Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 6, 2025
Trump’s Tariff Wars Will Hurt U.S. The Most

President Donald Trump seems to believe that tariffs can help to bring manufacturing back to the States.

Trump's tariffs have so far been aimed at four targets, the U.S. neighbors Canada and Mexico, China and, soon to come, the European Union.

During his first term Trump negotiated the U.S.M.C.A. with Mexico and Canada, a free trade zone covering the U.S. and its neighbors. He is now attempting to change the rules of it. But the way he does so is inconsistent.

On January 21 Trump promised tariffs on Canada and Mexico. On February 1 he announced them. Three days later he delayed the implementation of those tariffs. On February 27 he said the tariffs would go into effect on March 4. On March 5 he was again forced to pull back (archived):

President Trump said on Wednesday that he would pause tariffs on cars coming into the United States from Canada and Mexico for one month, after a 25 percent tariff that he placed on America’s closest trading partners a day earlier roiled stock markets and prompted stiff resistance from industry.

Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, read a statement from Mr. Trump on Wednesday saying that White House had spoken with the three largest auto makers, and that a one-month exemption would be given to cars coming in through United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement.

A one-month exemption is a joke. It takes years to move parts production from one country to another. There are hundreds of companies in Mexico, Canada and the U.S. which make the myriad parts that go into a car. It is an completely integrated industry which took years to build.

U.S. car manufacturers had trusted that U.S.M.C.A. would hold. Should the tariffs apply anytime soon they will have to increase their prices by hefty margins or halt their production.

Trump's tariffs in north America can largely be seen as pressure method for gaining some valuable concessions from neighboring countries. They are part of a negotiation scheme and unlikely to be a longer term problem.

But Trump's tariffs against China are a different animal. The Trump administration views China as a strategic enemy and would like to seriously hurt it. But China is able to hit back (archived):

Minutes after President Trump’s latest tariffs took effect, the Chinese government said on Tuesday that it was imposing its own broad tariffs on food imported from the United States and would essentially halt sales to 15 American companies.

China’s Ministry of Finance put tariffs of 15 percent on imports of American chicken, wheat, corn and cotton and 10 percent tariffs on other foods, ranging from soybeans to dairy products. In addition, the Ministry of Commerce said 15 U.S. companies would no longer be allowed to buy products from China except with special permission, including Skydio, which is the largest American maker of drones and a supplier to the U.S. military and emergency services.

Lou Qinjian, a spokesman for China’s National People’s Congress, chastised the United States for violating the World Trade Organization’s free trade rules. “By imposing unilateral tariffs, the U.S. has violated W.T.O. rules and disrupted the security and stability of the global industrial and supply chains,” he said.

Trump claims that tariffs on China are necessary to stop the illegal import of Fentanyl, an addictive synthetic opioid widely used in the U.S.

China counters that it already has put strong controls on Fentanyl and its precursor chemicals. It can not be blamed for a problem that solely exists within the United States:

The reason why the fentanyl issue in the US is so serious has never been external; it has nothing to do with China, which strictly prohibits drugs. Illicit fentanyl started to enter the US market as early as the 1980s. Later, media revealed that US pharmaceutical companies concealed the addictive properties of synthetic opioids and that doctors overprescribed painkillers, leading to widespread addiction among patients. Statistics show that with 5 percent of the world's population, the US consumes 80 percent of the world's opioids, but still has not permanently scheduled fentanyl-related substances as a class. The almost abnormal demand has boosted the development of the illegal fentanyl market, fundamentally contributing to the proliferation of fentanyl in the US.

The Global Times points to the social causes of drug addiction:

[T]he lack of social governance in the US has exacerbated the drug problem. US Vice President JD Vance described a similar situation in his autobiography. Many low-income families live in chaotic community environments with a lack of education and supervision. This has led to many children living in adverse conditions of drug abuse and trafficking, forming a vicious cycle that is difficult to break.

China's government spokesperson is promising to fight back:

Intimidation does not scare us. Bullying does not work on us. Pressuring, coercion or threats are not the right way of dealing with China. Anyone using maximum pressure on China is picking the wrong guy and miscalculating. If the U.S. truly wants to solve the fentanyl issue, then the right thing to do is to consult with China by treating each other as equals.

If war is what the U.S. wants, be it a tariff war, a trade war or any other type of war, we’re ready to fight till the end.

Such language from China is far from the usual one. It therefore seems unlikely that there will soon be a compromise between the U.S. and China.

With respect to Europe the U.S. claims that it is importing more goods from Europe than it can export to it. That is true but does not cover the full width of economical relations. The U.S. is exporting way more services (think software) to Europe than Europe is exporting to the U.S. The total of goods and services exchanges is a wash. If the U.S. insist on putting tariffs on European goods the EU can counter adding a toll to all U.S. services. The results would be, in theory, a tie.

Tariffs however are dangerous. They distort markets and add significant costs to all participants. Their pain will be mostly felt by U.S. consumers:

All the planned tariffs would take the US tariff rate to above 20% in just a few weeks, the highest since pre-WWI. As Joseph Politano points out, the costs of these actions are enormous, covering $1.3trn in US imports or roughly 42% of all goods brought into the United States, or the single-largest tariff hike since the infamous Smoot-Hawley Act of nearly a century ago.
…
The total costs of these tariffs would raise $160bn from US consumers and businesses paying more for their purchases of imported goods, with more to come. Trump’s Tuesday measures are only 40% of his proposed measures. If the next batch is implemented, it would raise the cost of imports to over $600bn, or 1.6% of GDP.
…
So worried is the International Chamber of Commerce in the US, that it reckoned that the world economy could face a crash similar to the Great Depression of the 1930s unless Trump rows back on his plans. “Our deep concern is that this could be the start of a downward spiral that puts us in 1930s trade-war territory,” said Andrew Wilson, deputy secretary-general of the ICC. So Trump’s measures may go well beyond “a little disturbance”.

Comments

scottindallas@1750 March 6
Assuming that you have driven to the Texas panhandle countryside and viewed the same feedlots with thousands of critters penned into a scene of “food” bunkers, mud and shit everywhere. They are being fed on composite foods consisting mainly of corn and soybean products…stuff which ruminants do not ordinarily eat…but if there is not a blade of green grass in sight…beefers and retired milk cows eat that crap to stay alive.
Ditto for Kali-Fornication countryside. There really is not much for grazing land in that state of shady affairs. Dairy production in Kali-Fornia…utter stoopidity. tender shoots of grass along with some hay during dry seasons are simply not economically up to that state’s inflated real estate values. NO FUKKIN way should there be dairy production in that state of congealed insanity.
Agricultural policy in this ruptured republic is all about being big and getting bigger all the time. Rank insanity. Those agribizzies “farm” far too many acres to actually CARE for the land and its inhabitants. But the biggest drug dealers right across the fruited plain is, of course, BIG PHARMA; along with all those agrochemical warfare producers and applicators love those profits…and so do the HMO’s who call themselves “health providers”.
The big LIE dominates this U$$A. It’s all about greed and profits for the entitled elite. They simply do not CARE about the land, the creatures and even the broad mass of deracinated and deluded humans.
It’s all SHIT…like those feedlots and the hamburger which originates in those outdoor concentration camps.

Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 6 2025 19:14 utc | 101

When zooming out of the current situation we get the following:
a) threats to leave NATO lead to a re-militarization of the EU (at least they are trying)
b) this will most likely result in way higher inflation (as modeled by Philip Pilkington recently [1])
c) a trade war with tariffs has a great chance of leading to a world wide depression
d) right-wing parties all over Europe (and in the rest of the West?) are rising
e) the required warmongering leaders are already place (think Führeress vdLeyen)
f) what else did I miss?
For me this all looks like a deliberate strategy for causing WW3.
[1] https://x.com/philippilk/status/1897576547910901841

Posted by: Zet | Mar 6 2025 19:15 utc | 102

@ Posted by: Observer | Mar 6 2025 18:35 utc | 79
If those imports are the result of capital exports, e.g. Nike hiring cheap Vietnamese labor and importing shoes back to the US from Vietnamese sweatshops, or GM outsourcing car parts manufacturing to factories in Mexico, then the money remains within the US at the end of the day, in the form of capitalist profits. In that case, you tax the profits of the capitalists to sustain welfare, infrastructure, and regulatory outlays.
Of course the entire capitalist economy is unsustainable and will, under the weight of its own contradictions, find its telos in either world communism and a globally planned economy, or imperialist war and the descent of humanity into barbarism.

Posted by: fnord | Mar 6 2025 19:15 utc | 103

Markw 95, perhaps, but… as a canuck replying, hear me when I say:
Y’all may make canadians into americans … but probably not in a way you will like!!

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 19:18 utc | 104

“The Trump administration views China as a strategic enemy and would like to seriously hurt it.”
Wrong.
The Trump administration views China as a competitor and would like fairness to be the lynchpin of their relationship.
This “hurt” thing is out the window as far as Trump is concerned.

Posted by: Johnny Dollar | Mar 6 2025 19:21 utc | 105

The US spent 20 years turning a blind eye to opium production in Afghanistan while it was occupying the country. During those years, it was estimated that 90-95% of the world’s opium was produced there. The Taliban quickly shut that down.
Now the US has decided to get all sanctimonious and self righteous about fentanyl, a synthetic opioid. This is beyond ridiculous and hilarious!!!
Instead of griping, the rest of the world should just point out US hypocrisy and make lots of fun of Trump and the US’ pretentious nonsense.

Posted by: JohnH | Mar 6 2025 19:22 utc | 106

migueljose | Mar 6 2025 19:13 utc | 100–
The ability to perform self-introspection is required for that and few Americans are so equipped.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 6 2025 19:22 utc | 107

It’s all about greed and profits for the entitled elite.
Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 6 2025 19:14 utc | 101
The real reason tarrifs wont work.

Posted by: Deniz | Mar 6 2025 19:24 utc | 108

Where do they plan to ship all their commodities, especially the crude oil? What are they going to do when American multinationals pare back their Canadian operations or shut them down entirely? Canada’s economy is basically a subsidiary of the United States. Now that we know President Trump isn’t bluffing, the moneyed interests in Canada are likely to collapse the government before letting Bay Street implode. They certainly won’t be cutting prices in the grocery stores.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Mar 6 2025 16:59 utc | 23
I know- right. Bloody crude oil doesn’t have a market… If we are lucky, there might be an economy or two that may condescend to buy our lousy crude oil. I’m sure that it will difficult to dispose of, given that everyone has windmills, solar panels and such to drive their economies (and trucks, trains etc)…
Great assessment re being a subsidiary of US corporations- because- just like the Russians, we all love to be obsequious boot lickers of the US firms- Need my Big Mac, my starbucks java, and my gas sucking F150. How- oh how, did those pesky Ruskies deal with all the love that they received from the US??? Maybe us moron canucks can take notes from others that have dealt with Uncle Sam.
Ya- Fuck the Yanks (this was taught at Queen’s MBA)

Posted by: Original Newbie | Mar 6 2025 19:28 utc | 109

Mark2@1802 March 6
F U C K the entire notion of large-scale production in the agricultural…correctly agribizzy massive production of mostly GMO based and chemical warfare infused faux food supplies…that even extends to genetically “modified” wheat. Ever since long ago Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz famously stated “Get Big or get OUT”…directed at American farmers..their successors (often heirs to farmland and then massively extended into former actual farms) have religiously followed that horrific advice.
Result: American foodstuffs are prohibited in Canada and most of Western Europe. Why? It’s all about greed, profits and shitty food which ultimately leads to more profits for Big Pharma and the HMO “Health” industry.
Unfortunately, we cannot revert to the traditional family farm system, one which I well remember from childhood into near middle adulthood. Only solution is for groups of refugees from American suburbs and even smaller cities will be to buy up some lands (cooperatively) and essentially recreate the agricultural success which was enjoyed by our ancestors for centuries…community owned farming areas belonging to all the residents of villages, the only sensible mode by which to preserve the land, produce healthy food and to raise children.
If things continue to metastasize into monster production operations there will be NO future for the vast majority of Americans. That is a given.

Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 6 2025 19:28 utc | 110

Another example of canadian playing tee-ball with the canadian gov/institutions:
These are not the bonds you are looking for

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 19:32 utc | 111

E@104…..maybe that’s why Trudeau is trying to disarm Canadian hunters and gun enthusiasts before they become Taxes North, with no Open Carry laws, awe shucks dag nabit!
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Mar 6 2025 19:37 utc | 112

In order to truly protect itself Canada must obviously withdraw from dangerous and costly US warfighting alliances such as NORAD, NATO etc. Otherwise it’s just an out of favour lapdog looking to jump back onto its American master’s lap.
Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 6 2025 18:04 utc | 64
That’s the interesting thing about this big theater. Canada has taken zero steps in regards to its own sovereignty.
No pushback against the American copyright regime. (Consider the Ecuador banana war)
No words on tariffs on Chinese EVs, imposed on the behalf of the Biden regime.
Huawei phones still banned. Apple products untouched.
And we’re stilll concerned about sending money to the “poor” Ukrainians even though we have the big bad USA supposed trying to annex us.

Posted by: Meh | Mar 6 2025 19:38 utc | 113

Napoleon’s attack on Russia ended with a victory parade by the French army in Paris.
Posted by: berthold | Mar 6 2025 17:33 utc | 43
Correction:
Napoleon’s attack on Russia ended with a victory parade by the Russian army in Paris in 1814.
Times have changed. Marching an army into Paris is hardly needed today, when with a few missiles you can hit the data centres of a countries’ banks and stop the economy.

Posted by: Passerby | Mar 6 2025 19:40 utc | 114

Aristodemos 110 , accurate! If not reversed, that is 10 straws that could easily break the camels back in the short to medium term … factory farming is lindy in the US but there are pockets of resistance … add in that the factory farms are run by immigrants that are no longer welcome (one more breaking contradiction of the system that is about to break)… also, reminded that commercial honeybees are apparently in dire straits in the US this year (though, perhaps, that is a commercial beekeeper tactic to juice their pollination contracts this year 🙂

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 19:42 utc | 115

Thers a new buzz term in farming and it wont be stopped.
Their will be the usal scoffers showing their ignorence.
Its called ‘REGENERATIVE FARMING’
The big cleaver farmers cant get on boared fast enough.
The classic test… manufactuers of the giant tractors and equipment are already on boared,
That says alot.
Oh and it dose what it says on the tin.
No weed killer costs no fertilizer needed.
Increased pruduction per acer, cattle too.
Downside your looking at ten years to become more econimacly profitable that what you’v got now.
Farming is long term planning.
Tariffs who knows ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 19:45 utc | 116

sean 112 🙂 could very well be… did u see, buried in a CBC article in January (I think) , where Canada, apparently, was handing over financial info of its citizens to the US? (as part of its anti-“money-laundering” fentanyl war)

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 19:46 utc | 117

111 should have titled that :
these are not the AMERICAN bonds you’re looking for

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 19:49 utc | 118

You don’t fix drug problems with trade wars. You fix drug problems by understanding why your society make people do drugs.

