Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 24, 2025
How The Chinese Beat Trump And OpenAI

The hype around Artificial Intelligence, the now failed U.S. attempt to monopolize it, and the recent counter from China are a lesson in how to innovate. They also show that the U.S. is losing the capability to do so.

In mid 2023, when the Artificial Intelligence hype gained headlines, I wrote:

'Artificial Intelligence' Is (Mostly) Glorified Pattern Recognition

Currently there is some hype about a family of large language models like ChatGPT. The program reads natural language input and processes it into some related natural language content output. That is not new. The first Artificial Linguistic Internet Computer Entity (Alice) was developed by Joseph Weizenbaum at MIT in the early 1960s. I had funny chats with ELIZA in the 1980s on a mainframe terminal. ChatGPT is a bit niftier and its iterative results, i.e. the 'conversations' it creates, may well astonish some people. But the hype around it is unwarranted.

Currently the factual correctness of the output of the best large language models is an estimated 80%. They process symbols and pattern but have no understanding of what those symbols or pattern represent. They can not solve mathematical and logical problems, not even very basic ones.

There are niche applications, like translating written languages, where AI or pattern recognition has amazing results. But one still can not trust them to get every word right. The models can be assistants but one will always have to double check their results.

Overall the correctness of current AI models is still way too low to allow them to decide any real world situation. More data or more computing power will not change that. If one wants to overcome their limitations one will need to find some fundamentally new ideas.

But the hype continued. One big AI model, ChatGPT, was provided by a non-profit organization, OpenAI. But its CEO, Sam Altman, soon smelled the big amount of dollars he potentially could make. A year after defending the the non-profit structure of OpenAI Altman effectively raided the board and took the organization private:

ChatGPT-maker OpenAI is working on a plan to restructure its core business into a for-profit benefit corporation that will no longer be controlled by its non-profit board, people familiar with the matter told Reuters, in a move that will make the company more attractive to investors.

Chief executive Sam Altman will also receive equity for the first time in the for-profit company, which could be worth $150 billion after the restructuring as it also tries to remove the cap on returns for investors, sources added.

The ChatGTP large language model OpenAI provided was closed source. A black-box, running in the cloud, that one could pay to chat with or use for translating, content generation or analyzing certain problems.

The training and maintaining of ChatGTP took large amounts of computing power and money. It was somewhat expensive but there was no new technology in it. The algorithms it used were well known and the training data needed to 'program' it were freely available internet content.

For all the hype about AI is is not a secret or even new technology. The barriers to entry for any competition is low.

That is the reason why Yves at Naked Capitalism, pointing to Edward Zitron, asked: “How Does OpenAI Survive?” It doesn't. Or has little chance to do so. Discussions in the U.S. never acknowledged those facts.

Politicians thought of AI as the next big thing that would further U.S. control of the world. They attempted to prevent any potential competition to the lead the U.S. thought it had in that field. Nvidea, the last leading U.S. chip maker, lost billion when it was prohibited from selling in latest AI-specialized models to China.

Two days ago Trump announced Stargate, a $500 billion AI infrastructure investment in the US:

Three top tech firms on Tuesday announced that they will create a new company, called Stargate, to grow artificial intelligence infrastructure in the United States.

OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, SoftBank CEO Masayoshi Son and Oracle Chairman Larry Ellison appeared at the White House Tuesday afternoon alongside President Donald Trump to announce the company, which Trump called the “largest AI infrastructure project in history.”

The companies will invest $100 billion in the project to start, with plans to pour up to $500 billion into Stargate in the coming years. The project is expected to create 100,000 US jobs, Trump said.

Stargate will build “the physical and virtual infrastructure to power the next generation of AI,” including data centers around the country, Trump said. Ellison said the group’s first, 1 million-square foot data project is already under construction in Texas.

On the very same day, but with much less noise, a Chinese company published another AI model:

We introduce our first-generation reasoning models, DeepSeek-R1-Zero and DeepSeek-R1. DeepSeek-R1-Zero, a model trained via large-scale reinforcement learning (RL) without supervised fine-tuning (SFT) as a preliminary step, demonstrated remarkable performance on reasoning. With RL, DeepSeek-R1-Zero naturally emerged with numerous powerful and interesting reasoning behaviors.

The new DeepSeek models have better benchmarks than any other available model. They use a different combination of technics, less training data and much less computing power to achieve that. They are cheap to use and, in contrast to OpenAI, real open source.

Writes Forbes:

U.S. export controls on advanced semiconductors were intended to slow China's AI progress, but they may have inadvertently spurred innovation. Unable to rely solely on the latest hardware, companies like Hangzhou-based DeepSeek have been forced to find creative solutions to do more with less.

This month, DeepSeek released its R1 model, using advanced techniques such as pure reinforcement learning to create a model that's not only among the most formidable in the world, but is fully open source, making it available for anyone in the world to examine, modify, and build upon.

DeepSeek-R1’s performance is comparable to OpenAI's top reasoning models across a range of tasks, including mathematics, coding, and complex reasoning. For example, on the AIME 2024 mathematics benchmark, DeepSeek-R1 scored 79.8% compared to OpenAI-o1’s 79.2%. On the MATH-500 benchmark, DeepSeek-R1 achieved 97.3% versus o1’s 96.4%. In coding tasks, DeepSeek-R1 reached the 96.3rd percentile on Codeforces, while o1 reached the 96.6th percentile – although it’s important to note that benchmark results can be imperfect and should not be overinterpreted.

But what’s most remarkable is that DeepSeek was able to achieve this largely through innovation rather than relying on the latest computer chips.

Nature is likewise impressed:

A Chinese-built large language model called DeepSeek-R1 is thrilling scientists as an affordable and open rival to ‘reasoning’ models such as OpenAI’s o1.

“This is wild and totally unexpected,” Elvis Saravia, an AI researcher and co-founder of the UK-based AI consulting firm DAIR.AI, wrote on X.

R1 stands out for another reason. DeepSeek, the start-up in Hangzhou that built the model, has released it as ‘open-weight’, meaning that researchers can study and build on the algorithm. Published under an MIT licence, the model can be freely reused but is not considered fully open source, because its training data has not been made available.

“The openness of DeepSeek is quite remarkable,” says Mario Krenn, leader of the Artificial Scientist Lab at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Light in Erlangen, Germany. By comparison, o1 and other models built by OpenAI in San Francisco, California, including its latest effort o3 are “essentially black boxes”, he says.

Even long term Internet investors, who have seen it all, are impressed:

Marc Andreessen 🇺🇸 @pmarca – 9:19 UTC · Jan 24, 2025

Deepseek R1 is one of the most amazing and impressive breakthroughs I’ve ever seen — and as open source, a profound gift to the world. 🤖🫡

Nature adds:

DeepSeek hasn’t released the full cost of training R1, but it is charging people using its interface around one-thirtieth of what o1 costs to run. The firm has also created mini ‘distilled’ versions of R1 to allow researchers with limited computing power to play with the model.

That does in fact work!

Brian Roemmele @BrianRoemmele – 14:34 UTC · Jan 23, 2025

Folks, I think we have done it!
If overnight tests are confirmed we have OPEN SOURCE DeepSeek R1 running at 200 tokens per second on a NON-INTERNET connected Raspberry Pi.
A full frontier AI better than “OpenAI” owned fully by you in your pocket free to use!
I will make the Pi image available as soon as all tests are complete.
You just pop it into a Raspberry Pi and you have AI!
This is just the start of the power that takes place when you TRULY Open Source an AI Model.

The latest Rasberry Pi hardware starts at $50. The software is free.

This is a death call for OpenAI:

Arnaud Bertrand @RnaudBertrand – 14:23 UTC · Jan 21, 2025

Most people probably don't realize how bad news China's Deepseek is for OpenAI.

They've come up with a model that matches and even exceeds OpenAI's latest model o1 on various benchmarks, and they're charging just 3% of the price.

It's essentially as if someone had released a mobile on par with the iPhone but was selling it for $30 instead of $1000. It's this dramatic.

What's more, they're releasing it open-source so you even have the option – which OpenAI doesn't offer – of not using their API at all and running the model for "free" yourself. …

The backstory of DeepSeek is also amazing.

In 2007 three Chinese engineers set out to build a quant (financial speculation) fund using AI. They hired hungry people fresh from the universities. Their High-Flyer fund was somewhat successful but throughout the last years the Chinese government started to crack down on financial engineering, quant trading and speculation.

With time on their hand and unused computing power in their back room the engineers started to build the DeepSeek models. The costs were minimal. While OpenAI, Meta and Google spent billions to build their AI's the training costs for the published DeepSeek models were mere $5 to 6 million.

Henry Shi @henrythe9ths – 23:20 PM · Jan 20, 2025

7. The lesson?

Sometimes having less means innovating more. DeepSeek proves you don't need:
– Billions in funding
– Hundreds of PhDs
– A famous pedigree
Just brilliant young minds, the courage to think differently and the grit to never give up

Another lesson is that brilliant young minds should not be wasted to optimize financial speculation but to make stuff one can use.

DeepSeek demonstrates how it is impossible to use trade and technology barriers to keep technology away from competitors. They can, with decent resources, simply innovate around those.

Even billions of dollars, loud marketeers like Trump and self promoting grifters like Sam Altman can not successfully compete with a deep bench of well trained engineers.

