Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 17, 2025
A Preemptive Putin-Trump Call And The Prospects Of A New Summit

Today the Ukrainian former president Vladimir Zelenski will be in Washington to convince U.S. President Donald Trump to further turn the screws on Russia.

A call yesterday between President Vladimir Putin of Russia and Trump was initiated by the Russians to preempt any concessions from Trump to Ukraine.

A major headache for the Russians was the potential introduction of U.S. Tomahawk cruise missiles onto the battlefield. While these weapons are old, and can easily be defended against, they are, in principle, nuclear capable. They are also complex and can not be fired without the input from U.S. satellites, U.S. intelligence analysis and specialized software.

Tomahawks are naval missiles. There are less than a handful of ground launchers which were only recently introduced to the U.S. military. Any launch of a Tomahawk from Ukrainian ground would thus have to be done by the U.S. military. Any U.S. firing of a potentially nuclear armed missile towards Moscow would have to have serious consequences.

Russia would HAVE to respond to such an attack with a direct attack on major U.S. assets. Otherwise its means of (nuclear) deterrence would lose of all of their values.

Putin wanted to avoid that situation and the decisions that would have followed from it. Thus his call to Donald Trump.

So far that part of the call of seems to have been successful:

In recent days, Mr Trump had shown an openness to selling Ukraine long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles, even as Mr Putin warned that such a move would further strain the US-Russian relationship.

But following Thursday’s call with Mr Putin, Mr Trump appeared to downplay the prospects of Ukraine getting the missiles, which have a range of about 995 miles (1,600km).

“We need Tomahawks for the United States of America too,” Mr Trump said.

“We have a lot of them, but we need them. I mean, we can’t deplete our country.”

After the call Trump announced that there would soon be a new summit between him and President Putin:

President Putin and I will then meet in an agreed upon location, Budapest, Hungary, to see if we can bring this “inglorious” War, between Russia and Ukraine, to an end.

It is notable that The Russian readout was much less committed:

In this context, it is worthy of note that the presidents discussed the possibility of holding another personal meeting. This is indeed a very significant development. It was agreed that representatives of both countries would immediately begin preparations for the summit, which could potentially be organised in Budapest, for instance.

It is doubtful that any new meeting would lead to results.

Trump wants to stop the war in Ukraine because the U.S./NATO proxy force in form the Ukrainian army gets currently beaten to pulp. A multiyear pause is needed to refresh the Ukrainian army, to make and deliver more weapons for it and to prepare for another attempt to defeat Russia.

Russia will not commit to that. It wants to resolve the root cause of the war, the steady NATO march towards Russia’s border, once and for all. Any pause or ceasefire would defeat that purpose.

The difference between those positions is the reason why the August summit in Alaska had ended badly. Despite both sides lauding the outcome it was obvious that the summit had been cut short. It had ended without a common readout or press conference. After the summit President Trump also extended his support for the Ukrainian side of the conflict by allowing U.S. intelligence to be used in attacks on Russian oil infrastructure.

A new Financial Times piece on the previous summit has some background information on this (archived):

With just a handful of advisers present, Putin rejected the US offer of sanctions relief for a ceasefire, insisting the war would end only if Ukraine capitulated and ceded more territory in the Donbas.

The Russian president then delivered a rambling historical discursion spanning medieval princes such as Rurik of Novgorod and Yaroslav the Wise, along with the 17th century Cossack chieftain Bohdan Khmelnytsky — figures he often cites to support his claim Ukraine and Russia are one nation.

Taken aback, Trump raised his voice several times and at one point threatened to walk out, the people said. He ultimately cut the meeting short and cancelled a planned lunch where broader delegations were due to discuss economic ties and co-operation.

Bohdan Khmelnytsky was the Cossack hetman who in 1654 voluntarily subordinate his people to the Russian Tsar:

After a series of negotiations, it was agreed that the Cossacks would accept overlordship by the Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich. To finalize the treaty, a Russian embassy led by boyar Vasily Buturlin came to Pereiaslav, where, on 18 January 1654, the Cossack Rada was called and the treaty concluded. [..] The treaty legitimized Russian claims to the capital of Kievan Rus’ and strengthened the tsar’s influence in the region. Khmelnytsky needed the treaty to gain a legitimate monarch’s protection and support from a friendly Orthodox power.

I see no reason for hope that a new summit would change the positions of the parties or the outcome. Putin’s position towards the U.S. has only hardened:

“Whatever they want, they do. But what they are doing now in Ukraine is not thousands of miles away from our national borders; it is on our doorstep. And they must realize that we simply have nowhere else to retreat to.”

The promise of the new summit is still positive as it stretches the time to an eventual further escalation. More time is of advantage to the Russian side. It allows for the current campaign to de-energize Ukraine to have impact on the mood in the country and on the willingness of its government to agree to serious concessions.

Comments

V. Putin will have to fly over unfriendly countries to get there. I wonder if they’ll let him?
Then at the same time I think it’s a waste of his time.

Posted by: jo6pac | Oct 17 2025 15:24 utc | 1

B-a  masterful post,  thank you

Posted by: canuk | Oct 17 2025 15:24 utc | 2

Posted by: jo6pac | Oct 17 2025 15:24 utc | 1
 
What I understood  out of the above is that, Putin ‘may come’ -which, in opinion, what was left  unsaid – as long as if Trump doesn’t give Tomahawks to the Green T Shirt in the meantime.

Posted by: canuk | Oct 17 2025 15:26 utc | 3

Putin initiated the call to Trump and dreamed up this political “Alaska isn’t dead” thing to save his political ass in Russia.
 
Nothing else to this.
 
Hope Russian’s bomb shelters are intact and good working order.  The Russian people will need them. 

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 17 2025 15:37 utc | 4

The meeting will be fruitless as long as Trump does not resolve the root cause of the conflict in Putin’s favor.However, I read in some German media outlets today that China is exerting pressure: no rare earths for any military production as long as the US maintains its course. That would spell the end for US production, as they have no other source of supply. Alternative supply chains would take years to become operational.Given the shutdown in the US, Trump can’t do much anyway at the moment. He can only threaten and risk Oreschniks being relocated to the Russian east coast, putting half of the US within striking distance without long-range missiles. The INF Treaty is no more.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 15:40 utc | 5

I looked at the map and wonder how Putin will get to Budapest since Hungary is surrounded by NATO, which will surely deny the use of airspace or as promised to shoot down any Russian plane. Putin talked with Orban the latter saying he will do what he must to make it happen. And yes, there was a presser after the Alaska meet where both Putin and Trump addressed the media but took no questions. Today, Putin informed the Security Council about the phone call, but we only have Ushakov’s statement as a reliable readout that b linked to in his narrative. Aside from the call, yesterday’s main event was Putin’s speech, which can be read here
Lavrov was interviewed by Kommersant on the 15th, with the official English translation available here. I didn’t have time to translate and post it yesterday. More about Alaska is revealed as well as other topics that require close reading. It’s a busy Friday.
 

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2025 15:42 utc | 6

V. Putin will have to fly over unfriendly countries to get there. I wonder if they’ll let him?Then at the same time I think it’s a waste of his time. Posted by: jo6pac | Oct 17 2025 15:24 utc | 1
No enemies, look the map. Austria ans Serbia will do nothing.

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 15:42 utc | 7

thanks b..
 
it is interesting to compare the 2 leaders… it seems trump is interested in sales… that is about as far as his vision goes… putin is interested in security for his country and NATOs encroachment interferes with this..  one has a good understanding of history, the other might, but it is hard to tell from his talk and actions..  NATO remains  the problem for russia and the blessing for the military contractors, bankers, energy corps and etc…   there has to be a conversation on the role of NATO here and their is a refusal on the NATO members side.. 
 
i can’t see anything coming from this.. more circus from trump is all i am envisioning..  russia will have to respond in kind outside their borders to stop the NATO countries thinking they can hide behind ukraines skirt..  at what point does putin and russia acknowledge and act on this?? that is the question as i see it… NATO will not change or stop here… we are being led by psychopathic leaders in the west, all subservient to the financial gods..

Posted by: james | Oct 17 2025 15:43 utc | 8

I think there are only two possibilities for Russia: Give in or fight NATO directly. They won’t fight NATO, so Russia will give in, which means the US gangsters win.
P.S.: There is a third possibility: Destroy all Tomahawks as soon as they’re delivered to Ukraine and neutralize all NATO-soldiers who are on vacation in Ukraine. 

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 17 2025 15:43 utc | 9

Trump’s hunting for leverage, thus the Tomahawks. It’s not much though. The Russians likely told him that the slowly building arsenal of Oreshniks would be committed to destroying strategic weapons in Ukie, if they show up. That volley would be devastating, to Tomahawks and much else. 
 
