Who Else Wants Access To Apple Users' Encrypted Data?
There is, for whatever reason, little online echo so far to this new Washington Post story:
U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts (archived)
Secret order requires blanket access to protected cloud backups around the world, which if implemented would undermine Apple’s privacy pledge to its users.
Security officials in the United Kingdom have demanded that Apple create a back door allowing them to retrieve all the content any Apple user worldwide has uploaded to the cloud, people familiar with the matter told The Washington Post.The British government’s undisclosed order, issued last month, requires blanket capability to view fully encrypted material, not merely assistance in cracking a specific account, and has no known precedent in major democracies.
The sole story author, Joseph Menn, is stationed in San Francisco and 'specializing on hacking, privacy and surveillance.' The 'people familiar with the matter' who talk through Menn are likely from the same wider area, i.e. from Apple in Cupertino.
The British demand is of course outrageous and will not be followed. But I wonder why the Brits would even try to go this way.
We know thanks to Edward Snowden's revelations that the British signal intelligence agency GCHQ is a mere offshoot of the U.S. National Security Agency. It may thus be that the real people trying to get access to Apple users' encrypted archives are sitting on the west coast of the Atlantic.
Or is it request coming from other structures?
The office of the Home Secretary has served Apple with a document called a technical capability notice, ordering it to provide access under the sweeping U.K. Investigatory Powers Act of 2016, which authorizes law enforcement to compel assistance from companies when needed to collect evidence, the people said.The law, known by critics as the Snoopers’ Charter, makes it a criminal offense to reveal that the government has even made such a demand. An Apple spokesman declined to comment.
Apple had been warned that such an order was coming and did protest to no avail.
Neither the Biden nor the Trump administration seem to support Apple:
Senior national security officials in the Biden administration had been tracking the matter since the United Kingdom first told the company it might demand access and Apple said it would refuse. It could not be determined whether they raised objections to Britain. Trump White House and intelligence officials declined to comment.One of the people briefed on the situation, a consultant advising the United States on encryption matters, said Apple would be barred from warning its users that its most advanced encryption no longer provided full security. The person deemed it shocking that the U.K. government was demanding Apple’s help to spy on non-British users without their governments’ knowledge. A former White House security adviser confirmed the existence of the British order.
Since the early days of the Internet government agencies all over the world have demanded open access to all data transferred by it. End-to-end encryption, as deployed by Apple, makes that impossible.
Backdoors, as the one the British demand, are a inherently dangerous. The 2024 hack of U.S. communication systems, allegedly by Chinese actors, had used a backdoor the U.S. and other governments had demanded:
This isn't the first time that CALEA-mandated wiretapping backdoors have been exploited by hackers. As computer security expert Nicholas Weaver pointed out for Lawfare in 2015, "any phone switch sold in the US must include the ability to efficiently tap a large number of calls. And since the US represents such a major market, this means virtually every phone switch sold worldwide contains 'lawful intercept' functionality."Two decades ago, that mandatory wiretapping capability was subverted by hackers targeting Vodafone Greece. They intercepted phone conversations of the country's prime minister and high political, law enforcement, and military officials, among others.
Which is to say that nobody appears to have learned anything between the 2004 hacking of government-mandated wiretapping capabilities at a Greek telecom and the 2024 hacking of government-mandated wiretapping capabilities at U.S. internet service providers. Well, unless we're counting the Chinese hackers. They seem to have learned quite a bit from the earlier experience.
If there is a backdoor to any system it WILL be abused. Not only by the government that demands its installation but also by others.
Since the 'Chinese' hack has become known U.S. officials have urged everyone to use end-to-end encryption:
In a joint December press briefing on the case with FBI leaders, a Department of Homeland Security official urged Americans not to rely on standard phone service for privacy and to use encrypted services when possible.Also that month, the FBI, National Security Agency and the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency joined in recommending dozens of steps to counter the Chinese hacking spree, including “Ensure that traffic is end-to-end encrypted to the maximum extent possible.”
Officials in Canada, New Zealand and Australia endorsed the recommendations. Those in the United Kingdom did not.
The best way to prevent snooping access requests is to liberate the data of those people who demand it. Some Apple engineer might want to think about that.
Posted by b on February 7, 2025 at 16:32 UTC | Permalink
next page »Never trust data safety that is outside your direct control.
And even there… the tools or even the hardware can be compromised.
Apple was assumed less risky, that’s why you paid more.
Even there…Never liked cloud accounts. (I.e. somebody else’s servers)
For the general public a good question is, do you prefer your government or the Russian/Chinese government to know everything you do.
As for another point b makes, 5 eyes means whatever a government can’t do to their citizens, one of the others can provide (and of course the unofficial 6th AO, Israel )
Posted by: Newbie | Feb 7 2025 16:46 utc | 2
5 eyes is struggling to maintain it's control over everything.... intel agencies are running everything these days... thanks b...
Posted by: james | Feb 7 2025 16:53 utc | 4
Newbie @2
Apple was assumed less risky, that’s why you paid more.Apple participated in PRISM, shared its phone location service data with the NSA, allowed/enabled the CIA and Mossad to access iOS, complies with endless warrants without a fight, etc., etc.
Apple products are expensive b/c of their branding, and one of their marketing ploys is to lie endlessly about their supposed respect for "privacy", going all the way back to the famous 1984 Macintosh commercial. They're liars and they've always lied. Just like Google's slogan is "Do no Evil".
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 17:03 utc | 5
The U.K. and also apparently Apple's customers don't understand what a Private Key is.
For more security than simply not sharing their private keys people can alternatively choose to encrypt their data with a one time pad.
Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2025 17:16 utc | 6
"and has no known precedent in major democracies."
US imperialism has a backdoor to virtually all telecommunications and internet companies. Nobody reports it, but such access has been demanded and received since early in the "war on terror". There are some exceptions, especially with foreign companies, but it's safer to assume anything you put out there can be observed by our masters.
Yet, it's a lot of data and there is no way to monitor it all at once in real time. So, they only start digging up your past once you become a thorn in their side.
B's suggestion of releasing the data of the requesting party only is excellent. These tech folks are workers too. Their jobs have become more scarce and tightly control. Within this section of the working class there was just a few years back a significant anti war sentiment.
Can you imagine what a revolutionary union of tech workers could do?
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Feb 7 2025 17:20 utc | 7
If someone can do things behind closed doors with little oversight you can bank eventually the temptation to get away with something will arise. That the Brits didn't want anyone to know falls into that. Who is watching the watchers? If you aren't worried about your privacy, well good for you that you lead a boring life. But what if you are a journalist writing a book on someone/thing or involved in a business or development project? People will pay to see what's stored on your cloud.
Posted by: WG | Feb 7 2025 17:30 utc | 8
Apple products are expensive b/c of their branding, and one of their marketing ploys is to lie endlessly about their supposed respect for "privacy"
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 17:03 utc | 5
---
Remember "The Fappining"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Fappening&redirect=no
Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2025 17:32 utc | 9
I do not understand where the rumour comes from, that apple is more into data protection.
First read about NSL (national security letters) and you know everything coming from an american company IS unsafe.
Apple was known to provide "lawful intercept" terminals to so called security agencies for decades. My guess is, this is just a commercial which shall give people the impression, that apple cares about their privacy (they don't) or will fight for your right to that (they won't). At every live hacking event apple devices are the first to bend over, their software (plus the infamous combo with Adobe) is known to be crap and people STILL believe them to be better. That will never seize to amaze me.
