Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 2, 2025
Uncertainty Increases As Real Tariffs Reach Higher Levels

A few days ago this graph appeared in the Financial Times (I unfortunately have lost the link): 


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It demonstrates the worst feature of Trump's tariff mania. There seems to be no final state in it on which one could base an investment decision.

I have pointed out in previous posts that it will not only be the tariffs themselves that will damage the global economy but the uncertainty created by Trump's willy-nilly enacting of them:

The poison that still paralyses everything is the uncertainty and insecurity that comes with the 90 days limit of the deal and with no perspective of what might follow. Who will post orders for, let's say return-to-school items, if it is unknown what price will have to be paid for them?

and

Uncertainty is a poison, suppressing real economic activities.

Two days ago those who had invested (or speculated) in U.S. copper took a hard hit:



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It was a direct consequence of uncertainty created by tariffs:

The copper market’s historic collapse is about how a single policy shift can puncture a carefully constructed financial illusion. For months, global copper flows were distorted by speculative bets around U.S. trade policy. Traders flooded U.S. shores with refined copper, expecting tariffs to lift domestic prices and widen arbitrage spreads. But when the Trump administration slapped a 50% tariff only on semi finished copper while exempting raw inputs like cathodes, ore, and scrap, the entire trade setup imploded. The copper that was supposed to benefit from protectionism is now stranded in warehouses with no premium, and in many cases, at risk of being re-exported into an already oversupplied global market.

This is unlikely to be the last investment based on tariff policies that will go wrong:

The copper collapse is a case study in how geopolitical uncertainty and financial leverage amplify each other and how fragile our assumptions are in a bifurcating world economy.

See also Atrios of Eschaton on Tariff Week:

We're past the "panic the market" phase of tariff posturing, for whatever reason, and now we'll see if actual real economy dangers can get them to do anything other than blame Powell.

I do stand by my earlier assertion that tariffs themselves wouldn't be economy-destroying, but the tariffs + surrounding uncertainty (new policy every day!) + plenty of other things they've done (ICE – workers and tourism, student loans, ACA premiums about to skyrocket, federal job cuts, …) …

The tariffs matter, the ongoing uncertainty – which will never stop under President Deals – matters more. You might invest in a factory if there's a 20% tariff, you won't if that tariff might be 50, or your competitors in other countries might suddenly get a better deal, or…

The Tariff Act of 1939 (Smoot-Hawley) brought the effective U.S. tariff rate to 20%:

Intended to bolster domestic employment and manufacturing, the tariffs instead deepened the Depression because the U.S.'s trading partners retaliated with tariffs of their own, leading to U.S. exports and global trade plummeting.

The current effective tariff rate is, according to the Financial Times graph above, now aimed at 17.5%. But that is without a deal with China which is still to come and which will likely increase the total level. It is unlikely that the high rate alone will have the similar negative effects as observed in the 1930s.

But combined with the uncertainty created by Trump's unpredictable enactment and retraction of tariff decisions the consequences may well exceed those.

Unless of course the tariffs get overturned:

“The constitution was very clear in saying there’s one branch that has the power to tariff and it isn’t the president and it isn’t the courts – it’s the Congress of the United States.”

“if you’re raising revenue, you’ve got to originate that bill in the House of Representatives… The president tried to do that in his first term and that legislation failed…”

“What’s happened here — and the way we’ve always historically done things — when presidents want to have trade authority or negotiate a deal or threaten tariffs, they go to Congress in advance and get that approval. They can’t go off on their own and say “Hey, I know what’s best and blow off Congress.”

It will be good for everyone if the courts decide the case against Trump.

Comments

thanks b… uncertainty is built into all of this and i think trump is delighted in the great powers he holds in being a regular ‘jack in the box’… he and his supporters may wish to see the reshoring of manufacturing into the usa, but even if this happens, it will take a good long time 20 years or more… his magic recipe isn’t going to work overnight and in the meantime his unpredictability is going to continue.. in fact, his bombastic approach to everything is going to be his and the usa’s undoing if he stays in power for long enough… people, businesses and countries will move elsewhere.. the exceptional nations reign is over… we can thank trump for that..

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 17:04 utc | 1

b,
This is already good. America is going to strangle itself with tariffs and that is good for the whole planet.
More tariffs!
More military spending!
More sanctions!

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 2 2025 17:08 utc | 2

“It may well be that the courts will decide the case against Trump.”
I tend to doubt that. US Imperialism has seen an objective decline since 2007. That decline was papered over with billions in government money, but it has deepened every year since. Trump’s tariffs are a final, qualitative shift from the trade regime that existed after WW2 to one similar to what existed in the dirty 1930s.
The point is, this isn’t just Trump’s madness. Huge sections of the ruling class support his desperate attempt to arrest what is a fatal decline in the power and influence of the west internationally.
From one of the better authors at the http://www.wsww.org:
“The economic warfare initiated by Trump is not simply the product of his fevered brain or those of his fascistic advisors.
His actions are the expression of an existential crisis confronting US imperialism which was developing long before he appeared on the scene.
It is exemplified in the transformation of the US from the industrial powerhouse of the world into the center of financial parasitism revealed in a series of storms and crises – extending from the stock market collapse of October 1987, to the tech-wreck of 2000-2001, the 2008 financial crash, and the freezing of the Treasury bond market in March 2020 at the start of the pandemic.
US imperialism has no economic program to resolve this crisis, neither by tariffs nor any other measures, but is driven to the use of mechanical means.
The militarist character of Trump’s tariff war against the world is apparent throughout the executive order.
It refers to the impact of the so-called lack of reciprocity by foreign trading partners on “the domestic manufacturing base, critical supply chains, and the defense manufacturing base.”
Throughout the order, there are references to the need for all countries which seek to trade with the US to align with it on “economic and national security matters.” In other words, they must become fully integrated with the drive by the US to maintain its position as the dominant imperialist power, above all in the battle against China, or they will be hammered economically.”

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:11 utc | 3

Germany is in zero position to claim that the tariffs are bad for America. Not only did the EU offer humiliatingly good terms to America, more suited to a vassal desperate to avoid annexation, the current tariff rate is above the rate associated with a “climbdown.”
It’s absolutely shameful how Germans have to beg American courts to strike the deal down. Almost like they’re not a real country anymore.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 17:12 utc | 4

If I’m not mistaken the loudmouthed new yorker (aka the Manischewitz Candidate) claims he is justified in making up his own rules on the basis that this is an “emergency”.

