal.”
 
 
Let that sink in.
 
 
After nearly 4 years of battlefield losses, Ukraine faces not only a full-blooded Russian military but also a massive internal/domestic takedown in the form of its own corrupt government.  Deciding the happy place for Ukraine or what is not the happy place for Ukraine under these circumstances trivializes the deaths, the liquidation of a nation, the nonstop churn of scams, shams and lies and tosses them like clods of bloody meat on the altar of a parlor trick linked sickeningly to European democracy.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 20 2025 22:24 utc | 129

Z is the key figure to keep the war going. At first, he knew how to disappear much of the money that reached Kiew, making himself and his cronies rich. But now, after the corruption scandal, his physical survival may become his main concern in clinging to power.  But, he is a survival artist, and I’m afraid he’s gonna be around as “president” for quite a while.
 
Everyone who wants the war to continue can rely on Z as a useful tool. Z knows how to keep the expectation alive that “Ukraine is winning”, and he is needed in that role. Some British hawks may want him replaced by  a more competent military leader, and there is talk of that, but my bet is that neither the MI6 nor the SBU nor the CIA or Mossad will ever touch him. The guy is a survival artist who has been pronounced dead much too often, right here at MoA.
 
Boy, if I was in Putin’s shoes, I would send some experts to Kiev to solve that little problem. And to perhaps open chances for sensible peace talks.

Posted by: grunzt | Nov 20 2025 22:26 utc | 130

Imagine if Texas had 30 million people and Mexico had 25 million people and the Bolsheviks controlled all North America and combined Texas and Mexico into 1 State so whatever the Texans voted the Mexican minority was compelled to go along with regardless of Mexicans differences with the Texans?
 
That is why the Bolsheviks gurymandered ukraine into existence, to control the Polish Galatian Romanian Lithuanian parts by the majority Russian part
 
Do you want Putin to control the Polish Galatian Romanian Lithuanian parts along with the Russian speaking eastern ukrainians, or should they be separated?

Posted by: Hot Carl | Nov 20 2025 22:27 utc | 131

james @ 127
 

personal note.. i have gold toilets installed here at my place… just sayin’…………..

 
LOL. The way gold is going it’s a pretty astute investment, not very liquid though. For myself I just put the first down payment on a pair of gold plated bolts (24k not 10k!) that hold the tank to the seat, it’s a start and hopefully I can get the entire toilet done before the gold price outruns my dream. 
 
BTW I don’t believe a word of that gold toilet stuff, I’m old enough to have seen the gold toilet accusation hoisted a few times to discredit some rich ass that’s fallen from grace – pure NY Post stuff. The Zelensky mafia should be happy that so far no one has been accused of rape, that’s how you know things are serious, and also a sign that the NABU thing is theater of some sort.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 22:27 utc | 132

@ LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 22:27 utc | 132
 
good luck with the project!   yeah, it is quite the story and seems like it gets dragged out at the appropriate time…. there is so much bullshit floating to the top, it seems like the flusher just doesn’t work anymore when it comes to stories in the msm…  look at the one steel porcupine just quoted from the esteemed uk press, lol… talk about gutter reporting… it keeps on sinking lower – sort of like tech stocks at the moment… 

Posted by: james | Nov 20 2025 22:38 utc | 133

Z is the key figure to keep the war going.
 
Posted by: grunzt | Nov 20 2025 22:26 utc | 130
 
#####
Z is a nothing.  He is one of many faces of TPTB.
 
He’s not a commander, he’s not a statesman, he’s not a successful businessman.
 
Disposable, replaceable, forgettable.
 
Actors used to be considered scum. Somehow, the West has elevated society’s losers into heroes.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 20 2025 22:40 utc | 134

A very important event took place today in Moscow having zero to do with Ukraine or the SMO; IMO, it overshadowed both: Moscow’s Conference “Journey to the World of Artificial Intelligence” It was the

X International Conference on Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning: Artificial Intelligence Journey 2025–An extremely important read!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 20 2025 22:45 utc | 135

From The Saker’s August 16, 2022 article “Will the Ukraine be partitioned next and, if so, how?”:
I think that I was the first person in the West who noticed and translated a key Russian expression: “non agreement capable” (недоговороспособны).  This expression has been increasingly used by many Russian decision-makers, politicians, political commentators and others.  Eventually, even the folks in the West picked up on this.  So let’s revisit this issue again, keeping in mind that the Russians are now fully convinced that the West is simply “non agreement capable… Russia made the only possibly conclusion from the West’s stance: if our “partners” (sarcasm) are not agreement capable, then the time has come for Russian unilateralism.
I’m surprised no one seems to bring this consideration up these days. Has the Russian attitude changed since 2022? Whenever the US engages in “diplomacy,” why would anyone trust in their sincerity? If the recent back-channel US-Russia negotiations produce anything actionable, what would be the enforcement mechanism for such an agreement?

Posted by: tomodachi | Nov 20 2025 22:56 utc | 136

My Boy pal makes $seventy five/hour on net. he has been job less for six months. (z99) However he earns$16453 genuinely working at the internet for some hours. Immediately join from thesource.. https://fl0w2bash88.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Dino Pfeffer | Nov 20 2025 23:01 utc | 137

LoveDonbass @ 134
 

Actors used to be considered scum. Somehow, the West has elevated society’s losers into heroes.

