In the tariff blinky thread, a poster pushed back on barflies with rhetoric I distill here as: “If your opinion differs from that of someone richer than you, STFU.”

The rhetoric triggered a few understandable reactions. Thus far overlooked is that the rhetoric itself is not only self-serving but contributes at a micro level to the wealthy surrounding themselves with “yes men” (because the former wants their ego stroked and the latter want their favor), at macro level to the strengthening of the hold of a few over the many, to the dumbing down of society taught to simply agree with the upper class, and in turn to the observation that “wealth does not survive 3 generations”.

Posted by: I forgot | Apr 13 2025 14:09 utc | 1

thanks b...

i agree with the headline - why a temporary ceasefire in ukraine is pointless...

on the topic of israel-palestine - this is an impossible knot that the world has been given and some people seem to think destroying this is the only way forward.. they would be the zionists which appears to include trump and friends.. so now they want to silence any push back, criminalizing protests against israel and the zionists... trumps bullshit about freedom of speech and the press - he is really full of bs..

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 15:12 utc | 2

quote from the rada member on the strikes in sumy

"We cannot put up with the indifferent heads of some administrations who send out information about the meetings openly, and then remain in their positions - as has already happened several times.

We must learn faster, be more flexible, and purge the system of "scoops" and idiots. Otherwise, the innocent and defenseless will suffer.

All this does NOT diminish the crimes of the enemy, but lies diminish our ability to fight."

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 15:26 utc | 3

The Diesen article re idealogical fundamentalism is excellent. Of course, the narrative of the superior “west” over the barbaric/heathen/uncivilized “other” has been with us since the Greeks; but the decades since WW2 and esp the decades since the end of the Cold War seem to have exaggerated this tendency to infinity.

And of course, this narrative leads to a completely unreasonable sense of both power and vulnerability to the point where Nato is both seen as great and powerful and nevertheless Russia will conquer us if we don’t serve up more $$$ to the Complex. Astonishing how everything has that end result, no?

Posted by: Caliman | Apr 13 2025 15:35 utc | 4

We are grateful, b, for another week full of your careful chronicles! I'll just repeat an extract on this last day, remembering that it is also first day of the week to come:

"...We do not yet know (unless faith is knowledge) whether Hitler will retrace completely the mighty Napoleonic parabola, or whether he will succeed temporarily in his nightmare design of covering our planet with an Egyptian night. If he should fail, a new Tolstoy may arise, fifty years hence, to chronicle the vast drama of his rise and fall. If he should succeed, that new Tolstoy will not arise. For there will be no novelists and no poets. The humane and philosophic view of life from which supreme works of art spring will have been blotted out..."

[Clifton Fadiman, extract from his foreword to a new translation of Tolstoy's 'War and Peace', published in 1942]

And for the first day of the coming week -- Happy Palm Sunday to all! And to our best current chronicler here:

Many thanks!!

Posted by: juliania | Apr 13 2025 15:41 utc | 5

Some people say I shouldn't pay attention to Larry Johnson because he used to work with some bad people. You hear the same thing, from another corner, when it comes to Jeffrey Sachs. But whatever people used to do is only interesting if they make a habit of lying about it, while both Johnson and Sachs have been as honest as circumstances allow, imho. Meanwhile, what matters more than their past or the left/right pennant flying is: How accurate be their reports?

This is how Larry Johnson builds my trust: he files accurate reports. In this case, about what's going on with the Iran talks:

Trump is going to come under enormous pressure to add additional conditions to the proposal now on the table — e.g., elimination of Iran’s nuclear program, elimination of Iran’s missiles and/or an end to all support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. If the Zionist crowd succeeds in clubbing Witkoff like a baby seal, and Witkoff is forced to return to Oman with one or more of these “new” conditions, the Iranians will walk away and the possibility of a deal to prevent war will evaporate.

Seemingly, it hangs in the air at the moment, with Trump's half-assed, half-aborted trade-war and peace in Ukraine. A bit spookily calmish-before-whoknows, after a steady hailstorm of nonstop chaos.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 13 2025 15:55 utc | 6

Joe Caligula Biden was the choice of the Pharisee-type Zionists to complete the monstrosity of the Ukrainian Gambit, and ...

Donald Likud Trump is the candidate of the Sadducee-type Zionists to pressure Persia.

Of so many tragedies in recent years, the most difficult thing to understand is the blindness of the Russian ruling class: with a determined air defense of Damascus and Beirut, NATO would have sat down to negotiate.

Posted by: Simon | Apr 13 2025 16:02 utc | 7

Of so many tragedies in recent years, the most difficult thing to understand is the blindness of the Russian ruling class: with a determined air defense of Damascus and Beirut, NATO would have sat down to negotiate.

Simon | Sun, 13 Apr 2025 16:02:00 GMT | 7

You don't get to click an actual air defense on a virtual map, scroll for parameter adjust. Down on the ground, these things run on Diesel engines and grease. Putting a contract Mobik into the shrubs probably won't help. Just a guess from a layman here.

Posted by: persiflo | Apr 13 2025 16:28 utc | 8

The truth is that Vladimir Vladimirovich cordially received the director of the bloody Biblical Theme Park when he went to Moscow to renew the permit to bomb Syria.

The truth is that a Russian army plane with 12 crew members was shot down due to the usual attacks.

The truth is that Vladimir Vladimirovich preferred to sacrifice thousands of Russian soldiers rather than disturb the private hunting ground of the masters of the West.

Posted by: Simon | Apr 13 2025 16:46 utc | 9

Jeff Kay's piece says that the Manhattan Project in 1945 was interested in developing a truth serum from marijuana. Why would they have been interested in such a thing then? For interrogating suspected spies?

Posted by: Lysias | Apr 13 2025 17:03 utc | 10

Spelling should be Jeff Kaye.

Posted by: Lysias | Apr 13 2025 17:05 utc | 11

Thanks so much, b!

Posted by: Jeffrey Kaye | Apr 13 2025 17:12 utc | 12

Thanks so much, b!

Posted by: Jeffrey Kaye | Apr 13 2025 17:12 utc | 13

To Lysias at #10 -- Yes, I suspect the truth serum was supposed to be used to ferret out spies, double agents, etc. TD seems to have been used on Manhattan Project personnel. Here's what John Marks, who discovered the joint OSS/Manhattan Project program had to say about it in his book Search for the Manchurian Candidate:

"It is not clear why OSS turned to the bomb makers for help, except that, as one former Project official puts it, "Our secret was so great, I guess we were safer than anyone else." Apparently, top Project leaders, who went to incredible lengths to preserve security, saw no danger in trying out drugs on their personnel.

"The Manhattan Project supplied the first dozen test subjects, who were asked to swallow a concentrated, liquid form of marijuana that an American pharmaceutical company furnished in small glass vials."

Posted by: Jeffrey Kaye | Apr 13 2025 17:20 utc | 14

thanks b...

i agree with the headline - why a temporary ceasefire in ukraine is pointless...

on the topic of israel-palestine - this is an impossible knot that the world has been given and some people seem to think destroying this is the only way forward.. they would be the zionists which appears to include trump and friends.. so now they want to silence any push back, criminalizing protests against israel and the zionists... trumps bullshit about freedom of speech and the press - he is really full of bs..

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 15:12 utc | 2

You know, I read that article on why a ceasefire would be pointless and it only convinced me more that, as with every imperialist flashpoint, any negotiated settlement is impossible. The Imperialists are just too deluded. In the article itself Lieven argues that it's possible for the west to help Ukraine push back to force Russia to the table on more favorable terms! Frankly, if this is the "voice of reason" in the west on Ukraine, Russia will simply have to crush it on the battlefield. Period.

