Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 3, 2025
Ukraine’s Best Security Guarantee Is Finlandization

Fruitless discussions about 'security guarantees' for Ukraine continue. It will still take time until it is acknowledged that there is no way to implement them. Meanwhile other ideas are cropping in.

Some dimwits in Europe still think that they will be able to prevent Russia from taking care of its security interests:

On Thursday, French President Emmanuel Macron and British Prime Minister Keir Starmer will co-host a meeting of the “coalition of the willing” comprised mostly of European allies. The discussions are expected to involve what potential security guarantees for Ukraine could look like and what type of peacekeeping force might be required.

The idea is to establish a setup that would prevent Russia from relaunching attacks on Ukrainian territory if a peace deal or cease-fire is established between the two countries.

President Donald Trump has signaled that the United States could play some kind of role in the effort, although he has ruled out putting American forces in Ukraine. [NATO Secretary-General Mark] Rutte on Wednesday also said the expectation was that the U.S would be involved in some form.

There will be no ceasefire in Ukraine. There will be a peace agreement in the form of a treaty. Ukraine and Russia sides will have to agree to its parameters. The Russian site will insist that Ukraine will be demilitarized and that no foreign forces will be stationed on its land.

European countries are unable to give any real 'security guarantees'. What they could provide is a minuscule force of a few thousand men stationed somewhere in Ukraine. Such a force would be eradicated within minutes should, after a peace agreement, the conflict in Ukraine reignite.

The Ukrainian regime has come to understand that. It has moved away from requesting 'security guarantees' in form of foreign soldiers. It instead wants a huge amount of foreign money to buy and make new weapons.

As the New York Times wrote yesterday:

Ukraine Pursues a Weapons Buildup More Potent Than Any Security Guarantee (archived) – New York Times
Kyiv sees a well-equipped army as a stronger deterrent to Moscow than any Western pledges to defend it. It is working to attract billions to buy more arms.

Kyiv wants not only to sustain its army through the current war but also to make it the backbone of any postwar settlement, with the goal of deterring Russia from invading again. As Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, recently put it: “Ukraine must become a steel porcupine, undigestible for potential invaders.”

At the center of these efforts is a new NATO-backed procurement system that will channel European funds into buying U.S. weapons for Ukraine. President Volodymyr Zelensky hopes the system will enable $1 billion in purchases each month, with a particular focus on acquiring U.S.-made Patriot air-defense systems to expand Kyiv’s limited arsenal.

Ukraine is focused on developing its own security guarantees that its much larger neighbor cannot undermine. Kyiv’s domestic weapon production and its acquisition of Western arms are areas where Moscow has little leverage.

“This is not something the Russians can really discuss,” said Alyona Getmanchuk, Ukraine’s new ambassador to NATO. “That’s our advantage.”

Ukraine does not only want to receive lots of weapons, paid for by Europe, but also wants to build a weapon industry with financing also coming from foreign sources:

[Maksym Skrypchenko, the president of the Transatlantic Dialogue Center, a research group in Kyiv,] said Ukraine was working to channel Western money not only into buying foreign weapons but also into its own defense industry, which has grown rapidly during the war but still lacks the funding needed to produce at scale.

That could allow Ukraine to produce the very missiles Western partners have been reluctant to supply — or have delivered under strict usage limits — for fear of escalation. The United States, Britain and France have provided small batches of ballistic and cruise missiles, but their use is restricted so that they cannot be used to strike major Russian cities like Moscow. Germany has long refused to transfer its long-range Taurus cruise missiles.

Fire Point, the Ukrainian defense firm behind the Flamingo missile, said it would welcome Western funding to speed up production. The company says it currently makes one missile per day, but plans to increase output sevenfold by this fall. Ukraine has also developed a short-range ballistic missile named Sapsan that recently entered production.

That this is a serious attempt by Ukraine to move the 'security guarantee' discussion towards a record financial transaction to Kiev is underlined by an op-ed by its former Foreign Minister  Dmytro Kulebain the Washington Post:

Ukraine doesn’t need a security guarantee (archived) – Dmytro Kuleba / Washington Post
Western boots on the ground won’t secure peace. Arming Ukraine and politically integrating it will.

[S]tationing foreign troops far behind the lines as “reassurance forces” (the option most often floated as an alternative to more robust peacekeeping) would also have limited effect. The Ukrainian people would almost certainly welcome such deployments. But reassurance forces would neither hasten the war’s end nor prevent hostilities from reigniting after any ceasefire. Moscow, meanwhile, has already rejected the idea, claiming it would be a pretense for putting a NATO presence on Ukrainian soil.

Instead of debating such dead ends, Ukraine’s partners should immediately move to provide a robust assistance package, coupled with firm commitments to Ukraine’s political integration in the West. Weapons need to be provided at an even larger scale — to be mass-produced in Western countries as well as in Western-financed factories inside Ukraine. Ensuring uninterrupted supply on a strict timeline is vital. The buildup of a European military-industrial complex needs to take place alongside Ukraine’s admission to the European Union as a full member on an accelerated (though still merit-based) schedule.

The attempt to get 'security guarantees' in the form of money for weapons and weapon fabrications is just as doomed as the idea of putting western troops on the ground.

From the NYT piece quoted above:

Europe has already outpaced the United States in military aid, providing roughly $95 billion to Washington’s $75 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy.

Ukraine has already received weapons at a value of $170 billion. How much did they deter the Russian from fighting?

The Europeans have difficulties to grow their economies while facing higher interest rates and aging societies. It is ludicrous to expect that they will indefinitely continue to finance weapons for Ukraine.

The idea of building western-financed weapon factories in Ukraine can already be seen as a failure.

The NYT piece asserts:

Kyiv’s domestic weapon production and its acquisition of Western arms are areas where Moscow has little leverage. 

“This is not something the Russians can really discuss,” said Alyona Getmanchuk, Ukraine’s new ambassador to NATO. “That’s our advantage.” 

The Russia Armed Forces disagree with that statement.

Germany allegedly provided the money and technology to develop the short-range ballistic missile named Sapsan which was to be produced in Ukraine.

By August 11 the Russia forces had ended that endeavor:

Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) claimed Thursday that it crippled Ukraine’s ability to launch strikes deep inside Russia after it carried out a special operation along with the Defense Ministry against Ukrainian missile production facilities.

The FSB said it had discovered the locations of buildings and air defense systems involved in the production and protection of Ukraine’s Sapsan ballistic missile system, also known by its export designation Hrim-2, in the Sumy and Dnipropetrovsk regions.

Russia’s Defense Ministry said […] the strikes were conducted throughout July, targeting Ukrainian design bureaus, rocket fuel production facilities and missile assembly plants in the Dnipropetrovsk and Sumy regions.

The Russian military also said it destroyed four launchers of the Western-supplied Patriot surface-to-air missile system and a U.S.-made target detection and guidance radar in the Dnipropetrovsk region alone.

The FSB claimed that Ukraine had developed the Sapsan/Hrim-2 with financial support from “specialists” of an unidentified Western European country.

Ukrainian media previously reported that the Sapsan missile completed combat testing in May after successfully striking a Russian military target at a range of almost 300 kilometers (186 miles).

Another deep strike hit the factory of a U.S. manufacturer of electronic circuit boards, Flex-tronic, in western Ukraine. Circuit boards are needed for Ukraine's mass drone production. Six hundred employees, working the night shift to allegedly 'build coffee makers', had fled into the companies bunkers when several cruise missiles arrived. It took several days to expunge the fire.

A Turkish company had built and equipped a factory to make Bayraktar drones in Ukraine. The factory was supposed to open at the end of August. Days before the official opening Russian missiles arrived:

The factory where Turkish Bayraktar drones are assembled continues to burn near Kiev. The day before, several Russian missiles hit the workshops. The building was seriously damaged. The production process was disrupted.

The video of the fire is published today, August 29, by Channel Five.

Together those were at least three large strikes in just one month against western-financed weapon production sites in Ukraine. Any future weapon factory build with western finance in Ukraine will receive a similar treatment.

Such facilities are just too big and obvious to operate in total secret. The Russian security service will find them and mark them for destruction as soon as the most expensive machinery for them has been installed and is ready to go.

'Security guarantees' in form of western troops on the ground are just not going to happen.

'Security guarantees' in form of weapon deliveries or weapon production within Ukraine are not sustainable.