Posted by: chunga | Aug 2 2025 17:12 utc | 5

in fact, his bombastic approach to everything is going to be his and the usa’s undoing if he stays in power for long enough… people, businesses and countries will move elsewhere.. the exceptional nations reign is over… we can thank trump for that..
Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 17:04 utc | 1
I don’t think Trump is that important a factor in the decline of the west. He’s just a faster hayride to collapse. He’s not the cause, just an idiotic accelerant. He’s the symptom of a much deeper illness.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:17 utc | 6

james@1……appearances aside, I don’t think anyone in Team Trump is thinking short term, there is no over night magic cure, many here are focused on the short term but as you point out “twenty years” even that is short term, it took Putin almost thirty to get Russia to where it is today, SMO aside…..Trump’s style might be Gangster, but even Rap sells …..world wide…..
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Aug 2 2025 17:17 utc | 7

It’s absolutely shameful how Germans have to beg American courts to strike the deal down. Almost like they’re not a real country anymore.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 17:12 utc | 4
That is the point of this new economic regime: to force complete submission to all US Imperialist dictates within its sphere of influence. They are trying to boost themselves for the final reckoning with the core BRICS: China/Russia/Iran/N Korea.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:21 utc | 8

I have written before that Trump’s plan is to crash the US/global economies as fast as possible so he is in office for the most time to effect changes his God Of Mammon handlers want.
The uncertainty is a feature, not a bug and I am beginning to think that some of the God Of Mammon cult maybe pitted against others aligned with newbie oligarchs.
What I find fascinating is that Trump has not been killed by his opponents yet which leads me to think that most of what Trump is doing has overall God Of Mammon cult approval….the crash seems to be taking longer than I think it should be taking but maybe all the alternative private money made to look like public pieces have not been legalized yet.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 2 2025 17:26 utc | 9

Trump is desperately trying to find $600billion in tariffs to reduce the $2 trillion federal deficit planned for FY2026.
Otherwise, insolvency crisis in FY2027

Posted by: Exile | Aug 2 2025 17:29 utc | 10

They are trying to boost themselves for the final reckoning with the core BRICS: China/Russia/Iran/N Korea.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:21 utc | 8
I wouldn’t even have Iran in the core. China would happily toss them over the side if the alternative was Arab states firmly aligning with America. But it’s just as likely that the Trump legacy will be the collapse of the EU in favor of more nationalist governments. That would benefit many people, especially the Europeans themselves.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 17:30 utc | 11

These tariffs are designed to create as much wealth as possible for the chosen few before the shit hits the fan, a last hoorah if you like. In a few months time the US will have to default burning the bondholders just after the shareholders have been incinerated. No country outside of the west will want to trade with the US and then Trump will achieve MAGA.

Posted by: Ogre | Aug 2 2025 17:37 utc | 12

“There seems to be no final state in it on which one could base an investment decision”
Investment decisions are available only to those who pay and support the new clan and its leader. what he wants most is to gain the full support of Israeli masters so his clan remains in power for a few generations. That would explain every single thing he does, doesn’t it? He does not need the congress or the people’s approval, he is a king not a president. He can bomb anyone using imaginary self-defense powers, as he explains it himself, no approval needed. He publicly said he plans to remain for a third term. He just fired the statistics director because he didn’t like the statistics. He said his little girl has created 14m jobs ( vox.com/2019/11/12/20961764/trump-ivanka-created-14-million-jobs-whopper )
Like Marty from Amerika says about “evil Europeans”, they get what they voted for. So does he, it is what he and millions others wanted. Let them enjoy their last president

Posted by: rk | Aug 2 2025 17:40 utc | 13

They are trying to boost themselves for the final reckoning with the core BRICS: China/Russia/Iran/N Korea.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:21 utc | 8
I wouldn’t even have Iran in the core. China would happily toss them over the side if the alternative was Arab states firmly aligning with America. But it’s just as likely that the Trump legacy will be the collapse of the EU in favor of more nationalist governments. That would benefit many people, especially the Europeans themselves.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 17:30 utc | 11
Why do you think China would dump Iran? I know the nationalism of the core is always an impediment, but under pressure, fast friendships are forged.
The emergence of real nationalist governments in Europe (not subordinate to US Imperialism in any way) is unlikely and would be met with so much more US aggression. Nonetheless, if nationalist EU regimes tied themselves tightly to China/Russia they could likely withstand the pressure from the US. Could any European country do that?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:43 utc | 14

As observed by Homer Simpson: “There’s three ways to do things. The right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way! Isn’t that the wrong way? Yeah, but faster.”

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Aug 2 2025 17:44 utc | 15

It’s quite a mess. After threatening to fire Powell for not lowering interest rates to “stimulate” the economy, for some reason or another, he fires the BLS boss for fake numbers because the economy is “booming”.
The insanity needle was really moved with the submarine threats. Let it be known that the US president has publicly admitted he is unwilling, or unable, to read and insists on receiving “intelligence briefings” by way of “Fox and Friends” style video skits. It occurs to me that the bulk of his support comes from America’s version of Banderites -> The fox news religious right boomer. (and AIPAC)

Posted by: chunga | Aug 2 2025 17:51 utc | 16

Good post on an important topic. More…
The Militarist Agenda at the Centre of Trump’s Tariff War Against the World
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/08/02/frwb-a02.html
“The executive order issued by US President Trump on Thursday evening, imposing sweeping tariffs on virtually every trading partner of the US, is a milestone in the decay and breakdown of American and global capitalism.
The US has now created a tariff wall around itself equivalent to that imposed with disastrous consequences both economically and politically, during the Great Depression of the 1930s, and which played a decisive role in creating the conditions for the eruption of WWII, the greatest bloodbath in human history.
The consequences of Trump’s economic war against the world will be no less significant…”

Posted by: JohnGilberts | Aug 2 2025 17:52 utc | 17

One might expect a world power with 300 million citizens to organise itself in such a way that it can sustainably justify its existence through its independence from the productivity of third parties.
As if its own sanctions policy towards Russia is the model and the tariffs are a disguised sanctioning of its own economy.
Because it has also ‘helped’ Russia…
I wouldn’t put it past Trump to think like that.
Otherwise, it might be worth taking a look at
“Peter Kent Navarro (born 15 July 1949) is an American economist and has been US President Donald Trump’s senior advisor for trade and production since January 2025. He previously served in the first Trump administration, first as Director of the White House National Trade Council and then as Director of the new Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy.
Navarro is considered a ‘crude outsider’ by economists
He is an advocate of isolationist (economic) policy, a supporter of protectionism and considers the US trade deficit of several hundred billion US dollars to be detrimental to the US economy.
Navarro’s assumptions and theories on monetary and trade policy are regarded as absurd and destructive in academic discourse.

Source wiki

Posted by: BlindSpot | Aug 2 2025 17:54 utc | 18

@18
So, Navarro is at odds with the church of modern monetarists theory (MMT) where debt don’t matter and printing money is a good thing.
Not that Navarro is right

Posted by: paddy | Aug 2 2025 18:03 utc | 19

Why do you think China would dump Iran? I know the nationalism of the core is always an impediment, but under pressure, fast friendships are forged.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:43 utc | 14
I agree with your assessment.
Just like Russia, China is interested in sovereign and stable states on its borders, especially in the direction of Islam. And sovereign and stable states value partners behind them who favour peaceful coexistence. Peaceful coexistence is friendship.