Unfortunately, the only thing that will bring the barking mad Imperialism down to earth again is a resounding defeat of their Nazi proxies.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Apr 13 2025 17:28 utc | 15

"Amid a fierce trade war with the US, China's General Administration of Customs has changed its rules of how the origin of imported chips must be classified, now deeming that the wafer fabrication location should be counted as the origin of chips shipped to the country. This rule exempts products from AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Intel, and other chipmakers who outsource wafer fabrication to Taiwanese companies from the punitive 125% tariff China now imposes on products from the U.S. However, this badly hurts Intel, Global Foundries, Texas Instruments, and chip designers who produce chips in America."

Another clever move by China, punishing any US based fabs with the 125% tariffs but not the Taiwanese based fabs. Just as the US is slapping tariffs on Taiwan and blackmailing it to move its fabs to the US. Displays an openness to ongoing economic relations and national unity (Taiwan is part of China) against the US Empire.

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/chinas-new-semiconductor-rule-spares-taiwan-fabs-punishes-intel-globalfoundries-and-texas-instruments

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Apr 13 2025 17:35 utc | 16

There is a new political party in Norway called "Fred og Rettferdighet" ("Peace and Justice") that is (if I have understood this correctly):
· Very pro-Palestine and highly aware of the genocide. They want the closure of the "Israeli" embassy in Norway, to ban all trade with "Israel", and remove any and all Norwegian investments.
· Against the US and NATO and blaming them for the war in (ex-)Ukraine.

Their web page (only in Norwegian) is at
https://partiet-for.no/

To me it looks like an almost perfect "MoA-party" :D

I would like to hear the views of the resident Norwegians here at MoA :)

Norway holds an election this year.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Apr 13 2025 17:46 utc | 17

@ Aleph_Null | Apr 13 2025 15:55 utc | 6

thanks for addressing that issue and making some discussion of it here aleph.. i appreciate it.. i share your viewpoint.. for me, holding people to the past when they have moved forward and shown other more rewarding sides to who they are is ''staying in the moment'' as opposed to being locked in the past.. if we are unable to move beyond the past, there is no hope for us.. i personally believe being in the moment and being receptive to new insights and etc - is the way forward... cheers...

@ Ahenobarbus | Apr 13 2025 17:28 utc | 15

thanks for articulating all that.. i share much the same view.. i didn't read the article - yet.. i am increasingly coming to this viewpoint that all wars are a type of 'class warfare' where the rich want to impose their agenda on the rest of us.. perhaps this is an integral aspect of capitalism, especially the negative side of capitalism, where wars are a way of making a lot of money, off the death and suffering of ordinary people that just wish to live in peace.. i imagine the vast majority of people on the planet want peace.. it is a small maniacal percent of people - typically craving power and money - probably most of them socio or psychopaths - that continue to make it very difficult for the rest of us... just how to address this? i don't know.. being conscious of this process is helpful though.. it is a good antidote to the endless propaganda we are exposed to... have a great weekend!

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 18:35 utc | 18

if we are unable to move beyond the past, there is no hope for us.. i personally believe being in the moment and being receptive to new insights and etc - is the way forward...

... says james, who is a jazz drummer speaking ... I recommend we listen up.

Posted by: persiflo | Apr 13 2025 18:41 utc | 19

thanks persiflo! i have a gig tonight in victoria playing jazz - yes, in the moment is essential to any spontaneous moment of creativity! i am doing a few different gigs later this week - blues jam, and new orleans r and b thingy too - different groups and musicians..

in response to the issue of a ceasefire and resolution to the russia-nato conflict, karl has a post with lavrovs views up which i am going to share here - hopefully it goes thru.. if you aren't signed up to karls substack - i recommend you do so!

https://karlof1.substack.com/p/lavrov-at-antalya-diplomatic-forum

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 18:58 utc | 20

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Apr 13 2025 17:28 utc | 15 and james and any who touch on negotiating with Empire.

To add to your points, Iran is foolish not to build or buy nuclear weapons and to negotiate with Uncle Scam. Any option available to them IS the Libya Option.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 13 2025 19:03 utc | 21

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 13 2025 19:03 utc | 21

############

The Persians are masters of negotiation. It's like the Russians leading the Americans on for several months now.

Uncle Sam is probably going to attack Iran no matter what, so it doesn't matter what they do, except as the leading Shia authority on the planet, the rejection of weapons of mass destruction has enormous soft power value.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 19:24 utc | 22

"..i imagine the vast majority of people on the planet want peace.. it is a small maniacal percent of people - typically craving power and money - probably most of them socio or psychopaths - that continue to make it very difficult for the rest of us... just how to address this? i don't know.. being conscious of this process is helpful though.. it is a good antidote to the endless propaganda we are exposed to... have a great weekend!

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 18:35 utc | 18

Glad to hear you have real life enjoyment (plus hard work) going on this weekend, james! I am resting before a physical Monday to renew my ID (they make it hard for us elderly - why I need to renew I can't really see, but okay.) Watching golf Masters I see plenty of welltodo but just a beautiful course; never did play golf but it is a pedestrian's pinnacle I guess. (Mountain climbing would be another as I have a big hill to come up home on my own treks.) Anyway, I enjoy.

As I said before, to each his own!

Posted by: juliania | Apr 13 2025 19:37 utc | 23

In addition to providing us with this forum for free speech and interaction our Host also provides us with valuable links to informative articles.

Thank You Bernard for all your efforts!

Posted by: petergrafstrm | Apr 13 2025 19:43 utc | 24

From a ZH piece

Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo's handling of the Covid crisis wasn't just a health catastrophe, but a financial one too, according to a damning new audit report released Friday. The state government poured $453 million into building an enormous stockpile of medical equipment -- and only used 0.000012% of it.

According to state comptroller Tom DiNapoli, New York bought a staggering 247,343 medical devices, but only wound up using a laughable three pieces of equipment out of the vast horde. Worse, the waste was only compounded by the state's utter neglect of its fiduciary duties to taxpayers. Rather than finding buyers for the once-valuable assets, bureaucrats have been content to let the equipment age and decay in warehouses. As if the erosion of the stockpiles weren't bad enough, New York is also wasting money on storage costs.

LOL!!!

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 13 2025 19:46 utc | 25

Long read: US far right ..

The rise of end times fascism

Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/apr/13/end-times-fascism-far-right-trump-musk

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 13 2025 19:48 utc | 26

It might just be me, but do we have two “Open (not Ukraine or Palestine)” threads running side-by side?

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 13 2025 19:56 utc | 27

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 19:24 utc | 22

They can be master negotiators all they want, but the attack isn't going to be a one-time or short-term thing. It's a continuation and escalation of YEARS of attacks, including economic warfare and cheap dirty tricks. Any country standing on its own (and we can debate Russia or China's role as Iran's allies) for that long amidst a sea of regional sell-outs and traitors has two options: 1) Wait it out and hope the Hegemon and its Jewish neighborhood attack dog implode on their own (which will happen, but when?) or 2) Arm up with nukes and make it known.

FWIW, I'm not even really saying I strongly support the current Iranian government in anything OTHER than their principled resistance to the aforementioned Evil Empire - of course that the Mullahs call many shots is an immediate by product of the Empire's regime change actions of the past.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 13 2025 20:16 utc | 28

@Sunny Runny Burger | Apr 13 2025 17:46 utc | 17

Many thanks for the link to https://partiet-for.no/

I have stopped reading Norwegian MSM and I have been excluded from discussion forums about politics multiple times over the last 15 years, they are all about narrative control.

I didn't know about this initiative. I had decided not to vote because there was nobody I could vote for. I might consider voting for this party as a matter of principle, even though it is unthinkable it will come into any position of influence.