The only real 'security guarantee' Ukraine can get is through a piece agreement with Russia. This will require Ukraine  to give up on land, to commit to neutrality and to behave well.

President Alexander Stubb of Finland argues in the Economist that Ukraine should follow his country's (previous) model:

What Finland could teach Ukraine about war and peace (archived) – Economist
President Alexander Stubb argues Ukraine can repeat Finland’s success

Finland’s experience has been cited from the start of the war in Ukraine—both as a model to avoid and one perhaps to follow. Mannerheim’s speech was circulated in President Volodymyr Zelensky’s office in the first months of the war, but was put to one side.

The peace that was imposed on Finland in 1944 was hardly just. But it could have been worse. Finland handed over 10% of its territory, including Karelia and half of Lake Ladoga. Its army was restricted, as was its ability to join NATO. It was forced to let Russia lease a naval base on Porkkala, a peninsula in the Gulf of Finland just 30km from the capital. And, because it had joined forces with Hitler, it was forced to pay reparations to the Soviet Union which had attacked it five years earlier.

To much of the world, this was a defeat. To Mr Stubb, whose father was born in the territory annexed by the Soviet Union, and whose summer house stands in Porkkala, back in Finnish hands since the 1950s, it looks different.

The simple secret of living peacefully next to a mighty neighbor, Finland had found, was to behave well:

Lacking any security guarantees from the West or anyone else, Finland exercised this independence not by turning anti-Russian—which would almost certainly have resulted in another invasion—but by building one of the most successful countries in Europe. “People didn’t wait for perfect conditions. They worked with what they had,” Risto Penttilä, a foreign-policy expert, explains.

In politics and in the media Finland carefully avoided anything that could anger Moscow. To most outsiders, what became known as “Finlandisation” was a servile form of appeasement. To Mr Stubb and most of his countrymen, “it was the definition of realpolitik at a time when we did not have a choice.” It allowed Finland to stick to its core values: universal education, social welfare and the rule of law.

The 'Finlandization' of Ukraine, if done seriously, would satisfy major Russian demands – neutrality, demilitarization and denazification. It is a realistic base for successful peace talks.

I am encourage that the Economist, as a major mainstream outlet, has picked up on this.

For the idea to ripen it will have to wait until the powers-that-be have recognized that all other variants of 'security guarantees', be they troops on the ground or weapon-fabrications, are rather pipe-dreams than serious plans.

Comments

what kind of security arrangements does canada have with the usa?? if we weren’t friends with the usa, all the security arrangements would be meaningless… the best security arrangement for ukraine at this point would be to be on friendly terms with russia… the best security arrangement for russia would be for europe to be on good terms with russia…
but we see that this doesn’t serve the special interests of the warmongers, military corporations, military planners and etc. etc.. if russia is not allowed to have any security, why does europe think it is entitled to any??
there is a direct relationship between one countries security needs and the others… i don’t expect politicians who are interested in graft to acknowledge this, but i am pretty sure ordinary people in all of these countries understand this… and they would like to stop the murder, mayhem and destruction too…
until all these countries get real on all of this, we will continue to be led by self serving corporations and politicians serving corporations that don’t give a rats ass about their own people..
thanks b for the details and present presentation on the world stage here..

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 15:20 utc | 1

The simple secret of living peacefully next to a mighty neighbor, Finland had found, was to behave well:

On April 4th 2023 it forgot by joining NATO.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Sep 3 2025 15:25 utc | 2

Great idea. Build up a huge well armed Ukrainian military which can then turn around and attack its real enemies in the west. That would be some laugh.

Posted by: Ogre | Sep 3 2025 15:28 utc | 3

Finland could have been a very good example – exept by now it is not, it’s expired. Best by over at least for a year.
It choose the way of the Baltic States. Little use for Russia, then, I think.

Posted by: js | Sep 3 2025 15:29 utc | 4

instead of what i suggest @ 1, we get this…
Europe escalates anti-Russia hostility
Key Markets report for Wednesday, 3 September 2025
Alex Krainer

@ Tom_12 | Sep 3 2025 15:25 utc | 2
exactly… but the new leader knows it is best to side up with usa led nato for more death and destruction, as opposed to ‘getting on well’ with your neighbour..

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 15:30 utc | 5

War for the West is an opportunity to both make money and stay in power. For the Euro oligarchs exaggerating a “threat” from Russia serves those purposes mainly the latter and they are working hard on the former. Ukraine (i.e., the oligarchs than run it) wants money from the Empire to feather their nests as they lead the sheep/lemmings to slaughter in the ongoing war. Their economy, increasingly, is war.
The USA has shown the path for all to follow–more war, more centralized authority and opportunities to make big unaccountable money. The US oligarchy didn’t and doesn’t care about “winning” war just fighting it works. Propagandizing the public is easy in the US because the propaganda has flowed so thickly since WWII that propaganda has morphed into conscious and unconscious assumptions about the world that are almost totally wrong. Europeans are experiencing the same thing. Western assumptions in are toxic not only to the world as a whole but to Western societies. The situation in Gaza proves the moral degeneracy of the West in spite of the fact it believes itself morally superior to the rest of the world as it consistently does precisely the opposite of what it claims to do.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Sep 3 2025 15:32 utc | 6

Posted by: Tom_12 | Sep 3 2025 15:25 utc | 2
On April 4th 2023 it forgot by joining NATO.

And they’re paying for it, in the true sense of the word.
Of course, in reality it’s more subtle: the average Finnish Mika or Maija pays more and sees their state getting more dysfunctional. A few selected Finns, however, the Stubbs and Marins among them, are better off.
I’d like to know if Finns feel they’re safer now than before NATO. Pekka, where are you? 🙂

Posted by: Konami | Sep 3 2025 15:33 utc | 7

Thank you, b. I could hope for your words about neutrality to be heard not only by Ukraine but elsewhere around the world, far and wide. Perhaps what is still happening in Ukraine and in Gaze can stand as what not to wish for, as any country strives to maintain its independence and what is best for the people and its own governmental longevity.
As you say, the best security guarantee! Butter is better!!

Posted by: juliania | Sep 3 2025 15:34 utc | 8

A bad peace is better than a good war
Observed a very wise man.

Posted by: Exile | Sep 3 2025 15:36 utc | 9

Sorry, instead of ‘Gaze’ let’s say “Palestine”.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 3 2025 15:36 utc | 10

Didn’t Finland toss that postwar ‘history’ to join NATO confrontation with ‘the bear’?
What’s the lesson there, for Russia?

Posted by: Kevin Quinn | Sep 3 2025 15:48 utc | 11

another great article.

Posted by: annie | Sep 3 2025 15:53 utc | 12

Dmitri Orlov is funny yet serious; he proposed that the endless repetition of “ceasefire” become a drinking game and has now modified that to include security guarantees, which I also deem appropriate.
As we know, one SMO goal is the demilitarization of Ukraine, which would include any formation of a military industrial complex. As for neutrality, we just saw Finland break its treaty with Russia when it joined NATO, which was very foolish of Stubb, but is in-line with his character. That whatever remains of Ukraine will be neutral is already a done deal as the peace settlement will certainly include that must. IMO, it’s too early to predict what the future dimensions of Ukraine will look like. There appears to be a majority within the Duma demanding Odessa and some other oblasts be directly incorporated via the battlefield or allowed the opportunity via Plebiscite to join Russia. There remains the Denazification goal which is why we still see attritional war being the main Russian strategy–Ukraine is forced to send its Nazi forces and mercenary barrier units into action which allows them to be eliminated more easily than if they continue hiding in the deep rear.
What will become the next drinking game word seems the appropriate question for the bar?

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2025 15:58 utc | 13

The best security guarantee for Ukraine is annihilation.
All that was Western, neoliberal, LGBTQ, Banderist, and NATO needs to be purged by fire.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 3 2025 16:00 utc | 14

London, Paris, Berlin – these are cities without security. And they will give Kiev security guarantees?

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 3 2025 16:02 utc | 15

“A bad peace is better than a good war
Observed a very wise man.”
Posted by: Exile | Sep 3 2025 15:36 utc | 9
I totally disagree.
The Peace of Versailles was a very bad peace (see Keynes “The Carthaginian Peace) and set up the worst war4 in history.
The man that penned the phrase is a total moron.

Posted by: canuk | Sep 3 2025 16:02 utc | 16

Wasn’t there some kind of discussion or at least comments by some US imperialists with a brain, who called for Findlanization of 404 way back in ~2014? Not out of some bleeding heart for fellow humans but out of realizing the shitshow it would drag US into.