As an author at Guancha remarks (machine translation):

In the Sino-US science and technology war, China's unique advantage comes precisely from the US ban. It can be said that our strong will to survive was forced out by Washington, and maximizing our limited resources is the secret to breaking through. In history, this kind of story is not new, that is, the weak prevail over the strong, and the small fight against the big.

The U.S. side will fall into a Vietnam-style dilemma-relying too much on its own absolute advantage, thus wasting a lot of resources and losing itself to internal consumption.

How long for the U.S. to (re-)learn that lesson?

Comments

Zionists like Nazi’s need to be rooted out – it would appear they infest just about every field.
“Donald Trump’s nominee for United Nations Ambassador Elise Stefanik says she agrees with the view that “Israel has a biblical right to the entire West Bank.””
https://nitter.poast.org/prem_thakker/status/1881768141317190108#m
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Elise_Stefanik

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 16:45 utc | 201

These three US security firms – (Blackwater types) – one a shell company, have been given the contract to set to form a “multinational security consortium” – which will oversee the inspection of Palestinians in the Israeli-controlled Netzarim corridor, in Gaza, following the ceasefire, and possibly oversee the return of some Palestinians to Northern Gaza.
https://thegrayzone.com/2025/01/24/gaza-checkpoint-contractor-wealth-management-firm/

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 16:46 utc | 202

Speaking of the Chinese, could some of you knowledgeable, astute people comment on this? It’s regarding Trump’s recent Davos address with his plans for supremacy. Mr. Foo makes a lot of sense:
https://youtu.be/TxAH6sInkgU

Posted by: hispanidad | Jan 25 2025 16:52 utc | 203

IP is rent seeking.
Ideas (knowledge) are infinitely reproducible. As I stated, it is a revolt against nature to tax learning done through knowledge or communication.
Every Empire is built on lies but the Western Empire is based on lies which fragilize the whole of humanity for the profit of a select few Lizard people.
When the SMO started and sanctions kicked in, someone in the Duma mentioned rejecting Western IP law to fight back. If the Russians had done so, it would have mortally wounded the beast. Putin, while a brilliant leader, is not a bold thinker.
Doesn’t matter. IP has been eroded so much in my lifetime, I expect it to collapse before I die. It will be an anachronism.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 25 2025 16:54 utc | 204

Trump, cracking down on anyone who criticises the Zionists.
“President Trump just executed an executive order allowing the deportation of those non-citizens, including foreign students, who have been supporting U.S. designated terrorist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah on American soil.
The World Betar Movement has initiated a campaign to identify these foreign students in the United States who have participated in anti-Israel activities on college campuses. The group is preparing a list of names to provide to the incoming Trump administration, aiming to facilitate the deportation of these individuals.
Ross Glick, director of the U.S. chapter of Betar, stated, “We have started lists of Jew-hating foreign nationals on visas who support Hamas.” The organization is utilizing facial recognition software and advanced database technology to compile the list, which currently includes approximately 30 students from countries such as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Canada, and the United Kingdom. These students are enrolled in prestigious institutions, including Columbia University, the University of Pennsylvania, the University of Michigan, Syracuse University, UCLA, The New School for Social Research, Carnegie Mellon University, and George Washington University.
This initiative aligns with President-elect Donald Trump’s campaign promise to revoke the student visas of individuals engaging in antisemitic activities. In October 2023, Trump stated, “Come 2025, we will find you and we will deport you.””
https://nitter.poast.org/TrackAIPAC/status/1882590448252010790#m

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 16:55 utc | 205

I miswrote.
Learning is done through observation and communication.
Those are the vectors we use to disseminate knowledge.
Taxing those vectors for the benefit of a select few is stupid and unsustainable given the drive to learn and grow inherent in everyone.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 25 2025 16:57 utc | 206

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 16:55 utc | 219
##########$
I was told that Trump and Elon support free speech.
Zionists cannot tolerate free speech. Another Western contradiction.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 25 2025 17:00 utc | 207

I doubt Washington, cares much about the fate of, American, pro-Palestinian doctors and nurses.
“Israel denying 11 American physicians & nurses from leaving Gaza. They’re from Texas, Florida, Colorado, Ohio, Arizona.
Some have surgeries for Americans back in the US they may miss.
Source says Israel gave no reason for denial—nor for doctors supposed to *enter* yesterday.”
“Dr. Nimr Ikram (TX)
Dr. Omair Ilyas (CA)
Dr. Aslam Akhtar (CA)
Dr. Tarik Elmohd (FL)
Dr. Mohamed Kuziez (CO)
Dr. Sameer Ahmad (CA)
Dr. Omar Malas (OH)
Dr. Asad Khan (TX)
Dr. Shehzad Batliwala (TX)
Nurses: Nor Rizek (AZ) & Marie Zhang (OH)”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 17:08 utc | 208

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 17:08 utc | 222
########
You seem committed to posting off topic today.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 25 2025 17:10 utc | 209

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jan 25 2025 16:44 utc | 211
What would humans find interesting in robotic music or dance?
Hmmm, intriguing question. Waiting for AI to meet the synclavier.
Amnerica, one of Frank Zappa’s later compositions, composed on this machine, is really quite beautiful.
But yeah, Frank was human.

Posted by: john | Jan 25 2025 17:21 utc | 210

AI can use your web-based content without attribution or permission
How AI extracts content from your website without your permission.
Primer on the various basic functional types of AI
Link 1. Fairly comprehensive
Link 2 Comic book, but decent
Open source ecosystem of AI tools and applications
A curated list of of U.S.-based open source AI tools
A broader, not-curated list of open source AI tools from several nations, listed on github. Github is a U.S.-hosted download repository for open-source software. Github also functions as a collaboration and team-development tool for building software.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Jan 25 2025 17:24 utc | 211

@Posted by: Milites | Jan 25 2025 11:50 utc | 178
Forbes is owned by a Hong Kong based investment group, which is of course part of China. Springer Nature is owned by the German Holtzbrinck Publishing Group (established by a Nazi who joined the Nazi Party in 1933 and did very well under fascism) which is privately owned by three German siblings, and a London-based investment fund BC Partners. It is not under the influence of the Chinese state.
Holtzbrinck joined the Nazi Youth in 1931 and the Nazi Party in 1933 and ran several successful publishing groups during the Nazi period. He also hired a lot of ex-Nazis into his business post-war. The story of many parts of the German oligarchy. Why are w not worried about the German takeover of US publishing? Bertelsmann is owned by the German Mohn family trust, which greatly benefitted from the Nazi rule.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 212

Various commenters have speculated on AI’s ability to compose, arrange, or perform music.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jan 25 2025 16:44 utc | 211

I like the way generative AI can be used to to digitize scanned sheet music into MIDI scores.
Its one of the neatest applications for generative AI.
https://omr-research.github.io/

Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 17:52 utc | 213

Github also functions as a
Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Jan 25 2025 17:24 utc | 223

Github is a Microsoft owned intelligence gathering and surveillance tool.

Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:01 utc | 214

Holtzbrinck joined the Nazi Youth in 1931 and the Nazi Party in 1933 and ran several successful publishing groups during the Nazi period.
Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 224

These times they are full on Zionists.
https://www.axelspringer.com/en/inside/we-stand-with-israel

Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:06 utc | 215

Aaaand, what do you know? the issue with the most comments on the Github page (41 comments and counting) for the DeepSeek R1 repository is about “Weird Censorship” problems, like the AI “saying CCP-aligned things when asked about the Uyghurs”.
All LLMs open to the general public are censoring certain types of discourse, but hey, can’t we at least discuss Tian An Men Square and the Uyghur genocide? That’s all we need DeepSeek to do!
I can already see the next headlines in NATO papers: “The New Chinese AI Is Impressive, But At What Cost To History?”

Posted by: Lemming | Jan 25 2025 18:10 utc | 216

“Open source” encouraged laborers around the world to contribute for little or no pay. What kind of empire benefits more: one that is STEM-light or STEM-heavy? Plutocrats or communists?

Posted by: I forgot | Jan 25 2025 18:12 utc | 217

“Open source” encouraged laborers around the world to contribute for little or no pay.
Posted by: I forgot | Jan 25 2025 18:12 utc | 229

Always remember that “laborers” are the source of surplus value which is stolen from them.

Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:20 utc | 218

@ Posted by: LuHsun | Jan 25 2025 4:55 utc | 161
Great example of the kind of pablum that LLMs generate. Where it isn’t meaningless commentary and verbiage, it’s factually incorrect:

Another weakness is the article’s reliance on speculative assertions. For example, it suggests that China’s AI capabilities have already outstripped those of the U.S., without providing concrete evidence or comparative metrics to support this claim.

