South Korea - National Assembly Impeaches President Over Failed Putsch Attempt
On December 3 the President of South Korea Yoon Suk Yeol launched a coup against the opposition ruled National Assembly. He declared martial law and ordered military special forces and police units to block law makers from assembling.
But the assembly members did win the race:
Just 150 minutes after the presidential announcement 191 of the 300 members of the National Assembly voted to immediately end the martial law status. Troops and police entered the parliament but the vote against martial law had already taken place.
A lot has happened since. President Yoon's defense minister and high school buddy Kim Yong-hyun has been arrested for initiating and taking part in the martial law scheme:
Kim has been accused of recommending martial law to Yoon and sending troops to the National Assembly to block lawmakers from voting on it. Enough lawmakers eventually managed to enter a parliament chamber and unanimously rejected Yoon’s decree, forcing the Cabinet to lift it before daybreak on Dec. 4.
Kim has since tried to commit suicide.
Some of the military commanders who were ordered to implement the martial law have since talked to investigators. They revealed that the martial law scheme had been part of a larger, even more crazy plan which could have led to war with North Korea:
The Defense Minister's original plan was to provoke an attack from North Korea, then use that as an excuse to declare martial law. To that end, South Korean military flew several drones over the Pyongyang sky, spraying propaganda fliers. North Korea did not attack, however.
...
Initial preparation for the coup began as far back as July 2023, as the military compiled the reference materials for operations under a martial law situation and produced a manual around that time.
Last Saturday President Yoon's People Power Party had blocked an attempt by the National Assembly to impeach President Yoon. But as more details of the attempted coup came out over the week the pressure from the general public on the party increased. Today another vote on impeachment was held. It received the necessary two third majority:
South Korea’s parliament voted to impeach President Yoon Suk Yeol on Saturday in an extraordinary rebuke that came about after his own ruling party turned on him following his refusal to resign over his short-lived martial law attempt.It is the second time in less than a decade that a South Korean leader has faced impeachment proceedings in office and means Yoon is suspended from exercising his powers until the decision is finally adjudicated by the country’s Constitutional Court.
Following the vote, which sparked jubilation among protesters outside parliament, Yoon conceded that he will “stop temporarily for now, but the journey to the future that I’ve walked with the people for the past two years should not stop.”
“I will not give up,” he said in a statement shared by the country’s presidential office.
Yoon will try to convince the Constitutional Court that he is not guilty of insurrection and should not be impeached.
The court has a number of vacancies. Currently only six judges are available and to impeach Yoon all six would have to agree.
Yoon will however have difficulties to claim that he is innocent:
Senior government officials have testified at various government hearings over the last week revealing some extraordinary details about the night of the martial law order.Special Warfare Command Commander Kwak Jong-geun testified that he received a direct order from President Yoon to break the doors of the National Assembly and drag out the lawmakers, but he did not comply.
Kwak Jong-geun did not comply with Yoon's order because it was evidently illegal. Martial law does not include the power to prevent the national assembly from fulfilling its constitutional duty. It is something that Yoon, as a former prosecutor, will surely have known.
Any constitutional court ruling in favor of Yoon would thus be purely political and in contradiction to the law.
The South Korean public would, rightly, go berserk over it.
Posted by b on December 14, 2024 at 16:39 UTC | Permalink
next page »Its hard to believe tha the US was caught surprised by a plan to attack North Korea, especially with two or three carriers deployed in the area. Certain units would have recieved orders to forward deploy if this was being ruminated. Were the NEOCONS trying to wrap a war around Trumpy's neck?
Posted by: circumspect | Dec 14 2024 16:49 utc | 2
Anyone who thinks Yoon's move was something he cooked up all by his lonesome has likely either been smoking something neither green nor organic....OR simply have received ALL their noose from Boobtoob evening Noose presenters...all according to script.
Some are already coming to the conclusion that Uncle $hmuel's nasty Boyz have nudged that hapless stooge.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 17:06 utc | 4
Posted by: circumspect | Dec 14 2024 16:49 utc | 2
It is more than hard to believe, it's impossible.
AIUI in the event of an attack from North Korea, the US assumes command of South Korean forces.
There is no way that "Biden" did not now in advance.
Obama wants to leave the world behind, Biden wants to take it with him.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Dec 14 2024 17:06 utc | 5
The US would like to use South Korea as a source of munitions, weaponry, and to create trouble for China and Russia, i.e. a sort of mirror image of what North Korea is to Russia
Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 14 2024 17:08 utc | 6
Welp, whoever cooked this up. Fu*ked it up in the kitchen:
There is clear evidence of substantial amount of planning for a coup here, there is chance that this coup could have worked and turned South Korea into a military junta (again) if only they realized the thing that made the likes of Chun Doo-hwan popular was he was widely respected in the army because of his preferential treatment to the army (that and his secret group). Back when Chun successfully carried out his uprising he handed out red packet to every officer in the army beforehand. Fmr president Moon Jae-in even recounts that he was a sergeant at the time and he got a red packet from Chun too consisting of 10 month worth of his army pay, which he used to pay to finish his law degree after he retired from the army.
Then much later on at his trial when asked were all that 220 billion corruption money went Chun refused to give up any names and insists he spent it all, taking all the blame himself rather than trying to spread it around like the current group of coupers. Chun Doo-hwan many have been a brutal military dictator but to his men he was a "good" manager and leader.
Yoon on the other hand has done nothing for the army other than cutting their already poor food budget and place his own high school buddy at the top. Its curious how they thought about the other aspects of this coup but forgot the really important part of having the army on their side.
Rule 1 of army coup: Don't cut army pay & rations. Then expect them to follow you.
Posted by: Urban Fox | Dec 14 2024 17:18 utc | 7
Sock puppet of the USA, now a pawn after the failure of a new proxy war, but the internal structure remains the same.
Posted by: wp007 | Dec 14 2024 17:18 utc | 8
Any commenters who want to change ROK politics into a Trumper fantasy of Biden pulling a coup to somehow hurt Trump has to ignore the OP's citation of evidence the coup planning began long ago. If the US military command in ROK supported the coup, their position at the top of the ROK's military suggests that their help would have put the military on top. Even the State Department approval was very limited.
The chances of a unanimous vote in the crippled Constitutional Court (all those vacancies are not an accident but itself reflective of an attempt to attenuate its powers) are likely questionable. The crisis is not resolved till those judges bow to popular opinion. A delayed decision would itself be a political act in favor of Yoon and the forces behind him.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 14 2024 17:23 utc | 9
The attempt to incite an attack by N. Korea in order to justify declaring martial law contradicts the original reason Yoon has used; N. Korean supporters in the Democratic Party and the National Assembly. Clearly Yoon was attempting a power grab as a representative of the most conservative and reactionary elites of S. Korea. The descendants of the elites who collaborated with the Japanese during their long imperialist occupation of Korea, who cannot accept popular governance as represented by the Democratic Party.
Posted by: Keme | Dec 14 2024 17:24 utc | 10
More details:
As Yoon's officers continue to confess new information, Yoon's plan seemed to be to provoke a North Korean attack and then use it as an excuse to declare martial law. To this end, the South Korean military dispatched several drones to fly over Pyongyang and spray leaflets. However. Instead of launching an attack, North Korea simply blew up the DMZ road.
South Korean opposition lawmakers accused the South Korean military of collecting drones that were not shot down and burning them to destroy evidence.
The South Korean military also admitted that Yoon directly commanded the army to arrest lawmakers, and he personally called the commander of the South Korean Army Special Warfare Division: "They haven't reached the legal number yet, go in and drag them all out."
During South Korea's martial law, helicopters carrying South Korean special forces to the parliament were blocked in Seoul's no-fly zone because the South Korean Air Force was unaware of the coup plan. In the end, the South Korean Air Force did not approve the flight, and the South Korean Army forged the approval order.
It is also worth noting that South Korea's Democratic Party lawmaker Xu Ying said that Yoon Seok-yeol mobilized 211 people from the Seoul Defense Command (48 of whom entered the National Assembly), 277 people from the 1st Airborne Special Operations Brigade, 231 people from the 3rd Airborne Special Operations Brigade, 211 people from the 9th Airborne Special Operations Brigade, 197 people from the 707th Task Force, 49 people from the South Korean Armed Forces Counterintelligence Command Plainclothes Arrest Team, 8 people from the South Korean Military Intelligence Command, and 7 people from the HID Force on that day.