Posted by: boneless | Sep 3 2025 16:08 utc | 17

^ out of realizing the shitshow pushing NATO into 404 would drag US into.*

Posted by: boneless | Sep 3 2025 16:09 utc | 18

Ukrainians are not Koreans. Ukrainians are incapable of developing an arms production industry that can supply enough of the types of weapons to wage war with Russia. Ukraine society is too corrupt, too primitive, too hot tempered to mobilize the productive means necessary to wage an existential conflict with Russia. Finlandization, maintaining neutrality as a security guarantee to Russia is the only way for Ukraine to achieve peace and independence. Finlandization was always available to Ukrainians for developing an independent culture. The Galician hot heads want victory or death. The only type of society they can achieve.

Posted by: Keme | Sep 3 2025 16:18 utc | 19

Russia & Ukraine ‘In Direct Contact’ – Lavrov
https://www.rt.com/russia/624026-russia-ukraine-direct-contact-lavrov/
“In an interview with the Indonesian newspaper Kompas, released on Wednesday, Lavrov confirmed that Moscow’s top priority remains settling the crisis via peaceful means, adding that it is taking concrete stops to achieve that goal.
Lavrov recalled that Moscow initiated the resumption of direct Russia-Ukraine talks this spring, resulting in three rounds of direct negotiations in Istanbul, Turkiye. He noted that the two sides reached ‘concrete progress.’
Any settlement of the conflict must eliminate its root causes and address Moscow’s security concerns, the foreign minister has said….”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 3 2025 16:19 utc | 20

Versailles was a very comprehensive geopolitial chaos that the world is paying for in various ways today, including Ukraine.
Having said that, it was still better for the average grunt in the trenches forced to fight&die for their bankers and politicians.

Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Sep 3 2025 16:21 utc | 21

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 15:20 utc | 1
Finlandization allowed Finland to exist right on the Soviet union’s doorstep unscathed, unlike the rest of Eastern Europe.
Why the elites of Finland chose to trash that is as baffling as thr Swiss gearing for war with Russia
As for canada, there’s literally no threat to the country other than the United States. The vassal agreements with the USA are one way decrees. Still wasting money on arctic submarines, satellites and NATO as we flush more money down the zelensky toilet and trump tries to consolidate the continent.

Posted by: Meh | Sep 3 2025 16:23 utc | 22

Yes, Finlandization might be a solution that also corresponds to Russian ideas. A form of neutrality. In other words, something that is unthinkable for the current leaders of the EU. It boils down to the fact that only after elections, when (hopefully) the current warmongers are no longer in power, can a practical and realistic solution emerge.

Posted by: smartfox | Sep 3 2025 16:23 utc | 23

Given that “democratic” Finland joined NATO (without the Finish citizens having any say in that), it’s safe to assume “Finlandization” is off the table for Ukraine.

Posted by: xor | Sep 3 2025 16:32 utc | 24

I wonder is Stubb realizes what a grotesque blunder Finland made when silly Sanna Marin made it join NATO.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 3 2025 16:34 utc | 25

John Gilberts | Sep 3 2025 16:19 utc | 20–
That interview covered a wide range of topics. As noted, root causes means NATO nation OSCE Treaty violations and arranging a system where that will no longer occur; realistically, that means NATO’s dissolution. IMO, the SMO won’t be concluded until the overall root cause peace settlement occurs, and that could take years to finalize.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2025 16:37 utc | 26

Allowing billions to flow into Ukraine for weapons is a great way to keep the Washington-London-Kiev money game afloat. But what the Elites want is another war in Europe so they can clean their own houses.

Posted by: Elial22 | Sep 3 2025 16:45 utc | 27

“Ukraine Pursues a Weapons Build-Up More Potent Than Any Security Guarantees,” is the nytimes above-the-fold headline on 2 September.
The sub-headline: Kiev “sees a well-equipped army as a stronger deterrent to Moscow than Western pledges to defend it. It is working to attract billions to buy more arms.”
The MIC and its minions in the legacy media are bullish on arming/financing Ukraine until the end of time.
Even if only a tiny smidgeon of Ukraine remains—like a thin slice near Lvov, a half Oblast, say—the MIC will find a way to station HIMARS launchers firing ATACMS. All of this little slice of Ukraine will bristle w/ Patriot interceptors.
Per Zakharova: “Any guarantees must take into account the security interests of Russia.” She further elaborated: “Providing security guarantees is not a condition but a result of a peaceful settlement based on eliminating the root causes of the conflict, which will in turn guarantees the security of our country.”
And oh by the way—-even if VVP is actually a bad dude, that does not invalidate the fact that Russia, the country, has existential security interests @ stake in this conflict.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Sep 3 2025 16:48 utc | 28

US manufacturer of circuit boards…. all the components, IC, FPGA etc come from: PRC, Taiwan, PI, etc.
Ukraine may assemble missiles but 98% of the GOZINTAs are made elsewhere.
What do they think “demilitarization “ means, not profit for US MIC?

Posted by: paddy | Sep 3 2025 16:51 utc | 29

here are more Ukrainians in Canada than in any other country excepting Ukraine of course.91)
So every Canadian politician needs to cater to this fact politically.
1. Approximately 1.3 to 1.4 million people of Ukrainian descent live in Canada, representing one of the largest Ukrainian diaspora communities in the world. This includes people with full or partial Ukrainian ethnic origins.

Posted by: canuk | Sep 3 2025 16:55 utc | 30

There are four behemoth nations in the world representing most of its population and resources and military powers: Russia, USA, China, India … Brazil has the potential to join them if it gets its act together. This should be the real UNSC.
The rest of the world, especially these nations’ neighbors, need to figure out how to live alongside and prosper with them. It IS possible to become a “steel porcupine” and more trouble than it’s worth to conquer; but it has to be based on the nations own people and resources a la Switzerland, not with handouts. There’s no security in begging.
Even if you become a porcupine, you will still get destroyed if one of the big five next door really really needs it due to absolute security needs as in the current Ukraine situation. So the best choice is indeed finding a modus vivendi that is a win-win and build trust over time.

Posted by: Caliman | Sep 3 2025 16:55 utc | 31

As Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, recently put it: “Ukraine must become a steel porcupine, undigestible for potential invaders.”
Has somebody been reading MOA?

Posted by: frithguild | Sep 3 2025 16:57 utc | 32

And how did Finlandization end up working out. Now they are nato and belligerent.

Posted by: Feck | Sep 3 2025 17:04 utc | 33

@ Meh | Sep 3 2025 16:23 utc | 22
agreed… and another big difference is here in canada we haven’t had russia or china setting up war games and plans right next to the usa, which is what the usa and europe have done in ukraine… this big distinction really tells the tale..
@ canuk | Sep 3 2025 16:55 utc | 30
while that is true, why does this have to mean ongoing hostility towards russia?? that is the part that makes no sense, unless we want to continue to support nazis in the canuck parliament like we did with hunka..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka_scandal
the question is – are canucks really that stupid?? and the answer of course is – yes!

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 17:06 utc | 34

The problem is “finlandization” did not hold up forever.
Finland of today is in the forefront of anti-Russian fever in Europe.
And the lesson Russia will likely draw from this, is that you cannot trust self interest, or even sanity, as primary operating principals in nations on its borders.
Finland was used as a route to invade Russia and lay seige to St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) in WW2 resulting in hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilian deaths.
Now that Germany is talking the big talk about rearming, it seems to me that the Russian General Staff must be considering similar scenarios with respect to Moscow, Sevastopol, Voronezh, Rostov on Don, Krasnodar and Volgograd. The latter 4 are “milloniki” – major Russian cities with 1 million or more inhabitants.
Then there is Kherson, Zaporozhie, and any other ex-Ukrainian cities that become Russian (Kharkiv? Sumy? Odessa? Dnipropetrovsk?, more?)

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 3 2025 17:08 utc | 35

Posted by: Feck | Sep 3 2025 17:04 utc | 33
Agree !
Anyway what will be left of 404 will look more like a mix between Kosovo, Albania and Libya …
Banderistan can’t be neutral anyway, it better be neutered.