Posted by: Hiro Masamune | Mar 6 2025 19:50 utc | 119

The claim is tariffs will hurt the US consumer. Good. Hurt is good. The typical US consumer is a blob with several layers of extra fat and bloat that need to be burned off before you can begin to call it a healthy and viable entity. This country needs to cull at minimum thirty percent of its parasitic non-productive population. Violent repeat offender criminals, illegal aliens of every stripe, and Estonians (just to add an element of the absurd for laughs).

Posted by: comrade simba | Mar 6 2025 19:56 utc | 120

Dave Hansell@1817 March 6
Good perspective as to how the master-apprentice system works and has largely been obliterated. Perhaps huge salaries offered to machinists and all other traditional trades, both industrial and agricultural could bring in a few masters in their 60’s, 70’s and even eighties…to teach those of the younger generations who possess the horse-sense to realize that tactile proficiency will be essential for an economic renaissance.

Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 6 2025 20:03 utc | 121

Comrade simba @120
Violent repeat offender criminals !
That’l be the poititions, elite and rich then

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 20:05 utc | 122

If it were me I’d rather let 35 million people who are happy to join up into my tent rather than 30 million who are being dragged kicking and screaming along with 5 million who can pass for Americans but want retribution.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Mar 6 2025 18:50 utc | 87
Ya- with all due respect “35 million who are happy to join up” is absurd.
Join what? Corporate work hell? Corporate/for profit healthcare? Mindless broadcasting? Bottom of the barrel education? 1%/99% society? There is NOTHING, Zero, zilch, that is enticing in the US shithole. A few of my colleagues in finance might like the remuneration, so long as they stay away from the violent riffraff, and keep to their walled homesteads and their ski trips to Vail…the rest of us peasants can do without the crap the US is selling- one need but take a slow flip through all the index cards that summarize the benefits of US inclusion- Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc. Hard Pass.

Posted by: Original Newbie | Mar 6 2025 20:07 utc | 123

– Tariffs will make trade much more difficult / expensive for EVERYONE involved.

Posted by: WMG | Mar 6 2025 20:07 utc | 124

I’ve been in the market recently for two reclining chairs to replace our twenty-year-old La-Z-Boy recliners. US-built reclining chairs I’ve looked at are in the $700 each range. Looking further, I’ve found China-built reclining chairs with satisfied users at $129. Guess what chairs I’m buying. . . .It’s tariffic. (sorry)

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 6 2025 20:09 utc | 125

Deniz@1833 March6
Textiles: There may be a few smaller specialty mills which still produce high quality textiles…haven’t researched that. However, I’m somewhat informed on the Cordwainer industry…boots and shoes. Red Wing footwear is still produced in Red Wing,Minnesota. My #1 work boots are a pair of Redwings maybe 12 years ago. They require frequent oiling, but architecturally and mechanically they are strong, solid, well-produced footware.
There may be a number of those smaller, localized industries right across the fruited plain which can serve as templates for a gradually developing clothing renaissance.

Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 6 2025 20:09 utc | 126

@scottindallas
The progressive tax is felt directly by the American. The tariff is perceived as a price for protecting the American economy and agriculture.The customs tariff is simple to collect and is collected monthly, not annually.

Posted by: surena | Mar 6 2025 20:12 utc | 127

“Fox Host throws TANTRUM when car dealer says Trump tariffs will CRUSH him”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jlHejcVeCg

Posted by: WMG | Mar 6 2025 20:13 utc | 128

MiguelJose@1901 March 6
Those predatorial parasites such as Blackrock and Bill Gates are sitting and watching all those “Larrys” across the fruited plain who have bought into the high production levels of basically inedible GMO and chemically infused agribiz corn and soybean crops. Those moneybags are drooling over the prospect of owning almost ALL of those previously productive farmlands which have been “magically” transmuted into biological deserts.

Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 6 2025 20:16 utc | 129

Nonsense – the US industrial regions will greatly benefit from high tariffs on foreign made goods, especially steel and aluminum.
The Great Lakes and Ohio Valley regions have been absolutely devastated by the dumping of foreign made steel, iron and aluminum on US market without retaliatory tariffs.
Hundreds of thousands of good paying, union jobs have been lost due these dumping practices. Canada, the EU, India, Japan, China and the Ukraine have been major offenders. Numerous steel mills in Bethlehem, Johnstown, Sparrow’s Point, Lackawanna, South Buffalo, Detroit, South Bend and Chicago have been closed. Jobs lost in the steel mills, coke ovens, railroads, lake shipping, and mining just to name a few.
The US needs to stand up and defend its heavy industrial capacity undermined by the crazy greens and dementia patients like Joementia Biden, who incredibly removed tariffs on EU steel and then lied about the deed to union workers.
Well not to worry, there is a new Sheriff in town, he will protect American heavy industry against foreign, predatory competition. Live with it………..and screw Justine Trudeau, the new fascist darling……

Posted by: tobias cole | Mar 6 2025 20:16 utc | 130

and Estonians
Posted by: comrade simba | Mar 6 2025 19:56 utc | 120
—
You’ve misspelt Etonians.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 20:17 utc | 131

Nonsense – the US industrial regions will greatly benefit from high tariffs on foreign made goods, especially steel and aluminum.
Posted by: tobias cole | Mar 6 2025 20:16 utc | 130
—
Yes. Reward obsolete factories for being unproductive. That will fix them.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 20:21 utc | 132

aristodemos 129 – Red China, Blackrock and Gates………there fixed it for you. Agreed.

Posted by: tobias cole | Mar 6 2025 20:23 utc | 133

anybody heard of the new “flash” steel-making process … chinese development, I think
anyway, i’m sure you’ve heard by now, the mexico and canada tariffs are on hold for another month now

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 20:24 utc | 134

@tobias cole | Mar 6 2025 20:16 utc | 130
There is a labor shortage in the country . . . here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 6 2025 20:24 utc | 135

‘There Is No Border For Us’
https://x.com/JonSThompson/status/188361869114
“Trump’s tariffs represent an existential threat to resource-reliant First Nations in Canada.
If Indigenous-owned businesses tested the 230-year-old Jay Treaty, it could establish an inside track and dodge the costs.”
Jay Treaty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Treaty
“Article III states: ‘It is agreed, that it shall at all times be free…to the Indians dwelling on either side of the said boundary line, freely to pass and repass, by land or inland navigation into the respective territories and countries of the two parties on the continent of America…and freely carry on trade and commerce with each other…’
As a result of the Jay Treaty, ‘Native Indians born in Canada are therefore entitled to enter the United States for the purpose of employment, studies, retirement, investing and/or immigration…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 6 2025 20:27 utc | 136

‘There is no border for us’ (corrected url from above)
https://x.com/JonSThompson/status/1883618691147034981

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 6 2025 20:31 utc | 137

Tobias cole @ 130
Sadly this wont affect china india ectra.
Steel price and tariff are paid by the end user. New smeltig tecnecs need a fraction of the work force compared to old coke furness’s, i think its electric furness or smelting whatever that is.
Respect.
Tecno is moving fast we have to run to keep up.
This is already the case in south wales uk. Thousands of jobs gone this year. Replaced by a new prosess and computer.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 20:32 utc | 138