The use of this HID force is very subtle. This force has had multiple identities and many stories in the past. It is now called the Special Task Force of the South Korean Armed Forces Counterintelligence Command. Its main task is to perform decapitation tasks in the event of war. They are usually near the demilitarized zone, but on December 3, they were just outside Seoul. The HID force usually does not wear South Korean military uniforms, they wear fake North Korean military uniforms.
So Yoon Seok-yeol's plan was not small, yet the result was very bad.
Looks like the military support base was just far too narrow, for a variety of reasons. Secrecy not even one of them. There was chatter in SK for weeks about martial law.
Also the North Koreans, seem to have sussed this all out waaay ahead of time.
It'd be grimly funny if Yoon was actually right, only it was his *own* inner circle that had NK saboteurs in it.
Posted by: Urban Fox | Dec 14 2024 17:28 utc | 11
also, what's with the drones flying over northeastern usa??
Posted by: james | Dec 14 2024 16:43 utc | 1
The FAA is up for reauthorization and wants to increase their powers.
Posted by: First Time Poster | Dec 14 2024 17:28 utc | 12
Oopsie, pardon my coup. Impeachment is like getting a parking ticket for running someone over, shouldn't the penalty for an attempted coup be a nice long jail sentence? In a good part of the last century the penalty pretty much across the globe would have been death, I'm surprised the USA hasn't flown him out of the country to exile somewhere, say a karaoke lounge bar in Koreatown in Los Angeles? Some sort of ClownWorld rainbow woke coup with a rainbow woke penalty.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 14 2024 17:35 utc | 13
james @ 1
also, what's with the drones flying over northeastern usa??
Ever read Oryx and Crake? The end of the world will be ridiculous, the end of ClownWorld will be even sillier, it'll include an alien invasion.
Here's Garland Nixon riffing on the NJ drone hysteria:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVS0-slbl_U
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 14 2024 17:41 utc | 14
I remember the wacky SK politics of the 1980s. Guess we are back to that.
Well, not really. Both the realist and rules-based-order types think the martial law stunt was silly. And now, it looks like he's going to get forked. Maybe even thrown in prison or executed. SK don't mess around.
Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 14 2024 17:41 utc | 15
Urban Fox @ 11
That was excellent, thanks!
And now I understand what the bags of leaflets vs. bags of garbage drone war was about, NK was taking the piss out of Yoon.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 14 2024 17:50 utc | 16
As we can see in this scenario, someone always underestimates something, and plots start to unravel.
In the West, people are subject to narrative control. So what you're told on live TV as 9/11 is happening, is not the narrative a week later, and what was said is never addressed again.
I think this is a case study of how hard it is to pull off a coup in the modern era with Twitter and whatever the predominant social networks in South Korea are.
We've also seen that Russia-adjacent countries have gotten smarter about withstanding color revolution attempts after Ukraine. That knowledge alone would be a reason for me as a leader of a small country being eyed up hungrily by the West to join BRICS and visit with Mr. Lavrov.
Everything complex and successful comes down to details in execution. One hand in the wrong place, someone arriving +/- 30 seconds unexpectedly, plans can fall apart instantly. Even a facial expression given at the wrong time can tip people off that something is incorrect.
The issue these coup plotters didn't have well organized in my opinion, is that they should have worked harder to build a case against the opposition beyond the usual political rhetoric and slander. They should have found a way to arrest someone for visiting a brothel or violating some personal finance law a week in advance. There is dirt on everyone, in politics, the first to get it and use it, usually wins.
I believe this was a desperate move by the President which was not endorsed by the Americans. If the Yankees were behind it, there would have been much more talk in the Western media before and while it was happening. The American troops would have been moved into Seoul to help "secure" government buildings during this "national emergency".
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 14 2024 17:50 utc | 17
The pale shade of Louis Proyect shows up to run narrative interference for the Establishment.
What a surprise.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 14 2024 18:01 utc | 18
Execute the fucker and his accomplices if it's proven that they were trying to create a war.
Take the american general into custody and return command of the army to actual Koreans.
---
Imagine for a moment what would happen if this kind of plot took place in Finland (the ideal next place for nato/america/israel to attack Russia):
- The president (who is swedish, allegedly jewish, hadn't been in Finland for eight years after Finns voted him the most hated minister of all time--but magically got elected anyway by voting machines run by a state monopoly company collaborating with the famous Dominion voting machine manufacturer... hey, and his actual first name is the most hated first name that a Finn could imagine, which is never mentioned: "Göran") declares martial law for some imaginary reason
- The 200 freemasons in parliament vote unanimously in approval
- The american army bases in Finland have a day off, since the Finnish police and army command have long since been bought by america, and most of the army autists are instantly bristling with adrenaline to kill the "enemy" anyway, meaning anyone who disagrees
- 99.9% of Finns stay home and meekly starve to death
- The remaining 0.1% run to the streets in anger, frothing at the mouth ready to defend the government's decision to any passerby
- A few stragglers run to the forest with bugout bags and get killed within a few days in the style of the 1918 "civil war" genocidal massacre
Posted by: Jack M | Dec 14 2024 18:01 utc | 19
Yoon wanted to transform S Korea to Ukraine of the east.
Posted by: Michael J | Dec 14 2024 17:03 utc | 3
After World War II, the rotten poliotician in East Asia, who pretended to be ‘patriotic conservatives’ under the guise of US imperialism, are basically fools who intend to turn their country into Ukraine.
There are similar spicies in Japan and Taiwan.
Posted by: Nokaz | Dec 14 2024 18:09 utc | 20
Good to see a Rule-of-Law bunch win out over a rules-based bunch. This event within the context of South Korea's very checkered history shows that it's evolving in what IMO is the proper direction. That DPRK's Kim didn't take the bait IMO is also a sign of maturation. As Richard Wolff has said in his analysis, the failed coup is a direct result of the declining abilities of the Outlaw US Empire to produce enough war material on its own. Lack of munitions for Ukraine was long evident almost as soon as the SMO commenced given the Ukie's usage to production rate. So, the preparation for the coup beginning in 2023 shows the anticipation of NATO's shell hunger and inability to solve it.
IMO, we're seeing the result of RoK's maturing understanding of its national interests that began with the previous administration's attempts to make peace with DPRK. Its industrialists want to extend their growth by increasing trade with China, not to see it diminish or see their production assets get destroyed in an idiotic war with the North. And that realization is shared by the greater mass of RoK's public. How this will evolve politically within RoK isn't exactly clear, but IMO the Rule-of-Law will advance its standing while the RoK's version of Neocons will sink. IMO, that the Defense Minister sought what's still considered an honorable path out of his personal situation and the President didn't will also affect the RoK electorate. This Saga isn't over yet, but it appears the Korean people have won an important political victory.
Interesting new video on Korea. (repost)
Is South Korea’s Coup About Triggering War with North Korea? - BreakThrough News
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Dec 14 2024 18:12 utc | 22
Come on guys … the four years of Biden-Blinken has been clear from the very beginning in Februari 2021 … re-start where VP Joe left off in Januari 2017 … CIA intelligence and PropOrNot and Russophobia … reading the tea leaves in the White House. Defeat in the Afghan War was a given, loss of a foothold in Central Asia had to be fixed … embarrassing failures had to be avenged … Assad and Putin. All well planned … departure of Angela Merkel was a start shot for proxy war in Ukraine… all NATO allies have been on board ever since the Arab Spring of 2011. Kabuki theatre playing out … UK export militarization of disinformation and propaganda. Biden blitzkrieg across Europe and Five Eyes … Dutch Mark Rutte has been a loyal advocate of war on Russia ever since July 2914 … kindly rewarded in next career step … quid pro quo.
https://wallstreetonparade.com/2016/12/whos-behind-propornots-blacklist-of-news-websites/
Take the american general into custody and return command of the army to actual Koreans.
Posted by: Jack M | Dec 14 2024 18:01 utc | 19
############
That's not how occupation works.
An American serviceman was charged this year in Japan with raping a young girl (under 16) *link*. American servicemen raping Japanese girls has been going on since the end of WW2. Mass murder via nuke and then continued rape during the occupation. Is it any wonder that Japan is in demographic decline?
That has been normal throughout history when aliens occupy a country. They aren't off the people of the land, and so exploit and defile it without care. Today they can always go back home for a holiday and no one is the wiser about what they have done, like the thousands of IDF foreign tourists who went to Gaza to kill and then returned to their home countries to carry on as usual.
America will not leave Germany, Japan, and South Korea until the Empire collapses.
Hopefully, Trump can make that happen soon. 🤞
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 14 2024 18:13 utc | 24
The Armchair Warlord has a good summary below of recent absurd events in the world of supposed democracies, of which South Korea is just a part.
