Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 6, 2024
U.S. Has Stopped Ukrainian ATACMS Strikes On Russia

As further ATACMS strikes on Russia seem to have stopped this timeline is of interest.

November 18:

U.S. allows Ukraine to use ATACMS missiles against targets within Russia:

The reversal of policy, nearly 1,000 days since Russia started its full-scale invasion on Ukraine, comes largely in response to Russia's deployment of North Korean troops to supplement its forces, a development that has caused alarm in Washington and Kyiv, a U.S. official and a source familiar with the decision told Reuters.

[Note: There is no evidence that any North Korean troops were deployed by Russia anywhere near Ukraine.]

November 19 and November 20/21:

Ukraine hits an ammunition depot in Russia's Bryansk Oblast, far from any relevant frontline, as well as military facilities in Russia's Kursk oblast:

On November 19, six ATACMS tactical ballistic missiles produced by the United States, and on November 21, during a combined missile assault involving British Storm Shadow systems and HIMARS systems produced by the US, attacked military facilities inside the Russian Federation in the Bryansk and Kursk regions.

The fire at the ammunition depot in the Bryansk Region, caused by the debris of ATACMS missiles, was extinguished without casualties or significant damage. In the Kursk Region, the attack targeted one of the command posts of our group North. Regrettably, the attack and the subsequent air defence battle resulted in casualties, both fatalities and injuries, among the perimeter security units and servicing staff.

November 21:

Russia fires a new missile with hypersonic kinetic warheads at a military industrial complex in Dnipro:

In response to the deployment of American and British long-range weapons, on November 21, the Russian Armed Forces delivered a combined strike on a facility within Ukraine’s defence industrial complex. In field conditions, we also carried out tests of one of Russia’s latest medium-range missile systems – in this case, carrying a non-nuclear hypersonic ballistic missile that our engineers named Oreshnik. The tests were successful, achieving the intended objective of the launch. In the city of Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine, one of the largest and most famous industrial complexes from the Soviet Union era, which continues to produce missiles and other armaments, was hit.

November 23 and 25:

Ukraine continues with ATACMS strikes against targets within Russia:

On 23 November, the enemy fired five U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles at a position of an S-400 anti-aircraft battalion near Lotarevka (37 kilometres north-west of Kursk).

During a surface-to-air battle, a Pantsir AAMG crew protecting the battalion destroyed three ATACMS missiles, and two hit their intended targets.

As a result of the strike, a radar was damaged. There are casualties among personnel.

On 25 November, the Kiev regime delivered one more strike by eight ATACMS operational-tactical missiles at the Kursk-Vostochny airfield (near Khalino). Seven missile were shot down by S-400 SAM and Pantsir AAMG systems, one missile hit the assigned target. Two servicemen were lightly wounded and infrastructure objects sustained minor damage by missile debris.

After investigating the attacked sites it was confirmed that the AFU delivered strikes by U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles.

November 27:

The Russian Gen. Valery Gerasimov has a phone call with Gen. CQ Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:

Gen. Valery Gerasimov initiated last Wednesday's call with Gen. CQ Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to provide him with that warning and to also discuss Ukraine and how to avoid miscalculation between the U.S. and Russia about that ongoing conflict.

November 28:

Putin announces the response to the November 23/25 strikes:

Last night, we conducted a comprehensive strike utilising 90 missiles of these classes and 100 drones, successfully hitting 17 targets. These included military installations, defence industry sites, and their support infrastructure. I want to emphasise once again that these strikes were carried out in response to the continued attacks on Russian territory using American ATACMS missiles. As I have repeatedly stated, such actions will always elicit a response.

It seems that Russia's message has finally reached its recipient.

December 5/6:

In another strike on Russia Ukraine has used fix wing UAVs but no ATACMS:

Last night, the Russian Armed Forces have foiled another attempt by the Kiev regime to launch a terrorist attack using a fixed-wing UAV against the facilities in the Russian Federation.

Thirty three Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles were intercepted by alerted air defence systems over Kursk region. Fourteen UAVs were shot down over the territory of Voronezh region, eleven over Kursk region, seven over Belgorod region, and one over the Crimean Republic.

Moreover, the naval aviation of the Black Sea Fleet destroyed two uncrewed surface vehicles moving to the Crimean peninsula in waters of the Black Sea.

Since Gerasimov's phone call (and Putin's speech) there have been NO reports of any further ATACMS (or Storm Shadow) strikes on Russia!

During his announcement of the latest strikes Putin also described the effects of the hypersonic missile strike:

The system deploys dozens of homing warheads that strike the target at a velocity of Mach 10, equivalent to approximately three kilometres per second. The temperature of the impact elements reaches 4,000 degrees Celsius – nearing the surface temperature of the sun, which is around 5,500–6,000 degrees.

Consequently, everything within the explosion’s epicentre is reduced to fractions, elementary particles, essentially turning to dust. The missile is capable of destroying even heavily fortified structures and those located at significant depths.

During several interviews in recent days MIT Prof. Ted Postol disagreed (vid) with Putin's claim. Postol describes the Oreshnik impacts as shallow surface explosions with the force of about 1.5 times the weight equivalent in TNT explosives. With an estimated warhead weight of 100 kilogram the impact of each of the Oreshnik's 36 warheads would be no bigger than a regular small bomb. This would make them mostly useless against anything but large area surface targets.

I am doubtful that Postol got this right:

  • Putin is usually extraordinary well informed and not in the habit of making false claims. If he states that Oreshnik warheads have deep penetration capabilities then they are likely to have these.
  • It would make little to no sense for the Russian's to demonstrate the Oreshnik on hardened targets, as the bunkers of the Yuzhmash machine plant are, if it does not have significant effects on these. It would be a bluff that could and would be immediately called by the Pentagon specialist inspecting the localities and observing the effects.
  • The U.S. is taking the strike seriously. It has reacted by stopping support for further Ukrainian ATACMS strikes on Russia.

Weapon experts like Postol have little experience with hypersonic projectiles which impact at 10 times the speed of sound. I believe that his assessment is sincere. He also applies the necessary caveats. But I doubt that he, like most other experts, has sufficient experience with the effects of dart like hypersonic projectiles to further back up his claims.

I thus recommend, if only out of abundance of caution, to assume that the Russian claims of bunker busting capabilities of Oreshnik missiles are very real.

Comments

Siria can survive because the interest of Lebanon, Irak and palestinos and irán not to be cutted off from supplies, they ought to involve themselves, is Lifer or death of the project they defend

Posted by: María Vaz | Dec 6 2024 16:21 utc | 101

I wouldn’t call that a particulary impressive result.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 13:10 utc | 25

If Russia cured cancer you would say the same thing though wouldn’t you? In several years of reading your posts, I, like any other reasonable person, have long ago concluded you’re an ideologue and propagandist.
What’s really impressive is Maericas weaponization of stupidity. How’s that working out?

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Dec 6 2024 16:21 utc | 102

f Russia cured cancer you would say the same thing though wouldn’t you? In several years of reading your posts, I, like any other reasonable person, have long ago concluded you’re an ideologue and propagandist.
What’s really impressive is Maericas weaponization of stupidity. How’s that working out?
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Dec 6 2024 16:21 utc | 102
.
.
Top statement about this troll

Posted by: ossi | Dec 6 2024 16:27 utc | 103

Posted by: canuck | Dec 6 2024 15:50 utc | 85
Of course he knows, but this time unlike the Iranian strike on Israel where he came up with a more correct analysis this time there was pressure on him…You can see it in his face, espacially in the Davis Video…He had to bullshitting the audiance…

Posted by: Larsbo | Dec 6 2024 16:27 utc | 104

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Dec 6 2024 14:56 utc | 56
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 6 2024 16:16 utc | 98
I remember a report, that a Russian missile hit the foreign attack’ems operators located in Kharkov.
At some point the West will run out of operators willing to die in Ukraine.

