Russia Retaliates For ATACMS Strike - Improves Trolling
Those who were waiting for another Oreshnik strike, in response to the U.S. ATACMS attack on a strategic air plane factory in the Russian city of Taganrog, will be disappointed by this:
Statement by Russian Defence Ministry
On 11 December 2024, from the from the territory of Ukraine the AFU delivered a strike by six U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles at the military airfield near Taganrog.In response to the use of U.S.-made long-range weapons, the Russian Armed Forces delivered mass strikes by high-precision air- and sea-based weapons and attack drones at Ukrainian fuel and power infrastructure facilities ensuring operation of the defence industry.
The goal of the strike has been achieved. All the targets have been engaged.
The 'response' has been successful. There is then no additional need to follow up with another Oreshnik strike.
Ukraine has confirmed the success of the strike:
Russia deals 'massive blow' to Ukraine's thermal power plants, energy company says
Russia targeted DTEK's thermal power plants during a mass aerial attack on Dec. 13, damaging their equipment, the company said in a statement.Moscow's forces launched around 90 missiles and 200 drones in one of its largest mass attacks on Ukraine's power grid as the winter is setting in.
"DTEK thermal power plants were attacked. According to preliminary data, there were no casualties," the company said. The plants' equipment was "seriously damaged," with energy sector employees already working on repairs.
Interestingly the strikes hit mostly in west-Ukraine where electricity and gas from the EU is imported into Ukraine (machine translation):
There is serious damage. According to our source on the energy market, the Burshtyn and Prydniprovska TPPs were damaged (which DTEK indirectly confirmed by reporting equipment damage at one of its thermal power plants), key substations in Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Lviv and other regions, and power lines throughout the country.Ukrenergo has already announced tougher light restrictions. According to the current situation, there are currently three out of six outage queues. "This means that half the country is without electricity," says energy market expert Oleg Popenko. In Odessa, additional restrictions were introduced. "The situation there is very serious, people will sit for some time without electricity for 7-11 hours," Popenko said.
But the risks have increased not only in electricity, but also in gas and heating, as the Russian Federation has again hit the gas infrastructure.
"If there are interruptions in gas supply, the situation with electricity (since TPP and CHPP operate on gas) and heating will sharply worsen. At minus 10 degrees, which meteorologists promise us for a day, the average panel can stand without heating for 36-40 hours, then the system will need to be completely repaired. That is, high-rise buildings can become uninhabitable," says Popenko.
Ukraine had to lower the output of 5 of its 9 nuclear power plants as some relevant substations got it. The unified electricity system of the country is falling apart into islands of generation and consumption. Areas with little generation capacity and high consumption (Odessa) will have the biggest problems.
---
In comments 'Drifter' mentions a Russian quip about North Korean soldiers in Russia:
Telegram post from 12 hours ago - Yandex machine translation from Russian. Voenkor Kotenok posted the first report (I have found) suggesting actual (limited) use of elite Korean special forces in Kursk a week ago.
...Military commander KotenokPlekhovo, which was liberated on December 6 in the Kursk direction, was indeed taken by Korean SSR fighters. We passed 2 kilometers through a minefield, broke into the settlement with lightning speed and destroyed the occupation contingent of the ukrovermakht. The operation took about 2.5 hours. They took their "200" and "300" with them.
According to some information, there were no prisoners. They will not take it in the future.
@voenkorKotenok
Nice trolling I'd say, with -of course- zero evidence.
Funny how some people are falling for it.
Posted by b on December 13, 2024 at 16:59 UTC | Permalink
next page »How is this a retaliation for the ATACMS strike that doesn't target western military? Without that it just shows the West it can get away with anything.
Posted by: quackalist | Dec 13 2024 17:07 utc | 2
No disappointment. Lights out (temporarily). Central Bankers have the World by the nuts.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 13 2024 17:07 utc | 3
As I predicted... The respons was the same as always. Ukraine loses power a couple of hours. US, UK and France could continue hiting Russia without any risk at all.
Posted by: Rageman | Dec 13 2024 17:10 utc | 4
- A strike on a NATO base in Poland would have made more sense becaus e that would have been a severe warning. But this strike is also devastating.
- Well. Now european countries have to prepare themselves for more ukrainian refugees.
