Musing About Europe Without NATO
Tonight Trump will address Congress. There are unconfirmed rumors that he will announce a U.S. exit from NATO.
Now that would be a bummer for the Europeans.
During the last 80 years European leaders never had to think strategically about their own nations' security. The U.S. and USSR did that for them.
How would or should Europe look without NATO?
Over the last eight decades NATO and the U.S. (and until 1990 the Warsaw Pact and Russia) have largely prevented wars between European countries. The continent - where nations have been at war with each other for centuries - could easily fall back into that bad habit.
Just look up what Polish revisionists think of Germany and how that country is re-building its army ...
As a German I understand that my country is, financially and size wise, the biggest dog in the European pack (ex Russia). It would be wise for it to declare absolute neutrality and to refrain, like Austria, from joining any alliance. Its army, based on a short conscription of every men, should be stationed and act only within its own borders.
That done it would be time to launch a new Concert of Europe (incl. Russia):
... a general agreement among the great powers of 19th-century Europe to maintain the European balance of power, political boundaries, and spheres of influence. Never a perfect unity and subject to disputes and jockeying for position and influence, the Concert was an extended period of relative peace and stability in Europe following the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars which had consumed the continent since the 1790s.
The last concert did not keep the continent at total peace but it prevented crises from escalating beyond narrowly defined borders. In that respect it lasted from 1820 up to the start of the first World War.
To conduct such a concert would probably require another Prince Metternich or Otto von Bismark. There is however no such person in sight. (Lavrov would be good at that job but he is Russian, too old and otherwise committed.)
The EU bureaucracy in Brussels has neither legitimacy nor competence in inner-European or international security issues.
Don't count on it when NATO is out.
What are other alternatives?
Posted by b on March 4, 2025 at 20:08 UTC | Permalink
next page »As a cat having served multiple NATO tours, (two in Germany) I will query "what happens to the pay checks of all the many thousands of local nationals working in supporting rolles on all those NATO bases after the DoD funding is gone?" ...danka, b
Posted by: Ering46z | Mar 4 2025 20:16 utc | 2
I believe Trump would need the approval of Congress to exit NATO.
As for what Europe should do, should NATO dissolve: that is irrelevant so long as von der Crazy, 008 Stormer, Micron and other Western European leaders remain in place (I mean YOU Merz).
It will be years before these and other globalist/apparatchik "leaders" plus their power structures - all traitors to their respective national interests are removed.
Fortunately, Western Europe is almost completely demilitarized, budget constrained and with not supportive populations.
I don't see anyone with the drive, charisma and vision needed to accomplish anything of note - positive or negative - in Europe nor are things "bad enough yet" for someone new to arise, for years to come.
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 4 2025 20:17 utc | 3
@ b
What are other alternatives?
Line up for another KKK-ovid Vakzine innoculation?
Posted by: maja | Mar 4 2025 20:21 utc | 4
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 4 2025 20:17 utc | 3
Yeah, being that it's a treaty (at least in name) I'd assume Congressional approval is needed, but Trump could also functionally exit NATO in any number of other ways and let it die on the vine for the next 3.8 years.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Mar 4 2025 20:25 utc | 5
What IS happening is the creation of "slush funds" by borrowing multiple billions on the back of each population. €800 billion for the EU Commission to play with and €900 billion for the Germans. (€11'800 debt per person in 80 million souls).
Both for "local" forces. Probably followed by other countries doing the same, as they do not have the necessary cash - after supporting Ukraine ! Result will be inflation (according to Mertz), Bankruptcies and the fire sale of personal assets to Blackrock and other US based Vulture funds and Oligarchies.
Who needs NATO when there is nothing left to protect?
FFSake b., get to a zoom-out helicopter vision, above the sheer rhetoric and noise.
Stop submitting to the ,panem et circenses, sort of the seduction.
Nothing is going to change, but the restructuring of useless efforts to rule our world.
The orange marionette is representing the opinion of the ruling class only, and it is that the usa weapon of theirs is exhausted at the moment, thus they need regrouping. Thus the false offer of peace to Russia, only to regroup
Division of labor, have you heard of it, USA puppets have delegated the task of destroying Russia to EU. Hegsheth has implicitly said it, and there is the document stating this, I think one of the posters have presented it as PDF. Zed?
There is no schism, EU is following on the script faithfully, increase to 5% of GDP for ,defense,. Us will thus take China, while Eu will keep Russia busy and weakened.
Just the script.
Read Brian Berletic, a rare voice of reason amongst many false imbeciles. Helmer is good as well.
FFSake
Posted by: stranger | Mar 4 2025 20:34 utc | 7
I may well be mistaken, but wouldn’t the US quitting NATO leave Türkiye as the largest armed force?
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Mar 4 2025 20:39 utc | 8
Once again, the 2021 Russian proposals for security in Europe (with minimal Russian concessions) seem to me as the best way forward. It suits everyone (if you exclude the war hawks).
No NATO withdrawal back to 97 but only very small US forces as tripwires. Token US forces in EU seem fine with Trump, without US out of NATO. NATO specs are a large portion of the MIC and I think that he would like to stay.
The new ReArmed EU forces can gladly defend EU borders without US. They will never dare to attack Russia without US support. Since Russia has no plans to attack EU, a simple clause of similar troop numbers across borders will keep Russia happy as well.
And I don't think anyone (sane) wants intermediate missiles in Europe.
Posted by: Erlindur | Mar 4 2025 20:41 utc | 9
The real alternative would be simply to abandon ties with US and work with BRICS.
Clearly that is in Europe's best interest in any situation because US looks very likely to cut itself off as a small independent closed trading block and Europe is best outside it.
Mind - that would require European leadership and recognition that Europe is now bullied by Trump (the everything on the Surface State) but not by Deep State Biden.
Posted by: Michael Droy | Mar 4 2025 20:46 utc | 11
It is something of a counterfactual to assume that Europe had security needs addressed by NATO. The Soviet Union was not a military threat. Insofar as NATO served a military function at all, it seems to me to be as plausible to see it in its early years taking up some of the burdens of creating a military force that supposedly did that, while specific European nations devoted such resources to their campaigns against their colonies. The French fought wars in Vietnam and Algeria. The English fought in Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Guiana and Egypt. Later it fought in Libya, Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan. (And Ukraine unofficially.) NATO is functionally a state terror organization aimed against the rest of the world, hence noises about NATO's interests in defending its interest against PRC. At this point it is not even clear to me that Trump isn't really just more about making Europeans pay more for less. Good business in one sense, but not anti-imperialist.
The first issue of course is, what to do with all those US bases in Europe? It's hard to see why the US wants to give them up. And it's hard to see how so-called Europe can make it.
As to a concert of Europe, the concert was not a time of peace for the world at large. It may even be viewed as a precondition for the European colonial empires, I suspect. It was the struggle over colonies (in the form of the collapsing Ottoman empire in particular) that most directly led to the Great War. It was in some respects the Third Balkan War after all. A new concert of Europe that will reverse the verdicts of WWII, American hegemony, seem very unlikely.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 4 2025 20:46 utc | 12
The US could abandon the integrated command and remain in the Atlantic Alliance à l DeGaulle. It would be even more interesting if Russia were offered the same status.
Posted by: Stierlitz | Mar 4 2025 20:53 utc | 13
Excuse me sir but you're dramatically wrong when you say that there was no major wars in Europe between 1820 and 1914.
4 russian-turk wars. And a French-Anglo-Turk against Russia( Crimea) war
2 Balkan wars
Austro-French war
Austro-Prussian war
French Prussian war
Ok , there was no continental wars but it cost together millions of dreads, forced change of country for tens of millions people, it also saw birth of new nations: Greece, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Germany, Italy.
I hope that you're better in geopolitic than in history.