Posted by: MorePain4Cakes | Dec 6 2024 16:28 utc | 105

Deir Ezzor now lost also…
https://www.rt.com/news/608857-us-backed-militants-syria-city/
This is horrific. Syria is falling by the hour. Literally.

Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 6 2024 16:32 utc | 106

I see absolutely no evidence of the west being shook.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 15:29 utc | 70
What would you expect to see? White flag flying from the White House? Can you see any US politician getting reelected by telling the electorate that despite spending trillions over decades on “defence” they were mated by a “gas station with nukes”?

Posted by: HB_Norica | Dec 6 2024 16:33 utc | 107

I see absolutely no evidence of the west being shook.
Micron | Dec 6 2024 15:29 utc | 70

Yes you do – the west’s muted response.

Posted by: hh | Dec 6 2024 16:38 utc | 108

“Now it’s either Homs holds, or Assad is out, and with the Russians are out of the Mediterranean.”
It’s okay. Climate change is melting all the ice. The Med is everywhere soon.

Posted by: LindaJ | Dec 6 2024 16:38 utc | 109

If Russia cured cancer you would say the same thing though wouldn’t you? In several years of reading your posts, I, like any other reasonable person, have long ago concluded you’re an ideologue and propagandist.

If Russia cured cancer I would actually praise it.
But allow me not to celebrate “not being hit by ATACMS (but drones ok somehow) within my internationally recognized borders” as a kind of significant victory. Or maybe you think it is the case ?

What’s really impressive is Maericas weaponization of stupidity. How’s that working out?
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Dec 6 2024 16:21 utc | 102

Quite well. Russia is being kicked out of the Middle East with a minimal investment in the space of two weeks. I mean that’s what we would have liked to see Russia doing in Ukraine in 2022.

Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 16:41 utc | 110

What would you expect to see? White flag flying from the White House? Can you see any US politician getting reelected by telling the electorate that despite spending trillions over decades on “defence” they were mated by a “gas station with nukes”?
Posted by: HB_Norica | Dec 6 2024 16:33 utc | 107

I would expect to see Blinken calling Lavrov, Kaja Kallas sending a delegation to Moscow, serious openings being made for starting peace negotiations. Oh, and also not seeing the Empire launching the final death blow to Syria, for starters…
I did not really get your point about US politicians. I mean, when you’re really scared, shook to the core and fearing for your life, you do not really think about the opinion of your voters at the next election. You just try to negotiate no matter what.

Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 16:43 utc | 111

could folks please consider ignoring some of these posters?? spare the board, lol..

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 16:46 utc | 112

” At mach 24, that of an ICBM, it would be 8 times that.”
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Dec 6 2024 12:03 utc | 10
Mach 24 is not eight times more energy per kg of the weapon than Mach 3, it is 64 times more. E=(1/2)*M*V^2

Posted by: Biochar | Dec 6 2024 12:34 utc | 15
E=(1/2)*M*V^2
at Mach 24 it’s
24^2/3^2 = 572/9 = 63.555
times more energy per kg of the weapon than Mach 3
at Mach 11 it’s
11^2/3^2 = 121/9 = 13.444
times more energy per kg of the weapon than Mach 3
if “at about mach 3 the kinetic energy delivered is equivalent to its weight in tnt”
then at about mach 11 the kinetic energy delivered is equivalent to about 13 times its weight in tnt.

Posted by: git | Dec 6 2024 16:49 utc | 113

Posted by: Micron |
.
.
.
Tip
Ignore his posts and that’s it…of course he’ll appear under different names, but what does it matter…

Posted by: ossi | Dec 6 2024 16:51 utc | 114

I see absolutely no evidence of the west being shook.
Micron | Dec 6 2024 15:29 utc | 70
Mr Macron. Its funny how the missiles deep into russia stopped, you must agree.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Dec 6 2024 16:54 utc | 115

what i really hate right now is china’s disinterest.
China was the one who brought syria back into the arab league.
Now, IMHO, it should have the precise duty to send 200,000 troops and equipment to help assad and Russia.
And kick all the invaders out of syria. ALL OF THEM.
It’s time for china to step up and get involved in what will soon be the war of taiwan, because if they don’t conquer it, then the usa will provoke them to do it; and it will be much worse, because the usa will be ready to fight better than now.

Posted by: kamma43muri | Dec 6 2024 16:58 utc | 116

Norwegian | Dec 6 2024 16:11 utc | 96–
I’ve made available “Lavrov-Carlson Interview: Official English Transcript from MFA”.
//////////////////////////////////
Curious set of trolls trying to spin everything. My assessment of the interview for those wanting to know can be read at my substack.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:01 utc | 117

Quite well. Russia is being kicked out of the Middle East with a minimal investment in the space of two weeks. I mean that’s what we would have liked to see Russia doing in Ukraine in 2022.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 16:41 utc | 110

It’s so very like a NAFO type to declare victory loudly whilst the outcome is uncertain. I called you an ideologue..which is undeniable. A propagandist? It depends on if you believe the tripe you post. This isn’t a one off, your posts are invariably critical of Russia while apparently ignoring all other factors. I like reading people who reason, not those who promulgate a viewpoint.
Maybe you get paid per post though. Do tell us more about how the Russians have been ‘kicked out of the Middle East in 2 weeks’. I’m sure those words will be comforting to the jihadists having pieces of themselves spread all over the desert by the RAF. I mean, those Russian planes arent not really there, they’ve been kicked out. They’re like the fabled elves of North Korea in Kursk.
I suppose those HTS bandits can pack in it and head back to Turkey. Micron has declared Mission Accomplished.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Dec 6 2024 17:06 utc | 118

While the Oreshnik represents a lethal new weaponry that appears to be particularly suited to destroying hardened underground bunkers, its destructive power is several orders of magnitude less than that of a very low-yield nuclear weapon e.g. the W76-2 (5 to 7 kiloton warhead).
This contradicts Putin’s statement that “Military and technical experts note that when used in a concentrated, massive strike – using several Oreshnik missiles simultaneously – the resulting impact is comparable in power to that of a nuclear weapon.
Further use of the Oreshnik on targets that cannot be hidden from public view (post-detonations) will likely settle the arguments about its destructive capabilities.
One thing for sure, the US and NATO cannot intercept these missiles and Russia can hit any target in Europe and the UK whenever they choose to do so. The fact that these missiles can carry nuclear warheads makes me think that should Russia fire them at targets outside of Ukraine, we will be on thin ice as far as the US, France, and the UK interpreting the strike as being nuclear rather than conventional.
I still think the Aegis Ashore facilities in Poland and Romania have to be at the top of the Russian target list, because Russia has stated it will use military-technical means to remove them and clearly the US has no intention of doing so.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 17:06 utc | 119

Passerby@84…..just falling off the fence a bit, but if Lavrov is saying that now, then the Russians knew what was coming…..does that make the SMO a LIHOP….or a bad case of ineptness on Russia’s part. They were caught a little flat footed….
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Dec 6 2024 17:15 utc | 120

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 16:17 utc | 99
Honestly, I think all of these are correct and cumulative. They never had many of them to begin with, had most shot down by Russian defense systems, and the Pentagon is breathing sighs of relief that Ukrainian stocks are now low, because they won’t have to deny their uses and will now be able to tell Moscow that they indeed reined the Ukrainians in, and because they also don’t have to choose between bluntly telling Ukraine to stop hitting Russia or crossing genuine redlines and risk total war. This also means they won’t have to lose face and get bad PR / marketing by actually admitting they can’t replenish Ukrainian stocks anymore – and now Ukraine and Pentagon / weapons dealers will be able to argue “We could do more and help push the Russians back, but the administration is scared and doesn’t want us to”.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Dec 6 2024 17:16 utc | 121

Why is SAA so weak? Against the jihadist in Toyota pickups?
Where is Iran?
Where is Hezbollah?
Why are Arabs so unreliable soldiers?
There was so much talk here about “the axes of resistance” but there was nothing.