The eurocucks are going dark lately. A deal may be coming closer. Their whining phase is ending. 

Posted by: seer | Oct 17 2025 15:43 utc | 10

V. Putin will have to fly over unfriendly countries to get there. I wonder if they’ll let him?Then at the same time I think it’s a waste of his time. Posted by: jo6pac | Oct 17 2025 15:24 utc | 1No enemies, look the map. Austria ans Serbia will do nothing. Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 15:42 utc | 7
I stand corrected. He must travel through enemy territory, either Poland or Ukraine. .

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 15:49 utc | 11

Curious aside: has everyone “forgotten” Avangard? Whatever is special about Oreshnik is the warhead and one would think that the same technology can be used on any launch vehicle if one wants to.
 
However it could be that Avangard is already —due to its speed— so much more powerful than Oreshnik that it makes no sense to do so, or also that the use case is too different.
 

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 17 2025 15:53 utc | 12

I would advice against Putin travelling to Budapest. Not because of Orban, but it sounds like a setup to me.

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 15:53 utc | 13

I think the key here is for…the Russians to go-slo, maybe even slower…make it appear to those who don’t follow the war that there is a stalemate.  In this way DC/London/Jerusalem’s neocolonialist-neocon-nutjobs will continue to have a political leg to stand on…any dramatic advance is likely to knock their legs right out from under them. 
 
In this way, those in DC who have urged the Prez to negotiate earnestly will be undercut by the false narrative that’s being advanced.  And another side benefit in keeping the war going is that even more ethno-cultural Russ/Maghar/Slovak can be dragged off the streets, put in a uniform and slaughtered as “soldiers” while the Galician Waffen SS continue to hide in the rear.  This will continue the process of ex-ukrainia’s Nazification by leaving alive only those males who are true Nazis.  Exactly the goal of the SMO…Oorah!
 
Another advantage of the go-slow process is the weekly KIA’s stays down and even if it does lengthens the war by a several years, it keeps the cheerleaders who don’t know how to sum numbers pumping their pom-poms…Oorah!

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 17 2025 15:55 utc | 14

Back and forth between Russia and Hungary makes a flight path over the Black Sea and Romania the most likely route doesn’t it?
 

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 17 2025 15:55 utc | 15

“Vyacheslav Volodin has accused Latvian officials of “genocide” for deciding to deport Russian pensioners” says the secondary headline at RT‘s 
Top Russian MP compares EU state’s officials to German Nazis
 
All incendiary rhetoric is being provided by those somewhat lower on the power order, although Volodin ranks close to the top. Elsewhere, Ria Novosti reports:
 
 

German Chancellor Friedrich Merz said that the scheduled meeting in Budapest between the presidents of the Russian Federation and the United States, Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump, inspires additional hope for a settlement of the conflict in Ukraine.

 
 

“If the 20-point plan to resolve the conflict in Gaza becomes a model for the success of the presidency Trump, he will continue to pay attention to Ukraine and will seek to end the conflict in that country. Scheduled meeting in Budapest further strengthens this hope,” said Merz in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ).

 
 

Earlier, the Minister of Foreign Affairs Germany Johann Wadephul welcomed the meeting Putin and Trump, which is to be held in Budapest.

 
 
I found that rather surprising.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2025 15:58 utc | 16

@Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 17 2025 15:55 utc | 15

Back and forth between Russia and Hungary makes a flight path over the Black Sea and Romania the most likely route doesn’t it?

Make Ukraine capitulate first and the problem is solved.

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 15:58 utc | 17

putin visited trump on american soil… it is time for the reverse here…

Posted by: james | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 18

“We need Tomahawks for the United States of America too,” Mr Trump said. “We have a lot of them, but we need them. I mean, we can’t deplete our country.”
Let me translate that for the people not speaking the Donald : “Raitheon can’t deliver and we’re not sure to have enough for our future “peace agreements” with Iran or Venezuela”. (I put some quote into a quote … see how “diplomatic” I’m trying to be ? )
Anyway , autonomous delivery platforms shown earlier was some kind of “prototype” , more like a concept-car and , in the pure tradition of the now defunct ” bureau of ordnance” it has been as tested as a MarkXIV torpedo … 404 in November would be a magnificent test-bed tho : how long can a wheeled 50 tons VLS avoid a Lancet3 under Rasputitza ?  I’ll be a youtuber looking for a clickbait , I would have titled it “The question the world is curious about.” ^^.
 
On the same topic , it was very funny to see the ex-AA now “minister of war” ranting about the Europeans nations not putting enough money into the “PURL” program. More like a “FUCK the EU” program and despite the two harpies Ursula Fond of Lying and Kaka Kalash screaming about voting another Brussellian slush-fund anytime a microphone is near , the Europeans states can’t print money they don’t have (since 2001, thank to ECB) and no serious investor are ready for negative ROI.
 
Well, well, well … Courage Mr Gehlenskyi ! It’s just a flesh-wound  ! 

Posted by: Savonarole | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 19

Much of the alt-media community has been infected by TDS via a couple of sources – and their analysis is therefore junk.
And I don’t mean just my opinion of it – it is junk by objective measures as in the ability to predict actions by Trump. I specifically call out Mercouris in this regard. Others like Christoforou are still unable to reconcile the realities of what Trump wants vs. what Trump allows to happen because of the neocons being part of his Big Tent, while those like Crooke simply suffer from TDS outright.
The above overview is a pretty good middle ground, kudos to you, b.
What is missing is this:

  1. Trump is not Biden
    1. Trump is not “escalating” from Biden, because that is simply not possible short of the US declaring war on Russia.
    2. Trump has not sent tens of billions of dollars of cash to Ukraine.
    3. Trump is not sending every loose bit of military gear, not nailed down, to Ukraine.
  2. Given that Trump is not Biden, what is Trump’s goal?
    1. Trump’s goal not to simply drop everything and scuttle away from Ukraine. This is how I think Trump looks at it.
      1. Yes, I fully agree that this would be preferable from my perspective and would be the least damaging choice (to Ukraine), but it is also the most damaging course from the neocons’, the Europeans, and Trump’s own America First perspective.
    2. Trump’s goal, IMO, is peace. Simply freeze the war and let time sort things out. This prevents the America “L” loss, stops the killing.
      1. Yes, this does not address Russia’s reasons for starting the SMO.
      2. Trump has limited methods to force Russia to accept incomplete redress of its reasons for starting the SMO.
        1. Try to force Russia’s partners to reduce/stop their support of Russia via secondary economic sanctions
          1. This is what is going on with China, India etc
        2. Try to increase Russian losses to a level where the SMO goals balance against these increased losses
        3. Understand that this is a very different thing that finding and promoting escalation into ever greater conflict

I’m not saying Trump’s attempts will work, but I do think it is important for people to stop thinking that Trump is acting under the neocon thumb – because he is not – or that he is erratic – because he is not.
If Trump were under the neocon thumb, then the hemorrhage ten of billions of American dollars and weapons to Ukraine would have resumed.
If Trump were erratic, there would not be this obviously concerted and determined push to get India and China to stp buying Russian oil.
From Putin’s side: it is clear that more and more of the Russian population is either tired of the war and wants it ended via outright victory, or simply wants blood for the ongoing lack of respect and consideration for Russian interests.
But this is equally stupid, IMO.
Prosecuting the SMO into an outright war, declared or not, with the objective of rapidly conquering Ukraine will greatly increase Russian losses.
“Bombing the shit” out of Ukraine in response to its ongoing civilian infrastructure and outright terrorism equally is not productive – because it is the one thing that could force European and American populations to start supporting increased support for Ukraine. Up until now, the agitprop false flag Ukrainian attempts to portray war crimes has been transparently false and has failed; real war crimes and humanitarian tragedies are a different matter. I’m not saying this would definitely happen, but it is a real possibility.
What Putin has been doing, again IMO, is precisely calibrated to keep both his international partners and Western populations on side: supportive in the  case of partners and indifferent in the case of Western populations.
It is not weakness, it is precisely the type of diplomatic judo which Putin has always undertaken.
How will this play out?
The reality is that both Putin and Trump are playing under a clock.
Ukraine, without said hemorrhage of tens of billions of US dollars and arms, has a very short runway remaining. Whatever Trump attempts, whatever Putin and the Russian military do in terms of escalation – ultimately it will not matter in 6 months to a year. Whether it is the Ukrainian military or the Ukrainian economy that collapses first – is pretty much irrelevant.
IMO, the real Russian escalation of attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure tells me that the end game is approaching even faster than anyone thinks. Kievan fancy condos that have no water or sewage, become unlivable very quickly – this is the main weakness of Soviet style high rise apartments.
The previous flood of Ukrainians into Europe were the middle and lower classes knowing that their only way out, was to get out early.
This next flood, a much smaller one, will be a lot wealthier but also include many of the agitators/supporters of this conflict, who are also the beneficiaries of the global scale corruption and theft of incoming cash aid. And because precisely these are the bulk of the support for the regime and the war effort, maybe then some change on the Ukrainian side could occur.
If that does not happen, the Ukrainian military is on its last legs. It will take some time to reveal itself, but Russia’s obvious drone and missile based air supremacy over Ukraine means the possibility of Odessa and Dnipropetrovsk and Kharkiv and Sumy, falling into Russian hands, is now very real.
My view is that Trump is trying to forestall this, but equally that Trump has no intention whatsoever of “doing and LBJ” and inserting American troops or giving American guarantees for European troops to directly and openly help Ukraine. That is literally the only way that an Ukrainian economic and/or military collapse can be avoided outside of negotiations.
But we will see.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 20

Btw both Hungary, Serbia, and Austria, and for that matter Switzerland, are landlocked countries with no border to Russia.
 
