Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 6, 2024
U.S. Has Stopped Ukrainian ATACMS Strikes On Russia

As further ATACMS strikes on Russia seem to have stopped this timeline is of interest.

November 18:

U.S. allows Ukraine to use ATACMS missiles against targets within Russia:

The reversal of policy, nearly 1,000 days since Russia started its full-scale invasion on Ukraine, comes largely in response to Russia's deployment of North Korean troops to supplement its forces, a development that has caused alarm in Washington and Kyiv, a U.S. official and a source familiar with the decision told Reuters.

[Note: There is no evidence that any North Korean troops were deployed by Russia anywhere near Ukraine.]

November 19 and November 20/21:

Ukraine hits an ammunition depot in Russia's Bryansk Oblast, far from any relevant frontline, as well as military facilities in Russia's Kursk oblast:

On November 19, six ATACMS tactical ballistic missiles produced by the United States, and on November 21, during a combined missile assault involving British Storm Shadow systems and HIMARS systems produced by the US, attacked military facilities inside the Russian Federation in the Bryansk and Kursk regions.

The fire at the ammunition depot in the Bryansk Region, caused by the debris of ATACMS missiles, was extinguished without casualties or significant damage. In the Kursk Region, the attack targeted one of the command posts of our group North. Regrettably, the attack and the subsequent air defence battle resulted in casualties, both fatalities and injuries, among the perimeter security units and servicing staff.

November 21:

Russia fires a new missile with hypersonic kinetic warheads at a military industrial complex in Dnipro:

In response to the deployment of American and British long-range weapons, on November 21, the Russian Armed Forces delivered a combined strike on a facility within Ukraine’s defence industrial complex. In field conditions, we also carried out tests of one of Russia’s latest medium-range missile systems – in this case, carrying a non-nuclear hypersonic ballistic missile that our engineers named Oreshnik. The tests were successful, achieving the intended objective of the launch. In the city of Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine, one of the largest and most famous industrial complexes from the Soviet Union era, which continues to produce missiles and other armaments, was hit.

November 23 and 25:

Ukraine continues with ATACMS strikes against targets within Russia:

On 23 November, the enemy fired five U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles at a position of an S-400 anti-aircraft battalion near Lotarevka (37 kilometres north-west of Kursk).

During a surface-to-air battle, a Pantsir AAMG crew protecting the battalion destroyed three ATACMS missiles, and two hit their intended targets.

As a result of the strike, a radar was damaged. There are casualties among personnel.

On 25 November, the Kiev regime delivered one more strike by eight ATACMS operational-tactical missiles at the Kursk-Vostochny airfield (near Khalino). Seven missile were shot down by S-400 SAM and Pantsir AAMG systems, one missile hit the assigned target. Two servicemen were lightly wounded and infrastructure objects sustained minor damage by missile debris.

After investigating the attacked sites it was confirmed that the AFU delivered strikes by U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles.

November 27:

The Russian Gen. Valery Gerasimov has a phone call with Gen. CQ Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:

Gen. Valery Gerasimov initiated last Wednesday's call with Gen. CQ Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to provide him with that warning and to also discuss Ukraine and how to avoid miscalculation between the U.S. and Russia about that ongoing conflict.

November 28:

Putin announces the response to the November 23/25 strikes:

Last night, we conducted a comprehensive strike utilising 90 missiles of these classes and 100 drones, successfully hitting 17 targets. These included military installations, defence industry sites, and their support infrastructure. I want to emphasise once again that these strikes were carried out in response to the continued attacks on Russian territory using American ATACMS missiles. As I have repeatedly stated, such actions will always elicit a response.

It seems that Russia's message has finally reached its recipient.

December 5/6:

In another strike on Russia Ukraine has used fix wing UAVs but no ATACMS:

Last night, the Russian Armed Forces have foiled another attempt by the Kiev regime to launch a terrorist attack using a fixed-wing UAV against the facilities in the Russian Federation.

Thirty three Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles were intercepted by alerted air defence systems over Kursk region. Fourteen UAVs were shot down over the territory of Voronezh region, eleven over Kursk region, seven over Belgorod region, and one over the Crimean Republic.

Moreover, the naval aviation of the Black Sea Fleet destroyed two uncrewed surface vehicles moving to the Crimean peninsula in waters of the Black Sea.

Since Gerasimov's phone call (and Putin's speech) there have been NO reports of any further ATACMS (or Storm Shadow) strikes on Russia!

During his announcement of the latest strikes Putin also described the effects of the hypersonic missile strike:

The system deploys dozens of homing warheads that strike the target at a velocity of Mach 10, equivalent to approximately three kilometres per second. The temperature of the impact elements reaches 4,000 degrees Celsius – nearing the surface temperature of the sun, which is around 5,500–6,000 degrees.

Consequently, everything within the explosion’s epicentre is reduced to fractions, elementary particles, essentially turning to dust. The missile is capable of destroying even heavily fortified structures and those located at significant depths.

During several interviews in recent days MIT Prof. Ted Postol disagreed (vid) with Putin's claim. Postol describes the Oreshnik impacts as shallow surface explosions with the force of about 1.5 times the weight equivalent in TNT explosives. With an estimated warhead weight of 100 kilogram the impact of each of the Oreshnik's 36 warheads would be no bigger than a regular small bomb. This would make them mostly useless against anything but large area surface targets.

I am doubtful that Postol got this right:

  • Putin is usually extraordinary well informed and not in the habit of making false claims. If he states that Oreshnik warheads have deep penetration capabilities then they are likely to have these.
  • It would make little to no sense for the Russian's to demonstrate the Oreshnik on hardened targets, as the bunkers of the Yuzhmash machine plant are, if it does not have significant effects on these. It would be a bluff that could and would be immediately called by the Pentagon specialist inspecting the localities and observing the effects.
  • The U.S. is taking the strike seriously. It has reacted by stopping support for further Ukrainian ATACMS strikes on Russia.

Weapon experts like Postol have little experience with hypersonic projectiles which impact at 10 times the speed of sound. I believe that his assessment is sincere. He also applies the necessary caveats. But I doubt that he, like most other experts, has sufficient experience with the effects of dart like hypersonic projectiles to further back up his claims.

I thus recommend, if only out of abundance of caution, to assume that the Russian claims of bunker busting capabilities of Oreshnik missiles are very real.

Comments

Postal is conflating potential energy with kinetic energy. You can measure them both in the same units, but kinetic energy has a vector of course. Even if a moving mass has the same theoretical potential energy of some equivalent of TNT, that does not mean it’s affect on target will be even remotely similar. This is so obvious that he must be trying to obfuscate. When a bomb explodes, the energy is released in every direction. When a fast moving mass hits a target, it’s energy is released in the direction of travel. Think of a hypervelocity armor penetrator. To comprehend the affect on target, you need to know far more than the zero evidence he has at his disposal, which is basically a guess at mass and approximate speed. You need to know the composition of the projectile and the nature of the target itself. We know neither. All we do know is that there are underground workshops from Soviet times and the projectiles emitted a bright, incandescing streak that didn’t resemble any projectile seen before. The projectiles hit without any explosion, then about 35 seconds later there is a bright flash, followed by a lesser flash…then darkness. Witnesses told the BBC that explosions, like quakes, continued for three hours. All the actual available evidence suggests that the projectiles penetrated to the underground chambers, there was a large explosion, then it was buried under debris and continued to implode for hours. Everything else is idle nonsense.

Posted by: nook | Dec 6 2024 21:58 utc | 201

@Wlodek #4
The problem with Postol’s analysis is that he is going with what data is available plus his own experience.
To summarize:
1) Any “normal” projectile of “normal” mass (i.e. under the multi-ton weight) that hits the ground at more than Mach 2 basically just gets smashed to pieces. Minimal penetration, etc etc.
This is clearly wrong. Among other things – we already know that Kinzhal missiles penetrate tens of meters into the ground – and the Kinzhal warhead is probably in the 500 kg to 1000 kg range, at most.
2) Postol also referenced a bunch of BDA pics – but these were low credibility as literally every single one was someone’s house. Unless the Yuzhmash factory is built underneath a suburb, I don’t see this pics as being Oreshnik warhead damage as opposed to debris damage whether air defense missile or Oreshnik infrastructure. Furthermore: from the videos – the re-entry vehicles came in batches that were quite close to each other and most of the strikes were on the same location – yet every single picture Postol showed was of a different location with a single smoke source or damaged building.
So Postol is being straightforward, but there are many indicators that he is not correct with his assumptions here. A superhard object that does not disintegrate on impact, which does penetrate, would liberate all of its energy inside the ground. The effects of this are far greater much like the difference for a given amount of explosive laid on the bare ground vs. dug into the ground several meters.
The Black Mountain analysis is better but also speculative.
Ultimately, the biggest damning factor is the lack of pics or video of Yuzhmash after the attack. If the attack was truly so sad as Postol believes – why are we not being treated to pics of happy Ukrainians workers assembling strike missiles?
Why do we not see any impact craters directly, only conveniently outside pics of some person’s house, with or without smoking coming out of it?