Posted by: Savonarole | Sep 3 2025 17:11 utc | 36

Finland’s (and Sweden’s) leadership class has been Atlanticized and its population propagandized; but I don’t think they are lost causes. The salutary lesson of Ukraine’s eventual collapse and destitution cannot help but act as a corrective to the propaganda of putting national trust in nato and military as opposed to active peace. Besides, large military expenditures obviously to the benefit of American MI corps may eventually wear thin as social services collapse …

Posted by: Caliman | Sep 3 2025 17:22 utc | 37

The simple secret of living peacefully next to a mighty neighbor, Finland had found, was to behave well:
On April 4th 2023 it forgot by joining NATO.
Posted by: Tom_12 | Sep 3 2025 15:25 utc | 2
Shouldn’t have elected the party girl who conveniently departed the stage soon after either.

Posted by: jpc | Sep 3 2025 17:25 utc | 38

Israel’s hell-for-leather genocide in Gaza has inured the world to a type of war that is light on tactics and heavy on crimes against humanity. Standing in solidarity w/ Israel, the U.S. has en-siphoned this mentality, imbibing it deeply.
Endowed w/ Too Big To Criticize license, like Israel, the U.S. can prosecute war as it wishes. It simply has rarely deployed that license in an unabashedly easy-to-notice public way.
The U.S. has often conducted its zero-sum-games far from the scrutinizing gaze, w/ enough plausible deniability and fog of war false flags to inveigle those who managed to catch a glimpse of the reality.
Chary of fighting Russia directly, however, the U.S. has trapped itself in a posture of not being able to take the gloves off w/ Project Ukraine because the U.S. is fig-leafing its war-faring stance *behind* its proxy. No belligerent w/ a zero-sum appetite can sate itself like that.
Enabling Ukraine to launch missiles against civilian targets in Saint Petersburg and Moscow can’t change the LOC realities but it can torque Russian pain beyond what troops on a battlefield near Petrovsk suffer—-and situate that pain locally, within the domestic population. Shock & awe tableau of neighborhoods in Russia’s most sophisticated cities in flames will prove priceless instances of photo opportunities & PR.
It’s hideous to realize that the U.S. will opt for such, baiting a nuclear superpower, but these are the straits in which we find matters.
A gratuitous aside:
After 7 October, Israel demonstrated how explicitly the calculus of war-faring mentality has shifted, opting not just for measured strategies & rational battlefield tactics against Hamas but an unvarnished zero-sum style of indiscriminate destruction that respected neither non-combatants nor civilians and featured genocide and decapitation strikes against the adversary’s leadership as first weapons of choice.
During this time, both Collective Biden and then DJT, once he claimed the White House, exhibited, if not pledged, “unwavering” support for Israel’s efforts: where Israel led, the U.S. would follow w/ unlimited advanced weaponry: there was no end in sight.
Russia’s manner of prosecuting its SMO in Ukraine appeared gentlemanly in comparison, though I don’t want to minimize the horror of war wherever it occurs. There’s no way to downplay the human tragedy.
It’s just that Israel’s militaristic brio since 7 October, on display in Gaza, Lebanon, Yemen and Iran, possessed such an unbridled off-the-charts savagery that it was difficult to categorize it in the annals of recognizable 21st Century warfare.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Sep 3 2025 17:25 utc | 39

Posted by: frithguild | Sep 3 2025 16:57 utc | 32
RE: urSSula’s focus on the steel porcupine indicates she has been reading MoA
<< …snickering…

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Sep 3 2025 17:30 utc | 40

That this is a serious attempt by Ukraine to move the ‘security guarantee’ discussion towards a record financial transaction to Kiev is underlined by an op-ed by its former Foreign Minister Dmytro Kulebain the Washington Post
Ukraine best milkers of western cash cow. Sadly they destroyed millions of lives for it. More revenge killing of those responsible by grieving family coming.

Posted by: Michael J | Sep 3 2025 17:38 utc | 41

the question is – are canucks really that stupid?? and the answer of course is – yes!
Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 17:06 utc | 34
I am living in that “Canuck”istan land. I refuse to call myself Canadian. Those humans fortunate enough to have been born here are not “that stupid”, however our MSM lies, misleads and manipulates to such a degree, “Canucks” are that ignorant of knowledge.
C.B.C to be polite, Constant Bull Crap. Contrived Bull Crap. Corrupt Bull Crap. Conniving Bull Crap. Condescending Bull Crap.
I’m not Joe and don’t call me Canadian! I’m simply disgusted.

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Sep 3 2025 17:42 utc | 42

The best way for the Europeons to guarantee the Ukraine’s security is to guarantee Russia’s security. I think that is what Putin means by “indivisible security”. That seems fairly straight forward to me, so I don’t quite understand why the Europeons are having so much difficulty with the concept.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 3 2025 17:47 utc | 43

Much of the valuable mineral and agricultural resources are in the East, and will ultimately be recognized by the Blob as Russian, or no deal.
Thus, Russia wouldn’t have a strong economic incentive to strike rump ukie. So Russia would consider an armed rump ukie as a threat, rightly so. Such a proposal is a non-starter.
The Blob is still working through their stages of grief, and their puppets are scrambling to retain their stations. All expected.

Posted by: seer | Sep 3 2025 17:54 utc | 44

Its not OT, the reason we are all engaged in this is sung about over generations. Finland suffers from the same. When this song hit the ground featured by CBC the wheels of termination were raging, she was even told she wasn’t Indian, and Canada removed her awards. Yes, The War Racket runs everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=0PHhi-oilok&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fgs_ssp%3DeJzj4tVP1zc0TDOqyMkyySk0YPTiK8lIVShPLFIoSkzOTi0BAJbHCgQ%26q%3Dthe%2Bwar%2Bracket%26oq%3Dthe%2Bwar%2Bracket%26&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Sep 3 2025 17:58 utc | 45

Here’s your steel porcupine

Posted by: Ed Bernays | Sep 3 2025 18:01 utc | 46

Ukraine, Europe, and US all want the war to continue, but for different reasons and different mechanisms.
Ukraine wants to maintain the status quo: supporters should keep sending money and weapons so that Z & his oligarchs can keep siphoning off money from supporters and from Ukraine’s sale of various products (agricultural, minerals, gas). There is no time to wait until supporters build weapons factories, nor does this make Z & oligarchs any richer. Besides, Z can’t feed the meat grinder and staff the factories at the same time.
Europe wants the war to continue because there’s so many goodies in Ukraine they’re desperate for: gas, minerals, agricultural products. But more importantly, Europe wants the war to remain in Ukraine – you know, keep the war in the “jungle”, don’t bring it into the “garden”. Plus, the Ukrainians are just so happy to die for the benefit of the “garden”, why not make them happy by letting them jump into the meat grinder. Europe just really wants to see happy Ukrainians doing what they do best. So, building weapons factories in Ukraine is such a win-win combination. Ukrainians get to die happily, and Europeans get all its goodies, plus, it keeps the war in the “jungle”.
USA is just a schizo:
“No tanks for ukraine” – here are some tanks.
“No jets for Ukraine” – here are some jets.
“No long range rockets for Ukraine” – here are some rockets.
“No american soldiers in Ukraine” – must I state the obvious?
“I’ll make peace in 1 day” – is that a Venutian day?
“I love Russia” – more sanctions all around
Like Europe, USA wants Ukraine’s goodies. Unlike Europe, USA wants to surround Russia with nuclear rockets… and China… and the Middle East…. and South America… and…everything else. USA is like those seagulls from the cartoon movie: “mine… mine… mine… mine…” (Finding Nemo)
In fact, Europe and USA are fighting each other to be first to occupy Ukraine. Which means that “Security Guarantees” is just a PC word for colonial subjugation.

Posted by: Spiridon | Sep 3 2025 18:05 utc | 47

The best way for the Europeans to guarantee the Ukraine’s security is to guarantee Russia’s security. I think that is what Putin means by “indivisible security”. That seems fairly straight forward to me, so I don’t quite understand why the Europeans are having so much difficulty with the concept.
Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 3 2025 17:47 utc | 43

The Euros do not accept that the Russian Federation can have any legitimate security concerns. It is a mix of straight out Russophobic racism and a lot of double talk around the allegedly pure as driven snow intentions of NATO.
For quite a long time, e.g., the missiles/ anti-missile systems in Europe aimed at Russia were passed off as “anti-terrorist” installations, presumably aimed at Iran. The Euro-clods and their US sponsors have since abandoned that spurious claim.
No matter, another self-evident idiotic claim will take its place.
You have probably seen the very amusing images of the NATO bases surrounding the Russian Federation with the title, “Why is Russia so close to our military bases?” and so on. It reveals the duplicitous approach of the NATO regimes with some ironic humour.
Racism. And double talk. Therefore, the description of Western regimes as “agreement incapable” is perfectly exact. And this leads to the entirely understandable approach, out of necessity, for the Russian Federation to establish peace through “military-technical means”, as they made clear in the fall of 2011 for all of those with ears to hear.