Some positions I strongly identify with
- No American bases in Norway
- Norway to resign from NATO
- No weapons to Ukraine
- Stop the genocide in Palestine
- End the EU and EEA

There are also some things I disagree with (some "green" smelling policies), but the above are of such high importance that I might support this party as a counterweight to the usual criminals.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2025 20:45 utc | 29

@Sunny Runny Burger | Apr 13 2025 17:46 utc | 17
@Norwegian | Apr 13 2025 20:45 utc | 29

Turns out FOR has a Telegram Channel, here is video (in English) describing the reason for the new party
https://t.me/forpartiet/19

FOR also has a YouTube channel and promotes well known people such as Glenn Diesen (In English)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Rn8TMsPIM

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2025 20:55 utc | 30

Thanks, b; the Diesen article is one for the ages.
And thanks for the (timely) link re: QR codes; there's an old theater in town that has a weekly sci-fi night, and recently they have started putting unsightly QR codes on the promotional/commemorative posters, which totally spoils the artwork.
I sent the beeb link to the guy running the cinema program, along with a suggestion to just print one code and stick it on the display copy of the poster, which is in a sealed case.
Danke again for being here, b.

Posted by: robjira | Apr 13 2025 21:05 utc | 31

[Iran] has two options: 1) Wait it out and hope the Hegemon and its Jewish neighborhood attack dog implode on their own (which will happen, but when?) or 2) Arm up with nukes and make it known.
@ Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 13 2025 20:16 utc | 28

Spot on. It's painful to admit Iran can't make it without nukes, but your option number one is widely known today as "The Libya Option."

Should there ever be anything resembling justice in West Asia, the only top-priority issue would be destroying hundreds of nukes held over the whole world -- the mega-terrorist fist we call "The Samsom Option." But the so-called "Jewish state" cannot survive without continually posing this threat to Life on Earth. Take away their nukes, and there's no more "Jewish state," as everyone knows and few ever mention.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 13 2025 21:13 utc | 32

I dunno, I remain unconvinced about the idea of attacking Iran; somebody is going to find themselves looking at the pointy end of some Su-35s. Presumably the Zionist coalition has complete faith in the infallibility of their F-35s and B-2s?

You wanna go with nukes? You will still lose a Carrier Battle Group or two, and don’t forget to sweep up what remains of Tel Aviv and Haifa. After that you will have to deal with an enraged population in the Global South; good luck with the maritime commerce needed to supply your cheap supermarkets.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 13 2025 21:36 utc | 33

Re: They’ll kill us all’: Gazans plead for intervention as Israeli attacks intensify, posted above by b:

Discussion of Gaza has flagged, because there is really nothing more to say, and also it is so ugly that one cannot look at it. I know what is going on, but I cannot look, because it is too awful.

When the Palestinians say, "They'll kill us all," that appears to be exactly and totally true. Of course, as in most other genocides, the perpetrators don't like to say even to themselves what they are really doing. Himmler would even have said, "Oh, we aren't killing all the Jews. Just look: We are employing the able-bodied ones." It certainly appears that the Israelis' intent, supported now by a clear and maybe even an overwhelming majority of the Israelis, is to kill every last Palestinian in the Gaza Strip. They have cut off all food supplies, for God's sake. How can that mean anything but total extermination?

Yet no one is talking that way, and those appalled by the massacre even continue to bandy about estimates of 50,000-60,000 killed so far. Oh really?! Didn't we discuss a while back that when Trump said they would have to move 1.7 to 1.8 million Palestinians out of Gaza to realize his "Riviera in Gaza" plan, he was letting the cat out of the bag that the US knew that, as the prewar Gazan population was 2.3 million, it seemed that more than 500,000 had already been killed. And I would not be surprised if it isn't really a million already. What are the survivors eating in order to go on, dirt?

I can't put out blame on others for doing nothing to stop this massacre as I have also done very little. But what can ordinary people do anyway? The massacre has aroused massive repugnance for Israel and Zionism around the world and even in the Jewish community, indeed, even among a minority of Israelis, but no one seems to be able to do anything to stop it. It is a shame that such a massacre uglifies our lives by putting itself in our faces and also makes us think ill of the human race and human nature in general. All one can say, perhaps, is that because what goes around comes around, the Zionists and their political entity will eventually pay the price of their utter moral bankruptcy one way or another.

Posted by: Cabe | Apr 13 2025 21:38 utc | 34

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 13 2025 20:16 utc | 28

##############

Tom, I appreciate where you are coming from, but it is an American perspective.

These older cultures are very patient.

Iran is not going to react like China didn't react much to tariffs, like Russia is not reacting to Trump renewing sanctions.

The crazy guy (America) running around screaming and waving a gun is no longer seen as a threat. It's seen as a sign of desperation and weakness, precisely the moment you let your enemy continue to flounder and exhaust energy until he exhausts himself and needs nap time.

If America attacks Iran kinetically, it will be the biggest ass-whupping in world history. And all of these threats only serve to unite the Iranian people as they united the Russian people. The Ayatollah, like Putin, is more popular today for all of the Western belligerence.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 21:52 utc | 35

There is an interesting (to me) phenomenon happening in Africa.

America and France are playing games with issuing travel visas to Africans.

In return, several African countries don't want to issue visas to Americans and/or the French.

That's not what I find so interesting. It is that African countries are increasingly giving one another visa-free travel across the Continent.

As the West pressures Africa, Africa pulls closer together, as they were before colonization centuries ago. All of the modern African nations were created by European colonizers, as they have done in West Asia.

Previously, it was all tribal areas of influence and not actual nations. Those nations were ways for different colonizers (English, Dutch, Belgian, French, Italian, German) to "mark their territories". Divide and rule. "Property Rights".

Every geopolitical move creates resistance and counter-moves.

The greatest (unintended) architect of the multi-polar world may be the unipolar hegemony.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 22:05 utc | 36

Africa pulls closer together, as they were before colonization centuries ago.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 22:05 utc | 36

no they werent.

1. Africa is huge
2. it had only a few notable kingdoms in its history, and lots of war.
2. with gunpowder, it got violent and broke into literally hundreds of little chiefdoms constantly at war with each other.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 22:10 utc | 37

being conscious of this process is helpful though.. it is a good antidote to the endless propaganda we are exposed to... have a great weekend!

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2025 18:35 utc | 18

Thanks for that, James. Knock em dead tonight!

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Apr 13 2025 22:13 utc | 38

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 22:10 utc | 37

#############

Colonial history keeping is fascinating.

The "other" are always savages until the white man showed up to civilize them by cutting off their hands for not harvesting rubber fast enough.

Thank God for the enlightenment values of Europeans! 🙄🙄🙄

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 22:33 utc | 39

Thank you for the reply Norwegian and for the links, I will try them later.

I already know less than you but from what little I've seen I hope as many Norwegians as possible learn about and decide to support this new political party :)

It was a bit wrong of me to address my comment only to Norwegians as I would like to hear the views of everyone on MoA.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Apr 13 2025 22:39 utc | 40

Thanks for the link to U.S. Military Chiefs Gave Secret Orders to Use Germ Warfare on Japan - Jeff Kaye
By July 1945, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff gave military commanders approval to use anti-crop biological weapons against Japan, including authorization for covert use by the OSS.

Posted by: lester | Apr 13 2025 22:41 utc | 41

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 22:33 utc | 39

Yeah, I am quite aware of the crimes of Leopold.
You arent blowing my mind.

Talking like Africa was a "peaceful eden before the white man" shows you are quite ignorant of pre-colonial African history.

I am not. .And my African hostory classes were taught by a queer, bald headed, black feminist, professor.

So should I believe her, and all the books I read on the subject, or some dude on the internet thinking he can mask his ignorance with sarcasm and whatabout away African pre-colonial history with post-colonial history.

You clearly know nothing on the subject of pre-colonial african history. Amd you cant just pretend and bluff your way past me, or make sarcastic comments about colonial history. Just bevause colonial hostory was brutal, does not mean pre-colonial was peaceful. Indeed, Africa has always been a hostile continent, and competition for resources nevessary for survival has always been fierce.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 22:46 utc | 42

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 22:46 utc | 42

#########

I wasn't trying to "blow your mind". LOL

Do tell me, who recorded pre-colonial African history?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 22:49 utc | 43

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 22:49 utc | 43

Yeah.

In collegiate history, we also study who wrote and recorded the history.