@B: Any significant news about the ukrainian incursion towards Kursk ? I think / assume that Russia is in no hurry to (completely) destroy those ukrainian troops. It can be exploited to further weaken the ukrainian troops putting more pressure on the ukrainian supply lines consisting of troops and material. It would have made more sense to withdraw all those troops from Kursk/Russia.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:12 utc | 5
Some muppet asked in another comment thread why Oreshnik wasn't used. Anything to disqualify Russia's capability to do whatever it wants on the battlefield.
Showing off weaponry is a very Western approach because the weapons being used on CNN are used for branding for when the MIC goes to get contracts. It has little to do with economy or practicality and everything to do with profit-seeking.
Russia has everything it needs to raze Ukraine (and all of Western Europe many times over). It does not want a failed state in Western Ukraine or to create a legacy of annihilation as the Americans do.
The whole point of the battle between the hegemony and the Axis is to be a contrast between anti-human and pro-human.
The Iranians, Chinese, and Russians are NOT the British, Americans, or Germans. Not materially, philosophically, ethically, or spiritually. Using a Western lens to analyze the action of the Axis is like looking through a telescope from the wrong end.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:14 utc | 6
- A strike on a NATO base in Poland would have made more sense becaus e that would have been a severe warning. But this strike is also devastating.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:12 utc | 5
############
Make sense to who?
That's an escalation as the war is in the process of winding down in an enormous Russian victory.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:16 utc | 7
- To be more precise: If Russia wants to occupy the Ukraine east of the Dnipro river then the last thing one would do is to destroy all electricity infrastructure west of the Dnepre river. It's then best to destroy all the infrastructure west of the Dnipre river.
Alastair Crooke:
- The Biden administration wants to make things as difficult (in the Ukraine) as possible for the incoming Trump administration.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:18 utc | 8
Study: 4 out of 5 trolls are regular MSNBC viewers over 80 years of age
Posted by: nwwoods | Dec 13 2024 17:19 utc | 9
Some muppets actually think Russia could beat Ukraine whenever it like, but doesn't for some mega complicated reason. And that the whole NATO would loose against Russia. Eventhough Putin himself said on several occations that they wouldn't have a chance without going nuclear.
Posted by: Rageman | Dec 13 2024 17:20 utc | 10
Damaging and disrupting the grid network indirectly attacks Europe as well, as the Ukrainian grid operators scramble to import electricity to make up the shortfalls via the cross-border interconnectors.
The strain makes itself felt in the electricity spot-price markets.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 17:21 utc | 11
A better response would be to hit European gas supplies in return for strikes on Russian fuel and energy systems. Only do it better! Announce that henceforth any natural gas ships to NATO countries will be used as an IED do destroy port facilities (about 15 kt of boom.) It wouldn't hurt to throttle the pipelines to Europe also.
I bet it won't take more than 1. When the European banks collapse you have a chance the American banks get towed down with them.
Posted by: Trumpeter | Dec 13 2024 17:23 utc | 12
Well done: https://www.rt.com/russia/609229-overview-situation-on-front/
Posted by: jared | Dec 13 2024 17:23 utc | 13
The object is to prove to the ordinary Ukrainians that they can NOT win and it is going to get more and more uncomfortable for them. That and the increasing death count might force them to do something about the situation. The zeles at the top who are cashing in, should decide to cash out and leave while they can. Particularly as the Trump-US wants to know where the money has all gone to. (Probably Delaware !)
Apparently the Russians, via a drone, also took out a train earlier. So transport inside Uraine will get steadily worse. Someone had a good idea (sorry forgot name) on an earlier thread, that another object is that the NPP's will have to be totally shut down progressively if the electricity supplies are reduced. Reduces the danger of a very nasty accident.
I wonder if the Russians will also respond asymmetrically with retaliation against American/Western military, industrial, and related assets in other parts of the world, including inside of their countries.
This retaliation of course would be done covertly, with plausible deniability, such as with recent "accidents" at American, British, and Germany factories that produce munitions.
Posted by: ak74 | Dec 13 2024 17:24 utc | 15
Realpolitik 101.
The purpose of war is to accomplish the objectives of the war.
Not to "teach a lesson", to "get revenge", or to achieve "justice".
That has been a key mistake of the West. It was susceptible to mission creep (by design?) when they sought to transform the world into a global "democracy" under "capitalism", trans-rights, and other very gay stuff.
You fight because you must, then you fight like hell to win, and then you go back to living as well as you can. Peace must always be the goal, and occupation as in Germany, Italy, Japan, and South Korea isn't peace. It is subjugation.