Best regards
Posted by: Darras | Mar 4 2025 20:56 utc | 14
NATO was a tool for the US to control Europe. Leaving NATO wont necessarily mean pulling our bases and troops out of Europe, or abandoning our security interests in the region. However, it will provide European state leaders a way to convince their citizens of the need to spend more on their military, and this means more business for US defense companies.
Posted by: Pete Lincoln | Mar 4 2025 20:57 utc | 15
Should it come to pass that Trump actually shitcans NATO, such a move would be a tour de force; a geopolitical revolution of the highest levels. For decades, NATO has been a toy of American foreign policy...one initiated in a 1946 at the tiny Westminster College (check the echo on that site) in Missouri. In essence, Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, now out of office by means of a Labour victory in the '45 elections. Churchill's address was his famous "IRON CURTAIN" speech.
Cold War One was the product of that Iron Curtain speech on the part of the most influential rhetorical manipulator and manifestor of the 20th Century. So what factors promulgated that address? In the first instance Winnie was already quite insider aware of the looming loss of the Empire of India; a status which was granted Queen Victoria, a few years before her 1901 death. Lord Mountbatten, of Vicky's lineage, was at that time the Viceroy of the Crown and was well-placed, while loathing his mission to pull up the stakes.
The End of Empire was a shit, sad, sorry outcome for that individual who personally exemplified both Imperialism and British staunchness, particularly during the Battle of Britain, an era in which he peronzlized the image of John Bull. Looming behind the scenes was the true core of the Empire, City of London. The Square Mile continued to reign over international economies, media and in numerous iterations, governance. Ruling the City since 1815 from slightly behind the curtain was none other than the Rottenchild Crime Clan and its Talmudist imperial agenda.
Quietly dominating the Atlanticist wing of American economic and geopolitical prowess were an Anglophilic coterie of both northern and southern elites, consisting mostly of the Connecticut Yankee faux nutmeg peddlers and their various descendants across the fruited plain...along with a smaller contingent of Princeton educated southern elites...as well as a yet rather quiet but fast rising Talmudist shot-callers, gradually occupying more positions of influence and power.
So now we come to the possibility that the very most disruptive real-estate manipulator and showman on steroids; The Donald.
Does he or does he not merely upset the NATO/EU applecart...or actually fully engage in a realignment of the first order by means of engaging with Russia and China in establishing a tripartite agreement on the basis of mutual accommodation and respect?
THAT is the question.
Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 4 2025 20:58 utc | 16
Czech republic says it has lost oil pipeline supply...maybe it will see the sense of joining Hungary and Slovakia in their understanding of life in the EU ..
Posted by: Jo | Mar 4 2025 20:59 utc | 17
No NATO...no Article 5 protection....undermines the "scheming"
that USA thought was going on...EU and Z and UK dragging in USA to Ukraine facing more directly against Russia with full force of their military.Sooo...no problem non USA troops being targeted by Russia.
Posted by: Jo | Mar 4 2025 21:06 utc | 18
NATO began as a way to control Europe by the US, then it morphed into a way to sell arms as a major purpose, then it was used to attack countries that western oligarchs wanted to take over, then to push the agendas of the new NATO enforced "rules based order" on perceived adversaries. None of those purposes are gone except the first, so if Trump pulls out of NATO then probably something else will be planned, but probably not built until 4 years from know in the hopes the Democrats come back to power.
Posted by: kana | Mar 4 2025 21:07 utc | 19
@3
US constitution puts a lot of powers into the executive.
Trump is commander in chief, all execution requires plans. Trump can direct all plans to deploy to USEUCOM be rescinded, and operative units do something else.
Then next budget funds closures and redeployments. Some redeployment can be done by reprogrammed money. Germany pays for some U.S. costs, and would save some euros as well.
Congress has only advise and consent over treaties! A little arm twisting…
I am in favor of US getting out of European entanglements.
Use the UN.
Posted by: paddy | Mar 4 2025 21:11 utc | 20
I don't think you understand Germany at all, despite it being your home country. It isn't merely that your local oligarchy would rather end German democracy (which they will do if AfD approaches 30% of the vote) than withdraw from NATO and the EU, it's that the collapse of the EU would be a tsunami destroying the modern German economy.
Ultimately debt repudiation, purge of oligarchy, and a Russia-aligned military government would be of major benefit to Germany and the European continent. But that won't happen without an expanded war, one Russia might not even want to fight.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Mar 4 2025 21:14 utc | 21
Czech republic says it has lost oil pipeline supply...maybe it will see the sense of joining Hungary and Slovakia in their understanding of life in the EU ..
Posted by: Jo | Mar 4 2025 20:59 utc | 17
No way with the current govt. in charge, such russophobia is only seen in the baltic chihuahuas. Around here lots of people are still butthurt about 1968 even though they weren't alive back then. There are oil reserves for 90 days, govt. says. The russian Druzhba pipeline supplies about 40% of oil, rest is supplied by german IKL pipeline.
Posted by: 5thcolumn | Mar 4 2025 21:16 utc | 22
The fallacy of freezing $300 billion Russian funds mostly in Europe has faced a reality check. These are just book entries and guarantees to honor payment when sought by a party to a transaction. It's like inter bank lending and borrowing. No actual cash or assets are involved. Of course it means Russia would not get its money's worth of receivables but it also means Russia need not pay its creditors either. The net impact would be at worst zero.
Europe has shot itself in the foot many times over. There are multiple divisions in Europe. War mongers - the FUKPIGS group France, UK, Poland, Italy, Germany, Spain. The other extreme has Baltic states, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Moldova. Others in the middle camp. Not sure how they can work together for a common purpose. All in the PIGSFUCK group are heavily in debt. They can't sustain any more military spending. Most of their regimes are under threat from pro-Putin "ultra right" parties that may win the next election.
High fun awaits.
Posted by: Jason | Mar 4 2025 21:20 utc | 23
IMO, we don't want another Concert of Europe or Prince Metternich! The Concert of Europe was a counterrevolutionary formation aimed at maintaining the post-Napoleonic order, including a Europe-wide territorial status quo. It persevered by putting down national rebellion after national rebellion (in Italy, in Spain, in Poland, in Poland, Bohemia, etc.), and suppressing workers self-organization. Only in Greece were nationalist aspirations supported, the better to strike a blow against the Ottoman Empire. But in general, the Concert of Europe was reactionary and accepting of what was left of the post-French Revolution feudal order.
The Revolutions of 1830 and 1848 struck a blow against this reactionary trans-national order, though these revolutions could not complete their work. Later, in 1870-71, the Communards in Paris couldn't understand what they needed to do to achieve class rule, as the Concert powers kept their neutrality, assuring Bismark's rallying of southern German states would defeat the upstart Napoleon III. A "victory" for the status quo... a victory whose bitter fruits would be reaped 43 years later when Europe descended into inter-imperialist continental war, killing millions. This is the future of Europe even under a new "Concert of Europe". (To be sure, Bismarck thought he could buy off the new rising proletarian class by constructing a form of welfare state. This welfare state was based upon the super-exploitation of Germany's new colonies in Africa, a colonization that relied on, when needed, the machinery of genocide!)
The only future is to continue the work of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and end the rule of the exploiters. This too will be a bloody period, but it will lead to an end to fratricide, murderous nationalism, and the chaos of capitalist nation states in endless competition with each other, which always leads to war.
Posted by: Jeffrey Kaye | Mar 4 2025 21:23 utc | 24
I would disagree a bit with your 19th Century analogy and I would add a "how history Rhymes" angle. The "Concert of Europe" was extremely fragile, it depended on a strong Austrian/Russian Alliance and keeping Prussia small. It involved widespread surveillance against pan-German nationalists including leading cultural figures, German Universities etc. All of which was designed to prevent the unification of Germany under the Frankfurt Diet.