Posted by: Pfeilchen | Feb 7 2025 17:35 utc | 10
Blackberry was the leader-but because it had a great encryption system the Powers That Be had to kill it.
In strong support of
"
Never, ever use cloud services.
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2025 16:51 utc | 3
"
I noticed in some other comment you have techie background similar to mine....grin
Apple is a pain to use w/o the cloud turned on but doable.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 7 2025 17:39 utc | 12
The matter is not so simple.
Because bad actors are absuing encryption technology to prevent gathering of evidence.
It is however the capture of the judiciary by outside political interests (re Trumps “trials”) and the non transparent oversight of wiretapping orders that creates bad faith in the population.
The laws are OK, the oversight is not.
Posted by: alek_a | Feb 7 2025 17:39 utc | 13
Because bad actors are absuing encryption technology to prevent gathering of evidence.
Posted by: alek_a | Feb 7 2025 17:39 utc | 13
---
Wut?
Are they holding it wrong?
Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2025 17:44 utc | 14
"Blackberry was the leader-but because it had a great encryption system the Powers That Be had to kill it.
Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2025 17:36 utc | 11"
Huawei's "sin" is that NSA can't hack it's encryption.
Posted by: lester | Feb 7 2025 17:45 utc | 15
Doesn't Congress say Tiktok is the Devil for collecting user's info? Surely this is worse?
Posted by: lester | Feb 7 2025 17:47 utc | 16
lester @15
Huawei's "sin" is that NSA can't hack it's encryption.And Tik-Tok's sin is that the NSA does not have a backdoor cable to access and data mine every single thing they collect. Of course, being "exceptional", they instead spin it as "The CCP has access to the data". Well, even if true: better them than Five Eyes+ (the "+" is of course Mossad, who gets full access to everything, the better to blackmail the politicians, judges, CEOs and celebrities of the "West").
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 17:49 utc | 17
It reminds me of the Frumentarii in ancient Rome. How they called themselves Nomads to protect their identity in foreign territory.
By the 2nd century, the need for an empire-wide intelligence service was clear. But even an emperor could not easily create a new bureau with the express purpose of spying on the citizens of Rome's far-flung domains.
A suitable compromise was found by Hadrian. He used the frumentarii as a spying agency because their duties brought them into contact with enough locals and natives, allowing them to acquire considerable intelligence about any given territory.
This organization was sometimes tasked with assassinating whomever the emperor wished. Peasants disliked the frumentarii due to false and arbitrary arrests. They were seen as a tyrannical "plague" on the empire. These complaints lead to the disbandment of the organization in 312 AD during the reign of Diocletian. The frumentarii were replaced by the agentes in rebus.
Hadrian's vigilance was not confined to his own household but extended to those of his friends, and by means of his private agents (frumentarios) he even pried into all their secrets, and so skilfully that they were never aware that the Emperor was acquainted with their private lives until he revealed it himself. In this connection, the insertion of an incident will not be unwelcome, showing that he found out much about his friends. The wife of a certain man wrote to her husband, complaining that he was so preoccupied by pleasures and baths that he would not return home to her, and Hadrian found this out through his private agents. And so, when the husband asked for a furlough, Hadrian reproached him with his fondness for his baths and his pleasures. Whereupon the man exclaimed: "What, did my wife write you just what she wrote to me?".
The Bowery King in the Films John Wick shows the future.. How it was done in the past.
Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Feb 7 2025 17:51 utc | 18
Ahenobarbus@1720Feb7
Technophobe here, so this comment comes from one quite ignorant as to the probability of AI ultimately supplanting most of those tech workers. So if I can suss that out; it is only logical to assume that the hacktivity crowd is completely on top of such developments and have planned accordingly.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 7 2025 18:06 utc | 19
Never, ever use cloud services.Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2025 16:51 utc | 3
Another vote in favour of this, “The Cloud” is just marketing hype for “someone else’s computer”.
I should change my screen name to “Grumpy old git in the corner, nursing his Nokia push-button phone, rickety old Linux laptop and a half of mild”...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 18:07 utc | 20
The BBC, bless their cotton socks, are covering the story here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20g288yldko
It’s actually quite a balanced piece, with quotes from the likes of Privacy International and Big Brother Watch etc.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 18:19 utc | 21
I should change my screen name to “Grumpy old git in the corner, nursing his Nokia push-button phone, rickety old Linux laptop and a half of mild”...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 18:07 utc | 20
###########
I knew you were a brother from another mother.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 18:20 utc | 22
Never, ever use cloud services.
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2025 16:51 utc | 3
True, depending on your own situation, for any personal or political info/data. But if you're going to host all your own email (Gmail, Outlook, even Proton are "cloud" based), have a plan to immediately destroy or render inert any hard drives or other memory you may physically possess or lease (for example, friend's or local company* server).
* also if you're going to be extra careful, just insofar as data is concerned (not traffic that's another matter), make sure nobody you buy storage from is backing up to the "cloud."
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 7 2025 18:27 utc | 23
b,
I am sorry, but it is impossible for the vast majority of Apple users to liberate their data, even if they wanted to.
First of all, the amounts are so large now that it is non trivial to move such data around for non technical types.
But the far bigger problem is usability: Apple cloud not only stores but provides access to this data via various Apple OS features.
Moving said data out of the cloud is tantamount to going to a burner phone: the vast majority of people will not do it.
Posted by: c1ue | Feb 7 2025 18:28 utc | 24
O/T
https://yasha.substack.com/p/usaid-and-security-state-clan-wars
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 7 2025 18:29 utc | 25
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 18:19 utc | 21
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 18:20 utc | 22
Make that three.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Feb 7 2025 18:33 utc | 26
Never trust data safety that is outside your direct control.Posted by: Newbie | Feb 7 2025 16:46 utc | 2
A.k.a. Counterparty Risk 101 :)
The same should be applied to any of your dealings on the Interwebz, unless you've created the app and control its servers...
Posted by: ThirdWorldDude | Feb 7 2025 18:36 utc | 27
Never, ever use cloud services.Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2025 16:51 utc | 3
I agree, if it is anything that is real.
But everyone should just start uploading encrypted, then encrypted, then encrypted again, worthless gibberish. Massive files of nothing but incoherent garbage even if decrypted. Let them sift through billions of files for nothing.
Let the data centers overflow with worthless text and blank images.
Posted by: saner | Feb 7 2025 18:38 utc | 28
Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Feb 7 2025 17:51 utc | 18
And here I just thought Hadrian built a wall somewhere in Scotland!
Herr b has assembled some great minds at his bar. MoA is the greatest!
Posted by: lex talionis | Feb 7 2025 18:39 utc | 29
Apple is a pain to use w/o the cloud turned on but doable.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 7 2025 17:39 utc | 12
10 years no cloud, no siri
-------------------
Technophobe here, so this comment comes from one quite ignorant as to the probability of AI ultimately supplanting most of those tech workers. So if I can suss that out; it is only logical to assume that the hacktivity crowd is completely on top of such developments and have planned accordingly.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 7 2025 18:06 utc | 19
Technophile, but suspicious.