Posted by: NH | Sep 3 2025 18:21 utc | 48

… dimwits in Europe … (b) – quite!
# Finland had some ‘agency’ with Finlandization …
… Ukrainian proxy has very limited ‘agency’ …

Posted by: Don Firineach | Sep 3 2025 18:21 utc | 49

The eurocucks are about to endure a long, cold winter, with continued economic decline to keep them warm. And having watched their former energy supplier Russia recently agree to supply China, they’ll have much to ponder.
Can a restoration of Nordstream be far off? Maybe not.

Posted by: seer | Sep 3 2025 18:33 utc | 50

Even if only a tiny smidgeon of Ukraine remains—like a thin slice near Lvov, a half Oblast, say—the MIC will find a way to station HIMARS launchers firing ATACMS.
Posted by: steel_porcupine | Sep 3 2025 16:48 utc | 28
Exactly. But unfortunately the little smo is the best they can do. No money, no army, no large support from the population and a lot of multiple citizenship politicians working for other goals is what smo is. They’re so poor they did not provide the one nbc general with a few volunteers and one armored car for protection. So they always dance to Nato music and then say “they tricked us”. I read Lavrov wants now the world to recognize the new borders. Good luck with that, not even Brics club wants to

Posted by: rk | Sep 3 2025 18:33 utc | 51

So, building weapons factories in Ukraine is such a win-win combination. Ukrainians get to die happily, and Europeans get all its goodies, plus, it keeps the war in the “jungle”.
Posted by: Spiridon | Sep 3 2025 18:05 utc | 47
Did people already forget the truth behind the “missile factory” blown up yesterday? Amazing. It’s just a project for grift.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Sep 3 2025 18:34 utc | 52

Shouldn’t have elected the party girl who conveniently departed the stage soon after either.
Posted by: jpc | Sep 3 2025 17:25 utc | 38
#####
All politicians, but certainly Western politicians, are selected, not elected. Even Orban.
The election is to get you (the serf) on board, thinking you had something to do with the selection, and if you don’t like the selection, now you are motivated to vote next time to get “someone better” that will still be selected for you.
It’s all a farce, but people have believed it is the only and best way to be.
Meanwhile, Xi is President for life. Putin is practically President for life. Both countries are leading the world, Russia after emerging from a collapse 30 years ago, and China after widespread starvation 50 years ago.
I’m not arguing against democracy; those flaws should be self-evident.
I am talking about the bars on the cage that people tell themselves are necessary and working for them.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 3 2025 18:43 utc | 53

.. dimwits in Europe … (b) – quite!
# Finland had some ‘agency’ with Finlandization …
… Ukrainian proxy has very limited ‘agency’ …
Posted by: Don Firineach | Sep 3 2025 18:21 utc | 49
100% right on!

Posted by: canuk | Sep 3 2025 18:49 utc | 54

Findandization, if it is done via a signed piece of paper, will not last. What treaty, signed in the past, has been strictly observed for more than a couple of generations? New generations of sociopathic geopolitical players want to start a fresh game.
Russia, who had been insisting on their own security guarantees in the face of NATO expansion, knows this better than anyone. There is only one security guarantee for anyone, the ability to hit first and hit back harder than the opponent can hit you.
Finlandization, or being so docile and polite that they do not want to hit you, can only work for so long.

Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Sep 3 2025 18:58 utc | 55

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 17:06 utc | 34
RE: the diaspora’s hostility toward Russia even after they’ve left Ukraine for Canada
<< After Canada's notable Ukrainian diaspora, as you James detail, the NYC borough of Brooklyn and Chicago's near-west neighborhoods possess a large population of residents of Ukrainian descent. Chicago's population out-competes Brooklyn's, interestingly enough. In fact an early district known as Ukrainian Village was an OG locale in Chicago for gathering in white ethnics immigrating from east European countries: Czechs, Poles, Hungarians, certainly Ukrainians. The Ukraine Embassy in Chicago very much endorses the "brutal unprovoked full-scale war of aggression" trademarked view of the conflict, as you can imagine. The embassy endorses fundraisers for the Azov Battalion within Chicagoland, many of which are centered in Ukrainian Orthodox parishes and Ukrainian community centers. There are comedy nights, concerts, fitness challenges, festivals---everything you would expect from a vibrant & engaged diaspora. The view of Ukraine we discuss here would be anathema in that crowd. A Russian-leaning/Russian-ethnic Ukrainian immigrant who prized the lore of Empress Catherine's visit to Odessa/Crimea, and her naming Sevastopol w/ Potemkin, would have to suppress those cherished elements of Ukrainian history. Anecdotally, after my first visit to Crimea (this was winter 2018) someone I bumped into at a coffee shop stateside asked what my trip was like. I shared how interesting it was to hear former Ukrainians living in now-Russian Federation Yalta speak about Ukraine's civil war. My snap assessment had been that Ukraine, the country, had never really found a way to meld its Ukrainian-identifying citizenry w/ its Russian-identifying one. I said, "Russian is not just a language but an ethnicity." The acquaintance in the coffee shop said, "That's not what Ukrainians here say." It struck me in an eye-blink how socially unwelcome it was to voice a perspective which "Ukrainians here" did not share. This was *before* the SMO of course. But Euromaidan had happened Crimea's *return* to Russia had happened. The false flag of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 had happened. And countless affronts: even Russia's repatriating the inventory of the Massandra Winery had caused Poroshenko to cry "Thievery-!" My point is that Ukrainians who populate the U.S.'s most expansive diasporas hold a view of their former country that would jibe absolutely w/ Zelensky's nightly TikTok video from Bankhova Street and would not be inclined to hold a rational discussion about aspects of Ukrainian history that supported anything to the contrary.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Sep 3 2025 19:06 utc | 56

The Finlandization, of a few other nations would do wonders for the citizens – focusing on the basics such as what you typed, universal education, social welfare and the rule of law, instead of looking to cause unrest division, wars and planning coups.
Ukraine will never be a peaceful nations towards its Russian neighbour – until the Neo-Nazi’s are removed, the West can’t be trusted, and the Neo-Nazi’s will just bide their time till they are strong again – and attack Russia and the Donbas, so for me Putin should finish the job at hand, with denazification in mind, and if needs be install a Russian friendly government in Ukraine.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 3 2025 19:08 utc | 57

As I allude to @26, the SMO’s final end will take years. It’s possible that might occur in a shorter time if something else is also done, “Global Governance Initiative=UN Charter 2.0”, although I don’t explicitly include the SMO.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2025 19:09 utc | 58

Da wird irgendwo ein Kickback-Mechanismus sein. Die ukrainische Führung zweigt möglicherweise einen Teil der Milliarden-Hilfsgelder in die eigenen Taschen ab, und gibt davon einen Teil an die westlichen Politiker zurück, die diese Hilfsgelder bewilligen.
Da diese Leute damit alle an der Fortsetzung des Krieges verdienen, sind sie natürlich gegen ein Ende des Krieges.
There will be a kickback mechanism somewhere. The Ukrainian leadership probably may divert some of the billions in aid into its own pockets and return some of it to the Western politicians who approve this aid.
Since these people all profit from the continuation of the war, they are naturally against an end to the war.

Posted by: Plexiglas | Sep 3 2025 19:16 utc | 59

Posted by: Plexiglas | Sep 3 2025 19:16 utc | 59
Da dieser Mechanismus aus der Biden-Zeit stammen dürfte, geht er zu Gunsten der Demokraten. Das ist der Grund dass Trump an einer Fortsetzung nicht interessiert ist.
Since this mechanism likely dates back to the Biden era, it favors the Democrats. This is why Trump isn’t interested in continuing it.

Posted by: Plexiglas | Sep 3 2025 19:19 utc | 60

Russia will take all of Ukraine and if the West continues with their games expect Russia to take the Baltics and remove NATO from Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova, and Poland. If that does not change things expect Russia to remove NATO from all of Europe.