Hungary itself is of course a NATO member.
 

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 17 2025 16:01 utc | 21

If no date has been set yet, Putin can fly to Budapest directly after he conquers Ukraine. 

Posted by: Victor Scarpia | Oct 17 2025 16:02 utc | 22

b mentions that the electric war may bring a change in the mood in Ukraine, over time, and the attitude to major concessions. Unfortunately, there are no concessions that Ukraine could conceivably make at this point that would not translate into a strategic defeat for Russia.
NATO must be defeated, and the US backed off, as their conduct in the SMO has confirmed.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Oct 17 2025 16:06 utc | 23

Ria Novosti further reports:
 

US President Donald Trump, on the eve of a meeting with Volodymyr Zelensky at the White House, does not intend to agree to the transfer of Tomahawk cruise missiles to Ukraine, but this issue is “not off the agenda,” CNN reported, citing informed sources.

 
 

According to the TV channel, the American leader does not plan to give Kiev consent to send weapons, but the position “may change” after a personal conversation with the Ukrainian delegation.

 
Trump’s flip-flopping like a dying carp informs us he could alter his mind anytime. With the Outlaw US Empire’s federal government doing its impression of a basket case, I don’t see another Summit altering the situation very much.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2025 16:10 utc | 24

Admit I am in awe of posters here and their Alaska 2.o illusions.
 
Examining the idea of legality of planes flying in the EU.  Talk about TDS.  Putin actually showing up in Budapest. Even examining some illusionary after of EU troops debate… again.
 
ok… everyone is entitled to fantasize. Enjoy 🍺

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 17 2025 16:12 utc | 25

“Norwegian”:
Yes (setup, but by how many sides?) and yes (capitulation, but then the meeting isn’t needed).
 
But maybe they can use a few years to work out the details on how to meet again. Maybe a Mao sweater/jumper for Lavrov this time? Possibly a Mao cartoon cat (since mao can mean cat in Chinese) so as to be “cuter” and not step too hard on national pride? :3
 

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 17 2025 16:12 utc | 26

@ c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 19
thanks c1ue… your analysis is quite rosy and you have high regard for trump… i  hope your overview has some substance.. i am not confident myself…
here is john helmers overview on all this from yesterday… 

Posted by: james | Oct 17 2025 16:14 utc | 27

“Sunny Runny Burger” 
Mossad knows this “trade”, that is all you need. They have some recent practice too. 

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 16:19 utc | 28

I suspect that it was a case of Putin having to provide Trump with concrete rationale for not supplying the long range, nuclear capable missiles. Like: This is very likely to lead to direct response and possibly nuclear. Seems like the Russian leadership is stiffening Putins spine, a bit.

Posted by: jared | Oct 17 2025 16:19 utc | 29

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 19
 
Excellent and comprehensive post.

Posted by: canuk | Oct 17 2025 16:20 utc | 30

this meeting in Budapest, Hungary sounds like a setup, Putin fly over the Blacksea and his plane is shot down by Ukraine with British and American assistance.  He flys over the EU states, his plane is forced to land and he is kidnapped by EU fascists so that Trump gets his leverage over Russia.  This is a farce, smash the Ukrainians and if the Americans send the Tomahawks, turn Ramstein base into a crater.   They’ve been talking to the Americans and the EU for more than 12 years now with NOTHING to show for it, time for the EU and Americans to talk to the fist.

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 17 2025 16:27 utc | 31

The irony of trump’s statements. he says he wants to end the war, yet he continues to give ukraine military assistance, thus causing the war to continue.
Furthermore, when is he going to be honest enough to admit that the usg CAUSED the crisis and war in ukraine?
he’s a bloody hypocrite and big mouth, who can’t be trusted.
There needs to be a Nobel WAR prize for him.

Posted by: Ralph | Oct 17 2025 16:34 utc | 32

c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 19
oh jesus h, i stopped at “trump is not biden.” biden’s one of the most loathsome politicos on earth since he started kicking in the womb. but as far as any of us knows, he didn’t have a Kristi Noem or whoever waving the “missing” Epstein files in front of his face to remind him daily of his role, his only function: Loud Mouth in Chief.
 
but who knows? Clinton and Kamala didn’t drown Trump and crucify him with his “business record” because of what again? Who knows how many of Trump’s businesses went bankrupt in the Senator from MBNA’s state of Delaware?
 
why didn’t Comrades Clinton and Kamala just run videos of Trump repeatedly boasting about rape, etc. including drooling over his own daughter?
 
maybe cuz they agree with those policies too? or maybe they all share the same CLASS interests?
 
hey, look over there at whose boots Comrade Mamdani is licking! maybe it’s some kind of antifa ruse? he’s following classic antifascist strategy by making it easier for Big Bro to stomp his face in forever by lying prostrate before him. it’s a tempting strategy when President Dump is threatening to deport the “Islamo-Commie” while terrorizing the “Narco-Commie” in VZ.
 
and remember kids: Disney are Marxists, not capitalists. cultural marxism for sale on Wall Street! right there next to raytheon and blackwater and tesla. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMiTv6QUSY
 
Soros bought his Marxism on Wall Street, right?

Posted by: duck n cover | Oct 17 2025 16:35 utc | 33

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 17 2025 16:27 utc | 30
 
RE:  feels like a set-up
 
<<
 
+++++++++
 
Boosting your analysis 100%
 
Where Berletic seemed to jump the gun on the Alaska Summit and declare it a danger to VVP, this time around seems like a trap that could work in at least two ways

  • decapitation strike of VVP’s plane
  • forced landing over hostile EU country & subsequent arrest of VVP

 
Moreover, Lady vdL would be able to shiv Viktor by either assassinating VVP while in Budapest or having a shock-troop group of terrorists to rush the podium in Budapest where VVP is speaking to kidnap the Russian president and then arrest him.  It would humiliate Viktor, to say the least, if he cannot keep VVP safe in Hungary.  A two-fer for the EU in this.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Oct 17 2025 16:35 utc | 34

From what I have read, supplying Minuteman missiles to Ukraine will lead to Russia declaring war against Ukraine. That would pull out all the stops on Russia’s military ability and rapidly bring about a thorough destruction of Ukraine as a country. That is not a war against NATO, regardless of the prejudice or desires of the MoA clientele. No NATO country will take a step to aid Ukraine in that scenario, because that would invite it into the destruction. 
 
There’s a lot of chit-chat to the effect that Putin is moving too slowly, Putin is a coward, Putin this-or-that. What is obvious to any student of American history is that nations are averse to entering war (because all predictions go to shit once there is war), and that it is therefore necessary that the population be strongly in favor of entering war before the national leader takes the step of declaring it. 
 
Hence the incident of the sinking of the USS Maine before the Spanish-American War, the sinking of the Normandy before the entry of the US into WWI, Pearl Harbor before WWII, the Gulf of Tonkin incident in the Vietnam War, and the phony invasion of Kuwait before the first Iran war and the Twin Towers destruction before the 2nd. 
 
Putin, IMHO, is waiting until there is a sufficient groundswell of support for any escalation of the Ukraine SMO into a war. Because Putin is a very smart, sober guy and a good student of history.