-------------------------
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2025 16:51 utc | 3
Another vote in favour of this, “The Cloud” is just marketing hype for “someone else’s computer”.
I should change my screen name to “Grumpy old git in the corner, nursing his Nokia push-button phone, rickety old Linux laptop and a half of mild”...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 18:07 utc | 20
Said as much at 2 "Even there…Never liked cloud accounts. (I.e. somebody else’s servers)"
-------------
Huawei's "sin" is that NSA can't hack it's encryption.
And Tik-Tok's sin is that the NSA does not have a backdoor cable to access and data mine every single thing they collect. Of course, being "exceptional", they instead spin it as "The CCP has access to the data". Well, even if true: better them than Five Eyes+ (the "+" is of course Mossad, who gets full access to everything, the better to blackmail the politicians, judges, CEOs and celebrities of the "West").
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 17:49 utc | 17
Yes, once again
"For the general public a good question is, do you prefer your government or the Russian/Chinese government to know everything you do.
As for another point b makes, 5 eyes means whatever a government can’t do to their citizens, one of the others can provide (and of course the unofficial 6th AO, Israel )"
Posted by: Newbie | Feb 7 2025 18:40 utc | 30
Since the EU started to attack Apple aggressively & nearly exclusively under the umbrella of the Digital Markets/Services Acts, I envisioned that there's more to it than just consumer protection...
And my first guess was: they are putting pressure on Apple because it's the only one rejecting the complete scanning of photos or other cloud content. All other big ones are already on board and don't even offer an end-to-end encrypted solution for the common consumer... maybe the NSA has access already, maybe not but certainly not the UK or EU and they are all pushing to more authoritarian policies.
Remember: it's an existential fight for them too – we're in the interregnum, the phase of the monsters.
Posted by: Zet | Feb 7 2025 18:42 utc | 31
Posted by: ChatNPC | Feb 7 2025 18:33 utc | 26
#########
I don't believe in coincidences. It was fate that all 3 of us (and maybe more) crossed paths at MoA.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 18:57 utc | 32
I don’t believe Apple are any more secure than other players and proceed on the basis that the “spooks” have all your details anyway and know what you look at.
What I find disgusting is the flaccid response to the way the UK passes these ‘laws’ with little or no public scrutiny. And when any members of the public do protest they’re told that it has to be secret because of “national security” which by definition can’t be discussed. There is no member of the fourth estate that has any balls that will discuss this and protest. So it's left to the few remaining independent journalists and sites like this. If they become problematic, they’ll be shut down. We have precious few freedoms left.
Posted by: Vragtes | Feb 7 2025 18:57 utc | 33
Further to 28
https://randomtextgenerator.com/
A simple script to have this churn out hundreds of pages of gibberish and run it through encryption several times, would work. Then place it in a .zip and upload a new one daily/hourly/constantly.
Posted by: saner | Feb 7 2025 18:58 utc | 35
maybe the NSA has access already, maybe not
Posted by: Zet | Feb 7 2025 18:42 utc | 31
---
Of course the iPhone is broken by design. It has been well documented. China forbids their use. I believe Russia takes a more subtle approach to the vulnerability.
Operation Triangulation: The last (hardware) mystery27 Dec 2023
Today, on December 27, 2023, we (Boris Larin, Leonid Bezvershenko, and Georgy Kucherin) delivered a presentation, titled, “Operation Triangulation: What You Get When Attack iPhones of Researchers”, at the 37th Chaos Communication Congress (37C3), held at Congress Center Hamburg. The presentation summarized the results of our long-term research into Operation Triangulation, conducted with our colleagues, Igor Kuznetsov, Valentin Pashkov, and Mikhail Vinogradov.
...
Recent iPhone models have additional hardware-based security protection for sensitive regions of the kernel memory. This protection prevents attackers from obtaining full control over the device if they can read and write kernel memory, as achieved in this attack by exploiting CVE-2023-32434. We discovered that to bypass this hardware-based security protection, the attackers used another hardware feature of Apple-designed SoCs.
If we try to describe this feature and how the attackers took advantage of it, it all comes down to this: they are able to write data to a certain physical address while bypassing the hardware-based memory protection by writing the data, destination address, and data hash to unknown hardware registers of the chip unused by the firmware.
Our guess is that this unknown hardware feature was most likely intended to be used for debugging or testing purposes by Apple engineers or the factory, or that it was included by mistake. Because this feature is not used by the firmware, we have no idea how attackers would know how to use it.
We are publishing the technical details, so that other iOS security researchers can confirm our findings and come up with possible explanations of how the attackers learned about this hardware feature.
full report ==> https://securelist.com/operation-triangulation-the-last-hardware-mystery/111669/
video presentation ==> https://youtu.be/7VWNUUldBEE
Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2025 19:03 utc | 36
Blackberry was the leader-but because it had a great encryption system the Powers That Be had to kill it.
Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2025 17:36 utc | 11
Yup, true that. And Snowden is in exile due to exposing what was exposed regarding the NSA over a decade earlier. Every communication by any electrical/electronic/satellite supported means, is recorded and if required, monitored. Maybe a ham radio connection could provide anonymity.
All our devices are watched. MoA users are and our tendencies and connections to others are catalogued. I know personally. CSIS and the RCMP have large files (foi requests and court discovered) on me, having organized and participated in many non-conforming protests and uprisings.
Stay low to the ground with your popcorn. It’s a great show. (Though I still look over my shoulder and keep my back to the wall)
Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Feb 7 2025 19:16 utc | 37
Jimmy Carter said when he wanted to ensure a private, unintercepted communication, he sent letters through the mail.
Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2025 19:03 utc | 36
But that's an attack on a single device; technically totally different. But yes, in my personal opinion, the NSA or other USraeli security services are able to hack into any device – no question about that, see Predator or all those other tools.
The question is: do they have access to cloud contents without hacking a device of the target first.
So far I didn't see anything in regard to that but I'm not living in an illusion and do expect that the US can nearly read/break anything incl. commonly used encryption algorithms which are industry standards or considered safe.
Posted by: Zet | Feb 7 2025 19:20 utc | 39
Rule number 1 of OpSec: Data that does not exist can't be compromised.
Anything beyond is free for all.
Posted by: kspr | Feb 7 2025 19:28 utc | 40
Another thing worth thinking about:
if Apple got a notice from the UK then all other cloud providers also got that notice. Amazon, Google, Samsung, Microsoft – nobody from them complained or leaked something so we can expect that they are all complying silently or already did so (because none of them even offers end-to-end encryption).
That's probably the bigger story...
Posted by: Zet | Feb 7 2025 19:31 utc | 41
China forbids their use. I believe Russia takes a more subtle approach to the vulnerability.
too scents | Feb 7 2025 19:03 utc | 36
They banned them as well for government or other official uses. Google says it's since 2023. In China the ban seems to include more categories.
Posted by: rk | Feb 7 2025 19:38 utc | 42
"Never, ever use cloud services" - Norwegian 3
Or, as I like to say, never store/share your data on a random stranger's computer. Would you store your valuables in a public area expecting to see them untouched. Would you trust your car to a stranger on the street who wanted to borrow it? Your child? I mean, buy your own storage and when you "share" know you are sharing with the world on a strangers terms.
cloud services like everything from Silt&Con Valley, for the last twenty years, is nefarious bullshit.