 
How true, ever read Hollywood Babylon?
 
Zelensky’s a washed up has-been, people don’t just change the channel when he comes on, they take a baseball bat to the tv, and not only in Ukraine but all the viewers across the the west that are forced to pay subscription fees to the world’s most miserable show.
 
Problem is the DC-London-Brussels-Tel-Aviv clique that conspired to attack Russia is so insular and paranoid that they have no one in the wings to replace him, and with him an entire mafia structure that knows too much, and the window to reboot the franchise is closing fast, do it too soon and the new star gets tarred with the collapse of the Donbas, too late and you risk an uprising in Ukraine as they all run into the street with their baseball bats.
 
It’ll happen soon, my guess is this NABU awakening is a media savvy Trump move trying to force things alone – “You’re fired!” Any bets who the new star will be?

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 23:07 utc | 138

Mercouris has nailed it: Zelensky wins (while Ukraine is destroyed).  As I said, nothing matters, not corruption, not defeat, not protest.  Zelensky stays in power.  The corruption narrative will fade away as the elite keep stealing resources sent to Ukraine. Zelensky is their guy, he must stay in power, to keep the gravy flowing. EU will do nothing but reject any peace deal.  Trump will vacillate back to supporting Ukraine. The humorous thing here is that Zelensky may have a greater independence or sovereignty greater than Trump.  He’s sort of invincible – maybe they even give him a government in exile one day.

Posted by: Eighthman | Nov 20 2025 23:18 utc | 139

LYFH @ 138:
 
I should think the new star to replace Vladimir Zelensky is Valery Zaluzhny, currently serving as Ukraine’s ambassador to the UK. 
 
In short, an MI6 asset.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 20 2025 23:20 utc | 140

@steel_porcupine | Nov 20 2025 21:14 utc | 110
It’s bewildering how frequently a gold toilet factors into corruption.  
It is central to the shit show.
Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 20 2025 21:17 utc | 111

🥃🥃🥃

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 20 2025 23:25 utc | 141

My Boy makes $seventy five/hour on net. he has been job less for six months. (z99) However he earns$16453 genuinely working at the internet for some hours. Posted by: Dino Pfeffer

There you have it. Troll wage confirmation. 

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 20 2025 23:28 utc | 142

Apologies that I haven’t kept up with this thread today, but I have a related Duran link to give some ideas concerning the 28point plan, would agree with b that it is very iffy.  Here is the Duran conversation  with Daniel McAdams on various topics , and the one that interests me is when AlexanderMercouris asks why the US citizenry is so negative about the possible intervention in Venezuela.  He does so part way into an interesting conversation on this link:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUDKvejXII
 
I think the two issues – Ukraine and Venezuela are connected as becoming very hot button  for US ordinary people because those who voted for Trump (I wasn’t one) felt strongly that the US must stop using overseas issues as the focal point of policy and come back home to address everything that is affecting its own citizenry.  This is true for Ukraine, especially as the corruption and waste of resources there is reaching an Everest, clearly for the UE but also for the US.  That may seem an issue to explore by a Republican congress but it’s just more of the same focus on other countries as the Dems have had, when it is this one that needs looking at.  Who is really being helped by this?  The people of these countries are not benefiting at all from this crazy fixation, nor are we!
 
Plus, for Venezuela there is an added agonization — start something there involving regime change?  It’s just another nightmare added to the ones we already have!  And Venezuela is like family as are other  South American countries.  They are not our enemies ; they are our neighbors!  I know there was an issue with the open borders that the previous administration allowed  –  that was crazy in its own right and needed correct supervision.  But now Trump is strong arming US  state governments with a force that disrupts local law and order — ICE.  That’s our CIA image, locally realized!  A lot of those folk have families here – they aren’t criminals just because they are illegally present in this country.  There is a kinder way to deal with them.  Nor are they criminals  when themselves  obliterated on the open seas under murderous attack without proper investigation, drugs or no drugs!
 
I don’t think the Duran addressed these issues; maybe somebody in the chat later on will do so, but  Trump is an idiot if he lets Rubio pursue these tactics.  Maybe in Florida there are folk who need policing  but it should be according to sensible law enforcement.  Southwestern states need a border policy , yes, but  this move on Venezuela is really hard to take,  as are the other ‘supervisory’ moves.  This is Bay of Pigs stuff — we don’t need it!

Posted by: juliania | Nov 20 2025 23:33 utc | 143

A gold toilet called America by artist Maurizio Carrelan just sold for 12 million at Sotheby’s. He’s the guy that did the duct taped banana.
At Home Depot, a hardware chain in USA, they are around $550. I’m thinking about getting one!