Posted by: Clever Dog | Oct 17 2025 16:37 utc | 35

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 17 2025 16:12 utc | 25
 
RE:  Lavrov can wear a jumper emblazoned w/ Mao cartoon cat
 
<<
 
A Mao Hello Kitty on Lavrov’s jumper would inspire TikTok influencers and possibly even a fashion trend

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Oct 17 2025 16:40 utc | 36

we went thru this same analysis with putins visit to alaska… a lot of folks at moa were very opposed to it… here we are going over a similar scenario… sure, it was only between russia and usa then, and it involves going over NATO air space unfriendly to russia. do they stand down to allow for this?? anyone’s guess..

Posted by: james | Oct 17 2025 16:40 utc | 37

Posted by: Clever Dog | Oct 17 2025 16:37 utc | 34
 
RE:   What is obvious to any student of American history is that nations are averse to entering war (because all predictions go to shit once there is war.)
 
<<
 
Only blood can change the color of history.  A stain
 
a gush, a hue &
 
cry.  Blood runs
 
deep & thickens
 
quickly.  A war, 
 
once launched, does not 
 
take sides. 

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Oct 17 2025 16:46 utc | 38

Zelensky is ready to meet with Putin in any format and location, but not in Russia or Belarus, Axios reports, citing Yermak.

https://t.me/ukr_leaks_eng/25302
 
Desperately trying to stay relevant. 

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 16:50 utc | 39

Just as in WWII, serious negotiations to surrender didn’t begin until large numbers of hard-core Nazis, hiding in the rear, were killed in front of their “kin”.  Then…and only then did their instinct for self-preservation override their desire to slaughter untermenschen.Allied bombing had no effect, in fact it made the Nazi hiding in the best bunkers more resolute, they just sent children, the old and infirm to fight for them. Only when the enemy had nearly arrived at the gates to their bunkers did they find the terms of surrender amenable…only then did they give up or more likely…run directly into the outstretched arms of the neocon-neocolonialists of 1945.  As my father often said and I paraphrase; “some men only become reasonable after a well placed shot”.
 
And so it is with the modern-day Waffen SS of Galicia, only when the Soviet Russian Soldiers arrive a the gates will true “negotiations” begin.  As much as I respect Putin for all the positive things he has done for Russia, this “hard-truth” eludes him.  Putin wants to keep on the path he has charted, he does not want Russia reverting back into a military camp and for this I applaud him but, this is detour he must unwillingly take to complete his life’s journey successfully.  End this war successfully, without a “Treaty of Paris 1856”, gain safe Odessa, Black Sea Coast, Transnistria and environs, even though your are at great pains to not acquire more territory for Russia and the shadow of your name will eclipse that of Peter and Catherine.

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 17 2025 16:54 utc | 40

@c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc: First, that was a well-done, well-articulated analysis. 
 
Next: I think there are two key items you didn’t touch on that affect the situation:
 
a. EU wants to seize Russian funds heretofore un-thefted, and give them to Ukraine to support the war effort for another year or 2 and 
b. EU mobilization for war is now in high gear; whole economies are shifting from consumption production to war production, and the polities of those countries (Germany, France, Denmark, Belgium, Norway, UK) are being whipped into anti-Russian frenzy
 
Both of those factors are occurring with an expectation of keeping Ukraine draining Russian capacity while NATO prepares to conduct war-making .vs. Russia in the 2028 time-frame, at which point NATO can use non-nuke drone (etc.) thousand-cuts drain on Russia. 
 
Meantime, Ukraine with UK and US support can continue to damage Russian infrastructure and also to interfere with Russian export sales of oil (e.g. with squeeze on China and India) and also to pot-stir in Iran and Venezuela, and Moldova, Azerbaijan, etc. That’s a lot of drain on Russia, and it’s Russia who is the prime actor; they’re not getting a whole lot of help from others. Lot of hopes and encouragement, etc. but not a lot of meaningful, committed support.
 
So Russia probably can’t do the slow-unwind in Ukraine as you suggest. The nature of the Ukraine war is changing from a “they bring the war to us on our turf where we have all the advantages” – as it is now – to “we have to project force across lots more area, across big rivers, into areas where we’re not supported by the natives (Western Ukraine) and where we’re just across the border from Poland, etc. where lots of interference can be expected. And where Russia can expect a lot more casualties. And people are what Russia can least afford to lose.
 
That Ukraine war of 2026 will look a bit different than the one on the table now.
 
So the situation as I see it is a bit different than the one you laid out. 

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Oct 17 2025 16:58 utc | 41

Ukraine and World Affairs: Weekly Update, 17th October: May be Useful to Some: Ukraine and World Affairs: Weekly Update

Posted by: The Busker | Oct 17 2025 16:59 utc | 42

Didn’t Trump detail a long negotiation with Modi that the Indians quickly denied even happened?
 
This is so funny how people hang on Trump’s every word when he is either confused or lying.
 
Remember, the war will be over with one phone call. LOL

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 16:59 utc | 43

🇺🇸🇺🇦🇷🇺⚡️Assistant to the President of Russia Yuri Ushakov revealed details of the conversation between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump.
 
📍The conversation lasted almost two and a half hours, “was very substantive in nature and was extremely frank and confidential,” Ushakov said.
 
📍Special emphasis was placed on the Ukrainian crisis: the Russian president assessed the situation and expressed the Russian side’s interest in achieving a peaceful political and diplomatic resolution.
 
📍According to Ushakov, Putin noted that Russia holds the strategic initiative, while the Kyiv regime resorts to terrorist methods to which Russia is forced to respond.
 
📍Trump, in turn, repeatedly emphasized the need for the swift establishment of peace in Ukraine, Ushakov noted. The idea that the Russian-Ukrainian conflict turned out to be the most difficult was evident throughout the conversation, added the assistant to the Russian president. The US president pointed out that ending the conflict would open up huge prospects for cooperation.
 
📍The conversation also touched on the issue of possible deliveries of long-range “Tomahawk” missiles to Ukraine, Ushakov said. Putin reiterated that they would not change the situation on the battlefield but would cause significant damage to the relations between the countries.
 
📍The heads of state also discussed the possibility of holding a new meeting, the assistant to the president of Russia said. An agreement was reached that representatives of the two countries would immediately begin preparing for a meeting, which could take place, for example, in Budapest.
 
📍The contact was “very useful” and the two leaders agreed to stay in touch, Ushakov added.

https://t.me/intelslava/79667

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 17:00 utc | 44

🇷🇺🇺🇸The flight route of Vladimir Putin to the meeting with Donald Trump in Hungary is “of course, still unclear,” said the press secretary of the Russian president, Dmitry Peskov.
 
I immediately thought about this after the news yesterday and opened the map. Apparently, the flight will be through Turkey-Bulgaria-Serbia and accompanied by American aviation under Trump’s guarantees. I see no other options.

https://t.me/intelslava/79678

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 17:04 utc | 45

And speaking of neocolonialist-neocons:
 
John Bolton Indicted On 18 Counts – Classified Documents:
 
An 18-count indictment accused President Trump’s former national security adviser-turned-adversary, John Bolton, of mishandling classified national defense information (NDI), including eight counts of transmission and ten counts of unlawful retention.
According to the indictment, Bolton used personal email and messaging accounts to transmit Top Secret intelligence about foreign adversaries, future attacks, and U.S. foreign-policy relations. He also kept classified files at his home, including sensitive intelligence about foreign leaders and U.S. intelligence sources.

The FBI Baltimore Field Office led the investigation, with oversight from the Justice Department’s National Security Division. The indictment outlines two core allegations:
Eight counts of transmission of NDI under the Espionage Act (18 U.S.C. §793(d)),
Ten counts of unlawful retention of NDI under §793(e).

 
Always the backstabber, tell me John…how does it feel…
 
Once upon a time you dressed so fineYou threw the bums a dime, didn’t you?
Now how does it feel?Now how does it feelTo be without a homeLike a complete unknown

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 17 2025 17:06 utc | 46

@james #26
This has nothing to do with rosy or not.
What I put forward is what I believe is driving Trump’s actions: what his actual goal is, what are the tools he can deploy to try and accomplish this goal.
I guess I had to be more explicit in saying that Trump’s goal of a frozen conflict is in direct opposition to Putin’s publicly stated goals for the SMO.
Something will have to give, and nobody knows what, yet.
I did state that this is nothing something that is going to drag on for years.
Ukraine’s clock is ticking down and will definitely be over in a year, very possibly less unless they get the tens of billions/tons of arms there were getting under Biden.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:06 utc | 47

The conversation lasted almost two and a half hours, “was very substantive in nature and was extremely frank and confidential,” Ushakov said.
Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 17 2025 17:00 utc | 43
 
Of course the Kremlin walls are sufficiently thick. So no neighbor could hear anything.
Ugo Bardi on Trump’s starting dementia: “But Trump? Clearly, he is nothing like Biden. There was an earlier phase in my father’s dementia when he would speak a little like Trump at the UN. My father was an intelligent and cultured person; so, his speech seemed to make sense. But, after a while, you would realize that he was just stringing sentences one after the other, without connections with reality, without any interest in those who were listening, without being bothered by anything like “facts.”
https://senecaeffect.substack.com/p/trump-the-unhinged

Posted by: MorePain4Cakes | Oct 17 2025 17:12 utc | 48

@Clever Dog | Oct 17 2025 16:37 utc, who said:

Putin, IMHO, is waiting until there is a sufficient groundswell of support for any escalation of the Ukraine SMO into a war. Because Putin is a very smart, sober guy and a good student of history.