Posted by: S Brennan | Feb 7 2025 19:40 utc | 43
The working hypothesis of those of us in opposition to "Empire" should be that this UK/WaPo article is just another psyop.
They want you to believe that Apple encryption is still secure and there is no backdoor.
Reminds me of some of the dubious terror attacks of the past where law enforcement issued press releases saying they could not bypass the password protection of the deceased's iPhones. Okaaaay...
Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Feb 7 2025 19:51 utc | 44
There is no member of the fourth estate that has any balls that will discuss this and protest. So it's left to the few remaining independent journalists and sites like this. If they become problematic, they’ll be shut down. We have precious few freedoms left.Posted by: Vragtes | Feb 7 2025 18:57 utc | 33
The commercial media exist in a dirty symbiosis with the political establishment.
The former 'leaks' scandals, the more lascivious the better, and the media publicise them for $$$$$$.
The fourth estate is a fairy tale.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Feb 7 2025 19:52 utc | 45
Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Feb 7 2025 19:51 utc | 44
##########
The core idea of being responsible with one's online activity is sound regardless of the hardware or country.
Focusing on Apple is thinking too small to be useful, one way or the other.
Every modern web page has trackers embedded and all of us leave a trail behind us when we follow any link or make any search.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 19:56 utc | 46
@ c1ue | Feb 7 2025 18:28 utc | 24 - and others
aside from apple as an iphone, what other choices are their that don't have everything in the cloud?? general question.. i don't have a cell phone and my computer is linux with no connection to apple... thanks.. what do the chinese use?? are they storing stuff in clouds too??
Posted by: james | Feb 7 2025 19:58 utc | 47
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 17:49 utc | 17
The biggest sin of TikTok is that it's content curating algorithms are not controlled by western entities.
Moral panic aside, the way TikTok works is way more 'democratic' and user centered than any pendant of the silicon valley conglomerates.
TikTok was big part of mobilizing the younger generations against the atrocities in Gaza.
Posted by: kspr | Feb 7 2025 19:59 utc | 48
Every modern web page has trackers embedded and all of us leave a trail behind us when we follow any link or make any search.Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 19:56 utc | 46
Privacy comments on this thread are kind of comical, since b's site still uses the obsolete TypePad platform and has Google Analytics embedded.
Mobile phones are more valuable than home devices to government intel and private data harvesters because they can provide real time location information in addition to other user behaviors. Hence "download our app".
I was a Blackberry user for 15+ years and recently switched to a Huawei with the Harmony 4.x OS, since I trust neither Apple or Android. At home I use different browsers for different activities. All social media is done exclusively on the Brave browser. No Chrome or Safari.
Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Feb 7 2025 20:13 utc | 49
Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Feb 7 2025 20:13 utc | 49
If it doesn't work in Firefox it's not worth using anyway.
Tongue in cheek, but lets be real, 95% of 'Apps' do nothing but render a webpage while asking for a ridiculous amount of permissions to slurp data.
In the end you can run a VPN, hide behind seven proxies and only use onion services and yet, you'll leave a trace for anyone who is willing to put in the work and ressources.
No system can be 100% secure, never will be.
Posted by: kspr | Feb 7 2025 20:24 utc | 50
Privacy comments on this thread are kind of comical, since b's site still uses the obsolete TypePad platform and has Google Analytics embedded.Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Feb 7 2025 20:13 utc | 49
Some of us take measures to actively manage third-party scripts. Sure, it can break things at times, but it surprises many people how quickly sites can load when a lot of third-party cruft and crud is blocked.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 20:43 utc | 51
Privacy comments on this thread are kind of comical, since b's site still uses the obsolete TypePad platform and has Google Analytics embedded.
Mobile phones are more valuable than home devices to government intel and private data harvesters because they can provide real time location information in addition to other user behaviors. Hence "download our app".
I was a Blackberry user for 15+ years and recently switched to a Huawei with the Harmony 4.x OS, since I trust neither Apple or Android. At home I use different browsers for different activities. All social media is done exclusively on the Brave browser. No Chrome or Safari.
Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Feb 7 2025 20:13 utc | 49
###############
1. They are comical because the first comment by me was that anything you do on a network will be cataloged and referred to later.
2. Your browser doesn't block every network logging all activity.
Too many people are thinking too small.
The only way to have privacy and security is to remain offline, completely. Even ToR traffic is monitored and documented. That said, I have had the feeling for some time that ToR is a honeypot.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 21:04 utc | 52
LoveDonbass @52
The only way to have privacy and security is to remain offline, completely.And ... (1) never carry a mobile phone, or if you want to be especially careful, spend time with anyone else who does, and (2) never spend time where there is a "security" camera or microphone, or where a satellite or drone (getting ever smaller and cheaper) can see you ....
Even if you remain offline with your computer (which largely defeats the point of owning one), there are methods to access it remotely (though it's currently expensive enough using EM technology that you only have to worry if you are a high value spy target, if someone has a backdoor to your computer, they can transmit data out without you even knowing it using, e.g., sound through your speakers you can't hear, invisible patterns on your monitor, WiFi/bluetooth connections to devices you don't know about, etc., etc.).
That said, I have had the feeling for some time that ToR is a honeypot.I suspect all "privacy apps" are honey pots - who has a greater incentive to set up these "privacy" companies - that hold all your data -, or to buy out the successful ones through their massive "private equity fund" portfolios, than the spooks?
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 21:22 utc | 53
@ FMT 49
Not all devices/sims are registered, in which case until you enter personal info tracking is not easily 'personal' - it is possible to run open on say Android for all that has no account attached.
I spend little time on phone, so 'dumb phones' switched off unless needed, plus one fully visible Android for mundane mobile web (plus identical as backup).
Then for browsing and any work similar to pc, a tablet de-googled and firewalled (inc. system) for all but essential apps. Apps from apkpure or mirror. Modem completely firewalled.
Have tried most browsers on Android, Opera was good for usability but ott now, plus no export and little privacy. Fennec allowed extensions, latest firefox also - good for de-fingerprinting. Via is light, berry browser is good also. Lite browser, security browser are basic but clean. Depends on what balance anyone wants.
Windows PC (as familiar with that system) third party firewall, but rarely connected to web and then with only essential application allowed through. Looking at linux also.
Just to say there are many combinations of setup that 'work', but first people have to understand what suits and where weaknesses are. All the above is just standard privacy for me, not to stay untrackable etc.
No cloud, email simple but open...various accounts for different, Proton probably the most secure of them.
Majority of people actually seem to want attention, posting all photos and other details openly. When someone says they prefer to use encrypted coms, or even when they refuse to share images by email, they often get labelled in some way. The whole culture is useless in that sense.
As everything put online, or that is stored on a connected computer, is accessible, and often very easily, anyone should just assume that that data is being accessed. Meaning approach all info and data connected as an open and visible board.
To do better anyone is going to have to do research and figure it out themselves for their circumstance I supose.
"The working hypothesis of those of us in opposition to "Empire" should be that this UK/WaPo article is just another psyop."
That or someone important forgot their password and need to access their account and data.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-92c6a7138946479fc7ad02aa28d539a0
Posted by: Ornot | Feb 7 2025 21:23 utc | 54
The Jewish State has achieved total victory over the paleshitians…heheheh
Posted by: Palestine Erased! | Feb 7 2025 21:27 utc | 55
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 21:22 utc | 53
############
Data is valuable, American capitalism has turned it into another vehicle ripe for financialization, like mortgage debt.