I would add Germany to that list, where the Transatlanticist Friedrich Merz will very probably be elected next Chancellor. A majority of Germans want peace in Ukraine, and a clear majority wants peace in Palestine. Merz is just advocating for more war in both cases ("Putin bad" and "Israel's right to self defense"). The AfD has its own problems, but ignoring an ever greater part of the German populace will ultimately lead to the collapse of the post-war political consensus of Germany. Which might be a good thing.
---
"Georgia - Reasonably popular pro-European government passes a watered-down version of the US Foreign Agents Registration Act and wins reelection on a platform of, uh, (checks notes) not going to war with the Russian Federation. Sanctions descend, NATO sponsors a color revolution attempt, and the President - who, as a former French diplomat, is so compromised she's not even committing treason - openly attempted to incite a coup d'etat and is now trying to squat in her office after her term expires.
Moldova - Unpopular local President, who is a pro-Regime personality, openly rigs an election to stay in power by ensuring only favored groups of Moldovan expatriates would be able to cast absentee ballots.
Romania - Mildly anti-NATO Presidential candidate does well in the first round of balloting. The Supreme Court cancels the elections on laughable accusations of Russian interference, with the pro-NATO incumbent set to remain squatting in office until the elections can be sufficiently rigged to ensure a Regime toady is returned.
South Korea - Democratically embattled but, again, pro-Western President imposes martial law and orders troops onto the streets of Seoul in a failed self-coup attempt. He somehow remains squatting in office despite trying to set himself up as dictator.
UK - After the Tories earned the public's hatred with a long series of moronic Regime-approved policies, Labour ousted them in a landslide - and proceeded to continue all of those policies, in many cases against explicit electoral promises.
France - Macron is forming yet another unworkable minority government in Parliament out of his own party because he absolutely cannot abide by the political opposition whom the citizens of France actually filled the parliament with as a counterweight to him.
US - The lame duck Biden Administration is doing its absolute utmost to use the long American Presidential transition period, three and a half months, to poison the well for Trump. Some of these actions have come with a nonzero risk of starting a nuclear war."
Posted by: Roland | Dec 14 2024 18:37 utc | 26
the wildest revelation exposed when National Assembly's Defense Committee met to question the generals who participated in Yoon's coup.
To arrest key liberal leaders including Lee Jae-myung..The HID unit were not dressed in the ROK military uniform. Instead, they were given a false North Korean uniform. The plan was to have the HID unit either assassinate Lee and others, and if that failed, have the "rescuing" South Korean soldiers to kill both Lee and the HID unit.
more here, follow the thread, i trust this source: https://x.com/BluRoofPolitics/status/1866500696260145330
also:
Broadcaster Kim Eo-jun appeared as a witness at a plenary session of the National Assembly Science, Technology, Information, Broadcasting and Communications Committee and revealed that he had received a tip that "there was a plan to assassinate Representative Han Dong-hoon during martial law and disguise it as the work of North Korea."Kim claimed the plan "also included the intention to kill American soldiers and provoke US military action against North Korea."
He also highlighted the seriousness of the situation at the time, saying that there was even a plan to attack the convoy after he, former Minister Cho Kuk, and former Democratic Research Institute Director Yang Jeong-cheol were arrested.
Meanwhile, US Congressman Brad Sherman mentioned in an MBC radio interview the day before that there was a possibility of domestic unrest through North Korean military camouflage.
He said, "If there was an attempt by the South Korean military to attack the country by disguising itself as the North Korean military, the United States would have fully detected it through intelligence gathering."
https://v.daum.net/v/20241213183708531
Posted by: annie | Dec 14 2024 18:43 utc | 28
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 14 2024 18:13 utc | 24 The last I heard, Trump wanted ROK to pay for its de facto occupation not end the occupation.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 14 2024 18:01 utc | 18 This cunning defender of imperialism surely knows the imperialist narrative is, ROK is a stable democracy after all, it's all over and Western democracy is vindicated. My comment is against the narrative, making this nonsense a diversion in favor of the imperialist narrative.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 14 2024 18:45 utc | 29
hence, i think that's what turned the tide for yoon party (ppp) members, to vote for impreachment, the plan to assassinate opposition members.
Posted by: annie | Dec 14 2024 18:45 utc | 30
But what is the Biden role in this, b? Yoon the loon surely would not have tried to create a police state without informing the Biden gang. He was their darling. And the Bidens are disrupting traditional plutocratic Democracy in, at least, Georgia, Moldova and Romiania. Surely the destruction of traditional plut Democracy is of great importance to the White West. US power and long term control of the Korean military so it may well have supported, indeed initiated, this lunacy. Which fortunately it was too incompetent to manage, the lawmakers beating the military to the Parlement building.
Posted by: untermench | Dec 14 2024 18:46 utc | 31
Wonder is Nuland impressed at the ripples from her 2014 coup in Kiev?
North Korea has garnered a Defense Pact with the Russian Federation. This kind of upsets the balance in East Asia.
The People's Republic of China has a "No Limits" strategic partnership with the Russian Federation. Kind of upsets the geopolitical balance.
Islamic Republic of Iran to sign a "Treaty (tbc)" with the Russian Federation in early 2025.
[there are other ripples emanating from 2014 .... geopolitical ripples ... in many domains.]
# Looks like the realists in South Korea looked at the neighbours and wisely decided not to get involved in any wars if at all possible. All they had to do was look at Ukraine. Calm waters with PRC and the cousins to the North vs Destruction, devastation of infrastructure, innumerable deaths, and proxy war for Uncle Sam? Only a fool would choose the latter.
As for Uncle Sam's failed 'quisling' - I leave that to the Koreans.
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 14 2024 18:47 utc | 32
also, Han Dong-hoon is not from the opposition, he is leader of ppp party, yoon's own party. so once he flipped (learning of the intent of yoon to assassinate him)it was all down hill from there.
Posted by: annie | Dec 14 2024 18:48 utc | 33
Keme@1724 Dec 14
Possible enough that the Korean Democratic Party is actually somewhat democratic...in part because Korea is an ancient culture and thereby ties are numerous.
One cannot say the same for the like-named party here in this ruptured republic. There is nothing democratic about it...please recall how the DNC faithfully followed orders from the ruling Bank$ters and bitch-slapped the candidacies of both Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard...in order to get the DuPont crime clan's favorite son to be weaseled into the nomination. The $enile One is a mere mouthpiece...and he has long known his appointed role in the game of politrix.
Yeah, it's properly called the Democrat party and I don't know what the hell to use as a label for that other partisan pea in the same pod.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 18:50 utc | 34
UrbanFox@1728 Dec 14
Appears that you are extremely well-informed on the full background of this matter. Thanks for sharing
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 18:54 utc | 35
> But the assembly members did win the race
Being dictator is bad, risky and reprehensible.
Being incompetent airhead dictator is deadly for both you and the people you try to reign over.
The former can be a desperate saving throw. The latter is betrayal of the worst kind.
Good riddance.
Posted by: Arioch | Dec 14 2024 19:02 utc | 36
more interesting gossip: "Ambassador Goldberg cancels meeting with Lee Jae-myung over impeachment article wording"
"It was confirmed on the 13th that the U.S. and China engaged in a fierce behind-the-scenes diplomatic battle over the diplomatic phrases in the impeachment bill"
Among the six parties' proposed 'Impeachment of President Yoon Seok-yeol' (the opposition party removed the relevant phrases from the second impeachment bill):
"Under the pretext of so-called value diplomacy, they have ignored geopolitical balance, antagonized North Korea, China, and Russia, insisted on a bizarre Japan-centered foreign policy, and appointed people with pro-Japanese ties to key government posts, thereby inviting isolation in Northeast Asia and triggering the crisis of war, thereby neglecting their duty to secure national security and protect their people."
lots on interesting stuff:
https://www.hankookilbo.com/News/Read/A2024121310150002193
Posted by: annie | Dec 14 2024 19:04 utc | 37
@Don Firineach | Dec 14 2024 18:47 utc | 32
Looks like the realists in South Korea looked at the neighbours and wisely decided not to get involved in any wars ... and proxy war for Uncle Sam? Only a fool would choose the latter.
@Posted by: Jack M | Dec 14 2024 18:01 utc | 19
Imagine for a moment what would happen if this kind of plot took place in Finland...