Ive run into your types plenty of times. Dont know shit about a historical subject, but have an agenda, so just applies agenda to subject.

When corrected, instead of listening or researching, your type always resorts to, "well history is all lies anyways, therefore my personal made up version is right"

Africa is a huge continent, so it varies across the continent, but pre-colonial history was mostly preserved through folklore, like through griots, who, like most folklorists of prehostory, jhad no shame in bragging about how powerful their kings were, how many they killed, and gow many co cubines they took.

Of course, you do t care about the hostory of pre-colonial Africa, you just want to win an argument online without knowing anything on the subject, so you are going to resort to sophistry, semantics, and rhetorical questions grasping for air.

So, yeah, flail away, and try and tell the world your personal, vision inspited version of pre-colonial African history is th real history, and not the millions of hours of academic research.

But I wont listen to anymore of your buffoonery, or answer anymore of your foolish questions.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 23:03 utc | 44

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 23:03 utc | 44

#############

A lot of words to avoid answering who wrote (and how) the history before the Europeans. LOL

Logic 101 must not have been available at your JUCO.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 23:15 utc | 45

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 13 2025 23:15 utc | 45

What a pathetic little life you lead.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 13 2025 23:20 utc | 46

China isn’t decoupling from American tech—it’s torching it. Intel, AMD, ARM, Microsoft: all being erased from the Chinese stack. This isn’t trade war fallout. It’s geopolitical euthanasia.

The full thread here >>> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1911308499914539341.html

I can't wait to play with HarmonyOS one day.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 0:00 utc | 47

Except the OSS didn't operate in the Pacific during World War Two. MacArthur had banned the organization.

Would the OSS have deployed crop killing germs in Japan if MacArthur had allowed the OSS into the Pacific war? Probably.

Posted by: Jay | Apr 14 2025 1:03 utc | 48

From futureworld (China)

Starting from September 2025, Chinese public schools will have mandatory age appropriate AI literacy classes, like how to use prompts etc.

Super good idea with lightning quick execution. You only get that from a wise dictatorship.

Starts as early as age 6.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 1:19 utc | 49

On "precolonial" Africa.

https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-of-precolonial-africa-is-vacuous-and-wrong

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 1:53 utc | 50

All said in the essay, Europeans definitely set much of Africa back by up to a century.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 1:57 utc | 51

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 1:53 utc | 49

############

Thanks for the article.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 2:08 utc | 52

Thanks for another great week, b.

In the news:

Department of Homeland Security orders a Massachusetts born woman to leave the country.

In other news:

Police shoot a woman during traffic stop in New Hampshire.

Grin. What's up with these new englanders?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Apr 14 2025 2:14 utc | 53

From ZH

Escobar: Why China Won't Call The "Tariff-Wielding Barbarian"

quotes

The Chinese Foreign Ministry: A “tariff-wielding barbarian can never expect a call from China.”

Basic numbers. China’s GDP for 2025 is projected at 5%. U.S. imports account for at best 4% of Chinese GDP. China’s share of total exports to the U.S. dropped to 13.4 per cent in 2024.

Goldman Sachs – not exactly a CCP “mouthpiece” – has just projected that TTT will cost China only 0.5% of GDP in 2025, while costing no less than 2% of U.S. GDP. Talk about blowback.

...
As it stands, Trump’s “plan” – if there is any – remains to “stabilize” his allies while concentrating all the firepower on China, in theory to drive China’s complex supply chains to chaos and force companies to move production lines to, for example, Vietnam or India.

...
Beijing, for its part, can easily go nuclear, deciding for a sell-off of its U.S. Treasuries en masse, with catastrophic cascading consequences. As of January, Beijing held $760 billion in U.S. debt. With a delightful diplomatic touch, Yang Panpan and Xu Qiuyan, researchers at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, note that what happens next with U.S. Treasury bonds remains “highly uncertain”.

Bridgewater billionaire investor Ray Dalio, for his part, while incisive, was also heavy on diplomacy: “We are seeing a classic breakdown of the major monetary, political and geopolitical orders.”

There’s no more “cooperative world order” led by the U.S. (in fact that was anything but cooperative”); Dalio at least recognizes the unilateralism manifest in “the U.S.-led trade-war, geopolitical war, technology war, and, in some cases, military wars.”

...
The Empire of Chaos embarks on a hot geoeconomics war against its peer competitor China; contemplates a hot military war against sovereign Iran; and at the same time tries to appease nuclear/hypersonic power Russia into a sort of hazy deal to somewhat freeze the Forever War by proxy in Ukraine.

The new Primakov triangle, RIC (Russia-Iran-China) is perfectly aware of these moves. Putin had metaphorically characterized the Russian position in the U.S.-China trade war when he mentioned that the Chinese have a good proverb: when tigers fight in the valley, the smart monkey sits and watches how it ends.

Now is more the case of three wise monkeys perfectly aware of what a pigeon posing as eagle is really up to.

Pepe is on the mark

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 14 2025 2:18 utc | 54

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 1:53 utc | 49

a long winded attempt to word police, without giving an alternative phrase which should be used.

"pre colonial african history" is generally understood to mean "pre Euro and muslim colonial history of subsaharan Africa"

But that is a ton of words to explain the place and time period, and unnecessary.

Its like saying, "dont say 'pre civil war America'", because the revolution was a civil war between britain and the colonies, and America includes north and south america, and there have been many civil wars in the American continents and it belittles the struggles of other... blah blah blah blah blah... fuck off, language cop.

North African history is very different than subsaharan, and generally "pre colonial" is not applied to it because its history is far more complete and well recorded.

We also say "pre colonial middle east" and "precolonial south asia" and every body knows what is meant.

That essay was a giant, pedantic word salad. Jesus Fuck.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 2:24 utc | 55

All said in the essay, Europeans definitely set much of Africa back by up to a century.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 1:57 utc | 50

what does that even mean?
"set back" how?
Compared to what alternative history?

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 2:28 utc | 56

Say, what's up with the orange man? Just saw a picture of him. He looks less orange. Is the pigmentation wearing off? Is it Trump Tariff Tizzy (TTT) (H/T Pepe E.), scared white?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Apr 14 2025 2:35 utc | 57

Trump’s trade-tariff two-step/moonwalk…. Introducing Howard Lutnick
§|. Aside from NOT being in his Cantor Fitzgerald WTC North Tower office on Sep 11, 2001, Trump's Commerce Sec. Howard Lutnick lived on the same street in NYC as Jeffery Epstein, the notorious sex trafficker & alleged Mossad Honeypot operator.
Epstein's mansion at *9* 71st & Lutnick's mansion at *11* 71st.
Next door neighbors, what a COHENcidence!
Lutnick acquired 11 East 71st Street in 1998 from the 11 East 71st Street Trust for a reported $7.6 million, based on real estate transfer tax records, though the deed lists the transaction as “$10 and other valuable consideration.”
The property’s prior ownership ties back to entities associated with Leslie Wexner, (Comet Trust) Epstein’s mentor, but the sale to Lutnick predates Epstein’s formal ownership of 9 East 71st Street, which was transferred to him in 2011.
This timeline suggests Lutnick’s purchase occurred before Epstein’s residence was exposed as a hub of sex trafficking.
Lutnick, involved in shady Tether Bonds etc, which the SEC just stopped looking into. Weird huh.
Now his two sons are experts on blockchain deal$... you could call them real Stable Coin Geniuses!
They are running the (shit)show, and laughing about it.
Their addresses: *9* 71st / *11* 71st

Charles Schwab enjoys a chuckle with Trump in the WH. You’d maybe chuckle if you’d made $2b in a day (trading off stock market mayhem)
https://x.com/moreperfectus/status/1910340290260463771?s=46
Trump tweet: “today is a great day to buy… “

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 14 2025 2:55 utc | 58

money made and lost in the stock market was between institutions, as always.

Trying to make a conspiracy put of it is silly.

Stock Market trading is risky. People know but ignore.