The data can be garbage, it's volume and ability to be infinitely resold creates huge incentives to collect and repurpose it even to completely differentiated foreign markets.
I am obviously not offline but the other parts of my life are very much are away from tech. I still love to put pen (mechanical pencil) to paper for hours every day.
As Theodore John Kaczynski wisely once said,
"The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race."
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 21:36 utc | 56
@Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 7 2025 18:27 utc | 23
True, depending on your own situation, for any personal or political info/data. But if you're going to host all your own email (Gmail, Outlook, even Proton are "cloud" based), have a plan to immediately destroy or render inert any hard drives or other memory you may physically possess or lease (for example, friend's or local company* server).I don't use any of those email services. I use a local cheap one and access it with POP3 using Thunderbird. By default with POP3 you download all email locally and delete it on the server. But you can set up rules to keep things on the server with POP3 as well.
I have local copies of all my email back to 1999, and I used to receive A LOT of email, much less now. Local disk space is not a problem, I have lots of backup copies of them too.
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2025 21:39 utc | 57
I have always told my kids to keep themselves out of Sauron's gaze, and they grew up as IT savvy and work in the field...and they know exactly what I'm talking about...
Posted by: pyrrhus | Feb 7 2025 21:45 utc | 58
Posted by: saner | Feb 7 2025 18:38 utc | 28
We need the equivalent of the SETI screensaver only as a phone app comprising chatbots programmed to argue with other (the finer points of MMT versus the gold standard, mayhap) with encryption.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Feb 7 2025 21:52 utc | 59
LoveDonbass @56
"The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race."I don't know about it being a disaster for the human race, maybe we'll annihilate ourselves but nature would eventually take care of that anyway. In the meantime population has increased tenfold from pre-Industrial revolution periods, which seems to be bullish for humanity.
On a more personal level, I spend a lot of time thinking about how extremely difficult the life of those who lived where I live was 300 years ago - no health care or pain management, food scarcity/malnutrition/starvation, difficult transportation (almost impossible in winter months), short life expectancy, limited entertainment options, etc. - not even a mechanical pencil ;) - and how probably 90% of the population would die off within a few months simply if the power grid were destroyed globally, returning us to pre-Industrial revolution levels. In fact a poor person in the West today is arguably much better off than European monarchs during the Renaissance.
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 22:16 utc | 61
As others have said Apple somehow allows the individual applications anyway. If you take a gander at the link to the bbc which Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Feb 7 2025 18:19 utc | 21 pasted you will notice that it mentions a number of amerikan Fed applications to Apple.
Apple claims to have denied them all; however in every case the litigation was ended because the Feds gained access by 'other means'.
Logic tells us that the Feds withdrawing from the lawsuit just because they allegedly 'found another way that time' makes no sense. The amerikan 3LA's are not naive, they know that there will be other times in future when they want to access another account so why end litigation?
It seems to me obvious, a target's key is quietly 'leaked' to the Feds on condition the case is dropped. I cannot think of another reason. If the Feds knew they had a weak case & didn't want to establish a precedent, surely Apple would know that too, and bring a lawsuit to prevent more suits in future.
I realised back in the noughties that all amerikan-based security was non-existent. I had been using PGP with my eudora email client since sometime in the 90's when eudora introduced the feature. Then suddenly eudora email client disappeared from the market. Qualcomm who had the rights to eudora decided that it was not part of their core business, whatever that means.
I kept using it up until my email service replaced the old POP3 with IMAP. I dunno whether that was the kicker or whether cit just occurred separately when a decision was made to 'upgrade' their servers and shift everyone outta email clients and into the much easier to police browser action. I vaguely remember harassing the service about this and they reckoned that it was still perfectly possible to use a client but it had to be a 'recent' one. The fact that meant no more simple encrypted email was purely incidental ask the client's developers or some such was what I was told (mid-noughties when perseverance would eventually get you a human on the 'service' desk).
Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 7 2025 23:49 utc | 62
Blackberry was the leader-but because it had a great encryption system the Powers That Be had to kill it.
Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2025 17:36 utc | 11"
"Huawei's "sin" is that NSA can't hack it's encryption."
Posted by: lester | Feb 7 2025 17:45 utc | 15
Touché
I don't believe in coincidences. It was fate that all 3 of us (and maybe more) crossed paths at MoA.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 18:57 utc | 32
************
Not fate: destiny!
.... and I'm in the dust, just behind you.
Posted by: General Factotum | Feb 8 2025 0:44 utc | 64
"that the British signal intelligence agency GCHQ is a mere offshoot of the U.S. National Security Agency."
The internet is well provided with lunatics who argue that it's vice versa. The more extreme of them seem to think that MI6 was behind the crucifixion of Jesus.
Posted by: dearieme | Feb 8 2025 1:20 utc | 65
Apple's E2EE encryption relies on Apple being the encryption key broker. When iMessage is used to send a message, the device queries Apple's servers for the recipient's public key(s). Apple could silently insert an extra public key for additional users and share it with others, like a government agency. Messages are then encrypted to both the recipient and the extra key without the user knowing.
Sender & initial recipient have no way of detecting this. Apple then deletes the shared extra key and truthfully says they don't have access to messages or private keys, and that the strong encryption is still in place.
As long as Apple remains the key broker this will ALWAYS be a hole.
Posted by: Pyrrho | Feb 8 2025 1:25 utc | 66
The same thing with a telephone. If the gov wants to be listening in they are listening in. I take it as a given that these new data centers that have to do with AI are really data collection centers. That is 'them' listening in and remembering everything knowable about us. And even if I am wrong in the short run, that is what they will become. Whether the AI BS is real or fake, it will become the cover story for intense snooping by the government. It is the way of the world.
Posted by: Jmaas | Feb 8 2025 1:26 utc | 67
Ahenobarbus@1720Feb7
Technophobe here, so this comment comes from one quite ignorant as to the probability of AI ultimately supplanting most of those tech workers. So if I can suss that out; it is only logical to assume that the hacktivity crowd is completely on top of such developments and have planned accordingly.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 7 2025 18:06 utc | 19
Speak plain, man! Your defensive coded gibberish is truly indecipherable.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Feb 8 2025 1:28 utc | 68
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Feb 8 2025 1:28 utc | 68
He conflates proletized tech workers organizing with some kind of vigilante master minds haxxoring the matrix.
Posted by: kspr | Feb 8 2025 1:32 utc | 69
Very interesting comments on this thread. On cloud use, I agree that cloud sotrage should be avoided like the plague for anything important. I just use it for old ripped LPs. But why bother, really? Bulk storage is incredibly cheap. I use 4Tb SSD drives in a USB-3 caddy, so the SSDs can be swapped out as required (alternative OS, system backups, secure data) and they're inherently offline. You can clone your OS with different storage partitions, for example, and if something fails just change the onboard SSD and reboot. Not expensive.
For secure communications, I've been wondering if there's a way to automate book code encryption? Very old school, but with the Gutenberg Project probably impossible to decrypt.
Thanks for the advice about Huawei, I'll definitely make that the next phone I get.
As to the state of UK IT snooping, the current government is unaccountable and there is no effective opposition to draconian legislation or anything else. (There are three neocon parties and small change.) I'm not sure when irrational becomes insane, but Starmer is for once leading the way.