"Peace through strength" is an American MIC marketing slogan.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:24 utc | 16
@LoveDonbass:
- Creating as much chaos as possible in the Ukraine will make sure that more ukrainians are going to flee to (Western-)Europe creating more "tensions" than Europe can handle. No, I don't consider Ukraine to be part of Europe.
- The war is not "winding down" any time soon. At least, that's not going to happen before the end of january 2025 or before the beginning of february 2025. What happens afer that is anybody's guess. Even then It's not clear that Trump is going to stop that war in the Ukraine.
We'll simply have to wait and see what happens in the next say 8 to 10 weeks.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:25 utc | 17
Posted by: nwwoods | Dec 13 2024 17:19 utc | 9
LOL, that reads like a Babylon Bee headline...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 17:25 utc | 18
Posted by: Rageman | Dec 13 2024 17:20 utc | 10
############
With Oreshnik, Russia can go to nuclear levels of conflict without actually triggering a nuclear war. The math has changed.
Please notify your handler that you need a new script.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:26 utc | 19
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 17:21 utc | 11
#############
Most everything the Axis does (kinetic and diplomatic) has asymmetric effects.
We are getting an opportunity to watch a master class in strategy, IMO.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:28 utc | 20
The 'response' has been successful. There is then no additional need to follow up with another Oreshnik strike.As expected (see previous Ukraine thread).
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 13 2024 17:28 utc | 21
Isn't this collective punishment against the Ukrainian people - who have no say about what the Ukrainian and US militaries target? If the justification is to break the will of the Ukrainians to fight then why did they wait 2 1/2 years to do this?
Does this kind of destruction in western Ukraine mean Russia has decided not to take the entire country because they don't want the reconstruction costs? Should we brace ourselves for another Putin deal, this time with Trump?
If the attacks on Russia are of no military value then ignore them. If they are a gross violation then take action to stop them. Instead we get attacks on civilian targets.
I see zero deterrence in this attack. Your turn NATO...
Posted by: EoinW | Dec 13 2024 17:32 utc | 22
The war is not "winding down" any time soon.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:25 utc | 17
#############
Winter will have the final say. Putin has pushed a wedge between Europe and Ukraine (energy prices and supply) just as Trump is coming into office.
If any European states thought they could stay the course on Ukraine support, Putin has pulled that rug from under them.
With dwindling manpower and materiel support, don't be surprised if the Ukrainian army collapses sooner than later. No one in the Laymansphere™ (that you and I occupy) saw the Syrian collapse a few weeks ago.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:33 utc | 23
I still have serious doubts on North Korean direct, as distinct from observer, involvement in Kursk.
A measured response from RF to the latest Attack-ems attack.
One has to have some sympathy for civilians freezing in the harsh Ukrainian Winter.
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 13 2024 17:35 utc | 24
""Peace through strength" is an American MIC marketing slogan.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:24 utc | 16"
That is so right
Posted by: Johnny Dollar | Dec 13 2024 17:35 utc | 25
Posted by: EoinW | Dec 13 2024 17:32 utc | 22
But the electrical grid is not a purely “civilian” target. It is entirely dual-purpose, in that the manufacturing and transport of weapons involves the use of electricity, therefore it is a legitimate target.
Though I understand there isn’t so much electrical demand from Yuzhmash these days...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 17:37 utc | 27
One could see this as not daring to retaliate in kind. Others could say it's rather the opposite, and a way to say "it's only a flesh wound, your latest attack was pitiful and not worth a genuine retaliation, because we can defend ourselves and you can't truly hit us".
Of course, the key issue is that Western political and military leadership will pick the first interpretation and might continue to act stupid based on this, until they actually do something terminally idiotic that deserves a real retaliation.
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Dec 13 2024 17:38 utc | 28
I must re-wrtie my previous reply (#8) (the corrections are in bold):
- To be more precise: If Russia wants to occupy the Ukraine east of the Dnipro river then the last thing Russia would / should do is to destroy all electricity infrastructure east of the Dnjepr river. It's then best to destroy all the infrastructure west of the Dnipre river.
Alastair Crooke:
- The Biden administration wants to make things as difficult (in the Ukraine) as possible for the incoming Trump administration.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:38 utc | 29
Isn't this collective punishment against the Ukrainian people - who have no say about what the Ukrainian and US militaries target? If the justification is to break the will of the Ukrainians to fight then why did they wait 2 1/2 years to do this?
Does this kind of destruction in western Ukraine mean Russia has decided not to take the entire country because they don't want the reconstruction costs? Should we brace ourselves for another Putin deal, this time with Trump?