Just like the people trying to make victims of the TrumpCoin losers and hack-tua coin losers. People losing millions on those coins are not victims, they are high stakes gamblers, who win some and lose some, and a million aint much to most of yhem.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 3:01 utc | 59

Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 13 2025 21:36 utc | 33
If “they” do make a move on Iran, even a convincing feint, I’d like to see Best Korea launch a “test” missile in the vague direction of Hawaii/ San Fran.
Simultaneously, China conduct some drills and “games” towards Taiwan and Russia flex in the Northern Sea Route towards Greenland. And the Houthis continue to down reaper-drones.
Just to watch the U$ try to scramble its war toys to every theatre at once.
I’m only suggesting some “games”/ flex. Like the U$ has done for years.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 14 2025 3:07 utc | 60

A Twitter thread with a bunch of Russia's trade routes explained.

https://x.com/NewRulesGeo/status/1911391629165858938

These all bypass Europe, which has started trying to seize Russian ships.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 3:23 utc | 61

MOATS, Ep 438, with George Galloway (&vid)

https://x.com/georgegalloway/status/1911478398293352599

'Volte Face'

Posted by: John Gilberts | Apr 14 2025 3:31 utc | 62

Blowing out others' lamp will not bring light to oneself."
- Chinese President Xi Jinping

Chinese Rare Earths… now off the menu
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/04/china-halts-rare-earth-exports-u-s-threatening/
I know barflies are meh about “not-so *rare* earths”, but at this point in Trump’s trade-tariff-tizz, China saying “no” just adds to his calenture…

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 14 2025 3:38 utc | 63

Xi taking a short tour of the neighbourhood.
Malaysia, Vietnam and Cambodia
What’s on the discussion agenda?

Meanwhile the U$ won’t be attending the G20 in South Africa.
Too much genocide, is the reason.
Yep. South Africa does too much genocide and the U$ cannot be seen to support countries that engage in genocide.
https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114321989500112442

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 14 2025 3:49 utc | 64

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 2:28 utc | 55

The one where Africa wasn't raped for a century and a half by white assholes from Europe. Dumbass.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 4:12 utc | 65

That essay was a giant, pedantic word salad. Jesus Fuck.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 2:24 utc | 54

Did you actually read the thing? It was essentially supporting YOUR point in the latest of your tit-for-tat MoA flame wars, FFS.

But I'm sure your fuckin purple haired black trans-lesbo professor at U-Dub was a much better source. Maybe you could share with us some of the reading materials you were assigned and so studiously analyzed back then, or just fucking drop it for a change.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 4:25 utc | 66

The one where Africa wasn't raped for a century and a half by white assholes from Europe. Dumbass.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 4:12 utc | 64

For one, middle east and india also were heavily involved in the slave trade, and Islam in "colonization", not just "white people".

For two, Ethiopia was never colonized, yet Ethiopia is not a "century ahead" of the rest of Africa.

For three, colonization helped the standard of living for most Africans.

For four: Captured Africans not sold into slavery, by other Africans, were killed. If female, they may have been concubines. Sometimes males could be kept as slaves as well, if they were not affiliated with any warriors killed in battle or executed. The slavery was not chattel slavery, and generally fairly benevolent, but that was if you were lucky enough not to be executed.

All that said, I dont see how Africa could gave possibly modernized without colonialism, and I dont see how colonialism could have happened without some sort of respurce motive ..

...unless we want to talk about missionaries, in which case, the amount of work done by both Christian and Muslim missionaries in Africa was enormous, and the case it was all for money and wealth, and not proseletization and religious duty falls quite flat when realizing the living standard and risks most missionaries and muslims went through to spread their faith.

There is very little evidence that the vast majority of their charity was somehow done for anything but the grace of their god.

And I happen to know a couple doctors, right now, IRL, who go to Africa a few times a year to do medical work and minor surgeries, and you cant ever convince me it is for anything but goodwill and charity.

I'm not the dumbass. Africa is a big place, with lots of stories and colonial history. And the "evil exploiters" history holds true for Belgium and Germany, somewhat for Britain and the Netherlands, not as much for France.

There is a lot more to it than slavery and rubber.

Like Quinine.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:36 utc | 67

For three, colonization helped the standard of living for most Africans.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:36 utc | 66

#############

Soon, you will be telling us how the Indian Wars were the best thing to happen to the Comanche and how Agent Orange helped Vietnamese kids grow up big and strong.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 4:41 utc | 68

Maybe you could share with us some of the reading materials you were assigned and so studiously analyzed back then, or just fucking drop it for a change.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 4:25 utc | 65

yes, the essay talked of African history, but it was incredibly wordy, which is disrespectful to the reader. He could have said everything in 500 words...

...oh, amd the thesis "the term pre colonial Africa is racist", is stupid bullshit.

some books:
The Cold War and The Color Line
The Graves are Not Yet Full
Saltwater Slavery
African Queen
Sundiata: an Epic of old Mali

A movie called "Kieta!"

Some articles:

Memories of Griots, by Nicholas S Hopkins

Lilyan Kesteloot and Thomas Hale
"Power and Portrayals in Royal Mande Narratives"

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:47 utc | 69

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:36 utc | 66

Ok fair answer. My take has little to do with trans Atlantic slavery tho and more to do with resource theft and artificial borders that forced African people of different, sometimes hostile but not mutually genocidal, groups and tribes to live under arbitrary authoritarian installed corrupt governments.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 4:51 utc | 70

Soon, you will be telling us how the Indian Wars were the best thing to happen to the Comanche and how Agent Orange helped Vietnamese kids grow up big and strong.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 4:41 utc | 67

Stupid.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:52 utc | 71

Ok fair answer. My take has little to do with trans Atlantic slavery tho and more to do with resource theft and artificial borders that forced African people of different, sometimes hostile but not mutually genocidal, groups and tribes to live under arbitrary authoritarian installed corrupt governments.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 4:51 utc | 69

Their were certainly problems with colonialism, and post colonial borders, and colonialism overall was not done out of benevolence, but the Africans themselves, like most humans, have not shown any kind of higher level of compassion for their fellow man, than any pther race, where they would have theoretically built better societies without colonialisation.

And this is compounded by how brital of a continent Africa really is.

Un fact, the biggest reason it was not colonized earlier, is because how deadly it is, from tse tse flies to yellow fever to poor soil and blistering heat to poisonous creatures of all types, it really is a very difficult place to build a civilization, and i times of want, societies tend to fight others, so Africa had a lot of that in its history.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 5:01 utc | 72

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:36 utc | 66

https://africanarguments.org/2017/06/ethiopia-was-colonised/

If you're two hours behind me on the left coast, I apologize since it's getting pretty late here and I didn't really intend to get in a long discussion about this, but here's my general opinion.

What is "modern (or modernized)" in this context? And it almost doesn't matter. Because if the Euros had just traded in good faith with the Africans, exchanging goods and gold on a free-ish market basis, and not absolutely subjugating them because they LITERALLY thought those blacks were savages and below European (and Christian) human status, what would have happened in MOST of Africa would be somewhat equivalent to what happened in the Ottoman Empire. Plus various African civilizations were already very civilized and had their own systems that we'd call "science" and "math" - much of it without the need for scare quotes. All the fuckin white assholes had to do was treat them like equal human beings and trade with them as such. Call it the Prime Directive. Don't be dicks, don't expect to get something for almost nothing even if you gotta spill a little blood and spread corruption to get it. Greed and racism (altho at the time "racism" wasn't really the term of use) caused the Europeans to force Africa into a (mostly ubiquitous) situation of rapidly and forcibly adapting to "modern" European systems, which again involved mass murder, local (not trans-Atlantic) effective slavery, and corruption.

To believe anything otherwise and say you've actually studied "pre-colonial" African history is basically to admit to western chauvinism and - at the core - that Africans were really undeveloped savages. IMHO, anyway.