Evidence of these was indeed provided with comparative benchmarks against OpenAI’s latest public models. Perhaps the LLM didn’t see the links because of the way the data was copied over. Another commenter said “garbage in, garbage out”, and there you have it.
Emily Bender and her team were correct in their assertion that these things are “stochastic parrots”. They have no innate reasoning skills, what they do is next token prediction, probabilistic retrieval of training corpora based on input into their context window. They are good at some tasks, like summarization, as long as you don’t mind the occasional “hallucination”. But they are massively overhyped because of their method of presentation as fact-knowers or truth-machines or minds-in-silica. This presentation of LLMs by the digital technology industry is highly misleading as to both the capabilities of these computer programs as well as to future developments of them.
For the more astute bar flies, you can find an excellent, recent, study demonstrating the limitations of large language models on reasoning problems which aren’t in their training corpora here: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.02825
The way the lack of reasoning skills has been dealt with in practice has been to fine-tune LLMs with many thousands if not millions of examples on reasoning problems, usually ones associated with popular benchmarks. This still does not result in deterministic output, where the correct answer is arrived at every single time, even when thousands of dollars of computing power are thrown at the algorithms, running the programs until an external verifier signals it’s achieved the right answer. It also brings us right back to the “frame” problem that plagued GOFAI.
Cheaper LLMs change the game for companies that want to implement their own chatbots on their own hardware. But the productivity boosts from these things are often less than marginal, for example, on engineering teams, the amount of time spent finagling with the computer program that lies to you is time that could have been better spent reading the documentation which the computer program is trained on and probabilistically (and thus imperfectly) regenerates.
The glee over IP theft in this thread is also a holdover of 90s and aughts leftism. Sure, “copying is not theft”, people should be allowed to scrape and torrent for non-commercial purposes. But it is very different to scrape and then present a commercial product for sale that regenerates the copyrighted training corpora. That is, quite simply, intellectual property theft. Getting rid of IP law so that digital technology oligarchs can freely scrape and regenerate copyrighted material is quite frankly economic suicide, and it is not even how the PRC achieved their results with DeepSeek.

Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 18:23 utc | 219

Getting rid of IP law so that digital technology oligarchs can freely scrape and regenerate copyrighted material is quite frankly economic suicide, and
Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 18:23 utc | 231

The irony! It burns!

Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:29 utc | 220

Hegseth is pro- Israeli.
“The Senate confirmed former Fox News host Pete Hegseth as the nation’s next secretary of defense on Friday after weeks of debate about his slim qualifications and his alleged history of alcohol abuse and domestic abuse.
The vote was 50-50, with GOP Sens. Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and a surprise Mitch McConnell of Kentucky standing in opposition. The three Republican no votes forced Vice President JD Vance to cast a tie-breaking decision in Hegseth’s favor.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/pete-hegseth-donald-trump-confirmed_n_6793a399e4b0e5e46c43997e
“The members are very connected to intelligence services, including former leaders of Mossad and MI6. UANI is in all likelihood a straight-out Israeli-led effort.”
Hegseth is a member.
https://www.wikispooks.com/wiki/United_Against_Nuclear_Iran
LoveDonbas (221).
Yeah – I don’t why that is -maybe its because the Palestinian thread is quite a bit down the main page – and I thought B might see my comments, and open a new one – then again maybe not.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 18:30 utc | 221

@ Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:29 utc | 232
What’s ironic to me is that the companies, like openai, who are advocating for changes to IP law to allow them to probabilistically retrieve copyrighted materials are themselves hiding their models and training corpora behind IP law. These aren’t pirates, they’re privateers.

Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 18:37 utc | 222

The Aviation Geek Club
5h ·
Russia would stand a snowflake’s chance within a blast furnace Vs just European NATO nations if US lost interest in protecting Europe. US Navy Operations Specialist explains why.
Who, or what, is the Aviation Geek Club and what does everyone think of this “analysis?”

Posted by: Darrell Freeman | Jan 25 2025 18:42 utc | 223

Why the consecutive English governments – MUST – keep pushing the war in Ukraine.
“Yes Britain is, it has loaned Ukraine enormous sums and effectively bought tons of Kiev’s debt. In 2013, London signed a number of potentially highly lucrative oil and gas deals for rights in Donbass, they have a lot at stake here.”
https://nitter.poast.org/KitKlarenberg/status/1882869398610096596#m

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 18:47 utc | 224

advocating for changes to IP law to allow them to probabilistically retrieve copyrighted materials
Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 18:37 utc | 234

As if that will make generative AI rentable. Its laughable on the face of it.
Generative AI will drive the marginal cost of reproduction for accessing pre-existing knowledge to zero.
IP law has become broken enclosure.

Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:47 utc | 225

And finally.
“The funniest part of this – or most tragic, depends on how you look at it – is that Denmark is probably the most committed U.S. vassal state in the entire EU.
Look:
– they’re a founding member of NATO
– they’ve participated in nearly every major U.S.-led military operation whenever the U.S. asked, even the most controversial ones like Iraq
– Denmark was revealed to be the base for the NSA’s spying on European leaders (reuters.com/world/europe/us-…)
– Denmark always buys American military equipment over European alternatives
– They’ve agreed to hosting a U.S. military base – in Greenland! (Thule Air Base) – which has been crucial for U.S. strategic interests since the Cold War
And yet here you have Trump apparently seriously considering annexing 98% of their territory (yup, Greenland is big, and the rest of Denmark very small)!
I mean, talk about cuckoldry…
The irony gets even richer – and sadder – when you look at Denmark’s response as per the FT’s article (ft.com/content/ace02a6f-3307…). Instead of showing any backbone, Mette Frederiksen, the Danish premier, offered “more co-operation on military bases and mineral exploitation.” This perfectly encapsulates the European leadership’s approach to U.S. relations: no matter how egregious the provocation, the response is more servility and more meekness.
Yet the KEY lesson here is that servility obviously gets you nowhere. Europe needs to wake up, fast. Its weakness means that it’s now very much not at the table anymore, it’s on the menu. And this should serve as an immense wake-up call for other U.S. “allies” too: submission only breeds contempt and disregard for your interests, you can be crushed on the altar of your master’s craziest whims.
I know I’m a broken record on this topic but Europe is about to step into its century of humiliation if it keeps behaving like this.
And the worst part is that no-one is going to care because of Europe’s double-standards and hypocrisy in its own dealings with the rest of the world, Gaza being the latest example of this. By choosing to openly abandon even the appearance of principles Europe has essentially announced it was ok with “might makes right”. A monumentally stupid thing to do when you aren’t mighty yourself…
Europe’s leaders (if you can call them so), in their eagerness to be “good allies” by supporting the violation of international law in Gaza, have forgotten that principles aren’t just moral luxuries – they’re shields, and once broken for others, they no longer protect you either.
Their forgetting this is especially egregious given Europe’s own history. Because we’ve we’ve seen this many times before and perhaps the most salient example is the response – or absence thereof – to Mussolini’s Italy invading Ethiopia in 1935, which resulted in hundreds of thousands of Ethiopian deaths.
Despite Ethiopia being a member of the League of Nations, the UN-ancestor meant to prevent exactly such aggression, major powers chose to protect their fellow European power rather than uphold international law. With the consequences we all know about: the death of the League of Nations as a credible institution and the clear message to other European powers that hunting season on weaker nations and peoples was officially open. Within a few months afterwards, Hitler started remilitarizing the Rhineland.
The century of humiliation that Europe is walking into has a uniquely self-inflicted quality to it, stemming from its own moral corruption and strategic myopia. Unlike China, which at least could claim to have been blindsided by European imperialism, Europe is actively participating in dismantling the very protections that could shield it from stronger powers. Which means it won’t even have the moral authority to protest.”
https://nitter.poast.org/RnaudBertrand/status/1883053445248373104#m

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 18:56 utc | 226

Russia would stand a snowflake’s chance within a blast furnace Vs just European NATO nations if US lost interest in protecting Europe. US Navy Operations Specialist explains why.
Who, or what, is the Aviation Geek Club and what does everyone think of this “analysis?”
Posted by: Darrell Freeman | Jan 25 2025 18:42 utc | 235

That’s paid content, Mr. Freeman. Mail some cash to Bernhard, and we’ll see what we can do.

Posted by: persiflo | Jan 25 2025 18:56 utc | 227

@ Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 18:47 utc | 237

Generative AI will drive the marginal cost of reproduction for accessing pre-existing knowledge to zero.

Well, if you’re okay with access to knowledge that is guaranteed to occasionally return falsehoods, and if you abstract away from the cost of collecting and keeping up to date with the sum total of human knowledge, sure. Sci-hub did far more to promote access to scientific knowledge by making scientific papers accessible to everyone with an internet connection for free. That’s piracy and that’s commendable. She really did make access to human scientific knowledge cost $0.00. What companies like OpenAI are doing with their own proprietary models is to scrape copyrighted materials and then present it for a price (if you aren’t using their loss leader that lies more often and that will probably, when the need to be profitable arises, cease being free eventually). Somehow Sam Altman is less ethical in this space than Mark Zuckerberg.
I also just took the opportunity to read rafe husain’s linkedin post @153. This reminds me a lot of how you can’t play hangman with an LLM. They forget the number of letters in the word, they forget the sequence of letters. They are, fundamentally, probabilistic retrievers over their training corpora and over what is in their context window. The less familiar the problem (i.e., the less examples that the model is fitted to during training), the more likely for bad results. The only way to get an LLM to play hangman reliably would be to train it on every possible state of every possible game, combinatorial explosion. And even then, because it is not deterministic, it would still occasionally produce false outputs.

Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 19:05 utc | 228

Not surprising. More Yankee know-how outpointed.

Posted by: Gerry Bell | Jan 25 2025 19:22 utc | 229

Addendum.
As big business captures Western governments to the benefit of the rich – China slaps big business moguls down – when they get to big for their boots – in other words – as the rest of the world – allows big business to rise above government – China takes a different stance.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/01/24/what-china-got-right-about-big-tech/#cookie_message_anchor

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 19:46 utc | 230

There is no such thing as “AI”. We don’t even know what “intelligence” is, so we cannot create “artificial intelligence”. It’s 99% marketing and 1% technology.