No need for a plot:
Finland has never seen a World War they did not want to want to get involved in.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Dec 14 2024 19:09 utc | 38
Japan plays a heavy part in South Korean politics because there is resentment over the forced labor including the "comfort" women and the desire for reparations and an apology. whereas the US priority, which apparently Yoon and much of his party agree, is Japan friendly.
the United States this week asked the opposition party about the background . This is because the United States has mentioned the improvement of South Korea-Japan relations and South Korea-US-Japan security cooperation as the greatest diplomatic achievements made while working with the Yoon Seok-yeol government , and the opposition party viewed this as a reason for impeachment. The United States is asking through various channels whether the opposition parties are so opposed to South Korea-US relations and South Korea-US-Japan cooperation that they would list them as reasons for impeachment.
Posted by: annie | Dec 14 2024 19:12 utc | 39
Roland@1837 Dec 14
Useful general sketching of the bank$ters' designated attack-dog, the U$$A and its shenanigans across various countries which are currently under the imperial boot...while their populations are increasingly restive about the loss of national independence by their "obedient" prostiticians...policies of bribery and blackmail (Epsteinization) are pretty effective that way.
Primary case in point is the So-called Bundesrepublik of Germany. No way do they actually represent the wishes of the Deutscher Leute (the German people). Why? Even here on MoA, numerous posters still do not comprehend that Germany remains as an OCCUPIED nation.
Reason for that cute excuse is that when Gross Admiral Karl Doenitz surrendered the entire Wehrmacht...all branches...at that day in May the German people had NO government. The Hitler regime had fallen. Result of that reality was that with a bit of lawfare legerdemain , the Allied powers, most specifically the new Hegemon, the U$$A still has occupational forces in Germany.
No PEACE TREATY has ever been signed by the four Allied powers of Britain, France, the U.$. and the former Soviet Union. As the primary heir of the USSR; the Russian Union might sooner than later, take these facts and ask for the formation of a genuine German government...one which does not take its orders from the now doddering Hegemon.
Such a geopolitical coup on the part of the Russians could potentially dwarf that one which unlawfully overthrew the legitimate, elected government of Ukraine in 2014. Such a coup would be celebrated by the remnants of the Ukrainian population and widely hailed by a huge proportion of the over-ruled people of Germany.
Yeah, think about that. Reality is that German politicians realize that their nation is NOT independent and that they are obliged by the occupying power to play by their "Rules Based Ordure". So they toe the line and ACT like they actually are the representative government of the German people.
So, in case all this is all new to you, now you know. Do your own research. The facts are there for all to discern.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:29 utc | 40
Petri Krohn@1909 Dec 14
Afraid you have shot past your level of historical understanding by stating that Finland has never viewed a World War without getting involved. In the Winter war of '39-40, Finland was given an ultimatum by Stalin that they would be obliged to surrender their heavily industrialized district in the Viborg area and also a naval base on their southern coast; along with lands along Lake Lagoda, most of that latter being within the USSR.
So as with any nation with "Sisu" (guts) the doughty Finns fought back. Stalin had good geopolitical reasons for his demands; however, he went about it in his usual dictatorial manner. He might could have suggested a neutralization agreement...along with some economic goodies such as iron, coal and wheat.
That which Stalin feared was being attacked by the Germans and he desperately wanted to salvage the city which had once been called St. Petersburg, then Petrograd, then Leningrad and ultimately in more recent years, once again become St.Petersburg. Also important to Russian defense plans was the warm-water (relatively speaking) port of Murmansk, eastwards from northernmost Norway. Stalin and his advisers were quite apt at geopolitical perception.
Thus, WWII began and Finland felt obligated to somewhat side with the Germans...mainly in the interest of rescuing their lost lands. THATwas the ONLY World War in which Finland was involved as a national, independent state.
A reasonably deep understanding of both history and geography...along with specifically military history...is most useful to more fully conceptualize geopolitical reality.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:48 utc | 41
Annie@1912 Dec 14
Ultimately, the division of the nation of Korea must be resolved. It is to the benefit of the ruling Bank$ter crime clans and their U$$A designated attack-dog, to keep Korea a divided land. The Yoon lunacy was all about maintaining the status quo of a divided Korea...one in which he and his fellow sold-out cronies would continue to thrive.
Cooler and more clarified heads in South Korea are staunchly opposed to further wars with the north. After all, a huge chunk of the entire population happens to live in over-constipated/concentrated Seoul...a mere 20 odd miles from the Demarkation line between those two still hostile brother states. Vulnerabililty of their capital and largest city is ever on the minds of thoughtful South Koreans.
Perhaps this recent incident will buttress those cooler heads in both Koreas, in order to take steps in the direction of Korean unification.
Let it be.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:57 utc | 42
was this attempt not exactly at the same time as terrorists assailed (off topic) Syria? The same time that terrorists were moving into (off topic) Pakistan? Is there not a significant amount of off topic action in Pakistan to merit discussion somewhere?
It is almost as if someone pushed all the panic buttons at once,
or else another actor in the wings said "Go."
terrorists come in so handy for devious cowards.
Posted by: Not Ewe | Dec 14 2024 20:28 utc | 43
certain I left out several meaningful events elsewhere at near the same moment. coincidence theories required.
Posted by: Not Ewe | Dec 14 2024 20:30 utc | 44
Were the NEOCONS trying to wrap a war around Trumpy's neck?
Posted by: circumspect | Dec 14 2024 16:49 utc | 2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, yes, of course. We don't even need to be circumspect about this; it is for the same reason that Biden's neo-con clowns are trying everything to start a war between Russia and NATO before Trump takes office; they are desperately trying to force Trump into a war at any cost. What is amazing is that it is so obvious what they are doing, I guess Biden really wants to go out with a bang.
President Putin is quite correct in being very circumspect, and so is Kim Jong Un for not taking the bait dished out by the South Korean would-be dictator.
Posted by: Ed | Dec 14 2024 20:33 utc | 45
"Finland has never seen a World War they did not want to get involved in."
@aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:48 utc | 41
<revanchist BS>
I see your knowledge of Finnish history is quite limited. Stalin did NOT demand Viborg in 1939.
Finnish hunger for World Wars extends as far back as the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648) and the Great Northern War (1700–1721). For World War I enthusiasm, see the Jäger Movement.
Unfortunately this is off topic, and would need far more time and space. Better to continue in some other thread.
A reasonably deep understanding of both history and geography...along with specifically military history...is most useful to more fully conceptualize geopolitical reality.
I agree.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Dec 14 2024 20:35 utc | 46
Provoking war with a nuclear power minutes away from most of your major cities just to give you a reason to invoke martial doesn’t seem like a well thought out plan
Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | Dec 14 2024 20:36 utc | 47
@ annie | Dec 14 2024 18:45 utc | 30
» the plan to assassinate opposition members «
Yup. I think that's the lynch pin. That's probably why he committed suicide.
Another question is what this is all about. Speculative, but I think the US wanted to marshal Korea's MiC for its own ends and needed to circumvent the people of Korea, something they've been doing since Sept 1945 (refused to meet with the provisional government and the resistance; preferred to do business with the Japanese occupier as the legitimate authority).
Posted by: webej | Dec 14 2024 20:40 utc | 48
The US would like to use South Korea as a source of munitions and weaponry and to create trouble for China and Russia, i.e., a sort of mirror image of what North Korea is to Russia
Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 14 2024 17:08 utc | 6
---------------------------------------------------------
What the US wants and what the People of South Korea want are not the same. I think the South Koreans are taking this "liberal democracy" thing seriously, while you can bet the US isn't.
Posted by: Ed | Dec 14 2024 20:40 utc | 49
Is there not a significant amount of off topic action in Pakistan to merit discussion somewhere?
It is almost as if someone pushed all the panic buttons at once,
or else another actor in the wings said "Go."
terrorists come in so handy for devious cowards.Posted by: Not Ewe | Dec 14 2024 20:28 utc | 43
You could try posting it here... it's bit of a mish-mash but I'd be interested to hear. Last news from Pakistan I remember was them and the Iranians mutually destroying each others Balochi separatists.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Dec 14 2024 20:55 utc | 51
Drawing up plans … grandpa Joe
JAKE SULLIVAN: Thank you, Karine. Thanks, everybody. Hope you didn’t have too much trouble getting in this morning.
It’s really great to be here at Camp David. And today, President Biden will host Prime Minister Kishida of Japan and President Yoon of South — of the Republic of Korea for a historic trilateral summit.
The summit marks the first visit here to Camp David by a foreign leader — and, in this case, it will be two foreign leaders — in the Biden administration.