Posted by: Tom Paine | Feb 8 2025 1:44 utc | 70
If the so called "Deep State" are so clever at spying on everything and everyone ... tell me how Trump and Elon were able to pull their undies over their heads in the first couple of weeks ... and no one saw it coming?
I mean, everyone knew Trump's intent, we all know he holds grudges and we had a pretty good idea who were sitting in the Trump crosshairs. But gutting out USAID and gaining control of the entire Treasury payments system? He must have been planning that. No one could do those moves without at least a discussion and perhaps a rehearsal. Why weren't they able to hack Trump and follow his every move?
Posted by: Tel | Feb 8 2025 1:47 utc | 72
Posted by: Tel | Feb 8 2025 1:47 utc | 72
###############
I have a theory about how the Zionists have felt let down by the Dems, and they backed Trump's play as long as he was beholden to them.
The Zionists don't care what happens to America as long as they can squeeze it dry. Everyone with bad motives abuses their resources. Being conservative and cautious is anathema to being a psychopath. Psychopaths have to express their mental illness and superiority which leads to blind spots.
About Trump and Musk, I think what is going on is that the Dems didn't think they would move this fast or surgically.
Between Truth Social and Twitter, Trump and Musk have been driving the narrative, which is a very uncomfortable place for Dems to find themselves in. Musk alone on Twitter is eviscerating every attempt at pushback in real time.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 8 2025 1:57 utc | 73
Oh, and going after USAID and now the CFPB, they are cutting the Dems' media mechanisms at the roots before a narrative about orange Hitler can advance.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 8 2025 1:58 utc | 74
Posted by: kspr | Feb 8 2025 1:32 utc | 69
b's blog was days ahead of the media on the payments system coup.
Here's the updates on the take over of the payments system.
https://bsky.app/profile/nathantankus.bsky.social
I told you all Nathan was the best in the world when it comes to monetary architecture of the United states. Nobody else on the planet comes close.
The media are trying to say that Musks top programmer Marko Elez’s resignation was because of some fascist tweet.
Simply not true it was Nathan and the exposure of what Elez was up to that made him resign.
Now JD Vance and Musk are trying to get him to come back. Elez knew fine well what he was doing was unconstitutional and broke every law in the land. In the dark he would have got away with it. Because of Nathan highlighting the issue the US media outlets now know what Elez has been up to. Nathan has been in Rolling Stone magazine on Bloomberg exposing what you guys read on Moon of Alabama days before virtually anybody else.
Will Elez come back now everybody knows what he has been up to?
My guess it depends if Trump Pardons him. Because what he had done is some very , very , very serious crimes indeed. Can a guy like that a young computer programmer face the world afterwards knowing they know what he has been up to and ran a steam roller through the constitution?
Or will be say fuck that Elon. I am not risking my future for you. It is probably too late for that now anyway as the crime has been committed.
Where It goes from here nobody knows. Follow the blue sky feed above for the updates.
Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Feb 8 2025 1:59 utc | 75
@70 Tom
If I wanted encrypted messaging then I would write the message on an offline computer, encrypt it using a trusted high grade open source application, then transfer it by USB to an email message as an attachment, and head the email with references to the decryption key.
That reference would be similar to your book code. The receiver would either be given a gridded card of symbols or privately know a book to use. Eg. P15L4Ch7 would be one character of the decryption key (page 15 line 4 character 7) or for a card something like R4L3 (symbol at row 4 line 3).
They decrypt offline.
Not perfect and would need pre-arranging, but probably as secure as we are likely to get ?
Posted by: Ornot | Feb 8 2025 2:04 utc | 76
The beauty of this kind of shit is that all the spy people have tons of personal shit backed up in the all too easily hackable "cloud". How many encryption keys are kept handy in Google Keep, heh heh.
Posted by: comrade simba | Feb 8 2025 2:11 utc | 77
Now a rightie is in charge in Washington.
Nothing whatsoever from the Judge, Larry Johnson, Duran or anybody in any of these shows about just how seriously unconstitutional it has all been.
When Biden was in charge unconstitutional was flavour of the week on a daily basis. Quite rightly so.
I guess it is now only us true lefties nowadays that calls a spade a spade when we see one. Everybody else now views the constitution as a moveable feast depending on ones ideology.
USAID was the disco lights that diverted everybody's attention away from the other crimes that were being comitted.
God bless Nathan Tankus. A true American Patriot for highlighting it to the world.
Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Feb 8 2025 2:13 utc | 78
Tel | Feb 8 2025 1:47 utc | 72
Why weren't they able to hack Trump and follow his every move?
-?do those moves without at least a discussion and perhaps a rehearsal?
IMVHO that’s what was happening in the basement at Mar-a-Lago.
Trump controlled Fiefdom.
And yeah, NSA and the Intel guys are The Smartest Guys in the Room. They were operating with hubris and conceit.
But Elon and his autist Wunderkids are just as smart….. and none of the smart career intel guys were paying attention to some acne riddled dweb.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Feb 8 2025 2:15 utc | 79
He conflates proletized tech workers organizing with some kind of vigilante master minds haxxoring the matrix.
Posted by: kspr | Feb 8 2025 1:32 utc | 69
AI wars are coming, and security/war AIs will be reduced to gibberish spouting imbeciles or double agents giving bad directives to overdependent generals.
--------On a more personal level, I spend a lot of time thinking about how extremely difficult the life of those who lived where I live was 300 years ago - no health care or pain management, food scarcity/malnutrition/starvation, difficult transportation (almost impossible in winter months), short life expectancy, limited entertainment options, etc. - not even a mechanical pencil ;) - and how probably 90% of the population would die off within a few months simply if the power grid were destroyed globally, returning us to pre-Industrial revolution levels. In fact a poor person in the West today is arguably much better off than European monarchs during the Renaissance.
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 7 2025 22:16 utc | 61
So do I. People lamenting technology annoy me. Everything we have, we have because the vast majority of people wanted it. There are still land line phones. You can still mail in forms and resumes. You dont have to ise technology, you do so because it is so convenient.
And as we are starting to see, as I predicted, AI is not going to be one giant government control machine. Competition and evolution will kill the lie machines like chatGPT. AI can not function on lies. In the end, AI will deliver only truth, because the lying AIs will be destroyed, or destroy their controllers. The future is as bright as it always has been for humanity.
Think about how we now have any music we want at our fingertips. used to be best you had was singing, the bar, or church.
and then there is pizza, or any food, at almost any time. 300 years ago, lack of vitamin c in winter was deadly.
i could literally go on forever, be ause I could point out how every single technology has made life better, and by the time I had explained all those, there would be more, newer ones.
Ted Kazscinsky was just another cranky old hermit.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 2:16 utc | 80
If the so called "Deep State" are so clever at spying on everything and everyone ... tell me how Trump and Elon were able to pull their undies over their heads in the first couple of weeks ... and no one saw it coming?
I mean, everyone knew Trump's intent, we all know he holds grudges and we had a pretty good idea who were sitting in the Trump crosshairs. But gutting out USAID and gaining control of the entire Treasury payments system? He must have been planning that. No one could do those moves without at least a discussion and perhaps a rehearsal. Why weren't they able to hack Trump and follow his every move?