Gotta go to bed now, have a good one.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:03 utc | 73

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 5:01 utc | 71

Yeah, for sure. Brutal in terms of environment as seen from European or "western" eyes and immune systems. That's why the Africans didn't have the mass die-offs of the American natives due to nasty Euro diseases, at least not "mass".....

But from yer arguments I really get the feeling that you think Africa (as a generified whole) was like a continent full of raging savages and genocidal freaks who would have just killed each other off or traded each other into slavery or converged into one or two giant despotic continental 'backward' "un-modern" empires. I don't agree with that at all, but of course we have no way of FULLY knowing since you can't go back and re-do the past.

Have any natives, anywhere else, BENEFITED from Euro colonization tho? I would argue "Fuck no." Because to say "yes" is to say they are so much better off with a 65" flat screen from Costco and some nasty synthetic pharmaceuticals to treat obesity due to eating nothing but shit processed foods.

But yeh, the past is the past (is the present) tho... We could always stop being greedy dicks.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:09 utc | 74

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 4:47 utc | 68

Thx. I'll pirate a few of them in the coming weeks. Now I gotta go for real. Hope y'all don't stay up all night arguing.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:13 utc | 75

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:03 utc | 72

Trade for what? Africa could hardly feed itself. Western Chauvinism my ass, pointing to one or two little civilizations here and there, who engaged in rudimemtary scoence...

Just fuck it. You cant just say Africa was just as advanced and as healthy as Europe or Asia until the evil whote man came.

Nor can you claim the white man taight them war and slavery. That just simply is not the case.

I know you want to be mad about humans treating other humans like shit when they can get away with it, but Ill have you know, I only know pf a few places in the world where that was not true, mostly in north west and north east America, and Australia, (but not New Zealand either).

The vast majority of the world is full of selfish people, or desperate people, both of which rately leads to anything but exploitation or conflict.

The white man happened to have the technological edge in the 17th -20st century, so they used it and exploited. Dont think for one second Indian princes were little ghandis and Chinese Emperors peaceful Buddhas, and need I even talk of Mongols or Aztec or Inca?

Is that all "western chauvanism as well to say that those people were not very nice to wachother, to say the least?

No

So I know it is yncomfortable, but Africans as a whole were not peaceful, nor were they advancing to gelp the plight of theie kinsmen in any sort of technilogical qay, until Islam avd Euro colonalism.

And to deny will only yield idealist induced cognitive dissonance and amger, instead of understanding and enlightenment.

Then youll just find yourself changing religions and gods and truths like hairstyles and posting stupid shit on MoA all day trying to get a hate fix instead of trying to understand anything.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 5:20 utc | 76

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 5:20 utc | 75

Dude...I really do have to pass out soon, but WTF I've already exposed myself as a person who has no impulse control, so....

If in fact you can really lump all humans and human cultures or religions into a single "everyone who's broke or hungry will simply travel wherever they need to fuck someone else out of what they want" then you're missing the point on multiple levels.

1) The Euros who initiated and benefited from raping Africa were NEVER starving, broke or hungry. The ruling elites of the time already owned all they needed. All they did was turn their own lower classes into roving and sailing bands of savages willing to act on the de-humanization they had been instilled with - on purpose.

2) It's not all about technology or "advancement" in a given area. Do you see the Chinese colonizing their near abroad right now? They certainly could. And they could do it even with the US hegemon threatening them. Every example ever provided turns out to be a nuanced mess of propaganda and half truths or outright lies. Not all cultures or peoples are the same regardless of some devious wish to believe that we're all just bloodthirsty Darwinistic barbarians ready to emerge the second we think (or know) we need some....THING.

None of which is to say that any one culture is superior to another on EVERY front. But when you look at what the Euros did to Africa and Asia followed by their American former colonists, it's pretty easy to say that there was a sadistic, anti-human motivation that was way too easily adopted by even the foot soldiers. In which case ultimately you might be the one engaging in an imaginary alternative history - one in which you fall back on the super thin and suppositive belief that "well...we got steel and guns and seafaring tech first! if THEY had they'd have done the same thing!"

Get me?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:30 utc | 77

Have any natives, anywhere else, BENEFITED from Euro colonization tho? I would argue "Fuck no." Because to say "yes" is to say they are so much better off with a 65" flat screen from Costco and some nasty synthetic pharmaceuticals to treat obesity due to eating nothing but shit processed foods.

But yeh, the past is the past (is the present) tho... We could always stop being greedy dicks.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:09 utc | 73

But this is all just disdatisfaction with modern life.

As I haveemtioned before, I do hike, but I would never want to live that lufestyle. (flush fucking toilets and hot meals, wonderful).

Modern life is simply better to most people, although there are a few who are mountain people,They Still are mostly trust fund kids, they dont actually go through all the hardship of actual wild living, it is not easy. It is not fun. It is mostly miserable, and full of death, disease, and pain.

I live in a very native area, and most natives dont live in long houses and eat smoked salmon and huckleberries all day. They could...
...they dont. Most of them dont even dare to go to cultural events or engage in native cultural crafts etc, like everybody else, arguong online or watching youtube or playing call of duty is just way more enjoyable. All of modern lifes conveniences are engaged in for a reason over smoking peace pipes and sweat lodges and sewing cedar clothes

Romanticizing difficult life only happens by comfortable people.

The doctors who go to Africa tell me about the lines... all day, crowd control needed. Thing you would never think about here, elephantitis and "tongue tied" are the two things they treat hundreds of times a day. Some times more advanced surgeries...

...it is just so easy to look around and say, "this is so horrible", when life is actually so good

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 5:36 utc | 78

So I know it is yncomfortable, but Africans as a whole were not peaceful, nor were they advancing to gelp the plight of theie kinsmen in any sort of technilogical qay, until Islam avd Euro colonalism.

____________________________________________

That's a massive strawman UWDude. I never said that - and in fact alluded to the opposite - or at least I tried.

Why is the only opposing viewpoint allowed the Native Utopia version of history? Like us smelly hairy disease ridden white Euros invaded these perfect innocent people and if we hadn't, things would be peachy? It's ridiculous.

But there DO happen to be peoples, cultures and even their elites who are NOT motivated by pure greed and the de-humanization of "the other" whether you want to see it or not. And Europeans definitely felt that they were superior.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:38 utc | 79

Romanticizing difficult life only happens by comfortable people.

The doctors who go to Africa tell me about the lines... all day, crowd control needed. Thing you would never think about here, elephantitis and "tongue tied" are the two things they treat hundreds of times a day. Some times more advanced surgeries...

...it is just so easy to look around and say, "this is so horrible", when life is actually so good

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 5:36 utc | 77

But I'm not romanticizing anything. If you seriously think that Africans would still be shitting into holes in the ground and wiping their asses with leaves, I'm not sure what to say. They may not have had "KOHLER" stamped on their WHITE porcelain toilets, but they sure as fuck would not be living like the (forced) lower castes in India (forced both by their own fucked system and colonization) who eat cow shit or whatever. Africans never did that.

This is like debating a bidet vs. paper asswipe. "Modern" is not a universal concept. Sometimes it really is just better to treat other people, cultures and civilizations like equals even when you THINK it's a zero sum game (it's not) and just let it ride.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:41 utc | 80

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:38 utc | 78

well all that talk about you feeling I thought Africa was full of savages talk might have confused me about what you are trying to say, then.

And I hated white people after many of my classes, hard not to.

African history for sure, like maji maji rebellion, Germans were fucks, and King Leopold in Comgo, terrible

but at the same time, France was giving Africans citizenship and tepresentation in parliament.

The mau mau rebellion against Britain had many causes, one ofthem being their girls were tuening Christian and refusing cliterectomies.

And I really had to think about it.

We were taught how terrible white people were in southeast asian history, like Dutch in Java, but when i did a project with an indonesian friend, he told me they did not hate white people for colonozation at all, they hated the Japanese very much though.