The Crimean war (the history rhymes bit) broke that strong Austrian/Russian bond and over the course of the next 60 years Austria died the death of a coward, It died by a thousand cuts inflicted on it by an anti-democratic Herr Bismark and the Kaiser. So it was successful in preventing a strong democratic German nation but only because it helped create a strong, paranoid, anti-democratic and militaristic Germany
So yes there was no "Continent wide" war in the last 80 years of the 19th Century but the humiliation of France and Austria, the end of the Ottomans in Europe and the weakening effect of all of this on European cohesion laid the ground for the big explosion in 1914.
Posted by: vtObserver | Mar 4 2025 21:23 utc | 25
Posted by: Ering46z | Mar 4 2025 20:16 utc | 2
"what happens to the pay checks of all the many thousands of local nationals working in supporting rolles on all those NATO bases after the DoD funding is gone?"
The paychecks will cease to exist. The workers may have to find work that's actually useful and productive. This will be a great benefit to us and to them.
Posted by: jr | Mar 4 2025 21:28 utc | 26
So we are talking about not a new Yalta but an anti-Yalta. Good, I am in complete agreement.
Unfortunately, we need a complete collapse of the existing financial system in the west and a return to national currencies/policies sans the influence of international jewry/liberalism.
If it were to happen, I would weep with joy for the rest of my life, living through the chaos of this fake reality the few decades of my life so far.
A bildungsroman from thanking my lucky stars to being born an American, to realizing I have been living in the belly of the beast under the control of the Synagogue of Satan, to feeling true liberation from the despair the anti-Logos forces have stupidly thought they could inflict on us forever.
But I am sure tonight:
"Israel is our bestest friend in the west."
Still a long way to go.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 4 2025 21:28 utc | 27
Am going to get a lot of hate for this, when I say that now that Russia has made a deal allowing US mineral companies to operate in Russia and Donbass/Novorrossiya, it even could be worth it in exchange for dismantling Nato and dumping Ukraine.
One should understand that even though the price is not cheap, but eventually allows Russia to continue its own development. I hope they do not compromise on China-Iran-BRICS. Putin is a pragmatist, not an absolutist.
Posted by: unimperator | Mar 4 2025 21:30 utc | 28
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Mar 4 2025 20:39 utc | 8
Yes, it would inevitably shift the balance of power over Europe to Turkey, something that Israel would be loathe to support.
This makes a US EXIT unlikely.
Posted by: Deniz | Mar 4 2025 21:37 utc | 29
Pete Lincoln@2057 March forth
Okay, so we are dealing with the U$ heavyweight in economic, political and to some degree, power...the WarDefense Industry. That powerful entity has been riding high in the saddle ever since the 1950-'53 Korean War...yeah, a 72 year reign in both Congre$$ and American geostrategic military power.
Jobs, jobs, jobs...well paying ones at that, working for the likes of Lockheed-Martin; Raytheon, Boeing and numerous additional elements of the war-defense industry. Hedge-funders and other predatorial parasites, taking over corporation after corporation have succeeded in destroying primary industries right across the fruited plain, while accelerating the profits for shareholders first and even to some extent stockholder investors. A huge MONEY PIT is the most apt description for the continued existence of the WARDEFENSE INDUSTRY...a much better description semantically than Ike's "military-industrial complex.
After all, it's all about defending war=military spending of zillions of taxpayer dollars. Meanwhile, as many nations enjoy single-payer medical care; decent educational systems and outcomes; along with beneficial social policies; American serfs (aka the working class) are suffering through ever declining incomes relative to inflation, in particular.
So what if Trump were for real? Let's say that he nationalizes both the "Fed" and the WarDefense Industry...no more huge profits for the primary investor class...along with relief for the taxpayer. To please those political constituencies with those high-paying jobs...how about redirecting those industries and funds to restoring American infrastructure...beginning with a high speed rail net, established along the medians of the Interstate highway systems, connecting almost all major urban areas right across the land.
Half the bridges in the country and numerous federal highways are in desperate shape. Western mountain forests, in particular, need a lot of careful attention, mostly removal of deadfall and brush along with a lot of shredding and mulching.
Massive amounts of remediation of chemically assaulted farmlands are absolutely required. Many sewage plants and water-
systems are in need of overhaul and replacements. The educational system is long overdue for a huge shaking-up. So is the so-called "justice" system. Trade schools in most every traditional iteration, such as bricklaying, plumbing and electrical positions will require considerable well-paid experienced in the field teachers, many of whom are now retired.
The list goes on and on and on. America is gasping for breath, fresh air...like we need to quit with the goddamned chemtrails and other forms of weather "modification".
America needs a cultural revolution...a totally non-violent one and one in which America could become a great country.
The Trump Administration with its MAGA theme, will be wise to engage visionaries and polymaths and then practical can-do thinkers...and not your usual comfortably numb bureaucraps and mis-edjumacated administrators with a string of business and lawyer degrees.
Original thinkers are herewith called to action. There may be a handful of such individuals who occasionally share their thoughts here on the MoA.
Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 4 2025 21:38 utc | 30
@12 Steven
Because of your failure to think philosophically, you can not fathom how the 20th century post-Yalta, although predicated on keeping the peace, has proven to be the most chaotic, Anti-human, arrangement that has more than once almost brought us to the brink of global annihilation (and certainly still can).
The question is whether it is better to be led by a consortium of international elite who think they can keep the peace, albeit through the complete tyrannical rule over culture and difference (iow, what it means to be human) or whether we should accept certain human limitations (border skirmishes happen, people like to live and exist with people who look and act like themselves, etc.).
The question is philosophical and any anti-thinking attempt to arrange humanity in such a way bwliwving you have the answer to what ails it proves you have not grasped the nature of the problem.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 4 2025 21:40 utc | 31
Posted by: unimperator | Mar 4 2025 21:30 utc | 28
i keep seeing "division of labor" and "focus on China"
China respects Trump. Last visit they gave him red carpet. Biden and Obama officials get Tarmac and pushy soldiers.
Because China knows Trump os, excise the cliche, "tough but fair", while biden and Obama are weak, unreliable, and dripping with paternal consenscension.
When Trump talks of China, he talks of them as a dangerous competitor. when Biden Obama talk of china, they talk of a gloabal threat of evil, hellbent on subjugating all and violating human rights.
So I think Trumps hostile posture towards China is neither dangerous or what it is made out to be.
I said all that to say... the real damger is Iran... and a big question is does Russia stick by Iran, or is all this tripartite reorganization setting the stage to isolate Iran?
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 21:40 utc | 32
Unfortunately, we need a complete collapse of the existing financial system in the west and a return to national currencies/policies sans the influence of international jewry/liberalism.
If it were to happen, I would weep with joy for the rest of my life, living through the chaos of this fake reality the few decades of my life so far.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 4 2025 21:28 utc | 27
i agree with your optimism about the economic benefit of a financial collapse. Unfortunately I think we are heading into the Orwell's world of 1984. We in the US will be the center of Oceania, the dominant sea power, Russia will be the center of the dominant land power and most trade will be conducted through the Arctic trade routes.
The opposing land power will be a renewed Ottoman empire and the opposing sea power will be centered on China. Europe will likely split. The UK and Ireland will likely become US states (a la Hawaii) and it is possible some NATO countries will also join the US. Germany will try to be a balancing power in Europe but it will fall to Russia eventually. Italy, Spain and France are slightly more likely to align with the US but that is not a given by any means.
Trump is turning over the card tables because the end of the current system is approaching ever faster.
Anyway these are my demented ramblings.
Posted by: vtObserver | Mar 4 2025 21:41 utc | 33
The conquest of Russia has failed, the money invested has to be written off.
The U.S. is withdrawing from Europe because the cost of the occupation army exceeds the value of the loot.
Posted by: Passerby | Mar 4 2025 21:45 utc | 34
Nemesis Calling@2128 Marching forth today
Admirable posting. You are on the path. Thanks.