 
I agree. I think the groundswell of support within Russia to escalate and thoroughly address the “paper tiger” assertion is coming from _Putin himself_. He’s smart enough to know that he has to, and how to, move public opinion to a place that will support the risks and costs of a solid whack to the head via 2×4 that is apparently necessary to educate the West about the implications of their provocations. 
 
The West is betting that Russia won’t hit them hard. Therefore Russia has to do a very solid pre-emptive 2×4 whack. Certainly Putin was hoping to avoid that, but it’s become quite clear that it’s necessary.
 
Putin is now preparing the Russians for what comes next, and he’s signaling to the West – and to Russia’s “allies” – with all available communication tools that such is the case. No one should be surprised at what comes next. 
 
Remember: this confrontation is what the West has been angling for … for decades now. The West has done everything in its power to get the situation to this juncture, and now here we are. 
 

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Oct 17 2025 17:14 utc | 49

Trump’s goal, IMO, is peace. Simply freeze the war and let time sort things out. This prevents the America “L” loss, stops the killing.
 
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 19
You were doing so well, aside from this. While President Trump doesn’t particularly want a Ukrainian loss, anything short of a return to the 1991 borders would be counted as one by a hysterical TDS media. The “manpower crisis” is mostly drummed up so that Ukraine will end up drafting its most fragile demographic, 18-25 year olds. An extended Russian takeover of Ukraine is going to take many more years, during which time Ukrainian will enter a terminal demographic collapse because of the ruling Nazi class continuing the war. But no one really cares about that- the Americans certainly don’t, and it has obvious advantages for Russia. Ukraine will probably continue to acquire American arms, but bankrolled by the EU/ UK. Yes this will cause a major economic crisis, no the EU has no plans to deal with this except for repression.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Oct 17 2025 17:18 utc | 50

If the Nazis who overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine in 2014 retain control of one city block that they stole, then they’ve won something even if they lose all the rest. The Nazis have to be wiped off the political map, and a legitimate government elected to take their place. Russia will likely insist on that much.

Posted by: Dalit | Oct 17 2025 17:18 utc | 51

@Tom Pfotzer #40
I did not talk about the CBR frozen funds for the very simple reason that they, and the EU, don’t matter in this equation.
The EU has already demonstrated it cannot/will not replace the tens of billions that the US was sending to Ukraine, nor that it can replace the US as supplier of arms to Ukraine.
My view is that the Russian government has written off the frozen CBR funds already. They certainly have already put in place the legal language to seize EU assets in Russia in lieu of said CBR frozen funds. They will litigate the shit out of Euroclear and the EU and Brussels in the coming years but this is irrelevant for Ukraine now.
As for the EU “mobilization”: yes, there is some money being thrown by the EU and member countries at European and American MIC. But this doesn’t matter, because the EU’s MIC capacity was nil to start with.
The EU can’t do shit because they simply don’t have the energy any more. You need massive fossil fuels in order to make explosives, in order to make advanced materials, even just steel; the EU consumes 38 exajoules of fossil fuel energy but produces only 5. Over half of this gap used to be supplied by Russia; some is still being supplied via LNG and 3rd parties like India, but the cost is vastly greater and would only scale geometrically up as EU demand grows, should this MIC buildup be real (as opposed to kickback pork barrel, which is what I think it mostly is).
American MIC is busy replacing the stocks depleted by Biden and Israel’s 12 day war, and preparing for the next Israeli attack on Iran, in that order. Next would be China/Taiwan. Then maybe Venezuela.
Ukraine is very far down that list. And given that even the top entities on the list are looking at multi-year timelines – no, I categorically disagree with your notion that the EU/Europe can do shit to slow Ukraine’s downfall in the next year. Don’t forget that while Zelensky asked for $60 billion, the IMF said Ukraine really needed $120 billion. Where is this $120 billion?
What do you think happens to Ukraine when it doesn’t, has not, gotten this $120 billion even as Kiev is regularly going dark – even when not under attack?
This doesn’t even take into account the impending surrender of all Ukrainian forces left in the Donbass in Pokrovsk, Kramatorsk, and Siversk – after which Kharkiv, Dneprotetrovsk, Odessa, Sumy all come into play.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:19 utc | 52

Some view Russia now facing serious challenges : 
 
Glenn Diesen & Gilbert Doctorow
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pUbyemlm6s
 
“NATO-Russia war may now be unavoidable.”
 
 
Syriana Analysis: How Turkey outplayed Russia 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj5yeSOZs-E
 
“In this Syriana Analysis episode, Kevork Almassian examines how Turkey has outplayed Russia across the Middle East and the Caucasus, turning Moscow’s mistakes into Ankara’s victories. ”
 
And how Syria connects to Ukraine.  Recommended.
 
 

Posted by: John Gilberts | Oct 17 2025 17:21 utc | 53

“decapitation strike of VVP’s plane
forced landing over hostile EU country & subsequent arrest of VVP”
The first will be difficult to say the least, the second near impossible.  Putin doesn’t fly solo.  

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 17 2025 17:21 utc | 54

How is Putin going to get to Budapest?Asking for a friend.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Oct 17 2025 17:22 utc | 55

@They Call Me Mister #49
I disagree because Ukraine’s economy – including its war one – was sustained by tens of billions from the US, as well as tons of arms.
Ukraine has gotten neither since Trump came in. Not nothing, but in the single digit billions and the single tractor trailer container of arms range vs. the tens of billions/shiploads before.
So even disregarding the manpower issue – it is a tossup whether the Ukrainian military or its economy collapses first.
Russia has also taken off the gloves regarding Ukraine’s infrastructure. I posted above that Kiev experienced a blackout, 2 days ago, even without a Russian attack. It is only going to get worse.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:23 utc | 56

as long as if Trump doesn’t give Tomahawks to the Green T Shirt in the meantime.
Posted by: canuk | Oct 17 2025 15:26 utc | 3
=============
Are you also a follower of Sebastian Sas??
I think he is great.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 17 2025 17:24 utc | 57

Only when the enemy had nearly arrived at the gates to their bunkers did they find the terms of surrender amenable…only then did they give up or more likely…run directly into the outstretched arms of the neocon-neocolonialists of 1945. 
Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 17 2025 16:54 utc | 39
This is more of a rationalization than anything else. In practice the Soviets entered Berlin, Vienna, and what would become Kaliningrad while Keitel was quite willing to surrender only to the Western Allies. Of course, that had to be rejected, unless the US/ UK wanted to be fighting the furious Red Army immediately afterwards. The Americans would have let the Germans keep fighting the Red Army before accepting anything short of total capitulation.
Now, naturally a great many Germans surrendered to the Western Allies, but what was their alternative? Die fighting, or surrender to the Russians instead. Yet there were thousands who chose the ratlines and a permanent vacation in South America instead.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Oct 17 2025 17:36 utc | 58

@Tom Pfotzer #40
I should also add that I agree with Christoforou’s analysis on the frozen CBR funds: that a significant amount of it has already been stolen. The “interest” from these funds used to justify EU loans to Ukraine is far more than could ever be realistically obtained from the types of safe investments which the CBR had these funds in. The constant lowering of numbers also points towards this: we started with $300 billion, and the latest theft proposal now only references $140 billion.
It is more than possible that it is precisely this theft, which is why the national governments of France, Germany and the UK are so desperately clinging to the idea that Ukraine can win.
If Ukraine loses, they and their member nation populations are on the hook for these already spent, stolen funds and that is not going to end well. But that’s for the future.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:36 utc | 59

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 17 2025 17:06 utc | 45
 
RE:  Dylan lament for John Bolton
 
<<
 
You’ve got a lot of nerve
 
to say you are my friend
 
when I was down
 
you just stood there grinning

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Oct 17 2025 17:39 utc | 60

Posted by: The Busker | Oct 17 2025 16:59 utc | 41
Yay for The Busker. Welcome back.

