Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 30, 2025
Vietnam – 50 Years Since The End Of The War

The liberation/fall of Saigon on April 30 1975 marked the end of the Vietnam War. I was in my teens in those days and had followed the war by reading, in German, various weekly magazines. It found it fascinating and abhorrent. The reporting was not pro-American. But neither was it pro-Vietnam. It in fact often failed to depict the Vietnamese side of the war.

Today Vietnam marked the 50th anniversary of the 'Day of the Liberation of the South and National Reunification' with a parade (vid).

The Trump administration, in a very childish gesture, has ordered U.S. diplomats in Vietnam not to attend the ceremonies.

The iconic picture of the emergency evacuation of the last U.S. personnel from Saigon was shot on April 29 1975.

The war in Ukraine is the first drone war – the war in Vietnam was the first helicopter war. The U.S. deployed nearly 12,000 choppers. Some 5,000 were shot down. I remember that nearly every magazine story I had read was accompanied by a picture of helicopters – flying or crashed on the ground. The late Colonel Pat Lang had a remarkable story to tell about a failed operation in Vietnam. Helicopter played a large role in it.

An early frequent commenter at Moon of Alabama, anna missed – also known as Jack Chevalier, had been a U.S. soldier in Vietnam. When we were discussing the war in Iraq he often mentioned the reality on the ground, as he had experienced it. Jack was an artist. He has died four years ago.

Years before he had sent me one of his pictures. It is an oil painting on a thick piece of raw wood with small glass pellets sprinkled into it.

notebook #1

2008
9"x 16"x 1"
oil paint and glass pellets on wood
by anna missed
bigger

The slab with the chopper is now hanging in my living room. It is a daily reminder of the horrors of war. I myself, luckily, never had to experience them. Looking at the picture I would neither want to be (in) the helicopter nor the person on ground holding the hand up against(?) it.

War is always abhorrent. But for the Vietnamese it was necessary to wage it for the independence and unity of their country.

They paid a very high price but did win and for that I congratulate them.

Comments

“The real issue is, Communism (which I do not approve of) is a bulwark against Capitalist oligarchy….”
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 30 2025 21:43 utc | 93
I simply disagree with that assertion. Communism, with its numerous examples of brutality, persecution, and genocide, have managed to make capitalist oligharchies look good in comparison, at least during the latter half of the 20th century. That is why so many people tried to get out of communist-ruled countries by any means available, and very few people tried to get in.
Hard to imagine a more effective method to make capitalist oligarchy the preferable choice, than to make it look like communism is the best “bulwark” against it. It isn’t. It tends to serve the opposite purpose, imo.

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 22:37 utc | 101

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 22:37 utc | 101
RE: hard to make *this* capitalist system look good
<< Brutality. persecution & genocide are playing out every hour of every day as a capitalistic system supports and enables a fellow democracy, Israel, unwaveringly.

Posted by: steel_porcupine | Apr 30 2025 22:42 utc | 102

I have kind of always felt that Vietnam to the us anyways was an inventory management thing. As in got rid of ww2 and Korean war munitions. Making room for what crystallized the MIC.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Apr 30 2025 22:46 utc | 103

“Brutality. persecution & genocide are playing out every hour of every day as a capitalistic system supports and enables a fellow democracy, Israel, unwaveringly.”
Posted by: steel_porcupine | Apr 30 2025 22:42 utc | 102
I agree completely. I disagree that communism is all about “liberation” and is the best “bulwark” against parasitical, oligarchical capitalism. And I also disagree with the assertion that no Americans have any right to criticize Israel or the proxy war in Ukraine.

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 22:52 utc | 104

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 22:37 utc | 101
###########
Capitalism is what China has. America is not capitalist.
America is oligarchic with sufficient plundering (via colonization, coercion, debt, and money printing) to maintain a high standard of living for the hoi polloi.
Chinese workers and companies actually compete, and the state hosts a Hunger Games of competition, culling elites who act against the public interest.
In America, the “dream” is to get a slice of rent-seeking/monopoly via patent, copyright, or government contract.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 30 2025 23:08 utc | 105

Posted by: wagelaborer | Apr 30 2025 19:32 utc | 66
Colin Powell was a white nigger.
Black skin, white mask.
Cf. Franz Fanon
And of course Trump never participated. Like all rich people and their sons. Rich people = white.
https://vietfactcheck.org/2020/09/15/did-trump-dodge-the-vietnam-war-draft/
The French did the same: they sent to Vietnam many people from their colonies.

Posted by: Naive | Apr 30 2025 23:23 utc | 106

This might be considered off-topic, but I think it is at least tangentially on-topic. Ted Kaczynski (The Unabomber), in his manifesto which was published in its entirety by the New York Times in 1996 (link below), showed some amazing insights into the psychology of modern leftists. Here is an example:

15. Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist’s real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.
16. Words like “self-confidence,” “self-reliance,” “initiative,” “enterprise,” “optimism,” etc., play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve everyone’s problems for them, satisfy everyone’s needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.
17. Art forms that appeal to modern leftish intellectuals tend to focus on sordidness, defeat and despair, or else they take an orgiastic tone, throwing off rational control as if there were no hope of accomplishing anything through rational calculation and all that was left was to immerse oneself in the sensations of the moment.
18. Modern leftish philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftish philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e., failed, inferior). The leftist’s feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the credit or blame for an individual’s ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is “inferior” it is not his fault, but society’s, because he has not been brought up properly.

Yes, he was a convicted anti-technology “terrorist” bomber. But the manifesto is pretty interesting.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/national/unabom-manifesto-1.html

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 23:29 utc | 107

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 22:37 utc | 101
Pure outright lies. Communists never genocided. Fucking liar.

Posted by: Naive | Apr 30 2025 23:29 utc | 108

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 30 2025 22:27 utc | 100
Consider yourself lucky. They might come bearing another Nugan Hand thing. Interesting story, that one.

Posted by: lex talionis | Apr 30 2025 23:38 utc | 109

And now the praise of a real terrorist who used the same method as the ukronazis nowadays.

Posted by: Naive | Apr 30 2025 23:40 utc | 110

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 30 2025 23:08 utc | 105
One must learn to distinguish between industrial capitalism and financial capitalism, per Michael Hudson (and others). It is a huge difference, and Psychohistorian, for one, completely understands this I bet.