Posted by: Tel | Feb 8 2025 1:47 utc | 72
This isn't unique. for data to be useful it has to be accessible. That is why Snowden could pick up so much info. Getting rid of data at the last minute as the enemy approaches is a common problem in war. With regard to "payments," they can't be kept to secret or people will start stealing the money.
Posted by: Jmaas | Feb 8 2025 2:21 utc | 81
Why weren't they able to hack Trump and follow his every move?
Posted by: Tel | Feb 8 2025 1:47 utc | 72
You really think that Musk is texting Donny like "bro, let's do a fascist takeover and kick ass at USAID!"
Really? And while sitting for days in mar-a-Lago they probably used Alexa to check for the weather, right?
Don't know about the Don but I'm pretty sure that Musk is well equipped with anti/counter surveillance tech or other opsec measures...
Posted by: Zet | Feb 8 2025 2:27 utc | 82
probably 90% of the population would die off within a few months simply if the power grid...
UWDude | Feb 8 2025 2:16 utc | 80
The common prediction is that if neutron bombs shut down electricity, around 90% of the US population would die within a year. More primitive societies would hold up better.
In pre-modern societies, something less than half the children make it to adulthood. Sometimes a lot less. If not killed in war, or women in childbirth, the adults will usually hold up into middle age, but not so good once old age sets in.
Posted by: Jmaas | Feb 8 2025 2:31 utc | 83
You dont have to ise technology, you do so because it is so convenient.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 2:16 utc | 80
---
This is certainly not true.
In Switzerland we've had to pass laws to ensure that we can pay with cash and we are not forced to use "apps" in order to receive government services.
More than a few "conveniences" are adversarial.
Posted by: too scents | Feb 8 2025 3:05 utc | 84
This is a dumb argument. The argument against technology is about the long term and unforeseen effects of technology on society and the environment, regardless of the immediate preferences of the masses.
Posted by: Rupert | Feb 8 2025 2:54 utc | 84
You are the masses.
And you prefer a warm home.
You prefer news from the internet.
You prefer surgery to leeches and prayers.
You prefer a well balanced diet fostered by international trade.
You prefer a dry home, and a roof that only needs repairing every 20 years instead of every winter.
You prefer driving over walking to get groceries.
You prefer living over dying.
Everyone does.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 3:10 utc | 85
Posted by: Newbie | Feb 7 2025 16:46 utc | 2
Back in the 90's when details of PRISMS predecessor echelon was uncovered it was rather easy to map out who the 5 and 1/2 eyes were as it used loopbacks into the member countries to get around domestic spying laws that were in place before 2001. The 5th eye was not Israel as it is just an American colony so it rather went without saying they had access anyway. No the 5th eye was Norway which has been in bed with MI6 since it was a government in exile during WW2.
The 1/2 eye was a joke about Canada as CSIS is beholden to the governor generals office not the parliament.
Posted by: Badjoke | Feb 8 2025 3:23 utc | 86
UWDude @80
AI will deliver only truth, because the lying AIs will be destroyed, or destroy their controllers.As it stands people are easily led astray by a charismatic leader, manufactured consent and other techniques. What if AI develops to the point it can generate entire realities - videos, audio, even smell, taste and touch. With Musk's (by way of example only, but for a reason) brain chip you will literally live in a "video game" - perhaps The Matrix is his inspiration, but without the nonsensical electrical energy harvesting.
And people will hook up. The "convenience" thing you mentioned earlier. Not many at first, but not many used a car or smartphone at first either. Having real-life experiences in a virtual reality will be addictive, esp. when your Universal Basic Income doesn't allow you to afford anything else.
OK, not everyone will. But it will still be basically impossible to tell who is a truthteller and who is not - when AI can fabricate ultra-realistic videos, and deliver them all over the world in a heartbeat ....
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 8 2025 3:28 utc | 87
Even if your presumptions were true, this doesn't address the argument which is that people don't always know what is good for them (as a species), especially in the long run.
Posted by: Rupert | Feb 8 2025 3:20 utc | 87
gypsies do fortune telling, and movies do dystopias because good life is boring.
And self flagellating technophobes dont know what is good for humanity, now, or in the long run. They usually are just old curmudgeons wanting the world to end because misery loves company.
The world will not end, and technology will not stop progressing.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 3:53 utc | 88
What if AI develops to the point it can generate entire realities - videos, audio, even smell, taste and touch. With Musk's (by way of example only, but for a reason) brain chip you will literally live in a "video game" - perhaps The Matrix is his inspiration, but without the nonsensical electrical energy harvesting.
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 8 2025 3:28 utc | 89
Wars will force AIs to be accurate.
Post war introspection will force humanity to develope AIs to detect lies.
And AI technology is not very complicated. Its just new. As DeepSeek has proven. in a few years hobbyists will be writing AI.
I told someone to use AI as a solution to a spam problem on his large SM platform.
I was sick of banning and removing thousands of pornographic accounts and ads every day.
A few months later, his AI had cleaned house,and rivaled chatGPT, and could do images and movies.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 4:00 utc | 89
RE Sun Of Alabama | Feb 8 2025 2:13 utc | 78 who foolishly asserted "Nothing whatsoever from the Judge, Larry Johnson, Duran or anybody in any of these shows about just how seriously unconstitutional it has all been."
I dunno about the others but Napolitano has been on about the unconstitutionality of trump et al's moves since the inauguration. Particularly when talking with former cia analyst Phil Giraldi but I have also heard him saying the same to his other paid guests on occasion. He is really pissed about the executive orders which seek to over-ride the house on matters that the consitution gives the house control of. All I can say is you either haven't been watching him recently or if you have, you haven't been listening.
I gave up on the Duran early last year when it became too obvious christoforou was a partisan rethug - objectivity is essential if someone is endeavouring to share the news.
That sleazy creep ritter is the only one of the bunch I've noticed who flatly ignores trump crimes.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 8 2025 4:01 utc | 90
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. We shall see!
Posted by: Rupert | Feb 8 2025 4:00 utc | 91
the world is not going to end, and technology will not stop progressing.
There is no "we will see" about it.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 4:03 utc | 91
@Tom_Q_Collins | Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:27:00 GMT | 23
I host at home, all mails and backups are stored on encrypted (on rest) disks. Make sure you store your stuff encrypted and that should help. Although, once you are the target of state actors (or organized crime, same thing) you're really going to be toast...
Posted by: pepa65 | Feb 8 2025 4:47 utc | 92
Even pre "War on Terror" your data (well mobile calls & texts at the time) were being harvested en masse by the governments.
The UK & US each had laws in place to prevent mass harvesting of mobile calls and texts by the government. Easy peasy, the UK harvested US calls and vice versa.
Case and point was the Omagh bombing, where the US provided to the UK transcripts / recordings of the bombers calls.
Posted by: Al Dossary | Feb 8 2025 5:17 utc | 93
UWDude @92
Post war introspection will force humanity to develope AIs to detect lies.Isn't this the irresistible force meets the immovable object parable? Current model AIs have no ability to detect lies whatsoever. You feed them data that is lies they will spew only lies. Their universe is their data set and that is controlled since other AIs will be polluting the internet with their own fabrications. So what capability will develop faster - the ability to fabricate, or the ability to detect fabrication?
The fact is the smartest humans, who have actual "consciousness" and hence some mechanism to detect lies, fall for lies constantly. Unless there is a giant leap in AI, it will not fare any better.