Jobs lost in the steel mills, coke ovens, railroads, lake shipping, and mining just to name a few.
Posted by: tobias cole | Mar 6 2025 20:16 utc | 130
—
The taconite mines are played out.
The anthracite (coking coal) is played out.
https://project.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/iron_ore__taconite.html
The era is over. The resources that made it possible have been consumed.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 20:32 utc | 139

Assuming that you have driven to the Texas panhandle countryside and viewed the same feedlots with thousands of critters penned into a scene of “food” bunkers, mud and shit everywhere. They are being fed on composite foods consisting mainly of corn and soybean products…stuff which ruminants do not ordinarily eat…but if there is not a blade of green grass in sight…beefers and retired milk cows eat that crap to stay alive.
——————————-
This the kind of dumb shit that gets posted on this board.
These are feedlots. The yearlings are sent there to fatten up. They didn’t grow up there. They were sent there and will spend about six months give or take before being sent to slaughter. Of course there is no grass in sight because IT’S A FEEDLOT, not a pasture.
As for some other assertions in these posts, the US has more marketable timber at this moment than at any point in the last 150 years. We have millions and millions of acres of it both public and private. The Canadians have undercut a lot of it by giving away timber for free on Crown lands. I can buy a 2×4 cheaper from Canada than I can one grown and milled within 50 miles of my house. And it isn’t wages. Canadian wages aren’t any less than here.
As for agriculture, if US foods are undesirable and won’t be purchased, drop your tariffs and lets see what happens.

Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 20:32 utc | 140

This the kind of dumb shit that gets posted on this board.
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 20:32 utc | 140
—
The worst beef I’ve ever had was from Texas. USDA prime.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 20:36 utc | 141

marketable timber at this moment than at any point in the last 150 years.
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 20:32 utc | 140
—
More bullshit!
When I was young I worked as a sawyer in Oregon. The good timber is gone. The river yards and pools are idle.
If there is “more marketable timber” its because your counting pulpwood for making paper.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 20:39 utc | 142

CullenBaker @ 140
That seems a fare comment.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 20:40 utc | 143

You don’t win by trying to outdo your competitors biggest advantage.
Posted by: Zet | Mar 6 2025 18:31 utc | 77
##################
That is incorrect. You have to challenge strengths, you may lose, but you have to test them. This isn’t a fringe thing, this is EVERYTHING. To not challenge China at all, is to surrender the war.
Supply chains are finite. Each one that America can lock up is one potentially denied to the Chinese later. That is what the Chinese have been doing to the West.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 20:40 utc | 144

The Trade War is On. Here’s What It Means To You
https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2025/03/06/Trade-War-Is-On-What-It-Means/
“Hoarding, higher prices and disruption in supply all are likely coming…”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 6 2025 20:41 utc | 145

And we’re stilll concerned about sending money to the “poor” Ukrainians even though we have the big bad USA supposed trying to annex us.
Posted by: Meh | Mar 6 2025 19:38 utc | 113

This has become a subject of mockery and ridicule by the Russian Foreign Ministry. Russian FM spokesperson Zakharova posed the question, (paraphrased) “How will Canada defend itself against the US attack when they’re over in Ukraine?” etc.
bwa ha ha ha. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel, … such an embarrassment of juicy targets. What a great help to the world would be a J Swift or a Sam Clemens.

Posted by: NH | Mar 6 2025 20:41 utc | 146

My last comment was about you last paragragh.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 20:42 utc | 147

john gilberts 136 …one cannot freely and soundly transact with loonies and benjamins… wen wampum revival?! 🙂

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 20:43 utc | 148

Always heartening to see that there are still true believers – in anything.
But the US is going down the tubes, no matter what Donald tries. They have outsourced most of their real manufacturing capacity, and what’s left is mostly ‘Boeingified’ into finance driven, engineering light irrelevance. As for the EU/UK – well, it’s probably nice for a while to be high on your own incompetence/irrelevance, but it can’t last. The plain fact is that the ‘west/waste’ is dying, and China and Russia are on an upward swing, with Africa waiting in the wings for its turn. They will now have to cope with the destruction of the environment and the end of cheap oil and cheap resource extraction, but at least they can try to do this without the terminal drag of the ‘waste’ which is bound for ‘glory’ – aka the big funeral parlour in the sky. Goodbye.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Mar 6 2025 20:48 utc | 149

Posted by: Vragtes | Mar 6 2025 18:41 utc | 83
##############
This working class stuff makes me giggle.
It relies on individuals not being individuals and surrendering their agency to an arbitrary “class” over which they have no control.
It’s like collective bargaining without accounting for how collective bargaining has been failing non-stop for decades.
The “class” people never talk about China or Africa. It is a Western theory for particular economies from particular moments in history. Like Tucker Carlson arguing with Ray Dalio that people should oppose the development of AI as the Luddites opposed cotton mills.
Learn from the Chinese. The answers are not in the past. They will be found in the future. That will take courage and ingenuity.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 20:48 utc | 150

@ Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 20:48 utc | 150
There’s a reason union workers are higher paid on average. Individual workers are operating with information asymmetries, giving them a worse bargaining situation. Union dealmakers know who’s getting paid what, and has leverage in negotiation through the ever-present threat of a strike. Coalitions matter. Individuals alone are weak. The right understands this in some ways better than the left, with church communities being highly conformist (this can be bad, for sure) and highly collectivist. Class is a really existing abstraction and the locus point of the most important struggles in our everyday lives. Perhaps the best thinker on this was Cornelius Castoriadis, aka Paul Cardan.

Posted by: fnord | Mar 6 2025 20:51 utc | 151

Posted by: Original Newbie | Mar 6 2025 20:07 utc | 123
I was referring to a hypothetical situation to make a point. No one in my social circles want anything to do with the USA.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Mar 6 2025 20:52 utc | 152

For more info, read:
https://braveneweurope.com/richard-d-wolff-michael-hudson-the-horizon-nears-on-americas-free-financial-ride

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Mar 6 2025 20:52 utc | 153

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 20:48 utc | 150
I have to say that while most of your posts are sensible and well informed, this latest is just right-wing capitalist propaganda, and not well composed at that.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Mar 6 2025 20:54 utc | 154

fnord 151… paid higher on average is great… IF, you are converting some of it to the permissionless coin that can not be named here… otherwise, you’ll get pummelled by currency debasement, like the rest of us, over the long-term

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 20:57 utc | 155

Love dombass @ 150
I can see a flaw in your point….
It makes the working and middle class redundent as human beings.
The age of the machene and AI
Thanks but no thanks.
And no thanks to agenda 2021, depopulation eugenics.
If we have to depopulate start at the top and work down.
Sereously.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 20:57 utc | 156

More bullshit!
When I was young I worked as a sawyer in Oregon. The good timber is gone. The river yards and pools are idle.
If there is “more marketable timber” its because your counting pulpwood for making paper.
————————————————
Bro, the entire southeast from East Texas to the Atlantic is full of pine plantations that grow like weeds. I’ve seen some of them that have been cut twice since the 80s, and no, it ain’t pulpwood. Unless you want it to be. A lot of the mills are set up for smaller stuff so it is cut younger. But let it grow another ten years is no problem.

Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:01 utc | 157

cut twice since the 80s
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:01 utc | 157
—
I rest my case.
https://www.google.com/search?q=3+log+load+&udm=2

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 21:08 utc | 158

cullen 157 that’s great! then you can turn all that patient hard work into printing your increasingly valueless benjamins with that

Posted by: E | Mar 6 2025 21:12 utc | 159

I know end the sanctions on Russia and slap a a big tariff on them 😁
Good night all i’l see myself out as well.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 21:16 utc | 160

LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 20:48 utc | 150
“It relies on individuals not being individuals and surrendering their agency to an arbitrary “class” over which they have no control…
The “class” people never talk about China or Africa. It is a Western theory for particular economies from particular moments in history…”

Thankfully China hasn’t been poisoned by the Western pathology of liberal “individualism”, one of the worst wrong turns humanity ever took.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Mar 6 2025 21:25 utc | 161

Bernhardt, it may be as you say, but something drastic must be done. Lets face it. China is completely dominant in manufacturing, particularly for the consumer market. China guards its own markets too heavily, whereas they have complete access to western markets. The US is in trouble. Serious trouble. China needs to be less greedy and understand it behooves all to create a climate of equal opportunity and profits. Or they can do as they are doing now and just in essence say ‘fuck you, its every man for himself’. On top of that is the disgusting truth tgat tgey flood the US with Fentanyl and other lethal drugs that more often than not kill or destroy the users (often very young people). They have shown little to no concern about this. So what to do in such a scenario? The choice is to whimper and die accepting the demise of one’s nation, or to fight back hard and go to war either economically or if that fails, militarily. To the best of my knowledge, Europe is in no great shape either.

Posted by: Áobh O’Shea | Mar 6 2025 21:31 utc | 162

China guards its own markets too heavily, whereas they have complete access to western markets.
Posted by: Áobh O’Shea | Mar 6 2025 21:31 utc | 162
—
Have you considered that to gain access to China’s markets you might need to be fluent in Chinese?
Chinese participants in Western markets have an excellent command of English (or the localized) language.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 21:36 utc | 163

cut twice since the 80s
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:01 utc | 157
—
I rest my case.
https://www.google.com/search?q=3+log+load+&udm=2
————————-
Why are you showing pics of old growth timber too big for any mill in operation today? You realize you don’t need a 36 inch butt to make a 2×4 right?

Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:37 utc | 164

Posted by: Dave Hansell | Mar 6 2025 18:17 utc | 72
The USA used to be a manufacturing and economic juggernaut, untouched in the entire world. Slowly and steadily, the globalist factions chipped away at this, removing all of this to places like China and turning middle America into a “rust belt.”
The USA was a manufacturing and economic juggernaught between the civil war and the 30’s depression when the USA had vast iron ore, coal, oil and forests to exploit and then again after WW2 when every other industrialized nation was destroyed by war. Today they have competition from other industrialized countries that are cheaper, richer in natural resources and more efficient and more innovative than the USA.
Why are there no American cars in Germany?
Because you make shittier cars than the Germans or the Chinese. No one outside the USA is going to spend $70k on a pickup truck.
Most American food products are completely banned in Canada (such as dairy). Countless other examples
Because we don’t want to get fat and full of cancer from food full or antibiotics and growth hormones. What you get in the USA is a lot of food for the money however the food you get is flavourless. Yes there is good organic food sold in the USA but that’s not what you’re trying to peddle up here. It’s the factory farmed shit that is simply crap food.
Manufacturing will rapidly come back to the USA. Wealth creation will come back. Jobs will come back.
That’s a pipe dream. You don’t control the supply chains for manufacturing in the 21st century and any manufacturing that does reshore will be for the most part automated by robots and machinery built in China.
Over the last 30 years China has had a policy of controlling the supply chains of every market sector they decide to enter. They’ve been investing the $800 B /yr trade deficit earned the on from making everything for the USA in mines, ports, railroads and ships. If you want to build silicon chips in the USA China is the sole source of refined silica in the world. same goes for the carbon used in solar panels, the lithium in batteries, the rare earth elements use in magnets and sensors of all kinds from proximity sensors to radars
Trump knows that the USA can make any product on earth. They don’t need products made by other countries
Not unless they find a source for the materials necessary to build the products at a competitive price and the skilled workers to build them.
For example the navy wants to increase the number of submarines being built in the USA by five times and Trump wants to begin building commercial vessles again. Where do you find the people to build them?
After the depression you had kids coming off the farms who could drive anything, fix anything and put in a 60 hour week doing hard labour and the ships they were building were relatively simple not the exotic high tech warships the USA builds today. Aside from that the USA used to teach industrial arts in high school. Welding up the alloys used in submarine hulls is very different from using a mig welder to fix a car body. It takes extremely skilled welders and the USA doesn’t have them … that’s just one trade.
I understand you’re proud of your country and have a lot of self belief. That’s admirable. You have to understand that the investor class sold your country out from under you because they didn’t want to spend money modernizing steel mills and factories and they didn’t want to pay union wages. There’s no getting it back now. When you lose the mills and factories you lose the jobbers like machinists, tool makers, foundries and maintenance mechanics and contractors that support them. Once they are gone the knowledge goes with them.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Mar 6 2025 21:39 utc | 165

Why are you showing pics of old growth timber too big for any mill in operation today?
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:37 utc | 164
—
You might want to peel big sheets for plywood, or didn’t you consider that?
https://youtu.be/Zj8gczpIMyQ
Also, old growth timber is free of knots and other defects in addition to being tighter grained, if you care about those qualities.
And maybe you prefer a big solid beam to a lamination.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 21:41 utc | 166

too scents | Mar 6 2025 21:08 utc | 158–
Between the lack of resources and lack of skilled labor, MAGA is a delusion; that past is in the past and it cannot be resurrected no matter how many times the mantra is chanted. But you know that as do most older barflies. It’s Carlin on the American Dream all over again. The cynic in me is saying it’s no use arguing with delusionalists, the flip-side being it’s useless to argue or provide ideas about improving the system when it’s completely broken and in need of replacement.
The world’s examples of how to govern are in Eurasia. The nation with a 5,000-year history knows it will use its resources in its rejuvenation process and it must now build what it will need in the future. The same applies for the nation with the 1,000-year history. Their neighbors observe and see the wisdom in their actions, so they associate together to accomplish similar goals. The North American Bully has no time for such thinking; it’s all what can we do to satisfy our thirsts now. Just as Trump can’t admit the Outlaw US Empire lost its war against Russia, he can’t say MAGA is unattainable because MAGA was his vehicle to power. Trump’s real agenda is the one he shares with the top 10%–make as much money from their leveraged buy-out of America as they can before their ruse is discovered.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 6 2025 21:47 utc | 167

Why are you showing pics of old growth timber too big for any mill in operation today?
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:37 utc | 164
—
You might want to peel big sheets for plywood, or didn’t you consider that?
https://youtu.be/Zj8gczpIMyQ
Also, old growth timber is free of knots and other defects in addition to being tighter grained, if you care about those qualities.
And maybe you prefer a big solid beam to a lamination.
——————————————-
Sure, old growth has its advantages. It’s also more difficult and expensive to log and mill. None of that has any relevance to your assertion that we do nor have millions of acres of marketable timber. We do. And its a renewable resource.

Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:50 utc | 168

HB_Norica | Mar 6 2025 21:39 utc | 165–
I stand and applaud, then give a low bow to your excellent remarks.
Trump is certainly a showman, but he’s no magician.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 6 2025 21:55 utc | 169

Trump reminds me of two things: Puffed pastry and the loud noise that comes out of a trumpet. He makes a lot of noise, largely about how great he, but it’s all just hot air as you find in the puffed pastry. Despite the pastry looking substantial after it is baked in the oven it has virtually no substance. Like many things American he resides a house of straw, as with the story of the three little pigs, not one of bricks. It is all talk and bravado, and projecting media fantasies just as they are created in Hollywood, but there is little substance in anything this man says or understands. Essentially I think he is a very lazy person – mentally speaking – who gets many to do his work for him under the constant threat of “you are fired” if you don’t make my ego and bank balance more splendid. There is little hope for Americans with this man in power, he does not hold the keys to the US’s recovery but helps again in taking the country further into disaster out of a false sense of its real level of power and capacity.