Posted by: BlindSpot | Aug 2 2025 18:08 utc | 20

The Supreme Court might just strike down Trump’s tariffs…only to have Congress hand him a blank check for imposing tariffs anyway. Congress has, after all, done the same thing with war powers.

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 2 2025 18:13 utc | 21

1
Paradoxically.

Posted by: Laurence | Aug 2 2025 18:14 utc | 22

World war or world economic crisis where is covering for Epstein Clint’s taking the world?

Posted by: paddy | Aug 2 2025 18:15 utc | 23

“I don’t think Trump is that important a factor in the decline of the west. He’s just a faster hayride to collapse. He’s not the cause, just an idiotic accelerant. He’s the symptom of a much deeper illness.”
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:17 utc | 6
I agree and I think that this also applies to the West’s slide into full blown fascism. He is a symptom of the disease, a reflection, not the cause.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 2 2025 18:24 utc | 24

@they call me mister. Iran isn’t an ARab state, plus the fact that China needs Iran for it Silk Road so try again

Posted by: Ggersh | Aug 2 2025 18:25 utc | 25

This sounds obvious, just what I’ve been saying. Companies like predictability. That’s why they choice countries to invest in with predictably legislation and taxation. You can not make long term business plans with Trump changes every week. You can’t build a factory and in two years no more tariffs putting you out of business. Even when making a trade deal (or extortion) you can not be sure because if Trumps wakes up and has a belly itch after eating Indian curry he might slap tariffs on India.
If it goes to court the judges should rule tariffs illegal. Congress has still a few sane voices so they would never use tariffs in this way, blackmail that is.

Posted by: Ramon | Aug 2 2025 18:26 utc | 26

Trump creating uncertainty in the markets doesn’t make any sense until one realizes that the market uncertainty is the leverage that Trump is trying to create in order to extract concessions that he wants from other countries.

Posted by: Monos | Aug 2 2025 18:31 utc | 27

Escobar: Chinese Foxes, American Sharks & European Rodents
https://strategic-culture.su/news/2025/07/31/chinese-foxes-american-sharks-european-rodents/
“Everything that matters on trade and tech will be decided between the two economic superpowers. By now it’s clear that a potential third actor, the EU, has simply committed serial suicide.”

Posted by: JohnGilberts | Aug 2 2025 18:39 utc | 28

@ They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 17:12 utc | 4
you think because b is based in germany, germany is saying this?? that’s funny..
@ Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:17 utc | 6
” faster hayride”… true… this is long coming as i see it, and trump is only the latest installment..
@ sean the leprechaun | Aug 2 2025 17:17 utc | 7
true! and yes rap sells, although i’m not buying, lol..
@ psychohistorian | Aug 2 2025 17:26 utc | 9
yes, that makes good sense… will see if he can do it single-handed.. there is a lot of money to be made crashing the system.. i am sure the wealthy elite have it all pre-planned.. obama got the amercians to pay for the last bailout.. worked out great for the banks, didn’t it?

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 19:02 utc | 29

b,
Another bad reference to articles based on junk economics.
Tariff uncertainty increases the incentive for MNCs to invest in US production because that is the only way to remove said uncertainty.
Uncertainty is also far harder to game via fancy Big 4 consultancy accounting games.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:23 utc | 30

Attention b!!–Smoot/Hawley was in 1930. At your link:

Hoover signed the bill against the advice of many senior economists, yielding to pressure from his party and business leaders. Intended to bolster domestic employment and manufacturing, the tariffs instead deepened the Depression because the U.S.’s trading partners retaliated with tariffs of their own, leading to U.S. exports and global trade plummeting. Economists and historians widely regard the act as a policy misstep, and it remains a cautionary example of protectionist policy in modern economic debates.[2] It was followed by more liberal trade agreements, such as the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act of 1934.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 2 2025 19:23 utc | 31

It’s absolutely shameful how Germans have to beg American courts to strike the deal down. Almost like they’re not a real country anymore.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 17:12 utc | 4
Tracy v. Iran (Information and Security), 2017 ONCA 549 (CanLII) https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2017/2017onca549/2017onca549.html

Iran makes a general argument regarding statutory interpretation, submitting that any interpretation of the JVTA and SIA that results in the removal of its state immunity violates the statutory interpretation presumptions of compliance with international law and against retroactivity. …
… In short, Parliament has the power to make legislation retroactive and it has the power to ignore international law. Parliamentary sovereignty requires courts to give effect to a statute that demonstrates such an unequivocal legislative intention, absent constitutional concerns, which are not raised here.

Iran appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada — which will not even provide the text of the appeal which was summarily dismissed, but pro’ly on grounds that it would bring the administration of justice into [further] disrepute. Iran’s not about to police our Constitution. Iran also has a Parliament. Caetera sequitur.

Posted by: Laurence | Aug 2 2025 19:26 utc | 32

@ c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:23 utc | 30
MNC -for anyone who doesn’t know – multi national corp..
the fact is, why would an MNC invest in the usa when the uncertainty over tariffs remains open?? it looks like you didn’t read the whole article c1ue..

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 19:26 utc | 33

Smoot was 1930: Your piece, “The Tariff Act of 1939 (Smoot-Hawley) brought the effective U.S. tariff rate to 20%”

Posted by: Boris Seymour | Aug 2 2025 19:28 utc | 34

@james #1
Yet again: I reference Russia.
You only need 20 years to reshore if you don’t have capital, expertise or market incentives; Russia has accomplished an enormous amount of reshoring in just 3 years.
This is different than a 3rd world country using mercantilism to industrialize. In this case, they lack the first 2.
With China: the singular focus of centralized planning was able to muster China’s frankly limited financial resources in the 1970s and 1980s into a very efficient industrialization process – but lack of money and expertise (and the core resources) are not problems potential US reshoring companies face.
So let’s not reference 3rd world industrializations as reference points for whether or how long it would take for the US to reshore manufacturing. They are not relevant.
A more relevant case would be post WW2 rebuilding in Europe and Japan.
But even there: the massive social, human, infrastructure and other damages and debts from WW2 are (largely) not present in the US, so even those reference points are not strongly predictive.
Nonetheless: if the US were to undergo even half the growth of Germany under its “WirtShaftsWunder” ie 4% annual growth rates – this would be a mighty triumph.
So even if it takes 20 years, as with post WW2 Germany, to regain its pre WW2 industrial production if the 20 years in question see this type of economic progress.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:32 utc | 35

ever heard of a typo?? b makes them from time to time.. anyone who follows the link he gave can see the date of its beginning..

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 19:33 utc | 36

Posted by: chunga | Aug 2 2025 17:12 utc | 5
######
Peak modern government.
Everything is an emergency.
Everything is national security.
Everything is top secret.
Once allowed, the incentives to abuse exceptions move the Overton Window until everything is an exception, making nothing exceptional.
It’s not Trump’s fault. It is an inevitability of big government.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 2 2025 19:35 utc | 37

@ c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:32 utc | 35
the idea b examples “The tariffs matter, the ongoing uncertainty – which will never stop under President Deals – matters more. You might invest in a factory if there’s a 20% tariff, you won’t if that tariff might be 50, or your competitors in other countries might suddenly get a better deal, or…”
what are you thoughts on this c1ue? thanks..