Posted by: aristodemos | Mar 4 2025 21:47 utc | 35
Germany and France are already seen as the "engine" of the EU. In theory they would just have to get together to start a new, better institution of cooperation than the current EU. Unfortunately neither the likes of Hollande/Macron, nor those of Scholz/Merz are even remotely willing or able to even consider that.
Marine Le Pen and Alice Weidel might be more willing, but they lack some of the sheer will and stubbornness of somebody like Trump or Orban. The most likely outcome under current circumstances are years and years of decline and stagnation for Europe.
Posted by: Roland | Mar 4 2025 21:48 utc | 36
I said all that to say... the real damger is Iran... and a big question is does Russia stick by Iran, or is all this tripartite reorganization setting the stage to isolate Iran?
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 21:40 utc | 32
i mean, the real danger of Trump going to war, is not with China or Russia, I dont think he ever would, but he is true-blue zionist, and war woth Iran may be his "messianic" mission.
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 21:48 utc | 37
I'm hoping for reciprocity
Did you see what they did to Libya?
Wouldn't it be nice if the EXACT same thing they did to Libya, happened to them?
Remember when Britain created its "Palestine Mandate"? Look at what it did to Palestine! Wouldn't it be good of London looked exactly like Gaza City looks today?
If you put all the Russias together, white Russia, Little Russia, new Russia, Russia is MORE than 50 % of "Europe". Yet, ignorant jackass3s say "Europe must defend itself from Russia", not recognizing that Russia IS Europe. France is NOT Europe, Germany is NOT Europe, but Russia IS Europe.
Posted by: Hot Carl | Mar 4 2025 22:00 utc | 38
@Jeffrey Kaye | Mar 4 2025 21:23 utc | 24
You mention 19th century revolutions as something promising. But most of it was the result of freemasonic projects under British control by proxy. Unknown to most at the time but it was mainly about preparing the ground for British liberal hegemony.
Eliminating all traditional rival monarchies,
Most historical works are descriptions by those who didnt understand what was going on. Britain partly absorbed the strategy from the old oligarchic system in Venice. No other nation had that kind of knowhow.
Posted by: petergrfstrm | Mar 4 2025 22:01 utc | 39
The Concert of Europe may have been good (relatively) for Europeans, but if was bad news for the rest of the world. Instead of stealing land and resources from each other, they stole them from less developed parts of the world in Africa, Asia and Oceania.
The whole escapade ended when Amundsen stuck a flag in the South Pole, marking the point in time when there was no more easy land to annex, so they reverted to stealing it from each other.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Mar 4 2025 22:03 utc | 40
If Trump actually does this, then whatever parts or actions of him I dislike and think despicable, I'd actually think he sould get the next Nobel Peace Prize for putting an end to a massive imperialistic deadly military alliance, without firing a shot.
As for Concert of Europe, the thing is, history tends to show that Europe needs a major bloodbath every 100 years or so to calm people down. The 30-years War was so nasty and bloody that most of Europe went into quiete chivalrous wars between armies and stopped butchering civilians at least until the 7-years war, and arguably until the Revolutionary/Napoleonic wars. Napoleon taught Europe to calm down until WW1, as you said. And both world wars taught Europe to stop with industrial-scale butchery at least until 2022. On the other hand, I don't think the Ukraine bloodbath will teach peace again to the rest of Europe - though diminishing birthrates and dwindling demographics possibly might be enough not to go full conscription and total war against each other.
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Mar 4 2025 22:16 utc | 41
US pulling its troops and closing bases will allow European countries to decide who they wanna be without interference. If they revert to monkeys flinging shit at each other so be it. They are no threat to anyone but themselves. It would be entertaining to watch Poland attack Germany with France spinning around acting all important and shit.
Posted by: comrade simba | Mar 4 2025 22:17 utc | 42
There are already two solutions available for Europe: China's Global Security Initiative and Russia's subset of it called the Eurasian Security System I've made both available several times. They are based on the three OSCE Treaties, The Helsinki Accords and the UN Chater, whose central concept is Indivisibility of Security and elimination of all hegemony. IMO, the Global Security Initiative offers the best solution.
I also mused about Trump's address, "Trump: Peacemaker or Genocide Facilitator".
A strong, militarily independent EU with a concomitantly strong, leading-edge high-tech sector, fueled by inexpensive RF energy resources and demonstrating the mutual respect of nuclear-armed equals, would, by definition, be its own bloc within a quadripartite "multipolar world," consisting of the US/UK, EU (neo-Concert of Europe), RF, and the Sino-Indian sphere. However, note that it is the latter sphere that would inherently be the most labile, considering the entrenched protectorates of Australia, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, and, of course, Taiwan. So, really, out of all the hypothetical spheres or blocs, it seemingly makes sense for the Chinese to continue to be the most globalist, because their hypothetical respective tranche is the least clear-cut.
In comparison, a true Concert of Europe/RF condominium seems very geostrategically symmetrical indeed, notwithstanding the RF's concerning and unbalancing population shortage. Obviously, no other country in the "New World" has ever been a threat, let alone a rival, to US hemispheric potency, and there doesn't seem to be anything in even the long-term horizon to disturb, let alone dethrone, that dynamic. A revived Concert of Europe, inspired by a Hegelian/Kojevian vision, must also be a benevolent protector of North Africa; its borders starting from Greenland to the West, but excluding Canada, which is unsalvageable, because the old patriarch ("patria") itself is intractable in its allegiance to its favorite, albeit quite unruly, child—the US—which "ought and must" remain the antithesis of Continental Europe.
The RF part of the condominium would serve to gently placate Turkish neo-Ottoman revanchism throughout the Caucasus, discounting those places where a Turkic majority has become entrenched or has always been an autochthonous majority. The Muslim world is sui generis, encompassing Pakistan and Indo-Malaysia; it should be courted, and the theological dimension treated with pincers, considering parts of it are already nuclear-armed. Instead of encouraging secularism in the short term, the right sort of theologues should be respectfully maintained or supported—namely, those who are rational in a comparatively empirical sense. The point, to be sure, is to avoid the proliferation of nuclear-armed anti-Israels in an evolving response to Israel. The fact that this phenomenon hasn't yet spread beyond Pakistan is perhaps indicative of the level of corruption and hegemonic capture, vis-à-vis the US, that plagues the region.
Disarming this seemingly ever-more tightly wound ticking time bomb would, perforce, entail a not insignificant role and job for the EU-RF-Sino triad of the quadripartite rest, considering that Asia—both Near and Far, relative to the West—would remain, for the long durée, the zone of peril and sabotage by the US/UK sectors, the only ones to have effectively been spared the type of relatively recent internal mass carnage and physical destruction that was, differentially (in contrast), directly experienced en masse and in se by the Continent, Russia, and China (mutatis mutandis).
Posted by: Ludovic | Mar 4 2025 22:23 utc | 44
Trump , like all right wingers , knows that the best way to make a quick buck is to change the rules. Act fast and break everything. How much will the US charge the EU for buying up the US bases and superannuared old fashioned US military equipment they will ( not) need to defend themselves?
Russia has superceded the usefulness of Deep military shelters and planes and ships lying around, by introducing the hypersonic Oreshniks. Lol.
Posted by: Giyane | Mar 4 2025 22:26 utc | 45
Security guarantees now have to be provided by the country who
Always should have provided them - Russia
Posted by: Night Tripper | Mar 4 2025 22:27 utc | 46
Europe need to fight its own wars.
https://torrancestephensphd.substack.com/p/eu-freeze-learn-to-fight-your-wars
Posted by: Dogon Priest | Mar 4 2025 22:28 utc | 47
I'm tired of psychopathetic self important unelected (or elected) politicians!
Dead fucking tired!
Just leave me alone.
Posted by: g wiltek | Mar 4 2025 22:29 utc | 48
NATO was a tool for the US to control Europe. Leaving NATO wont necessarily mean pulling our bases and troops out of Europe, or abandoning our security interests in the region. ...