Posted by: salmon | Dec 6 2024 17:18 utc | 122

It’s way more likely that the Oreshnik would have been used anyway. It was waiting to be tested politically. ATACMS provided some reason, to provide some public reason for the use of this “ballistic nuke like” missile system. But really, over the last year many reasons would have been sufficient: F-16’s, Kursk and so on. Seems to me Russia is quite capable of addressing the ATACMS threat in many other ways as well. Also, this whole “US is operating the missile” is true enough and at the same time just for public consumption. E.g. Russia was operating or maintaining the Donbas militias and much of their weapon systems years before the SMO. And many other situations could be listed. It’s a gray area. A political maneuvering.

Posted by: John Dowser | Dec 6 2024 17:18 utc | 123

Perimetr 119:
Agreed, based only upon kinetic energy calculations:
Oreshnik
Mach 10 = 3430 m/s = 3.43 x 10^3 m/s
1 metric ton = 1000 kg of TNT = 4.184 x 10 ^ 9 joules
K.E. = 1/2 m (v^2)
Kinetic energy of Oreshnik (w/ each of 36 modules having mass = 100kg)
= 1/2 x 100 kg x (3.43 x 10^3 m/s)^2
= 5.9 x 10^8 J (x 36 mirvs)
= 2.1 x 10^10 J
So 3600 kg of Oreshnik has a kinetic energy impact equivalent of about 4.8 metric tons of TNT, or 1.3x its mass in TNT equivalent.
Postol’s numbers check out.
1 megaton of TNT = 4.184 x 10^15 J
Oreshnick’s KE on impact is 5 orders of magnitude smaller than a 1 megaton nuclear weapon.
Either Putin has been misinformed regarding Oreshnik’s capabilities or the Russians have developed an additional, heat related storage and release of energy.
One method could be a material with a very high specific heat that absorbs the heat of friction with the atmosphere during descent and releases that heat upon impact, adding greatly to the system’s destructive capability.

Posted by: Ciaran | Dec 6 2024 17:19 utc | 124

If Syria falls, the multipolar world will collapse, and the dream of “Greater Israel” will become a reality. In the end, Prigozhin was right, but he was sacrificed by Russia.

Posted by: VkNEL | Dec 6 2024 17:20 utc | 125

I think that maybe what makes the Oreshnik troubling for NATO is:
It is challenging to defend against because of its speed and
It is potentially non-nuclear so they will have difficulty in how to respond until after it strikes.

Posted by: jared | Dec 6 2024 17:24 utc | 126

re: Ciaran | Dec 6 2024 17:19 utc | 124
I think some overenthusiastic, poorly informed general misinformed Putin about the overall destructive power of Oreshnik, because Putin is far to smart to intentionally lie about something that can be estimated using physics and mathematics.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 17:28 utc | 127

What I really miss here is the discussion about the landmines supplied to Ukraine by Biden. In my opinion, these are much more harmful than the ATACMS, which Russia can usually neutralize. Landmines, which are actually banned because they mainly wound and kill the civilian population, are a weapon with a long-term effect, deceitful and criminal. It is typical of the US that they don’t give a damn. Even the repeatedly documented use of chemical weapons is never discussed here. I hope that one day there will be a Nuremberg 2.

Posted by: Aarsupilani | Dec 6 2024 17:29 utc | 128

PUTIN HAS ALREADY SOLD SYRIA FOR A CHABAD BROTHER TRUMP IN EXCHANGE FOR UKRAINE THE FALL OF TRUST LOOK FOR

Posted by: justicenetdz | Dec 6 2024 17:36 utc | 129

I’ve made available “Lavrov-Carlson Interview: Official English Transcript from MFA”.
//////////////////////////////////
Curious set of trolls trying to spin everything. My assessment of the interview for those wanting to know can be read at my substack.
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:01 utc | 117
This time I tried checking your substack first but it wasn’t posted yet and the video was long so found another good transcript.
On a karma note was funny to hear thee before the us did had the “fuck the eu” moment, Barroso had a “fuck the RF” one. “We want the same. Ukraine want to have markets both in Europe and in Russia. Why don’t we sit three of us and discuss it like grownups? The head of the European Commission was the Portuguese José Manuel Barroso. He responded it’s none of your business what we do with Ukraine. We, for example, the European Union, we don’t ask you to discuss with us your trade with Canada. Absolutely arrogant answer.”
On a candid moment I’d choose the Blinky “No. It is not strategic defeat globally. It is only in Ukraine.”
Once again thanks for the constant effort

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 6 2024 17:41 utc | 130

sean the leprechaun | Dec 6 2024 17:15 utc | 120–
I’m very pleased I reported on the events as they occurred in 2021 as they led to the SMO and archived them for later review. I recently incorporated some of that in a recent article. What you and others are doing is using hindsight and presentism to deal with a very serious historical event that must be understood based on the context of its time.
//////////////////////////
How many barflies have seen genuine photos of the damage done by Oreshnik? If you haven’t, then how can you say Putin was misinformed?

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:43 utc | 131

I have read the phone call by Gerasimov was about chemical weapons used in cluster ammunitions in Bryansk.
Nobody has any objective facts about the phone call nor the damage assessment of the Oreshnik.
I don’t think the point of the Oreshnik is damage, but that it is unstoppable and can get any bunker or silo.
Damage does not need to be massive, if it disables/decapitates.

Posted by: Webej | Dec 6 2024 17:50 utc | 132

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 17:06 utc | 119
More than two Aegis sites in Europe:
Aegis Ashore, Redzikowo, Poland
Aegis Ashore, Deveselu, Romania
4 Arleigh Burke destroyers, permanently moored at Rota harbor, Spain
AN/TPY-2 radar, Kürecik, Turkey
Norwegian frigates
The US claimed that it was necessary to put radars and missiles in Poland and Romania to counter threats from North Korea and Iran.

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 17:58 utc | 133

Newbie | Dec 6 2024 17:41 utc | 130–
Thanks for your reply. I knew last night that transcripts were already available at numerous outlets since the interview was conducted in English, so there wasn’t a great sense of urgency to immediately provide mine. A great deal of other events occurred yesterday atop the big meeting on national projects and development goals. Kursk region has a new acting governor whose acceptance of the position was reported by the Kremlin is one example. Today, a meeting of the Union State Supreme State Council was held in Minsk and both Presidents made statements to the media afterwards with Lukashenko publicly noting the very tense situation on Belarus’s borders with NATO. So, the news density for this Friday is much larger than usual.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 18:01 utc | 134

How many barflies have seen genuine photos of the damage done by Oreshnik? If you haven’t, then how can you say Putin was misinformed?
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:43 utc | 131
Let them say, it’s how you see low iq fantasy or paid posts.
You have to read ukro media as well, it’s far more entertaining. They say the missile disintegrated in air and what you see on video are falling debris, therewas no damage.
Please don’t forget Simplex Simplicius with his theory that hypersonics can’t exist in atmosphere, that article is always worth revisiting.
Let’s hope everyone will get to see its use on a real target, not some more or less training target. I can’t wait for the ‘murican hypersonic missile in action, the Russian one is boring. I’m sure the experts here and prof. Postool can make one in their basement and guide Mr Trumpy to tremensdeous world domination.