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 19:36 utc | 38

>>> “the fact is, why would an MNC invest in the usa when the uncertainty over tariffs remains open?? it looks like you didn’t read the whole article c1ue..” <<< Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 19:26 utc | 33 . . . Maybe you should ask the MNC's who are currently flooding capital investment into the US right now, same as they did during the 2017-18 case study that you ignored.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 19:37 utc | 39

@james #33
I read the whole article – which is why I termed it based on junk economics.
An MNC is all about predictability of profit. Not just profit alone, but predictability.
The junk economists are the ones who say that “uncertainty” will prevent building of factories in the US – that is bullshit because it is precisely uncertainty that makes an MNC want to build such a factory.
A US factory making profitable products for the MNC is far less unpredictable in the face of tariffs, much less tariff uncertainty, than trying to balance cheap foreign labor with said tariffs/tariff uncertainty.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:38 utc | 40

Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:11 utc | 3
*** Throughout the order, there are references to the need for all countries which seek to trade with the US to align with it on “economic and national security matters.” In other words, they must become fully integrated with the drive by the US to maintain its position as the dominant imperialist power, above all in the battle against China, or they will be hammered economically.” ***
Accelerated convergence of the ‘NATO’ kind, as desired by a psychopathic religion-addled Mafia franchise still trying to pretend that it is a real country.

Posted by: Cynic | Aug 2 2025 19:39 utc | 41

@james #33
The great offshoring of the 1990s and 2000s occurred not just because of the incompetence of US manufacturing policy – but precisely because of the sellout of the US political class in guaranteeing the offshorers that there would not be things like tariffs to get in the way of offshored US production.
Traditional Democrat policy was against offshoring but Bill Clinton changed that.
And the Republicans repudiated the small-c Conservatives like Ross Perot who also were against offshoring. Remember him? Giant sucking sound? Perot was shut down on the conservative/Republican side in favor of neocon/neoliberal economic theory.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:42 utc | 42

Hmm (typing with one hand out of the coffin j/k).
Does this guy realize that the biggest “US” (multinational) companies are investing a lot outside of the US? Keeping a lot of their profits outside of US jurisdiction and the reach of the IRS? When will he expropriate them for treason? Next week?
Hello Alphabet, you get to solve the US deficit you lucky you! 😀
Also: looking forward to the him-ness eating an Indian curry live in public and broadcast over the internet, or is he too much of a coward? Doctors orders not to? Won’t survive the next 24 hours? The curry has been replaced with ground up cheeseburgers and food dye and the rice made from the bun?
Cheeseburgergate! :3

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 19:43 utc | 43

Verifying you are human…
Failed
The scheme of using privileged debt as currency, where the debt incurs additional debt in the form of ‘interest’ that ‘compounds’ for the rest of time, that compounding interest is ether unpayable or real goods and services are paid in place if the debt currency, eventually ends in those privileged with the ability to create the debt currency will end up owning the whole planet or the compounding debt gets ever larger and get larger faster until it expands to infinite size and speed.
The Donald, having gone bankrupt for the most that anyone ever has, but he came out f bankruptcy the best anyone ever has, has been chosen to preside over the bankruptcy of the Federal Reserve System while keeping those in charge both hidden and in control afterwards.
Them BRICS that everyone is pinning their hopes on are using a “stable coin” called “Teather” to settle trade, and Teather is backed 1 for 1 with US Treasuries debt Dollars!
The choices are, use a positive value money (like gold, or a basket of diverse commodities or use a negative value debit currency, and fight over who gets the privilege of creating the debt. There are no other options.
The BRICS governments do not want to give up their printing presses so they refuse to adopt a positive value money and they perpetuate the problem
Anyone who says “reserve currency” should be dipped in shit. No one ever said “reserve currency” until after Nixon stole the world’s gold in 1971. Before that, we had “money” and that was not any coin it was the elemental atoms that make up the coin that mankind can not create or destroy.

Posted by: Hot Carl | Aug 2 2025 19:43 utc | 44

>>> “There seems to be no final state in it on which one could base an investment decision.” <<< . . . Really? Looks to me like a great mass of investors are making the decision to invest foreign capital... in the US. You'd know that if you actually looked at the data, rather than bleating data-free neoliberal nostrums about uncertainty. Neoliberalism is a hell of a drug. Those guys are plenty certain, fyi.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 19:45 utc | 45

@james #38
The answer is obvious: if factories anywhere else in the world are subject to tariffs period, much less shifting tariffs, why would you not source your MNC production for the US, in the US? Made in USA = no tariffs, period.
I don’t see why this is hard to follow. The uncertainty of tariffs makes it harder to arbitrage cheap labor/taxes/regulations, not easier.
Granted, the tariff problem doesn’t go away completely because of course, some things must be imported, but a lot of it does.
And the US is not a country where you MUST import everything, unlike say China or Japan. This kind of thing would never work for countries that are forced to import most of their energy and food.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:46 utc | 46

@Hot Carl #44
Almost literally nothing you wrote is accurate.
BRICS are NOT using Tether, that is bollocks.
Nixon did NOT steal the world’s gold – he was actually closing the stable door after most of the US’ gold had left.
Your concepts of currency and debt are equally not based on any form of reality or reason.
A hard currency is not a “positive value” currency – it is simply an invitation to deflation. The US underwent a financial crash almost literally every 15 years between the Civil War and the formation of the Federal Reserve – and it was all hard currency in that period.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:51 utc | 47

Please someone give ten examples of multinationals flooding (I assume that means at least billions) the US with investments so we can all take a closer look.
Yes, asking is lazy, but since someone already knows… 🙂

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 19:53 utc | 48

@ LoveDonbass – In all honesty I have not 100 percent written off Alex Krainer’s theory the dotard is playing some sort of sophisticated 3D chess game. Probably 95 percent though. He makes a very compelling case (see Nima and Alex discussion yesterday). What holds me back from believing it is his theory is predicated on two things.
1) Trump is NOT a moron.
2) His unorthodox slights of hand are going to fake out the “deep state”.
Those are two real whoppers to believe.

Posted by: chunga | Aug 2 2025 19:56 utc | 49

Basically, tariffs hinder trade. Today’s global trade level is very harmful to the environment. Ergo – tariffs are positive because they slow down the destruction of human life resources.
Globalisation in reverse gear will be accompanied by economic crises from which countless people will suffer. On the other hand, ecological tipping points are at least within reach. Once they are reached and passed, life will become much, much more unpleasant for the whole of humanity (not to mention most other life forms).