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 23:46 utc | 111

re JohnH | Apr 30 2025 17:49 utc | 36 who pointed out:“Sadly, the youth who opposed the war have mostly avoided protest of the Empire’s forever wars and pointless and futile misadventures.”
Sadly your statement goes to the heart of the problems amerikans have with creating a real functioning and internally rational culture. When young amerikans were confronted with a policy which demanded that they not the wealthy & powerful old shits who had determined that the NLF (National Liberation Front) was surplus to the requirements, young amerikans who could die or be maimed in this process of obliterating the NLF and all who supported it would do the job, young amerikans protested.
Those protests in typically amerikan hypocrisy included many reproductions of the image of Kim Phuc fleeing a napalm attack which Don posted at #46 plus ‘hearings’ into amerikan war crimes. Most young amerikans opposed this war and highlighted the war crimes amerika was committing right up until the point where the old shits gave in and promised that no more young amerikans would be drafted or mobilised into going to Vietnam.
The anti-war protests faded away shortly after that and all talk of amerikan war crimes was hushed up. End of a story that shows amerikans will not tolerate anyone impinging on their ‘freedoms’ but when it comes to anyone else in the world, particularly unwhite types far, far away, they couldn’t give two fucks.
We see exactly the same phenomenon today where the maga mob want to ‘stop the killing in Ukraine’ yet happily boost assistance to the Gaza genocide and lobby DC for attacks on Iran.
ps
Any whinging from the usual ‘racism, what racism?’ nitwits will be ignored.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Apr 30 2025 23:59 utc | 112

“And now the praise of a real terrorist who used the same method as the ukronazis nowadays.”
Posted by: Naive | Apr 30 2025 23:40 utc | 110
Do you also have an opinion about Luigi Mangione? Is it just the methods you are conncerned about? (rhetorical question, you are sometimes dumber than vargas).

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 0:11 utc | 113

@Spectator | Apr 30 2025 23:29 utc | 107
Really? Are you sh1t-stirring now?

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 1 2025 0:22 utc | 114

One must learn to distinguish between industrial capitalism and financial capitalism, per Michael Hudson (and others).
Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 23:46 utc | 111
#########
No.
Distinctions without differences.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | May 1 2025 0:23 utc | 115

By some measures (most billionaires), Ho Chi Minh City is now among the top 10 wealthiest cities in the world. I wonder what it would look like if South Vietnam had won.

Posted by: Sentient | May 1 2025 0:35 utc | 116

And it still continues, and still relevant to the continued Cold War bovine excrement and McCarthyism !
Below are the lyrics of one of the most salient and poignant songs ever written and sung in public (in some cases to some very astonished faces).
Thank you Country Joe (McDonald) and the Fish. You will always be a legend in my heart.
Lyrics to Vietnam Song
Intro Spoken
Give me an “F! …”F”! give me a “U”! …”U”!
Give me a “C”! …”C” Give me a “K”! …”K”!
WHATS THAT SPELL? …”FUCK!” (x5)
Well come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again,
he got himself in a terrible jam, way down yonder in Vietnam,
put down your books and pick up a gun, we’re gunna have a whole lotta fun.
CHORUS
and its 1,2,3 what are we fightin for?
don’t ask me i don’t give a damn, the next stop is Vietnam,
and its 5,6,7 open up the pearly gates. Well there aint no time to wonder why…WHOPEE we’re all gunna die.
now come on wall street don’t be slow, why man this’s war a-go-go,
there’s plenty good money to be made, supplyin’ the army with the tools of the trade,
just hope and pray that when they drop the bomb, they drop it on the Vietcong.
CHORUS
now come on generals lets move fast, your big chance is here at last.
nite you go out and get those reds cuz the only good commie is one thats dead,
you know that peace can only be won, when you blow em all to kingdom come.
CHORUS
(spoken)- listen people i dont know you expect to ever stop the war if you cant sing any better than that… theres about 300,000 of you fuc|ers out there.. i want you to start singing..
CHORUS
now come on mothers throughout the land, pack your boys off to vietnam,
come on fathers don’t hesitate, send your sons off before its too late,
be the first one on your block, to have your boy come home in a box
CHORUS
Country Joe McDonald

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 0:35 utc | 117

Posted by: Debsisdead | Apr 30 2025 23:59 utc | 112
That post is a good example of this section of the Unabomber Manifesto:

21. Leftists may claim that their activism is motivated by compassion or by moral principles, and moral principle does play a role for the leftist of the oversocialized type. But compassion and moral principle cannot be the main motives for leftist activism. Hostility is too prominent a component of leftist behavior; so is the drive for power. Moreover, much leftist behavior is not rationally calculated to be of benefit to the people whom the leftists claim to be trying to help. For example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black people, does it make sense to demand affirmative action in hostile or dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive to take a diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal and symbolic concessions to white people who think that affirmative action discriminates against them. But leftist activists do not take such an approach because it would not satisfy their emotional needs. Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems serve as an excuse for them to express their own hostility and frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm black people, because the activists’ hostile attitude toward the white majority tends to intensify race hatred.

The hostility is shown by your consistent use of “Amerikan” instead of the correct “American” spelling. Not 100% sure why you think that will help you to make your points. Probably because you think it will illicit imagery of the KU Klux Klan. You should just go ahead and spell it “AmeriKKKa” everytime, if that is the case. Just speculating about that tic of yours.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 0:38 utc | 118

Posted by: Spectator | Apr 30 2025 22:37 utc | 101
I can almost sense the coming lecture on the “holodomor”…

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 0:42 utc | 119

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 0:38 utc | 118
Quoting the Unabomber’s critique of “the left”? Seriously? LOL
Why not throw in the El Paso shooter’s manifesto?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 0:44 utc | 120

Better run through the jungle, fortunate son, ‘cause there’s a bad moon on the rise.

Posted by: Joe Turner | May 1 2025 0:48 utc | 121

“Really? Are you sh1t-stirring now?”
Posted by: Don Firineach | May 1 2025 0:22 utc | 114
What do you mean exactly by “shit-stirring”? If by that you mean arguing points and sharing some links in good faith that are in opposition to an echo-chamber opinion, it is probably true.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 0:53 utc | 122

There are some great comments here, many USians still having trouble coping with big losses to Vietnam.
Do you remember the war the Americans won, was it Grenada or just their Civil War.
One American niece just visited Paris and learned their heroic war of liberation was actually a foreign backed insurgency.
I am of course teasing, the Americans did successfully genocide the Philippines.

Posted by: Polli | May 1 2025 0:54 utc | 123

Check out Youtube’s Luna Oi for an oral history of Vietnam’s history.