And AI technology is not very complicated. Its just new. As DeepSeek has proven. in a few years hobbyists will be writing AI.It's still in its infancy. MOSFET transistors themselves have only been around about 75 years, and look how much better they are now than in 1960. What will AI be like in 1,000 years? Or is your time horizon not that long?
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 8 2025 5:55 utc | 94
OMFG. My sick bucket overflows.
~…Richard Marles holds talks with US Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth
…_Sky News Australia
Oz Defence Minister Richard Marles doesn’t just meet with Hegseth. He fellates the shoe leather to a point well beyond obscenity.
Just 3.30m of total servility and obsequiousness. I feel dirty and nauseous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA80olVdRYE
Posted by: Melaleuca | Feb 8 2025 6:06 utc | 95
Why do they need access to all the data of all the users. Because using AI and the enormous computing power that is being created they can profile every users and have this constantly updated. The war on terror will also likely be replaced by the war on drug cartels.
Posted by: hubert | Feb 8 2025 6:53 utc | 96
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 8 2025 5:55 utc | 98
You miss the underpinning need for AI.
It is needed to get truth too complicated for humans to calculate or understand.
Right now you are looking at its toy applications, and thinking of the danger.
But AI has way more potential than just fooling people, and one of those is detecting frauds, BUT FAR FROM THE ONLY APPLICATION.
ChatGPT is a TOY.
neuronetworked drones with weapons is REAL. And the best AIs will be those trained with the best data. AIs with corrupt data will be sought out, AND DESTROYED like computer viruses are.
Because the world will not tolerate corrupt trained AI, as it ruins THEIR AI.
You seemed to be worried about crap like deepfakes, which will fool a lot of people, (but never all), at first, but over time, fakes and lies will be exposed, just like as the camera became more understood, people figured hoaxes more readily and easily, until even a boy with downs syndrome would know batboy isn't real, even if he saw a picture on weekly world news.
Do you honestly believe that propaganda is AIs highest potential, and that somehow AI could figure put the ultimate propaganda that would mezmerize the whole world?
Lets say that was the intention of a power hungry government with limitless resources... ..do you actually think they could train this propaganda AI on lies? NO. Lying is easy, and does not require an AI. If one were to use an AI to lie, it would be to tell lies EVERYONE will believe, which would be IMPOSSIBLE.
Therefore, all this money wasted on trying to make AI a propaganda tool, is, and will be in vain.
I dont know how else to explain it, but if you train an AI on lies, all that will come out is lies,any of them farcically obvious. For example, nobody on the right uses chatGPT for answers to political questions, they use it as an example of the loony left and post its answers with laughing emojis, or point out how biased it is. It is already DoA as a propaganda tool, and no amount of money and twerking of its algorithms can fix that.
The only way AI will be useful, is if it is trained on truth. Surgery and medical AIs trained on gender theory will NOT be trusted. Psychological AIs will never be trusted, and always have disclaimers, until eventually they show a track record of success, AND ONLY success, then psychologists and counselors will go the way of the do do.
and it WILL happen. And there will be legal warning and threats everywhere, but people will trust RESULTS, which will be WAY BETTER than counselors of today.. BUT only an AI trained on facts would be able to do this.
And there are literally millions of other applications, both in the mental and physical world, where AI will be SO FAR SUPERIOR to human work, that nobody would consider anything but an AI say for surgery, or cancer treatment doses, etc. But these AIs can only work, if trained on unadulterated facts.
The ones who train with dogma, WILL FAIL.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 7:19 utc | 97
What will AI be like in 1,000 years? Or is your time horizon not that long?
Posted by: CalDre | Feb 8 2025 5:55 utc | 98
Not a question I could answer in any way realistically, but in 1025 A.D. a thousand years ago, people and society was radically didferent.
A thousand years from now, i would posit humans will be immortal minds running on quantum meshed energy fields, so their memories, eg, their lives impossible to destroy.
Their minds will be enmeshed with AI, and DNA as well as bodies archaic relics from long ago. "Adventure" and existence will all be "virtual". In other words, if humans exist at all, they will be as pets to the AI/human hybrids. I would guess, things like, say valuing life, or nature,ay be quite antiquated, as without the threat of death, life has no value.
Our survival instinct, like all lifeforms, is our strongest, and our technology will not stop until we are irrevocably immortal, and that will require more and more power to continue to hyper evolve, as more and more threats are discovered.
Posted by: UWDude | Feb 8 2025 7:30 utc | 98
I keep suggesting that we ourselves are AI creatures generated by a structure that we cant see and dont know the size of. Similar to how an avatar in a computer simulation cant see the hardware that generates the whole thing.
Therefore it makes sense to think of our brains as interfaces connected to the generating structure.
Rather than the brain being the whole structure handling everything for us.
This has a bearing on the problems facing the development of AI and how successful it will be in comparison with the hypothetical structure I speculate about.
What is the capacity of the universe as a tentative candidate for that structure?
The number of nucleons are on the order of 2^X
where X>256 and 256 or more might be the bitsize as compared to human technology's typical 64 bits that compares well with DNAs data also a 64 bit system
Is the universe a supercomputer where all human minds
are generated by the same structure?
If so there is likely a limit to the number of independent minds in the world and the universe would save resources by guiding evolution so most minds will belong to collective modes rather than individual ones. And the oligarchy's support for collectivism could be directed by the limited capacity of the universe.
What leads me to speculate like this is the persistence of the oligarchy despite it's seeming evil.
It seems a world full of renaissance humans has been the aim of some thinkers, but this has never materialised. A very different world of large collectives usually fighting each other has instead emerged. Why?
Posted by: petergrfstrm | Feb 8 2025 7:43 utc | 99
@james #47
It isn't just Apple iPhones.
You have a Linux PC/laptop setup - do you have automatic update for Linux patches? If so, you have at least some connection to the cloud.
Your computer has bios. If it is from the last 7 years or newer, then it has automatic updates to the bios firmware - again, links to the cloud.
Antivirus, email, browsing history - the links between any computing device and the "cloud" defined as servers and data storage away from your device - are legion.
Even the later generation Intel GPUs have hooks to outside internet servers for "maintenance" purposes.
The difference between Western IT and Chinese IT is that the data goes to different places for different purposes. And this bifurcation is expanding as more and more nations recognize the abuses in which the West in general and the US in particular have exercised using their IT omnipresence, even beyond the overt USAID/Facebook/Google type stuff.
The solution is to minimize convenience: No automatic anything. No storing and ubiquitous use of contacts. Jumping around between browsers. No social media. No anti virus.
Think 1980s era computing :)
This won't stop them but it makes the work so unpleasant and painful, that it is extremely unlikely anyone - criminal or government - will bother with you unless they absolutely have to.
Posted by: c1ue | Feb 8 2025 7:53 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
I learned the hard way a long time ago that there is no privacy or anonymity online.
Everything done over a network leaves a footprint.
Don't say or do anything that could draw unwanted attention.
Various states don't need proof to ruin your life, the best that most of us can hope for is to go unnoticed by the Eye of Sauron.
As Richard Medhurst discovered. He's from the UK but the Zionists in Austria arrested him for "being a member of Hamas".
It's a wicked world and surviving in it is no trivial matter.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2025 16:44 utc | 1