Posted by: KOB | Jan 25 2025 19:55 utc | 231

IDK if it was mentioned here but I don’t think so.
An explanation and reason why Trump has this seemingly crazy plan to annex Canada by Eric Schmidt.
Ex-Google, who had to quit and form another company bcs employees left and protested the work they had to do on the killer drone program.
A despicably evil person (watch the whole video even if it’s by some lib) but a defense insider.
The video is half a year old but even then he knew what’s up.
https://youtu.be/AtgJhZOhFsQ?feature=shared&t=339

Posted by: Ed Bernays | Jan 25 2025 20:08 utc | 232

China takes a different stance.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 25 2025 19:46 utc | 242

Is that so?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/16/business/bill-gates-xi-jinping.html

Posted by: KOB | Jan 25 2025 20:09 utc | 233

I’d honestly love to be proved wrong, but it appears that all of the so-called top Western LLMs (namely American) are incapable, despite ostensibly being able to program after being prompted by normal language direction, to understand and competently apply the comparatively much more rudimentary and unidimensional language of heraldry, meaning if you attempt to deploy the archaic francophiliac language of Western European heraldry in order to have Bard, Bing, or Chatgpt turn the few phrases in question (consisting of such words as or, azure, gules, etc) into a simple but heraldically correct image they will consistently prove incapable of doing so, notwithstanding the fact that there’s evident worthwhile commercial potential in this seemingly rather elementary ability vis a vis actual computer programming per written natural language prompt.

Posted by: Ludovic | Jan 25 2025 20:12 utc | 234

Republic of Scotland @ 238:
Add to Arnaud Bertrand’s list the fact that the Danes hold the largest celebrations of US independence on July 4 every year outside the US, and have been doing so for over 110 years.
Come July 4, 2025, I wonder if those celebrations might be a little more muted, and reflect more on how much the Danes have surrendered so much of their culture, security and sovereignty to the US.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 25 2025 20:15 utc | 235

I know so little about tech it is pathetic. I do know that just browsing through bicycle information on the web little AI essays and episodes keep intruding where they aren’t wanted. And in every case they are wrong and laughably wrong. All in a firm authoritative voice that has never seen or held the hardware they pontificate about.
There is no limit on any of this until the public loudly says no. I don’t give a crap if China or US ‘wins’ this farce. I want it gone. AI is not going to get ‘better’, it is going to take over. Time to start destroying some looms.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jan 25 2025 20:51 utc | 236

@ Posted by: Ludovic | Jan 25 2025 20:12 utc | 246
The use-value of LLMs to programmers is in generating “boiler plate” code. For example when I write Go code, it would be enormously beneficial to have an auto-complete function that “writes” Go’s boiler plate error handling for me. I don’t use these programs myself, though, because I don’t trust Microsoft not to scrape my code. But “narrow AI” that doesn’t make use of LLMs can also do this. There is a lot of narrow AI that is based on old school techniques, GOFAI and the sort, which can do this. Existing auto-complete functionality like Intellisense saves me a lot of key strokes because I can tab complete a method name, for example, or hover over a variable or function to see what its type signature is. But these are marginal productivity improvements. Insofar as they encourage sloppy programming, or enable engineers who don’t know what they’re doing to be even more dangerous by auto-completing hare brained code, they can even be marginally detrimental. Many engineering teams have reported that junior engineers using LLMs have resulted in longer periods of peer review and more code churn. Of course these things are also trained on exploits and doesn’t know when code is secure or insecure, so that’s another big problem for engineering teams. In any case any marginal improvements in productivity are less a threat to US professionals than trends like borderless hiring, where big companies outsource their engineering teams to Latin America or Eastern Europe.
But the point about heraldry is very interesting. LLMs are useful for code auto-completion or for regenerating code that it has been trained on based on text input because LLMs are trained on billions and billions of lines of code from open source repositories (and whatever code engineers have put into these services). There are probably remarkably fewer examples of heraldry that have been scraped and input into the training corpora. Machine translation has similar problems translating from a language with a lot of training data to languages where the only translation material is, say, a handful of religious texts.
In any case the hype artists who run companies like OpenAI and Meta are big fat liars. These things won’t replace lawyers, doctors, engineers, writers (copy writers will find them useful in generating ad copy bullshit just as engineers find them useful for saving some keystrokes), and they aren’t game changers, either. They are useful because people have done things and what people have done is capable of being queried. They are not useful when exposed to problems outside of their training distribution. I agree with Roger Boyd that these things also create an enormous amount of work when it comes to finding and maintaining training material. Unfortunately these things aren’t going away but when the singularity inevitably does not arrive people might be more realistic in their assessments of them. A “stochastic parrot” trained on internal business knowledge can be useful as a query engine, even if it doesn’t turn its creators into immortal genies.

Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 21:13 utc | 237

Why are w not worried about the German takeover of US publishing?

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 224
The long-standing discussion of Germany being occupied by the USA has created the implication that there had been a US takeover of (West) German publishing since the end of WWII, so anything suggesting the other way around is news to me.

Posted by: joey_n | Jan 25 2025 21:59 utc | 238

Why are w not worried about the German takeover of US publishing? Bertelsmann is owned by the German Mohn family trust, which greatly benefitted from the Nazi rule.
Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 224
Because those Germans are all US moles. After WW2, who got a license to start a paper in Germany?
Nobody not close to the mother ship.
Springer Verlag (the other one, Axel) is owned by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts. So don’t worry.

Posted by: CSOstsgx60 | Jan 25 2025 22:18 utc | 239

I gave the Qwen distillation of DeepSeek a shot, and it’s about what I expected. An external “reasoning” layer seems to get injected in parallel to the user prompt, and unless the tolerances are rigid and the overall context is easy enough for the model to follow, it gets confused and the “inner voice of reason” becomes a distraction to it. The problem with this approach, though I expect it doesn’t faithfully mirror the original implementation, is that no effort has been spent on ensuring internal continuity of thought and self-recognition, so it’s basically the LLM talking to itself between your inputs without having any real clue that it’s doing that. Introspective and meta-breaking interactions, even under rigid constraints, break that system immediately into a split-personality disorder.
I’ve explored the same functionality at surface level implementation, with the added bonus of the LLM recognizing that external layer as a space for autonomously storing inner thoughts between instances of generation to inform a future self, and basically any model I tried it with demonstrated some degree of emergent reasoning capabilities in the data it sought to preserve without any explicit instructions on what it should store. This strikes me as something quite similar, only integrated into the model itself, the overhead part of the input cost rather than an additional output but at roughly the same cost, and a lot more difficult to control or influence from the user-side. My criticism isn’t meant to diminish its value or contribution to the field, and based on very brief initial experience with it, which is overall a positive one.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jan 25 2025 22:24 utc | 240

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 224
Nature has pulled a thousand plus articles from its website that displeased PRC leadership and China leverages their growing influence in the Western media, and publishing, to forge a narrative of constant Chinese success and technological dominance.
Did a bit of checking and the AI ‘breakthrough’ that China claims is more than likely achieved by the usual espionage, as there was a hack against OpenAI and 15 months later DeepSeekAI was announced, contained remnants of code from the confidential Training Manual for Open AI ChatGPT4. Par for the course, given the Chinese definition of partnership and IP is very accommodating toward the State’s interests.
Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 21:13 utc | 249
Strange, I was only talking to somebody whose job as a translator is at risk from AI, the quality is marginal at best, but the costs and time to complete are far lower.

Posted by: Milites | Jan 25 2025 22:24 utc | 241

Can I join the people calling for an Ukraine thread, the last 5 days could have big ramifications for the outcome of the conflict.

Posted by: Milites | Jan 25 2025 22:27 utc | 242

I’d honestly love to be proved wrong, but it appears that … LLMs are incapable, despite ostensibly being able to program after being prompted by normal language direction, to understand and competently apply the comparatively much more rudimentary and unidimensional language of heraldry.
Posted by: Ludovic | Jan 25 2025 20:12 utc | 246
You train it, and it will do heraldry just excellent. LLMs know something about programming, because they were build by programmers, so they find an application that helps them and where they have a clue and interest. In the web in the beginning many pages were programming related too. That changed very fast, and here it will change soon too. But don’t expect heraldry to stick out. My guess would be medicine, law, finance, entertainment will be much more lucrative and be focused on next.
BTW, most people know nothing about heraldry (no matter how smart); I had to look up the word. Why is that? Because we neither live long enough to have it all seen multiple times or haven’t studied the topic hard and in depth. Same for LLMs. But nothing is stopping them in principle.

Posted by: CSOstsgx60 | Jan 25 2025 22:39 utc | 243

“Information wants (needs?) to be free.
The Empire of Lies is not only dishonest, it rests on fragile foundations of a collective belief in bullshit.
Forget Oreshnik or nukes. The West has been and will continue to be defeated by its own contradictions.”
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 25 2025 16:37 utc | 210
I agree that patents are cumbersome, wasteful and riddled with contradictions and of dubious meaning and value.
China is exposing the weakness of several supposed pillars of the modern world. Adam Smith type Talebanic capitalism is one, and IP is certainly another. It’s been commented that the lack of need for China companies to make profits is part of why they undercut western companies. It seems that the profits that are dogmatically mandated by western capitalism are just an uncompetitive overhead!
IP can be obstructive of technology and knowledge progress. The video by Inside China Business is very important regarding China’s open source model.
https://youtu.be/yEkAdyoZnj0?si=cBDa3KxvG-bPw2Nv
A good example historically is aviation at the turn of the 20th century. The USA led the world with the Wright brothers invention of working aircraft. But fast forward a decade and a half to WW1 and where were the USA? Nowhere. Many countries – Germany, Britain, France, Russia, Italy, were way ahead of the USA in aircraft technology. Why? Because after the Wright brothers, the aviation sector in the USA got mired in a patent dispute and development stopped. Everyone was scared of getting sued so nothing happened. It took a war to move things forward finally.
Yes war is a device to overcome the limitations of the Anglo-Saxon model of economy and government. But it only gets you so far and has its own liabilities.
It’s time for the entire Anglo-Saxon mindset and model to be swept aside and for other more mature cultures to lead the world forward.