Posted by: rk | Dec 6 2024 18:02 utc | 135

Didn’t Russia wipe out 5 HIMARRS and dozens of American and French operators after Nov. 25th?
The HIMARS are what are used to launch the ATACMS, I think. So it looks to me as if the US ignored the Hazel, and continued the strikes…..until they couldn’t any more.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Dec 6 2024 18:03 utc | 136

PUTIN HAS ALREADY SOLD SYRIA FOR A CHABAD BROTHER TRUMP IN EXCHANGE FOR UKRAINE THE FALL OF TRUST LOOK FOR
Posted by: justicenetdz | Dec 6 2024 17:36 utc | 129
He didn’t.
Syria was not Putin’s to sell. It never was
.
Just because you scream about betrayal incessantly ever since Russia intervened in Syria years ago, it doesn’t make this true.
It is not Putin who is attacking Syria. Start yelling at the people who do.
It’s about time.

Posted by: Martina | Dec 6 2024 18:05 utc | 137

The premise of b’s posting is that the Oreshnik missile has and will make a difference in the equations of war.
The Syria conflict starting back up is a potential consequence of Oreshnik
I expect more attempts at biowarfare are also in the desperation tool bag of the God Of Mammon cult in response to Oreshnik.
That the effects of Oreshnik use remain hidden speak volumes to the potential results that will make most of the equations we are reading here be overridden by that reality.
I expect more examples of Oreshnik use as well as what Iran might have to offer in this regard.
How much of the world will have to be destroyed to resolve our civilization war about public/private finance?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 6 2024 18:10 utc | 138

“It seems that Russia’s message has finally reached its recipient.”

No it didn’t. The Western ruling strata are oblivious to the Russian warnings. They know they themselves won’t be at the receiving end, the little people too pre occupied with what not will, so they don’t mind further escalations. Annalena 360° Baerbock who is convinced Europe counts 1,3 million inhabitants and will support Ukraine even if that is to detriment of the people she nominally represents is a perfect example of that.
The Western ruling strata are currently focused on the dismantlement and subsequent dismemberment of the Axis of Resistance. With Syria soon out of the picture and fading away into an abyss similar to Libya and Sudan with all kinds of competing warring factions, Hezbollah will have lost its supply line and no longer be any danger to the Zionist project of ethnically cleansing Palestine. Russia will loose some clout amongst it allies but Iran will be the major loser. In case of a full blown war between the US empire and Iran which is not unlikely with president Donald ‘Adelson’ Trump, Iran will have a lot less regional support to count on.

Posted by: xor | Dec 6 2024 18:11 utc | 139

I have very little expertise as to ballistic or other rocketry, but I rememnber this:
During the second half of the 1970ies, US.controlled rocketry got stationed in the north of Irân when ruled by the Quisling Shah Pahlavi. All meant to reach at least the Caucasus and Soviet Central Asia.
–of course unbearable fro the Soviets.
A good reason for the USSR to support any kind of uprising against that US puppet of a Shah. Even Islamists were to prefer then.
I was stationnned in Irân a middle-man purveyor of potential (possible) nuckes-carriers and other rockets-systems and befitting radar sustems at that time, and took note that upright irâni engineers and even female air tecknicians )so-called “homafars” surrepticioussly did their best to sabotage our US-installed installations. (With whuch I in secret simpathised.)
The Shaanshah and his techical advisors were no fools: Aside from US weaponry, they had contats with radar and defence and attack firms in Israël, Switzerland and even Sweden to my knowlwdge (and to some strange degree also with the French).
My point are these:
1: Since the 1970ties, experts in Irân have been familiar with a wit´de and vast array of western rocketry and radar tecknologies.
2: Some of this expertise have been monitored by Israël and The US of A.
3: Inavoidably, mishaps and sabotage wil happen.
4: In addition, The US and Israël do of course have long-time friends and hostages left in Iran –especially in hig-tech and defence-related fields-

Posted by: Tollef Ås | Dec 6 2024 18:12 utc | 140

@Posted by: kamma43muri | Dec 6 2024 16:58 utc | 116
China is winning while the US throws its remaining strength away in Ukraine, the Middle East etc. At the same time, China is also moving itself away from fossil fuel dependency in the transportation sector in a quite rapid way. The last thing it needs is to get involved in an absolute bloody mess in the Middle East which will also give the West a cause celebre to attack it.
China is interested in EurAsia (including Iran), from which – together with domestic production – it can get the vast majority of its oil; with its oil demand falling over time with mass EV adoption. The same for natural gas and pretty much all its coal. South East Asia + China is the growth engine of the world, and China is increasingly getting its raw material imports from Africa and South America in addition to EurAsia.
China has no strategic interests in what happens in Syria, it’s Europe that is now so dependent upon Middle Eastern oil and gas. And Europe is slowly deteriorating into a non-entity, while the US wastes its time away from the main theatre of competition. Every year China gets stronger and the US gets weaker.

Posted by: Roger Boyd | Dec 6 2024 18:20 utc | 141

re: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:43 utc | 131
you ask: “How many barflies have seen genuine photos of the damage done by Oreshnik? If you haven’t, then how can you say Putin was misinformed?
The issue here is how much energy can be released by solid rods striking the Earth at various mach speeds. At the extreme speeds, the entire mass of the rod is converted to energy as it is vaporized and turned into a plasma that expands outward with immense force. It is similar to when metallic meteorites strike the Earth.
Postol and others are focusing on the potential energy that can be released by these rods when they strike at hypersonic speeds. There are a lot of variables but Postol is a leading expert on missiles and he can reverse engineer the approximate size of the rods based on the throw weight of the missile and the number of observed submunitions striking the target.
In other words, the limiting factor in this is how much energy can be created by solid rods striking the Earth at hypersonic speeds. Once you have an idea of the size and number of rods, then you can create parameters for their explosive/destructive potential.
At the 36:04 minute mark in this video, Dr. Postol presents a slide showing his calculations on the explosive power of the Oreshnik submunitions.
Postal calculates the maximum total explosive power of the submunitions in one missile is about 5 tons in TNT equivalent. Not as Putin said, the equivalent of a “strategic” i.e. nuclear weapon. The calculations are shown on one of his slides.
66 submunitions each with an explosive power of 150 pounds of TNT equivalent = 9900 pounds explosive power, or roughly 5 tons of explosive power per Oreshnik.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 18:20 utc | 142

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 18:01 utc | 134
More than understandable, I just wanted to mention
1. I had learned my lesson and started by looking at your substack
2. Thank you your continuous and extended dedication
3. Start/continue the conversation on the content
I personally found it too contained, plenty of things he might have gone into but it is lavrov and he seldom impinges on what he considers others’ domains. But (will have to view the interview proper and see and hear, not just the text) the most worrying thing I felt in the minutes I saw and the full text I read was a sense of tiredness and worry, or was it just my impression?