Posted by: Thistlebreath | May 1 2025 0:54 utc | 124

So far as I can tell, the difference between the “great” years of American (or European) manufacturing and the emergence and domination of financial capitalism, is one of vigorous state regulation [on behalf of people or the environment], or lack thereof.
Make no mistake, the industrial titans of the day fought back hard and fast whenever the state – on behalf of people – deigned to intrude on their “freedoms” to collude, gouge consumers and mistreat workers and the environment. But eventually, people won some concessions in the form of regulations. Not the case with finance capital, which to an extent even greater than industrialists, has infiltrated and captured the government and most media [formerly an occasional bastion of criticism].
The only difference is regulation. If finance capital (more honestly referred to as rentier capitalism or Lords of Debt Peonage) was regulated to the extent that industrial capital was kept in check, we’d probably be having a totally different conversation. China has done well in that regard, and though experiencing growing pains, in the industrial sector too. The masters of the universe on Wall Street and in The City will brook no such thing. Michael Hudson was mentioned, and it brings to mind his frequent discussion of the Jubilees of old and other similar debt cancelations.
That said, without strong state intervention, the trendline for industrial capitalism would have been the exact same. Unchecked monopolistic growth built on its own forms of usury. There is nothing inherently “better” about one or the other from the perspective of people (consumers, workers, those who value clean air and water, etc.) Free market capitalism of either sort implies no checks on “the market” and both lead to the same dismal end.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 0:55 utc | 125

I remember when LBJ came to Australia visiting Sydney and being driven through the city’s streets in a cavalcade like a hero. Bob Askin the NSW State Liberal Party premier sitting next to LBJ in the open convertible car yelled at the anti-Vietnam war demonstrators who threw themselves in the pathway of the car:
“Runover the bastards”.
But it helped provoke a win at a later federal election that saw prime minister Gough Whitlam elected into office. He pulled Australia out of Vietnam with a whopping mandate and furthermore challenged the US over its secret bases in Australia. At the same time he sowed the seeds for his later dismissal from government for which many still claim was the covert work of the CIA.
More than 50 years later it still gives me a warm glow in my heart to think of Whitlam. I would say he was Australia’s greatest ever prime minister and statesman, who had the guts to call a spade a spade and put an end to Australia’s involvement in the atrocious carnage that was Vietnam. I’m still hoping to see another leader like that come forward instead of the jelly fish we have today.

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 0:56 utc | 126

“I can almost sense the coming lecture on the “holodomor”…
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 0:42 utc | 119
No, you will never see that coming from me. I think it is probably a made-up bullshit “atrocity” from Ukie fake Nazis and other Russophobes. But I do think that the forced, ideologically motivated, and rapid “collectivization” of agriculture under early Soviet communism contributed to the famine that was not limited to Ukraine.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 1:03 utc | 127

“Quoting the Unabomber’s critique of “the left”? Seriously? LOL”
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 0:44 utc | 120
I think I have seen you vociferously supporting Luigi here. Anyway, I recall that when the Unabomber was doing his mail-bombing thing against the coming tech oligarchy in the 1990s, his “terrorism” was always presented by the MSM as crazy lefty terrorism. Not right-wing terrorism.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 1:10 utc | 128

The count done by Vietnam itself from recollection of lost relatives tallied 3 million deaths. It is said more bombs were dropped in Vietnam than during the totality of WWII. Not to mention Agent Orange and the horrors of the CIA’s Operation Phoenix. Unexploded ordnance in Laos is being cleaned up as such a slow rate with the paucity of funding that it will not be fully removed until the end of this current century.
“The Quiet American” and the “Ugly American” were two books (and later films) that are more than suggestive of both the horrors and covert tactics of the US, and/or why they failed. But the same methodology continues in many countries today as we have seen, and continue to see, in Ukraine.
The more things change the more they are the same, but we are due for a big change now.

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 1:10 utc | 129

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 1:10 utc | 128
I may have mentioned Luigi once? The only thing I’m comfortable asserting on that is “his” alleged manifesto looks like it was written by a cop.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 1:18 utc | 130

Militarily, the US could have won, but to what end? Supporting corrupt dictatorships in the South?
The White House dictated hat could be bombed when and where. The US could have interdicted the rail traffic from China, stopped the use of Haiphong harbor and stopped all traffic on the Ho chi Minh Trail. LBJ, Snake McNamara and Henry Kissinger conducted the war from the White House.
George H. Bush let the military plan and execute a war, ‘Desert Storm’.
An oil painting of a Vietnam era US Destroyer hangs in my office as a reminder of the USS Maddox incident. I hit the newspaper room in the university library and read the foreign newspapers, including ‘Neues Deutschland’ from the DDR. IF Stone’s Weekly was a must read. -b reminds me of IF Stone, probably the highest compliment in some journalistic circles.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | May 1 2025 1:22 utc | 131

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 1:03 utc | 127
Yes. It was focus grouped by a bunch of nazoid expat Ukrainians in Canada sometime during either Carter or Reagan, I think. They even have a “victims of communism” museum or something up there.
Sure, some of the accelerated collectivization and even a little junk science contributed to the famine, which was mainly driven by an unfortunate drought and poor crop yields.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 1:27 utc | 132

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 1:18 utc | 130
It is interesting the difference of how big media has presented Luigi vs how they presented Unabomber. Also big diffeence in how they present the terrorism against Tesla vehicles and their owners, many of whom purchased their EV vehicles before Musk became a huge lightning rod and a totemic proxy for “Trump” and hiis policies. I see that stuff is all dying down now, though.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 1:33 utc | 133

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 1:27 utc | 132
US agriculture has also undergone massive “forced collectivization”, albeit a little slower and less violent. The way it is done here is by using financial methods, not at literal gunpoint by the NKVD or Cheka. Just make the farmers default on loans via market manipulations, then just call the takings of the lands from the family farmers “foreclosure”. All very legal and non-violent (but still enforced at gunpoint). It is a kinder, gentler collectivization.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 1:52 utc | 134

@Tom_Q_Collins | Thu, 01 May 2025 00:55:00 GMT | 125

The only difference is regulation. If finance capital …

No. Consider the reverse argument: the freedom and happiness of workers would also be a function of regulation. While in fact both groups act on their individual motives, and regulations may (dis-)incentivize those, but this does not control them.
This issue runs deep for a discussion. The “continental” (Germanic) idea of justice is different from this kind of thinking. It doesn’t aim to guide acceptable behavior through outside control, but attempts to establish conditions for an intrinsic judgement which satisfies moral notions and understanding.

Posted by: persiflo | May 1 2025 1:55 utc | 135

The only thing I’m comfortable asserting on that is “his” alleged manifesto looks like it was written by a cop.

As does Kaczynski’s, or so I just thought.