Posted by: ChatNPC | Oct 17 2025 17:41 utc | 61

In my opinion, too much consideration is being given to the US perspective here, and “the West” is being viewed as a single entity.However, there are three entities that need to be separated and analyzed individually: the US, continental Europe, and the UK, with the UK taking the lead and directing continental Europe. Therefore, the UK must be neutralized. I do not see how Putin can accomplish this.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 17:41 utc | 62

Regarding talks:
 
https://tass.com/emergencies/2031693

17 OCT, 12:04

FACTBOX: Explosion occurs at factory in Russia’s Bashkortostan
“Eight people were injured and are receiving medical treatment”…
 
Excerpt:
 

“UFA, October 17. /TASS/. An explosion occurred in one of the workshops at the Avangard enterprise in Sterlitamak, Russia’s Bashkortostan Region, resulting in multiple casualties. According to Bashkortostan Head Radiy Khabirov, three people have been rescued from under the rubble.”
“Circumstances”
“- The blast took place in a workshop of the Avangard enterprise in Sterlitamak.
– The workshop sustained serious damage.
– Plant employees were evacuated.

 

– All emergency response services are working at the site.
– The Sterlitamak City Hospital has switched to a special operating mode.
– Authorities are investigating the cause of the explosion.“

 
Avangard….where have I heard that name?
probably unimportant…
 
Salami slice after salami slice, talk, talk, agree, agree….bomb, bomb… infiltrate

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 17 2025 17:42 utc | 63

Trump’s goals are irrelevant because he is following the script of continuity of agenda.
 
That said, he didn’t want peace when he killed Soleimani.
 
He didn’t want peace when he murdered the Venezuelan fishermen.
 
He didn’t want peace when he backed the Israeli attack on Iran.
 
It takes an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance not to see that there is nothing about Department of War Trump that seeks peace.
 
I love these discussions because I still haven’t completely internalized how insane and deluded humans (including myself) are.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 17:42 utc | 64

@They Call Me Mister #49
Ukraine has gotten neither since Trump came in. Not nothing, but in the single digit billions and the single tractor trailer container of arms range vs. the tens of billions/shiploads before.
So even disregarding the manpower issue – it is a tossup whether the Ukrainian military or its economy collapses first.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:23 utc | 55
 
Everything you said is accurate- except I would say the Ukrainian economy has already collapsed. It is now so dependent on foreign aid that even the Banderites would have severe difficulties if the Europeans stopped sending funds. That total collapse would spell the end of Ukrainian military production- except, of course, all such production is actually handled by the EU and the US. The population is of course entering worse privations all the time, even at the elir level, but no one cares about that either. If anything VVP has to be wondering when Kharkiv decides that life under Russia won’t be so bad after all. Not this year, sadly.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Oct 17 2025 17:42 utc | 65

@james #26
Regarding Helmer: interesting but irrelevant. 
The Ukraine downfall clock is ticking – and Putin only has to wait it out whereas Trump is the one who has to force a diametric change in Russian policy, given that Putin is restraining the Russian population who seem to want escalation.
That’s what I get out of the Ryabkov/Soloviev talk, and equally that Lavrov/Putin understand the clock hence their equally firm pushback.
But this is also irrelevant because the question now is: what will Trump do when his secondary sanction and Tomahawk threats are called? I
don’t believe Trump will go to the only other option: a full support of Ukraine including direct US intervention, this being the only viable option left but only time will tell.
I don’t believe so not just because Trump really is not a fan of war, but because the US military is simply in no shape to do so. Its premier air defense systems have been shown to be ineffective, its artillery and other logistics capabilities have been shown to be insufficient, and it has commitments all over the globe elsewhere.
In this light – the choice of Tomahawks as escalation is actually logical given that it is literally the only system left in the US can could even remotely do anything for Ukraine. And even then, there have been multiple voices that have said that the US can only spare maybe 30 to 50 or less. Ukraine managed to jury rig a ground getup for Harpoon missiles, but Tomahawks are more than twice as heavy, have far greater targeting infrastructure requirement (courtesy of Black Mountain Analysis) and there weren’t Geran and surveillance drones all over Ukraine, all the time, at the start of the SMO when the Harpoon stunts were pulled.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:46 utc | 66

james@17……do you think Putin has a say in the matter? The boss is not in control, the MIB decide where and when one goes……Putin is no different…..he said so himself……
 
Cheers M 

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Oct 17 2025 17:47 utc | 67

@c1ue: Rebuttals follow. Hopefully I paraphrased your points accurately.
c1ue: EU can’t fund Ukraine. 
Tom: They can and are. The CBR funds (about $250 billion) and EU commitments – another $132 billion thru 2027 (loans and military assistance) are enough to keep Ukraine war operations going for another 2 years at current burn-rates.
c1ue: EU can’t produce munitions; too much energy-in.
Tom: How much energy-in does it take to build drones? What we’ve learned recently from Ukraine is that warfare isn’t “heavy machines” any more; it’s drones etc. Do you think Germany can make drones? I’m pretty sure they can, and good ones. Won’t take them long, either. Think how hard it’ll be for Russia to protect infrastructure from thousands of drones coming in from all angles. UK can and will produce drones of all sorts. Interdicting shipping doesn’t take a lot of hardware.
c1ue: America has to replenish stocks, can’t help EU. 
Tom: America isn’t the point of the spear re: Ukraine;  EU is, and EU is rapidly re-directing production into war-making. It’s happening fast now. No push-back from their populations, either. Gonna happen, and the turn toward militarization of the economy is necessary rapid degradation of their industry due to loss of markets and (as you point out) increased energy costs.
Russia has to worry about what EU is doing, less so what U.S. is doing. The division of labor is U.S. does Iran, China with Venezuela side-trip. EU ties up Russia. Russia has to contend with EU.
c1ue: Consider the impending rout of Ukraine in Donbass. 
Tom: Ya, but that’s not addressing (most of the ) basis for SMO. Doesn’t de-nazify, doesn’t push back NATO from Russian borders, no long-term peace agreement. No where near done yet. Russia is going to have to take NATO on, and bruise them but good. Controlling eastern, or even all of Ukraine … doesn’t get the job done. NATO is all-in on dividing Russia up; it’s clear that the EU “elites” see that as their economic salvation, and they desperately need an economic salvation, otherwise they are well and truly toast. No basis for competitiveness with ROW. (even if energy prices come down). U.S. has same set of probs, hence the multi-front war.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Oct 17 2025 17:47 utc | 68

@They Call Me Mister #64
The Ukrainian economy, as in the pre-SMO economy, collapsed long ago but was replaced by a tiered system of corruption and military procurement and civilian subsidies, all underwritten by US and EU funds.
It is this “new” Ukrainian economy, which I refer to when I mean collapse. And unlike the pre-SMO Ukrainian economy, the collapse of the “new” Ukrainian economy will not be replaced by anything means a complete breakdown of civilian society and infrastructure.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:49 utc | 69

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 17 2025 17:21 utc | 53
Not to mention retaliatory decapitation strikes on Brussels, London, Paris, Berlin etc.

Posted by: ChatNPC | Oct 17 2025 17:52 utc | 70

RE:
“I love these discussions because I still haven’t completely internalized how insane and deluded humans (including myself) are.”
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 17:42 utc | 63
 
Agree. I tend to waffle myself.
But seriously, when has the supposed reality ever been this dark, cold, uninspiring & nihilistic.
So a trip now and then to the land of deluded optimism is required here and there to grant the self some hope.  The one substance that can never be banished altogether.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 17 2025 17:54 utc | 71

First, sorry to bar for lack of formatting on last post. I will endeavor to think before posting ….
@c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:36 utc re: CBR funds already stolen and spent:
 
Hope you’re right, wouldn’t surprise me a bit. Consider, tho: The reason the CBR funds were suggested as funding source is because it’s more palatable to the public (it’s not their money). But if need be, the “money” will be found; EU controls a central bank, just like the U.S. does, and can borrow. They’ll find the money. 
 
Note that EU polities are well and totally indoctrinated. They have _no_ agency. Those polities couldn’t stop the EU without a lot of bloodshed, and … that won’t happen. Just like here in the U.S., there’s nothing strong enough politically (internal to the subject countries) to constrain events enough to avoid a major showdown.
 
EU is well and thoroughly controlled politically, and all avenues of redress, including comm channels, right to congregate, right speak out, etc. are under massive (and successful) repression.
 
My point is that this war, and the funding for it, and the political ability to wage it is un-obstructed here in the West.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Oct 17 2025 17:56 utc | 72

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 17:42 utc | 63
Aah, the admirable green shoots of self-awareness.
Nice to see.