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 6 2024 18:23 utc | 143

rk Dec 6 @1802
Statement you made is a compound of muddy slush. Perhaps you should consult a psychologist/hypnotist.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 18:33 utc | 144

Thanks to b for dismissing the ‘North Korean troops fighting Ukraine for Russia’ delusion. Amazing how much traction western agitprop gets even among those who should know better.
CrossTalk: Clueless NATO
https://rumble.com/v5wjz1n-crosstalk-clueless-nato.html
“NATO says the alliance should not be considering a peace plan for Ukraine, but instead be focused on sending more weapons to Kiev.
This alliance again demonstrates it can never entertain plans for peace and security for all. In the meantime the slaughter continues.
CrossTalking with Scott Ritter, David T Pyne and Jack Rasmus.”

Posted by: John Gilberts | Dec 6 2024 18:35 utc | 145

@ Clueless Joe | Dec 6 2024 17:16 utc | 121
i hope you are right about that.. cheers..
@ Aarsupilani | Dec 6 2024 17:29 utc | 128
i think they’ve been in use for some time by both sides, but perhaps someone more knowledge can comment..

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2024 18:37 utc | 146

karlof1@131
How many barflies have seen genuine photos of the damage done by Oreshnik? If you haven’t, then how can you say Putin was misinformed?
…..leaving out the Waffle Maker incident, has Russia not removed lots of top brass Generals for various infractions, did Putin not bring his ‘new guy’, RIP Waffle Maker Guy, in to clean house? If he wasn’t in the dark, would any of that be necessary? And just recently a General at the front has been fudging numbers and events for over a year……is that’s not being misinformed by the misinformed?
Cheers M
….. Dima, on more than one occassion has pointed out the absurdity of the MOD reports….how villages and towns reported captured
by the MOD weeks if not months before, were all of a sudden being refought for? Gotta love the time stamped FPV vids, you can say one thing on paper but real time vids don’t lie…..yet.
Karl, I’m not faulting Putin, on the contrary, but the people around him, in the MOD…..many are compromised, to what degree, who knows. At this point in time, I’d say there is as much danger for Mr Putin within Russia as there is outside.

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Dec 6 2024 18:41 utc | 147

VkNEL Dec 6@1720
So you appear to be a Ha$barfa or some such iteration emanating from mo$$ad. While you are having wet-dreams over a “Greater I$rael”…the Iranians are in the process of finalizing their nukes, while the R.U. Oreshnik is unstoppable.
The Yanon Plan and its adherents will fall into the dustbin of history.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 18:41 utc | 148

It appears the penny is slowly dropping at RT:
https://www.rt.com/news/608840-erdogan-wishes-luck-jihadists-syria/
It took them a week to admit it?
Lavrov interviewed last night all but admitted that he will be meeting Turkey’s FM in Qatar to see what price he wants to stop.
Mark Sleboda shares the same dim view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrqQE8kjcxo&ab_channel=DialogueWorks
I guess you can have all the fancy missiles you want, but when you have all the cash in the world behind you, you just need to hire the right mercenaries and buy off a few corrupt Arab generals to kick Russia out of the Med?

Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 6 2024 18:44 utc | 149

How many barflies have seen genuine photos of the damage done by Oreshnik?
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:43 utc | 131
Sure those photos must exist, but where are they?

Posted by: Naive | Dec 6 2024 18:46 utc | 150

How lpng can Erdogam play such a dirty game?

Posted by: Salmon | Dec 6 2024 19:09 utc | 151

How long can Erdogam play such a dirty game?

Posted by: Salmon | Dec 6 2024 19:09 utc | 152

66 submunitions each with an explosive power of 150 pounds of TNT equivalent = 9900 pounds explosive power, or roughly 5 tons of explosive power per Oreshnik.
Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 18:20 utc | 142
36, not 66, but each 100kg will be in the 130-150tntkg ballpark at least in regular energy
Another question is how much destructive work you get out of that HE equivalent. In normal bombs a lot.
To take Hiroshima as an example, only 14.000 residences were destroyed, so 1 tnt ton per house, maybe 50 kgs of destruction per tnt kg
If properly applied, the same energy can demolish whole magnitudes above that. Kilos demolish tons .
Maybe, just maybe the way the energy is imparted to a structure, and how the excess flows through weak critical spots can take a 250fab equivalent and turn it to all practical purposes into a grand slam or even a cloud maker , 36 of those would rate what? 0.3-0.5 kton but destruction wise might gain a magnitude against hardened targets (you used to spend 10 tons Of iron
just getting the explosion 40 meters underground)
Pure speculation of course

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 6 2024 19:14 utc | 153

Iran and/or Hezbollah could bring Israel to its knees in a couple hours but they are simply afraid to do so. Maybe their fear is that Israel will drop an atomic bomb on them. I don’t see anything else for them to fear. They would rather die by conventional means than by a nuclear blast. They don’t realize it yet but they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to paraphrase FDR.
Iran and Hezbollah appear to have decided they will hang separately rather than hang together. Maybe they will change their minds while they still have a chance to survive.

Posted by: Chas | Dec 6 2024 19:16 utc | 154

Postal frequently punches above his weight, possibly he is a bit senile.

Posted by: nook | Dec 6 2024 19:22 utc | 155

How long can Erdogam play such a dirty game?
Salmon | Dec 6 2024 19:09 utc | 153
Judging by recent photos, not very long.

Posted by: hh | Dec 6 2024 19:24 utc | 156

salmon Dec 6@1718
Day before yesterday I made me some delicious salmon patties.But even salmon these days are probably a bit radioactive from FuckyouShima disaster and bad moves by the Japanese government.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 19:26 utc | 157

Rubyslippery Dec 6 @1844
” Lavrov” …’ADMITTED’…Quit with that slippery shit. Lavrov does NOT admit anything. He is the world’s most careful diplomat. But unlike most of them, he rarely disguises the truth. You could learn something from him.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 19:29 utc | 158

Connecting some dots:
1. Kursk has failed for the NATO jackholes. It’s clear it failed to achieve the objective of diverting resources, seizing enough land to be a bargaining chip, or getting anywhere near the NPP. Winter has now set in and any mercs left face either freezing to death or bombing.
2. NATO went out of theater for the next thing – Syria. Perhaps a message will be sent to trade Syria for land in the Donbas … that strikes me as a Trump like move.
3. Doubt it will work. Lavrov and Erdogan May cut a deal but the West won’t like it. Russia has sticks as well as carrots. It would be a real shame if Aleppo got the Bakhmut treatment and all those refugees headed north. It would also suck to be Erdo when Idlib gets FAB2000s for Christmas.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 19:31 utc | 159

I watched both the before & after videos of Ted Postol with Nima last night and side by side it seems like two different blokes. In the 1st Postol was desperate verging on anger tyrying to get the world , actually amerika but for many amerikans that is the world, to listen to him how urgent it was amerika quit dropping atacams on the RF, cos this new RF weapon was really dangerous.
The 2nd was a different bloke more hesitant to commit to any conclusion and seeming cowed by something.
IMO opinion Postol whois a favourite among a certain class of neoliberal faux peacenik, has been got to and got to hard. I guess they played the old ‘patriotism to amerika’ card, with some emphasis on how his family could be negatively effected.
Many of the posts playing down the effects of Oreshnik here come from posters who have previous as amerikan apologists.
In other words I get the feeling that this is an attempt by the amerikan empire to quiet the horses, to prevent an 80’s style euro panic of the kind that put paid to their euro arms race and lost the MIC a lot of $$$’s.
The way the tide suddenly seemed to turn in a few days tells me that this is just amerika tryin’ to play down the fact that they are backwards technologically, and to stop a bigger problem by attempting to prevent the masses from coming over all pacifist. ie it is all just nonsense amerikan propaganda.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Dec 6 2024 19:31 utc | 160

hh:Dec 6 @1924
Excellent riposte. Though I’m 80 and he’s not there yet, my hands remain primarily youthful, as they are exercised in good hard outdoor work on a regular basis. The hands tell the tale. The would be “Sultan” of greater Turkistani looks to be on the downward slope. The Turkish people probably are aware of that. They are a very tough people and have little time for those they consider as used-up weaklings with puffed up egos and duplicitous ways.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 19:34 utc | 161

micronutz Dec 6@ 1856
It is highly probable that you speak from experience when you use the word “dull”. Are all trolls a bit short on the grey matter?