Posted by: Pete Lincoln | Mar 4 2025 20:57 utc | 15
And since the European Union was basically a US project, created by the CIA (see American Comittee for a United Europe), we can even look at this like a child growing up: NATO was necessary to keep control over Europe but since there's a grown-up EU now the US can move that control over to "them" (aka US vassals).
NATO was only needed to militarily unify/coordinate the several nation states, but they are gone now with the EU taking over.
Posted by: Zet | Mar 4 2025 22:31 utc | 49
Sir calls a meeting and Tom attends.
Sir - the war isn't going to plan, we need to revise things - what ideas do you have for an Improvement Plan?
Tom - Sir, our information war is not really helpful to the cause.
Sir - why do you say that Tom? Have you forgotten what you learned?
Tom - ok Sir, well now that you you remind me, then the best thing we can do is to make our Jet callsigns even more aggressive! When the Triple R did the Black Sea escorted by the two Typhoons, well the boys loved that - especially as they were our two Psychos. Our callsigns are just the best!
Can we get more letters for our aggressive callsigns as presently they can be misunderstood.
Sir - say again??
Tom - well sir, for instance our callsign NIGHTM001 is mistaken for "Night Mum". Similarly the HORSEM001 is mistaken for "horse manure" - we need better callsigns sir.
Sir - alright, but you're going to have to be more creative with what you got. The best bit about the triple R is that it's done on the cheap; you know that we have to tighten our belts.
Tom - what do you mean on the cheap?
Sir - well the plane made a few quid for us when we sold off the electronics to India. The best we can do is to moon the Russian pilots when they buzz us off back to Waddington.
Tom - good plan! More windows is the answer!
Sir - what do you mean more windows? The triple R has no windows as it's a spy plane?
Tom - well Sir, we could festoon the triple R with full windows and moon them like nothing before - the canons of HMS Victory!
Posted by: MiGao | Mar 4 2025 22:34 utc | 50
the obvious alternative is a dissolution of the european union... the bureaucratic folks are calling all the shots in the eu at present...
Posted by: james | Mar 4 2025 22:36 utc | 51
Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 4 2025 20:46 utc | 12
Strange, the Soviet Union spent an inordinate amount of money trying to be a threat, were all those tank Armies a bluff. Also strange that Soviet conventional doctrine stressed the offence, with a defensive posture only a temporary state, before resumption of the attack. Obviously that was a purely defensive attack against NATO, who had munitions for barely a few weeks and were occupying ridiculously exposed forward positions in WG.
Posted by: Milites | Mar 4 2025 22:37 utc | 52
Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Mar 4 2025 20:12 utc | 1Jeg er redd at du er for naive. (I am afraid that you are too naive here.)I am convinced a dissolution of NATO will be A GIFT to the New Europe. We will have peace revolution at unprecedented levels of modern history.
A Pax universalis.
This is also the reason the Eurocrats are fighting to keep it alive.
Let's extrapolate a few years:
1. European countries spend shitloads on military, individually. Plus subscription.
2. Discontent populations: cuts in social spending; cost of living goes up.
3. Stir this pot a few years, with probably entirely new parties and leaders.
...
And what you get are excellent conditions for local wars: military is costly in upkeep and *entirely* useless -- unless you get to use these units. It may the best move to invade a neighbour. Don't worry about the justification, this is easily made up. The population is easily turned into hate/war mode within months.
This is, IMO, what b means with " The continent - where nations have been at war with each other for centuries - could easily fall back into that bad habit." And I am afraid of exactly that for some years now. The above train of thought isn't forced but I think it can naturally happen.
Posted by: Konami | Mar 4 2025 22:39 utc | 53
Posted by: unimperator | Mar 4 2025 21:30 utc | 28I agree with you. The following point isn't mine (I saw it on Thomas Röper's Antispiegel site).Am going to get a lot of hate for this, when I say that now that Russia has made a deal allowing US mineral companies to operate in Russia and Donbass/Novorrossiya, it even could be worth it in exchange for dismantling Nato and dumping Ukraine.
One should understand that even though the price is not cheap, but eventually allows Russia to continue its own development. I hope they do not compromise on China-Iran-BRICS. Putin is a pragmatist, not an absolutist.
Russian leaders know that the West isn't agreement capable. If they want to improve relations with the USA, say, but have to expect backstabbing then this plan looks excellent to me:
1. Invite US companies to invest/mine in Russia. Good conditions are fine.
2. Get something in exchange. For example nuclear control treaties, no sanctions ...
3. If USA (say president 50) backstabs you, disown US companies in Russia.
The more the invest, the lower the chance for treachery! This is why I don't think of Putin's "you can have our rare earths" offer not as treason or distraction. Apart from perhaps tickling Trump's dealmaker ego, there is substance here.
The Chinese have been really good at making the world better through peaceful production and trade. The Russians have to be clever but if the above plan works out, it'd be a good step in that direction.
Posted by: Konami | Mar 4 2025 22:47 utc | 54
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 4 2025 20:17 utc | 3
Yep. You should see the low bar of debate around this in Australia. Everyone still thinks liberalism stands for truth and the good. Pragmatic realism in foreign policy must return. A neo-Westphalia? Aggressive neutrality and realist diplomacy. I wonder what the boys in Wall St and the City think of this?
Posted by: Patroklos | Mar 4 2025 22:48 utc | 55
Early days yet.
Erdogan is making noises about no security in Europe without Turkey. Still hasn't figured out that Europeans despises the Turks.
Trump could pull all nukes deployed from the European theater and Turkey as a goodwill gesture. Sure, it will be optics and symbolic only, but it would add to his nuclear reduction proposal.
Posted by: Suresh | Mar 4 2025 22:49 utc | 56
Czech republic says it has lost oil pipeline supply...maybe it will see the sense of joining Hungary and Slovakia in their understanding of life in the EU ..
Posted by: Jo | Mar 4 2025 20:59 utc | 17
The Ukrainian Armed Forces have finally destroyed the Druzhba oil pipelineKiev's persistent attempts to stop the pumping of Russian oil through the Druzhba oil pipeline, apparently, were successful last night. This time at a station in the Rostov region (Novoshakhtinsky oil refinery).
Acting Governor of the Rostov region Yuri Slyusar:
"As a result of a massive UAV attack in the Chertkovsky district, a fire broke out on the oil pipeline. Emergency services were dispatched to the scene. The personnel were evacuated."As a result, Russian oil stopped flowing to the Czech Republic through the Druzhba oil pipeline, the Minister of Industry and Trade of the Republic Lukas Vlcek reported.
In addition to the strikes on the oil pipeline in the Rostov region, the Syzran oil refinery was attacked last night, footage of the fire is being published, as well as a fuel and lubricants depot in Rovenki, Luhansk region. Before that, the Ufa Bashneft-UNPZ exploded (allegedly by itself).
In response, the Russian Ministry of Defense, according to the Kremlin's instructions, is observing "strategic patience", avoiding strikes on the Ukrainian energy sector solely for political reasons. Which look, in view of Kiev's violations of all rules and tacit agreements, not only with Moscow, but also with Washington and even Brussels, increasingly strange.
Posted by: Zet | Mar 4 2025 22:51 utc | 57
I hope he does exit from NATO, but I doubt anything that big will get announced. Whenever something hyouuuuge is teased, it ends up being small beans.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 4 2025 22:57 utc | 58
Posted by: Zet | Mar 4 2025 22:51 utc | 58
could be looking to build anti-ukro sentimennt in Czech R.
Why did it take so long.
breaking eggs for omelettes, perhaps. Iean Czech R. hostile to RF anyway.
Also "holding back" is just as good as "preparing overwhelming barrage"
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 22:58 utc | 59
Still hasn't figured out that Europeans despises the Turks.