If the attacks on Russia are of no military value then ignore them. If they are a gross violation then take action to stop them. Instead we get attacks on civilian targets.
I see zero deterrence in this attack. Your turn NATO...
Posted by: EoinW | Dec 13 2024 17:32 utc | 22
###############
In response to the use of U.S.-made long-range weapons, the Russian Armed Forces delivered mass strikes by high-precision air- and sea-based weapons and attack drones at Ukrainian fuel and power infrastructure facilities ensuring operation of the defence industry.The goal of the strike has been achieved. All the targets have been engaged.
The 'response' has been successful. There is then no additional need to follow up with another Oreshnik strike.
Posted by b on December 13, 2024 at 16:59 UTC | Permalink
So yeah, it was a military strike on military-adjacent targets.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:39 utc | 30
It is -12C in Khmelnytskyi, western Ukraine now
https://www.windy.com/49.420/26.979?49.654,27.048,7
Without electric power or central heating you are looking at disaster.
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 13 2024 17:42 utc | 31
So ukraine, tired of being the western globalists “whipping boy” yet?
Posted by: Fred777 | Dec 13 2024 17:47 utc | 32
- I recently learned that in the river Dnjepre there are - at least - 6 reservoirs / dams. Each of these dam used to generate electricity. The Kachovka dam (near Cherson) was blown up by the russians on june 6, 2023. making it impossible to generate electricity any more. Did the russinas blow up more of the 5 remaining dams in the river Dnjepr ?
The damage for the Ukraine was very severe when I read the article below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakhovka_Dam
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:51 utc | 33
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:33 utc | 23
"vWinter will have the final say"
Just like in the last two winters, eh? Hope springs eternal! I will just note that when General winter has worked for russia, it has been on the defensive. Invaders ought to be afraid of winter.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 17:54 utc | 35
I’m genuinely curious here: Why doesn’t Russia just take out thermal plants in Western Ukraine as a matter of course? Doing so convinces the population that Ukraine cannot win the war, and by harming dual use infrastructure directly forwards the aims of the SMO. So why are these strikes—which could have (should have?) already taken place—being presented as a “response” to WESTERN escalation? It does not make any sense to me. Russia’s “response” to NATO using NATO satellites and NATO personnel to fire NATO weapons at Russia is to attack Ukrainian power infrastructure—which ostensibly they should ALREADY be doing if they want to win the war as quickly as possible with the least loss of Russian life!!
Somebody make this make sense to me.
Posted by: WJ | Dec 13 2024 17:56 utc | 36
Russia is not going to use hazelnuts on minor targets.
Trump is in in a month.
If he wants nuclear war the ATACMs strikes on Russian strategic targets continue.
All deterents are gone both sides.
Whats left is Trumps decision nuclear war or not.
Hitting strategic targets means his choice is nuclear war.
He is a stupid man. He may think he is bargaining.
Selecting Biden as a metric for comparison is lowest common denominator.
A slightly improved moron is still a moron.
He has surrounded himself with people that will tell him he is bargaining.
Sooner or later they get lucky with the ATACMs.
Poland gets a hazlenuts delivery from Amazon.
Nuclear war.
Posted by: Fred | Dec 13 2024 17:56 utc | 37
Why doesn't Russia finish Ukraine off? Why didn't they just hit Kiev with missiles and kill Zelensky? Why don't they nuke Poland?
Simple.
You always leave your enemy a path of retreat.
"Give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat across"
-Sun Tzu
You don't want them fighting to the death. As they become more bitter and vengeful, the more likely they are to commit an atrocity. Where nuclear powers are involved, such an atrocity could be fatal for the species.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:59 utc | 38
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 17:54 utc | 35
############
What was the state of the Ukrainian power grid 2 winters ago?
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 39
End Game for now. Exodus. For the Ukrops who want it.
Through the winter snows. It will be very cinematic.
To The Last Ukranian it is!
They’ll be anything but that Old Ukraine of many centuries ago.
Or they can stay and choose to be the same as the new 4 regions with all the investment and welfare guaranteed.
Just like rebuilt thriving Mariupol.
Tit for tat.
For over a century now.
Great Games non stop world war.
Hotter since turn of the century.
Has always been about the Lines on Maps.
Transport, Trade, Agriculture, industrial Goods. Etc
The last time the Gamers Lost they got the illegal apartheid entity in The Levant as a consolation prize. Again.