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 19:38 utc | 162

Sean the leper Dec 6 @1841
Ever the concerned one. How nice.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 19:43 utc | 163

@perimetr, Ciaran
How about a different approach, where we don’t have to know neither speed nor mass of the munition used:
assumption (1) the mass of missiles in such containers stands around 50 tons (space based ISR can’t look inside those containers)
(2) conservation of energy is valid
(3) the chemical energy density of the rocket fuel is of the same order of magnitude as TNT
(4) the missile has 40 tons of fuel, lets assume some losses, for convenience 36 tons are converted into kinetic energy of the projectiles, with 36 submunitions
→ 1 projectile contains the kinetic energy of 1 ton of TNT, similar to one FAB 1500 (order of magnitude, may be closer to the upper limit)
Now we are looking at the effect. Well, can these projectiles trigger some locally (at the target location) available energy to contribute to damage done? Obviously yes, if you hit rocket fuel (remember, Yuzhmash was the USSR factory for producing ICBM, and is still in the business of rockets & missiles), ammunition or the like (deep down, where other projectiles can’t reach), or if there is for example a high building with a lot of potential energy and the missile can make it fall down than you have also a kind of energy multiplier.
As for battle damage assessment – it was in spring of 2022, when the first ever Kinzhal hit UA, a former depot of nuclear weapons deep in the mountains near Delyatin – we haven’t seen any BDA of that event. Will we ever?

Posted by: BG13 | Dec 6 2024 19:47 utc | 164

The Pentagon should probably start mass distribution of adult diapers for all American military who are (covertly) deployed in the Ukraine Proxy War, especially those who have burrowed themselves in deep underground bunkers in Ukraine. If nothing else, these diapers could serve as a soothing mental security blanket.
The Damocles Sword of Mr. Oreshnik paying another house call always looms, as nowhere is safe for the Americans or their NATO cronies.

Posted by: ak74 | Dec 6 2024 19:52 utc | 165

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:43 utc | 131
Don’t feed the leprechaun and keep up the good work
—————
Sean the leper Dec 6 @1841
Ever the concerned one. How nice.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 6 2024 19:43 utc | 164
I’ll take your lead and better it
Sean, the leper Cunt (forgive me canuk for I have sinned)

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 6 2024 19:54 utc | 166

Plekhovo fell today, including what looks like one of the only two logistics roads into Sudzha.
https://t.me/worldpravda/20127
Big trouble for NATO in Kursk. Lots of really bad headlines are coming, soon. If you work for a Western NGO you may want to skip the Christmas party if you’re a young person. Angry NATO-types tend to react to their powerlessness by raping young girls and boys.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 19:58 utc | 167

I wouldn’t call that a particulary impressive result.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 13:10 utc | 25
##############
You wouldn’t because, like your support of Western Zionists and Nazis, you’re applying the wrong filter.
That’s a massive victory when Putin can dictate to his enemies where the boundary is.
Oreshnik may save Russian lives. Putin’s remit is to defend the Russian people and the Russian Federation.
Your Western heroes are mass murderers and kleptocrats.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 6 2024 20:00 utc | 168

re: BG13 | Dec 6 2024 19:47 utc | 165
Your first assumption: “assumption (1) the mass of missiles in such containers stands around 50 tons” is not valid, as that far exceeds the throw weight for the IRBM that delivered the warheads.
Calculating the throw weight of the missile was part of Postol’s calculation.
The total throw weight, as calculated by Postol, was said to be between 9,000 and 12,000 pounds (maximum 6 tons). For comparison, the throw weight of the much larger SARMAT is believed to be 10 tons.
The weight of the submunitions cannot exceed the throw weight.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 20:02 utc | 169

I keep thinking back to one of the webcam clips that leaked before all information was locked down. It was a traffic webcam with a very wide-angle view. In the upper extreme right of the screen we suddenly see the arrival of the six clusters of projectiles, with the now-iconic glow materialising in the cloud base and the streaks of light. They land, and for a little time nothing seems to happen, no immediate blast or column of flame, then, several tens of seconds later, the sky in that part of the screen lights up with at least one, possibly two, very large explosions.
Together with the initial BBC report that secondary explosions continued for up to three hours then Oreshnik clearly found some “energy multipliers”. In a factory complex such as Yuzhmash there will be all kinds of material and kit all too willing to go Boom! at the slightest excuse.
Leaving aside stockpiles of completed ammunition and missile fuel there will be precursor chemicals, treatment and annealing tanks for the metals used in missile/rocket production, probably welding gases of various kinds, machine oils, etc etc.
In short, measuring the output based on hypothetical theorising about the projectiles alone won’t be much of a guide to the damage actually done.
Until I see evidence to the contrary I stand by my post in an earlier thread that the damage was colossal to the point of obliteration.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 6 2024 20:15 utc | 170

The observation by Debsisdead @161 is most likely the case. Dr Postol is too experienced to have not noticed the lack of visible explosions in the videos of the strike. As Norwegian suggested, it is obvious when you think to look for it, and I am sure that is the first thing someone like Postol would look for. To see the projectiles basically disappearing into the ground with little more than a small puff of incandescent gas is creepy as hell when you realize there should have been explosions.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 6 2024 20:16 utc | 171

regarding SAA I would not expect too much, the army is clustering now and then the turtle will start moving, lets see where it stops

Posted by: Macpott | Dec 6 2024 20:16 utc | 172

.. How many barflies have seen genuine photos of the damage done by Oreshnik? If you haven’t, then how can you say Putin was misinformed?
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 6 2024 17:43 utc | 131
a number of the flies have shown themselves to be not rocket scientists.

Posted by: Ново З | Dec 6 2024 20:26 utc | 173

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 6 2024 20:15 utc | 171
That’s an important factor. It was a facility for making rockets, and rocket fuel is highly explosive, to state the obvious.
Lot’s of big secondary booms, deep underground, would do tremendous damage to such a facility beyond the initial kinetic energy of the primary hit.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 20:27 utc | 174

karlof1, debsisdead, et al:
I, too, took Putin’s words, initial analyses by Postol and others, and the absence of official pictures of damage to conclude that Oreshkin’s capability was indeed equivalent to that of a “small” nuclear warhead, without the fallout.
Yet the calculations of kinetic energy don’t lie. Even if you triple the mass, the kinetic impact is 0.0001 of a one-megaton nuke.
Which leaves 2 options: either Oreshkin is not what Putin claims, or there is another mechanism for energy transfer. Decades of Russian science and engineering that included materials and plasma research went it this, so the latter is entirely possible.
I will say that I was quite surprised at Postol’s volte-face. I also question the pictures of damaged buildings that he has used.