And racism, I learned plenty about inter Asian racism and oppression like in Malaysia etc, the racism is worse their between asian ethnicities than it is between black and white here, and superioroty, there are to snof malay and thai and Imduans and Japanese and Chinese who think they are the best, most advanced people on the planet.

Later,as I looked into Chinese history, I learned how cruel the Chinese could be to eachother. India, land of Ghandi, was at war most its history, and many Indians think the Brits were better than "home rule", especially upper caste who loathe low castes having any power.

And Imdian racism and sexism is off the charts to this very day, in fact, Ghandi was a Hindu supremecist. read his writings, you'll see.

I am rambling, but In terms of evil, the colonization of Africa was far from the worst of human evils, and theussionaties, some of the best of human goodness!!

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 6:01 utc | 81

But I'm not romanticizing anything. If you seriously think that Africans would still be shitting into holes in the ground and wiping their asses with leaves, I'm not sure what to say. They may not have had "KOHLER" stamped on their WHITE porcelain toilets, but they sure as fuck would not be living like the (forced) lower castes in India (forced both by their own fucked system and colonization) who eat cow shit or whatever. Africans never did that.

This is like debating a bidet vs. paper asswipe. "Modern" is not a universal concept. Sometimes it really is just better to treat other people, cultures and civilizations like equals even when you THINK it's a zero sum game (it's not) and just let it ride.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 14 2025 5:41 utc | 79

Could white people have done better in history? Absolutely.

Would Africa be better off without colonization, no. It could have happened better, but without colonization, both from Islam and Europe, Africa would still be quite bleak.

Colonization did not "set them back.a century". That statement is just patently false.

Its kund of like Mao's Great Leap Forward, could have been done better, but it certainly did not set China back.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 6:14 utc | 82

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 6:14 utc | 81

########

France did horrible things in West Africa and it's only just stopping now with AES.

You don't even understand what colonialism is.

Another know-it-all Westerner. 🙄

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 6:19 utc | 83

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 6:19 utc | 82

Stupid

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 6:25 utc | 84

theussionaties, some of the best of human goodness!!

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 6:01 utc | 80

wow, missionaries. Spell check is off, obviously.

Posted by: UWDude | Apr 14 2025 6:27 utc | 85

If you want to know more about African History and development, you should read "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" by Walter Rodney, 1972, (who was killed in 1980), available as printed book and free PDF in the Internet. This is the most convincing presentation of African History, which I ever found.

Posted by: Laokomi | Apr 14 2025 7:44 utc | 86

Do we actually know that Iran has taken delivery of Su-35s?
Last I heard, their pilots were training in Russia, the aircraft awaiting delivery.

Posted by: necromancer | Apr 14 2025 8:09 utc | 87

Confirmation (ish)
BREAKING:
Yemeni Houthis have downed another U.S. MQ-9 Reaper drone, the 4th in 14 days, 19th in total.
https://x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1911723523795517680

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 14 2025 11:29 utc | 88

UW + Tom - very relevant discussion/debate that is necessary and deserving.

From my viewpoint throughout history force has been used on others, it is not just a "white person" feature, but europeans (amongst others) became very 'efficient' in application, partly due to technological advancement, partly due to the merciless nature of expansion and resulting confrontations during exploitation, partly due to methods of western organisation. 'Us europeans' had a lot of practice on each other first, invasions from and on neighbouring peoples, then centuries 'reclaiming' southern europe which continued into Africa, Asia, and America and then the middle east. I don't apologise, or speak with any condonation either, as all atrocity deserves condemnation.

A reality that still has not been resolved is that the peaceful will eventually be conquered, exploited or genocided by the even slightly less peaceful. The same goes for peaceful europeans...you note not all people in europe walk around foaming at the mouth, right ?

I share UW's view in the sense that it would be wrong to try to define events solely on race or continent, which would probably also play into the hands of those that would exploit existing differences as much as those who defend 'africans' as a set. That is to say this deserves much better analysis and understanding to be able to reason out a workable approach that suits (for example that is apt for africans in Africa).

Africa or any nation or people cannot be arranged just on hating or disliking white people, or europeans etc. Rejection and distrust for sure is valid, but not based solely on historical wrongs but instead as in comparison to own positive attributes. 'We are better because they are worse' without any better idea of what 'we' should be beyond 'our say', is not a solution. Modern or foreign influence and dificulties will present themselves no matter.

Zimbabwe is a prime example of mismanagement of colonial exit, or look at the population expansion and related pressures in some countries in Africa, which can be seen as an added burden of modernisation (westernisation) or can be looked upon as a benefit. Who is anyone to decide over the lives of others in that circumstance ?

There are always more questions than answers.

UW - Indus valley civilisation was supposedly a very peaceful long lasting culture/society, although some now dispute it being completely peaceful.

Also, just one discrepancy that highlights error in western academic thinking. Iron age (ability to refine iron) is often taken as an evolutionary stage in whatever society (new tools, technical ability etc. ) , and so the usual culprits try to claim origin of the technology etc. . However, it turns out earlier iron production existed seperately in Africa, and did not go along with any greater evolution.

It is funny, modern technical academics and experimental archaeologists were trying to figure (with all western available means and data) how to produce iron in a smaller furnace (so without chimney as part of the iron reduction - because of finding slag in small archaeological hollows that might have been an iron furnace). So I'm looking around and find an old bw film from Africa from around 1930 that follows a tribe on their yearly migration to ore deposits to make iron ...in a small pit without chimney.

That's enough writing for me for today, just to add a facet or two to the debate.

Posted by: Ornot | Apr 14 2025 14:18 utc | 89

“Return of the Robber Barons – Trump’s Inverted View of America’s Tariff History”
by Michael Hudson
April 14, 2025

...In admiring the absence of progressive income taxation in the era of his hero, William McKinley (elected president in 1896 and 1900), Trump is admiring the economic excess and inequality of the Gilded Age. That inequality was widely criticized as a distortion of economic efficiency and social progress. To counteract the corrosive and conspicuous wealth-seeking that caused the distortion, Congress passed the Sherman Anti-Trust Law in 1890, Teddy Roosevelt followed with his trust busting, and a remarkably progressive income tax was passed that fell almost entirely on rentier financial and real estate income and monopoly rents.

Trump thus is promoting a simplistic and outright false narrative of what made America’s nineteenth century policy of industrialization so successful. For him, what is great is the “gilded” part of the Gilded Age, not its state-led industrial and social-democratic takeoff. His panacea is for tariffs to replace income taxes, along with privatizing what remains of the government’s functions. That would give a new set of robber barons free reign to further enrich themselves by shrinking the government’s taxation and regulation of them, while reducing the budget deficit by selling off the remaining public domain, from national park lands to the post office and research labs...

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2025/04/michael-hudson-return-of-the-robber-barons-trumps-inverted-view-of-americas-tariff-history.html

~~

“Are US tariffs just the beginning?”
@FT
Alan Beattie and Abraham Newman, professor of political science at Georgetown University, transcript

https://archive.ph/b3BQ8

Posted by: suzan | Apr 14 2025 15:10 utc | 90

Confirmation (ish)
BREAKING:
Yemeni Houthis have downed another U.S. MQ-9 Reaper drone, the 4th in 14 days, 19th in total.
https://x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1911723523795517680

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 14 2025 11:29 utc | 87

At that rhythm the us could run out in 3 years

Reapers are for striking civilian level targets with no AD.

On the other hand too many strikes and too little F-18 hit. So less than stellar AD when dabbling with the us. This is something that hs shown how controlled and limited Iran's support has been.

Posted by: Newbie | Apr 14 2025 15:26 utc | 91

Posted by: Newbie | Apr 14 2025 15:26 utc | 91

#############

Yemen, like Gaza doesn't have much (or any) AD.

Iran doesn't have that problem.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 16:21 utc | 92

Yemen, like Gaza doesn't have much (or any) AD.

Iran doesn't have that problem.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 16:21 utc | 92

They have, some, almost 20 reapers counts for something, if gaza had equivalent means, the IDF would have had a lot of trouble.