Posted by: Thurl | Sep 3 2025 19:20 utc | 61

To #1, James: “What kind of security arrangements does canada have with the usa??”…James, I’m in USA. You’re secure because Canada’s sovereign is the UK monarchy. US political class loves monarchies, esp. UK monarchy. Trump made clear in his first term that, without evidence of Russian plots, he prioritizes wishes of UK monarchy (“We must respect their wishes”). At beginning of his current term, Trump even jumped at the idea of becoming part of British Commonwealth, saying, “I love King George!” UK designed Canada to prevent the US from becoming friendly with Russia. UK feared that it would sink into irrelevancy on the world stage were that to happen.

Posted by: susan mullen | Sep 3 2025 19:24 utc | 62

“Finlandisation” of Ukraine first of all requires some political entity that is recognisably Ukraine to survive; I’ve previously expressed doubts about this outcome and now, here we have Zelensky adding further kindling to the potential political conflagration that finally shatters Ukraine completely:

Zelensky did not attend Parubiy’s funeral, which leads to a drop in his rating in western Ukraine
In Ukraine, they are discussing the situation when “President” Zelensky did not attend the funeral of former Speaker of the Verkhovna Rada Andriy Parubiy. Considering that all politicians calling themselves opposition, including Yulia Tymoshenko, came to Lviv on the day of Parubiy’s funeral, Zelensky’s absence there causes a wide resonance in Ukraine, especially in its western part. The “party of power” was represented by Speaker of the Verkhovna Rada Stefanchuk.
Moreover, Zelensky did not publish a single post on his Telegram channel, which he actively uses, “dedicated” to Parubiy on the day of his funeral at the Lychakiv Cemetery in Lviv.
Instead, the head of the Kyiv regime talked about telephone conversations with foreign leaders, about Russian strikes, about what he thought about Vladimir Putin’s visit to China. After that, Zelensky left the territory of Ukraine, going first to meet with Danish Prime Minister Frederiksen, and then to Paris – to Macron.
All this was considered in Western Ukraine as “disrespect for the memory of one of the main figures of the Maidan.” Let us recall that Parubiy was the so-called commandant of the Maidan in 2014, and it is believed that it was through him that large cash flows went to finance, among other things, the well-known provocation with snipers.
Thus, Zelensky was very busy tried to distance himself from what was happening in Lviv, for which he is now largely losing his already extremely shaky support in the western regions.

https://en.topwar.ru/270452-zelenskij-ne-posetil-pohorony-parubija-chto-privodit-k-padeniju-ego-rejtinga-na-zapade-ukrainy.html
On a long enough timeline the support for Zelensky drops to zero…
Then what?

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 19:25 utc | 63

It is interesting to read all this about security guarantees and Ukraine normalization when this is a proxy war about public/private global finance….one of the theaters of our civilization war against the God Of Mammon cult form of social organization.
Or do barflies think structural social change is not in the offing?
Buddy, can you paradigm?
The shit show continues until it doesn’t.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 3 2025 19:29 utc | 64

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2025 15:58 utc | 13
we just saw Finland break its treaty with Russia when it joined NATO, which was very foolish of Stubb, but is in-line with his character

But it was his predecessor, Sanna Marin, who managed that. Quickly after she left to greener pastures, “working” as the strategic counsellor for the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, in London.
I don’t think Finland’s ascension to NATO has anything to do with character. Or if at all, then the other way around: the likes of Stubb, Marin, Macron, Starmer, Scholz, Merz are carefully selected and groomed for their role (e.g. in the Young Global Leader programme), and certain character traits are conducive to that. So their lack of values may help them get somewhere although never to true positions of power, just as mouthpieces.

Posted by: Konami | Sep 3 2025 19:33 utc | 65

Many years ago I recall none other Gideon ‘Slava Ukraini, Zelensk Kocaini!’ Rachmann write exactly this (Finlandisation as a solution to the war) in his column for the FT. It must be at least 15 years ago. Since then he has ever mentioned it, and became a true believer in the war.
‘Coalition of the swilling Kool-aid’ would be a better name for Macron and Starmer…..

Posted by: Judge Barbier | Sep 3 2025 19:37 utc | 66

Sorry .’never mentioned it’

Posted by: Judge Barbier | Sep 3 2025 19:38 utc | 67

The Europeans don’t understand Russian security needs because of their own imperialist interests. There is a widespread refusal to grasp the logic of the European position.
EU expansion into Eastern Europe is fundamental to German and French imperialism. Oil, gas, trade corridors, markets, cheap labor, rare earths and agricultural commodities. Eastern Europe was always the first Third World of Europe, and so it is today.
There is plenty of scholarship on this.
EU expansion merged with NATO expansion, and NATO played a key role in dismembering Yugoslavia and later Serbia.
Ukraine was to be the icing on the cake. Cheap labor, hot whores, a large market, rich resources. What’s not to want.
Russia would be forever marginalized, an isolated and neutered old power. Europe and NATO would secure their second tier base in the American world order.
But look how wrong it all went. The EU discredited itself when starving Greece. Russia attacks Ukraine. Cheap NRG is lost. China leapfrogs the EU technologically. Trump imposes tariffs. Migrants pour in post-Libya and Syria. Stagnation stalks the continent, with no avenue for growth and recovery.
The last bet is rearmament.
But there is not enough time or money for that and so Europe will fall further down the chain of imperialism.
That is why EU elites are freaking out. Their decades long imperial project is toast. They are acting out their class interests, even though they are losing.

Posted by: Crumchy | Sep 3 2025 19:42 utc | 68

An interestingly apropo interview of Wolfgang Streek:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2025/09/03/is-another-europe-possible/
His points are very well made … how popular is such thinking in Germany outside the MSM in the real population?

Posted by: Caliman | Sep 3 2025 19:48 utc | 69

@ Merv Ritchie | Sep 3 2025 17:42 utc | 42 // 45
yes.. ditto.. i have lived in canada my whole life too. it is depressing and worse what is happening in canada at present..buffy is right about that..
@ William Gruff | Sep 3 2025 17:47 utc | 43
i read it the very same way… the level of ignorance and stupidity on display with regard to europe is off the charts… one has to resort to alternative explanations, such as a big money grab that the politicians are onside with and profiting off of.. nothing else makes sense..
@ steel_porcupine | Sep 3 2025 19:06 utc | 56
thanks.. it is hard to fix stupid… and of course the media plays an active role in dumb-ing down most… the same dynamic is happening in both canadian and usa disaporas and that is unfortunate for them and us… i am not hopeful people are are ignorant will have any wake up call anytime soon… i suppose things will have to get much worse before they get better..
@ susan mullen | Sep 3 2025 19:24 utc | 62
we are indeed a colony of the uk/monarchy… that is a depressing reality that a lot of canucks are oblivious to… much of all this revolves around the history of imperialism and the love and obsession with money and power…. i hope one day this all changes, but at present it’s what we have… it is helpful to have some clear understanding of it.. this is sorely missing in most canucks understanding here.. thanks for your ongoing commentary at moa and here specifically..

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 19:57 utc | 70

Posted by: canuk | Sep 3 2025 16:55 utc | 30 “[T]here are more Ukrainians in Canada than in any other country excepting Ukraine of course… Approximately 1.3 to 1.4 million people of Ukrainian descent live in Canada, representing one of the largest Ukrainian diaspora communities in the world. This includes people with full or partial Ukrainian ethnic origins.”
I think you’re forgetting the 7 million Ukrainians who took their children to Russia for safety. Although perhaps you’re subtracting the ones who can now safely go home when it’s all over, and still be in Russia.
Anyway, in response to the main article, Ukraine’s best hope is to find one wise person and make him president. Someone like, for example, …
“Am I not ‘destroying’ my enemies, when I make friends of them?” – Abraham Lincoln

Posted by: Dalit | Sep 3 2025 19:58 utc | 71

he Neo-Nazi’s will just bide their time till they are strong again – and attack Russia and the Donbas, so for me Putin should finish the job at hand, with denazification in mind, and if needs be install a Russian friendly government in Ukraine.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 3 2025 19:08 utc | 57

Denazification is a pipe dream. Did the post-war assassination of Bandera and others solve the problem? Andrii Parubii is now another martyr to be placed on the walls of windowless rooms. The ideology will just go underground an re-emerge when conditions are right.
At some point Ukraine will be split with the former Novorossia territories returning to Russia. That remnant state will never elect a Russia friendly government. Rump Ukraine will join the EU as a sepsis that will poison the whole organism.

Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Sep 3 2025 20:03 utc | 72

India has emerged as Ukraine’s top diesel supplier in July 2025, just as the U.S. imposed steep 50% tariffs on Indian goods for continuing Russian oil imports.
The irony is stark: even as Washington punishes India over its energy ties with Moscow, Indian diesel is helping fuel Kyiv’s wartime economy.
According to NaftoRynok, a Ukrainian oil market analytics firm, India accounted for 15.5% of Ukraine’s diesel imports in July—more than any other country. Daily shipments averaged 2,700 tons, making it one of India’s highest monthly fuel export figures for the year.
From January to July 2025, India’s share in Ukraine’s diesel supply rose to 10.2%, a dramatic jump from just 1.9% during the same period in 2024. The diesel reportedly reaches Ukraine via tanker deliveries along the Danube from Romania, and through the OPET terminal in Turkey, despite sanctions. (businesstoday.in)

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 3 2025 20:05 utc | 73

porcupine @ 56
There is a broad range of opinion in Chicago’s Ukrainian community. The difference between those who arrived 140 years ago and those who arrived this morning is significant. Many are afraid to speak, that fear creates a facade of unity that isn’t there.
Of course it is not possible to speak with those who only bleat propaganda and those are definitely there.
The recent arrivals I’ve spoken to emphasize the current incumbents are mostly/only about war profiteering. And that the country is substantially depopulated. No reason to stay. No reason to be the last running for the exit. Except for those foolish enough to be money grubbing until the very end.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 3 2025 20:15 utc | 74

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 3 2025 16:34 utc | 25

I wonder if Stubb realizes what a grotesque blunder Finland made when silly Sanna Marin made it join NATO.

Stubb knows EXACTLY what happened: WHO groomed and placed Silly Sanna, HOW, and FOR WHICH REAL purposes.
Stubb himself is the ultimate insider – descended from Finnish “Brahmin” families on both sides (his maternal grandfather Kai Setälä was a professor), Stubb rose through the Euro machine before parachuting back into Finnish politics.
Stubb was very brave to speak out as he did. Don’t be surprised if you hear, before the year is out, that Stubb was mysteriously caught in a scandal or event that removes him from the Finnish presidency.

Posted by: Pacific Observer | Sep 3 2025 20:19 utc | 75

And that the country is substantially depopulated. No reason to stay. No reason to be the last running for the exit.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 3 2025 20:15 utc | 74
Some anecdata backing up your co-conversationalists view:

On the Ukrainian highway near the border with Moldova there are many abandoned cars of draft dodgers
In Odessa region yesterday border guards shot dead a man who tried to illegally cross the border and get to the Moldovan side. And there are many such people, and they are probably much luckier.
This is evidenced by footage published in local public groups.
They show that there are many abandoned cars of draft dodgers on the Ukrainian highway near the border with Moldova. One of them has a bullet hole in the side window. It is unknown what kind of trouble the car and those inside found themselves in. We can only hope that they are all alive, healthy and safe.
Actually, this is not the first time that there have been reports of cars abandoned en masse on the Moldovan border. Many similar reports and videos appeared, for example, in the spring and summer of last year. These can be both personal and official cars. Most often, they are abandoned on a certain section of the highway – in the area of ​​the border settlement of Palanka in the Odessa region. Immediately after the guardrail at the side of the road, there is a lowland, beyond which private houses can be seen. And this is already Moldova.
And a similar situation has been observed here for a long time. Draft dodgers specially buy old cars, drive them to the border, abandon them there and make their way to the Moldovan side.
As reported last spring by the official representative of the Ukrainian State Border Service, every day several dozen people try to illegally leave the country, fleeing forced mobilization.

https://en.topwar.ru/270442-na-ukrainskoj-trasse-u-granicy-s-moldaviej-mnogo-broshennyh-mashin-uklonistov.html

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 20:30 utc | 76

I think this makes a very important point.
That needs to be more widely known.
WHAT IF THE RUSSIANS HAD CONDUCTED THE COUP IN 2014?
In 2014 the United States (aligned with a faction in the Ukrainian government) conducted a coup in Kiev (to replace the democratically elected Yanukovich government which was considered insufficiently pro-Europe).
Many in Eastern Ukraine rebelled against this coup-government.
A civil war began.
The coup-government claimed authority over all of Ukraine
and called itself “the Ukrainian government”.
The coup-government sent in the military to deal with the eastern rebels.
The media claimed, and still claims, that the U.S. backed coup-government had a “right” to all of Ukraine and they champion (vigorously support) a march to the Russian border.

WHAT IF THIS HAD HAPPENED IN 2014?
In 2014 Russia (aligned with a faction in the Ukrainian government) conducted a coup in Kiev (to replace the Yanukovich government which was considered too pro-Europe).
Many in Western Ukraine rebelled against this coup-government.
A civil war began.
The coup-government claimed authority over all of Ukraine
and called itself “the Ukrainian government”.
The coup-government called in the Russian military to deal with the western rebels.
Of course, to be consistent, the media would have to claim that the Russian backed coup-government had a “right” to all of Ukraine and that they championed a march of the Russian military to the Polish border.

The important point is that statements such as “Ukraine will not give up any of its land,” and “Zelenski Rejects Giving Land” make no sense.
This is because the coup-government, and its successors, never established authority over all of Ukraine.
ANOTHER SCENARIO
What if the Chinese (aligned with a leftist faction in the Ukrainian government) had conducted a coup in Kiev. Would this give them authority over all of Ukraine?

Posted by: John | Sep 3 2025 20:31 utc | 77

“Denazification is a pipe dream.”
Fool Me Twice (72).
Possibly, but I have very little doubt that Moscow has all the names of the major Neo-Nazi’s in Ukraine, and with enough movement within the country, after Ukraine is subdued, they could remove them, of course some of them would flee to neigbouring nations, or the USA, or Britain until they could return again.
What else we should take into account – is the Ukrainian public, who must be sick to death of this conflict, and the oppressiveness of the Neo-Nazi regime towards them, they could – when the time comes point them out, or even capture the – so they couldn’t come back and cause such murder and mayhem again in Ukraine.
Neo-Nazism could be greatly reduced in Ukraine.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 3 2025 20:37 utc | 78

Take an overview of the above discussion and ask, “OK, what’s realistic here, given Ukr. fanaticism”?
Russia kills off Ukr males of draft age and the rest run away to other nations. Build weapons? Who works the factories? Who signs up for the military? …….who’s left?
Cut off Odessa from the north, I know that’s difficult but it reduces Ukraine into poverty and feebleness permanently. Game over.

Posted by: Eighthman | Sep 3 2025 20:37 utc | 79

Nothing can “guarantee” ukraines security, or anyone else’s for that matter. There is no one permanent solution that can be found. If Russia was broken up into competing chunks ukraine would find itself under threats from Turkey, Romania, Poland, and Hungary who have designs over its territory. It could just lose control over its own territory as well and be under warlord control. Migrants could flood in and establish their own nations.
It’s, and everyone’s, security is best assured by shared prosperity. That’s means development of its people and honest commercial competition with its neighbours.
Yeah I know I’m not optimistic about that, but it’s the golden path.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Sep 3 2025 20:44 utc | 80

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Sep 3 2025 20:44 utc | 79
#######
What’s needed is what’s always needed.
Strong men make good times.
Good times make weak men.
Weak men make hard times.
Hard times make strong men.
Basically weakness should never be tolerated. Weakness is anti-survival.
Zionists sew weakness everywhere as a protective mechanism and to further their own degeneracy.
If all of them were instantly teleported to the moon, would the world be worse off?
I’m not talking about Jews, although many are unrepentant Zionists. I’m talking about Judeo-Christians and anyone with a supremacist bent. They serve no productive or humanistic purpose.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 3 2025 20:54 utc | 81

@ John | Sep 3 2025 20:31 utc | 76
Waste of time discussing ‘what ifs’ like that.
You might as well ask “What if the Moon was made of cheese?”, it makes about the same sense.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:08 utc | 82

The eurocucks are about to endure a long, cold winter, with continued economic decline to keep them warm.
Posted by: seer | Sep 3 2025 18:33 utc | 50
#######
The elites will fly first class to somewhere warm, drinking champagne.
The people will freeze. The people have infinite tolerance which is why they get manipulated and fed into the wood chipper.
I am big on incentives but then, one day I put myself (as a thought experiment) into the elite’s shoes and I realized that my priority would be to cover my ass.
The elites are decades beyond the Hoi Polloi in strategic thinking.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 3 2025 21:15 utc | 83