It’s actually the first foreign leader visit to Camp David since 2015. And in keeping with the time-honored tradition of hosting significant, consequential diplomatic meetings at Camp David, this summit signifies a new era of trilateral cooperation for the U.S., Japan, and the ROK.
https://kr.usembassy.gov/081923-press-gaggle-by-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan/
Yoon basically had to be impeached, or coup scheming would have continued.
Posted by: jayc | Dec 14 2024 21:04 utc | 53
SK is actually the only beachhead the hegemon has in Asia east of Saudi-Arabia. Otherwise they obviously own Japan and various island-bases, but no land power.
When (W-H-E-N) Taiwan is reunited with China the drive for SK and NK to reunify is also going to get stronger beyond today's theoretical/philosophical talks.
Few thought Germany would reunite, although the way it happened was secondary to Soviet Union collapse. Could we see something similar with the hegemonic fall?
Posted by: NorwegianPawn | Dec 14 2024 21:06 utc | 54
@ First Time Poster | Dec 14 2024 17:28 utc | 12
thanks! that makes sense....
@ LightYearsFromHome | Dec 14 2024 17:41 utc | 14
i have never read them.. will check the video.. your comment makes sense too - more craziness is going to be the trend moving forward..
@ urban fox - thanks for your informed posts!
Posted by: james | Dec 14 2024 21:09 utc | 55
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:48 utc | 41 The military strongman of Finland, one Mannerheim, was key general as I understand it in the vicious White Terror that extirpated the Reds in the Finland. As such, he and the Finns were part of the brutal counterrevolutionary intervention by many imperialist nations. Mannerheim was not a formal military dictator but Finland was the kind of democracy imperialists love and was always enormously influential way past his formal political position, near as I can tell. Mannerheim was thus, unsurprisingly, a friend to Nazi Germany. As such he and his co-thinkers in the formally civilian government were never going to try to negotiate with Stalin's USSR. They would never have accepted a non-aggression pact that would have preserved the security of Leningrad, much less one that would have allowed the USSR to trade with Sweden (and through them points west.) Mannerheim et al. were in the bag for Germany. Frankly, given that WWII was even officially underway by fall 1939* the notion that there was a genuine possibility of neutrality and therefore Stalin was a dictatorial aggressive brute for acting like it was WWII is gratuitous anti-Communist prejudice, in my opinion.
*WWII should be dated from the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. Stalin was fighting German and Italian fascism in Spain in 1936 and Japanese fascism in 1939 (look up Nomonhan if you will.) The Japanese did their part in the fascist crusade by invading the rest of China in 1937. The Western imperialists were doing Munich in 1938. The reason for misdating WWII is to pretend that the Non-Aggression Pact of 1939 was a genuine alliance of spiritual friends, a self-amnesty for Munich and selective amnesia about Japan. (There is a case for dating WWII to 1931 when Japan seized Manchuria. But the Guomindang government did not actually control that far north and had little or no interest in fighting there. At least, not until the Xi'an incident of 1936.)
Soviet victories in Belarus and Poland essentially cut off the German forces in Finland by late 1944/45. They were there because Finland was an active ally of Nazi Germany, not just coincidentally fighting an independent war out of simple patriotism. The stranded German forces treated their onetime Finnish hosts with the respec they deserved, leading to a brief contretemps where the Finns felt compelled to fight them. Puppies may want to run with the big dogs but they can get trampled or mauled to death when they try. Current Finnish policy is in my opinion Continuation War II. Or maybe IV, if you count the civil war and the so-called Winter War.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 14 2024 21:12 utc | 56
A question that I can’t find a straightforward answer for: where does South Korea get its hydrocarbon fuel supplies from?
Reason I ask is because back in 2017 or 2018 some tentative proposals were floated for a Russian/Chinese joint venture to construct and operate a natural gas pipeline through the DPRK to the RoK.
The intention was for the DPRK to gain transit fees, while the RoK got a steady and cheap supply of gas.
Needless to say, the US was implacably opposed to this concept of a Korean Nordstream, so it was never developed further, though there was some talk of terminating the pipeline somewhere on the coast of the North and building a liquefaction plant for export, again bringing economic benefits to the nation.
There isn’t much online these days, a lot of info, links etc. seem to have been scrubbed, but I distinctly remember reading about it.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 14 2024 21:41 utc | 57
> Stalin... might could have suggested a neutralization agreement...along with some economic goodies such as iron, coal and wheat.
> Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:48 utc | 41
Oh, dear, but you know, Finland and USSR had the pact. Just like USSR had with Japan or Germany. Just like everybody and their dogs had with Germany in 1939. USSR was actually the last passenger to jump iunto this departing train.
But tell me, how much did those pacts actually meant in the realities of 1939?
Also, Finland and USSR were not friendly states, they used to support armed incursions into one other's province. Oh, of course, those always were volunteers, but volunteers needed support and permissions, and they always were getting those, both side from the border. Anti-Russian and Anti-communist violence in Finland was no less common than anti-bourgeous violence in USSR.
Also, "Yartsev suggested that Finland cede or lease some islands in the Gulf of Finland along the seaward approaches to Leningrad, but Finland refused". See, the initial demand from USSR was to have a naval base as a forward security post to the city - Finland could well demand "some economic goodies" for leasing uninhabited islands they did not use. Bu Finland did not want goodies, they wanted to f-k russian barbarians up and to showcase how European they are.
It was the common mood then, Finland was not a special case, remember the Polish caricatures of 1938, how they mightily kicked russians out of "civilized Europe" destroying all the mutual defense treaties USSR tried to arrange.
> that they would be obliged to surrender their heavily industrialized district
Not surrender, but trade. Whether the offered price was worth it or not they had full right to decide, but that was not a call to pay out a ransom.
Also, cynically, USSR needed a small but real war to test its armies and weapons against harsh condition and stubborn enemy armed with Hitler's equipment. The war in Mongolia against Japan 5 years ago gave some good lessons, but was not enough. Some changes in soldiers equipment and in tanks development strategy were gained there.
Posted by: Arioch | Dec 14 2024 21:50 utc | 58
@UrbanFox@1728 Dec 14
Appears that you are extremely well-informed on the full background of this matter. Thanks for sharingPosted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 18:54 utc | 35
I would like to add my appreciation for information never imagined until now. Your post led me to look up HID. Do you know if HID has a strong relationship with the CIA? They seem to operate the same way.
Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 14 2024 21:51 utc | 59
> *WWII should be dated from the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935
> Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 14 2024 21:12 utc | 55
Please? Why should we coinsider Ethiopia to be a part of WW2 ?
Also, personally i believe we should consider wars in Europe and Asia as two different wars. But, if we entertain merging them on paper, because USA and some colonial powers participated in both, then i agree it is explicit insult to reason to mark the end of WW2 in Tokyo but not the start of it.
Still, Ethiopia?..
Posted by: Arioch | Dec 14 2024 21:54 utc | 60
even more crazy plan which could have led to war with North Korea:
Which would have immediately meant:
1. ROK/US Combined Forces Command (CFC) (meaning the Pentagon) would have taken control of South Korea
2. The US would effectively be at war with North Korea.
Gee, I wonder if KURT CAMPBELL knows anything about such bizarre activities...
Hold that thought, and listen to what this CNAS co-founder and War Monger had to say at CSIS only a few weeks ago
Keynote Remarks from Kurt Campbell | ROK-U.S. Strategic Forum 2024
Posted by: The Archivist | Dec 14 2024 21:55 utc | 61
Also, so m,any people here decrying the brutal or stupid Stalin for tearing one pact and attacking small Finland in 1939.
Well, i am in the hope everyone of you with the same uncorraptible prudence, and equally often, decried brutal Stalin for attacking small Japan in 1945 after tearing another pact? You did, right?
Posted by: Arioch | Dec 14 2024 21:57 utc | 62
I have no idea of what bias or agenda the writer of this article has but there is some quite detailed reports of who did what and when.
in the early hours of the coup attempt, a source from “the embassy of an allied country” told him Yoon planned to assassinate Han Dong-Hoon, the leader of the president’s ruling party, on the night of the martial law order.
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2024/12/13/was-south-koreas-coup-an-attempt-to-restart-the-korean-war/
Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 14 2024 22:07 utc | 63
46
Cato the uncensored… great handle!
Have you tried using nostr?? As useful as this bar is , there is still censorship here sadly
Posted by: E | Dec 14 2024 22:22 utc | 64
@ The Archivist | Dec 14 2024 21:55 utc | 60
re: . The US would effectively be at war with North Korea.
The US continues to be at war with North Korea, for fifty-odd years now, with an armistice in effect.