Posted by: Suresh | Mar 4 2025 22:49 utc | 57
Canuck, we need a ceremony.
Posted by: Deniz | Mar 4 2025 23:02 utc | 60
The following point isn't mine (I saw it on Thomas Röper's Antispiegel site).
Posted by: Konami | Mar 4 2025 22:47 utc | 54
I've read that too and really liked the thinking, it sounded like a move Putin would do.
Posted by: Zet | Mar 4 2025 23:10 utc | 61
@ unimperator | Mar 4 2025 21:30 utc | 28
@ Zet | Mar 4 2025 22:51 utc | 58
thanks and thanks!
Posted by: james | Mar 4 2025 23:11 utc | 62
could be looking to build anti-ukro sentimennt in Czech R.
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 22:58 utc | 60
Aye, now would be the time to put some more splinters into the flesh of the EU.
Posted by: Zet | Mar 4 2025 23:15 utc | 63
DS daily map update:
https://deepstatemap.live/en#6/49.4324126/32.0581055
Overall: Another slack day for the RFA, actually losing (!) territory (3.2 kmsq).
Specific changes (all UKR gains):
1. UKR counterattack near Zapadne (Oskil River crossing) took territory.
2. UKR counterattack in Uspenivka (the Dnipropokrovsk front one) took territory.
3. Also a map change ("clarification", not attack) give UKR back some territory in NE Kursk salient.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 4 2025 23:22 utc | 64
European history, such as I learned it over the years, is predicated upon the idea that there are two alternatives: empire, as in the Habsburgs, Bourbons, Napoleon, a militarise Reich, say .. this or the Westphalian states system in it's successive iterations. You have reasonably enough pointed up the Concert as an example of present, post Nato possibilities. But we should have considered the UN, as it was originally conceived, since this is really the latest Westphalian form after the failed League. Still, Europeans think about Europe. Which doesn't include Turkey or other non white countries. Fine. I think a new Concert would work, because all the yapping dogs now on the short American leash would have to countenance The Bear. Russia. It's there. Available for alliances. Lavrov is getting on but Russian's not going anywhere. America out, Russia in, and Germany? Russia is now in the business of providing security goods to the essentially Asiatic/African world comeing to be. Surely some European countries would like to become part of the rising tide. The Westphalian idea lives yet, but not in Europe. Life is eleswhere.
Posted by: Kevin Frost | Mar 4 2025 23:26 utc | 65
very poor day for ukraine
only captured 3.2 sq km today.
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 23:27 utc | 66
Re "the Concert was an extended period of relative peace and stability in Europe following the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars which had consumed the continent since the 1790s."
================
Not to forget that as of the time of the French occupation of large portions of Germany in the early 19th C., many German cities had not yet recovered from the general plundering, destruction, and devastation wreaked by the Thirty Years' War, which had ended a century and a half earlier. No Marshall Plan for (the entities that became modern ) Germany in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Posted by: Jane | Mar 4 2025 23:28 utc | 67
Zet 58
That would effect more than just than the Czechs...right? Won't the Hungarian/Austrian businesses and population be seriously also?
Kinda looks more like something that rogue elements of DC's 3LAs working with their counterparts in England & France would cook up. I can hear it now:
"well...isn't that nice...looks we're all in this together...huh? Thick and thin...now..don't go making deals with Russia...if you know what's good for 'ya. Ex-ukrainia has a lot of unexploded ordinance and they do our bidding"
Posted by: S Brennan | Mar 4 2025 23:39 utc | 68
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 4 2025 21:40 utc | 31 Trying to make sense of this...I see a claim that pre-Yalta there was some human, philosophically sane arrangement where the world accepted "certain human limitations (border skirmishes happen, people like to live and exist with people who look and act like themselves, etc.)" This is contrasted to the post-Yalta world if a "consortium of international elite who think they can keep the peace, albeit through the complete tyrannical rule over culture and difference (iow, what it means to be human)"
But the pre-Yalta world was a world empires, which are not, not, not the truly human and wisely philosophical acceptance of human nature. They were oppressions of militarily weaker cultures and they routinely violated any desire of their victims to live with each other rather than the imperial conquerors. And whatever the failings of post-Yalta elites, they have never controlled culture. As for the correct observation that the world is in peril of nuclear catastrophe, well, yes. But I am bold enough to say, if there were nukes in 1918, we'd all be radioactive. I don't know whether this so-called philosophical perspective boils down to butthurt over Hitler being defeated in WWII, or it's just your idiosyncratic crazy. But it's not in contact with reality. But I will concede that I am a materialist. If that is anti-philosophical, yes, indeed I am against philosophy. Tend to think of philosophy as religion where each philosopher is making up their own religion. Ministers without portfolio, so to speak.
Posted by: Milites | Mar 4 2025 22:37 utc | 52 Soviet military doctrine proves an offensive threat, but actual wars and interventions and bombing attacks and covert subversions don't? Even in the crudest terms, counting only tanks instead of bombers and missiles and nukes is remarkable, but only in bad ways. Real world history shows conclusively the US and NATO and the old imperialist metropoles were the ones constantly pushing for offensive superiority. You're wrong.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 4 2025 23:41 utc | 69
Why is USA in Europe anyway? Who likes us there? Ive never met anyone. They all hate the Yanks. They all hate Trump and wanted Hillery. Why stay where your not wanted? Uncle sugar is running out of sugar. Next we should get out of Japan. Get out of the war business. Go trump. Go trump Go trump. End this fricken war business. Bout time someone had some huevos. And the retards here who put Europe on a pedastal. Why not move there/ Tere is a constitution here and thats what is our governing document. EU wants the yanks gone. We dont want to be there. Wheres the problem? Just print your own sugar bucks Europe. Its not like you are not anyway.
Posted by: challis | Mar 4 2025 23:49 utc | 70
I said all that to say... the real damger is Iran... and a big question is does Russia stick by Iran, or is all this tripartite reorganization setting the stage to isolate Iran?
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 21:40 utc | 32
i mean, the real danger of Trump going to war, is not with China or Russia, I dont think he ever would, but he is true-blue zionist, and war woth Iran may be his "messianic" mission.
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 4 2025 21:48 utc | 37
According to Southfront:
"On March 2, 2025, the Iranian Vice President for Strategic Affairs Mohammad Javad Zarif resigned from his post. The significance of this event cannot be overstated. Mr. Zarif is the most brilliant representative of the liberal-reformist wing in the Islamic Republic. "
Note this was a day after Zelensky's defenestration.
also:
"It is no secret that large-scale economic cooperation projects with Russia have been thwarted by representatives of the liberal part of the Iranian establishment. The project for the construction of the Astara-Resht railway line has come to a standstill. Only 162 kilometers of railroad can connect the Baltic Sea with the Persian Gulf. Russia has agreed to finance the infrastructure project. Unfortunately, no progress has been made so far. The project to bring Russian natural gas to northern Iran has been sabotaged. The government of Masoud Pezeshkian decided to haggle over the price."
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 5 2025 0:06 utc | 71
Klemens Von metternich:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klemens_von_Metternich
Posted by: WMG | Mar 5 2025 0:16 utc | 72
It would be wise for it [Germany] to declare absolute neutrality and to refrain, like Austria, from joining any alliance. Its army, based on a short conscription of every men, should be stationed and act only within its own borders.
<= I predict that the British and the French will never allow Germany or Russia to rest in peace.. ? If Europe is to enjoy peace. something is going to have to done to contain the UK and probably also France..
One question: what about the right to self determination in this new Europe.. Will Europeans be allowed to move to accommodate their independent desires or will the nation state system hold its populations prisoners to the nations in which they currently are?
There are millions without a state as things stand now? How will that work?