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:00 utc | 202

@Gnome Sane #54
You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.
Postol laid out his assumptions, showed his evidence.
I think some of his assumptions are wrong and a lot of his evidence is fake, but either way it is nothing like what you assert.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:03 utc | 203

Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Dec 6 2024 21:58 utc | 202
One big distinction between Kursk and this current Syrian incursion is that the latter has shown much more significant real gains. Homs and Aleppo are major Syrian cities. What has Kursk accomplished? Literally one decent sizes village – Sudzha. Everything else is hamlets and forests.
It was pretty much a total fail after the first week. It became apparent that there would be no further northern progress by end of August, and there hasn’t been anything but loss of territory (other than an occasional counter-attack to regain a hamlet they lost) for the UAF ever since.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 22:10 utc | 204

@Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 6 2024 21:25 utc | 196
Exactly. Therefore the constructive discussion should continue, ignoring the drama queens. As far as I can tell, this thread has exposed both technical issues and obvious disinformation attempts from Postol and others. The frenetic attempts to downplay is to me a confirmation that this was indeed a very significant event. It was also more than a single event, since it is clear that an Oreshnik production line is being established. It is likely a “game changer”.
Based on the observation by Gruff that almost no explosion could be observed on the surface, we have to conclude that close to 100% of the impact energy was released underground, causing earthquake-like shock-waves. In addition, it is clear that the impactors had temperatures of around 4000 Kelvin, and when super-heated mass interacts with ground water/moisture, massive underground steam explosions will follow. So the destructive energy is the sum of kinetic energy and heat energy intercting with ground moisture.
Then, if we assume the targets were underground weapon depots, the effect of underground detonation of such explosives must be added. This is not speculation since there were reports of secondary explosions for a while after.
I doubt there is much left.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 6 2024 22:12 utc | 205

@Ciaran #124
You do realize that the vast majority of nuclear weapons are in the 100 kiloton range, right?
That’s 1 order of magnitude removed.
Secondly, the assumption is of 100 kg projectiles.
Honestly, we have no idea. They could be 500 kg. They could be 1000 kg.
There are many other things which we don’t know, but which Russia/Putin does.
For example: maybe Russia has a new fuel source which is 3 times as much energy as before. That means the fuel part of Oreshnik is 1/3 that of a “normal” Russian missile, which in turn allows much more payload.
Maybe Russian kinetic energy warheads are using some superhard artificial material – in fact, this seems probable. This would allow a far, far more efficient transfer of energy to target because this superhard material would survive impact at Mach 12 – which normal material would not.
This is a key Postol assumption.
Another is that a superhard projectile with a plasma covering may have a very different effect than Postol expects. This is not something we have data for. The asteroids that hit earth are not superhard – they are basically rock or ice. Missiles going merely supersonic don’t have the plasma cover and would not penetrate deeply.
So I think Postol is doing the best he can, with what he knows and has been shown, but GIGO: garbage in, garbage out.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:13 utc | 206

E = mc_squared
That ould velocity has a bit of an influence, I would think.

Posted by: DeGaulle | Dec 6 2024 22:14 utc | 207

@nook #203
Totally wrong.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:15 utc | 208

@ Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Dec 6 2024 21:58 utc | 202
‘This situation will be determined by the logistical pace of the coalition around Asad. I would be especially curious to see how Hizbollah’s crack force and rhe Iraqi PMU’s race to the scene.’
It might be worth scrolling back to my link on the bottom of the previous page:
“This is a trap. The Israelis and their allies are trying to lure us into Syria so they can hit us there without consequences,” a commander told MEE.
“The Coordination Council of the Iraqi Resistance, which consists of representatives of the seven major Shia armed factions, including Kataeb Hezbollah, Asaib Ahl al-Haq and the Badr Organisation, met in Baghdad and “unanimously” rejected the request.”
It seems Assad is on his own for now, and his own army the SAA is cutting deals with anyone offering one rather than fight for him. Most reasonable, informed and humane people are hoping for a change in the dynamic, but so far there a no indications of one.

Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 6 2024 22:18 utc | 209

@Rubiconned #211

It seems Assad is on his own for now, and his own army the SAA is cutting deals with anyone offering one rather than fight for him.

Totally wrong.
Iraqi militias are on the move to Syria.
Russia sent more planes, 10000 drones, more troops and drone operators.
Iran is sending troops also.
Hezbollah is also expected to send troops.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:20 utc | 210

Testing

Posted by: No_Clue | Dec 6 2024 22:21 utc | 211

Back to Postol’s analysis..
E = BS Squared
appears to be the formula he is using.

Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 6 2024 22:21 utc | 212

re: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 21:56 utc | 201
Thanks for the link to “The Missile Will Always Get Through” by Aurelien.
The article is useful and does make the important point that pin-point accuracy is a huge factor that will allow conventional weapons to at least partially replace nuclear weapons in a disarming first strike. However, the concluding paragraph gets to the real non-technical dilemma faced by Russia:
The problem with intimidation is that the victim has to recognise it, and the biggest difficulty of all, I fear, may be that western leaders are incapable of understanding when they are at a severe disadvantage, and acting sensibly.
The “problem” with nuclear deterrence — its Achilles Heel — has always been the requirement that for deterrence to prevail, all parties/leaders must constantly remain rational. That requirement has alwasy seemed quite unrealistic to me.
And today we have ignorant ideologues in charge of nuclear arsenals, fools who believe their own propaganda and are quite convinced that they “can make Russia back down.” Russia has revised its nuclear doctrine in an attempt to make it clear they are SERIOUS, but I don’t get the impression that the “leaders” in the West have gotten the message.
So when Oreshniks land on NATO command centers, will that wake up the West or will they continue to double down? I am not optimistic.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 22:24 utc | 213

Thanks nook-
All we do know is that there are underground workshops from Soviet times and the projectiles emitted a bright, incandescing streak that didn’t resemble any projectile seen before. The projectiles hit without any explosion, then about 35 seconds later there is a bright flash, followed by a lesser flash…then darkness. Witnesses told the BBC that explosions, like quakes, continued for three hours. All the actual available evidence suggests that the projectiles penetrated to the underground chambers, there was a large explosion, then it was buried under debris and continued to implode for hours. Everything else is idle nonsense.
Posted by: nook | Dec 6 2024 21:58 utc | 203
The Postals are lighting only. (did putin just present important data for a western program that may or may not be at some level of development.
Now koreans are sanctified to defend russia …
Rebels in syria ? How well (and deep) is their funding.
Erdogan was already toast at election. Just got an exit visa. So he hopes.
Ukraine has always been about softening russia for the M.E.
yiddish is the primary language in odessa
the world’s largest jewish ‘temple’ is in dnipro.
Only reason israel hasnt been nuked is because the population of copts and (mostly) moslems don’t you think?

Posted by: thebeek | Dec 6 2024 22:28 utc | 214

@
Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:20 utc | 212
‘Totally wrong.
Iraqi militias are on the move to Syria.
Russia sent more planes, 10000 drones, more troops and drone operators.
Iran is sending troops also.
Hezbollah is also expected to send troops.’
Well, i would like to hope so.
But, i provided an article, what are you supporting these claims with? There is literally Iraqi leaders stating the major factions aren’t going. A few hundred is not gonna change anything.
How are Iranians gonna cross the desert when the US air force is already mowing them down with A-10s? The US has hundreds of planes in the Gulf, unlike Russia. Is Iran going to now engage US planes to protect these militias, or is its army gonna openly challenge the US air force in Iraqi territory? Would Iraq’s corrupt and US owned Govt ever even be allowed to allow this?
You know how long it will take to fly in enough tanks and APC’s by air? How are Hezbollah going to get to Syria if all the highways/borders are cut off North and East of Damascus? And if Israel sent an Iranian plane with weapons back before with threat of shooting it down, what makes you think they will let hundreds in now with troops, tanks and anti air?
People who love to talk about ‘realities on the ground’ for Ukraine might want to start considering the ones in Syria also.

Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 6 2024 22:35 utc | 215

@nook 203 / @clue 210
I’d side with nook. When talking about the target area, everybody showed only the factory area of Yuzhmash.
This used to be the factory of the USSR for ICBM – Karlof1 provided recently the interview of a leading fellow of that enterprise. I recommend to have a look at it.
The highlighted area of Yuzhmash has ordinary factory buildings, workshops, densely built. For the production of missiles and rockets you need more than only metallurgy, machinery and electronics – you need fuel and you need warheads. Not in such dense built up area. When you look from that territory towards WestSouthWest you see a strange, rarely built up area mixed with forest. No, not a park. It sports a high security double fence with sand in between. The built up looks like a explosives factory or the like. BTW, open street map calls this territory “object 100”. This is the place with the rocket fuel and the warheads and the underground bunkers – connected to the aforementioned territory. An inertial projectile hitting rocket fuel (no need for additional 02) or explosives in a closed space like a deep bunker would fit with the description of hours of continued explosions. Chances of survival of any personal are small.

Posted by: BG13 | Dec 6 2024 22:38 utc | 216

Thank you, b. I am coming to this post very late, so hadn’t read into your analysis before my previous comments. This kept me awake last night, so I am most grateful to you. I was having serious difficulties with my own, obviously amateurish, problems with Dr. Postol’s change of tune, my own self doubts being considerable. I haven’t yet read comments, but thanks in advance to those here making them.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 6 2024 22:42 utc | 217

I think the response to Oreshnik has occurred in Syria. The situation there is quite dire and without doubt has made Russia and Iran look like fools…or has a deal been done? Let’s also recall Russia never goes against Israel, the one time Lavrov criticized them he was quickly reeled in and an apology issued. Ukraine for Syria and Lebanon? We will see, let’s recall who owns the US, and thus NATO.

Posted by: Organic | Dec 6 2024 22:44 utc | 218

“Militants, jihadists, and HTS” personnel are euphemisms for US/UK mass murderers who at minimum need endless wars to pump up “jobs” numbers of weapons makers. Murdering Syria has required a massive arms trafficking operation now run by KKR and Petraeus in US:
12/14/2018, “Operation “Timber Sycamore” continues,” Voltaire, Thierry Meyssan
“Timber Sycamore” is the most important arms trafficking operation in History. It involves at least 17 governments. The transfer of weapons, meant for jihadist organizations, is carried out by Silk Way Airlines, a Azerbaïdjan public company of cargo planes.
In the week 27 November-2 December 2018, eight of this company’s cargo planes landed at Aden (Yemen), Erbil and Bagdad (Iraq), Beirut (Lebanon), Djibouti (Djibouti), Kabul and Bagram (Afghanistan) and Tripoli (Libya)….
“Operation “Timber Sycamore,” initiated by President Barack Obama was privatized a little before the election of President Donald Trump. It is now coordinated by the investment fund KKR (established by Henry Kravis and whose military activities are led by the former head of the CIA, General David Petraeus).”…
https://www.voltairenet.org/article204373.html

Posted by: susan mullen | Dec 6 2024 22:44 utc | 219

Did VVP state that the version of Oreshnik that was used, i.e. without warhead, has the destruction power of a small tactical nuke? Or that an Oreshink fitted with the appropriate conventional warhead would?

Posted by: scc | Dec 6 2024 22:46 utc | 220

Logging out now, my wonderful and caring government tells me that I am on the fringe of a “red” weather warning for Storm Darragh.
They haven’t told me how many Joules they are expecting to be released…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 6 2024 22:49 utc | 221

per southfront.
the Armed Forces of Ukraine lost 13160 people killed and wounded in all directions, 61 Ukrainian servicemen were captured prisoners. this week..

Posted by: snake | Dec 6 2024 22:50 utc | 222

Now seeing that Lavrov conducted his Carlson interview in English! A remarkably accomplished diplomat. And Ms Zacharova is fluent in Mandarin too! We have amateurs, at best.

Posted by: Ledovik1 | Dec 6 2024 22:51 utc | 223

Sean, the leper Cunt (forgive me canuk for I have sinned)
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 6 2024 19:54 utc | 167
To say the truth is never a sin.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 6 2024 22:55 utc | 224

@scc | Dec 6 2024 22:46 utc | 222

Did VVP state that the version of Oreshnik that was used, i.e. without warhead, has the destruction power of a small tactical nuke? Or that an Oreshink fitted with the appropriate conventional warhead would?

I believe he said that Oreshnik is extremely precise and hits the target at ~10 Mach (2-3 km/s). An inert impactor causes tremendous energy release without any nuclear or conventional explosive warhead. I think VVP said you could combine a handful of such very precise Oreshnik using inert warheads and achieve the equivalent effect of a small tactical nuke, but without any radiation.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 6 2024 22:55 utc | 225

There is actually a word for when the speed at impact is so high that you can just describe it with fluid dynamics: hypervelocity. Gives a big smack, vaporises everything, cannot dig deep. Think space junk and meteorites. Slow down the projectile enough though and use tungsten and stuff and now material strength can keep it together and you can make it dig deep. Now how high did they manage to make that transition limit?

Posted by: tuyzentfloot | Dec 6 2024 22:59 utc | 226

a Russian air strike which eyewitnesses described as unusual, triggering explosions that went on for three hours. (bbc)

A question. Does this imply everyone in central Europe with a seismic array has data about Oreshnik?

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 23:02 utc | 227

here is a full quote below from @ Debsisdead | Dec 6 2024 19:31 utc | 161
i have to agree with debs, william gruff and norwegian on the whole thing.. i only watched one of the videos early on with postol and daniel davis ( i think tom p shared it), if i remember his name correctly… i didn’t watch the one with nima and postol..
debs quote –
“I watched both the before & after videos of Ted Postol with Nima last night and side by side it seems like two different blokes. In the 1st Postol was desperate verging on anger tyrying to get the world , actually amerika but for many amerikans that is the world, to listen to him how urgent it was amerika quit dropping atacams on the RF, cos this new RF weapon was really dangerous.
The 2nd was a different bloke more hesitant to commit to any conclusion and seeming cowed by something.
IMO opinion Postol whois a favourite among a certain class of neoliberal faux peacenik, has been got to and got to hard. I guess they played the old ‘patriotism to amerika’ card, with some emphasis on how his family could be negatively effected.
Many of the posts playing down the effects of Oreshnik here come from posters who have previous as amerikan apologists.
In other words I get the feeling that this is an attempt by the amerikan empire to quiet the horses, to prevent an 80’s style euro panic of the kind that put paid to their euro arms race and lost the MIC a lot of $$$’s.
The way the tide suddenly seemed to turn in a few days tells me that this is just amerika tryin’ to play down the fact that they are backwards technologically, and to stop a bigger problem by attempting to prevent the masses from coming over all pacifist. ie it is all just nonsense amerikan propaganda.”

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 23:23 utc | 228

re: Dec 6 2024 23:23 utc | 230
Acdemics who are considered experts are always worried that they might make a public mistake, which would detract from their reputation.
The noted change in Dr. Postal’s demeanor in the second video may have more to do with him trying to “fix” his initial statements because he had decided they were significantly erroneous.
I think he may still be underestimating the vector nature of momentum and energy via the path of the submunitions, whose ability to destroy deeply buried targets approaches that of tactical nuclear weapons. That may be what Putin was hinting at.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 23:28 utc | 229

@Passerby | Dec 6 2024 23:02 utc | 229
Probably. I know of someone who has a seismometer in his home and that is obviously a noisy place, but he is still able to detect earthquake events far away. By processing the noisy data (similar to digital image processing) it is possible to extract information also for smaller events.
Large geological institutions are obviously far better equipped, but also less likely to share sensitive information.
If you ask the “DuckAssist” AI: Can conventional icbm impacts on earth be detected by far away seismometers? it claims

Yes, the impacts of conventional ICBMs can produce shock waves that may be detected by seismometers located far away, similar to how seismic waves from nuclear tests are monitored. However, the detection may be less pronounced compared to nuclear explosions, which generate more significant seismic activity.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 6 2024 23:29 utc | 230

Reminder that Russia did not invade Ukraine, it intervened into the civil war that has been happening since 2013/2014 in Ukraine after the Ukrainian government was overthrown and a US-puppet one installed. It is a well documented fact. Now, this doesn’t mean that what the Russian government is doing is good, quite the opposite, the Russian government is doing exactly what the Globalists want, which is implementing “Agenda 2030″/”Great Reset”/”Sustainable Development”.