Hey, it's been good for profits.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 14 2024 22:39 utc | 65
"It is almost as if someone pushed all the panic buttons at once"
Posted by: Not Ewe | Dec 14 2024 20:28 utc | 43
Yes, far too much to be coincidental. I can't see anything that makes more sense than a Pandora's Box, a giant poison pill for Trump. That kind of thinking seems to fit Biden's gang's psychology - both vindictive and uninterested in strategic consequences.
Posted by: Tom Paine | Dec 14 2024 23:14 utc | 66
South Korean economy also in a spot of bother [h/t nakedcapitalism.com
Korean economy on alert amid rising debt, weak consumption
By Moon Ji-woong, Seo Jung-won, and Yoon Yeon-hae
Concerns about an economic crisis in South Korea are spreading as political unrest, including martial law and impeachment issues, continues.
Maeil Business Newspaper compared five major crises that have affected the economy on Thursday, including the 1997 Asian financial crisis, the 2008 global financial crisis, the 2016 impeachment of former President Park Geun-hye, the 2020 Covid-19 pandemic, and the latest martial law situation under President Yoon Suk Yeol.
The evaluation was based on more than ten economic indicators published by the Bank of Korea (BOK), Statistics Korea, international organizations, and global credit rating agencies.
The analysis showed that the most concerning aspect of the latest crisis is debt.
Read on: https://pulse.mk.co.kr/news/all/11193591
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 14 2024 23:31 utc | 67
aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 19:48 utc | 41 I'm afraid Aristodemos that it is you who needs to become more familiar with Finnish history. Rather than sticking to the wikipedia propagandist angle a quick glance at even something as capitalist yet more objective Britannica tells us something more truthful.
The USSR ultimately won the so-called 'Winter War'. The USSR was always concerned about problems for Leningrad (now St Petersburg) which would occur should the nazis invade Finland via Poland so they asked Finland to swap some Finnish land on the peninsular for other more fertile land. Finland refused and tried to pass this request off as an exercise in imperialism by a major power, which it most certainly was not.
The USSR's concerns were validated by the death of close to a million citizens of Leningrad from starvation after both Finland in the North and the nazis in the South built a siege around Leningrad for 872 days close enough to three years!
Yet even after the defeat of germany's nazis & finland's fascists by the USSR, the people of the Soviet Union didn't go vengeful, instead they prevailed upon Finland to maintain neutrality & never again involve itself with imperialist powers and left it at that. Of course Finland's unconstitutional (neutrality is built into the Finn constitution) entry into nato breaches that agreement. Has Russia turned on Finland for that? No, Russians belong to a mature and sensible society and have decided the same thing as they decided in 1947, that amerika will pass just as the nazis flamed, then sputtered & died, and when all of this nonsense is over Finland & Russia will still be neighbours.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Dec 14 2024 23:46 utc | 68
- Still it's not quite clear why he started this attempt to overthrow the government.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 14 2024 23:51 utc | 69
- Did this guy want to make deep cuts in the budget of South Korean government ?
Posted by: WMG | Dec 14 2024 23:56 utc | 70
https://youtu.be/WtdRv6GT9Zg?feature=shared All i wanna do is take your Money !!
Posted by: Boardindundee | Dec 15 2024 0:00 utc | 71
https://youtu.be/NUC2EQvdzmY?feature=shared Nobody Speak
Posted by: Boardindundee | Dec 15 2024 0:04 utc | 72
Being dictator is bad, risky and reprehensible.Posted by: Arioch | Dec 14 2024 19:02 utc | 36
If the result is trouble, I don't see the point of being a dictator.
Posted by: Leuk | Dec 15 2024 0:15 utc | 73
re: Posted by: WMG | Dec 14 2024 23:51 utc | 68 who said "Still it's not quite clear why he started this attempt to overthrow the government."
&
re: Leuk | Dec 15 2024 0:15 utc | 72 who posts "If the result is trouble, I don't see the point of being a dictator."
Firstly if you follow the abundant links in this thread, particularly those of Annie an original, from its 1st day contributor to Moa & before that and also prolly from its 1st day Billmon's Whiskey Bar, posts to this thread (great to hear from you again Annie, I trust all is goin well in your neck of the woods), you will see this 18 months in the planning coup for what it really is, an attempt by amerika's forces of darkness to stir up trouble in East Asia, in a vain attempt to distract China away from such total support for Russia & the rest of the BRICS alliance, whose sovereignty focussed forays into shock , quelle horreur, independent, thinking has been a major distraction away from the empire's greed, deceit and downright mendacity.
As for Leuk's comment on dictatorship, I'm going to leap to the unjustified conclusion that Leuk's definition of 'dictators' is pretty much the same as the one decades of imperialist propaganda has indoctrinated amerikans with. That is a dictator is an extremely megalomaniacal individual who has decided by some foul and corrupt method to take control of a nation and who makes decisions off his/her own bat to make selfish decisions as a sort of one-man band to the detriment of all in the nation.
This is quite a ridiculous assumption for every tyrant I have observed is faced with making one of two choices. They are either to pal up to the hegemon and institute every demand the hegemon makes (eg Saudi Arabia until the mid twenty-tens - even now the Saudis defer to the great satan on occasion), or, to seize power for a cabal, normally comprised of military leaders & wealthy elites.
In neither case is the 'dictator' operating alone for his/her own selfishness, they are hostages to fortune just like every other leader in this sad parody of popular governance we see all over our old rock.
Dictatorships in the amerikan definition, do not exist and have never existed, those accused of being dictators govern their state in exactly the same manner as leaders in alleged 'democracies' behave - they cater to the needs of an elite few who return the compliment by ensuring the 'dictator' remains in power.
IMO the first step in ridding our planet of these so-called leaders has to be a popular movement demanding the destruction of so called representatives; senators, congress-persons and member of parliament and instead devolve all decision making down to the people who live in the regions which will be most affected by the decision.
It is difficult to get ordinary humans to show an interest by humans in large abstract decisions (which is generally the prelude to making a decision) which does effect particular people in a particular region, but piss easy, to get citizens to take an interest in any decision which will effect their employment, health, accommodation & education. So we get rid of the big over-arching legislation which is only a setup for bad things to happen to some region somewhere, and instead only decide about immediate issues for those who will cop the result.
The patriot act is a classic example of this, rather than allow central government to make generalised determinations about who can access data from public libraries on what people read, have the citizens of the area this library service decide whether they want to be spied upon.
Rather handing out dc manufactured decisions about who across amerika needs to be held without trial for an indefinite period, then questioned over whether they desire a global caliphate by way of an open season on all followers of Islam, ask the neighbors of the alleged 'follower of fundie Islam whether they believe the bloke up the road who cuts his grass on Saturdays as you do, whether they believe their Islamic neighbors should be tortured into submission.
Obviously any actual move to grassroots level decision-making requires considerable thought and discussion but the essence is that as long as we stick to so-called representative democracy all our leaders are in fact dictators.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Dec 15 2024 1:17 utc | 74
Debsisdead@2346 Dec 14
Please now. I almost never access the deeply controlled and corrupted Wickedpedia. The information I used did not not need to emanate from any encyclopedia; as I've studied military history since being in the teens.
As for Britannica, it may have deteriorated intellectually and culturally since the year when my now burned up in a devastating fire at the old homestead...my much missed 1937 edition, beautifully bound and in its original mahogany case, was lost.
I've read that their best ever edition was somewhere in the 20's as British scholarship in that era was the class of the English speaking world. But that sadly missed 37 ed was pretty damned good...and not overburdened by technocological .evanescence...rather was a superb generalized source for cultural, historical, geographical, literary and artistic information.
Please inform me as to the "more fertile land" which you cited as the purported swap by the USSR. As the Viborg region was highly industrialized and culturally advanced; I would be extremely skeptical as to whether any Karelian lands (Finnish speaking BTW) were more fertile than the Viborg region.
Informational only:The tiny village of Debs, Minnesota was developed early in the 20th Century by railroad unionists who lived in the general area. Eugene V. Debs was their hero.
Some years ago I joined a group of friends and acquaintances several years back...all of us being opposed to the most recent war on terra by the U$$A regime. We participated in the annual Debs Fourth of July parade with signs, banners, leaflets and stick-pins celebrating the town's namesake. As I live less than a two hour drive from that little burg; it was a well-invested Fourth.