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 20 2025 23:38 utc | 144

tomodachi | Nov 20 2025 22:56 utc | 136
The Saker was indeed the first to articulate недоговороспособны
Not Agreement Capable for an English reading audience.
(And actually much earlier than 2022 – I started reading his blog around 2014/5, post Maiden. The  Debaltsov debacle and the subsequent Minsk 1+2; OSCE {fiction] reports and the constant agitation along the Line of Control; the wilful Western blindness to the daily bombing and terrorism against downtown Donetsk.)
недоговороспособны has slowly infiltrated discourse in blogs such as these in the years since.
We know the U$ is Not Agreement Capable. And slowly the U$ begins to know it is Not Agreement Capable.
TrumpTeamTrix is realising, for the Russians, this ain’t their first negotiation rodeo.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 20 2025 23:42 utc | 145

If there shall be peace, illegally ruling Zelensky has to go.  Russia won’t accept a peace treaty signed by a wannabe dictator. A properly elected president signing the treaty must have balls because he will not be popular with the Nazis.
According to leaked documents from a Russian hack, the yankees, the Brits and the Europeans demand access to Ukrainian resources. I’ve got popcorn ready for the moment when they start fighting each other. XD

Posted by: V for Vendetta | Nov 20 2025 23:43 utc | 146

The “west” is so fucking rotten and its values are so skewed that I doubt any seriously fair terms will be presented. The beatings will go on until morale improves. I think this could end with a landlocked rump joke “ukraine” propped up by Polish puppets. 

Posted by: Saint Jimmy | Nov 20 2025 23:48 utc | 147

Alexander Mercouris: ‘EU-Ukraine Shock’
 
https://www.youtube.com/@AlexMercouris/videos
 
“Kiev defeats force US u-turn – accept Istanbul plus; Kellogg quits; Kiev/EU stunned – say NO; War crisis.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 20 2025 23:58 utc | 148

Refinnejenna | Nov 20 2025 23:20 utc | 140
Arestovych is still loitering just behind the side curtain, waiting his cue to take centre stage.
Hope dies last.
I think he can never reconcile why The Directors of the “To The Last Ukrainian” global reality shitshow didn’t cast him in the main role.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 21 2025 0:01 utc | 149

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 21 2025 0:01 utc | 149
 
A gold-plated production of “Springtime for Hitler in Ukraine”…  

Posted by: Saint Jimmy | Nov 21 2025 0:05 utc | 150

Ukrainian MP Publishes Purported Terms of New Peace Deal
 
https://www.rt.com/russia/628087-ukraine-peace-plan-published/
 
“Ukrainian opposition MP Aleksey Goncharenko has published the text of a purported peace plan reportedly presented to Kiev by the US administration this week. Here’s the full text of the post…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 21 2025 0:11 utc | 151

How true, ever read Hollywood Babylon? 
 
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 20 2025 23:07 utc | 138
 
_______
 
You mean the Penis Piano Player will order himself one last lavish gourmet meal, chug a bottle of sleeping pills, become violently nauseated and, while vomiting, wedge his head in his golden toilet and drown himself?
 
I was kinda hoping for the Gaddafi treatment, or at least the Mussolini treatment, but I guess the Hollywood Babylon treatment would do.

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 21 2025 0:23 utc | 152

Refinnejenna @ 140
 

I should think the new star to replace Vladimir Zelensky is Valery Zaluzhny, currently serving as Ukraine’s ambassador to the UK.  

 
Another has-been tied to the first grand fail, The Big Counter Offensive, I’ve no idea where he stood on that but he’s tarred with it. Klitschko too, all these names remind of the past, which is ugly and it’s made them all ugly. If the USA wants to keep the war going they are going to need people that don’t carry the stench of past failures, maybe Bezuhla, she definitely works for Washington, but I’ve no idea if she is trusted by the insular clique, or really any idea of internal Ukraine politics. Plus, how do they change the government without elections? The way the Russians are pounding the place I don’t see how they can hold elections, but on the bright side you don’t need electricity for paper ballots. 
 
They obvious way is a technical government put in after a vote of no confidence, you can drag technical govts. out for years, but Zelensky isn’t legit he’s there by wartime decree, seems the only way to get him out is to throw him out over corruption, which seems to be what they are working on and why I think he’s toast. But, if they had someone in the wings they’d be touting him or her all over the place, maybe they are really losing control – from without and within. If they replace Zelensky with anyone from the ancien régime it’ll be a sign that they have lost control and are plugging holes.
 
Remember the guy that was holding on for dear life to wheel strut of the last USA plane to get out of Afghanistan, who fell off in mid air? Hopefully we’ll see Zelensky in the same place soon.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 21 2025 0:31 utc | 153

Here’s the full transcript of Putin’s visit to the Command Post and my commentary on the few comments made. IMO, there’s a connection implied between the attacks on surrendering troops and the “criminal gang” that’s too busy stealing to govern or command.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 21 2025 0:34 utc | 154

The only thing I learned from this joke of a plan is that the US STILL is not listening to the Russians. When the Russians finally receive it, I hope they rip it up and throw it in Witkoff’s face. Hey, a guy can dream. 

Posted by: Michigan Dude | Nov 21 2025 0:36 utc | 155

malenkov @ 152
 

You mean the Penis Piano Player will order himself one last lavish gourmet meal, chug a bottle of sleeping pills, become violently nauseated and, while vomiting, wedge his head in his golden toilet and drown himself?