Posted by: snake | Mar 5 2025 0:30 utc | 73
Posted by: stranger | Mar 4 2025 20:34 utc | 7
>delegated the task of destroying Russia to Europe
That's kind of like handing the keys to a Boeing 737 MAX to an amateur pilot with 40 hours of flight time on a Cessna. Or giving your retarded little brother a bunch of matches and a can of gas, while you leave him alone in the house.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Mar 5 2025 0:33 utc | 74
That would effect more than just than the Czechs...right? Won't the Hungarian/Austrian businesses and population be seriously also?
Posted by: S Brennan | Mar 4 2025 23:39 utc | 69
Honestly, I don't have a clue who else would be affected. They've re-routed the oil so many times that I lost track of which pipeline is still working and in which direction etc.
--
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 5 2025 0:06 utc | 72
That's very valuable information, thanks!
Posted by: Zet | Mar 5 2025 0:37 utc | 75
The real alternative would be simply to abandon ties with US and work with BRICS.
Clearly that is in Europe's best interest in any situation because US looks very likely to cut itself off as a small independent closed trading block and Europe is best outside it.
Posted by: Michael Droy | Mar 4 2025 20:46 utc | 11
Agreed. Should the US end NATO involvement and the EU collapse, big ifs there, then it would simply be every nation for itself as outlined.
If that's the case, then there is no question several countries would immediately join BRICS. Once the benefit becomes obvious to the others, perhaps they could agree to join as a block? Perhaps only BRICS can ensure these countries cooperate with one another?
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Mar 5 2025 0:51 utc | 76
Germany urgently needs to repair it's relationship with Russia thats their most obveous mutialy benifical trading partner.
Freands are more usefull than enemys always.
Its an invented enemy. As is all UK US enemys.
Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 5 2025 0:55 utc | 77
... Just look up what Polish revisionists think of Germany and how that country is re-building its army ...
If Germany and Austria were to declare absolute neutrality and refrain from joining alliances, either country could end up at the mercy of a Poland intent on regaining its old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth territory and borders from the Baltic Sea all the way down into central Ukraine and almost to the Black Sea.
The Vysegrad group of nations (Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia) was formed in 2011 for the purpose of military cooperation but it's not hard to see how, over time, a shared history of cooperation in one sphere becomes cooperation in other spheres and eventually becomes a loose union that, later again, becomes a tighter union under the leadership of one country and one elite.
Intermarium (Wikipedia article)
... On 12 May 2011, the Visegrád Group countries (The Republic of Poland, the Czech Republic, the Slovak Republic, and Hungary) announced the formation of a Visegrád Battlegroup under Polish command. The battlegroup was in place by 2016 as an EU force, not part of the NATO command. In addition, starting in 2013, the four countries were to begin joint military exercises under the auspices of the NATO Response Force. Some scholars saw this as a first step toward close Central European regional cooperation ...
For neutrality to work for Germany and Austria, their neighbours must also declare neutrality and resolve not to join any alliances. This would need some magnanimity on the part of larger nations like Germany and Poland to mind their own business in the event that smaller European nations like Slovakia become politically unstable or experience interference from external third parties (like Britain).
It would seem that a loose federation or other inter-European structure akin to the ICJ might be necessary to police any spats within and between European nations, to prevent certain nations in Europe from preying on and manipulating smaller European nations.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Mar 5 2025 0:57 utc | 78
- Right now there is no "Balnce of Power" in Europe. I think a reduced "influence of the US" would be the best way to go forward for Europe. That would create "breathing space" for the europeans.
- I still think that the Ukraine will lose (at least) 4 oblasts in the East and a number of oblasts in the west of the Ukraine to other countries.
Posted by: WMG | Mar 5 2025 0:57 utc | 79
Trump cant remove the US from NATO, I believe.
Trump behavior appears somw what passive agressive - something is holding him back.
And Zelensky behaves as if he believes he has a strong hand ultimately. Why would he belive that. Well, I believe that he is being counseled by the Europeans and the US Democrat party telling him: Dont worry about Trump - we have a plan for dealing with Trump.
I am not sure the limits of Trumps power, but it is limited. He cant do the things that Biden did because he is acting contrary to the wishes of much of the congress and powerful interests which pay their salaries.
Zelensky keeps repeating that he will not agree to cease fire without security guaranties. Now where would he get such a rediculous idea and then demand it? That would be exactly the wish of the US military industry. I believe they also are counseling Zelensky to stick to his guns - in effect he is working for them.
Posted by: jared | Mar 5 2025 1:10 utc | 80
NATO, aka ZATO, is my favourite military joke. Just for starters, a country can only join ZATO if it has demonstrated a shameless eagerness to lick Israel's boots.
Is it a coincidence that Israel was invented on May 14, 1948 and less than a year later ZATO was invented on April 4, 1949 as a balancing force to the "threat posed by Russia"?
Nope, sorry, that doesn't pass the sniff test.
And let's not forget that ZATO has NEVER attacked an entity which could defend itself in any meaningful way, or hadn't been tricked into disarming. This brand of cowardice has "Israel's" fingerprints all over it. And the fact that ZATO has wrecked a lot of "Israel's" imaginary enemies adds up to Q.E.D.
WHEN Trump pulls the US out of ZATO its fakery will quickly become laughably obvious.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 5 2025 1:15 utc | 81
Gerhardt G. | Mar 4 2025 23:06 utc | 62--
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, IMO Trump wants to reestablish the old spheres of influence concept which means the Outlaw US Empire is the Hegemon over the Western Hemisphere, which of course threatens all nations in its region and is antithetical to the Indivisible Security concept. I also think Russia will discover Trump is the typical US politico and isn't to be trusted as they learned during his first term.
Euro is no exit, and now structural, so post NATO EU would become EUTO, run by France and Germany with most of the rest in tow.
It would take a large upset for countries now part of EU to go their own way, reclaiming their currency would be a first step. Border control, adjustments of national law to suit own outlook etc. , but the pre-euro levels of cooperation or peace are not hard to imagine maintained in that circumstance. North of europe has different tensions , which it can keep and work through by self. Common security limited to recognition and defense of all associated borders. National upheavals respected as long as confined to those borders. Trust and cooperation with Russia is important. It is the only conceivable military threat at the moment, but even most basic of understandings would be all needed.
Europe was slowly but steadily going towards integration anyway, a respectful more differentiated form, the usual decided to cash in on it and ruin it all.
NATO has been an aggressive structure, managing a combined fear of Russia is about the only cohesive force it offered. Much of its use has resulted in destruction of various kinds, for member states also.
Turkey is not a direct threat to europe, unless it joins EU. Modern warfare makes stupid moves unappealing.
Would go to EUTO though and a more corrupt nazified EU in reality...with or without NATO, so not surprised US might want to choose an own position.
@Zet
"...since there's a grown-up EU now"
EU is completely unaccountable, and so quite the opposite.
Posted by: Ornot | Mar 5 2025 1:36 utc | 83
At the absolute central core of the Team Trump manoeuvres re Ukraine so-called “minerals” deal; kite-flying about leaving NATO; demands for more European GDP spending on defence ~ is U$A is overextended.
Ironic as the RAND roadmap the U$ signed up for was “Extending Russia” and putting pressure on their perceived vulnerabilities.
The U$ / Team Trump cabinet and defence/ military advisors are now fully aware of “facts on the ground” in Ukraine.
The U$ needs to declare victory and leave. Fast.
Like a house-flipper who needs to exit.
Team Trump want to be long, long, long gone before helicopter evacuations from embassy rooftops.
Withholding the flow of military and intel support has provided Zelensky and the EU warpigs with a very sobering ice-cold bath.
Now Team Trump has to contend with the War Party media.
I’m seeing the exasperation of Rubio Vance and Hegseth as they respond to media inanity.
>…Muh, how come Ukraine has to make concessions, why doesn’t Russia make concessions?
If Team Trump were *really* being transparent, they’d answer: we haven’t even got close to having Russia at the negotiating table.
Russia holds most of the cards… we are playing with a very week hand.