Posted by: persiflo | May 1 2025 1:56 utc | 136

Posted by: persiflo | May 1 2025 1:55 utc | 135
We’re way off topic now, but I don’t think I was clear enough or you misunderstood me. I was primarily focused on the difference in regulation on industrial capitalism vs. finance capitalism in the US, although I did reference Europe briefly and parenthetically.
But yes. Eventually industrial capital was regulated to a degree sufficient to balance things out, and what was lost in the way of jobs to low wage countries was made up for to a much larger degree than now by the increase in living standards and environmental protections. Those were in large part funded by higher progressive and effective taxation which enabled a less-than-optimal, but better-than-nothing social safety net and decent public education system. The 40hr work week, the EPA, OSHA type programs to enhance worker safety; real tangible things.
Finance was, after the great depression/crashes of the 20s and 30s, also regulated, but as we got into the 70s, 80s and 90s those gave way to a new Wild West in the FIRE sector free from meaningful regulations (or consequences) and increasingly reliant on new financial (debt and leverage) instruments which get quite complex, and computerization making transactions lightning quick. Those two things alone are ‘passive’ impediments to regulation because a) it takes very smart people to understand and police them and b) there’s way more money to be made on “the Street” than in some lowly government regulator’s office.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 2:12 utc | 137

Posted by: persiflo | May 1 2025 1:55 utc | 135
Maybe we should take this to the O/T.
No. Consider the reverse argument: the freedom and happiness of workers would also be a function of regulation. While in fact both groups act on their individual motives, and regulations may (dis-)incentivize those, but this does not control them.
Isn’t relevant to my original point. When I speak of regulation, I mean checks on power (big money, monopolies, trusts), not checks on individual behaviors. Whereas workers are actual people, corporate entities are not, regardless of what this or that law might allow. That in itself is one of the biggest problems we face, IMO.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 2:17 utc | 138

“As does Kaczynski’s, or so I just thought.”
Posted by: persiflo | May 1 2025 1:56 utc | 136
I see the point you are attempting to make here, but in no way can an average cop write like Kaczynski did in his manifesto. No, that was done by a seer, maybe even a genius, right or wrong. I haven’t read the El Paso shooter’s manifesto, probably just a bunch of babbling nonsense.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 2:18 utc | 139

“Maybe we should take this to the O/T.”
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 2:17 utc | 138
Nah, that would just dilute it. There is no “O/T”. This whole topic of calling the Vietnamese communists “liberators” is off-topic as far as I am concerned. On-topic, today right now, is Ukraine and Middle East and Trump pretending to be “peace President”. Vietnam is kind of a “Look! Squirrel” distraction. Looking back 55 years into the past to the glory days when the media-approved “anti-war” protests actually seemed to have some effect on US policy. Many of those same people who were “anti-war” protesters in the late 1960s and early 1970s are now fully on-board with the Ukraine proxy war against Russia and the Israel genocide.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 2:32 utc | 140

50th Anniversary of the End of the Vietnam War
by Michael K. Smith / April 30th, 2025
After two decades of savage U.S. efforts to impose imperial control over South Vietnam, the effort collapsed in April 1975.
Columns of refugees and routed troops packed the roads twisting out of the hills and rubber plantations toward the marshy flatlands around Saigon. Barefoot villagers, band of soldiers with their boots rotting off, lost children wailing for their parents, parents screaming for their children, wounded men caked with dried blood and filthy bandages, creeping trucks, buses, and herds of water buffalo, oxcarts lumbering along on wooden wheels, all paraded past the wreckage of burned-out tanks and scattered corpses rotting in the fields by the roadside, fleeing the advancing bombs and shellfire announcing Ho Chi Minh’s imminent victory.
At the U.S. Embassy, a desperate crowd of Vietnamese interpreters, army leaders, bartenders, colonial bureaucrats, and stool pigeons rushed the gates waving letters from American employers, stateside lovers, or distant American acquaintances who used to know someone in their extended family.
Saigon was no more.
To General Thieu and his henchmen, President Ford offered sanctuary in the United States. To the young Americans who had not been able to bring themselves to kill for such gangsters, he offered the choice of permanent exile from the U.S. or imprisonment. On the Vietnamese people, he imposed a trade embargo, a veto on their entry into the United Nations, and a refusal to negotiate the unresolved issues of the war.
The imperialist credo was thus fulfilled: those who have been arbitrarily punished are punished anew.
After two decades of Western terror, retributive deaths were near zero. The much-predicted Communist bloodbath did not materialize, and Hanoi created nothing worse than re-education camps for those who collaborated with the U.S. in killing millions of their fellow Vietnamese.
This remarkable display of restraint passed unnoticed in the U.S. media, which preferred to denounce Communist indoctrination methods. Those whom Washington employed to engage in wholesale torture and massacre of their countrymen were portrayed as innocent victims forced to endure the agony of political lectures.
The hundreds of thousands of orphans, junkies, prostitutes, and maimed survivors the U.S. left in its wake, whom the Vietnamese somehow had to rehabilitate as they struggled to overcome a shattered economy, devastated ecosystem, and demolished social order, were ignored and quickly forgotten.
As for the meaning of it all, the New York Times remained utterly clueless:
“There are those Americans who believe that the war to preserve a non-Communist, independent South Vietnam could have been waged differently. There are other Americans who believe that a viable, non-Communist South Vietnam was always a myth … A decade of fierce polemics has failed to resolve the quarrel.”
Of course, while the war raged, Americans surged into the streets in record numbers to protest that the U.S. had no business meddling in the internal politics of Vietnam, regardless of the prospects for “success.” This position, reiterated endlessly at rallies, protest marches, and teach-ins, was never heard in official circles, nor was it ever given a hearing on the editorial pages of the New York Times.
U.S. hands off other countries.
To the Times‘ editors, these words were incomprehensible.
U.S. military and government leaders were no more insightful. A U.S. Air Force general said that the important lesson of the war was that “We could have won the war if political factors had not entered in,” perhaps a reference to the failure to use nuclear weapons, which both the Eisenhower and Nixon administrations had considered doing. Secretary of State Dean Rusk blamed the “loss” of Vietnam on the “impatience” of the American people, adding that a future Vietnam-style war would require censorship. “You can’t fight a war on television,” he lamented. General Maxwell Taylor contended that success required the banning of dissent, counseling that any president would “be well advised to silence future critics by executive order.”
With millions killed and Indochina in ruins, President Ford urged Americans to forget. “The lessons of the past,” he implausibly advised, “have already been learned … and we should have our focus on the future.
https://dissidentvoice.org/2025/04/50th-anniversary-of-the-end-of-the-vietnam-war/

Posted by: Menz | May 1 2025 2:40 utc | 141

Can anyone here imagine a new “Jane Fonda” who is against the proxy war against Russia and is also against Israel’s war against Palestinians, being heavily promoted by big media and Hollywood like Jane Fonda was? Jane Fonda didn’t suffer for her “anti-war” activism.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 2:50 utc | 142

… a seer, maybe even a genius, right or wrong.
Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 2:18 utc | 139
Yes. Sh1t-stirring. Napalm with the fu€ked up unibomber in the morning on a glorious anniversary for the sovereign people of Vietnam.

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 1 2025 2:52 utc | 143

… This whole topic of calling the Vietnamese communists “liberators” is off-topic as far as I am concerned.
Spectator | May 1 2025 2:32 utc | 140
Clearly you have some emotional angst with the topic under discussion ….
… humbly suggest, and with all due respect, that you kindly fu€k off to another thread, or another bar, if the topic so disturbs you – you poor dear. Does it hurt?

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 1 2025 2:58 utc | 144

The Vietnamese refer to the war as The American War.
Which is interesting, as the French desperately tried to hold on to their former colony, but it proved too difficult with them because the Brits wage a brutal war of counter-insurgency after WW2, using Japanese PoWs to engage in brutal actions including torture and executions on the Viet communist freedom fighters.
But it is America’s war.
Too bad Mr. Trump cannot reflect on history before doubling down on Ukraine and Greater Israel.