 
Exactly, but you left out the best part, found weeks later partially eaten by his dachshund. I might even take that over dropping off the wheel of a plane.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 21 2025 0:36 utc | 156

Malenkov & LightYearsFromHome
Nick Lowe – Marie Provost
Perhaps songs will be written about Z in the future. Kiev Babylon.
“Even little doggie’s have got to eat”
 

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 21 2025 0:46 utc | 157

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 20 2025 23:38 utc | 144
 
RE:   A gold toilet called America by artist Maurizio Carrelan just sold for 12 million at Sotheby’s. He’s the guy that did the duct taped banana.At Home Depot, a hardware chain in USA, they are around $550. I’m thinking about getting one!
 
<<
 
Ignore the price tag, lex talonis.  Resist-!
 
 
Ignore the ease of access, the convenience:  Home Depot-!
 
Installing such an item signals an existential defeat which, in domino-effect, leads to others.
 
Lash yourself to the mast and fend off this siren lure.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 0:50 utc | 158

@ LightYearsFromHome | Nov 21 2025 0:36 utc | 156
 
Thanks for the memory! I read the book (never saw the movie) decades ago…

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 21 2025 0:53 utc | 159

China’s new aircraft carrier a challenge to US naval supremacy. Washington Post:
https://wapo.st/3LNqR33 

Posted by: mjh | Nov 21 2025 1:00 utc | 160

Posted by: Michigan Dude | Nov 21 2025 0:36 utc | 155
The only thing I learned from this joke of a plan is that the US STILL is not listening to the Russians. When the Russians finally receive it, I hope they rip it up and throw it in Witkoff’s face. Hey, a guy can dream. 

Spot on.

.This whole new “Peace Plan” from Trump etal seems to be nothing more than a carefully crafted piece of diplomatic BS put together by a team of crafty individuals in Washington DC.  From what I can see it is designed simply to temporarily freeze the fighting at the Dnieper so as to give the EU (and European NATO members) time to allow Ukraine some time to recover from the recent set-backs and to re-arm for the next round.  It would hopefully also prevent the Russian army from quickly crossing the Dnieper and taking Odessa and the Black Sea coast. 
While it may appease some in the EU it is very unlikely to be acceptable-even as a temporary measure-by the RF.  There is nothing new in this “plan” except some meaningless fluffy words around the edges. 
I think it will be roundly rejected on various grounds both by Russia and Ukraine, and the SMO will continue according to the RF agenda.  Just when the RF decides to halt its operations is very uncertain, but I suspect much will depend on the general demeanor and behavior of the EU-particularly the more rabidly Russo phobic members.

 

Posted by: Barrel Brown | Nov 21 2025 1:01 utc | 161

John Gilberts | Nov 21 2025 0:11 utc | 151
 
There is no plan to publish as yet.That is why three different versions have appeared. They are a bullshit.
 
Apparently one will only be finalised when Zelensky meets with Trump. US has the goods on him – my thought – the corruption tapes or whatever other evidence will most likely be released if he does not sign something Acceptable to Russia.
 
Resident

According to the text of the questions, the leak was made deliberately today, but there are no details yet. Our sources assure us that the document is still in draft form and there is no agreed-upon version.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 1:03 utc | 162

The so called “Peace Plan” with it’s 28 points, anyone seen this document?
 
The usual Mockingbird Media outlets loudly proclaim what’s supposedly in the “Plan” putting in their spin.
 
Arnaud Bertrand’s opinion is we are on the brink of witnessing the biggest capitulation since the fall of Constantinople.
 
No EU, European countries or NATO representatives. Just backroom talks. 
 
Donbas? Kherson? Odessa? Anyone still fixated on the SMO is missing the real picture.
 
A complete restructuring of the European security architecture. The US is going to throw NATO under bus. Putin’s 2007 Munich opus.
 
Carry on. 
 

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 21 2025 1:13 utc | 163

how any of this makes Wharton’s best grad ever look is so irrelevant to anything except his fawnboys, however, it does make Trump look Nobel Peace Prize worthy just by appearing to try, while back on earth Europe jacks up their military budgets in preparation for the endlessly promised future war with Russia, and all the Zelenski-style corruption that goes along with it.
 
NATO leaders are fully capable of doing to Europe’s other countries what they are doing to Ukraine. While buying American. They already are. The “win” is Europe’s promise to continue to militarize, and to use the issue of Israel to crush all dissent from the plans for permanent war. While the US focuses on VZ or China and Antifa and illegals getting food benefits.

Posted by: duck n cover | Nov 21 2025 1:19 utc | 164

Peter AU1 | Nov 20 2025 21:31 utc | 117
 
I have often wondered just what the plan was when the US told Russia to pound sand when the ruskies presented there three demands and promised to carry out actions to achieve those demands if they could not be agreed upon peacefully.  For me that was an aw shit moment because when not only did Biden not do any of those things he stuck another finger in the Russians’ eyes by adding another 2 members to NATO who are very close to Russia with one of them sharing a border.
 
I saw the Russian position as “we can’t pull back any more”  there is no where to go.  It was pretty much a do or die moment.  Once they committed they had to follow through.  With Biden refusing to even discuss it, the problem became much larger because now the US has to win or be humiliated.  At that point, what were the planners of this hoping to attain?  Was there any goal at all or was it all just to try to weaken Russia by making it fight a well defended enemy and then after failing to capitulate?  In what world would that happen?  Any serious military planner would have thrown this plan into the waste basket ASAP.  Yet that is how it seems to have down.
 