Posted by: KOB | Dec 6 2024 23:38 utc | 231

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 6 2024 23:29 utc | 232

The 23 seismic sensors powering this study are located outside Kyiv and are associated with NORSAR (Norwegian Seismic Array).

https://www.norsar.no/i-fokus/objective-war-zone-monitoring-with-seismic-data-1
This means someone in Norway has the impact data of Oreshnik?

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 23:42 utc | 232

As it now stands, I read a lot about premature hyperbole about how this is such a masterstroke, but we really (so far) only have a tactical surprise assault by a bunch of Jihadi mercenaries backed by the Hegemon, Turkey and regular suspects.
Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Dec 6 2024 21:58 utc | 202

It is indeed checkmate.
If Syria falls, so do many other dominos, catastrophically so for Russia, all the way to the Urals and beyond, and the Axis of Resistance is over.
Remember that back in 2014 Putin did not intervene directly in Ukraine, but he did intervene in Syria. That tells you have important Syria is.
More worryingly, this is yet another in a now very long series of passive defeats.
You have the West + Israel being on the offensive all the time while the other side is looking to make shitty deals and is very rarely making active moves.
On the Russian side, the only active moves so far have been Crimea in 2014 and the start of the SMO in 2022. That’s it. The initiative has been firmly in the West’s hands after that. The “goodwill gestures” circa April 2022, the Kharkov catastrophe in September 2022 (very reminiscent of what is happening now in Syria), Kherson, then the counteroffensive (which failed, but the point is that Russia was still on the backfoot for another six months because of it), then Kursk, and who knows what else is in the works. It is one bold active move after another, and most of them worked.
You don’t see that on the Russian side. There is no serious preparation for total war to this day, Putin spends his time going to various business forums, society is absolutely not on a wartime footing, meanwhile the enemies are encircling Russia rapidly and ever more aggressively. It has been discussed endlessly – making another move on Kiev, even more importantly, making a move along the Polish border to block weapon supplies, or even just a serious operation into Chernigov, Sumy and Kharkov to take pre-war Russian territory out of FPV drone and artillery range. None of those things happened.
Then you see what Israel did over the last 14 months. Genocide in Gaza? Totally unopposed. Then it moved on to Lebanon. Hezbollah was defeated without much resistance, Lebanon is bombed daily. Iran had its president assassinated, and the quickly folded. The mythical Axis of Resistance didn’t put up much resistance at all. All that arsenal of missiles that should have flattened Israel, what happened to it? It stayed in the caves because nobody dared fire it, for whatever reason.
And it was all very, very easy all things considered…

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 23:43 utc | 233

Now seeing that Lavrov conducted his Carlson interview in English! A remarkably accomplished diplomat. And Ms Zacharova is fluent in Mandarin too! We have amateurs, at best.
Posted by: Ledovik1 | Dec 6 2024 22:51 utc | 225

Yeah, let’s focus on the superficialities of mannerisms and language proficiency and ignore the cold hard realities of real-world outcomes.
Putin and Lavrov’s whole elaborate system of semi-treasonous shitty deals and half-assed operations that are never properly finished is unraveling right in front of our eyes, and fools are still praising them for being these great wise statesmen that are so much better than the incompetents in the West.
Yeah, but those incompetents have kicked Russian out of huge swaths of territory on the geopolitical chessboard in just the last three years and they also established it as the new normal that they can bomb it whenever they feel like it, and Russian will just take it.
That is absolutely a remarkable success and exactly how the Kremlin intended it to be, sure…
The way things are going, Putin will be remembered as an even more catastrophic for Russia ruler than Nicholas II when it is all said and done, unless there is a drastic change in course immediately.

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 23:50 utc | 234

The way things are going, Putin will be remembered as an even more catastrophic for Russia ruler than Nicholas II when it is all said and done, unless there is a drastic change in course immediately.
Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 23:50 utc | 236
STOP TALKING FUCKIN BOLLOX!

Posted by: HERMIUS | Dec 6 2024 23:55 utc | 235

here is the daniel davis interview with postol -> from 2 weeks ago in case anyone wants to study postol more closely..
Russia’s New Missile: What it Means for Ukraine & the rest of the World w/Ted Postal, MIT

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 23:55 utc | 236

@ HERMIUS | Dec 6 2024 23:55 utc | 237
the way shadowbanned is going, ANON2022 will be remembered as an even more catastrophic for moa, lol..

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 23:57 utc | 237

Wow, we’re reaching epic levels of delusion here. Guess Syria’s what the NAFOs needed. What’ll be next?
The continuing triumph of hope over experience.

Posted by: TJandTheBear | Dec 6 2024 23:59 utc | 238

ANON2022 Dec 6@2050
Could it be that you’re drinking a lot of fluoridated water, juices and beer? Only explanation I can fathom for mushbrainism.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 0:01 utc | 239

@Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 23:43 utc | 235
This is World War, not Russia against the West. China becomes stronger every day while the US and its Western allies/vassals become weaker, and the full on support of the West for the Zionist genocide has destroyed much of its legitimacy outside the West. For example, the elites of such countries as Indonesia, Malaysia and even Singapore have moved much closer to China in the past year.
The self-harming sanctions and resources wasted on Ukraine have greatly weakened Europe, and that trend will continue. The job of Russia is to gain a full victory in Ukraine which will crush Europe and the legitimacy of its elites. That is job #1 … #n. The job of Iran is to survive the Zionist/Western Middle East onslaught as it watches the West deteriorate and the Israel collapse from within and without. Syria may very well be turned into another bloodbath, but Russia, Iran and China understand their primary imperatives.
Look at EurAsia, Africa, South America … the West is losing day after day. It may thrash around and cause much local agony and the RIC must have the patience to not be drawn into self-defeating local hotspots. Patience is a virtue in this situation. The traitorous Turkey will be dealt with in a time aligned with the RIC strategic goals.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Dec 7 2024 0:07 utc | 240

Susan Mullens Dec6@2244
Thanks for sharing the inner info on the web of bankster controlled nations which have been covertly weaponizing and training the head choppers. Those countries are equally guilty for the devastating chaos in Syria. The forces of resistance are gathering now. It will begin gradually with a holding action and then the broom will begin sweeping.
Meanwhile, perhaps a well-targeted Oreshnik would be a good object-lesson for at least one of those nefarious occupied regimes.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 0:09 utc | 241

The penetration depth of a conventional artillery shell is a function of the following parameters:
Mass, caliber, warhead length, impact velocity, impact angle, and physical properties of the shell and target.
For a conventional artillery shell flying at supersonic impact speed the formula that applies is:
Penetration depth = (Coefficient of the shape of the shell) · (Coefficient of the properties of the target-barrier) · ((Mass/(calibre squared) )· (Arrival velocity of the shell) · (How much the shell deviates from the normal to the target).
The coefficient of the shape of the shell depends on the relationship between the length and the calibre. If the shell has a square or conical tip, it is important only for shells of minimum mass such as bullets.
The coefficient of the properties of the target is fundamental: the reinforced concrete is 11 to 14 times more resistant than common soil and, therefore, it decreases (divides) the penetration capacity of the artillery piece.
The smaller the deviation from the normal, the greater the penetration.
A 120 mm (calibre) artillery piece · 400 mm (length) · 40 kg (mass) · 400 m/s (velocity) can penetrate 2 m of reinforced concrete, depending on the angle of entry.
A 150 mm (calibre) · 1000 mm (length) · 50 kg (mass) · 3000 m/s (velocity) artillery piece can penetrate between 12 and 14 metres of reinforced concrete, if it penetrates at 0 – 10º from the normal.
Furthermore, when a projectile enters the material at hypervelocity, a continuous response shock is produced in the material giving rise to a crater whose diameter depends on the speed and the ground conditions. At 3000 m/s, the crater is 1.5 times wide than deep.
So, without explosive charges and being conservative:
36 impacts in 36 sites 10 meters apart, which have the effect of 10 meters deep and 15 m wide at each point: 15 meters crater diameter · 36 impacts * = approx. 500 m in the surfice, and whatever in the caverns.
A penetrator carries physical (kinetic) energy and produces a response in the environment.