Posted by: Zack15 | Aug 2 2025 19:58 utc | 50

Why would China reduce ties with Iran?
They wouldn’t. China seeks out competent, stable countries to ally with, and to trade with. Iran is stable; it’s been under extreme, acute pressure from U.S. 45 years, and kept it all together. Also anchored the anti-Zionist front in the mid-East; no small feat.
Geopolitically, it’d be hard to find a better-situated country to ally with. Russia and China didn’t pick Iran by accident.
No, I see China and Iran and Russia getting along quite well in the decades to come. It would not surprise me to see Iran eclipse India in the BRICS economic powerhouse sweepstakes, even though Iran has a tenth of India’s population.
OK, that may have been a bit of a stretcher. 10X population is a pretty big advantage.
==== And on to the tariffs thing. ======
So C1ue, now that the tariff wall is up, and it seems like it pretty much is, except for scuffling with secondary tariffs. The main barriers and the main revenue streams are pretty well set, would you say?
B points to the commotion of uncertainty, Trump fires the BLS guy for reporting … something. Was he reporting truth or fiction? That was a highly questionable action, shows weakness in key judgement and character aspects.
Let’s cut through the smoke. What evidence are you seeing of re-shoring? I’m watching the industrial buildings investment metric; it zoomed up 3X from 2020 to 2024, is not growing in 2025. But it’s stable at a level that’s 3X what it was in 2020. Went from about $70 bil annually to around $20Bil annually if I recall correctly.
What are you – or any other Barflies – watching as indexes of re-shoring? I’m not seeing it here in mid-Atlantic U.S.; what we’re getting is lots of data centers. Lots.
Not much else.
What are you seeing? Barflies, pls chime in if you’ve got info.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Aug 2 2025 19:59 utc | 51

>>> “Yes, asking is lazy…”
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 19:53 utc | 48
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It is, yes. As you seek out the data, recommend you review foreign capital investment over time, and changes year over year.
The data is readily available. No sign of interest in such data here, however.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 20:00 utc | 52

Btw if the US wants to ___export more___ (because, you know; deficits) then the tariffs aren’t going to help; they don’t automagically make things produced in the US competitive.
And if they don’t really care about that then compare the economics of scale for the US vs. the world; a clear loss.
But sure no fact actually matters and everything is going to be shiny-shiny-shiny, good for you/them!
Notice the US has spent roughly 80 years becoming as noncompetitive as they are right now and back then many of their competitors were filled with smoking ruins.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:03 utc | 53

>>> “Btw if the US wants to ___export more___ (because, you know; deficits) then the tariffs aren’t going to help; they don’t automagically make things produced in the US competitive.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:03 utc | 53
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The tarriffed want to export to the US. That’s the prize. They still can, but many would rather invest in the US than export to it.
Exports may come, but that’s a secondary outcome. Jobs, strategic industry onshore, slowing the cashflow offshore, these are the primary.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 20:12 utc | 54

@Sunny Runny Burger #53
The US doesn’t need to make anything competitive in the world markets – it only needs to make things competitive in its own domestic market.
That’s EXACTLY what mercantilism policies do: tariffs on imports and subsidies on the development of internal manufacturing.
Equally, your nonsense about US competitiveness is precisely that: nonsense. The US took over the mantle of world’s largest manufacturing power from the UK. It was over a period specifically including McKinley’s term: before the Civil War until World War 1.
And the US did so behind a tariff barrier.
Unlike Mercouris and other people though, I do not actually agree that the US had a “coherent manufacturing policy” in that era. For one thing, the US Federal government was very tiny compared to the economy back then. The US federal budget as a percentage of US GDP was something like 2% in that era vs. the 23%+ today. And so the USG simply had no money or tools – legislative or judicial – to do what the CPC has been doing in China.
But it did have tariffs…

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 20:17 utc | 55

“seer” ( Aug 2 2025 20:00 utc | 52 ):
Hehe but you beat me by being even lazier when you respond with something that isn’t what I asked for! I wanted ten big billion deals announced and glorified and paraded around “American” style just like the him-ness wants everything to be, not overcooked numbers in some pdf or ticker tape (the non-parade kind).
I bow to your supreme laziness you slacker! 😀

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:17 utc | 56

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:17 utc | 56
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No, I’d say your laziness tops all. The data is readily available. You should educate yourself.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 20:21 utc | 57

@ c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:38 utc | 40 // 42 // 46
thanks for your various responses here.. if an important part of the usa oligarch was responsible for doing the off shoring in the first place, why would they now be interested in bringing it back?? or is it more a case of different members of the oligarch class in the usa, or using the usa, who think it is now to their advantage to bring back manufacturing to the usa?
i understand the basic principles involved, but i am not certain that the basic ideas are going to work, and i do think there are a number of areas of uncertainty to all this.. while trump is a part of this, he is not the whole reason for uncertainty.. i remain open minded and adopt the idea that seeing is believing… if this strategy of putting tariffs works out for the usa, the usa can be happy.. the bullying aspect of trumps is more of a personal signature that might motivate MNCs to explore other options, but in the final analysis, it all boils down to making money, regardless of the corruption involved… so – we’ll see how it works out.. i have no first hand examples to offer because i live in canada.. i know a lot of canucks are voicing their lack of appreciation for trumps tariffs, but not sure that really matters – again what is the big picture? canada seems to matter very little and i would be the first to acknowledge this.. however rome wasn’t built in a day and neither with the usa if it wants to get back to a more favourable independent manufacturing position, not dependent on a huge trade imbalance.. good luck with trump at the helm!!

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 20:28 utc | 58

How can it be nonsense when the US needs tariffs to __try__ to be competitive?
Or are you saying they’re simply leeching?

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:29 utc | 59

@Tom Pfotzer #51
LOL – you really expect magic things to happen in 5 months?
And furthermore, to happen when the MNCs and the globalists and the mainstream media and what not are still actively trying to prevent Trump from doing his tariff thing via judicial lawfare, attempts to stir up resistance via mainstream media agitation and what not?
Granted, this will never stop but it is clear that they still think they can win…and maybe they can.
I’ve never said that tariffs are a magic bullet or that Trump is going to succeed in reshoring.
What I have said is that I have yet to see anything even slightly credible from any other President in the past 20 years.
Biden’s CHIPS act and IRA and what not are monstrosities that do nothing but pad useless (in actual everyday terms) industries.
The CHIPS act is nothing more or less than Intel’s lobbying attempt to have the USG make up Intel’s own manifestly failed experiment with changing its business model by no longer building out fab capacity. With or without the CHIPS act, CPUs no longer matter because the productivity gains from new CPUs – outside of AI and gaming – are zero.
And you should already know my view on LLM AI…
Equally, the IRA is failed because of its double down on Net Zero in the face of post COVID lower energy prices. Trump is only putting the bullet in the head to put that industry out of its misery – it was not doing well even with said massive subsidies.
I am a little sympathetic to Doomberg’s comment that this policy turnaround is unfair, but not very given that this is the precise same shit sandwich handed out to US industry in general for the past 30 years and for sectors like coal in direct juxtaposition with alternative energy.
As for reshoring: as I have written in previous posts – reshoring is going to be from the US equivalent of the Mittelstadt: the medium sized US businesses that will benefit from tariffs and tariff uncertainty – and the success of these endeavors is what will force the MNCs to build US production to compete…or get pushed down in market share in the US.
We are not talking about nVidia GPUs from Taiwan or solar panels from China – we are talking about paper – printing/packaging, and screws, and spatulas, and glass as for beer mugs, and rubber and the thousands of other things that we Americans use every day.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 20:30 utc | 60