Leaving theRoW to fight over.
Egypt, North Africa and the Gulf Oil States saw that illegal apartheid entity Shapeshifting though its Rulers and Military.
What now as the final pieces are exchanged?
The Deal that DJT gets to make at the New Yalta/Potsdam.
Syria, Palestine and Lebanon, The Levant.
In exchange for Crimea and most of Russian speaking borderlands.
That’s how the Bankers like to hedge their ‘investments’.
Drumpf, Putin and Xi.
No Brit or EU ‘Old Empires’ or satraps.
India will want a say.
Sub Saharan Africa.
South’s East Asia and of course Latin America!
They won’t.
If Damascus becomes a split city so will Kiev. Etc.
Heck if they claim to be Syrian when they get to Europe - they’ll get a repatriation payment to go there! Winters not as harsh afaik. They can build Pig Farms.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 40
It is -12C in Khmelnytskyi, western Ukraine now
https://www.windy.com/49.420/26.979?49.654,27.048,7
Without electric power or central heating you are looking at disaster.
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 13 2024 17:42 utc | 31:
.
.
That's exactly what it's about, once the heaters are frozen, it's like that until spring and the heaters themselves are scrap forever.
It's about creating refugees, refugees have always been used and generated by the USA. Syria and Afghanistan are then directed to the relevant countries, partly with leaflets in refugee camps where you can get a house and money for free... partly with exports of inflatable boats at cheap prices.
Woe betide this wave of refugees if it arrives in Poland or Germany...
Flows of refugees are planned strategic weapons
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 41
Russian are using a somewhat counter-intuitive tactic : the de-escalation strike.
It consist to answer to a deliberately provocative strike by doing low-level dual-purpose strikes again and again. It's a known attrition technique , piling the costs : it might be more efficient than the body-count.
Posted by: Savonarole | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 42
"Ukraine had to lower the output of 5 of its 9 nuclear power plants..."
I think our host meant "5 out of its 9 nuclear reactors". A nuclear plant often has more than one reactor, and what's left of the Ukraine doesn't have 9 nuclear plants. They only have three plants now. Nuclear plants with more than one reactor can take the risk of running some of the reactors at production levels because if off-site power is lost, the reactors can power each other's cooling systems while the "hot" reactors are brought down.
I'm thinking that after this recent wave of strikes that more reactors may have to be idled, but word of it just hasn't leaked out yet.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2024 18:02 utc | 43
Posted by: Savonarole | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 42
############
Excellent points. Many Western commenters here find the concepts of timing and patience to be alien.
Love the username btw.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:03 utc | 44
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 39
"What was the state of the Ukrainian power grid 2 winters ago?"
More than adequate. Are you seriously suggesting that russia would capitulate if their power grrid was non-existent tomorrow?
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:07 utc | 45
Somebody make this make sense to me.Posted by: WJ | Dec 13 2024 17:56 utc | 36
The only people who can truly do that are in the Russian General Staff. It’s probably futile to try and second-guess those people in matters of operational and strategic planning; I’ve seen folks try to do that, only to invoke the Wrath of Martyanov...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 18:07 utc | 46
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:01 utc | 41
"Woe betide this wave of refugees if it arrives in Poland or Germany..."
And what if it arrives in russia?
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:09 utc | 47
Woe betide this wave of refugees if they arrive in Poland or Germany.
Flows of refugees are planned strategic weapons
Look at Germany, the health insurance companies are bankrupt, as only a few pay their contributions but EVERYONE, including refugees from all over the world, receives their treatment free of charge, costs that the state should cover, NOT the contributors.
Financial payments... Ukrainians in particular who arrive in Germany have NEVER received so much money (monthly) or had it in their hands all at once... it takes a while before they understand how EXPENSIVE life is in such a free Germany.
There is already hardly any housing, at least none that can be paid by a worker with 2 children.
The state, on the other hand, pays the rent for refugees at almost any amount without asking.
THAT creates social dynamite and national debt in the trillions... AND gives voters to the right-wing forces... I hardly believe that the German army would get enough soldiers even with conscription, let alone ever be able to accommodate them again, as ALL barracks have been sold.
Feedback geben
Seitenleisten
Verlauf
Gespeichert
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:11 utc | 48
"It is -12C in Khmelnytskyi, western Ukraine now
https://www.windy.com/49.420/26.979?49.654,27.048,7
Without electric power or central heating you are looking at disaster."
Rural Ukraine heats with wood and coal.