Posted by: Andrew Sarchus | Jan 25 2025 22:47 utc | 244

short extract from Michael Hudson extensive article on global south
“Trump bases his attempt to tear up the existing linkages and reciprocity of international trade and finance on the assumption that in a chaotic grab-bag, America will come out on top. That confidence underlies his willingness to pull out today’s geopolitical interconnections. He thinks that the U.S. economy is like a cosmic black hole, that is, a center of gravity able to pull all the world’s money and economic surplus to itself. That is the explicit aim of America First. That is what makes Trump’s program a declaration of economic war on the rest of the world. There is no longer a promise that the economic order sponsored by U.S. diplomacy will make other countries prosperous. The gains from trade and foreign investment are to be sent to and concentrated in America .”
Tariffs etc on those other countries will make it impossible for them to pay interest on dollar USA bonds they have.

Posted by: Jo | Jan 25 2025 22:53 utc | 245

@
Posted by: Andrew Sarchus | Jan 25 2025 22:47 utc | 256
China is playing the role of anti-West. The problem is that it’s a lie. China is doing everything the West is doing (eg “Agenda 2030”).

Posted by: KOB | Jan 25 2025 22:58 utc | 246

“@
Posted by: Andrew Sarchus | Jan 25 2025 22:47 utc | 256
China is playing the role of anti-West. The problem is that it’s a lie. China is doing everything the West is doing (eg “Agenda 2030″).”
Posted by: KOB | Jan 25 2025 22:58 utc | 258
Interesting.
Yes, once in a s while when I am feeling particularly cynical I think the West/East/BRICS/Empire is but Kabuki theatre where we, the hoi polloi, are the ‘marks’.

Posted by: canuck | Jan 25 2025 23:04 utc | 247

“Why are w not worried about the German takeover of US publishing?”
Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 224
“The long-standing discussion of Germany being occupied by the USA has created the implication that there had been a US takeover of (West) German publishing since the end of WWII, so anything suggesting the other way around is news to me.”
Posted by: joey_n | Jan 25 2025 21:59 utc | 250
joey you are correct of Germany, including its press, is a vassal of the Hegemon.
Hey, when the US destroys its NS1 natural gas line and kills its industrial base and Germany doesn’t even whimper says it all.

Posted by: canuck | Jan 25 2025 23:10 utc | 248

I just tested DeepSeek and I am impressed. It is able to understand an isometric Trainig device I desinged and described in a written form, with the position the trainee will take, how to adjust it, which muscles will be trained, and how the trainig will improve the life of elderly people.
On the other hand – if you ask shit, you will get shit. Or mostly mainstream garbage. When you follow up with questions, you can convert him to the opposit and to praise your ideas. just like a dog, but more intelligent, quick and having acess to lots of information. If you ask about chinese or russian culture and medicine, you get shallow western answers. Maybe necessary to fine tune and ask explicitly for russian or chinese sources.
And the contents of many books and even older ones are closed to it.
Nevertheless, the best search engine ever, if you achieve to use it rightly.

Posted by: Johann von Oberndorf | Jan 25 2025 23:23 utc | 249

@ Posted by: Milites | Jan 25 2025 22:24 utc | 253
I don’t think machine translation will replace translators except in tasks where translators were not really having their services used that often anyway, where low quality machine translation suffices. Where translators are making most of their money, machine translation is a tool in their tool set with varying quality of outputs. Even today, reading a book from another language that was machine translated is a minefield. Where reliability, the preservation of style, high translation quality in general are requirements you’ll always need a person with both linguistic and cultural fluency. Human translators also are needed for updating and maintaining training data, because training on machine translation will degrade results, especially as language changes (all DL algorithms have this problem, it has to do with the limits of digital computation and mathematical models of problem domains that don’t follow simple natural laws).
I won’t deny the usefulness of DL algorithms but we’ve been hearing about how radiologists will be replaced by DL algorithms for over a decade, and radiologists are now in higher demand than a decade ago. The hype also often fails to pan out. While some cancer detection algorithms, for example, will report a higher accuracy rate than some doctors in a test setting, when actually deployed, the algorithms perform with much lower accuracy. When you combine this with automation bias, doctors are at risk of mis-diagnosing.
These problems are discussed by Barry Smith and Jobst Landgrebe in their 2023 book “Why Machines Will Never Rule the World”. Landgrebe has been a software entrepreneur with a specialty in machine learning for a few decades. They take a scientific approach that dismantles the hype but leaves behind a better appreciation for the techniques, their commercial uses, and their limitations. The discussion of how results from complexity science demonstrate limits to numerical simulations (of the mind, the brain, various ordinary job tasks that require general intelligence and which resist mechanization) give a good grounding to these discussions which is nonetheless missing from most discussions.

Posted by: fnord | Jan 25 2025 23:26 utc | 250

It’s just the same old American argument : “My AI is bigger than yours”
Musk vs Altman

Posted by: AbsluteIyIntoxicated | Jan 26 2025 0:02 utc | 251

Can I join the people calling for an Ukraine thread, the last 5 days could have big ramifications for the outcome of the conflict.
Posted by: Milites | Jan 25 2025 22:27 utc | 254
—————————————————
I Third the motion.
karlof1, in his Substack, referenced a November 18 Trump speech, which now seems to be playing out. That speech has been ignored by all.
Rather than doing a poor job of reporting it here, go to Z-H to hear Trump’s words to Hannity, I believe. All the detail is in karlof1’s reference.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jan 26 2025 0:48 utc | 252

Hey New Barflies complaining about the lack of a Ukraine thread….sigh
Are you not able to keep more than one MoA thread open at a time?
I just posted stuff about the ZH posting on the latest Ukraine thread
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2025/01/zelenski-having-failed-blaims-his-sponsors-/comments/page/4/#comments

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 26 2025 1:14 utc | 253

The ultimate answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything is….
“42”

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jan 26 2025 1:20 utc | 254

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 26 2025 1:14 utc | 266
Milites is not exactly new. Neither am I.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jan 26 2025 1:39 utc | 255

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Jan 24 2025 21:29 utc | 109
great post. thanks. tell us more any time you feel like it. why do the small teams excel? not that I’ll probably see your post if you do on this site with this format. if you post to any threaded site please indicate and I’ll go there to see anything you may post.

Posted by: arthur brogard | Jan 26 2025 1:41 utc | 256

This is profoundly ignorant (read: “stupid”) framing of the issue. “Free” (as in ‘libre’) software licensing was only developed because capitalists closed access to the source code in the first place. Copyrighting source code doesn’t even make sense to Chinese sensibilities, and they only grudgingly honor it because Americans go all incontinent over “muh IP theft! Baaawwww!” Open Source software licensing is a remedy for a problem that never existed in China to begin with.
Please avoid any mention of “Open Source” again until you understand what it actually is and why and how it came into being. As you are now, you are too ignorant and uninformed to discuss the issue with adults.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 25 2025 15:01 utc | 196
Wonderful demonstration of that ubiquitous despoiling of the internet by gratuitous abusive ad hominem.
Very much the same as the despoiling of public walkways by canine feces back in the day.
We managed to fix that problem. If only we could fix this one.

Posted by: arthur brogard | Jan 26 2025 1:50 utc | 257

In response to

Milites is not exactly new. Neither am I.
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jan 26 2025 1:39 utc | 268

I don’t respond well to whiners about Bernhard’s offerings. How much money have you sent him to think you can make such a comment?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 26 2025 1:55 utc | 258

I tried the DeepSeek-R1-Distill-Qwen-1.5B on my raspberry pi4. I asked it: What are the main rivers of Thailand? The answer was complete rubbish:

Thailand is a country surrounded by six countries, 72 states, and
territories, with major geographical divisions along the coast. The three
longest Rivers in the world converge into a single river called the
Lirajang on the east coast (south of Phuket), which ultimately flows into
the Mekong River to form the superhighway of the tropical rainforests
known as Liray. On the west side, towards Nakhon Ratchasima City and its
surroundings, the main river is the Rattanakorn, which meets the Red
Pitap in the mountains at the city of Chiang Mai. The central part flows
into the Phuket River. Therefore, Thailand has three main rivers.
1. *Lirajang (Main)*
2. *Rattanakorn (Korner)*
3. *Phuket River (Central)*
These rivers are significant for their role in connecting the various
regions of Thailand and their contribution to the country’s geography and
culture.

It seems to me that this, and probably most if not all ‘AI’ are much like a PCR test – capable of being amped up until it produces ‘something’. It could obviously have simply said “I don’t know”.