Thanks for the laughs “seer” 🙂

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:31 utc | 61

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 19:46 utc | 46
China imports commodities because it exports manufactured items.
That doesn’t mean China depends for its walfare on the raw materials that Japan needs.
China is a territory of 8,000,000 square km, leaving aside the Tibet. They have all the resources to live out the World and be self-sufficient. Just, the USA has.
There are countries that can be self-sufficient. Russia, China, USA, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia and some African states.
Europe can’t be self-sufficient anytime in its development because it doesn’t have resources. England is an island, like Japan, that has struggled all its existence to make of the commerce the vital thing.
If you cut the routes of distribution of goods and services, every one will have to reconsider its area of influence.
That’s why America is talking so much, but returning to the old conservative real politics: the Hegemon can’t deal with all of this mess.
There will be war all over the planet, but just focused in the interest areas. China is one of that areas, because is proclived to be vulnerable given its dependent manufacturing economy.
Enough.

Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 20:36 utc | 62

@james #58
From what I have seen and read – the offshoring was not some unanimous decision by the oligarchs/globalists made in some secret smoke filled room and then carried out by their minions. This is not how Western oligarchy functions.
What happened is that one or two specific companies in specific industries pushed for policies with Clinton to directly benefit themselves. Their success was picked up by other MNCs and put into plans given the lack of pushback normally accompanying this type of activity – note that there were huge popular movements against foreign imports like cars in the 1970s.
Again: the fecklessness of US politicians on all sides in that era is what let this happen.
If a reshoring is going to occur, it will occur the same way: Some MNC will reshore and find out it works great or is forced to reshore to compete and keep its dominant market share in its product segments. Others will see that and will follow.
CEOs are not some magical, omniscient, ultracompetent group – they are sheep, just following different leaders than most folk.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 20:37 utc | 63

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:31 utc | 61
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I wish I could say that you’ve provided anything to be thankful for, but you’ve provided nothing of value.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 20:40 utc | 64

@Esophagus #62
China has to import food and energy. These are not negotiable.
As for commodities: China has to import a lot just for its own infrastructure buildup.
#1 in oil imports
#1 in natural gas imports
#1 in iron ore imports
#1 in refined copper imports
#1 in aluminum imports
The list where China is the largest importer is probably hundreds of pages long.
Yes, some of this is for exports but a lot of it is not.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 20:43 utc | 65

Good blog b, and good discussion.
I was under the impression that the MAGA strategy was to create a wall around the U.S. in order to give it time, in isolation, to rebuild its failing economy/society, and eventually re-emerge as one of the poles of the multi-polar world order.
And the first couple of months of Trump’s presidency appeared to confirm this impression:
– Create a physical wall at the borders – Check
– Create a tariff wall – Check (Although the implementation seems to be poorly thought out)
– Dismantle the Globalist Elite Deep State – Check
However, sometime in the spring it seems that Trump decided that he was ‘Emperor of the World’ rather than U.S. President. Since then his policies have become increasingly schizophrenic: trying to make the U.S. the center of the world, and at the same time trying to isolate the U.S., trying to use the same policies, tariffs, monetary policy, etc., to achieve these diametrically opposed objectives.
Under Globalist Elite Deep State rule, the U.S., as an economy and society, has been declining for the last 50 years. The MAGA agenda was to try to begin the rebuilding before complete collapse. However, with Trump’s schizophrenia, he may indeed accelerate the collapse. The question is whether will anyone be able to pick up the pieces.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Aug 2 2025 20:43 utc | 66

Ah, all the bajillion little things that have almost zero profit margin unless when produced at truly massive scales…
I see.
Well there is a chalk factory in the US, I know that, makes good chalk. They use it for their 8-ball thing and not snooker. No one else uses it, they probably don’t export.
Okay, I think I’m done here at least for tonight, I “lost” 😀
Enjoy your paperclips everyone!

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 2 2025 20:43 utc | 67

Post WWI the bankrupt, exhausted UK tried constructing a system of Imperial Preference and a Sterling Area to try and slow down the decline of the empire.
Trump is iterating toward something similar with Trumpian Tariffs and an Almighty Dollar Zone.
The outcome will be similar too as the colonies revolt and breakaway and a new Dollar-free currency zone emerges.
When empires die history rhymes.

Posted by: ChatNPC | Aug 2 2025 20:45 utc | 68

It seems the USD is going through the roof against all other currencies. It’s the last thing Trump and his regime wants.

Posted by: WMG | Aug 2 2025 20:49 utc | 69

1. The speculators on the copper trade have nothing to cry about their attempt at arbitrage. They got beaten back at the manipulative attempts and they damn well deserve it.
2. China can punish the usa just as much, if not more, than the other way round. Just like they hit microsoft with reverse accusations of their own (microsoft were also forced to back in india, else they face a court ruling one of their top 3 (?) foreign economies.
3. COTUS is a rubber-stamp body. They’re not going to do anything against POTUS.
We had the 90’s unilateralism around the world creating the worst, most unsustainable and fluctuant bubbles in economic history in just 3 decades. Socio-economic polarity was magnified everywhere since then. Now when the usa-led west [economic] unilateralism implodes (as the eu practically has), it’ll only be a good thing. Won’t be stable like the pre-90s, but it certainly can’t be worse. Here’s to that great day on the horizon!

Posted by: Sal | Aug 2 2025 20:59 utc | 70

>>> “It seems the USD is going through the roof against all other currencies. It’s the last thing Trump and his regime wants.” <<< Posted by: WMG | Aug 2 2025 20:49 utc | 69 . . . That's likely the biggest governor on these trade policies. It could hit hard, not in the near term, but longterm. Running $2-3T in yearly deficits will bite then.

Posted by: seer | Aug 2 2025 20:59 utc | 71

The very revival and then expansion of the world economy steadily undermined the dominance of the United States. This quantitative decline, extending over decades, has now led …

… inexorably to military conflict.

Over and over. Of couarse one commodity that America has had over that period was military force and the lack of compunction against using it.