Posted by: Ciaran | Dec 6 2024 20:29 utc | 175

If properly applied, the same energy can demolish whole magnitudes above that. Kilos demolish tons .
Maybe, just maybe the way the energy is imparted to a structure, and how the excess flows through weak critical spots can take a 250fab equivalent and turn it to all practical purposes into a grand slam or even a cloud maker , 36 of those would rate what? 0.3-0.5 kton but destruction wise might gain a magnitude against hardened targets (you used to spend 10 tons Of iron
just getting the explosion 40 meters underground)
Pure speculation of course
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 6 2024 19:14 utc | 154

I think you’re on to something here. The effectiveness of the missile is not a function of the total explosive power, but of the explosive power focused on the target. A simple visualization of the energy of an explosion is that of an expanding sphere. In the case of a bomb exploding on the ground, roughly half of the explosive energy goes into the top hemisphere, that is, does nothing against the target. Of course the explosive power of a bomb can be magnified in the direction of its fall, the kinetic energy of a falling bomb adding to the explosive energy released.
Sure this is mostly speculation, but it should be apparent that a kinetic weapon will direct its energy in the direction it was traveling upon impact, likely providing more effective destructive energy than a slow moving bomb with equivalent energy releasing (assuming that you are trying to penetrate the ground as deeply as possible). The question is how much of that energy in a kinetic weapon is dissipated in every direction upon impact and how much stays focused. Russia is known for its advanced use of materials. That is what made possible hypersonic missiles from what I’ve read. So it should not be too much of a stretch to entertain that Russia has found a mix of materials in the rod that will focus the energy in the direction the rod has been traveling. In fact, this is what I would expect from them. The technology to make shaped charges that will penetrate armor then kill everyone inside a tank has been around for some time.

Posted by: Mike R | Dec 6 2024 20:33 utc | 176

Postol works for MIT (or worked for them, and still has ties to colleagues there.)
MIT gets tons of money from the defense department and US State Dept. for research. If those grants were to be cut off, real careers go down the toilet.
Ergo, he’s vulnerable to being told to stay on script or else.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 20:35 utc | 177

I think some overenthusiastic, poorly informed general misinformed Putin about the overall destructive power of Oreshnik, because Putin is far to smart to intentionally lie about something that can be estimated using physics and mathematics.
Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 17:28 utc | 127

The Russians have been classically superior physicists and mathematicians. If the West is so great they’d have these weapons — Kinzhal, Zircon, Oreshnik — instead of arguing with each other as to their effectiveness.
“Diggers” aka bunker busters have been around for some time. Add in hypersonic speed, unknown projectile material and unknown explosive composition and who knows exactly how deep they went or how destructive they were. You can lay money that if Oreshnik WASN’T effective the UKMOD & NATO would be showing full-color detailed pics of the damaged complex just like a couple with their first newborn.

Posted by: TJandTheBear | Dec 6 2024 20:36 utc | 178

Perimetr @170
You are misunderstanding the point BG13 was making @165.
All weapons systems are just mechanisms for transferring energy from an origin point to a target. In the case of a kinetic impactor, the thrown mass is just a storage medium for the energy… a battery or capacitor, if you will. Where does all of the energy that the impactor transfers to the target come from? Rocket fuel, in this case. Oreshnik is basically transforming the chemical fuel in the rocket motor into kinetic energy stored in the 36 impactors. The theoretical maximum amount of energy in the impactors to impart into the target is equal to the chemical energy in the rocket used to launch them.
Of course, that is the theoretical max. There would be friction and adiabatic compression heating losses as the hypersonic warhead pushed through the atmosphere. That is, some of the kinetic energy in the weapon would be transformed into heat energy in the atmosphere and thus lost. The Russians apparently have some way to reduce these losses dramatically to allow the hypersonic vehicle to “slip” through the air much more easily. I suspect they are shaping the plasma envelope of the vehicle using magnetic fields generated in the plasma itself. However they are accomplishing this, we are getting a big increase in efficiency in transferring energy from the rocket fuel to the target, such that adding some explosives to the impactor won’t really make a significant difference in the resulting “BOOM!”.
The details are all just speculation, but from a physics perspective, looking at the energy content of the fuel in the launch vehicle is a good way to estimate the delivered energy in a kinetic impactor. I think BG13’s approach is sound.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 6 2024 20:40 utc | 179

It seems the Russian modus operandi becomes clearer and clearer no matter what the theatre of operation is :
– feebly react against NATO encroachment
– conclude some half-assed deal
– sit on their hands while NATO prepares quietly for the next round and rearms
– get caught with their pants down (fooled again !)
– complain (it’s not fair !)
– Try to arrange another half-assed agreement
– act surprised when concluding that NATO is not a truthful partner

– pack up and leave ?
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 15:29 utc | 70

Not just Russia.
The “Axis of Resistance” did even worse.
I didn’t see much resistance from them, they largely just laid down and conceded defeat. Surprisingly easily considering the capabilities they supposedly had.
Certainly much easier than the Israeli-Arab wars from the 1960s and 1970s.
What happened?

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 20:43 utc | 180

I think the Oreshnik is the ideal weapon for hitting underground bunkers, factories, and command centers. It will obliterate the entrance to any bunker even if its explosive power doesn’t reach down to actually destroy the bunker/command center itself. Apparently the Khinzal has similar capabilities, but I am guessing that because the Oreshnik can distribute submunitions over a much wider area, it is preferable for some targets.
The fact that the US and NATO have no ability to intercept these hypersonic weapons should make the fools running the show quake in their boots, assuming they are not completely deluded or insane or both.

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 20:44 utc | 181

A bit like in the Donbass. Russians prefer fighting the Ukes in the Donbass, make life miserable for everyone there and levelling supposedly Russian cities, rather than bring the fight to the actual homeland of the Galician nazis in Lviv or Sumy.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 13:18 utc | 30

Sumy is on the Russian border.
And yes, it has been a lot more Banderized than one would expect based on its location, but it is certainly not Galicia. You mean Lvov, Ivano-Frankovsk and Ternopol I gues…

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 20:51 utc | 182

Is there any chance that some financial crisis hit the collective west soon so that this war stops?
Only if they cannot print the money they would stop.
Otherwise we are doomed.

Posted by: salmon | Dec 6 2024 20:56 utc | 183

assuming they are not completely deluded or insane or both.
Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 20:44 utc | 182
That’s the point. Delusions are strong with them.
Some suggestions how to use the conventional escalation dominance: take out the platforms in the gulf. Or the refineries on the coast. (Two weeks, and all wheels will stop?) US has nothing to defend anything, besides nukes. Iirc earlier this year a Russian sub paid a visit to Cuba, and the news said it had only conventional stuff.

Posted by: MorePain4Cakes | Dec 6 2024 20:58 utc | 184

All that Oreshnik supposedly achieved was that Ukraine stopped using a weapon which was ineffective and had no impact anyway on the battlefield, according to Zanon, without achieving any other results (as in, Ukraine suing for peace or stopping attacks on Russian territory.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 13:10 utc | 25

More — a lot of launchers and missile stockpiles were reportedly dertsoyed. Just a couple hours ago we got this:
https://t.me/treugolniklpr/73646

According to preliminary information, the Atakms installations that were preparing to strike the south were destroyed in the Kherson region

So the more likely explanation is that the ATACMS strikes will resume soon.
We also got the following shortly after:
https://t.me/treugolniklpr/73614

Oryol region attention in the sky

https://t.me/treugolniklpr/73615

Oryol Region Missile Danger

https://t.me/treugolniklpr/73618

Missile danger
Voronezh region

What kind of missile was that? Certainly not HIMARS — it does not reach Oryol and Voronezh.
Likely not Storm Shadow — there were no reports about planes in the sky.
So either ATACMS again, at pre-war Russia.
Or it is one of the “Ukrainian” missiles.
Which points to the solution to the problem from a Western perspective — it will be Western missiles other than ATACMS branded as “Ukrainian” from here on. Neptunes, etc.
And there will again be no response to London, Brussels, and DC, so checkmate.
Also, in terms of escalation what is happening now in Syria is a lot worse than those strikes on Kursk and Bryansk…