Russia has a stockpile of weapons, an industrial base, innovation and is growing and extending its capacity and capability.
What Team Trump is desperate to conceal… the U$ cannot “confront China”, “contain” Iran and provide Israel with the money and weapons it demands.
The U$ is over extended.
It needs to resolve the Ukraine sink hole to allow itself some capacity to do Israel’s bidding re Iran, and derail the Chinese “belt and road” BRICS competition.
Here’s Rubio trying to explain to harridan kaitlyn Collins of the cartoon network
Why he’s easing off on the vitriol towards Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tUAxBFXGrP0
Posted by: Melaleuca | Mar 5 2025 1:47 utc | 84
It must be personally worrying for many Europeans who have grown out of the habit of invading each other’s neighbours and making countless alliances and re-alliances every few years at the drop of a hat or as it was through arranged marriages.
These nostalgic ‘heraldic’ ages are never returning. No matter how much the aristo leftovers expect them. There is no easy solution nvading forces and battlefields chasing each others armies. Technology has banished that return of barbarity
Alternatives? Well asked b.
Obviously, there are No Alternatives.
There can be none, in a overwhelming strategic defeat.
Further belligerence - resistance of that reality - is futile.
Having shot all the bolts, dozens of packages of sanctions and wunderwaffen and decades of highest level miltary planning with inumerable think tanks, academics and the combined imperial interllogence and miltary elites of every western nation - yes under a overarching US sphere of influence- to pick this fight to take EurAsia again has failed again.
Any further Resistance to stop trying is Futile.
The terms will be set by the ‘victors’ actually the surviving victims of these attacks; but probably not as expected.
The Multipolar New World Law Based Order arises it will not be doing the same shitty imperilaism as the Anglo European Holy Romans has.
That comes as a daily surprising in trying to frame that emerging global south as the same as ‘us’.
The EU has shown that its was only good for the freedoms it allowed the long suffering populations. It should return to its local currencies which also allows some common currency as well - with fintech being so advanced now there is no need for a Single Currency across peoples daily lives across borders.
The multipolar is based on sovereignty of all nations and their collaborations in multiple bilateral agreements. The WTO was a good basis for global trade. The IMF and WB and G7 not as much. They are the strategically defeated. They have to disband or reform but without the privileges built into their bullying global robber barony. No guaranteed rentierism for being financial service masters.
Many such changes that will result in many more regional Peoples being equally respected in a world of not just a couple of hundred ‘Nation States’ modelled on the Westphalian paradigm that led to centuries of each one having a bite at the role of world wide imperialism whilst being hollowed out of the wealth of its Peoples. There will be thousands instead! Many thousands even.
Germany’s with its own federated regions has actually very much better chances than its old European ‘partners’. With a final lifting of the yoke that has kept it as the brunt of that now well known Anglo imperial strategy, that it has suffered under for a century too - to keep it Down and The Russians Out by keeping the Americans (the acme of the Anglo Europeans centuries long imperial baton passing) IN.
That is what is changing. Western and Northern Europeans just have to align with their natural geophysical reality. As the extremities of the EurAsian continent, with the thousands of sovereign Peoplee, guaranteed socioeconomic security through their lives.
It does mean giving up the superiority complex and sitting on supposed western ‘moral’ high stools as a means of being at the top of the heap of wealth and power.
Germany has a better chance than France or Britain or Spain and Italy even. Because of its geolocation. It can finally achieve its civilisational duty, to that single happy EurAsia and so the whole world. Or it can let itself be led by the nose again, to the fascist delusional Garden.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Mar 5 2025 1:50 utc | 85
No matter how much the aristo leftovers expect them.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Mar 5 2025 1:50 utc | 86
Just fyi, I've just added two comments in regard to "aristo" leftovers to the other thread of today:
Posted by: Zet | Mar 5 2025 1:56 utc | 86
@ UWDude | Mar 5 2025 0:06 utc | 72
thanks for that info..
Posted by: james | Mar 5 2025 1:57 utc | 87
Refinnejenna | Mar 5 2025 0:57 utc | 79
Three Seas Initiative. There was a lot of chatter, conferences and bravado about this from (probably before), but certainly after the 2014 reintegration of Crimea into the RF.
I haven’t seen it receive too many pixels in 2022-25, but it’s still brewing in the background and Poland is basically its driver.
Around Christmas I was reading the extent of Polish military expenditure and expansion of capacity.
They have some long term plans for western Ukraine…. And Polish-American-Israelis have long been driving the Russia- Ukraine conflict.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Mar 5 2025 1:59 utc | 88
US-Congress now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6zaAzNXc50
Posted by: AG | Mar 5 2025 2:03 utc | 89
Sir calls a meeting and Tom attends [...]Posted by: MiGao | Mar 4 2025 22:34 utc | 50
LoLL!
Posted by: persiflo | Mar 5 2025 2:22 utc | 90
i can not watch speech.
but i think Trump is trying to make peace the medeival way by exchanging family members as hostages between warring parties to ensure peace, except with factories and power plants
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 5 2025 2:34 utc | 91
[email protected] did say "civilian US contractors on the ground in the Ukraine are the US's security guarantee, Russia would not dare attack them"....so Trump does have a plan.
The whole thing is a bit of a witches brew atm......
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Mar 5 2025 2:53 utc | 92
After subsidizing Europe with trillions of dollars in US aid and military coverage, the US has had enough.
The Biden insanity has come to an end........................................no more aid for fascist regimes, or their neo fascist fraud supporters like Sir Keir and Macron.
Posted by: tobias cole | Mar 5 2025 2:57 utc | 93
I hear the mineral deal also includes all profits from gas/oil transits and from the ports.
Protection racketeering is a uniquely American art of "diplomacy".
Posted by: Suresh | Mar 5 2025 3:14 utc | 94
@81
You underestimate the power a U.S. president has to stop and refuse to do things he decides are harming the U S republic.
One is impounding fraudulent appropriation.
Look at Kiev losing 100 billion.
Sunk cost fallacy abide all over the DC cabal. Stopping them is easy!
Kiev and NATO are all good money and lives after bad.
Let the msm complain.
Posted by: paddy | Mar 5 2025 3:14 utc | 95
Protection racketeering is a uniquely American art of "diplomacy".
Posted by: Suresh | Mar 5 2025 3:14 utc | 95
fuck Ukraine. they crooked their way into getting American goodies to fight Russia, now they reap the Mobster muscle demanding pay.
That's what they get for making a deal woth the devil.
Posted by: UWDude | Mar 5 2025 3:22 utc | 96
US-Congress now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6zaAzNXc50
Posted by: AG | Mar 5 2025 2:03 utc | 90
Ha ha. Jewgle won't open that link in my Android spy phone. It wants me to update my app. But I don't need or want any of the umpteen dozen 'improvements' on offer in the update.
Luckily, abc.net.au/news24 is broadcasting Trump's interminable TV rant live...
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 5 2025 3:42 utc | 97
Protection racketeering is a uniquely American art of "diplomacy".
Posted by: Suresh | Mar 5 2025 3:14 utc | 95
Russia takes 20% and the U.S. effortlessly takes half of the remaining country (40%) without losing tens of thousands of servicemen.
That’s why it’s hard to dislodge the hegemon.
Posted by: BillB | Mar 5 2025 3:47 utc | 98
"What are the alternatives?"
A Schengen area without a Brussels' administration, along with a local and uniform sharing of military responsibilities exclusively by the natons of the European subcontinent.
Less is more where governments are concerned.
Posted by: elmagnostic | Mar 5 2025 4:08 utc | 99
The comments to this entry are closed.
I am convinced a dissolution of NATO will be A GIFT to the New Europe. We will have peace revolution at unprecedented levels of modern history.
A Pax universalis.
This is also the reason the Eurocrats are fighting to keep it alive.
Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Mar 4 2025 20:12 utc | 1