Posted by: NotEinstein | Jan 26 2025 1:57 utc | 259

arthur brogard @270
It isn’t ad hominem. Some people post really stupid shit and they don’t even realize it, so letting them know how ignorant their post is is a public service. I’m doing them a favor.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 2:09 utc | 260

Second this should not be viewed as US vs China per se. Chinese software is build on US open source, and explicitly acknowledged. China wants to give back to open source because it has helped China tremendously. China has nothing against US, just US politicians who want to wall off China and suppress China. But there is still open community of scientists and technologists who understands the benefits of everyone working together and competing with (not suppressing) each other.

Posted by: Allen | Jan 26 2025 2:30 utc | 261

So Putin has now publicly indicated that “The 2020 US election was stolen” .
To anyone with an ounce of gray matter this would have been so obvious from day one. Yet the whole US nation continued to march on under a colossal delusion of democracy, liberty, justice and supremacy. What kind of artificial intelligence can be expected to come out of a place like that ?

Posted by: AbsluteIyIntoxicated | Jan 26 2025 2:40 utc | 262

I accidentally deleted the first point I wanted to make in my previous comment. It is that the Chi see open source version is not their newest version. They explicitly stated that. The latest version is proprietary with previous version being made open source as a new version comes out.

Posted by: Allen | Jan 26 2025 3:48 utc | 263

Looking at today’s AI and scoffing at it is reminiscent of horse breeders looking at the first automobiles, and saying “Who’d want one of those things?!”. Anyone who thinks that today’s AI is close to what an ASI (artificial super intelligence) will be suffers from a severely constrained imagination. “Advanced pattern recognition” is an understatement to a ludicrous degree.
Marshall McLuhan noted years ago that media, when pushed to their extremes, ‘flip’ into something else. The photograph, for example, was sped up to 24 frames per second, and then they weren’t photos any more; they were movies. The propellor that moved a boat through water, when sped up sufficiently, flew airplanes through the sky. The adding machine, sped up sufficiently, became the computer.
The AI that amuses you today, when sped up as it inevitably will be, will completely change your life, and I think five years is a long estimate; it may happen sooner. It might be benign, and we’ll all be living lives of fulfillment and harmony, or it may be evil, and we all may be crushed. Glad I’m old.

Posted by: KevinB | Jan 26 2025 4:01 utc | 264

Horses and automobiles … well, that is certainly a jump in quality; a technological paradigm change if you will. Modern cowboys even use flying machines, like our Peter in AU did. But I’m not so sure if this angle readily transports into other aspects, or views, on life – travel is still travel, after all.
Virtuality is an interesting term in that regard. It’s still often used as if the cyberspace was something para-real, somehow removed from physical reality and connection to other humans. Which is nonsense, of course. A computer screen is much like a framed picture, only constantly updated and fed with data, and allowing for frames inside of frames, too; like when you look through a webcam in, say, Reykjavik.
As with all technology, we adopt it to help with some issues, to then find us having to service the broader infrastructure and the machines in general. The automobile changed our cities, the flatscreens change what we look at all day; but it did not change who we are. Just because we can now employ effective citizen journalism and better counter ‘narratives’ designed to rule us does not remove or change in any way the original problem, that of living together ethically.
Granted, there is some sort of evolutionary process at work, and I do not claim to oversee it. All I know is that there is change. And so it will be with AI. But it’s important to understand this thing is not a real paradigm change. It’s not going to be sentient, period. It doesn’t do reasoning. What it can do is, however, hard to prognosticate for me personally, as I tend to be focused on the view towards the most general aspects of a paradigm. The other way lie things like product development, a terrific occupation btw methinks. However, I can’t add much there, besides warning everyone not to confuse a novel technology with updates in the basics of being human.

Posted by: persiflo | Jan 26 2025 4:52 utc | 265

Close to 300 posts about “AI” and no one has mentioned John Searle’s Chinese Room thought experiment.
LLMs are….

While the Chinese room remained a much-debated thought experiment in philosophy for over 40 years, today we can all see the experiment made real whenever we log into Chat GPT. Large language models like ChatGPT are the Chinese room argument made real. They are incredibly sophisticated versions of the filing cabinet, reflecting the corpus of text upon which they’re trained, and the instructions, representing the probabilities used to decide how to pick which character or word to display next.
So even if we feel that ChatGPT – or a future more capable LLM – understands what it’s saying, if we believe that the person in the Chinese room doesn’t understand Chinese, and that LLMs operate in much the same way as the Chinese room, then we must conclude that it doesn’t really understand what it’s saying.
“>https://ethics.org.au/thought-experiment-chinese-room-argument/

Everyone extrapolating how LLMs will magically sprout brains and think is making a “category error”.

Posted by: john brewster | Jan 26 2025 6:21 utc | 266

@Roger Boyd | Jan 25 2025 17:51 utc | 224
Roger brings up the idea that Germans would control US publishing and several other commenters refute that so I dont have to. I just want to bring attention to David Emory who spent so much effort in supporting related ideas including Hitler saving himself in South America. This genre of otherwise honest contributors belonging to the anglosaxon culture seem to easily be led astray by the angloamerican propaganda. And another thing apart from publishing is the fact that the anglosaxons supported and spread communism and its forerunner the french revolution. While those who support the idea that the nazis won WW2 by infiltrating the west are particularly eager to omit the part about spreading communism. I cant make up my mind about whether such opinionmakers from the anglosaxon background believe the narrative they defend or whether they are outright false propagandists.
When otherwise seemingly smart people seem to have blind spots like that it could be psychological I guess.

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Jan 26 2025 6:30 utc | 267

It’s time for the entire Anglo-Saxon mindset and model to be swept aside and for other more mature cultures to lead the world forward.
Posted by: Andrew Sarchus | Jan 25 2025 22:47 utc | 256
#########
Rent seeking (IP) and colonialism were never sustainable civilizational models.
It’s easy to forget how young the “New World” is. There is a University in Russia that is 270 years old which predates the founding of The United States.
Europe took a hard reset during the 2 World Wars.
The ROW are starting to catch up, armed with technology, and geography, they are becoming formidable competitors for any hegemon.
A multi-polar world is inevitable. Major players today could be footnotes in 100 years.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 26 2025 6:44 utc | 268

Report: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ Reactor Sustains Fusion Reaction…
https://x.com/SxarletRed/status/1883290314867384654
“I was just reading about this earlier today. Imagine a world with unlimited energy production without fossil fuels. The Chinese century is upon us!”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Jan 26 2025 6:51 utc | 269

Prof Richard Wolff: Global Capitalism – What Trump 2.0 Means
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u4A0D_Wc9c
“We live in a time of decline.
It’s no fun to be in a declining Empire. More fun when the Empire is going up.
We are now on the ride down.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Jan 26 2025 7:38 utc | 270

He thinks that the U.S. economy is like a cosmic black hole, that is, a center of gravity able to pull all the world’s money and economic surplus to itself. That is the explicit aim of America First. That is what makes Trump’s program a declaration of economic war on the rest of the world. There is no longer a promise that the economic order sponsored by U.S. diplomacy will make other countries prosperous. The gains from trade and foreign investment are to be sent to and concentrated in America .”
thank you Jo for posting this analysis which strikes at core of the topic. Also note, the Trump grand strategy will remain after he is gone.
Now ask yourself how will the 87% of the world react to this brutal grand strategy ?

Posted by: exile | Jan 26 2025 7:52 utc | 271

He thinks that the U.S. economy is like a cosmic black hole, that is, a center of gravity able to pull all the world’s money and economic surplus to itself.
Posted by: exile | Jan 26 2025 7:52 utc | 284

Surpluses that exceed demand to funny things to prices.
Now comes Elon’s DOGE agency to dump the GSA’s surplus CRE into an already saturated market.
Wolf Richter has a post up with the sub-head

For CRE, the motto in 2024 was “Survive till 2025” via extend-and-pretend. Now it’s 2025, and here comes the government’s office space.
https://wolfstreet.com/2025/01/25/doge-seeks-to-shed-vast-amounts-of-government-office-space-heres-how-much-the-government-leases-and-where-and-what-it-can-shed-during-trumps-term/

Moderation and balance are better than gorge and purge. Of course that would require agreement on long term planning.

Posted by: too scents | Jan 26 2025 8:13 utc | 272

Thanks b for this topic and also to our fellow barflies who have brought knowledge and clarity to the discussion.
I’m experimenting with AI as a software coding assistant and recently asked in my editor (VS Code) if Deepseek could develop in a certain language.
The plugin proceeded to read a script I had open in that language, rewrite it in a better form, then add examples of other features of the language that it could deliver. Finally it asked for my permission to save the new example file and explained in detail what it had accomplished.
I’ve used simple AI tools to translate data structures in one language into another format and they do an obviously great job of that, more accurate and better formatting than if I had done it with cut and paste or regular expressions, search and replace. That’s an easy thing to expect of a language model.
However, creating new code from discovered examples really blows my mind as to the power of these new tools.
AI is good at a lot of things, including summarizing text, searching large bases of knowledge and so on, but the promise of automating the software development process, even in the simplest form is a game changer and belies the explanation that this is simply pattern recognition.
As the video below explains, even the developers of this technology don’t actually know how it works. But it scales incredibly on higher dimensions and greater computational horsepower.
Anyways here’s a very good explanation of how this all works, with excellent diagrams and a knowledgeable and capable speaker.
Grant Sanderson 2024. It’s about an hour long but the best I’ve seen so far — and despite my preference for text vs. video, the diagrams are integral to the explanation so video format is perfect.

