|
The Oval Office Shouting Match – Wrap-Up
The first 40 or so minutes of yesterday's oval office press talk (vid) went quite normal. Questions were asked and replies were given in general form, addressing the public. There was some mild banter. But then a breakdown (vid) occurred:
It was all destroyed when JD Vance, the US vice-president entered the conversation to declare: “The path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy.
“We tried the pathway of Joe Biden of thumping our chest and pretending the Potus’s words counted more than Potus’s actions,” he declared.
To anyone who has spent time in or around the Ukraine war, such airy talk of “diplomacy” – as if it means anything without hard force to back it up – is exasperatingly naive.
Mr Zelensky should probably have let it slide. But he was not taking it.
“Can I ask you?” he asked, leaning towards Mr Vance.
“Sure,” replied Mr Vance.
…
“What kind of diplomacy, JD, are you speaking about? What do you mean?”
It was a mistake.
There followed a barrage of invective about Ukrainian ungratefulness – in front of the world’s media.
For anyone who remembers how the whole Ukraine conflict was initiated by the U.S., the hypocrisy played out here is overwhelming.
How can one, as Trump and Vance do, lament that the war has destroyed Ukraine and led to countless people dying for no good cause and, at the same time, demand that Ukraine be thankful for all the 'advice', weapons and money the U.S. has given in first place to drag Ukraine into a war and to wage it.
But Zelenski wasn't upset about U.S. hypocrisy. He was upset that he was told to make peace.
The bad mood he was in had already festered for some time. In late 2023 Simon Shuster had portrait Zelenski for Time:
On my first day in Kyiv, I asked one member of his circle how the President was feeling. The response came without a second’s hesitation: “Angry.”
…
[M]ost of all, Zelensky feels betrayed by his Western allies. They have left him without the means to win the war, only the means to survive it.
But his convictions haven’t changed. Despite the recent setbacks on the battlefield, he does not intend to give up fighting or to sue for any kind of peace. On the contrary, his belief in Ukraine’s ultimate victory over Russia has hardened into a form that worries some of his advisers. It is immovable, verging on the messianic. “He deludes himself,” one of his closest aides tells me in frustration. “We’re out of options. We’re not winning. But try telling him that.”
Trump and Vance tried to tell him – Zelenski exploded. Some say this was trap or set up. I and others disagree. It was Trump who wanted the 'mineral deal' to be signed. Why would he sabotage that?
It would have been easy for Zelenski to not react to Vance's interdiction but he instead started a fight. He even might have dreamed of a knock out.
The incident, in full view of the U.S. public, will allow Trump to drop Ukraine as the bad asset that it now is. As I commented yesterday:
What will Trump do now?
Best guess:
- He will walk away from Ukraine. (No rare earth deal or anything else.)
- Europeans will be ignored (Macron had urged him to meet Zelenski —> bad!)
- He will make a deal with Russia. Rare earth, lifting sanctions and much more.
There seems to be no regret by Zelenski who has failed to apologize.
Meanwhile USAID has stopped repairs of Ukraine's energy grid. Other U.S. support is highly endangered:
Trump administration press secretary Caroline Leavitt stated that the U.S. will no longer provide military assistance to Ukraine because their priority is peace negotiations. This decision came after the controversy during Zelensky’s visit.
"We are no longer going to just write blank checks for a war in a very distant country without a real, lasting peace," Leavitt said.
Zelenski hopes that Europe will back him. But while some European bots claim to stand by Ukraine they have neither the men, money nor weapons to do so. There is no European unity on it:
Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are 'very unhappy' they were betrayed by being excluded from tomorrow's Ukraine summit in London. They 'have a plan… but they weren't invited' – Sky News
Zelenski will have to go – one way or the other. His former advisor, the slimy Oleksy Arestovych, is already offering himself as replacement:
Arestovych @arestovych – 14:03 UTC · Mar 1, 2025
– Zelensky is not just proposing war – he’s proposing war without weapons.