Secondly, the late Willy Sandstrom was a contributor to my monthly newspaper. His surname indicates his grandfather was a Swede-Finn as was my maternal, maternal great-grandfather. That Sandstrom grandfather of his was close friends with yet another SwedeFinn name of Arvo Hallberg. Both of those men were activists in the 1906 miner's strike on the Mesabi Iron Range. The mine owners did a lockdown and promptly brought in literally shiploads of Croats, Bosniacs, Serbians and even Italians to effectually break the strike.
Hallberg eventually changed his name to Gus Hall. Presumably you are conversant with that name and his place in American history.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 15 2024 1:24 utc | 75
Assassination plots, operatives wearing DPRK uniforms. . Seems that more than enough info is coming out to charge Yoon with serious crimes and then a long prison term. Forget about impeachment. I'm thinking of a spartan prison cell for him, a knife on the table next to a note that says 'you know what to do.'
Posted by: Mike R | Dec 15 2024 2:53 utc | 76
Its China's fault , donchaknow ?
Yoon defended his short-lived imposition of martial law, during which the president claimed that opposition parties blocked a revision to anti-espionage laws despite two separate instances in which Chinese nationals filmed military installations and the National Intelligence Service in Korea.
Posted by: denk | Dec 15 2024 3:19 utc | 77
tO GET some perspective...
Trump on SK,
They won't do it without our approval. They do nothing without our approval."
Posted by: denk | Dec 15 2024 3:50 utc | 78
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 14 2024 17:50 utc | 16
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2024 18:54 utc | 35
Posted by: james | Dec 14 2024 21:09 utc | 54
Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 14 2024 21:51 utc | 58
-------------
No problem. Happy to pitch in some useful stuff.
On the question of HID:
Maybe but they're military and hence closer to the Pentagon defacto & de jure.
The KCIA seems to have been more the CIA's local proxy historically.
Each branch of the ROK Armed Forces had its own intelligence unit that carried out secret missions in North Korea.
Both sides carried out similar operations, with North Korean actions being more visible to the public, throughout the Cold War.
UDU (Underwater Demolition Unit) was the cover name for Navy's unit.
Army had the HID (Headquarters of Intelligence Detachment), Air Force had the AISU (Airforce Intelligence Service Unit), and the Marine Corps had the MIU (Marine Intelligence Unit).
These units were later merged into a single command under Defence Intelligence Command (DIC).
They carried out numerous covert ops in North Korea well into early 2000s, with later ops becoming more focused on reconnaissance than direct action.
According to official government reports, total of 7,726 operatives did not return from their missions in North Korea.
(It looks like many surviving members felt betrayed by their nation for not being properly rewarded for their services and carried out protests in early to mid 2000s. There are videos available on youtube - apparently any Korean protest video that involves flamethrowers are likely to be from such a protest by these guys).
So HID is officially abolished, on paper. Yet the unit still exists in practise as a separate entity within a combined Spec Ops command structure. They also might have an axe to grind collectively, against the civilian government.
The US state as a whole is riddled throughout South Korea. So the Pentagon, State Department or any acronym you care to name could have a hidden hand here.
Posted by: Urban Fox | Dec 15 2024 4:16 utc | 80
It occurred to me during this martial law, that they might have used this short period to do some other extra-constitutional thing within those few short hours. Apparently, they did send soldiers to the National Electoral Commissions offices for several hours, and did seize cell phones of people from the NEC. I saw some video on JP tv of the soldiers entering server rooms, etc. I am unsure what it all means .
Posted by: Alpha | Dec 15 2024 5:57 utc | 81
In an ideal world the impeachment will succeed, the president will be shot and we'll have a new government representing the will of the majority of the people to seek rapprochement and peaceful coexistence with the North. Of course, we don't live in an ideal world. At least I can hope.
Posted by: Tichy | Dec 15 2024 6:25 utc | 82
Jeremy Rhymings-Lang ( Dec 14 2024 21:41 utc | 56 ):
Here's a 2020 EIA (US government) background paper on South Korean energy including hydrocarbons that looks decent enough for a rough idea (and perhaps why the answer isn't easily available):
www.eia.gov/international/content/analysis/countries_long/South_Korea/background.pdf
To answer briefly:
Open market/"everywhere" and commercial joint projects. This goes to the many South Korean refineries and they sell/export to more places than South Korea. There are several main companies. Some of it continues out to South Korean national sellers through a state-controlled system with a national set price (for those companies, not the end consumer where all kinds of details likely come into play and thus also competition).
For the exact details it looks like one would have to go through the various importing companies and all the international projects and add it all up and then it still would be kind of misleading since there's a lot of export of refined products.
The whole thing looks rather ingenious and sensible imo —but I'm only reading a paper and don't know anything.
(Now I wonder if Japan does something similar —but more limited— with their companies.)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Using as an example the content quoted by annie ( Dec 14 2024 19:04 utc | 37 ) and many other details (not all of which needs to be true or 100% correct) should make it evident how extremely deeply involved the US is (and always is) in South Korea.
China and North Korea also pay very close attention of course.
Please be aware that I'm not saying the White House (they might not have known, not really any point telling Biden anything) but instead saying the US (certainly the CIA with or without NSA, Foggy Bottom, and so on).
In addition whether the US was the prime instigator or not is almost irrelevant; they would have been "in" as early as possible, if nothing else then in a supervisory role, and they would have said yes/no and insisted on whatever details suited them best.
It could also very easily be the case that the US changed their minds halfway through due to other developments (I find it highly likely this is the case; many things have happened in Korea recently and North Korea most likely already knew or suspected enough about something being planned and this in turn may have become evident to others and eventually to the US involvement) and thus they (the US) were not only instrumental in the coup but possibly also in preventing its success to avoid others (China. Russia, North Korea, various South Korean groups, possibly even Japan) capitalizing on it for their own benefit!
Even with all that is more or less known so far it has been a very lucky escape for South Korea.
Only my opinions, I don't know anything more than anyone else and live on a different continent.
Ps. I kind of disagree with anyone calling Yoon extreme etc. because in terms of South Korea he's not that unusual (as history clearly illustrates; if anything he might actually be less so) and while he is marginalized now he sure wasn't when he won the (s)election and wouldn't have been if the coup succeeded.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 15 2024 6:25 utc | 83
Let's look at the recent Taiwan elections. The leading candidate was pro china pro business. The opposition all joined forces to defeat then and be strongly pro empire. Erdoğan even had a similar experience. South Korea is not immune. These are the global spot fires empire will continue to light , without even a care for the outcomes. The only goal is to keep BRIC+ chasing in a reactive state. Destabilisation. Delay disrupt. It's all they got other than nuke war now the trumpeter gave the game away with his sanction the world policy
Posted by: Hankster | Dec 15 2024 7:32 utc | 84
Posted by: Debsisdead | Dec 14 2024 23:46 utc | 67The USSR was always concerned about problems for Leningrad (now St Petersburg) which would occur should the nazis invade Finland via Poland so they asked Finland to swap some Finnish land on the peninsular for other more fertile land.
Invading Finland through Poland?! How would that work? No, that was not the issue at hand during the negotiations between Finland and the Soviet Union in 1939.
The Soviets (according to Stalin) feared that either the German or English navy (whichever would have won the war) would use the Gulf of Finland, passing by Hanko, and from there go on to the Soviet Union, and that is why they made a demand on the Hanko Peninsula as well as some other islands on the Baltic Sea, (as well as lands in the north, Petsamo for example, though this obviously had nothing to do with the Gulf of Finland), not just the area in Karjala...
It is true that we were offerered a swap of lands (even more land than what we were to give, 5529 km2 vs 2761 km2) but the lands offered were certainly *not* more fertile. The Karjalankannas was far more fertile (and industrious) than Repola and Porajärvi.
Posted by: jure | Dec 15 2024 7:56 utc | 85
Smartest thing for S Korea to do now ask Russia to supply gas via N Korea and pay transit fee to them.
No better guarantee for peace
re : aristodemos | Dec 15 2024 1:24 utc | 74
Well I am sorry my attempt to inject a fact into your description of the conflict between Finland & the USSR that IMO needed correction, may not have been received in the manner I posted it. I have no doubt that most Finns are decent humans but that isn't who we're talking about here.
I generally agree with what you post Aristodemos which is why I kept that part of my post to facts.
Here is an article called "From allies to opponents. Conservatives facing fascism in Finland in the 1930s" which describes interwar euro fascism in general & fascism in Finland in particular.
"The reputation of the Finnish right wing between the World Wars is generally not very positive. The right wing is considered to have been pro-German, reactionary, illiberal, only in limited sense democratic, and generally old-fashioned. Even though the conservative right wing was allowed to live on after 1944, it was effectively prevented from holding any position of power."