Posted by: No_Clue | Dec 7 2024 0:10 utc | 242

@Passerby | Dec 6 2024 23:42 utc | 234

This means someone in Norway has the impact data of Oreshnik?

That is pretty obvious yes. NORSAR is well known. But I doubt they will share such data if you ask.
They have the seismic data for sure. NATO/US can compare the seismic data with direct on-site inspection. So they know what Oreshnik can do, and cannot claim they don’t.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 7 2024 0:11 utc | 243

Yakoff Ruby conman Dec 6@2235
It is abundantly clear which side you are on. Obviously it is not the side of the Angels…but likely the angles like the $$$$.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 0:16 utc | 244

Posted by: EthanolPaul | Dec 6 2024 14:34 utc | 50
EthanoPaul has it right I believe. The energy of a bullet is very low. Perplexity AI tells me that a 50 cal bullet is about 5 grams of TNT equivalent. Yet the penetrative power is very high and the damage at the point of impact is immense relative to this low energy. Given that, it seems silly to compare the raw energy of an explosion to the directed energy of a ‘bullet’ in the form of a man made meteor.

Posted by: polkadot | Dec 7 2024 0:16 utc | 245

The Beek just cited North Koreans. The propaganda of them fighting in the Kursk salient is purest bullshit. However, I just got an idea…
How bout numerous large Russian transport planes, escorted by Su-37s flying loads of N.K. troops into the Syrian conflict. They could fly directly into Damascus airfields…or if wanting to be in their face…occasional runs to Kheimen airbase…the latter likely needing more base defense. The former would be forwarded to Homs.
Then the media whores could have something genuine to screech about.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 0:23 utc | 246

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 23:50 utc | 236
So putins a failure? What about the rise of BRICS? What about the growing relationship with China? More importantly, what about the success in preventing the kiev gang from joining nato?

Posted by: Ted from Liverpool | Dec 7 2024 0:25 utc | 247

DS map update:
https://deepstatemap.live/en#6/49.4324126/32.0581055
Overall: Very poor day, with only 7.1 kmsq taken. Compare to NOV average pace of 23/day.
S to N:
1. 1.4 kmsq N of Dalnie. (Kurakhove sector.)
2. 2.7 kmsq W of Pustynka. (Pokrovsk sector.)
3. 2.3 kmsq N of Novopusynka. (Pokrovsk sector.)
4. 0.7 kmsq in Toretsk.

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 7 2024 0:29 utc | 248

Ruby-con Dec 6 @2018
>>< ,,,Syrian generals making deals...out of which orfice did you pull that one? If any cutting is being done, yours already got snipped at your Bris when you were the ripe old age of 8 days and yanked away from your mother's loving arms.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 0:29 utc | 249

ANON2022 @236
Realise that once ukraine is dealt with, as it will and you know it, that will be a strategic defeat for the west and their crafty plans. It will embolden china to act on Taiwan as well. Not only is this war draining away the wests resources, its draining away their credibility with all their lies and distortions.

Posted by: Fyador | Dec 7 2024 0:29 utc | 250

ANON2022 @236
Realise that once ukraine is dealt with, as it will and you know it, that will be a strategic defeat for the west and their crafty plans. It will embolden china to act on Taiwan as well. Not only is this war draining away the wests resources, its draining away their credibility with all their lies and distortions.
Posted by: Fyador | Dec 7 2024 0:29 utc | 252
……and not to forget all that luscious fertile land and resources russia now owns oh and the fact that russia is now the main power in the black for as you might know, crimea was what the west really, really, really wanted! Haha!

Posted by: Jesper from London | Dec 7 2024 0:32 utc | 251

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 6 2024 23:29 utc | 232
The 23 seismic sensors powering this study are located outside Kyiv and are associated with NORSAR (Norwegian Seismic Array).
https://www.norsar.no/i-fokus/objective-war-zone-monitoring-with-seismic-data-1
This means someone in Norway has the impact data of Oreshnik?
Posted by: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 23:42 utc | 234
Not really, if it’s the study I saw a couple of days ago it only covers the northern part, near kiev/chernobyl

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 7 2024 0:34 utc | 252

“…success in preventing the kiev gang from joining nato?”
Posted by: Ted from Liverpool | Dec 7 2024 0:25 utc | 249
Kiev has been in NATO in all but name at least ten years, maybe 20. Just as Sweden has been in NATO for over 20 years.

Posted by: acementhead | Dec 7 2024 0:34 utc | 253

“…success in preventing the kiev gang from joining nato?”
Posted by: Ted from Liverpool | Dec 7 2024 0:25 utc | 249
Kiev has been in NATO in all but name at least ten years, maybe 20. Just as Sweden has been in NATO for over 20 years.
Posted by: acementhead | Dec 7 2024 0:34 utc | 255
Not really Mr Acementhead. Otherwise why hasnt article 5 been implemented?

Posted by: HERMIUS | Dec 7 2024 0:38 utc | 254

Is the assault on already wounded Syria actually a form of a Hail Mary pass? Here’s my thinking…the Powers which Were are getting desperate. Their economies are coughing up blood. The Zionist $tate is fast becoming an economic basket-case as more and more nations refuse to trade with them…or even allow them to enter their countries as tourists. Then there are all the internal dissections, to say nothing of a mass of refugees from the Galilee and the Golan.
Topping all of that is the probability that the $enile One in the Tainted Hou$e may feel the need to mass pardon a slew of the major perps…including his own Depends dependent corpus… behind the 2020 stolen election and all the shit that they have pulled including the Covid $cam on behalf of the WEF depopulation agenda and Big Pharma’s genocidal profits.
Think about it. The Collective Wa$te is flying apart like a Rube Goldberg centrifuge. Then there’s the minor matter of the Oreshnik, a game-changer if there ever was one. NON NUCLEAR, baby and incapable of being intercepted some 99% of the time…allowing for the slight possibilities of lucky guesses as to re-entry trajectory. Yeah, their kinetic power, along with incredible levels of maxed heat signatures are currently the Ace of Aces in the arms game.
In response to the aforementioned and other degradations of the puppet regimes of the Evil Ones…they decided to give it their best possible shot and send in heavily armed and trained intermational mercenary Head-Choppers.
The assault on Democratic Syria is a last minute Hail Mary pass.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 0:46 utc | 255

@nook #203
Totally wrong.
Posted by: c1ue | Dec 6 2024 22:15 utc | 210
So which part is totally wrong, the part that agrees with what you have been saying or the other part that also agrees with you?
Take a deep breath and think.

Posted by: nook | Dec 7 2024 0:46 utc | 256

Apart from the obvious psyop merchants, what really smells up the threads here is the tendency for people to jump at conclusions based on how they feel rather than what they know.

Posted by: nook | Dec 7 2024 0:49 utc | 257

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 23:42 utc | 234
Not really, if it’s the study I saw a couple of days ago it only covers the northern part, near kiev/chernobyl
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 7 2024 0:34 utc | 254
Had only browsed your page as it seemed like the article I read some days ago, BUT in your page there is a link to another study of the Kakhovka dam, so yes, probably they can do Dnipro…
https://www.norsar.no/i-fokus/seismiske-signaler-registrert-fra-eksplosjon-ved-kakhovka-demningen-i-ukraina-6-juni
Now, if they attempt to publish and the results are unwanted, they might get blocked.