He weakened the army (failed 55% of the defense procurement plan), lost U.S. support, and divided the country.
Without him, Ukraine would fight better and make peace faster and more effectively.
I stand for peace.
There is a way out – Zelensky, step down.
The Russians are the big winner in this. Ukraine is in a scuffle with its main sponsor. The western alliance has splintered. The enemies' frontline is falling apart.
Russia is opposed to Trump's main demand of a cease-fire along the current frontline. But Zelenski is blamed for sabotaging it.
I do not see how Zelenski can escape from this.
Failed mineral deal by resource raping multinational capitalists, illusion of goodwill, lacked honest integrity, demanded total surrender, by nonphysical participant, that which kievs been fighting against, revealed endless battlefield of minds, land, in trenches & frontlines not just by opposing armories but external vested interests. Spilled dark blood hijacking, by spoiled rich opportunists, wearing makeup, in ugly designer suits. Upset anyone dare resist the 100 year enslavement roadmap, to further sabotage the region, for next statue toppling toward Moscow, just another form of destabilization strategy. Agitated, blood red tie war party, hiding behind the fake reframing of ‘peace’, is pathetic, historically delusional, template of failed empire. Exposed desperate owned superpower under duress. Incompetent politicians insanity art of deflection, amateur method of blaming, name-calling, a form of narcissistic behavior, clear indication of weakness, a disorder, by definition, fragile unstable ego, easily manipulated & materially bribed. Immature populous fangirls always hungry for psywar programmers delusions, feeding any selfish temporary team win, regardless of self inflicted consequences by red blue distraction, & prioritize culture diversion tactics instead of generational cycles of starvation of life, a disliberty unlike ever before. Their depressed traitorous leaders subjection fully televised, owned by external monied controllers evident worldwide; chosen, not elected, by foreign interests, not gifting golden pagers as trophy’s, but as urgent timeline warnings, dictorial by threats, of fullfilling bobbleheads prophecy bringing total destruction on exact specific timeline scheduled, or else those standing around, would eerily replace the temporary face of pain
Posted by: meow | Mar 1 2025 19:41 utc | 107
@607 Milites previous thread
@unimperator this thread (inc. UK)
@hubert
The more realistic way to look at it though is not what EU is not capable of, or where it exaggerates, but what it is actually up to and succeeding with.
This has been its history time and again, and it should be learned by now. EU cannot, EU will fail now, EU is pathetic…maybe, but we have also heard this many times before and based on various paradigms.
Yes, EU is corrupt and destructive to nation states, is regionalist or globalist, has fascist or nazi tendency, is lined with kleptocrats and submissive politicians, projects false ideals etc.
However the “long march” is steady, incremental appropriation of all facets of governance is a reality. Attempts, pullbacks and reorganisation, new attempts – all of it dressed and covered by hype of some kind.
In other words to say “EU cannot round up an army anywhere near as capable as US or Russia” is not what it is about. Instead – establishing a stronger EU security apparatus and control via that. Instead they round EU national identity into a contra-russia contra-us affair. Instead they will occuppy the political dialogue for years on this – “the need to stand and act together” , as witnessed. It is understandably beyond the comprehension of many that “their leaders” would initiate or back the slaughter of others with such “modest ends” in mind, but their view is very very different though, their “realities” are not ours. “They all fully support Ukraine” with our money, with the lives of Russians and Ukrainians , and if necessary with their own citizens lives also.
When economic or social bankruptcy of the continent is talked of, and desperation – yes, but these are carefully cultivated cultures of dependency on state authority and feed into providing it with further command. Nationalisation is now via and towards EU due to all funds being controlled by EU under the current monetary system. The continent is in a much better shape to wage a large war than a hundred years ago, and we are all well aware of how that ended I think.
Someone earlier also made reference to ww1 and ww2 parallels… well we have to ask how is it so many people in countries that in those days considered themselves civilised and modern, ended up slaughtering each other…or from own experience, wars just start impromptu where you have not the time to assimilate more than is fed via msm. That is the red black pill, balanced by the blue pink pill of regional or global “harmony” at the cost of a local dictatorship of a kind.