Merv Ritchie @ 42
re: ‘Canuckistan MSM lies misleads and manipulates’ – Here’s a big steaming sample of the’Conniving Bull Crap’ you mention, courtesy of that other shit-machine CTV:
Carney’s Europe Trips Send Strong Message To Trump
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/article/eric-ham-carneys-recent-european-trip-sends-a-strong-message-to-trump/
“…Not stopping there, Carney also made a point to insert Canada into the Ukraine-Russia war with his surprise visit. The visit comes on the heels of the hastily orchestrated and clumsily executed summit where Russian dictator Vladimir Putin once again appeared to out maneuver President Trump.
Carney, by contrast, left no doubt where his country stood on the brutal war. ‘Canada’s support for Ukraine is unwavering,’ Carney said. ‘We are with you every step of the way, in your fight to defend your sovereignty, and to realize your dreams for your country.’
Still, the prime minister offered an olive branch to the US president. In a show of diplomacy, Carney said, ‘I applaud the leadership of the transformative US President Donald Trump in creating the possibilities for peace.’
From securing deals on critical earth minerals; to fortifying ties with Ukraine in its ongoing war against Russia; to the procurement of submarines, Prime Minister Carney is once again making Canada’s presence felt on the world stage…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 3 2025 21:19 utc | 84

A sure-fire winner, an absolute guarantee of Ukraine’s security? Send F-35s, because the Russians will die of laughter…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:28 utc | 85

More:
Canadian Imperialism’s Fascist Friends (1 of 5)
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/05/16/vxen-m16.html
“Ottawa’s decades-long alliance with the Ukrainian far-right and the NATO war on Russia…”
Cults: The CIA’s Secret Weapon
https://en.rtdoc.tv/films/775-cults-the-cias-secret-weapon
“Canada is the country most like Ukraine.” Petro Poroshenko

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 3 2025 21:30 utc | 86

Waste of time discussing ‘what ifs’ like that.
You might as well ask “What if the Moon was made of cheese?”, it makes about the same sense.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:08 utc | 81
Not really. Because that was a real possibility back then. I remember that the Western Ukraine threatened to secede if the other side did prevail. The fact that they did not respect the will of Eastern Ukraine when their side prevailed just showed the depth of their hypocrisy.

Posted by: hopehely | Sep 3 2025 21:32 utc | 87

So, the business of building armaments manufacturing facilities in Ukraine is booming.

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | Sep 3 2025 21:34 utc | 88

The Ukraine would have a lot more weapons if its crooked officials hadn’t been selling them on the black market…and how long do you think these dumb Western countries are going to build factories when they can’t be protected?
When Russia takes Odessa, Ukraine is finished…and when the Power of Siberia 2 pipeline is completed, the EU and its Euro-trash rulers is finished…
All in all, good riddance…

Posted by: pyrrhus | Sep 3 2025 21:39 utc | 89

@ hopehely | Sep 3 2025 21:32 utc | 86
All fair comment, my response to @ John | Sep 3 2025 20:31 utc | 76 was more about the futility of discussing something that didn’t happen 11 years ago. Sure, if such circumstances had occurred back then, if many of us actively commenting now were actively commenting back in those times, it could be a worthwhile topic of discussion.
But it seems to me to be a pointless distraction now to rake over non-existent coals of what might have been.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:42 utc | 90

Ukraine Blocks Website of Daily Newspaper junge Welt
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/09/03/aycv-s03.html
“The Ukrainian authorities have blocked access to the German daily newspaper junge Welt…The blockade is part of the sweeping censorship and repressive measures of the Zelensky regime in Kiev. The total number of domains blocked nationwide since the imposition of martial law varies greatly depending on the source. It is probably over 6,000.
The jW editorial team reports that it was confronted several weeks ago with wild accusations from the ‘Azov’ lobby in the United States. The editors were urged to ‘change’ articles about Ukrainian Nazi units in the army, and extensive legal consequences were threatened.
If the puppet regime in Kiev is now banning German-language anti-war publications that are already under attack from the German state, it must be assumed that Zelensky is acting on the direct instructions of his paymasters in the German government.
Ukraine is therefore not only the theatre of NATO’s war against Russia; it is also becoming a precedent for a European police state. In Ukraine, the European imperialists are implementing measures they are planning for the entire continent.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 3 2025 21:43 utc | 91

Socialism in Norway …
International “superstar” who’ll now work once again for Norway
Polls place Labour as Norway’s largest party at present

Posted by: Oui | Sep 3 2025 21:52 utc | 92

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:42 utc | 89
I understand that, and for all practical purposes it makes sense to dismiss all unrealized paths as pointless musings.
However in this case I think it might be worthwhile to realize that Ukraine would be fallen apart no matter of the outcome. It was already dead 11 years ago. What we call ‘Ukraine’ today is a zombie state animated by puppet masters from, well we all know where from. And those mofos just do not want to give up let it rest in pieces.

Posted by: hopehely | Sep 3 2025 21:58 utc | 93

@ John Gilberts | Sep 3 2025 21:43 utc | 90
Of course, it’s all done in the name of defending “freedom and democracy” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2n87YKSjrA

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:59 utc | 94

UK designed Canada to prevent the US from becoming friendly with Russia. UK feared that it would sink into irrelevancy on the world stage were that to happen.
Posted by: susan mullen | Sep 3 2025 19:24 utc | 62
Thank you for an even wider take. Not surprised. Just startled by the lens of your take. Thank you for that.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Sep 3 2025 21:59 utc | 95

Errr Finland President Stubb seems to be saying
Western countries could “lose the game” to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) unless they reassess their approach to the Global South, Finnish President Alexander Stubb has warned. His comments come following the latest SCO summit in Tianjin, which has been seen as a show of unity among its members, which include China, Russia and India.
Speaking in Helsinki alongside Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda, Stubb urged his Western European counterparts and the US to adopt a more “cohesive and dignified foreign policy,” particularly with regard to nations such as India, against which Washington had recently imposed extensive tariffs.
But Merz wants more to hurt the Russian economy
Ukraine’s Western backers should accept that military efforts against Russia are failing and should instead focus on undermining its economy, including by sanctioning its trade partners, German Chancellor Friedrich Merz said Tuesday.
its all rather mixed up

Posted by: Jo | Sep 3 2025 22:02 utc | 96

Westerners are loathe to admit it but Finland was near-fascist in the Interwar and Karelia was a dagger poised at the then Leningrad. Most of the Finnish officer corps were alumni of the Imperial German 27th Jaegers and Finland was hosting German advisers.
No wonder the Reds went after them.

Posted by: ChalkLine | Sep 3 2025 22:03 utc | 97

I think it might be worthwhile to realize that Ukraine would be fallen apart no matter of the outcome. It was already dead 11 years ago. What we call ‘Ukraine’ today is a zombie state animated by puppet masters from, well we all know where from. And those mofos just do not want to give up let it rest in pieces.

Posted by: hopehely | Sep 3 2025 21:58 utc | 92
100% agreed. The West made a huge mistake though, thinking that a 3D-printed facsimile of a dagger pointed at Russia would be as sharp and powerful as a properly-forged blade.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 22:09 utc | 98

@ hopehely | Sep 3 2025 21:32 utc | 86 // Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 3 2025 21:42 utc | 89
who wants to engage with a broken record that pastes this shit on every thread, or every other thread the past month?? not me.. i see it and skip over it, like i would an advertisement for pretty much anything.. this poster doesn’t engage.. just copies and pastes up the yinyang..

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2025 22:11 utc | 99

Moscow is open to bringing the direct negotiations with Ukraine to “a truly high political level,” Russian President Vladimir Putin has said.
The president made the remarks on Wednesday during a Q&A session with the media, which concluded his four-day visit to China.
Asked about the performance of the Russian negotiating team during talks hosted by Türkiye, Putin spoke highly about the group and its head, presidential aide Vladimir Medinsky, in particular.
“I am satisfied with Medinsky’s work. If there is a need to do something regarding raising the level [of negotiations], bringing it to a political level, we are ready for it,” Putin said, refusing to name any officials who could potentially participate in such talks.
via rt
people were asking if USA time limit ultimatums had run out?

Posted by: Jo | Sep 3 2025 22:22 utc | 100