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | May 1 2025 3:02 utc | 145

The Vietnamese refer to the war as The American War.
Which is interesting, as the French desperately tried to hold on to their former colony, but it proved too difficult with them because the Brits wage a brutal war of counter-insurgency after WW2, using Japanese PoWs to engage in brutal actions including torture and executions on the Viet communist freedom fighters.
But it is America’s war.
Too bad Mr. Trump cannot reflect on history before doubling down on Ukraine and Greater Israel.

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | May 1 2025 3:03 utc | 146

Many of those same people who were “anti-war” protesters in the late 1960s and early 1970s are now fully on-board with the Ukraine proxy war against Russia and the Israel genocide.
Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 2:32 utc | 140
One David Horowitz comes to mind.
https://scheerpost.com/2025/04/30/the-curious-case-of-the-late-david-horowitz/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 3:12 utc | 147

“Given America’s many genocides and war crimes, do Americans have the stature to render judgment over any Communist country?
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 30 2025 21:43 utc | 93
——————–
Agreed
I’d say do Americans have any business lecturing’ any country, communist or otherwise. ?
Good for you Ld , one against 100 maga !

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 3:14 utc | 148

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 2:18 utc | 139
“I see the point you are attempting to make here”
I don’t. What was the point?
“but in no way can an average cop write like Kaczynski did in his manifesto.”
Perhaps, not the AVERAGE cop, but I’m sure some could. Regardless, what was the point persiflo was trying to make? That the Unabomber might have been some sort of CIA psyop or agent provocateur????

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 3:16 utc | 149

Spectator

I simply disagree with that assertion. Communism, with its numerous examples of brutality, persecution, and genocide, have managed to make capitalist oligharchies look good in comparison, at least during the latter half of the 20th century.

Even if I concede your point just for the sake of argument.
Western imperialism, genocides of indigenous tribes preceded communism and continues to this very day, Ukraine, Yemen, Gaza, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghan.
The eight nations alliance , er, G7, are currently stoking ww3 in SCS, TW, ECS, Kashmir…
Where’r those damned commies ?

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 3:20 utc | 150

“… humbly suggest, and with all due respect, that you kindly fu€k off to another thread, or another bar, if the topic so disturbs you – you poor dear. Does it hurt?”
Posted by: Don Firineach | May 1 2025 2:58 utc | 144
With all due respect, I have to just say “no”. It is you and your ilk with your overly emotional responses and the substitution of ad hominem for rational discussion.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 3:21 utc | 151

“That the Unabomber might have been some sort of CIA psyop or agent provocateur????”
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 3:16 utc | 149
That could be, I wouldn’t discount it.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 3:28 utc | 152

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 3:20 utc | 151
Thanks for your response. I don’t cheerlead for oligarchical imperialism. I say that putting up communism as the “bulwark” against it is self-evidently counter-productive. Thosenwhonsay so are engaging in black-white ideological stuff, like the many posters here who accuse anyone of “TDS” and “loving Biden and Harris” if they don’t bend down and lick the fungus-encrusted toes of Trump.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 3:38 utc | 153

Vietnam – key Socio-Economic Statistics
National Statistics Office of Vietnam
https://www.gso.gov.vn/en/homepage/

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 1 2025 3:43 utc | 154

I see that a few of the apologists for the Vietnamese traitors who collaborated with the Americans (the source of many of the “boat people”) have decided to throw in their lies. The end of a decades long war to throw off both the French and the Americans would always have been a brutal one for the collaborators. We see the same for the Hmong who settled in the West, fleeing the rough justice that awaited them for being the murderous echelons of the Americans.
I did a piece on the utter propagandist presentation at my university by the Vietnamese and Hmong etc. that settled in Canada. Winston Smiths Hard At Work In Canada: Whitewashing Colonial Violence in South East Asia. Just as bad as the Ukrainian Banderists who settled in Canada.

And who were all those people fleeing South Vietnam? Probably not the Vietnamese masses that were so happy to rid themselves of colonial domination, first of France and then of the United States. Could those refugees have been members of the vile US puppet regime in the south, perhaps some were soldiers in an army well known for widespread torture and human rights offences, perhaps some were from the much feared security services? In Europe after WW2 some of those types of people were summarily executed, some put on trial and executed and others treated extremely harshly.
Why would the Vietnamese after a multi-decade struggle against colonial domination not be expected to react in the same way to such traitors? It would have been expected to have “sent people to re-education camps, implemented class and anti-Chinese persecution [China went to war with Vietnam in 1979], and executed thousands”. So, many of these Vietnamese immigrants to Canada may well have committed vile crimes, been part of the puppet regime, or just greatly benefitted from that regime. Not as bad perhaps as the Ukrainian Nazi immigrants, but probably with their own share of war criminals and servants of empire; all very anti-communist of course.
How many of the refugees from Cambodia and Laos were also the tools of empire, perhaps involved in the atrocities committed by US supported forces, including the Hmong? Many others of course may simply be refugees from the colossal violence unleashed upon them by the US military machine. Refugees from impacts of US empire.

It was the US that created the conditions for Pol Pot to succeed in Cambodia, and the Vietnamese army that put an end to the “killing fields”, a fact of course never mentioned in that famous movie about the period.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 3:44 utc | 155

@Spectator | May 1 2025 2:32 utc | 140
Be quiet with your nonsense.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 3:45 utc | 156

Spectator @ 101:

“… Communism, with its numerous examples of brutality, persecution, and genocide, have managed to make capitalist oligharchies look good in comparison, at least during the latter half of the 20th century. That is why so many people tried to get out of communist-ruled countries by any means available, and very few people tried to get in …”

Capitalist oligarchies in their countries of origin in western Europe during the later half of the 20th century do look good compared to China (1950s – 1960s) and the Soviet Union / Eastern Europe (1945 to 1989) until you cast a wider net and start including under the category of capitalist oligarchies the Indian subcontinent to 1947, Kenya (Mau Mau uprising) and the Malayan Peninsula (Malayan Emergency) during the 1950s, during their resistance to British rule: and the Algerian war of independence against French rule in the late 1950s / early 1960s.
Concentration camps in Kenya under British colonial rule:
Kenya: the shameful truth about British colonial abuse and how it was covered up
Concentration camps in (then) Malaya under British colonial rule:
Chinese new villages were British-designed concentration camps – Kua Kia Soong
Caught between the crossfire: the grassroots experiences of violence during the Malayan Emergency of 1948-60
Also, to this day, I don’t think anyone knows why former German chancellor Angela Merkel’s family (the Kastners) voluntarily migrated from West Germany (where she was born) to East Germany when she was a baby. The story is that her father accepted a position as pastor to a Christian community in a country supposedly committed to atheism to the extent of persecuting both Protestant and Roman Catholic churches and driving many church congregations underground. Your guess is as good as mine.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | May 1 2025 3:52 utc | 157