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 20:59 utc | 185

Postol works for MIT (or worked for them, and still has ties to colleagues there.)
MIT gets tons of money from the defense department and US State Dept. for research. If those grants were to be cut off, real careers go down the toilet.
Ergo, he’s vulnerable to being told to stay on script or else.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 20:35 utc | 178

Only the first sentence is correct.
He did in fact go off script. In a very major way — he exposed that the whole ABM program, for which MIT was getting billions, is a big lie, and that the institute knew about it, but kept lying about it to get more money.
Then MIT tried to fire him, even though he was tenured. They couldn’t, but they certainly made life very miserable for him.
The problem with his claims here is that he is trusting unreliable data or making conclusions out of very little.
The other day I saw him claiming that the video that was circulating of a rocket flying through the sky over Kazakhstan was the Oreshnik. Such a claim was indeed made on the internet, but geographically there was no way for that to be true unless the missile flew to the east, then turned back to the west (and we are pretty sure it didn’t do that), and then I am also pretty sure it turned out it was video from a Soyuz launch. Which he wasn’t aware of apparently, but he was still making bold claims about speeds and trajectories.
The reality is that everything we know boils down to those three videos of the 6 x 6 streaks in the sky coming down at hypersonic speeds. That is all the actual data.
We don’t know the range, we don’t know the speed, we don’t know the trajectory (is it a ballistic, quasi-ballistic, or even some kind of a high-altitude cruise missile), can it be nuclear or not, what those 6 x 6 things are, how widely they can spread, are the 6 independently targetable or all 6 x 6, are any of them maneuvrable, if yes, just the 6 parent one or the 6 x 6 daughter ones, etc. etc.
None of that is known or there is data to know it based off.
Presumably NATO does have that data. Plus they have of course seen the aftermath. But publicly all we have is those three videos and that’s it.

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 21:00 utc | 186

Is there any chance that some financial crisis hit the collective west soon so that this war stops?
Only if they cannot print the money they would stop.
Otherwise we are doomed.
Posted by: salmon | Dec 6 2024 20:56 utc | 184

The West can print money because it is dominant militarily. People always get this backwards.
The dollar is backed up by the threat that if you don’t hand over your real wealth (natural resources and the products of the labor of your people) to the US in exchange for inherently worthless greenback IOUs (and these days not even that, but symbols on a screen), then you will be bombed or couped.
As long as people are sufficiently afraid, the dollar will keep its value and there will be no financial crisis.
That is the whole point of the increasingly savage US behavior internationally.
Until Russia resolves its internal contradictions and starts fighting seriously, there is no hope. Same applies to the other enemies of the West.
It doesn’t matter if you have the best rocket and nuclear science on the planet if leadership is never going to strike where it has to.

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 21:03 utc | 187

Perimetr | Dec 6 2024 20:44 utc | 182
“I think the Oreshnik is the ideal weapon for hitting underground bunkers, factories, and command centers.”
I think it is the ideal weapon to sink the Ford aircraft carrier.
lol

Posted by: cortomaltese | Dec 6 2024 21:03 utc | 188

I even forgot to add my previous hobby-horse about what happens to moisture when 2000°C suddenly arrives…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 6 2024 21:05 utc | 189

US has nothing to defend anything, besides nukes.
Deterrence is their only use in defense, and those nukes are ancient albeit decently maintained.
The snooty NATO establishment still ASSumes their nukes are “better” just like they ASSumed their tanks, artillery, etc. were bettern.

Posted by: TJandTheBear | Dec 6 2024 21:08 utc | 190

It reminds me of a UK government appointed turbine expert telling Whittle that his jet engine would be unable to achieve the necessary compression ratios.

Posted by: Derrick | Dec 6 2024 21:09 utc | 191

It would be interesting to know what the November 28 strike really hit. This seem to have made an even bigger impression than the Oresknik.

Posted by: xblob | Dec 6 2024 21:14 utc | 192

Posted by: xblob | Dec 6 2024 21:14 utc | 193
Set a Google alert for the phrase “Tragic skiing accident in the Alps”, sit back and wait. I suspect you’ll get your partial answer within a fortnight …

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 21:18 utc | 193

Quite well. Russia is being kicked out of the Middle East with a minimal investment in the space of two weeks. I mean that’s what we would have liked to see Russia doing in Ukraine in 2022.
Posted by: Micron | Dec 6 2024 16:41 utc | 110

Russia has a radical winning move here – provoke Turkey to start a direct war with Russia. There are ways to do it – start systematically targeting the Turkish soldiers on the ground, start hitting the border crossings, bait the Turkish airforce to try to intervene on the side of the rebels, then shoot it down, etc.
Then do the nuclear multiplication by zero exercise with Turkey.
This solves a lot of strategic problems in way than doing the same with Poland would not have (that would have been only a tactical victory). And again, you can do it in such a way that it will look like Turkey started it.
But Stalin was the last Russian ruler capable of playing such games, while in the Kremlin today they want to do business with Erdogan, not to defend vital Russian interests.
Russia is finished if Syria falls, but they are not doing anywhere enough to save it.

Posted by: ANON2022 | Dec 6 2024 21:21 utc | 194

A lot of drama-queening has suddenly appeared. Someone somewhere really doesn’t like discussion about the impact of Oreshnik…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 6 2024 21:25 utc | 195

Just a personal opinion but Micron is a next-level troll. Anon2022 makes some good posts.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 21:45 utc | 196

@195
That is an interesting thought, but there is the problem of Turkey being in NATO. Maybe that is just a detail, as once you’ve nuked Istanbul there isn’t much point in debating Article 5.
Russia is hardly “finished” if Syria goes down the toilet, but it would be a strategic defeat. They’d have to regroup and figure out a plan B for projecting power into Africa and the ME.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 6 2024 21:48 utc | 197

‘Bashar al-Assad asked the leader of Iraq’s paramilitary groups for reinforcements, but so far they are not prepared to fight on his behalf’
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/inside-iraqi-factions-decision-keep-out-syria

Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 6 2024 21:54 utc | 198

there has been a lot of discussion about what the explosive power of the Oreshnik’s payload equates to in conventional and nuclear terms. But this doesn’t matter, beyond a certain point: what matters is the accuracy with which specific targets can be destroyed. Thirty-six projectiles, hitting accurately, even with quite small yields, could destroy an airbase as thoroughly as a twenty-kiloton nuclear weapon. (aurelien)

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 6 2024 21:56 utc | 199

Syria is an excellent asymmetrical move by NAZO as far as Ukraine is concerned, but the responses from China, Iran, Iraq, Russia and the collective Arab world will show the longer strategic prognostication.
As it now stands, I read a lot about premature hyperbole about how this is such a masterstroke, but we really (so far) only have a tactical surprise assault by a bunch of Jihadi mercenaries backed by the Hegemon, Turkey and regular suspects.
It reminds me somewhat over the superlatives over the “genius” Kursk offensive a few months back. Now, the West is backing a bunch of Wahhabbi frenzied dogs, while Kursk was at least units of genuine fighters of UAF.
This situation will be determined by the logistical pace of the coalition around Asad. I would be especially curious to see how Hizbollah’s crack force and rhe Iraqi PMU’s race to the scene. Certainly SAA needs to rally abd regroup as well -STRONGLY!!

Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Dec 6 2024 21:58 utc | 200