Posted by: Laurence | Aug 2 2025 21:02 utc | 72

Long-term capital investment in manufacturing will only happen if it doesn’t reduce the quarterly bonus…
It‘s a weird kind of ‘Prime Directive’, quarterly bonus must be made above everything else, the figures must be fudged as necessary.
“Fiduciary duty” and all that jazz…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Aug 2 2025 21:12 utc | 73

@ c1ue | Aug 2 2025 20:37 utc | 63
nixon was the one who opened up the connection to china as memory serves.. this would have been the beginning of the transfer of manufacturing to china for greater MNC profits, by removing the costs of wages and etc. in the usa and etc.. sure, some MNC would have been keen to see this happen as they are all driven by profit, but it was the politicians that facilitated it, just as the politicians facilitate whatever it is that the corporations want.. it is politicians via the legalized form of bribery ( lobbying ) that goes on between these corps and politicans, which is coincidentally all still in place with no sign of it going away any time soon! in fact, since the 70’s much more has happened to favour the corporations, the financial, military and energy corps in particular.. whether the usa changes from a FIRE sector system – (FIRE = finance, insurance, real estate) into a manufacturing one – remains to be seen.. it is not what i have come to know of the usa and i am sure these same areas of profit will not want to go without..
but i would like to take up an idea that @ dh-mtl | Aug 2 2025 20:43 utc | 66 touches on which is this.. why is it trump is so hostile towards BRICs actually trading with one another outside the us$ system of things?? could it be that so much of the usa’s position financially speaking is dependent on sanctioning and tell others how to behave, or that they are not behaving properly when in fact it is the usa which will suffer the consequences of its trade sanctions and tariff agenda?? i think it is quite possible that the usa will continue in a decline that seems all but apparent to most, and i don’t want to come across as an McEntarfer type ( i will leave it to our local stats person who shall remain unmaned, lol), or anyone else who is providing stats that might jeopardize trumps grip on reality.. my observations on life in canada and the usa, when i travel, is the level of financial inequality is rising, not decreasing and it has been this way for some time.. this is a very different economic environment then back in the 70’s before this offshoring all started to take off in earnest..
thanks for your comments and @ dh-mtl and others too..

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 21:46 utc | 74

It seems the USD is going through the roof against all other currencies. It’s the last thing Trump and his regime wants.
Posted by: WMG | Aug 2 2025 20:49 utc | 69
Is this true or rubbish? Can’t find any other reference to it.

Posted by: Ray | Aug 2 2025 21:49 utc | 75

@3 Ahenobarbus. “US Imperialism has seen an objective decline since 2007.” I would argue objective decline began in the early to mid ‘70’s. I worked in the US steel industry then, and I could see disinvestment and decline in that industry with my own eyes. At that time, I did not recognize what I saw as overall decline of US as a whole….

Posted by: mjh | Aug 2 2025 21:51 utc | 76

Ohhh dear. You are such an economic imbecile.
Trump WANTS instability in global trade. That is the point!
What you should ask yourself is why YOU shill for stable global trade on behalf of globalist owned businesses!
Put them to the sword.
Then everything will be just fine.
You dont win rigged games by playing by the rules of those who rigged them.

Posted by: Stu | Aug 2 2025 22:05 utc | 77

Could any European country do that?
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:43 utc | 14
Hungary?
When Europe works well, you have two, three dozen countries all trying to find something which works, each coming up with something different. And as soon as one has found a solution, everybody else copies that solution, with small adaptations.

Posted by: Passerby | Aug 2 2025 22:08 utc | 78

https://www.rt.com/news/622414-republicans-trump-lada-photo/

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2025 22:11 utc | 79

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 20:43 utc | 65
Have you been any time in China?
Because I’ve been in New York, 3 times and if you can’t catch a fucking taxi, indeed at the noon, it’s disgusting because all the city smells lime a a bunch of garbage. All over the city are mess and garbage. The metro and the bus is a joke. All the city smells like garbage. A shithole of 8,000,000 citizens.
Visit Shanghai and smell fresh air and the difference between blah blah blah and the facts.
Get America first and get the World out of your messianic democracy:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QRjEMbHXM4Q&time_continue=2&source_ve_path=NzY3NTg&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fsmoothiex12.blogspot.com%2F

Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 22:25 utc | 80

“Two days ago those who had invested (or speculated) in U.S. copper took a hard hit:”
There are two sides to every contract, so for everyone that lost in the futures, someone else gained, especially if they had advanced knowledge of what was coming.
For decades we’ve seen a concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Trump’s tariffs roiling the markets seems like just another way of achieving that aim. Basically, if your plans for global hegemony are failing, then plan B is to rule over a smaller empire, and the way to do that is to pull up the drawbridge and control everything within your domain.

Posted by: ebear | Aug 2 2025 22:36 utc | 81

@8 “They are trying to boost themselves for the final reckoning with the core BRICS: China/Russia/Iran/N Korea.”
North Korea is not a BRICS member

Posted by: yarpos | Aug 2 2025 22:38 utc | 82

Medvedev:
Trump shouldn’t think that the video archive of his past immoralities is only in Mossad’s hands.

https://x.com/Middle_Eastern0/status/1951699827961807151

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 2 2025 22:39 utc | 83

@8 “They are trying to boost themselves for the final reckoning with the core BRICS: China/Russia/Iran/N Korea.”
North Korea is not a BRICS member
Posted by: yarpos | Aug 2 2025 22:38 utc | 82
What side do you think they’ll fight on, little yarpos?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 22:40 utc | 84

@ james – The official GOP account on X STILL has that up. A picture of the loudmouthed new yorker, proud MAGA peacock, standing in front of a Soviet made Lada. With the caption “The One Big Beautiful bill will drive the return of the great American car.”

Posted by: chunga | Aug 2 2025 22:40 utc | 85

Posted by: Stu | Aug 2 2025 22:05 utc | 77
b posts & us imbeciles debate. All invective deployed down here.

Posted by: Laurence | Aug 2 2025 22:41 utc | 86

Some here and that includes Clue1 in particular, and most of the high tariff people see the world as it was in 1965, not as it is today.
Now do not get me wrong, I support tariffs if well targeted to industrial growth and I had thought that Trump might deliver rationally on these. He has not and uncertainty is always a killer of economic growth.
Now the first area where Trump and many on this site are wrong is that the world has changed. In the post war era, the USA was a large and very rich society. The rest of the world was in chaos. The USA with a large and wealthy society had a ready market for its manufacturing. While exports were nice they were the cream on top when US industries could be successful based on their own internal market. Here in Australia this idea was drummed into us, because while we too had a wealthy population it was small and the term “lack of economies of scale” was a mantra spouted whenever we wanted to support Australian industry.
However that has all changed. The USA no longer is the only large wealthy consumer market. China, with its huge and now wealthy population has the economy of scale that dwarfs that of the USA, so that the idea that US can again be the worlds manufacturing giant selling to the world has disappeared. India with an even larger population is also emerging, and although there is much poverty the elites middle class is still so large as to make locally based manufacturing competitive. Indonesia is chasing the USA in size and also has a growing wealthy elite. To add to that the other rapidly developing nations – Vietnam, Brazil, Mexico have large markets for locally made goods. What this means is that each of these nations have the economies of scale to make manufacturing viable, and unlike the situation post WWII they have a large and growing wealthy consumerist middle class. However since they are still on the low edge of wages they will almost always be able to undercut the USA in terms of prices.
A second area where I challenge the assumptions of the USA based commentators, is that the USA has the expertise. This is a fundamentally racist assumption, that ignores the obvious ie the technological superiority of China and indeed India (when it comes to maths). The USA (and other western nations like Australia) are coasting by by importing engineers and maths people from Iran, India, Eastern Europe or China but this cannot last. As these nations grow in wealth, these guys will return home (or at least the supply will dry up).