Even if this war which has resulted in the loss of a good portion of Ukraine, tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths and who knows how many severely wounded, plus the infrastructure destroyed was done solely for financial gain by the MIC, why are the Europeans so keen to be a part of it?  I doubt their gains are even significant but I could be wrong.  Maybe they just like killing.  I know most people I have spoken to in Germany and Italy believe Putin will march on Berlin as soon as he gets a chance.  60 years of US propaganda has worked quite well it seems.
 
but really, what was the end game.  Is this it?

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 21 2025 1:23 utc | 165

sure wish I could edit.

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 21 2025 1:25 utc | 166

Exactly, but you left out the best part, found weeks later partially eaten by his dachshund. I might even take that over dropping off the wheel of a plane.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 21 2025 0:36 utc | 156

Malenkov & LightYearsFromHomeNick Lowe – Marie ProvostPerhaps songs will be written about Z in the future. Kiev Babylon.“Even little doggie’s have got to eat” 
Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 21 2025 0:46 utc | 157

Apologies for the off topic, but you reminded me of this one that popped up on our national broadcaster yesterday.
Just when you thought you’d heard/seen it all:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-20/woman-fined-after-attempt-to-hide-drugs-in-dog-body/106034692

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Nov 21 2025 1:29 utc | 167

it would also be really cool if Outraged were to show up again.  too bad he had to go away

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 21 2025 1:32 utc | 168

dan of steele | Nov 21 2025 1:23 utc | 165
 
The looting of Russia plus straight out hatred of Russians. The second Chechen war, the CIA began moving headchoppers into Chechnya in the mid 90’s. That was an attempt to further break up the Russian federation.
 
The helensky group, funded by the US was quite public and had a thing called ‘Decolonization of Russia’ and maps showing how the Russian federation would be broken up and the names of the resulting statelets. In Britain, France and Germany though, just rabid racist hatred of Russians.
 
Britain by far the worst.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 1:42 utc | 169

Trump’s administration is irrelevant to winning this war and has always been. Russia will just continue along what it is doing. Both Euro NATOSTAN and the US leaders have been posturing for months if not years now about what they will do next, but none of it comes to actually taking place, or is so badly planned the operations and deliveries or ordnance are very quickly destroyed.
 
No doubt there are not only two levels of economy in this world now as the rich get richer, and the average worker gets poorer, but there are also two levels of attitudes that revolve around these two classes as well.
 
Soldiers can die like flies while the corrupt leaders couldn’t care less . The former have to put up with death or injury while the latter are only concerned about preening their feathers, posturing, and saving face. Doesn’t it seem very similar to Palestinians having to put up with massacre and genocide while the Zionists get emotionally upset over antisemitism.

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 21 2025 1:47 utc | 170

I looked up  Goncharenko as he is the one that put up the last version.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksiy_Goncharenko
 
He is a nutcase and I could not see any connections to the presidents office in the wikipedia entry. Possibly he is connected to someone that may have seen what the Americans showed Zelensky, though possibly just very second or third hand information.
 
The resident channel came up with something else altogether. That it was a scheme for the Americans to take full control of Europe. A power sharing arrangement over Europe with Russia, but designed to make Russia subordinate to the US and also pull Russia away from China.
 
That power sharing arrangement over Europe as in security architecture which is part of the root cause of the conflict. Perhaps the Americans think they can pull a swifty on Russia with something like that, who knows?
That one makes four versions and they are likely all bullshit.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 1:56 utc | 171

One factor which a lot of people seem to be ignoring — What will be the effect of tossing out claims about a Peace Plan on Ukrainian citizens shivering in the dark, and especially on Ukrainian soldiers dodging incoming on the front lines?
 
It is a reasonable guess that a lot of Ukrainians are going to be saying — screw the details, just stop the fighting.  To paraphrase Algore, no-one wants to be the last guy to die in a lost war.  The impact on Ukrainian morale may be enough to really swing the balance towards a “Peace at Any Price” movement within the Ukraine.  Or, to put things bluntly, perhaps the whole “28 Point Plan” is simply another psych-op?  It is not aimed at the Russians, at Zelensky’s corrupt inner circle, or at the EU — it is aimed at the Ukrainian citizens and army.  But we have yet to hear any reliable reports about the grunt-level Ukrainian response.

Posted by: Gavin Longmuir | Nov 21 2025 1:58 utc | 172

Once the war is over, Western Ukraine will be a failed state with a population of around 20 million people.  95% of the people who fled will not come back.  Why would they?  There will be very few jobs, Roads, infrastructure, economic prosperity.
 
Meanwhile on the Eastern side of the Dnieper River Russia will be investing and supporting their side at a maximalist scale.  There will be jobs, new cities, new infrastructure, and prosperity.  All Russia has to do is give it time and the corrupt western side will eventually beg for Russia and China with the SCO and their belt and road initiative to please come in and save them.
 