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 3:38 utc | 154
————————————
Regarding…

Communism have managed to make capitalist oligharchies look good in comparison

I tend to agree with Arundhati Roy

“Exposing Western hypocrisy – how much more exposed can they be? Which decent human being on Earth harbours any illusions about it? These are people whose histories are spongy with the blood of others. Colonialism, apartheid, slavery, ethnic cleansing, germ warfare, chemical weapons – they virtually invented it all. They have plundered nations, snuffed out civilisations, exterminated entire populations. They stand on the world’s stage stark naked but entirely unembarrassed, because they know that they have more money, more food and bigger bombs than anybody else” (“The Cost of Living”

https://www.converge.org.nz/abc/prsp25.htm

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 3:54 utc | 158

I have no information if the Unibomber was an asset/agent/patsy.
All I know is I no no longer “believe” any storyline published in Controlled Media.
What I have observed is the increasingly widespread proliferation of “manifestos” penned {?} by various malcontents, dissenters, and Enemies of the State. It’s a global phenomenon, with even the NZ mosque shooter (Brenton Tarrant) and similarly leaving manifestos for posterity.
Intact passports being passé in these post 9/11 days.
And a variation on the theme, is to announce a manifesto exists, (but it can’t be released), while tracts of this “Trust Me Bro” document are published by Controlled Media to background and bedrock the narrative.
Later, if the original narrative needs updates, revision or repudiation, the Trust Me Bro manifesto can be either disputed, discredited or disappeared.
List of Manifestos of mass killers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manifestos_of_mass_killers

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 1 2025 3:58 utc | 159

I’d say since Vietnam we can see three major phases of how the main stream media has become progressively degenerate and driven by disinformation.
1.
During Vietnam many photos and critical articles by some honest and capable journalists seeped out which helped to swing public opinion against the horrors of the unjust war started through McCarthyism.
2.
By the George W. Bush era the MS media was already spinning propagandist bullshit to the public on behalf of deep state and a neocon-driven government. The government also learned to ’embed’ the press into the military and censor what could be said through military-controlled briefings in Iraq and Afghanistan. Images of the winners like the famous “Mission Accomplished” photos were pushed to the front. Lies and images concerning weapons of mass destruction (mass deception) where used to persuade the public through fear. The internet era expanded on the use of propaganda.
3. In the current era and especially since Ukraine, it is nothing but deep state propaganda, gaslighting, biased reporting, and lying on a grand scale with complete control of photographic imagery and little talk of actual humans actually dying or being injured has reached a zenith. It’s only tanks, aircraft and weapons that are destroyed, not human beings, especially civilians. The Russian view is entirely wiped from the media and lies are pedalled constantly. We shifted to ‘alternative facts’ under Trump’s first administration and Biden’s government and aligned media continued with the bullshit over Ukraine. Completely fabricated stories were circulated over Nord Stream I and II as well as stories concerning events in Bucha, Ukraine at the beginning of the war. The idea that Putin was a Russian imperialist wanting to conquer Europe has been pushed. Internet and social media have been completely censored and many people have been threatened, detained, harmed, and prosecuted for speaking the truth.

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 4:00 utc | 160

“Be quiet with your nonsense.”
Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 3:45 utc | 157
That’s the more polite way of saying “fuck off troll”. Lol.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:02 utc | 161

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 3:20 utc | 151

Western imperialism, genocides of indigenous tribes preceded communism and continues to this very day, Ukraine, Yemen, Gaza, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghan.
The eight nations alliance , er, G7, are currently stoking ww3 in SCS, TW, ECS, Kashmir…

Western imperialism even wages war on its own native populations as capital has transcended borders and gone global, digital, and universalist. Across the entire west, natives are flooded with foreign settlers and colonists, economies asset stripped and commodified, cultures altered and vilified, and minority castes installed in administrative and managerial posts.

Posted by: karlton | May 1 2025 4:04 utc | 162

@Posted by: Refinnejenna | May 1 2025 3:52 utc | 158
You seem to be one of those over-propagandized people who believe an utterly fake history of communist China and the Soviet Union created by Western propagandists. In the post-war period of the Soviet Union standards of living grew very rapidly, including the work needed to deal with the utter devastation of WW2. From 1949 onwards, Chinese life expectancy, literacy and numeracy leapt far ahead of India – which China outperformed throughout the post-WW2 decades. This was again in spite of the colossal devastation caused by decades of civil war and war against Japan. Also, a complete economic and financial embargo from the West, and continued Western aggression (Chinese troops and other help was critical to both the North Koreans and the Vietnamese).

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 4:04 utc | 163

US elites correctly deduced they could stop massive anti-war protests to all wars by ending draft lotteries. Protesters moved on to “the environment.”
On Dec. 1, 1969 a draft lottery was held. “This event determined the order of call for induction during calendar year 1970; that is, for registrants born between January 1, 1944, and December 31, 1950.”
“[US warmonger] Brzezinski was a virulent opponent of…any challenge to the existing capitalist order from the left. In 1968, during the mass protests against the Vietnam War, he wrote in the New Republic that students should be prevented from protesting by locking them up, adding that if the protests’ “leadership cannot be physically liquidated, it can at least be expelled from the country.”…
In August 1969 at Woodstock, Country Joe sang:
“1, 2, 3, what are we fightin’ for, don’t tell me I don’t give a damn, next stop is Vietnam.”…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Y0ekr-3So
In spring 1970 at Syracuse University the last 5 weeks of the semester were cancelled due to anti-war student “sit-ins.” I was a senior at the time. We were given “passes” to all our courses and allowed to graduate normally.

Posted by: susan mullen | May 1 2025 4:06 utc | 164

Roger Boyd @ 164:
I was being sarcastic in replying to Spectator @ 101, and limiting myself to challenging his argument.
I could have started banging on about Chile under Pinochet (brought into power in 1973 with the help of the CIA and blessings from Henry Kissinger) and the neoliberal economic experiments begun in that country in the 1970s that led to financial crisis in 1981 and discredited Pinochet’s government, so much so that for the rest of his presidency Pinochet was basically a lame duck.
I could add that numerous people fled Chile during that period – many came to Australia – and numerous others were also fleeing Argentina under similar military rule at the same time, some of those people coming to Australia as well.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | May 1 2025 4:17 utc | 165

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 4:04 utc | 164
I like it better when you talk about climate science, and you do it pretty well. When you give yourself up as an communist ideologue, it gives the deniers a point. The deniers have for long called the Green Agenda a Red Agenda in disguise.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:18 utc | 166

@Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:02 utc | 162
I do not consider you a troll, just a purveyor or utter nonsense. It is obvious that you have no accurate history of the causes of the Pol Pot regime (and the ending of the killing by the intervention of the communist Vietnamese army). Your purveying of Cold War Western propaganda about the Soviet Union and China, which is directly at odds with actual history. Your purveying of the delusional ravings of Kaczynski and your utter misunderstanding of actually existing socialism/communism.
If you were simply a troll I would call you one.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 4:18 utc | 167

@Posted by: Refinnejenna | May 1 2025 4:17 utc | 166
My apologies, it is late and my sarcasm monitor may be failing

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 4:20 utc | 168

Posted by: susan mullen | May 1 2025 4:06 utc | 165
Hi Susan
On my comment at 117 I pasted the words of Country Joe and Fish’s Vietnam song. In my view it was one of the most extraordinary protest songs ever sung in public.