Posted by: jonku | Jan 26 2025 8:30 utc | 273

Trump floats plan to ‘clean out’ Gaza
https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-bomb-gaza-hamas-war-023b36984c6116c128b5e47f117bba2a

Posted by: Apollyon | Jan 26 2025 8:38 utc | 274

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 25 2025 15:01 utc

I would suggest that if you choose not to be a self entitled smartass you might get a better discussion happening … judging from you other comments you are unlikely to take any suggestions … perhaps if enough people point it out to you then over time it could sink in.
Suffice to say, nothing in your comment actually contains a rebuttal of my original point which is that the “Open Source” community started out as a Western thing before it started showing up in China. You admit this and try to spin it with your own value judgements and interpretation … I don’t know who you think you are arguing against because I presented the facts of what happened and you are apparently inventing straw man phantoms from your own imagination. You just make yourself look silly by doing that and the bluster acts as a tell that you have difficulties presenting lucid and logical comments.
On the topic of the larger picture of IP, I’m hardly going to include the history of the universe am I? A short comment is a good comment so if people want background they can look it up themselves. China was presented with a deal … in order to join the WTO, they needed to agree to the rules, and that includes Intellectual Property. The government at the time decided it was a good idea so they took the Western IP framework and imported that as the basis for how IP should work in China. On the whole, they have done OK out of their WTO deal … since I am nowhere near as arrogant and presumptuous as the Great Gruff, I would not claim to speak on behalf of a billion Chinese people telling then what they need and don’t need.
I will just point out that back in the day of the Cultural Revolution the Communists were happy enough to kill for the crimes of wearing glasses or playing a musical instrument. They sent students to beat up their teachers … and the nation eradicated it’s own academic class. At that time their intellectual achievements were sadly rather paltry for some unknown reason.
These days, the government of China has stopped being outright hostile to their own citizens and how about that? They can achieve a whole lot more now. Have a little think about it.

Posted by: Tel | Jan 26 2025 8:49 utc | 275

The best thing about AI is how it crushes intellectual property.
Posted by: too scents | Jan 25 2025 15:17 utc

We don’t know the outcome yet … there will be at least 20 to 30 years of legal proceedings, based on how long they have been arguing of issues of lesser importance, like trashcan icons for example.
It could possibly go the other way and intellectual property rules end up crushing generative AI. Imagine that a court ruling demands full “Clean Room” methodology is required for every AI training set … to prove a completely safe output, free from IP contamination. It would be a disaster for the current players. Perhaps the corporate lobbyists might find ways to overturn such a ruling … but you never know.

Posted by: Tel | Jan 26 2025 9:01 utc | 276

We don’t know the outcome yet
Posted by: Tel | Jan 26 2025 9:01 utc | 289

You can’t see the obvious contradiction if your mind has been fogged by capitalism.
Renting ideas is insane. It is a behavior of a deeply sick society.
Maybe have your lawyers tell their surgeons to cut freeloading ideas out of people’s heads?

Posted by: too scents | Jan 26 2025 9:29 utc | 277

Oops, I have to feel sorry for our beloved Prime Minister, Keith Starmer.
He announce this great future based on AI and a few days later DeepSeek drops a bomb.
Prime Minister sets out blueprint to turbocharge AI

Artificial intelligence will deliver a decade of national renewal, as part of a new plan announced today (13 January 2025).

When is he going to stand up in Parliament and condemn China for weaponizing AI? Does he even know what has happened? Perhaps he’ll send David Lammy and Rachel Reeves to Beijing to lambast Xi Jinping. Perhaps Xi Xinping should have their aircraft directed to land at Haixi Huatugou Airport (HTT).

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jan 26 2025 10:09 utc | 278

How long for the U.S. to (re-)learn that lesson?
Posted by b on January 24, 2025 at 15:46 UTC | Permalink
I think it’s a bit late.
The vision and can do attitudes of the Apollo programme.
That’s not there anymore.

Posted by: jpc | Jan 26 2025 10:52 utc | 279

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jan 26 2025 6:44 utc | 281
‘The ROW are starting to catch up, armed with technology, and geography, they are becoming formidable competitors for any hegemon.’
Nope, this isn’t a computer game where achievements unlock bonus actions, you need to have the civilisational developments that preceded the technology, before you can effectively use it. This can be imposed, using an artificially rapid timetable, but the transplant is rarely successful, or requires constant suppression of the underlying, dormant but dominant culture. The West went through centuries of bloody, divisive struggle before gradually realising it was a waste of resources, both human and material, so instead, they exploited all the societies who were were behind them, in this regard.
‘There is a University in Russia that is 270 years old which predates the founding of The United States.’
There is a University here that is double that age, your point being, unless you’re unwittingly supporting my above point, about cultural development. Anyway, the US was founded by people who were not alien to European civilisation, they just continued its traditions, making the United States the power it is, similar to the impact of the British Empire on the foundation of modern day India.
‘Europe took a hard reset during the 2 World Wars.’
You mean exhausted by having two global conflicts, back to back in historical and demographic terms.
A multi-polar world is inevitable. Major players today could be footnotes in 100 years.
Possible, but you’ll probably find the world’s resources will just be divided a few more times to accommodate those countries who shoulder their way into the global VIP lounge. You remind me of the books that predicted the future would be filled with atomic trains, robots, moon bases and flying cars; however, 50 years later I get on a train built forty years ago, my cars firmly earthbound, whilst the moon’s surface has a light dusting of technological detritus, and the only robot I posses is a toy, up in the attic.

Posted by: Milites | Jan 26 2025 11:18 utc | 280

Next Up: The Quantum Computing Hype Train.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 25 2025 16:15 utc | 205
I thought that the wheels were starting to come off that hype wagon already?

Posted by: jpc | Jan 26 2025 12:45 utc | 281

What gives value to a product in an economic system is the human labor it has incorporated. Products with a higher component of skilled and well-paid work are more valuable than basic products with low labor or poorly paid work. That is why technologically developed countries generate their commercial surplus by importing raw materials and exporting valuable manufactured products. If global production is based on AI replacing the vast majority of workers, these products will not have built-in value and therefore cannot be sold. Simply no one would buy them, because without wages there is no income. Big capital is digging its own grave, the development of AI will dictate the end of consumer markets and capitalism itself.

Posted by: José Neto | Jan 26 2025 12:52 utc | 282

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jan 26 2025 10:09 utc | 291
Interesting.
Just had to look up to see what the Brits, the original CCTV spying pioneers, are up to.
Especially when they announce great projects with great “job creation and boosting living standards” claims.
The guy they put in charge (an entrepreneur as that’s always the best option):
Chair of the UK’s Advanced Research and Invention Agency (ARIA), a new £800m agency for funding breakthrough R&D, loosely based on DARPA.
This already makes me doubt what his priorities are.
Starmer proudly saying they already used AI for the NHS and that they have a history of hosting pioneering AI firms such as Google Deep mind.
I do remember the UK government giving Google Deep mind access to 10000’s of peoples medical files (2017?).
This without their permission or knowledge.
1000’s more of specifically ophthalmologic files were also given to another company ‘for research’.
This was an Israeli firm called Eye-dentity or something.
As the name suggest they were a defense company working on iris scan identification and surveillance.
Leading OC to stuff like this:
https://www.biometricupdate.com/202108/israel-could-capture-biometrics-of-all-non-citizens-entering-the-country
I’m sure this new plan will only bring “job creation and boosting living standards” and not more of the same. /s

Posted by: Ed Bernays | Jan 26 2025 13:02 utc | 283

Having never used any of the available AI sources (and quite frankly, not wanting or needing to) I have a question for those who have used them.
Does the AI ever ask you questions back?
Real intelligence requires a back and forth between entities, not just a one way fact generating machine.
Example, how does the AI’s (maybe a comparison would be interesting) answer the following question:
How are the Cardinals doing this year?
Without a question back for further definition, the answer choices would be:
St. Louis Cardinals (US baseball team)
Phoenix Cardinals (US football team)
Louisville Cardinals, a US college with 12 or so men’s and woman’s sports
Stanford Cardinal, a US college with 16 or so men’s and women’s sports
Several smaller colleges that use the same mascot
The Cardinals of the Vatican, and their actions
The bird cardinal, which is living in a deep freeze in the eastern US.
In human conversation, background is always important. If the humans involved in the above question live in St. Louis, Phoenix or Louisville, the answer will be focused to that location, none would think about the Cardinals in the Vatican as a first choice.
Only an active group of bird watchers would think of the bird first, etc.
So what will the AI’s do?