If the USA is throwing in Georgia, Armenia, And the Stan’s capitulation, Syria Military bases, and leaving Iran alone the points posted would be at least a starting point.  If out of 100 Billion in frozen funds 50 billion goes to the USA and 50 Billion to Russia to invest in Joint US Russia Business such as completing the Tunnel between Russia and Alaska it very well could be very beneficial not only to Russia but to the US, Japan, Korea, and China as the US oil pipeline connecting the northern coast (Prudhoe Bay) of Alaska is only being utilized at 15% capacity – there is ready infrastructure there for Russia to send as much energy as it could through the tunnel.
 
Behind every unit of GDP is a unit of energy.  Making the US someone who imports Russian energy and exports it at a profit to Asian countries not directly connected to the Russian China pipelines could be very lucrative.
 
Over the long term in such a scenario Ukraine would take care of itself eventually.  Europe would be diminished.  NATO and the EU would become less of a problem for Russia and China and you could have prosperity for most.  I don’t know if what has been posted as the 28 point plan is accurate and I don’t know if it is something that will be used as a starting point to be agreed upon but to dismiss it as something that has zero merit is a mistake and short sighted IMHO.  You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. 
 
Russia and China have proven to be playing the long game.  Trying to sort this out through diplomatic and economic ties would be more profitable then the deflationary destruction through war.  Western Ukraine in 5 years will not be any better off than it is today demographically, economically, or militarily.  Meanwhile Russia and China just keep taking steps forward.  War is diplomacy by other means.  If you can have diplomacy without war that is all preferable as it is cheaper.
 
The USA knows that Russia and China together can’t be beat.  The only way to survive is get off the roller-coaster of constant wars colonialization and refocus its country to prosperity for itself through industrial, energy, and blue-collar job investments, with its neighbors.  And like it or not Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc etc are all neighbors of sorts to the USA.

Posted by: TundraTide | Nov 21 2025 2:07 utc | 173

Arnaud Bertrand’s opinion is we are on the brink of witnessing the biggest capitulation since the fall of Constantinople. Posted by: Suresh | Nov 21 2025 1:13 utc | 163
 
I think something will happen. Many think there is no split in the american factions but I think there is. The faction behind Trump knows the petro-dollar is finished and the world has changed. They know they have to change too. I look at Trump as a Gorbachev or Yeltsin. The US empire is now collapsing just as the Soviet Union collapsed.
 
As an American Gorbachev, Trump America is likely to be far more violent, But both Russia and China are now powerful states. Because the money men in the US have split into two factions, I don’t see the US continuing on the way it has always done. But as Trump said to Zelensky “You don’t hold the cards”, Trump’s US does not hold the cards either when it comes to Russia and China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 2:09 utc | 174

I just watched Nima/Pepe Escobar who is in Moscow and says that none of the US plan was negotiated with the Russian government so it is all BS for propaganda sake……..he said there was more to the story he could not share.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:15 utc | 175

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 21 2025 1:13 utc | 163
 
The US has always thrown Europe and NATO under the bus and probably has a lot to do with the phony leaders in Europe and Britain now. 
The US mainly wants to sell more weapons to Europe which it got into the habit of doing way back in WWI and WWII. It’s another form of debt trap diplomacy, and it doesn’t matter how many years it takes to pay back any loan.
 
As you can also see with China, the US’s fear of the country only became important and obvious when China’s economy increased to rival the US and even more so when its technology advanced as well. Obama’s ‘Pivot to Asia’ was the first obvious public admission that the US would not support an economic rival.
 
I my opinion it has been the same with Europe because if its economies combined constructively it would be a more formidable competitor against the US economy as well. I think as far back as 2008 and the GFC, a seed was sown there to divide and conquer Europe’s states and its been easy to do.  US economic ratings agencies were instrumental in firing off the starting gun during those times. Then there was the racist campaign over BREXIT which has been a disaster for the British. European leaders since those days have just become utter puppets.
 
Make no mistake, the US is about sabotage of any country’s economy if it becomes a rival, and that is exactly what it has been trying to do with Russia as well, although the military aspects of Russia have been a threat to the US as well.
 
 
 
 
 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 21 2025 2:15 utc | 176

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:15 utc | 175
 
Its just more posturing and theatrics which the dumb ass mainstream media falls for every time. 

Posted by: GeorgeWendell | Nov 21 2025 2:17 utc | 177

From today:
 

Question: What does the Russian Foreign Ministry think about the situation when the Ukrainian authorities talk about “cleansing the system,” but in fact they uncover schemes worth hundreds of millions of dollars involving people close to Vladimir Zelensky?
 
Maria Zakharova: This is no longer a corruption scandal. This is another uncovered mafia-bloody “abscess” for money laundering, for the global seizure of millions and billions, for the distribution of weapons transferred for other purposes, and for their sale on the “black markets”. Now it has led to a political collapse in Ukraine. The waves of this political upheaval also reach those countries that uncontrollably supplied money to the Kyiv regime without any checks and audits of weapons.
 
We had no doubts that the Kiev regime, nurtured by the West, had long ago mastered the art of “mastering” the huge flows of military, financial, economic, humanitarian and other aid coming to Ukraine. Embezzlement, bribery and corruption have acquired unprecedented proportions in the country. Representatives at Bankova became an international mafia structure. This is a system of public administration that has already grown together with the state machine in Ukraine. These are not only these individuals who “stole” something separately. This is a systemic “engine” incorporated into the state apparatus of Ukraine. It has grown together with this device and has connections with external players.
 