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 4:20 utc | 169

@Exile | Apr 30 2025 16:01 utc | 19
Sure you can, you anti-semite!!!!

Posted by: jogesh99 | May 1 2025 4:26 utc | 170

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 4:18 utc | 168
“I do not consider you a troll, just a purveyor or utter nonsense.”
Well, that is the funniest compliment I have have ever received! Thank you. I think your political nonsense takes away from the power of your climate science posts. It shouldn’t, but it does.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:28 utc | 171

Posted by: karlton | May 1 2025 4:04 utc | 163
——————-
Poor ole maga junkies cheering for white’s manifest destiny, believing in blood is thicker than water.
For the ruling elites , there’r only two kind of people, useful assets, or useless eaters.
William BLum on Haiti

How would the US choose between a murdering regime and a dissenting priest ?
BUt what if the priest is a gawd damned leftie ?

Rings a bell ?
Jean Kirkpatrick on murdered American nuns..

those aint ordinary nuns, they are political activists

https://tinyurl.com/2b7z6ex9

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 4:30 utc | 172

@ Lysias | Apr 30 2025 20:02 utc | 75
Nah, that’s just a “famine” bro!

Posted by: jogesh99 | May 1 2025 4:32 utc | 173

Where oh where is the new Jane Fonda?

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:34 utc | 174

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 4:30 utc | 173
————
To make myself clear, NOT saying Karlton
is maga junkie !

Posted by: denk | May 1 2025 4:34 utc | 175

Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 3:44 utc | 156
Vietnamese “boat people”.
Indeed most were likely escaping retribution having been collaborators with the U$.
Picking up on my post earlier, where U$ troop Rest and *Recreation* transformed a once wealthy and genteel Sydney suburb to Ground Zero for organised crime and the opening up of large scale illicit drug importation into Australia…. The Vietnamese boat people / refugees also had a significant impact on Sydney.
Tens of thousands arrived in waves from South Vietnam and were settled in a low socioeconomic south-west Sydney suburb with limited support and sparse infrastructure.
The settlement of South Vietnamese refugees has a direct causation+correlation in the exponential explosion of the heroin trade in this and neighbouring localities; along with crime and the degradation of a low income but basically safe areas.
It’s not “racist” to note this.
It’s a statistical crime stats fact.
Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos were the CIA Golden Triangle of heroin cultivation. Australia, with its then relatively wealthy population (and wide open, vulnerable points of entry for shipments and smuggling) was placed on the CIA distribution map for illicit, profitable recreational substances.
Of course there were drugs and crime, stabbings, shootings, extortion and prostitution in Sydney before the Viet Nam war, but the blowback to Sydney from our dalliance as a dutiful deputy in the U$ wars of imperialism and profit caused real harm to the fabric of Sydney.
National Museum of Australia
§| Vietnamese refugees boat arrival
https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/vietnamese-refugees-boat-arrival
^ this piece states Australian authorities vetted refugees in camps in Hong Kong and other Asian countries. Who were given entry to Australia? What were their bonafides? How many were U$ collaborators and had connections with the U$ drug trade?????

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 1 2025 4:54 utc | 176

“I could have started banging on about Chile under Pinochet (brought into power in 1973 with the help of the CIA and blessings from Henry Kissinger) and the neoliberal economic experiments begun in that country in the 1970s that led to financial crisis in 1981 and discredited Pinochet’s government, so much so that for the rest of his presidency Pinochet was basically a lame duck.”
Posted by: Refinnejenna | May 1 2025 4:17 utc | 166
No, none of that would have in any way effectively countered what I have said on this thread. You are just acting like the people who accuse anyone who does not worship at the smelly feet of Donald Trump of having TDS. You think people.who aren’t communists must be supporters of Pinoche. Ridiculous.

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:55 utc | 177

I see loser Spectator is back trying to hijack threads….sad
From Xonhuanet

HO CHI MINH CITY, Vietnam, April 30 (Xinhua) — At the invitation of Vietnam’s Ministry of National Defense, the Guard of Honor of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) participated in a military parade here on Wednesday, celebrating Vietnam’s 50th anniversary of the liberation of the South and national reunification.
As the Chinese formation entered the parade ground, the Vietnamese audience rose to their feet and greeted them with enthusiastic applause.
“I was deeply impressed by the Chinese soldiers’ dignified appearance and movements. I feel proud of the comradeship and brotherhood between Vietnam and China,” said a Vietnamese audience Pham Thi Hue after the parade.
This marks the first time for the PLA’s Guard of Honor to be invited to participate in a military parade in Vietnam. Troops from the Vietnamese army, navy and air force, police forces, as well as foreign military formations participated in the parade.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 1 2025 5:30 utc | 178

“Where oh where is the new Jane Fonda?”
Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:34 utc | 175
Checking her ‘likes’ on social media…

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 5:56 utc | 179

I think your political nonsense takes away from the power of your climate science posts. It shouldn’t, but it does.
Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 4:28 utc | 172
What political posts? Roger comments on economics insofar as the intersection of politics and climate change, but rarely just politics. And even so, what specific “political” posts do you refer to?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 6:24 utc | 180

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 5:44 utc | 181
Could you just be honest for a second and tell us what other handles you’ve used in the past, or at least how many?
This is starting to look all too familiar.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 6:25 utc | 181

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 1 2025 3:58 utc | 160
What of the notion that numerous “manifestos” have been posted to the likes of 4chan or similar in the hours BEFORE whatever acts were carried out, and most often by familiar individuals in said communities, easily tied back to the eventual perps without any hint of government psyop involvement?
Is EVERY US mass shooter just a CIA/FBI psyop? To what end? Have guns been banned? Meaningfully controlled? Or are we just forbidden to insult Israel now?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 6:28 utc | 182

Posted by: Spectator | May 1 2025 6:07 utc | 183
I don’t think Mearsheimer or Sachs have had as many cosmetic surgeries, implants, and Botox injections either.

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 6:28 utc | 183

List of Manifestos of mass killers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manifestos_of_mass_killers
Posted by: Melaleuca | May 1 2025 3:58 utc | 160
LIST OF manifestos? LOL OK. Now where is the link to the actual (or alleged text of the) manifestos?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 6:31 utc | 184

Mass Killers?
No Netanyahu on the list

Posted by: George | May 1 2025 6:37 utc | 185

Hugh Thompson.