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 7 2024 0:57 utc | 258

One aspect has been overlooked in all the contributions here: This hazelnut was without warheads, a pure demonstration object made of composite material. Fully equipped, without a nuclear component, it is like a meteorite. The USA has failed to develop the right composite material for it, which is why all US attempts to date have been unsuccessful.
This demonstration was to show two things:
1) Range and speed (was launched 900 km away and announced 30 min in advance so everyone could gather enough data to analyze it). = the whole of Western Europe can be hit with no chance of shooting it down.
2) The energy that these 6 empty

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 7 2024 1:02 utc | 259

Posted by: jure | Dec 6 2024 12:57 utc | 22
Thanks for the answer and update, believed ICBM were still under mach20 and lower.
Faster in hell.

Posted by: Tak-Tik | Dec 7 2024 1:03 utc | 260

Videos of the oreshnik showing it hitting like a meteorite. Watch oreshnik videos and then meteorite videos, it’s a daylight bright flash and emitting light high up in the atmosphere. They studied the holes closely to understand it’s characteristics. The high speed substitutes as explosive and concentrates it. It’s an outgrown of hypersonic missles except it hits at high at impact not just maneuvering at high speed. The khinzal was a prototype

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 7 2024 1:11 utc | 261

@Rubiconned #217
Many people have publicly and repeatedly said so, including Mercouris of Duran.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 7 2024 1:12 utc | 262

Notwithstanding who we are, there’s a basic understanding between humans: we fight because… whatever. But, if you are a fool, I’ll do nothing with you.
I don’t have 80 years like Aristomo or Julian to waste my time in irrelevant questions. My only purpouse is to be consciouss, and it is very clear that trying to learn from you has been a disaster.
What a mess.
Posted by: 100_Years_Old | Dec 7 2024 1:07 utc | 266
😮

Posted by: HERMIUS | Dec 7 2024 1:12 utc | 263

@BG13 #218
It is pretty clear you did not watch the full Postol videos in various places.
The BDA images he showed were not factory buildings. They were clearly just houses.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 7 2024 1:15 utc | 264

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 20:44 utc | 182
Thought the Taiyuan report had concluded that, due to mutual plasticisation, the penetrating capabilities of hypersonics was far less than the physics suggested.

Posted by: Milites | Dec 7 2024 1:17 utc | 265

@No_Clue #244
Interesting information but not relevant to Oreshnik.
The assertion Postol made – which I have not seen anyone dispute – is that normal munitions: artillery, bombs, missiles, even pure tungsten rods – will disintegrate if they strike the ground at more than 2.5 kilometers per second, much less the 3 to 3.5 kilometers per second that the Oreshnik objects actually struck at.
Note the units: kilometers per second. Artillery shells travel in the 1.6 kilometers per second.
What I have repeatedly noted is that the assumption made by Postol is that the Oreshnik warheads are of some normal material up to and including a solid tungsten rod – and that this assumption is very possibly wrong. We have known instances of Russian hypersonic missile warheads penetrating tens of meters into the ground with Mach 10 speeds (Kinzhal final dive).

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 7 2024 1:21 utc | 266

@Perimetr
This is one of the problems that the US has not solved, but the Russians have: composite material

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 7 2024 1:28 utc | 267

One thing notably lacking in all the discussion about the physics of the Oreshnik “test” is the geological composition of the earth at the big facility. It makes a big difference.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 1:29 utc | 268

@nook #260
Postol is not conflating potential energy with kinetic energy. He does not say “potential energy” anywhere in any of the interviews that I watched. Furthermore, he specifically noted (with pictures) that there is evidence that the projectiles are maneuvering based on a carrier with jet nozzles.
Other egregious errors:

When a fast moving mass hits a target, it’s energy is released in the direction of travel.

Some of the energy goes towards disintegrating the mass. Some of it flies off in the form of disintegrated bits of said mass. Some of it is deflected. Your simplistic attempt to assign vectors does not represent reality well at all.

All the actual available evidence suggests that the projectiles penetrated to the underground chambers, there was a large explosion, then it was buried under debris and continued to implode for hours.

Pure speculation. The projectiles, disintegrating on impact would like exactly identical as the videos. Furthermore, explosions can occur for lots of reasons including air defense missiles that missed, hitting something and exploding. Furthermore – there is no evidence of explosions in the videos confirmed to have been of the event. Even the supposed explosion you cite could as easily be a piece of Oreshnik infrastructure, falling as debris, smacking into a gas or propane tank.
I repeat: what Postol said is based on the evidence which he presented in his Daniel Davis talk and elsewhere. I don’t agree with it, but not because of his facial expression or whatever nonsense mannerism, but because he stated outright that all known forms of projectiles, up to and including pure tungsten rods, disintegrate when they hit the ground at more than 2.5 km/s and have little to no penetration.
As I have repeatedly noted: the materials could very well be harder than tungsten. In fact, I would argue they almost certainly have to be because otherwise the plasma they are sheathed in would certainly soften, if not melt a pure tungsten rod.
Secondly, tungsten rods don’t generate much of a plasma outline around them because they are aerodynamically pretty efficient. What if the plasma itself makes a difference? We don’t know but the Russians certainly do – because they have been playing around with this type of thing for years.
I also noted, elsewhere, that the one piece of actual evidence of real damage is the complete lack of any form of “proof of life” for the factory. No pictures or video of it operating, workers going in or out, pictures of small craters caused by disintegrating projectiles.
That is not proof but is certainly lack of proof of Oreshnik being the nothingburger that Postol is presently concluding. But again, his conclusions are not pulled out of his ass or arbitrarily: he is very clear what his assumptions and reasonable guesses and experienced guesses are.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 7 2024 1:37 utc | 269

If the facility that was hit by Oreshnik was underlain by bedrock of granite or gneiss, for example, the idea that these things penetrarated to a depth of 200m is utterly ridiculous. But if it is all just silty soil or weakly consolidated shale, then maybe it is possible (bit even then I doubt 200 m). The Russians know exactly the geology of the facility because they (USSR) built it.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 1:42 utc | 270

One thing notably lacking in all the discussion about the physics of the Oreshnik “test” is the geological composition of the earth at the big facility. It makes a big difference.
Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 1:29 utc | 275
Not really , if a rod should be like sabot KE killers in tanks, fluid dynamic and penetration mostly on difference of density between rod and target
DU more likely than tungsten, not any evil issues , practical , self sharpens and burns. Double whammy

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 7 2024 1:43 utc | 271

the way shadowbanned is going, ANON2022 will be remembered as an even more catastrophic for moa, lol..
Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 23:57 utc | 239

Are they not the same person? To me, it is a tell that 5 years on, both are devout Jabberwocky Branch Covidian worshippers of their saviour, ‘the safe and effective’. Even in a country known for our most gullible sheeple, I have not met such people in real life in years, such devout defenders of The Message either work for the same employer or are the same person.

Posted by: Drifter | Dec 7 2024 1:49 utc | 272

I also want to disabuse a subconscious assumption that it seems most people are making: why there is a plasma wreath around hypersonic missiles.
Yes, at hypersonic speeds, the sheer force of passage will cause ionization hence plasma. But you don’t see massive plasma wreaths around most missiles including ICBM warheads…why?
Consider the SpaceX rockets. They achieve easily mach 8+ speeds, are enormous, but don’t have plasma sheaths around them. Why?
It is because ICBM warheads and missiles are basically intended to be streamlined precisely to minimize drag/plasma formation – so are ballistic and rocket motor driven respectively, but the Russian hypersonics are maneuvering using supersonic/hypersonic flight physics.
Think about this for a minute.
It is one thing to put shielding on a missile to keep it intact until it hits the target – it is something totally different to build a missile with shielding and flight characteristics to enable hypersonic flight maneuvering.
The plasma is a design choice outcome of the maneuverability.
This is why it is difficult to create hypersonic missiles. It is not the speed – the West already has THAAD interceptors that go Mach 8. The West has tested planes that go almost Mach 10 – the X43.
The difficulty starts with range: what kind of fuel do you need to get up to that speed?
Then you have the materials/design needed to be able to survive at that speed.
Then you have maneuvering capability: how to do maneuver something going Mach 10 to Mach 12?
Then you have the need to be able to see outside the plasma wreath (induced from maneuvering capability) to actually be able to steer onto target.
Each of these are seriously hard core problems. Russia has solved all of them for the Kinzhal, the Zircon, the Oreshnik.
The Oreshnik warheads are a further evolution on top. Maybe it is materials, maybe it is some fancy engineering tricks, maybe other things or a combination. Whatever – it seems very clear to me that the “hypersonic gap” between Russia (and China) and the West is growing faster every day.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 7 2024 1:57 utc | 273

I never said postal used the term potential energy, but to refer to a tnt equivalent, that is exactly what he is talking about. The idea that some energy goes into breaking apart the projectile is true only in as much as it breaks apart. This is what his whole argument turns on and it is an argument from ignorance. He is clearly clueless as to the nature of the projectile both in substance and structure. The explosion that followed after 35 seconds originated from the ground, and you can see where it was located as it faded. Pictures of maneuvering jets?! That’s not that discredited picture shot over Kazakhstan is it? I ask because the actual strike images show streaks descending from a low cloud cover in a fraction of a second. No obvious movement except down, because it was already almost on the ground when it exits the cloud bank. I realize he may not have intended it, but his analysis comes across as a weak cope.