I’m not at ease with what I am seeing going, and the risk of direct EU conflict is real, because we just don’t know the levels of trust or what wild cards exist.
It won’t be nuclear because of US out now ? We don’t even know that, nor at what point US might step back in. Analogy of ww2 again, US was seen as considering entering on German side at one point.
In EU, any protests against backing war against Russia over previous years ? Not really, any dissent is suppressed by apparatus.
How tempted are we, the safety of multitude tinged by surrounding fears, the visions of right glorifying mundane representations of humanity, all to a backdrop of sponsored suffering ? Or else.
Sickening, they deserve to be put on trial for complicity to murder, to be sent first to the front lines, not excused as unwilling muppets or as being controlled by external forces.
People should maybe watch where those own forms of semi complicity lead, because equally they will not find themselves also exused in return, but instead be obliged to decide, or defend, their half beliefs or theories, in a fully staged real world arena of conflict.
To my view, the recent rejection of “the deal”, whoever it was actually by, is to highlight US demands for Ukrainian concessions to Russia for peace. It sets the tone, aparts US to its own territory with regard, but also allows Ukraine to bolster Eurohawk participation and public sympathy. Ergo, Ukraine will not be welcomed back to US involvement until it returns with an attitude that accepts concessionary peaceful resolution with Russia. That is the “guarantee” Ukraine really needs, and it has been on the Ukraine table for a long time.
I’m just firing off my thoughts without proof reading for this comment , for not having space to compose etc. , just because, just to counter how easy it is to accept certain definitions without contest.
Posted by: Ornot | Mar 1 2025 19:50 utc | 109
Whatever the case, and only the stars can tell, but they are forever silent, is that either Trump is an incomparably better actor than Ukraine’s most famous thespian and present president, or Zelensky is a true master of cinema verité, whereby the best acting is ironically often the most grating and seemingly incompetent in words and actions. From Wikipedia:
“Cinéma vérité can involve stylized set-ups and interaction between the filmmaker and the subject, even to the point of provocation. Some argue that the obvious presence of the filmmaker and camera was seen by most cinéma vérité filmmakers as the best way to reveal the truth. The camera is always acknowledged, for it performs the act of filming real objects, people, and events in a confrontational way. The filmmaker’s intention was to represent the truth as objectively as possible, freeing the viewer from deceptions in how those aspects of life were formerly presented to them. From this perspective, the filmmaker should be the catalyst of a situation…”
The article goes on to say there’s little consensus among directors and actors on what this actually means. But who can doubt that the political phenomenon in question was cinema verité at its most acute, involute, and self-revealing? The insoluble question is whether it was limited to the uroboric or actually autophagous, i.e. self-devouring in intent and, more umbrous yet, developmental course? Certainly the latter presents an empirically accurate description of not only the Ukrainian state, but, mutatis mutandis, the EU and possibly the NATO project as a whole. Trump presents as a corrosive and acidic agent that is also purifying and detoxifying at the same time: his opponents impute to him the title of epitome of toxic politics, an antediluvian asp or viper of toxic masculinity and imperial fascism. Yet, was it Aristotle himself who noted that the difference between medicine and poison is at essence a question of dose?
So too with politics, not least of all the so-called democratic sort, which must perforce containing an essential element of theater. The problem, seemingly, is that throughout the Western world the theatrical element has become increasingly absurd, surreal, dadaist, Orwellian, and simulacral, thereby bleeding into and feeding off of so-called reality out right, so that the public mind not infrequently no longer trusts even in the particular veracity of (a) life or death (both in the case of the “magnates” and the veritable unknowns). The meta theater of Zelensky showing Trump pictures of alleged Russian atrocity victims, if that it was, would always have been histrionic, in the etymological sense, within a public political context, but now with AI/LLMs it has been all but fatally exsanguinated of its empiricalness; vampirically deprived of truth effect by the machines that hold the promise of a new oligarchic mastery founded and grounded on the undecidability of truth at a quantum level (“quid est veritas” indeed!).