The scandal around the so-called “Mindich case” exposed the embezzlement of multimillion-dollar sums of money invented by the sponsors of the Kiev regime, allegedly to strengthen Ukraine’s defense capability, but in reality to wage war with Russia. Now, as far as we can understand, there will be even more evidence of large-scale embezzlement and, accordingly, food for thought about the expediency of continuing to assist the Zelensky regime.
 
Citizens of Western countries should ask questions of their governments. Why are they sponsoring the Kyiv war? What guarantees are there that this money will not be stolen? Where are the audits, inspections, control system? All this also includes a terrorist component, because the Zelensky regime commits terrorist attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure. 

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 21 2025 2:25 utc | 178

psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:15 utc | 175
 
IMO, it was a trial balloon discussed with Dmitriev then leaked by him. Nothing official was ever transmitted to Moscow.  

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 21 2025 2:27 utc | 179

Oh, I forgot to note that all the AI-related tech announced by Sberbank CEO Gref at today’s AI Conference linked to above will be released as open source, and it’s a trove. 

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 21 2025 2:34 utc | 180

In response to

IMO, it was a trial balloon discussed with Dmitriev then leaked by him. Nothing official was ever transmitted to Moscow.  
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 21 2025 2:27 utc | 179

 
Yea, but it is a very strange way to try and negotiate away from known Russia demands.
 
The West is giving Russia time to insure that it gets Odessa as part of the SMO…..and kicks out the UK spooks

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:36 utc | 181

Aye, PeterAU1.
 
As an aside, with the latest scandal making the rounds, I wonder if Hungary launches a corruption case against EU officials, especially one certain VD Lying?
 
 

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 21 2025 2:50 utc | 182

The dirty not-so-secret about Ukraine is that American and European politicians have been laundering money through there.
 
The sad thing is, even if that came out with detail, nothing will be done about it.
 
The perfect crime. The Zionists are good at that.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 21 2025 3:11 utc | 183

This is a very useful comment, Peter:
 

I remembered Rubio had said something about it so looked it up. Ending a complex and deadly war such as the one in Ukraine requires an extensive exchange of serious and realistic ideas. And achieving a durable peace will require both sides to agree to difficult but necessary concessions. That is why we are and will continue to develop a list of potential ideas for ending this war based on input from both sides of this conflict.https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1991297619964854460 From Resident tg that I quoted earlier in the thread “According to our information, there is no real plan as such, but there is a set of initiatives,” Both Rubio and Resident saying the same thing.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 20 2025 20:11 utc | 73
 

I have read several of the Duran offerings on the subject, as well as this one from John Helmer:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_qFNiFrzpM
 
I would recommend them both, with special attention to what John Helmer has to say. He’s very careful in explaining how what happened in Alaska did not bear fruit, but how in this case a possible exit strategy on both Russia’s and the US’s best terms could occur.  Worth a careful consideration I think.
 
Alexander Mercouris makes a strong point that on this important issue many levels of communication are no doubt being tried.  And one suggestion of Helmer’s makes sense to me, that Trump, with his popular mandate vanishing, would be realizing that he has been wrongly advised and that with the options diminishing this would be his one chance to be able to claim he has done what he always tries to claim as victory – brought the war to an end.    Both these reports rectify a lot of false assumptions about the 28 point plan.  It contains a great deal.
 
 

Posted by: juliania | Nov 21 2025 3:14 utc | 184

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 20 2025 20:30 utc | 82
 
Good points, c1ue.  

Posted by: juliania | Nov 21 2025 3:19 utc | 185

‘Dear Friends, a Very Interesting Insider Report from the President’s Office…’
 
https://x.com/anatoliisharii/status/1991501995497206230
 
“Zelensky is planning to reject any deal proposed by the United States. The idea is this: Supposedly, Zelensky’s refusa of a deal that may be Ukraine’s only chance for peace right now will strengthen him in the eyes of the Ukrainian electorate.
 
This is even more interesting than ‘trading personal immunity for surrendering territories.’ What will Trump do to him after that? The question remains open for me. We keep watching.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 21 2025 3:32 utc | 186

Peace By Sunday?
 
https://eventsinukraine.substack.com/p/peace-by-sunday
 
“Is Trump behind the corruption probe? Oligarchs, liberals, nationalists and Zelenskites give their views.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 21 2025 3:41 utc | 187

psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:15 utc | 175
 
Thanks. I just watched Escobar. That explains one version anyway. What it means though, I won’t try to guess at the moment.
 
Thanks juliania. Will check the Helmer video.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 3:42 utc | 188

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:15 utc | 175
 
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 2:36 utc | 181
 
RE:   [ Pepe Escobar indicates that ] none of the US plan was negotiated with the Russian government so it is all BS for propaganda sake……..[ Pepe ]  said there was more to the story he could not share.
 
<<
 
 
It would be strange for Dmitriev to leak the plan publicly because such behavior runs counter to the customary taciturnity Russian officials & negotiators evince.
 