Posted by: nook | Dec 7 2024 2:01 utc | 274

Anyone who just ignores the geological composition of the substrate at the point of attack of this type of weapon can be written off as not competent.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 2:03 utc | 275

@naBisco – I don’t know where these 200 m” come from, I just read something about the factory having a 3-story basement, so that would be 15 – 20 m of underground manufacturing facilities, and the video from the observation drone shows a whole series of smaller explosions after the 6 projectiles had hit and the 6 main explosions had passed.

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 7 2024 2:05 utc | 276

The Oreshnik.
Suppose a 800 kg payload (that of the RS-26) and that the entire payload impacts targets at 3.4 km/s. Then
the energy released is
E = 1/2 x 800 x (3,400 m/s)^2 = 400 * 11,560,000 = 4,624 MJ.
Now 1 ton of TNT = 4,184 MJ, so
E = 4,624/4,184 = 1.105 tons of TNT
So, the Oreshnik delivers the equivalent of 1.105 tons of TNT
the FAB-3000 bomb delivers the equivalent of 1.4 tons of TNT
the Hiroshima bomb was about 15,000 tons of TNT
If the Oreshnik carried a nuclear warhead the energy released may be 1,000,000 tons of TNT (i.e., one megaton).
The Oreshnik is definitely a bunker buster (basically useless against surface facilities).
I have no checked this too carefully, so is there any disagreement with the above?

Posted by: oreshnik | Dec 7 2024 2:06 utc | 277

“It seems that Russia’s message has finally reached its recipient.”
Oh I don’t think that’s it at all if one is thinking there recipient was the overall conflict instigators or anyone in Ukraine just because of the Oreshnik. More simply I think 4 launchers, and a large depot were wiped out in the 3 days that followed that no doubt put at least a temporary strain on capability or risk of use for a week or so. Then what followed allegedly, explains it far more than anything else:
Dec1:

“Our source in the OP reported that Yermak’s trip to the US was pointless and did not achieve its goals, since all prominent representatives of Trump’s team refused to meet with the Head of the OP. We were again advised to stop the escalation and not launch missile strikes on Russian territory in order to establish communication with the new US President.” https://t.me/rezident_ua/25037
Yermak’s failed mission to the US and a new ultimatum from the Kremlin, these are the brief results of the week for Ukraine. Trump’s team once again pointed out to the Head of the OP the need to stop escalating the war and stop launching missile strikes on Russia, which greatly reduces the negotiating positions of Zelensky, who personally gives the order for the attacks. Now Bankova has a serious problem of how to increase the level of escalation in the war, but at the same time not spoil relations with Trump and preserve Ukraine’s energy infrastructure.https://t.me/rezident_ua/25042

Dec 4th:

Our source in the OP reported that Yermak was forced to fly to the US again, since during his first trip he was given drafts from Trump’s team for approval by Zelensky. The delegation was not formed just like that, Yermak will be accompanied by Defense Minister Umerov and Economy Minister Sviridenko, who must report on the assistance received. Our source clarifies that the temporary pause in missile strikes on Russian territory is due to the condition of Trump’s team to stop the escalation.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/25037

Dec 5th (Legitimniy)

– Our source reports that the results of Yermak’s negotiations with Trump’s team in the US can be found out by a simple fact. If, in two or three weeks, Ukraine does not try to strike deep into Russia with Western missiles again, then Yermak has partially accepted the Trumpists’ proposal on the Ukrainian crisis. If ZeYermak goes for raising the stakes, then the negotiations have failed and the office guys will implement their favorite game of creating circumstances for Trump that will make it difficult for him to implement his peace initiative. Bankova will go into opposition to Trump.
– Our source reports that Yermak was hinted in the US that if they continue to challenge Trump and flirt with the Democrats, and especially leak information about the negotiations, as in 2020, then Trump may declare that he does not consider Zelensky a legitimate president, since his term of office has expired, as well as the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, whose term of legitimacy has also expired.
This will be a checkmate for Zelensky. Of course, this may be a bluff by representatives of the “Trump team”, who do not yet have any powers, but it may not be a bluff. Whether Zelensky will want to go all-in here is a moot point. We are watching.
https://t.me/legitimniy/19137 https://t.me/legitimniy/19138

Dec 6th:

Our source in the OP reported that Zelensky is not going to negotiate with the Kremlin, and all statements were made specifically to start communication with Trump’s team. Andriy Yermak has prepared a strategy according to which it is necessary to provoke Putin so that he will be the first to leave the negotiation process and Trump will be forced to increase financial/military aid to Ukraine. This is precisely what is behind the pause in missile strikes on Russian territory, since Ukraine was advised to reduce the escalation.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/25083

Anyone is of course welcome to discount as much as they like ‘Resident’ or ‘legitimty’ who post similar accounts to what’s been going down on that front, but more often than not in my experience in the last two or so years their accounts and leaks of internal UA machinations in this and other regards have been born out, if not exactly than directionally. The TLDR is, Ukr was told by people in the incoming administration, that if his man wanted a seat at the table, that for now they need to stop escalating and Yermak ‘for now’ has agreed. How long ‘for now’ lasts is anyone’s guess, particularly so given other games being played by all players outside Ukr theater.

Posted by: knighthawk | Dec 7 2024 2:09 utc | 278

The most pertinent question about Trump and all his “peace dealings” I have read/heard — which nobody seems to consider — is what happens after Trump’s 4 years?
Russia, as a state, and the Russians themselves, *DO NOT WANT* any kind of bullshit Minsk 3.
What happens if/when the Dems return to Washington?
Putin wants all this US global meddling bullshit sorted once and for all.
Fight on Russia till the monster is defeated.

Posted by: Just a Voice | Dec 7 2024 2:32 utc | 280

“U.S. Has Stopped Ukrainian ATACMS Strikes On Russia”
Seems like premature ejaculation.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 2:34 utc | 281

An now here we go again with another super weapon that is alleged to be a game changer. The Oreshniks. Only this time it is us building up a Russian weapon instead of one of our new wonder weapons when we introduce it into Ukraine.
A little conservation of energy consideration. On impact it can not possibly release more energy than the amount of energy produced by the chemical energy of the device that accelerates it. Thus supposing it is in the same category as a nuke is nonsense, unless it is a really small, downright tiny nuclear device.
What the Oreshniks is actually is a weapon of intimidation directed not at troops in the field but the command staff. Being hyperbolic it can’t be intercepted. Being guided it can hit a precise spot. Plus the energy it releases is local and much of it directed down. Each new little warhead produces another shock wave that will have a cumulative effect on even a hardened bunker that is deep underground. It is a remarkably effective bunker buster with enough residual energy to kill anybody on the surface in the immediate area.
No surprise here if the commanders who send other men to their deaths by the thousands have less enthusiasm for dying themselves. That may well be why they quit sending missiles into Russia. The big shot commanders don’t actually want to put their precious selves at risk. If so, perhaps it can effect the outcome.

Posted by: Jmaas | Dec 7 2024 2:40 utc | 282

Posted by: Jmaas | Dec 7 2024 2:40 utc | 297
Very Good post Mr Jmaas. 👏

Posted by: HERMIUS | Dec 7 2024 2:44 utc | 283

Ya dejen de especular sobre este nuevo misil. me infarta tantos comentarios. Ni siquiera se sabe que tanto fue el daño, espero que mucho. Pero ya han escrito tanto en este y en todos los foros que me harte de especulacion.
Cuando se tengan datos reales, seran bienvenidos.