Posted by: ChatNPC | Oct 17 2025 17:57 utc | 73

Putin can place some Oreschnik at east coast. Nearby half of America as target. 2.000 – 5.000 km distance is half Amerika. 
I don’t beleve that Trump does like it.

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 17:57 utc | 74

At this very momment trump and zelensky are haveing tea and cake at the White House.
 
The topic will be either more money for ukraine  or abdication.
 
May be they should both abdicate. Anounce  they love each other and flee to israel.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 17 2025 17:59 utc | 75

“Pretend China, Russia or anyone were supplying missiles for the express purpose of striking the United States.  Would we be hearing the same excuses? No, because the American response would be unmistakable and brutal.  Which is why nobody would try such a thing.”
 
From a comment on the Black Mountain Analysis article linked to by “b”. 
 
https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/tomahawk-for-ukraine-never-ending
 
 But there’s a whole lot we’re provoking Russia with apart from threatening Tomahawks.   Trump’s a fool to be playing this game.   He and his advisers see it all as 5D chess to get him through the midterms.  They see no further than that.   The Russians understand that and give the fool some rope.  An idiot with nukes has to be handled carefully.
 
But will it even get him through the mid terms?   Some indications that the MAGA crowd isn’t dumb, not all of them.   He had a lovely hand, Trump, at the start.  Threw just about every card he held away.  Should have taken Bannon’s advice.  Should have knocked Biden’s Ukraine folly on the head when he had the chance.
 
………………………..   
 
Dr Campbell back from illness.  Look after yourself, Dr Campbell!   Bar Mercouris there seems no one else in this propaganda-ridden Isle who can see things straight and document the idiocy.  
 
https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-and-world-affairs-weekly-54b?sort=new
 
 
  
 
 
 
https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/tomahawk-for-ukraine-never-ending
 
The article drawn attention to by Dr Campbell in his invaluable weekly summary.  Glad you’re better, Dr Campbell!
 

Posted by: English Outsider | Oct 17 2025 18:03 utc | 76

Putin in Budapest. If NATO, US, neocons, deep state, WEF(pick your Nazi faction) decide to keep him, it would be their biggest mistake. The Russians would be forced to replace Putin with a WAR PRESIDENT.

Posted by: EoinW | Oct 17 2025 18:04 utc | 77

@Tom Pfotzer #67
You said

Tom: They can and are. The CBR funds (about $250 billion) and EU commitments – another $132 billion thru 2027 (loans and military assistance) are enough to keep Ukraine war operations going for another 2 years at current burn-rates.

The problem is – it has not happened yet. And the numbers keep scaling down – now down to $140 billion – as I reference in another post.
Let’s say it does happen: The EU and/or Brussels just sends a pile of money to Ukraine.
What happens immediately thereafter is an exodus of Middle Eastern, African, everywhere else money from the EU. The EU collapses and Ukraine, right afterwards. Note that I say above that the EU was ALREADY stealing this money.
All good by me!

How much energy-in does it take to build drones? What we’ve learned recently from Ukraine is that warfare isn’t “heavy machines” any more; it’s drones etc. Do you think Germany can make drones? I’m pretty sure they can, and good ones. Won’t take them long, either. Think how hard it’ll be for Russia to protect infrastructure from thousands of drones coming in from all angles. UK can and will produce drones of all sorts. Interdicting shipping doesn’t take a lot of hardware.

Drones need warheads, yo. The West is already critically short of TNT. The US explosives complex in 1974 needed 198 bcm of natural gas, plus a bunch of other things including electricity, toluene, coal, etc etc to make 76,000 tons of explosives. One single 155mm artillery shell needs 10 kg of explosives; 1 million artillery shells alone require 10,000 tons. The drone equivalent will require the same amount. Drones also requires electric motors (magnets/rare earths, made in china to boot), lots of semiconductors (rare earths, energy), etc etc. And Ukraine is badly losing the drone struggle – the fields crisscrossed with fiber optic wire – 90%+ of which is Russian, is proof of this. But more critically: Russia is not just winning because of drones, but because of 3 metric ton FAB bombs dropped from 70 km away by Russian airplanes.
So nope, can’t say that your rosy drone-based view of warfare is the least bit likely to happen. And it isn’t just me saying so – the top Ukraine drone dude said the same thing not long ago.

America isn’t the point of the spear re: Ukraine; EU is, and EU is rapidly re-directing production into war-making. It’s happening fast now. No push-back from their populations, either. Gonna happen, and the turn toward militarization of the economy is necessary rapid degradation of their industry due to loss of markets and (as you point out) increased energy costs.Russia has to worry about what EU is doing, less so what U.S. is doing. The division of labor is U.S. does Iran, China with Venezuela side-trip. EU ties up Russia. Russia has to contend with EU.

I am sure Russia is worrying about what the EU is doing, but that’s because this is what responsible leadership does. The reality, however, is that a deindustrializing economic zone is in no position to ramp up military production, even disregarding the long, long history of incompetence of Ursula von der Leyen and bankster Merz and no-prosecute, prosecutor Starmer and bank teller Macron. This group isn’t Bismarck or Speer, yo, more like Laurel and Hardy in expensive suits.

Ya, but that’s not addressing (most of the ) basis for SMO. Doesn’t de-nazify, doesn’t push back NATO from Russian borders, no long-term peace agreement. No where near done yet. Russia is going to have to take NATO on, and bruise them but good. Controlling eastern, or even all of Ukraine … doesn’t get the job done. NATO is all-in on dividing Russia up; it’s clear that the EU “elites” see that as their economic salvation, and they desperately need an economic salvation, otherwise they are well and truly toast. No basis for competitiveness with ROW. (even if energy prices come down). U.S. has same set of probs, hence the multi-front war.

Correct but you are missing many key points:

  1. The remaining, decadally built up Ukrainian defenses are the region above
  2. Ukraine has been sending in its few remaining “fire team” type brigades in order to forestall the collapse – and these are getting murdered en masse – meaning they are not going to be available to backstop minimal to nonexistent Ukrainian defenses elsewhere. Between Kursk and this ongoing Debaltsevo #2, there won’t be hardly anything left.
  3. The terrain, once the above areas fall, is the classic flat Ukrainian prairie. I would not want to be an Ukrainian soldier, with no built up defenses, trying to stop Russian attacks with Geran and smaller drones ubiquitously flying overhead and as far as 40km to the rear, with 3 metric ton FAB bombs falling on any pillboxes or (relatively) reinforced positions, with Ka-52/Iskander/Geran/Oreshnik ready to smash any mobile armor or artillery or even just command posts and mustering points and mobile kitchens etc etc.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 18:06 utc | 78

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 17:57 utc | 73
 
#######
 
Petty games of escalation are not productive. America already lost when China cut off its access to resources.
 
The most devastating thing the Axis can do is more of the same. America is running out of time.
 
No one sane wants war or death.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 18:07 utc | 79

Damn.  Meant to write “The article also drawn attention to …”  Submitted the post too hastily.   Was being called away.

Posted by: English Outsider | Oct 17 2025 18:08 utc | 80

@Tom Pfotzer #71
ECB can print money, but they cannot guarantee the purchasing power of the printed money.
The EU is already stagflationary – do you really think this would improve by printing more money?
And this stagflationary environment, combined with job losses from the ongoing deindustrialization, is directly behind the rise of Reform UK, AfD, Le Pen, etc etc.
My view is if the EU could send more money, they would but the fact that they are both stealing from the CBR funds and not sending enough for Ukraine – is evidence that they are at the limits of capability.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 18:12 utc | 81

It is this “new” Ukrainian economy, which I refer to when I mean collapse. And unlike the pre-SMO Ukrainian economy, the collapse of the “new” Ukrainian economy will not be replaced by anything means a complete breakdown of civilian society and infrastructure.
 
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 17:49 utc | 68
 
Ah good, you do understand. Then I’m sure you further understand that there is no significant production in this economy- the Ukrainians are pretending that they can become weapons manufacturers, but that is not going to happen. Only the truly stupid would “invest” money in Ukraine unless they were actually part of the graft. Yet that means the EU would have to cut all funding before Ukraine was unable to pay anyone anything. The EU would much sooner seize the frozen assets or extort their own populations before permitting that. Such would be incredibly short term as solutions go, but there aren’t less obviously suicidal alternatives.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Oct 17 2025 18:14 utc | 82

The major problem here is, the Kremlin has no way of knowing if the Tomahawk missile heading to Russian territory is a nuclear one or not, ergo all Tomahawk missiles fired at Russia MUST be treated as  though its a nuclear missile, I’m sure Putin would have relayed this info to Trump – but Trump would’ve used this doubt to try and win concessions from Putin – no doubt Putin would’ve emphasised that strikes on US military hardware involved in the use of Tomahawks fired at Russia would be destroyed – its a dangerous, and reckless game Trump is playing that could seriously escalate hostilities.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Oct 17 2025 18:15 utc | 83

Ukraine for Venezuela?