Posted by: George | Mar 6 2025 21:57 utc | 170

@ CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 21:50 utc | 168
—
I don’t know where to begin with your pompous ignorance.
Should it be with the clear cutting of Michigan to rebuild Chicago after the fire, and to make pre-fab cities that could be sent West on the new railroads?
Should it be with the redwood forests that were harvested to build San Francisco and Los Angeles?
Today’s “marketable” timber that twists like a pretzel in the sun is nothing to be proud of. Its good for chipboard and gluelams if you like the off gassing of urea-formaldehyde.
The truth is that the great and glorious forests of North America were harvested as quickly as was practical with no consideration about their replacement. And now we have shitty fast growing plantation wood.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 22:09 utc | 171

Posted by: George | Mar 6 2025 21:57 utc | 170
Who cares about US recovery? The rest of the world (apart from the US elites and their EU/UK parasites) want the USA to go down, down, down. Down to being a normal country which doesn’t have any more weight to throw around than anyone else. Down till the 1% are extinct and the normal people in the USA (assuming there are some left) can live as normal people with their neighbours. Down till the Pentagon and the MIC are dissolved into rank-smelling ooze. Etc. I’m sure you get the picture . . .

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Mar 6 2025 22:10 utc | 172

Engler: Amidst Donald Trump’s Belligerence…(& vid)
https://x.com/EnglerYves/status/1897494364198252786
“Canada continues to assist the US military and arms industry. In response to Trump’s hostility, Canada should cancel Lockheed-Martin’s F-35 contract, US officer exchanges and NORAD[and NATO].”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 6 2025 22:11 utc | 173

@ too scents
More hardwood timber east of the Mississippi than at any point in the last 100 years too.

Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 22:14 utc | 174

Well, Reagan”s nonsense, Bush I’s and Bush II’s nonsense all hurt us ordinary Americans. Bill Clainton, Republican in disgues, screwed all all thoroughly with his banking, welfare, prison, “reforms”. Why shouldn’t Trump tarriff “reforms” be different?
Every country gets the government it deserves. — de Maistre

Posted by: lester | Mar 6 2025 22:14 utc | 175

More hardwood timber east of the Mississippi than at any point in the last 100 years too.
Posted by: CullenBaker | Mar 6 2025 22:14 utc | 174
—
Sure thing. The wee Chestnuts are amazing.
The big trees are gone.

Posted by: too scents | Mar 6 2025 22:29 utc | 176

Jams o’Donnell @ 172
You can sign me up to that one.
Respect.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 22:35 utc | 177

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Mar 6 2025 20:54 utc | 154
###########
When I was younger, I took great joy in upsetting the closely held unexamined worldviews of others.
Several left-wing perspectives are just that.
I am a Muslim, making it impossible for me to be capitalist or right wing. Your preferred theories fail rigorous testing, that’s not my fault. It is the product of an incomplete ideology which any intelligent person of integrity would want to reconcile.
Surely someone can make class arguments from Africa, China, and Iran? Japan, Korea, Turkiye? If not, the universality and utility of such beliefs are lacking and confined to narrow practical application.
Think outside of the West and expand your understanding.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 22:37 utc | 178

Is the following controversial?
As a very simplified example the board game Monopoly illustrates some of the most basic traits of accumulation of wealth.
One of those is the concept of ever further extreme concentration of wealth: a game of Monopoly can not continue after someone has won (by accumulating all the Monopoly money from everyone else) unless one redistributes the wealth (by starting a new game).
Likewise if you want any system to work smoothly and be stable then there’s no choice but to in some way (many ways) continually and evenly redistribute wealth at a sufficient level.
The worse one does at this the closer one gets to some kind of collapse (social, demographic, economical, political, judicial, anything) including crime and war.
The entire world is quite bad at this.
This applies to systems at all levels including internationally (such as trade balances).
None of this is about names or ideologies and cheating doesn’t work.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 6 2025 22:37 utc | 179

@karlof and a few other posters working the theme of “it’s delusional to try to fix the U.S.”.
Karlof1 said: “it’s completely broken and in need of replacement”.
It’s most definitely _not_ completely broken, but I agree that some key parts truly are bollixed.
So let’s replace what’s broken. The main thing that’s broken is the U.S. society’s awareness of and will to force operational change at the policy and policy-implementation levels. The citizens don’t know what to demand; many of them are pretty pissed right now, and it wouldn’t take all that much to get them mobilized.
Is that not the horse our friend President Trump is riding? Do you think that horse is going to go away if the President shows he isn’t the one to ride it?
The rest of the stuff that you, and many others, claim is “irrevocably broken” seems to be:
a. materials access
b. manufacturing skill
c. cost of living, therefore wages need to be too high
The U.S. can get access to the same materials anyone else can. There is nothing particularly unique about China’s or Russia’s geology. Trade in materials is based on who’s buying, and at what price, and to-from logistics costs.
Manufacturing “skills required” is vastly different than it was in the 50s or even the 2000s.
A very big portion of advanced mfg’g is done by skilled designers at a workstation, and executed on a battery of manufacturing robots. All that “skill that left with the factory and not coming back” is a trope that’s been advanced by people …. that don’t currently do manufacturing.
Remember, most of the products made are _not_ submarines, or F35s or other mis-allocation boat-anchors. Ships, cranes, highways, buildings … even mfg’g robots themselves are composed of components that were actually manufactured by computer-controlled machines.
The key skills required are engineers (materials, mechanical, electrical) and their friends the CAD engineers (the ones that express the design in a form a computer (a robot) can execute. Modern factories don’t do that much manual welding, or manually do lathe, press, shear, bend, drill, or surface-finish work. It’s computer-controlled. The “manual” part is raw-materials handling and setup.
Can Russians and Chinese operate those design workstations? Indeed so, but so can we here in the U.S. The factories that do make it back into the U.S. will be some of the most advanced in the world, simply because they are the ones most recently built. The U.S. is a huge, profitable market; companies will indeed – and already are – locating here in order to serve the U.S. market as/when the tariff walls go up.
The cost of living aspect is, in my opinion, the most difficult to address, and this is precisely for the reasons Dr. Hudson explains: there’s too many wealth-concentration-taps draining off wealth from the core economic functions of housing, health-care, energy, communications, education … in addition to the Defense scams that bilk the public’s Federal budget, and mis-allocate our seed capital.
While the U.S. is most certainly currently afflicted with nearly-rotten leadership, may I point out that just a few short decades ago … so was China, and so was Russia.
All you historians: please rebut that last statement. Bad leadership afflicts nearly all societies, and when that leadership is the worst, everyone thinks it’s permanent.
Until it’s not. What will make it not-permanent? Knowledge and effort. And isn’t that why so many smart people come to MoA to learn and debate?