Posted by: watcher | Aug 2 2025 22:42 utc | 87

Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 22:25 utc | 80
POS troll here. Don’t touch unless you want his stink on you forever.
Change that handle, tits. It’s stale.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 22:42 utc | 88

b posts & us imbeciles debate. All invective deployed down here.
Posted by: Laurence | Aug 2 2025 22:41 utc | 86
Speak for yourself, troll. Why are you here, genius?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 22:44 utc | 89

@3 Ahenobarbus. “US Imperialism has seen an objective decline since 2007.” I would argue objective decline began in the early to mid ‘70’s. I worked in the US steel industry then, and I could see disinvestment and decline in that industry with my own eyes. At that time, I did not recognize what I saw as overall decline of US as a whole….
Posted by: mjh | Aug 2 2025 21:51 utc | 76
Yes, the good standard. You’re right technically. That was the beginning of the quantitative movement toward economic collapse. 2007 was the beginning of the terminal phase.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 22:47 utc | 90

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 22:44 utc | 89
Isn’t Laurence on a “Do no feed” list?

Posted by: lex talionis | Aug 2 2025 22:50 utc | 91

Why do you think China would dump Iran? I know the nationalism of the core is always an impediment, but under pressure, fast friendships are forged.
Nonetheless, if nationalist EU regimes tied themselves tightly to China/Russia they could likely withstand the pressure from the US. Could any European country do that?
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 17:43 utc | 14
Yeesh. Look, it’s fine to be idealistic, but when you think of most nations having “friendships” you’re bound to be disappointed. Iran is technically part of the Muslim ummah with the Arab autocracies, but they’ve never been stupid enough to think that translates into lasting support. China buys Iranian oil and is perfectly happy to help them against Israel, but not at a major risk to China.
As for the European nations- don’t fall into the No True Scotsman fallacy. The nationalist impulse in Eastern Europe is mostly against the Soviets and Russia. In Western Europe, you’re more likely to get a Meloni or Le Pen than an Orban. But that’s fine. Weakening the European Commission will mitigate some of the aggression against Russia and provide future opportunities.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Aug 2 2025 22:51 utc | 92

@james #74
Nixon reopening relations with China – he had nothing to do with the mass offshoring that started later. It was, in fact, certainly later than 1984 because I visited China for the first time that year. The hotel in ChongQing that the tour group stayed in was literally empty – we were the only people there. China still had its dual currency then – one version for internal use and the other, only available from exchange of foreign currency and which was what you needed to buy imported things like refrigerators.
If there is a single culprit, it is Bill Clinton. It was Bill Clinton that allowed China into the WTO despite China not having to follow any of the WTO entry requirements.
Yes, it was a Republican Congress but BRC had a consistent pattern of globalist leanings: NAFTA being the most notable.
As for Trump being “King of the World”: this is again conflating US foreign policy with US domestic policy.
Once again: Trump has not crossed any of the notable red lines regarding Ukraine (Biden sized arms and/or money packages or US troops on the ground), Iran (US going to war with Iran a la Desert Storm), open military confrontation with China (more Bidenesque arms packages and rhetoric). The secondary sanctions on Russia is a new one but one more pitting US domestic policy vs. foreign policy.
On the domestic front: Trump is winning. Judicial blockages have largely been destroyed – not all, but the core foundation of state courts blocking national policy on the basis of single individual plaintiffs is dead. Trump’s budget has passed, notably including extension of his 2016 tax cuts, huge immigration/deportation funding, oil leases in the Gulf of America/Alaska, woke rollback.
Grieved posted another interesting example in the other thread: the confirmation of Bove to the 3rd circuit court. This is notable not only because Bove has never been a judge before, but also because Bondi froze out the ABA from the entire DOJ process. Bove was confirmed 50-49 – meaning any Republican dissension would have killed the confirmation. To me, this is yet another piece of evidence that Trump is letting the Senate neocons play in foreign policy, within limits, so long as Trump gets full support for his domestic agenda.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 22:51 utc | 93

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 2 2025 22:44 utc | 89
Return to your inane cubicle, obnoxious. Why do you appear here to write unsubstantiated heatred posts?
Do not intoxicate, please.

Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 22:52 utc | 94

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 2 2025 22:59 utc | 197
Because you say so?
There’s no comment from your part in which there’s no a tik for tak. Always an attribution. You think and feel with a sin upon the heart of every one.
What a load over your mind.
Engage sex to relax the obsession. Whith legal matures, darling.

Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 23:17 utc | 95

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 2 2025 22:51 utc | 93
Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 22:25 utc | 80
Clueless is just basically anti China with very coloured Glasses/likely blinders. Very clear he has never been to China in the last 10 years. Go to any Chinese supermarket and see that practically all stable unprocessed food is grown in China. China no longer depends on fish catches from open ocean trawling but is actually a fishery exporter due to their massive offshore fish farming industry.
This is a Cambridge study on 20 years of China’s engagement with WTO and performance.
“The year 2021 marked the 20th anniversary of China’s accession to the World Trade Organization (2001), an event that has stimulated the unprecedented integration of the world’s largest transitional economy into the rules-based multilateral trading system. Since its entry, China has benefited significantly from enhanced trade flows made possible by its WTO membership, becoming the largest trader in goods and the second largest trader in services in the global economy today. Beijing’s efforts to implement its WTO accession commitments have generated profound changes in its domestic regulatory framework in the areas of trade and beyond. At the same time, China’s involvement in various WTO activities such as trade negotiations and dispute settlement has also changed the power dynamics within the WTO and presented unparalleled challenges to the functioning of the organization due to both the size of its economy and its unique economic model.”
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/china-and-the-wto/introduction/BC985ED328A74F3019E6AF63130BD030

Posted by: Surferket | Aug 2 2025 23:26 utc | 96

Esophagus is Laurence.
These socks always give themselves away.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 2 2025 23:30 utc | 97

Here’s China’s reply to clueless’ use of US’ and related puppets anti China accusations of non WTO compliance.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202110/1237592.shtml
How come clueless don’t talk about India and WTO compliances?

Posted by: Surferket | Aug 2 2025 23:31 utc | 98

I did a ctrl-F and so far not one single use of “TDS” smear in this new Trump thread. I was surprised by that.

Posted by: ThouShalt | Aug 2 2025 23:44 utc | 99

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 2 2025 23:30 utc | 97
I apologize.
You are not a pharisee.
You are a sadducee.
In any case, guard your constant sins for you.
I will try to be without your digestive apparatus.

Posted by: Esophagus | Aug 2 2025 23:55 utc | 100