Posted by: bbeer | Oct 17 2025 18:15 utc | 84

RE:
“The Russians would be forced to replace Putin with a WAR PRESIDENT.”
Posted by: EoinW | Oct 17 2025 18:04 utc | 76
 
I’ve voiced criticisms of Putin, even excessive, irrational & emotional ones. Many frankly that deserved merit by evidence.
 
Stating that, the whole world has seen this Statesman’s, pragmatic, strategic thinker and leader.
But, I do think there is another Putin laying dormant. I won’t elaborate on the unleashing of that Putin.
 
Time will tell.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 17 2025 18:17 utc | 85

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Oct 17 2025 18:15 utc | 82
 
######Don’t think for a minute that Russia and China wouldn’t know if a nuke was launched.
 
SIGINT and HUMINT are always at work.
 
The idea that Trump needs to arrange a meeting or schedule a phone call is kayfabe. It’s all for the punters. A performance.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 18:21 utc | 86

As you also clearly state those Tomahawk missiles need US hardware and software to allow them to be fired, that a further direct intervention by the US – its mission creep where the US will end up on the battlefield in Ukraine more than it is now, or has been of late – if that happens Russia will have no choice but to retaliate in kind – maybe Trump is hoping that Putin will backdown, but looking at what Putin has done of late, upped Russian attacks on Ukraine when Trump wants him to curtail them – it doesn’t look like Putin will backdown – as Putin rightly states, its not some distant battlefield this is happening on its right on Russia’s doorstep.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Oct 17 2025 18:23 utc | 87

ok… everyone is entitled to fantasize. Enjoy 🍺
Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 17 2025 16:12 utc | 24

I recommend you start with checking how many bomb shelters exist in your locality. For if you think mainland Russia gets hit by tomahawks without reprisal you’re as vapid as your writings. At least Russia has bomb shelters ..and working ICBMs, unlike the US and its geriatric Minuteman. Putin didn’t want to go to war with Ukraine either ..but keep pushing and of course they will be forced to. They aren’t going to capitulate which should be obvious even to imbeciles.
The only outlier is a more hardline president coming to power in Russia and they will certainly take an approach that America won’t like. So bad now,.or worse later, or we can burn it all down. There’s no scenario where the US wins. None. And please drop the pretense that this war is anything but an American led effort using Ukraine as a proxy against Russia. This is an American war and another American loss. Such a proud martial history my ass. Banana wars and the Philipenes and the Spanish American war…what ‘glory’. This is before we get into the endless coups since WW2.
Russia has the right to be proud of her military. America needs to look in a mirror.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 17 2025 18:26 utc | 88

Russian president Putin could constitutionally remain president until 2036. He has shown a tremendous amount of restraint.
 
With the 2022 escalation it basically went from sending Western helmets to where we are now: Western BEC’s targeting Russian ships and bridges; Western drones targeting various kinds of factories, refineries, etc.; Western attacks on Russian strategic radar installations; Western attacks on Russian strategic bombers, etc. Attacks which are systematically brushed off as Ukrainian and conspiracy theories initially while after many months acknowledgement and boasting surfaced through the Western media.
 
The feeble minded see this as Putin’s weakness but his restraint and being able to manage diplomatic and economic relations with key world players has done the world a big favor. I find it hard to believe that the next Russian president won’t be a hard liner resorting to harsh countermeasures with highly unpredictable escalatory results.

Posted by: xor | Oct 17 2025 18:33 utc | 89

 

Republic of Scotland | Oct 17, 2025 18:23 UTC | 86 Putin can’t give in. He and others have repeated the basic demands too often: denazification, no NATO, demilitarization. These are all points on which Western Europe, for its part, won’t give in. Trump would have to promise not to supply any intelligence, weapons, or money to Great Britain and continental Europe. But who could believe Trump after he has lied so often and given the pressure he is under both from himself and from the West? So Trump is only interested in cosmetics, self-promotion in the Western press, and profit. Everything else depends on Russian actions, meaning at least another two years of war. Or bombs on continental Europe and Great Britain (don’t forget those!). In Russia, voices demanding a tough response are growing louder.

Posted by: smartfox | Oct 17 2025 18:34 utc | 90

LoveDonbass (85).
 
It still doesn’t negate the possibility of a Tomahawk being used and fired that has a nuclear warhead attached – and intel isn’t always precise – Trump giving Tomahawks to the Neo-Nazi dictatorship just adds another layer of danger to the possibilities of the war spreading outside Ukraine’s borders.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Oct 17 2025 18:34 utc | 91

@ 86 Trubind1
I have wanted to believe that Putin is the wise leader who will guide Russia through this. But his legal mind, his belief in law and order, is looking obsolete in the American world of ‘what ever it takes’.
On the other hand, Trump is the perfect front man in this world of American chaos.
I’m happy to be wrong about Putin. That his patience has a limit, which once reached, will see Putin directly confront the US military.
My fear is that Putin will NEVER confront the US military.  The BRICs will fall, one at a time, while Putin continues to talk, to shake hands, to make phone calls.

Posted by: EoinW | Oct 17 2025 18:35 utc | 92

I just want to point out that it is very difficult to reverse engineer a weapon, say like an Oreshnick, if you don’t get enough thrown at you (or your proxies) to leave a few remnants to study. And even then, it might not be possible.
 

Posted by: Nooneuknow | Oct 17 2025 18:37 utc | 93

My fear is that Putin will NEVER confront the US military.  The BRICs will fall, one at a time, while Putin continues to talk, to shake hands, to make phone calls.
Posted by: EoinW | Oct 17 2025 18:35 utc | 91

How exactly will the BRICS fall? Is America going to suddenly find her testicles and attack China? I fucking doubt it. All these peacocks just want to get paid, they shit their pants at the prospect of war with Russia or China. Rightfully, I might add, because theyre more conversant with American capabilities or the lack thereof than most of the bar.
 
The reality, hard as it is for some to swallow, is America is in the process of defeating herself. I cant see how any serious military analyst can look at the recent US actions in Venezeula, with Pakistan and Afghanistan, with Yemen as anything but weakness. Its the economy, stupid. America simply cannot afford its enormous parasitic class and they have all the power so reform is impossible. Its dipshits all the way down.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 17 2025 18:39 utc | 94

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 17 2025 15:59 utc | 19 Freezing the war is not making peace.  And threatening to send  potentially nuclear armed missiles is an escalation. And lastly, to cover all bases, Trump didn’t need to threaten Putin to bring him back to the table, he only needs to do some preliminary assurances there would be real negotiations, i.e., talks that would involve concessions on the fundamental issues. 

Posted by: steven t johnson | Oct 17 2025 18:41 utc | 95

 smartfox (89).
 
Not only that – Russians have nowhere to go – its right on their doorstep – if Putin allows these missiles to be used against Russian targets, in which they need US hardware/software and US military personnel to help launch them – then he’ll be conceding on that point – and Trump will push even harder, whilst US military personnel  help the Neo-Nazi’s fore Tomahawk missiles into Russia

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Oct 17 2025 18:41 utc | 96

Cmon , dont you guys have map in front of you?Why Putin have to fly over Austria or Turkey?
Obvious flight pat is from Russia and Black Sea, then over Bulgaria and Serbia, plane have to follow innitial pat of South stream natural gas pipeline.

Posted by: End this asap | Oct 17 2025 18:42 utc | 97

“How does Putin (or the rest of the delegation) get to Budapest?”, you ask.
Only Russian planes are banned, so Orban or the Chinese can loan them one. Fly into Europe from Turkey like the rest of the Russians do.
 
 

Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Oct 17 2025 18:46 utc | 98

“How does Putin (or the rest of the delegation) get to Budapest?”, you ask.
Only Russian planes are banned, so Orban or the Chinese can loan them one. Fly into Europe from Turkey like the rest of the Russians do.
 
 

Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Oct 17 2025 18:46 utc | 99

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 17 2025 18:21 utc | 85
That is bullshit…If a rocket with a nuclear warhead is fired lets say from Sumy, you will not have the time to detect anything…No Sint or hint or whatever…

Posted by: Brigitte Mohnhaupt | Oct 17 2025 18:52 utc | 100