But it is sub-par, and no serious effort was made to change that (and that is the main point)

Posted by: Newbie | Apr 14 2025 16:32 utc | 93

MacArthur may have kept OSS out of the part of the Pacific theater under his command. But that does not mean the whole of the Pacific theater. Look at the war record of film director John Ford, who was an officer in the OSS and who spent much of the war in the Pacific.

To get an idea of what Ford and his Navy buddies thought of MacArthur, look at Ford's movie "Fort Apache", in which the martinet Colonel Owen Thursday is very much patterned after MacArthur.

Posted by: Lysias | Apr 14 2025 16:52 utc | 94

Posted by: suzan | Apr 14 2025 15:10 utc | 90 Thanks for the Hudson link, I also commend it. I would add that the antebellum US was partly funded (roughly 50% over the long run) by land sales, mostly at prices and lot sizes designed to favor the wealthy (such as southern planters aka slaveholders) partly because they had the most money and this maximized revenue. I would also add that limiting revenue to tariffs and land sales tended to weaken public infrastructure (called then internal improvements.) That slowed American industrial growth, and even weakened national defense. I noted at least one MoA comment braying about "Jeffersonian self-sufficiency." That person apparently didn't realize that Jefferson's policies not only failed to prevent the War of 1812, much less end English impressment of American sailors, but the very weak US was essentially defeated in 1812. The country managed not to be reconquered by the English, but it definitively lost Canada, forever (Trump's delusions notwithstanding.) That's not a high bar.

More useful links on economy: https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2025/04/13/tariffs-triffin-and-the-dollar/

Does this mean dollar dominance is over and we are in a multi-polar, multi currency world? Some on the left promote this trend. But there is a long way to go before the dollar’s international role will be trashed. Alternative currencies don’t look a safe bet either as all economies try to keep their currencies cheap to compete – that’s why there has been a rush to gold in financial markets.

The so-called BRICS are in no position to take over from the US dollar. This is a loose grouping of diverse economies and political institutions, with little in common, except for some resistance to the objectives of US imperialism. And contrary to all the talk of the dollar collapsing, the reality is that the dollar is still historically strong against other trading currencies, despite Trump’s zig zags.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2025/04/14/five-facts-about-trade-you-dont-read-in-the-newspaper/

1) The dollar’s status as the leading reserve currency does not mean we have to run a trade deficit,

2) There is no direct relationship between the budget deficit and the trade deficit,

3) The explosion in the size of the trade deficit at the start of the century cost millions of manufacturing jobs,
\
4) The trade deficit is considerably smaller today than it was two decades ago,

5) Manufacturing jobs are not necessarily good jobs. Unions made them good jobs, not the factories.

Ann last one useful article that accidentally slipped into Jacobin: https://jacobin.com/2025/04/21st-century-finance-capitalism-basics

To start: What are the most important developments on Wall Street in recent years? The short answer: massive asset managers — above all, the “Big Three” of BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street — have become the dominant players in the financial system and the economy more broadly.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Apr 14 2025 17:13 utc | 95

Looks like the evidence is in that Marjorie Taylor Greene has been busted insider trading the tariffs.

MAGA are such children. Naive about power and the world.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 17:28 utc | 96

I believe that if such a thing were found out about a politician in China, the consequences would be the death penalty.

And that, IMO, is why China is winning the trade war. One is a serious civilization, and the other is not.

It's not just capitalism vs socialism. It's what a society will tolerate.

The West tolerates anything for the right price.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 17:31 utc | 97

@LoveDonbass | Apr 14 2025 17:31 utc | 97

The West tolerates anything for the right price.

Brilliant. Would you consider to trademark this- the typical western rentier style? /sarc

Posted by: LuRenJia | Apr 14 2025 17:52 utc | 98

Aleph_Null, james

Contrast Larry Johnson’s exit from the Agency to Phil Agee’s experiences. There in a single image is my problem with “ex”-intelligence assets - Johnson, Crooke, McGovern, whoever.

Agee blew the whistle in his book “Inside The Company” - naming hundreds of CIA agents, describing operating procedure etc. He suffered for theses actions, his old life was destroyed and he had to make a new one.He called the CIA and by extension the Western Intelligence complex “Capitalism’s invisible army”.

James Jesus Angleton, counter-intelligence chief at Langley from 1954-75 described the public’s view of “the CIA and the Cult of Intelligence” (This description is the title of Victor Marchetti’s book, another whistleblower who charged that “ The cult of intelligence is a secret fraternity of the American political aristocracy. The purpose of the cult is to further the foreign policies of the U.S. government by covert and usually illegal means”) as”the wilderness of mirrors”. Agee and Marchetti and to a lesser degree Frank Snepp (who wrote “Decent Interval” began the process of smashing these mirrors. These three men all had been serving CIA officers and they spoke with the authority of experience

The Church Committee, set up in the seventies to investigate the CIA, continued this process.but afterwards nothing. So when these guys come on with opinions, I think of Angleton’s “wilderness of mirrors”. None as far as I am aware have disavowed their previous employer which as Marchetti stressed, is a cult. Secrecy dominates this world and look at the state of it - kids bombed in tents, kids digging coltan in Congo for Elon Musk, kids in some southern US state, maybe in Mississippi, being used as forced labour. The State. Senator who introduced the bill last week joked “the children were pining for the mines”

“The past is never dead. It's not even past. ”
Requiem for a Nun, William Faulkner

Posted by: will moon | Apr 14 2025 18:12 utc | 99

I don't have the time to work through the comments but I'd like to provide two more links, forgive me if they've been provided already:

1. Brian Berletic - Worst Case Scenario: Trump’s Tariffs Walling US Off Ahead of Wider World Conflict

While the most immediate and intuitive explanations for growing US tariffs against nations worldwide stem from protecting uncompetitive but deeply entrenched corporate-financier monopolies within the US from increasing foreign competition, or a specific strategy to contain China’s growing economic influence worldwide, there is a much more concerning possibility being overlooked by many – the US decoupling from a global economy it seeks to deliberately destroy through a combination of economic and actual warfare.

The obvious and growing impact tariffs will have on the cost-of-living crisis in the United States represent a high and unsustainable cost politically, socially, and economically for the United States – so much so that little else besides anticipation ahead of a major conflict could justify such costs as acceptable.

Were the US preparing for the deliberate destruction of the current global economic system, or large-scale war with one or more of its declared “adversaries,” decoupling itself from the global economy first on its own terms ahead of time – especially in terms of America’s dependence on China for supply chains including all throughout its military industrial base, would be a necessary prerequisite.

This completely matches my analysis and what we're witnessing right now is probably the shaping of the global battlefield for a hot conflict later on (remember the timeframes given by several generals etc.)

https://journal-neo.su/2025/04/08/worst-case-scenario-trumps-tariffs-walling-us-off-ahead-of-wider-world-conflict/

2. Sputnik - How US Mega-Funds Secretly Control Europe

US mega-funds seized control of KEY European companies after 2008, giving Washington powerful levers to exact pressure — economically, politically & even militarily.
...
From 2008-2018, US funds took managerial and shareholder control of most of Europe’s top 20 banks, and over $16.7T in assets.
This cost just $300B, thanks to the PIIGS crisis and the LIBOR/Forex scandals, in which US actors often played a clandestine role. Europe’s crisis, made possible with US mega-fund help, allowed the US to reestablish the dollar’s shaky position, and flipped control over international currency markets: from 45% European bank-owned in 2007, to 72% US bank-owned in 2017.
...
Germany is a case in point, with 24 of 30 of its top firms under US management by 2017, and bank capitalization down 70%+.

Very interesting analysis with some excellent infographics – this matches my observation of the mega fund investments in the military sector in Europe (I've provided some numbers a couple weeks ago).

https://sputnikglobe.com/20250409/how-us-mega-funds-secretly-control-europe-1121845686.html

Posted by: Zet | Apr 14 2025 18:12 utc | 100