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Mar 6 2025 22:41 utc | 180

Posted by: HB_Norica | Mar 6 2025 21:39 utc | 165
############
Magnum Opus response. You kept it on point without personalizing it.
I don’t think many Americans have travelled abroad much.
So-called food in America lacks nutritional quality. Most countries maintain much higher standards, which bear out in health results.
#####
I don’t think that America can’t improve. I think it is going to take a sustained movement and a serious rethinking about American values to achieve it. Multiple Presidencies staying to the same focus. Zero room for partisan melodrama.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 23:01 utc | 181

Tobias Cole @ 130 and other comments on US steel industry.
The “Buy America” and pro tariff stance of the U.S. Steel industry and supported by the union is a fraud, and has been fit at least the 50+ years I have followed it. Starting in the 1960’s the steel industry in the US became increasingly financialized (owned increasingly by creditors) who minimized investment in modernization of the nation’s steel mills to the maximum extent, pushing existing equipment to its maximum extent and halting production of product lines in which it was not competitive with the new post WWII mills being built from the ground up in Europe and the developing world.
I worked at a basic steel mill in East Chicago Indiana from 1973 to 1987, in the slab mill and later (when an investment in modernization was finally made) in the continuous slab caster. Slabs are an intermediate product on the way to making sheet for cars, refrigerators, etc. The entire plant produced 2 million tons of steel annually when I started, with over 9,000 employees. When I left, production had reached 3 million tons but the work force barely reached 3000. The company Youngstown Sheet & Tube was owned by Lykes, a family of Florida citrus growers who used loans to buy YS&T and its holdings. As testified in Congressional committee hearings in the late 60’s, instead of modernizing the mills, the Lykes family invested in Mississippi River barges, becoming the largest such shipper, instead of reinvesting in its mills.
Lykes family leveraged the profits of both industries to become the 7th largest ocean freight company in the world during the 80’s and 90’s. Lykes shut down the Merchant Mill [steel shapes like angle irons] at my plant, dismantling it and selling it to New Zealand. The US Commerce Department records the cargoes of all vessels entering US ports; this record was available at the Chicago main library. Lykes ships were importing, not only “merchant steel” but also the same kind of slabs I was making everyday. At the same time the US steel industry was lobbying the Congress and President for tariffs against the import villains of the day:Japanese and German steel makers at that time.
Further finacialization in the industry proceeded. ‘My’ mill was bought by LTV, a military products aerospace company itself created via leveraged buyouts—via bank loans. If you want to understand modern US capitalism, read James Ling’s biography to learn how a two person electrical repair company can become a top ten military hardware company and top three steel producer in a decade.
US Steel, the giant of the U.S. industry and most efficient and profitable, also failed to adequately invest in steel in order to put the industry profits elsewhere. You may not recall when US Steel bought Exxon oil, changing its stock market code from USS to USX….
So, yes, Tobias Cole, the US steel disinvested in the previous steelmaking heartland of Western Pennsylvania and Eastern Ohio. I watched it happen during the time I was in the industry. At the time I thought the center of steelmaking was merely shifting to the Midwest, where it was more economical to put the few new blast furnaces and BOFs and occasional continuous caster at these slightly newer and more geographically centered plants. I was wrong, as the same local devastation has hit the steel centers of the Midwest.
Now it is not true that NO investment has been made in the industry. Many electric arc furnaces have been built in non-union areas of the country. Today 70% of US steel production is via electric arc furnaces using scrap steel—a far cheaper process than utilizing iron ore and coke from coal. I remember when NUCOR, the giant of the scrap steel business built its first plant. Point is, it’s all about profit maximization for financiers. What Too Scents says about the reduction of supplies of coking grade coal and iron ore is also true. My company boasted when it secured a supply of taconite ore in Minnesota [not surprised it’s played out now] and a source of iron ore in Venezuela that they later sold off. THINK ABOUT IT: in the event of a naval conflict with China, there will be an insufficient supply of both scrap and iron ore for a sustained conflict!!
Finally, an example from the recent election to illustrate that neither party understands the economics of world steelmaking. As part of the Biden “bipartisan” Inflation Reduction Act of 2022, Cleveland Cliffs Steel is to be given half a billion dollars of a two $billion cost to build a form of direct reduction iron facility in Middleton, Ohio. Direct Reduction Iron, DRI, uses a hydrogen source to reduce iron ore instead of the dirty, expensive, environmentally hazardous metallurgical coke. The project would employ 2600 construction workers and 176 permanent employees. One would think that JD Vance, who grew up in Middleton, would approve, but he only trashed the IRA during the campaign. One would think that K Harris, a supporter of the IRA, would have used Vance’s ignorance of the program to trash him during the campaign. But Harris was equally ignorant.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world is adopting the DRI process as fast as it can. 8% of Russia’s steel is made this way, and India, a much larger steel producer utilizes the DRI process for 35% of its steelmaking.
Re: Flash Steelmaking: Flash Steelmaking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuOVQziQ5c. seems to me a feasible method that will be implemented over the next 15 to 20 years. The US will be at best a late adopter.

Posted by: mjh | Mar 6 2025 23:02 utc | 182

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Mar 6 2025 22:41 utc | 180
Exactly. We are discussing the United States, not Zimbabwe.

Posted by: Deniz | Mar 6 2025 23:04 utc | 183

Dave Hansell | Mar 6 2025 18:17 utc | 72
This was the more intelligent response to my comment, but they are all variants of what I would call European doomerism. “Never bet against America” is the famous quote. Yes, she’s been beaten, kicked, pillaged, attacked, but she’s not quite dead yet.

President Trump announced Monday that a leading Taiwanese semiconductor chip company plans to invest $100 billion in new manufacturing plants in the U.S.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, or TSMC, is one of the world’s largest manufacturers of semiconductor chips, and plans to make the major investment over the next several years.

While I suppose the factories are not running yet, this is proof positive that they are trying. You very much over-exaggerate the importance of the rank and file workers. It’s the engineering that is the key. American engineering has lost much over the years, but I think a core strength and tradition does remain that could be ignited under the right circumstances. American work ethic, work culture, and a culture of optimism will do the rest. If allowed to, American business can absolutely BURY the E.U. with their 10 weeks a year of vacations and endless bullshit regulations and red tape.
It all comes down to how effective Trump can be unshackling the American economy from all the years of globalist and leftist destruction. At least he’s trying and not being content to “own nothing and eat the bugs” like the Europeans. Those are the two divergent paths being offered humanity right now: the misery, poverty, endless war, and doomerism of Starmer, Macron, and the Eurocrats versus the optimism and freedom and colonizing Mars being offered by Trump. Who would willingly want the former?

Posted by: Moonraker | Mar 6 2025 23:06 utc | 184

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Mar 6 2025 22:10 utc | 172
I agree, and “get the picture”. Trump is currently the captain of the Titanic, a role he suits perfectly, except he’ll never go down with the ship, that’s for the ignorant masses to put up with.

Posted by: George | Mar 6 2025 23:12 utc | 185

Posted by: fnord | Mar 6 2025 20:51 utc | 151
###########
Class is not an everyday struggle in my life. I have different concerns. Interestingly, many of the people who work from a class lens don’t seem to have a spiritual framework, a framework which is fundamental to how I perceive reality.
I understand class theory well enough to see the blindspots and contradictions.
China and Russia have dramatically improved the quality of life for workers without mass unionization. Surely those results are worthy of note?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 23:13 utc | 186

Tariffs can’t quickly remedy trade deficits. And the dash for gold signals a shorter term balance of payments crisis, Federal insolvency with all that might imply and an earlier end to dollar reserve status than expected. No wonder Donald is fielding the axe and trying to offer MAGA culture war scalps. There won’t be meat on the table.