Heaven knows the West is a leaky sieve, but we’ve not experienced such behavior from Russian insiders.  Leaking info to a media outlet from the West would seem especially forbidden:  a way to lose one’s role in the whole venture.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 3:43 utc | 189

@ steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 3:43 utc | 189 about what we don’t know about who leaked and why….thx
 
What is trial balloon, propaganda, negotiation point or just brain farts?
 
What we know is that we are watching words, not actions….except for those on the ground by Russia executing the SMO to conclusion that I referred to yesterday as MAD contextualized conditional surrender
 
When the empire talking points fit the Russian definition of a MAD contextualized conditional surrender we will be starting to make progress but until then Russia is getting closer to Odessa.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 3:54 utc | 190

BTW:  The Telegraph did a typically biased write-up of the AI-tech summit in Moscow yesterday, bleating that “an awkward Putin was forced to watch an AI robot dance.”
 
Forced.  Right.
 
They followed this up by stating that “Putin is known historically to be opposed to new technology.”
 
After the Oreshnik and other cutting-edge hypersonics-?  Really-?
 
Then The Telegraph took a lot of glee in describing a different robot tipping over.  They made a lot of hay out of that.  It was reminiscent of all the snark-journalism just before & during the Sochi Olympics.  The U.S. media totally be-trashed themselves.
 
Tripe in triplicate.
 

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 3:55 utc | 191

Suresh | Nov 21 2025 2:50 utc | 182
 
I think anything could happen now. Making public the corruption in Ukraine, even if it was just the tip of the iceberg – anything could happen I guess  The insanity in the EU and UK, the west, Europe especially may begin to self destruct.
 
Corruption will be just as high in the EU crowd as it is in Ukraine – von der lying and the covid vaccine, she likely pocketed a number of billions out of that, and there will be heaps more of that sort of stuff. Orbon and Fico are likely to crank things up a bit.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 4:03 utc | 192

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 21 2025 3:54 utc | 190
 
RE:   we are watching words, not actions….except for those on the ground by Russia executing the SMO to conclusion
 
<<
 
 
Everything is spring-loaded as we await tiny scraps that will signify for Russia a Victor’s Peace.  Hair-trigger.  Easy to lose oneself when cope & hope coalesce.
 
Your comment @ #190 is good, though—and I liked it yesterday too:  “When the empire talking points fit the Russian definition of a MAD contextualized conditional surrender we will be starting to make progress but until then Russia is getting closer to Odessa.”
 

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 4:09 utc | 193

The versions –
 
Kirill Dmitriev   Axios
MI6                  Telegraph
Goncharenko   Ukraine version
 
I’ll leave out the analysis in the resident TG channel, but there is possibly another or it might be part of one of those but I did see something about Ukraine have to cut its military by 2.5.
 

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 4:13 utc | 194

Heaven knows the West is a leaky sieve, but we’ve not experienced such behavior from Russian insiders.  Leaking info to a media outlet from the West would seem especially forbidden:  a way to lose one’s role in the whole venture.
Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 3:43 utc | 189
 
It’s more than that. He’s just about flipping off the Russian Foreign Ministry and Sergei Lavrov in particular. There were more dismissive ways to do this, but not many. On the other hand, if VVP does absolutely nothing to his economist friend, then this was all done with state backing. What does that mean for Lavrov?

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Nov 21 2025 4:32 utc | 195

Steel Porcupine, Dmitriev leaked the “plan” says who Dmitriev himself or Axios?
 
I think for you to make that bold statement without providing proof it’s straight from the horse’s mouth is amateur hour this late into the innings.

Posted by: Suresh | Nov 21 2025 4:32 utc | 196

I just read the Axios articles again. There are about four Axious articles altogether.
 
“Witkoff assured German Foreign Minister Johann Wadephul in a call on Thursday morning that the new plan was “a framework of ideas””
 
That also matches with what Rubio and Resident tg channel said. This I think is a memorandum of understanding rather than a plan.  I think what the Americans are trying to do is put together a list – the 28 points that are somewhere in the range of what all will accept, but all or many points will likely have to be negotiated before a final document is drawn up.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 4:33 utc | 197

As for Dmitriev being the leaker, Escobar figured it out from what the Russian foreign ministry told him. 

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 21 2025 4:38 utc | 198

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Nov 21 2025 4:32 utc | 195
 
RE:    It’s more than that. [ Dmitriev’s ]  just about flipping off the Russian Foreign Ministry and Sergei Lavrov in particular. There were more dismissive ways to do this, but not many. On the other hand, if VVP does absolutely nothing to his economist friend, then this was all done with state backing. What does that mean for Lavrov?
 
<<
 
 
I mean, we’ve not seen insider insubordination since Prigozhin’s March.
 
If insider insubordination is indeed what we’re seeing…

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Nov 21 2025 4:42 utc | 199

Both the Russians and Ukrainians hate the plan.  I can’t see how it’s viable from any angle.  Trump should dump it.  Zelenskys cabal.wony give up.the power and money from war.  The EU clearly will.send enough money and supplies to keep it going, because Russia i guess. The US has much less leverage than it needs to overcome that.  
I think Russia needs to accomplish its goals militarily, no one will agree to let them get it without fighting for every inch.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 21 2025 4:45 utc | 200