Posted by: Manuel V | Dec 7 2024 2:50 utc | 284

Summary.
The Oreshnik delivers the equivalent of 1.105 tons of TNT
The FAB-3000 bomb delivers the equivalent of 1.4 tons of TNT
The Oreshnik is a bunker buster (basically useless against surface facilities).

Posted by: oreshnik | Dec 7 2024 2:58 utc | 285

Oreshnik is bad-ass but it doesn’t in any way counter nukes. Not in an existential war.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 3:02 utc | 286

Think big picture. Think global financial system. Think how strong is materialism for a life of limited length. Think how easy it was to corrupt Syrians to completely fold and not care. Think how many Syrians have emigrated to “the west” in recent years. The big talk about “Axis of Resistance” seems hollow.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 3:12 utc | 287

Posted by: 100_Years_Old | Dec 7 2024 3:17 utc | 305
Please just go away with your illiterate nonsense.

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 3:22 utc | 288

More missile physics than I ever wanted to double check on. Thanks -b for taking us into another universe, even for a while.
I am with karlof1, if there were something to show it would have been shown. If the BBC says three hours worth of fire and brimstone, good enough.
Bringing some forty body bags back to the US definitely delivers a message. Phone calls between generals are a good thing.
Syria may be a lost cause. Lots of speculation to go around.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Dec 7 2024 3:32 utc | 289

The Unholy Alliance – US/Israel/Turkey – delivered their own version of ‘oreshnik’ to show Russia that ‘soft’ power of greenbacks, intrigue, deception, spycraft, can deliver a massive shock and become a ‘gamechanger’ in the ME. Cui bono that is the key question. Let’s hope that Alastair Crooke analysis on the Palestine thread is correct.
https://strategic-culture.su/news/2024/12/06/erdogan-idlib-shock-shadows-kursk/
thanks to
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2024/12/palestine-open-thread-2024-292/comments/page/3/#comments
JB | Dec 6 2024 21:54 utc | 249

Posted by: fanto | Dec 7 2024 3:33 utc | 290

On impact it can not possibly release more energy than the amount of energy produced by the chemical energy of the device that accelerates it.
Posted by: Jmaas | Dec 7 2024 2:40 utc | 297
Jezzuz. Never heard of acceleration due to gravity?
“Being hyperbolic it can’t be intercepted”.
Jeezuz. Did you mean hypersonic?
Or have you not heard of missile defence … which are shooting down hyperbolic missiles every day.
You presume to know a lot about something which noone else outside of the MoD knows anything much about.

Posted by: Wtf | Dec 7 2024 3:38 utc | 291

“Jezzuz. Never heard of acceleration due to gravity?”
Posted by: Wtf | Dec 7 2024 3:38 utc | 313
Careful, you belligerent jackass. You seem to have forgotten that lifting it up to heights to use gravity as an acceleration force required the use of chemical energy from the rockets. Think!

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 3:45 utc | 292

Sam Dec 7 @321
Sam what am wallows in Spam.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 3:56 utc | 293

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 1:42 utc | 278
The Russians know exactly the geology of the facility because they (USSR) built it.
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 7 2024 1:43 utc | 279
Not really , if a rod should be like sabot KE killers in tanks, fluid dynamic and penetration mostly on difference of density between rod and target
DU more likely than tungsten, not any evil issues , practical , self sharpens and burns. Double whammy
Very good and pertinent posts by both posters here.
Since we have (been) entertained by a lot of whacko ideas here (no dearth rays yet, but..) here is my offering. I have no idea if there is anything in it, but IMO it is no more crazy than others I’ve read here–
If the geology of the area underlying the Dnipro facilities was fractured and prone to seismic instability, the RF would have known the details (thank you naBisco), and if they knew they had very good guidance for their penetrators (tungsten, depleted uranium, or perhaps kryptonite), then directing Orishnik to a sensitive geological area in order to induce a mini earthquake seems like a smart idea. Of course that would depend on the fortuitous circumstances of the target facility being in close enough proximity to the geologically unstable area(s).
Science fiction?? I don’t know and I don’t think anyone else does (except possibly some RF planners) either.

Posted by: Barrel Brown | Dec 7 2024 3:56 utc | 294

naBisco Dec 7 @312
Materialism and the rationalism on steroids which propels it will pass within a short span of years as we emerge from the 6,000 year cycle of Kali Yuga…the Epoch of devolution, dystopia, deracination, degradation, destruction and ultimately dissolution. After a couple hundred years in the sign of Capricorn, Pluto, within the last fortnight slipped into Aquarius in conjunction with Uranus.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 4:02 utc | 295

naBisco Pearl Harbor Day @302
Of course Oreshnik is small potatoes in an out and out existential humanity destroying war. However, by not crossing the nuke line…a red one for the entire planet…that PARTICULAR singularity amongst Russia’s stock of massive hypersonic devices…has sufficient kinetic power to destroy underground hidden-holes of every known description…at least the manmade ones.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 7 2024 4:15 utc | 296

IF (that’s a big if) Oreshnik missile can’t take a heavy payload as the American said, that opens up new exciting opportunities to use it to disperse millions of mines, cluster munitions and bomblets. Possibly small drones too. It can be a surface attack weapon that can strike deep into NATO territory, US bases in the Middle East, US aircraft carrier battle groups and military sea ports with devastating effects.

Posted by: Jason | Dec 7 2024 4:33 utc | 297

Posted by: naBisco | Dec 7 2024 3:45 utc | 314
My point was that I’m sure it ain’t that simplistic. There’s fuel (energy) to go up; the carrier explodes/accelerates into 6; they each explode/accelerate into 6; then you have gravity acting upon the 36; and if there’s a warhead for ground level, that’s all extra eventual kinetic energy on top of the primary lift energy and the potential energy in subsequent fuels. It’s not just throw a rock up = its energy coming down. But then I’m no rocket scientist like you. Also directed energy (eg, spikes, cones) can do much more damage than blobs hitting the ground — that is the outcome effect of harvesting that energy. So simplistic theories and observations always fail in real situations. That’s my beef … so many high school scientists here, myself included.

Posted by: Wtf | Dec 7 2024 4:39 utc | 298

Ukraine has always been about softening russia for the M.E.
yiddish is the primary language in Odessa
the world’s largest jewish ‘temple’ is in dnipro.
Posted by: thebeek | Dec 6 2024 22:28 utc | 216
The very powerful Jewish Lubavitcher group has its world headquarters in Dnipro.
The Orthodox, Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic rabbi Berel Lazar is a personnel friend of Putin. Berel Lazar has also turned up as a guest at the White House. He also appears to have been a friend of Gorbachev.

Established in 1794, Odessa was captured by Admiral de Ribas from the Turks for Empress Catherine II of Russia. The city developed rapidly during the nineteenth century, largely due to the arrival of colonists from “New Russia”. It soon became a melting pot of Russians, French, Armenians, Poles, Greeks, Moldavians, and Jews. Forbidden to reside in Saint Petersburg, Moscow or Kiev, Jews poured into the southern Russian cities of Odessa and Nikolayev, eventually constituting a third of their population before the Second World War. Even today, Odessa still bears their mark.
Before the war, 350,000 Jews lived in Odessa. They (religious Jews?) number no more than 50,000 today.
https://jguideeurope.org/en/region/ukraine/from-kiev-to-the-black-sea/odessa/

Posted by: oreshnik | Dec 7 2024 4:41 utc | 299

“So a single Oreshnik would be 50 kt, it is as powerful as a small nuke. So it also means every submunition has a 1.38 KT yield.“
That’s just silly. The inert payload will have less kinetic energy than the energy that was in the chemical propellant used to accelerate it. Unless the launch weight is ~100,000 tons that’s unlikely. Saramat, for example,has a launch weight of about 200 tons, 1/500 of that. Or, to a rough order of magnitude you’d need 100 to equal the energy of a 10kt tactical nuke.
But the raw energy does not necessarily indicate the destructive power over a given area because of the distribution and other factors and it’s possible the ratio is much lower, like 5 or 10. And yes, that’s expensive, but compared to what?

Posted by: Billb | Dec 7 2024 4:41 utc | 300