Although during the 1930's Finland was governed by a social democrat style administration imo aka neoliberal, an uprising by fascist forces impressed many conservative pols to do deals with them. The fascists were virulently anti-communist & disliked the USSR most of all, so that via media & conservative opposition the government became equally critical of the USSR painting itself into a corner which "made not standing up to the filthy commies, impossible".
Hmm, may have seen that in other places more than once or twice.
The next link is to an article "Centennial Story of Finland Part 3: Interwar Instability 1927–1937"
"The Depression had a major impact on European nations, and the decade turned out to be a challenging time for young democracies like Finland. Many nations were challenged by extreme right and extreme left movements. As in many European countries during the interwar period, Finland saw the rise of its own far right movement.The Lapua Movement used violent tactics to suppress and intimidate left-wing sympathizers. The movement succeeded in pressuring parliament to enact the so-called “communist laws”, which effectively banned Communism in Finland from 1930 to 1944. The leaders of the movement radicalized and hoped to ban the Social Democrats altogether. When the government did not agree on this demand, the Lapua movement tried to stage an armed coup in the town of Mäntsälä.
Look, it is really difficult to find an honest appraisal of the history of incidents that the USSR was involved with during the period of Secretary Joseph Stalin. The poison that was spread by nazis, then USuk was bad enough, but after that opportunist slug called N Kruschev made his speech denouncing Stalin (for purely personal political purpose, the man who gave Crimea to Ukraine in order to make the Ukie Party bosses in Kiev feel powerful by deciding who got the best dacha on the Black Sea, decided the masses were still too enamoured of Comrade Stalin for his liking as Soviet leader.
If you wade through all the surrounding dross much of it from BBC Moscow Bureau devoted to enlander propaganda read by a semi-famous england actor, and look a search of You Tube such as 'funeral Joseph Stalin" will turn up a few chunks of a Russian made documentary show people's reaction to Stalin funeral all over the USSR.
I would put a link in but I'm at the limit already. The movie simply called "State Funeral" was put together by a couple of Italians from news footage taken by Soviet journalists is available in some of the more interesting parts of the net. Not to say I don't respect Khruschev's work during the Battle of Stalingrad but that conflict was won by General Vasily Chuikov's stubborn refusal to surrender that last few feet of Stalingrad, combined with Field Marshal Georgy Zhukov's artfully constructed cauldron around the nazi 6th Army.
Anyway speaking of Italians Dominic Losurdo has written imo the most accessible, objective history of that period in Soviet history, called "Stalin: History and critique of a Black Legend" reading it does force the reader to reassess much of the nonsense about so-called 'Stalinist Russia' they have acquired by way of indoctrination.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Dec 15 2024 9:49 utc | 87
Posted by: Keme | Dec 14 2024 17:24 utc | 10
The descendants of the elites who collaborated with the Japanese during their long imperialist occupation of Korea, who cannot accept popular governance as represented by the Democratic Party.
Nah. Any account that doesn't include the USA is flawed. SK is a vassal state. Perhaps our leaders thought that war in the Korean Peninsula was a good move to engage the rising powers, much like they reactivated the Syrian front in response to Oct. 7th. Having a military dictatorship and martial law in SK could have been a first step in that direction.
Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Dec 15 2024 10:07 utc | 88
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 14 2024 18:47 utc | 32
Wonder is Nuland impressed at the ripples from her 2014 coup in Kiev?
You give too much credit to the fat hag.
Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Dec 15 2024 10:21 utc | 89
Philly ( Dec 15 2024 7:16 utc | 85 ):
Yes that all seems sensible to me.
It's a bit difficult to describe the whole thing about whether something is extreme or not since in this case it both is and isn't.
The gut feeling is that any government doing a coup against itself or others should be considered extreme, but then how useful is it to say that when it isn't unusual, and then what about all the other governments that don't need to do it or ever think about it because they're already controlling everything/all the big parties to begin with (as is the case for most of the west), or all the governments where there is no significant opposition (internal or external) or where fighting/in-fighting would be hidden from public view?
So this question is perhaps not all that meaningful :)
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 15 2024 15:25 utc | 90
SK goons kicked out grandpa grandma from their ancestral homes.
gringo wanted another military base targeting China.
Antiwar activists called SK embassy
This is no way to treat your grandpa
SK embassy
Call your own govn, they made us do this !
Trump
They dont do nuthin unless we say so
Posted by: denk | Dec 15 2024 15:46 utc | 91
Posted by: Arioch | Dec 14 2024 21:54 utc | 60 Why Ethiopia? Because WWII was the fascist crusade to re-divide the world and destroy the communist/working class threat, two goals that can be separated in words but not in reality. Fascist Italy conquering Ethiopia was the bloody opening round of that fascist crusade. It is commonplace now to re-define fascism, so as to deny that Japan (or even Spain and Portugal!) are not called fascist. I do not think this dismissal of the contemporary understanding is justified.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 15 2024 16:27 utc | 92
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 14 2024 21:41 utc | 57
Found in under a minute via simple ddg search and eyeballing top 10 results who have delivered such data in the past.
fwiw 2023 SK oil imports by source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/883901/south-korea-crude-oil-import-share-by-country-of-origin/
In short: SA:30%, USA:12.5%, UAE:10%, KW:8%, Iraq:7%, Qatar:5.5%, KZ:3% MX:2.5%, AU:2%, BR:1%
dated: 2022 SK lng imports (#3 in world) by source:
https://www.eia.gov/international/content/analysis/countries_long/South_Korea/south_korea.pdf
In short: AU:25%, Qatar:21%,USA:13%,Malaysia:12%,Oman:10%,Indonesia:7%,RU:4%,other:8%
BTW if you're wondering about coal (2021):
AU:49%, Indo:17%, ru:17% (probably changed),CA:8%,africa:3%,other,5%
Take for whatever you think it's worth.
Posted by: knighthawk | Dec 15 2024 16:44 utc | 93
Posted by: WMG | Dec 14 2024 23:56 utc | 70
---
Nah, he wanted to grab unrestricted power and then sell weapons to Ukr, start crap with neighbors, and generally be free to just do as the vassal's masters instructed as well as whatever he wanted domestically.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 15 2024 6:25 utc | 84
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Damn I should have read the whole thread first. Apologies for the semi dupe response\link about the imports. Share the view there is no version of this that didn't have at a minimum, the nod from elements of us security state. People of SK dodged a bullet, for now, we'll see if it lasts.
Posted by: knighthawk | Dec 15 2024 17:03 utc | 94
- South Korea also is one of the countries with the highest debt-to-GDP ratio.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 15 2024 18:24 utc | 95
"Kim has since tried to commit suicide."
Or: Kim has since been subject to being "suicided," lest he spill the beans about far this failed putsch goes ... straight back to Washington DC.
Posted by: ak74 | Dec 15 2024 22:37 utc | 96
Here's Garland Nixon riffing on the NJ drone hysteria:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVS0-slbl_U
My guess: the US is training Ukrainians in New Jersey to use drones. So the next escalation against Russia might involve a massive swarm of UAVs.
Pantsirs used to be Russia's very effective primary defense against the little aerial vehicles. But due to the recent ATACMS assault, we know that some kinds of electronic warfare is effective against at least the current versions of the Pantsirs, and the Russians probably haven't had the time to improve them. That country is now vulnerable to a drone attack; I am sure that the neocons running the Bidenless Administration know this and will do something utterly insane.
Posted by: Cyril | Dec 16 2024 0:50 utc | 97
Oops, my previous message was a reply to
LightYearsFromHome | Dec 14 2024 17:41 utc | 14
Posted by: Cyril | Dec 16 2024 0:52 utc | 98
Knighthawk ( Dec 15 2024 17:03 utc | 96 ):
Absolutely no problem, nothing rude about it, instead a big thank you for adding more recent and more helpful information for everybody :)
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 16 2024 1:15 utc | 99
- This atricle was posted by "Moon of Alabama" in the previous weekly wrap-up and gives us an overview of what is going on in South Korea. This article pefectly fits the strategy of the US Empire. This article removes all doubts. South Korea's relationship with "difficult". It fears China, hasn't good relations with Japan.
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2024/12/13/was-south-koreas-coup-an-attempt-to-restart-the-korean-war
Posted by: WMG | Dec 16 2024 16:00 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
thanks b..
who thought up this wacky idea?? was it him, or someone else??
also, what's with the drones flying over northeastern usa??
some things don't make sense on the surface and require a deeper analysis/answer..
Posted by: james | Dec 14 2024 16:43 utc | 1