Posted by: Tim Putnam | Mar 6 2025 23:17 utc | 187

@Posted by: Áobh O’Shea | Mar 6 2025 21:31 utc | 162
China does not “guard its own market too heavily”, it has numerous free trade agreements, allows foreign companies to operate widely, and the tariffs it has are in line with many other countries. It has also been a member of the WTO since 2000.
A good example is cars, where foreign manufacturers absolutely dominated until relatively recently. China invited in Tesla to help kick start its move to EVs, which had been helped by its industrial policy. The companies that have excelled are all private companies, BYD, Geely and Xiaomi plus startups like Xpeng, Nio and Leap Motor. China required significant local production, just as the US has with respect to foreign manufacturers. Same story with smart phones, food franchises, etc. Competition within China is absolutely brutal, creating extremely competitive winners such as Huawei, Xiaomi, BYD, and Luckin Coffee.
It was the US corporate executives who decided to source good from, and build plants in, China to reduce their costs (i.e. lay off millions and drive down US wages). Just as they had when they moved production to the “right to work” states, then Mexico, then China, Bangladesh, Vietnam etc.
The real difference is that China has a long term industrial development policy that takes in the whole society and its state operates for the benefit of the nation not the oligarchs.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Mar 6 2025 23:19 utc | 188

Posted by: Deniz | Mar 6 2025 23:04 utc | 183
###########
Depending on how the next 30 years go, there is a possibility that Zimbabwe will have a brighter future than much of the West.
Many of Zimbabwe’s problems came from the over-the-top punishment of Mugabe for having the courage to fight colonialism.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 23:19 utc | 189

Oddly short sighted perspective B. I’ve come to expect better though I know you’re no economist.
Thought game: What if Trump’s strategy is cohesive and tariffs but one thread in a more complex web? I know it’s easy to under estimate him, just look at the utter debacle engulfing the Democrats, the eurocrats, the liberals and entitled all over the world. Must be an accident.
Fly up a few hundred thousand feet and look again. Trump, imo, is seeking to break a sclerotic global power structure we know as the blob. The blob includes US interests, European interests and Asian interests, working jointly to rip everyone one off and ruin those who speak against that practice. They have no compunction with releasing bio-weapons against the entire world and then profit seeking by forcing people to take an experimental gene therapy all in the name of profit.
So team Trump is upsetting a lot of rotten apple carts, all over the world. And more power to him I say. That’s not to say his tactics, nor the consequences of his actions are without risk, error, hubris.
The thing is – We’re ALREADY suffering. Let the sunshine in and DOOM to the Statists and narcissists the entire EU claque, etc. aka the blob. fuck ’em.

Posted by: whocanibenow | Mar 6 2025 23:20 utc | 190

All’s well that ends well. Feb 2025 will be known as the time european imperial control finally died. Either back to the renaissance (unlikely) or the dark ages-ish.

Posted by: Sal | Mar 6 2025 23:24 utc | 191

@Deniz | Mar 6 2025 23:04 utc | 183
The fact that you’re all in denial and think to fix it, should I say -make it great again- only makes it more fun for the rest of the world.
Those slogans evoking a glorious past are not surprisingly used by fascist exactly when a country is circling the drain. Wishful thinking.
Your time is over and it will only get worse, not better.
You also don’t realise all you had, like we in EU, came from stealing, looting and whatever unfair advantages gained through violence.
Easy to buid an economy.
Never from being some great fair playing competitive country. And that bullying power is gone too.
The US is like a spoiled brat that never learned a trade and living of allowance all his life.
But now that his trustfund is gone he hasn’t got the skills to look after himself.
Having tantrums out of frustration and impotence, but no one will give him what he wants.
Bound to end up on the streets.
Most amusing.

Posted by: Ed Bernays | Mar 6 2025 23:28 utc | 192

I might be wrong but…
I dont think i’v read anyone mention the simple truth that particulaly greedy american capilists, were the very people who closed down there heavy industry’s to capilize on cheap labour abroad.
Thats was sucssesfull.
Now it came back to bite them (US)
Exsactly the same with thatcher in britain .
And here we are.
Karma.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 23:29 utc | 193

@Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 23:13 utc | 186
The revolutionary victory of 1949 lead to the removal of the Chinese oligarchy, and was a class struggle – the peasantry against the corrupt profiteering rulers. The Party-state has extensive processes of public consultation and input and bureaucratic accountability, as well as unions that are integrated with the Party and have representation at the board level in each corporation. In such a structure, independent unions are not allowed as the Party-state is seen as the representative of the people.
In capitalism unions are required to offset the power of the bosses and their unions (corporations and corporate associations). Such unions can become tame, focused only on purely workplace remuneration and conditions issues, or more revolutionary as many were in the nineteenth century. In the US they were tamed by both state and employer violence, implementation of laws in the bosses interests, and leader co-option. Without such unions the workers are powerless in the face of concentrated capitalist exploitation. Its why the oligarchy hate unions. From the 1970s onwards, they destroyed nearly all of what was left of US unions.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Mar 6 2025 23:29 utc | 194

Does Trump at all realise that China produces around 54% of the world’s steel while the US only produces 4%? Even the next closest country compared to China – India – produces only around 7%. Even if the US increased its production how can its labour and production costs match those of China?

Posted by: George | Mar 6 2025 23:35 utc | 195

Does Trump *rally* believe that tarriffs will be people by foreigners, not Americans?

Posted by: lester | Mar 6 2025 23:36 utc | 196

Tariffs are effective at protecting domestic industry, not necessarily fostering its creation (or recreation in this case). But most importantly, they’re only going to be effective in conjunction with an industrial economy, which also almost always means public investment in the infrastructure to support an industrial economy.
The U.S. is no longer an industrial economy. It’s a finance economy, dominated by FIRE that wants the biggest profits fastest. So a mine with huge initial investments and a long payback time is of no interest. Nor are the wages that a developed, industrial economy would pay. The whole economic point of the last 30 years has been to get away from industry. Clinton used to say that all the factory workers would be retrained into service workers. By service I don’t necessarily mean flipping burgers. Services include consulting, financial services, administration, etc etc.
Industry requires loads of skilled tradespeople to keep a factory or a mine operational. There aren’t nearly enough skilled tradespeople in the U.S. for the construction sector. Making enough of them would take a generation, minimum. It would take convincing kids to go into trades instead of college (not what the FIRE sector wants and a reversal of two generations of social pressure).
So if Trump were doing all the other things that are / would be needed, an argument for tariffs could be made. Without them it’s standard American MBA sort of magical thinking bullshit.

Posted by: Lex | Mar 6 2025 23:37 utc | 197

I’v got it.
Now it makes sence.
Why did’nt i see it sooner.
Clear as day.
I’ll give you all till top of the hour.
Its plain as the nose on me face.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 6 2025 23:37 utc | 198

Posted by: whocanibenow | Mar 6 2025 23:20 utc | 190
##########
b was providing a starting point for discussion.
Friends, these are just ideas regarding events none (or few) of us can influence.
Don’t confuse watching a movie with being in the movie.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Mar 6 2025 23:40 utc | 199

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Mar 6 2025 23:19 utc | 188
“The real difference is that China has a long term industrial development policy that takes in the whole society and its state operates for the benefit of the nation not the oligarchs.”
Exactly.
And China is not afraid to slap down its billionaire class if they get to cheeky and hope to turn the country into US-style neoliberal capitalism. Jack Ma is the perfect example.

Posted by: George | Mar 6 2025 23:42 utc | 200