This could only serve remind and aggravate the natural conspiratorial suspicions to which Trump’s typical psychology has long been prone. Which might well have brought to mind the lingering doubts about who committed the Maidan protestors massacres in 2014; or whether the Azov Brigade were more invaders than defenders in Mariupol even before the Russian Special Operation; or what precisely are the conditions of freedom of speech (including not least of all Russophone-linguistic rights) or religious liberty in Ukraine, not only arising from the conditions of the present war, but again even antedating the Russian invasion stricto sensu; or who and ultimately what larger decisional structures were responsible for the destruction of Nord Stream, an existentially vital strategic asset of an axial state of the NATO order?
So when Zelensky said, “Even you. But you have *nice ocean* and don’t feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless…God bless… God bless… You will not have the war…” Which sounded infelicitously too on the nose, like a buffoonish/cartoonish rendition of the old timey’s mafioso’s refrain, “Nice home you got their, shame if anything…” Well, that’s when the improv comedian’s “brilliant “repartee reached the apotheotic heights of diplomatically criminal incompetence, per its utter epistemic groundlessness and simultaneous grotesque passive aggressiveness. To wit, the threat implicit in the diminutive comedian’s gargantuan mendacity: “große Lüge” indeed.
This psychological trainwreck show of disrespect by Zelensky in the personal proximity of Trump, qua POTUS, in the physical literality of Trump’s presidential office, before a live American audience of potentially millions, including in vivo and eventual millions who are among the most devoted of Trump voters and supporters, was a bridge too far, la dernière goutte, before Trump’s cup of patience and tolerance overflowed (“la goutte d’eau qui fait déborder la vase”). One might say Trump himself instinctually at that point went with his psyche’s emotional flow by cutting Zelensky off while not losing altogether presidential presence or equipoise, within the context of Trump being Trump. But of course who can yet say whether this spectacle will prove little more than a storm in a White House teacup or the acceleration of Zelensky’s heretofore glacially slow motion fall from the sky sans parachute.
Posted by: Ludovic | Mar 1 2025 22:28 utc | 186
Failed mineral deal by resource raping multinational capitalists, illusion of goodwill, lacked honest integrity, demanded total surrender, by nonphysical participant, that which kievs been fighting against, revealed endless battlefield of minds, land, in trenches & frontlines not just by opposing armories but external vested interests. Spilled dark blood hijacking, by spoiled rich opportunists, wearing makeup, in ugly designer suits. Upset anyone dare resist the 100 year enslavement roadmap, to further sabotage the region, for next statue toppling toward Moscow, just another form of destabilization strategy. Agitated, blood red tie war party, hiding behind the fake reframing of ‘peace’, is pathetic, historically delusional, template of failed empire. Exposed desperate owned superpower under duress. Incompetent politicians insanity art of deflection, amateur method of blaming, name-calling, a form of narcissistic behavior, clear indication of weakness, a disorder, by definition, fragile unstable ego, easily manipulated & materially bribed. Immature populous fangirls always hungry for psywar programmers delusions, feeding any selfish temporary team win, regardless of self inflicted consequences by red blue distraction, & prioritize culture diversion tactics instead of generational cycles of starvation of life, a disliberty unlike ever before. Their depressed traitorous leaders subjection fully televised, owned by external monied controllers evident worldwide; chosen, not elected, by foreign interests, not gifting golden pagers as trophy’s, but as urgent timeline warnings, dictorial by threats, of fullfilling bobbleheads prophecy bringing total destruction on exact specific timeline scheduled, or else those standing around, would eerily replace the temporary face of pain
Posted by: meow | Mar 1 2025 19:41 utc | 107
I would suggest taking lessons in spacing, grammar, spelling, punctuation and general intellectual coherence. Are you a Dadaist?
Posted by: Tichy | Mar 1 2025 22:54 utc | 196
|