Posted by: Bagration | May 1 2025 7:11 utc | 186

Hugh Thompson.

Posted by: Bagration | May 1 2025 7:11 utc | 187

One f my most memorable moments in my journey to the dissident right is when it came to me that Ho Chi Minh had been the good guy.

Posted by: Diversity | May 1 2025 7:17 utc | 188

One of my most memorable moments in my journey to the dissident right is when it came to me that Ho Chi Minh had been the good guy.

Posted by: Diversity Heretic | May 1 2025 7:18 utc | 189

To #170, George, re: Country Joe Vietnam protest song from 1969:
Thanks for your comment, George. I was happy to see your post at 117 detailing Country Joe’s wonderful anti-Vietnam song. With a few slight changes the song could apply today and should be played around the clock. His was by far the best anti-war song of that time.

Posted by: susan mullen | May 1 2025 7:49 utc | 190

I am so surprised, or maybe not, about the ignorance of what is going on in Vietnam right now.
Did you see the parade?
Yes, those are Chinese Soldiers marching. Yes, and those are Vietnamese patriotic songs that they are singing too.
Unknown to the West, and apparently most of the bar-flies here, China played a MAJOR role in the Vietnam war against the United States, and it was the Chinese AA Flack teams that were shooting down all those American F-111, F-4, B-52s, and other period planes that were bombing Vietnam.
China and Vietnam are CLOSE. Much closer than the American “news” media would ever admit. Just look at the piles of agreements that both nations signed last month…
Anyways, the videos are worth a great look.
The Chinese videos are generally difficult to access, but you can see it in the attached youtube video. Well worth your time to watch.
118 Chinese troops arrive in Vietnam, preparing for Reunification Day grand parade
https://youtu.be/CjzvS6zL7yc
Chinese PLA invited to Vietnam military parade for 50th anniversary of national reunification
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0ZXAcRyPAq0?feature=share
The videos of the Chinese soldiers in the streets where the Vietnam ladies are showing “Husband, Husband” to the Chinese soldiers singing (in Vietnamese) the Glories of Ho Chi Men, is both charming and awe-inspiring.

Posted by: Rufus Arrrr | May 1 2025 8:05 utc | 191

@Spectator | Apr 30 2025 21:05 utc | 89
If I am not mistaken, I believe after the fall of Pol Pot in 1979 on the hand of the Vietnamese, he and some remnants of the Khmer Rouge leadership retracted to a sliver of land near the Thai border. The Khmer Rouge regime kept its international recognition for years after that, including from both China and the US (because the US didn’t ‘like’ the Vietnamese for obvious reasons). So the US and China agreed at that time.
In 2019 I visited the most important location of the Khmer Rouge, i.e. Angkor Wat just outside Siem Reap. I would encourage everyone who gets the chance to visit that place, it is the most fantastic site I have ever seen. The whole area is much bigger than ‘just’ Angkor Wat with its huge 200m wide 1.5×1.5 km rectangular moat. It is the size of a modern city with countless temples and ruins.
Official history says it was built some ~800 years ago, but I believe it has a background that is far, far older. I personally saw some peculiar ‘keystone cut’ stone details at Angkor Wat almost identical to similar ‘keystone cuts’ that a friend of mine from Peru found and photographed at Tiwanaku in Bolivia. Also, the hard stones of Angkor Wat is riddled with millions of holes, as if it has been subject to some unknown industrial process. The implication is that this area has a history that goes back many, many thousands of years, in a prior iteration of world wide ‘human civilization’.

Posted by: Norwegian | May 1 2025 8:52 utc | 192

@Spectator | May 1 2025 4:18 utc | 167

Posted by: Roger Boyd | May 1 2025 4:04 utc | 164
I like it better when you talk about climate science, and you do it pretty well. When you give yourself up as an communist ideologue, it gives the deniers a point. The deniers have for long called the Green Agenda a Red Agenda in disguise.

Roger is a decent political commentator, with a deep ideological foundation that you can agree or disagree with. However, discussing scientific questions from a deep ideological foundation is a mistake, because science does not care about ideologies.

Posted by: Norwegian | May 1 2025 9:31 utc | 193

No unified Vietnam nation existed until after the war … like most (maybe all) nations on Earth, unification is generally the result of successful violence and certainly the South Vietnamese did not want to be taken over by the North. We know this, because they voted for independence from the North.
The Viet Cong were already murderous and utterly ruthless long before they moved to take the South. They raised an army by killing anyone who opposed them, killing small business owners, killing people connected with the colonial French … a regime of fear and dread like most Communist armies.
The North Vietnamese revolution was similar to the French Revolution in the sense of killing, killing and more killing. One thing you can say is the final result was a very tough army made out of the survivors … that happened in both Napoleonic France and Communist Vietnam as well.
Should the USA have never meddled in this part of the world? Alternative history is speculative at best, but probably the key pivot in the whole Vietnam War was when the OSS (i.e. CIA) trained and equipped the initial revolutionary army led by Ho Chi Minh. Without that starting point, their thuggery might never have got off the ground … no one will ever know for sure, but the Viet Cong were really the original Taliban.
You do often wonder whether blowback is a bug or a feature. No doubt someone must have profited.

Posted by: Tel | May 1 2025 9:37 utc | 194

We know this, because they voted for independence from the North.
Posted by: Tel | May 1 2025 9:37 utc | 200
When?

Posted by: waynorinorway | May 1 2025 10:42 utc | 195

Pure outright lies. Communists never genocided. Fucking liar.
Posted by: Naive | Apr 30 2025 23:29 utc | 108
Really? I thought that the Khmer Rouge were communists and what they did is classified as Genocide.

Posted by: NoName | May 1 2025 10:57 utc | 196

As we’re doing a memory lane thing in this thread, and connected to asian history, I think this is not completely off-topic.
80 years ago 120.000 japanese descendants were in concentration camps, next time it might be 5 million chinese
25-40% of other americans would probably agree to that measure (now, before any serious propaganda moves), and two third of the future victims already feel it coming.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3308608/poll-finds-quarter-non-asian-americans-consider-chinese-americans-possible-threat?module=top_story&pgtype=homepage

Posted by: Newbie | May 1 2025 11:07 utc | 197

If anyone is curious, with plenty of spare time, RJ Rummel has various historical murder sprees documented with references and upper/lower estimates.
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
Both the Viet Cong and Khmer Rouge only reach the classification of “LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS” but overall there’s a lot of socialism on the leader board.
There’s also some discussion somewhere about the difficulties of a linear ranking when all sorts of factors are in play … but at least it kind of draws a line in the sand.

Posted by: Tel | May 1 2025 11:13 utc | 198

Let us not forget that the evil commie Khmer Rouge wouldn’t have risen to power in the first place without help from red commies Thatcher and Reagan.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2000/04/how-thatcher-gave-pol-pot-a-hand

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 1 2025 11:19 utc | 200