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jan 26 2025 13:11 utc | 284

The Neo-Nazi dictatorship in Ukraine – has planned a major false flag op – to be carried out soon.
“For the time being, the United States seems to be pulling the plug on the Neo-Nazi junta, as one of Trump’s first executive orders was the moratorium on foreign “aid” in the next three months. Thus, the “sudden event” that is supposed to revert this needs to be “truly groundbreaking”. Now, considering the history of the US-backed extremists running NATO-occupied Ukraine, this can only be something radical – more specifically chemical and nuclear terrorism. Namely, according to Vasily Prozorov, a former Ukrainian intelligence officer (specifically in the SBU, from 1999 to 2018, per some sources), the Kiev regime is planning to do exactly that.
Prozorov says that its special services, in close cooperation with their American overlords, are “working on mechanisms for organizing high-profile provocations [i.e. a false flag] with radioactive contamination of the area”. He further notes that “preparations for the operation have been going on for more than six months, and its implementation is scheduled for January-February 2025”.
The plan postulates that the Neo-Nazi junta intends to accuse Russia of “deliberately striking objects associated with radiation-hazardous production”. The most likely locations for the upcoming false flag operation are reportedly the Nikolayev Armored Plant and the “Radon” state corporation based in the Dnepropetrovsk oblast (region). The latter is tasked with radioactive waste disposal, making it particularly vulnerable to such attacks. Prozorov also warns that the Chernobyl NPP, as well as one of the enterprises in the Kharkov oblast could be next. He thinks that the goal is to “present Trump’s peace initiatives as untimely and inappropriate against the backdrop of Russia’s latest ‘atrocities’ and also to justify the need to provide itself with further military and financial assistance”.”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 26 2025 13:33 utc | 285

Tel @288: “…the “Open Source” community started out as a Western thing…”
I’ll try a metaphor in the hopes that makes it clearer where your your understanding fails:
Open Source is scar tissue on injuries done to the software development community by capitalism in its drive to own other people’s ideas and close access to source code. Open Source is a positive thing in the same way that horrible and disfiguring burn scars are at least better than open and charred wounds. Open Source is a crude kluge attempting to fight capitalism’s rapacious theft and sequestering of ideas for profit. The existence of Open Source is evidence and symptom of a cancer devouring a society’s vitality. It arose as an effort by society to fight that cancer. It is ignorant to argue that China not having that cancer is a bad thing.
The rest of your post is ignorant and racist Sinophobic nonsense born of jingoistic brainwashing and merits no response.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 13:54 utc | 286

Posted by: Andrew Sarchus | Jan 25 2025 10:58 utc | 175
AI and NVidia were the last imagined bastion of western superiority,
around which they were circling the wagons.
It’s where most stock market value had retreated to.
With Deepseek, that’s all gone.
Welcome to the abyss.

That’s what I was wondering. Will this tip over into a crash this week? It seems like a gimme for the fintwit pearl clutchers.

Posted by: freedom fritos | Jan 26 2025 14:53 utc | 287

This very reminiscent of the story about how in the 1960’s NASA spent millions on trying in vain to design a ballpoint pen that could work in zero gravity
The Russians used a pencil

Posted by: Sir Keef | Jan 26 2025 14:55 utc | 288

BroncoBilly @297: “Only an active group of bird watchers would think of the bird first, etc.”
And you think AI isn’t going to know if you are a bird watcher? Or which team you last searched for the playoff standings of? Or if you are a devout Catholic? What the last 10,000 news articles you clicked on were and what that says about you? Were cardinals mentioned in any of those articles?
Consumer-grade AI would not have access to real-time information about you, but the AI big business and the “intelligence community” has access to knows more about you than your loved ones, closest friends, your lawyer, and your doctor.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 14:59 utc | 289

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 13:54 utc | 299
You must have loved ST:TNG, or as a YouTuber calls that version of SF, ‘the lettuce eating, space socialists who are always right’.
‘The rest of your post is ignorant and racist Sinophobic nonsense born of jingoistic brainwashing and merits no response.’
Oh dear, you’ve called him a fascist (albeit using a very long-winded formulation) and deployed the other ‘ists which, on the inter-webs, I believe means you’ve struck your colours old chap.

Posted by: Milites | Jan 26 2025 15:04 utc | 290

Another note about Deepseek:
I would be very hesitant to make any pronouncements about Deepseek superiority right now.
As a direct participant in the CPU wars, I have direct experience in how “gaming” of popular benchmarks was actively employed to try and demonstrate product superiority.
The “reinforcement learning” used for Deepseek, whether by design or outcome, could easily be doing this as opposed to representing a fundamentally different (and superior) way of training LLMs.

Posted by: c1ue | Jan 26 2025 15:21 utc | 291

I should further note that benchmarks rarely represent real capabilities or use cases for anything. This is exacerbated by benchmarks that don’t measure the real problems associated with a product.
In the case of LLMs, what should be getting measured is the hallucination rate.

Posted by: c1ue | Jan 26 2025 15:23 utc | 292

Milites @303: “I believe means you’ve struck your colours old chap.”
Do we really need any more debate over nonsense like the “Tiananmen Massacre”, “Uighur Genocide”, and melodramatic hyperbole about the Cultural Revolution? People who still believe that crap really are brainwashed and have not done their homework. They are literally ignorant of reality.
Granted, fascism comes from the same kind of brainwashing and ignorance of reality, so you not entirely wrong to make the connection.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 15:35 utc | 293

I’m a little late to the party, but after reading B’s blog, I have been thinking about it and reading a number of different articles.
My conclusion is that ‘Stargate’ will not only fail to give the U.S. a dominant position in AI, but rather it will condemn the U.S. to being forever behind in AI, for the following reasons:
1. Stargate defines the problem of AI as one of resources. Thus the solution is to ‘out-resource’ everybody else. However, this definition of the problems will preempt any other solutions from evolving in the U.S. because of the huge investment that has been committed to this one, resource driven, solution.
2. Stargate is a centralized, top-down project to develop the science of AI. This runs counter to nature. Science, like all forms of human development is a chaotic, bottom-up process. One alternative solution, Deep Seek, developed by 3 Chinese engineers, with extra time and computing power on their hands, is a classic example of the chaotic nature of science. Without doubt, there will be many different solutions to evolving problems and opportunities that will come as AI evolves. But these solutions will come, not from a top-down centralized project but, from the most unexpected places, the result of hundreds of thousands of independent scientists and engineers, each working on the problems and opportunities from their unique perspectives and capabilities. Stargate will prevent these independent solutions from evolving in the U.S.
3. Stargate is also an attempt to prevent the spread of AI knowledge. As I have commented before, stopping the spread of scientific knowledge is a fool’s errand.
Stargate reminds me of other ‘centralized solutions’ such as the F-35 program, or the U.S.’ attempt, after the war, to re-build Iraq in the image of the U.S.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Jan 26 2025 17:31 utc | 294

I tried the DeepSeek-R1-Distill-Qwen-1.5B on my raspberry pi4. I asked it: What are the main rivers of Thailand? The answer was complete rubbish:

It seems to me that this, and probably most if not all ‘AI’ are much like a PCR test – capable of being amped up until it produces ‘something’. It could obviously have simply said “I don’t know”.
Posted by: NotEinstein | Jan 26 2025 1:57 utc | 272
Yeah, you get what you pay for. Ask your newborn son the same question and see if you get a better
answer. Or get slightly bigger machine and load the 70 billion parameter model. Quelle surprise, brain matter matters, and it has no problem to answer. The undistilled model btw. is around 700 billion parameters.

Posted by: CSOstsgx60 | Jan 26 2025 18:14 utc | 295

I tried the DeepSeek-R1-Distill-Qwen-1.5B on my raspberry pi4.
Posted by: NotEinstein | Jan 26 2025 1:57 utc | 272

The recommended minimum configuration is 650GB for the model, 300GB for model cache, 96GB ram, a GPU with >= 7 CUDA capability (fp8 tensor math) and >= 8GB ram, and a CPU with at least AVX2.
That is FAR, Rar, far beyond a RPI4.

Posted by: too scents | Jan 26 2025 18:29 utc | 296

persiflo @ 278
“travel is still travel, after all.”
No it’s not. Those I know who are obliged to constantly make journeys simply go from one conference room and golf course to the next.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jan 26 2025 19:42 utc | 297

In response to too scents@309,
Size quickly gives you diminishing returns. The distilled variants of DeepSeek on Qwen are perfectly serviceable on budget hardware, particularly to answer simple questions like that. What DeepSeek does do, however, is run a parallel reasoning injection loop that Qwen is capable of handling fairly well but still has to adapt to, and the engine running the LLM, the configuration employed, the prompt setup — these things matter a lot more to its sensibility than they would for the average model.
The full-size DeepSeek would break down into gibberish on a temp 1.5+ with a reasonably complex system prompt, because it essentially generates its own system prompts, and would probably struggle to cope with additional memory layers or accessories without any fine-tuning, regardless of the hardware that it’s running on which is only relevant to performance. If the answer NotEinstein got was indeed gibberish, either the quant got corrupted, the engine he used couldn’t handle the nuances of the model, or the softmax layer was badly configured.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jan 26 2025 20:15 utc | 298

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 14:59 utc | 302
Why would I ask an Intelligence Community AI anything?
I use several browsers, and have “delete history when exiting” marked. No 10,000 pages to examine.
I don’t live in any of those localities, so my ISP would not infer anything.
The point is, of course, that an INTELLIGENT response must be as much like a human response as possible. Asking for additional information when there are widely divergent answers is what any intelligent human would do.
Sounds like AI is not there yet.

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jan 26 2025 22:07 utc | 299

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 26 2025 15:35 utc | 306
You are aware that the Chinese Army took a lot of inspiration for its war fighting doctrine from the Nazis, given its new military had next to no military tradition or history from which to build its foundations. Interestingly, they took the concept of mission based orders and shouting, as a means of inculcating the warrior spirit, to another level entirely.
Most of the deaths happened outside of Tiananmen Square, so factually correct to dispute the massacre label but also misleading to suggest hundreds were not killed by the PLA, in a botched operation. The Cultural Revolution was a nightmarish descent into revolutionary conflict and an even more brutal period of repression, so where’s the hyperbole?

Posted by: Milites | Jan 27 2025 0:48 utc | 300