Shortages have been the biggest complaint.
the cities are sort of screwed but if you get enough people in a insulated room its livable but not fun with winter clothing. Continual infusions of warm liquids.
The midevil "great room".
Dogs help.
-12 is not fun but it is not a catastrophe.
Nuclear war is a catastrophe.
Pensioners in rural Ukraine health will be effected.
There will be casualties.
Ukraine will carry on.
Its what humans do.
Posted by: Fred | Dec 13 2024 18:11 utc | 49
Fortunately the Easterners don't have to worry about power for the fridge... at least until the milk starts freezing.
Posted by: Charlie | Dec 13 2024 18:13 utc | 50
I am remembering a speech in which Putin said "Russia IS winter.
Posted by: juliania | Dec 13 2024 18:17 utc | 51
"Woe betide this wave of refugees if it arrives in Poland or Germany..."
And what if it arrives in russia?
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:09 utc | 47
.
.
:
Russia... a country three times the size of Europe as a whole Russia has built millions of homes... Germany hasn't even managed the 300,000 that have been planned for years...
Russia is taking in people who speak Russian and have a Russian mentality Russia is looking for workers NEEDS WORKERS!!!
So don't compare Russia with the impoverished, indebted western bubble states where no matter how bad things are for the people it will ALWAYS be about dividends... AND nowhere in Western Europe are there raw materials to change that, e.g. housing construction!
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:17 utc | 52
"Fortunately the Easterners don't have to worry about power for the fridge... at least until the milk starts freezing.
Posted by: Charlie | Dec 13 2024 18:13 utc | 50"
Can they charge their phones or is it total barbarity?
Posted by: Fred | Dec 13 2024 18:20 utc | 54
Norwegian @31:
It is -12C in Khmelnytskyi, western Ukraine now
https://www.windy.com/49.420/26.979?49.654,27.048,7Without electric power or central heating you are looking at disaster.
Within 24 hours, pipes begin to freeze and burst. Heat and water cannot just be turned back on after that. Buildings that do not have their plumbing drained or have antifreeze added quickly enough will be uninhabitable for months at best.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2024 18:20 utc | 55
Would make sense for russia to target forein forces in Ukraine. There are two questions, maybe the historians will someday find the answers: Does russia still have enough intelligence to know where they are? Second: No one will tell about them, when they were hit,cause -indian word of honor- they have not been there in Ukraine...they died in an accident elswhere on the globe.
Oreshnik use, with ¼ an hour forewarning will not do this, because they will be the first to leave impact area.
Posted by: Johnny | Dec 13 2024 18:21 utc | 56
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:09 utc | 47
#############
LOL. Only Western nations are stupid enough to have "open door" policies.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:21 utc | 57
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:17 utc | 52
############
Russia is also taking in anyone from the West who rejects the Globohomo social agenda.
Russia is a destination as homeless people are crapping on the sidewalks of San Francisco.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:23 utc | 58
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:03 utc | 44
Thank you ^^. Modest assessments are the best way I found to pile western hubris and stupidity ontop the vanity pyre : hence the alias.
Posted by: Savonarole | Dec 13 2024 18:23 utc | 59
Norwegian @31:
It is -12C in Khmelnytskyi, western Ukraine now
https://www.windy.com/49.420/26.979?49.654,27.048,7
Without electric power or central heating you are looking at disaster.
Within 24 hours, pipes begin to freeze and burst. Heat and water cannot just be turned back on after that. Buildings that do not have their plumbing drained or have antifreeze added quickly enough will be uninhabitable for months at best."
Very true. And getting to those pipes to replace them means going into the walls. Piping is expensive. Installing it takes labor.
Iraq
No rebuild
Libya
No rebuild
Gaza
No rebuild
Syria
No rebuild
Ukraine
No rebuild
WAR! Best thing since sliced bread!
Posted by: Fred | Dec 13 2024 18:26 utc | 60
Posted by: Johnny | Dec 13 2024 18:21 utc | 56
###########
My understanding is that Oreshnik is not meant to be anti-personnel. It is anti-infrastructure. Above and below ground, Hazel can smash it.
Destroying Ukrainian military infrastructure (see the opening post by b) is a key to preventing any sort of NATO support from coming into Ukraine from the West.
Bases, airfields, and power plants cannot be quickly and secretly built, certainly not during winter.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:26 utc | 61
Must see Scott Ritter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0GXjjOVUdo
Posted by: Tom | Dec 13 2024 18:27 utc | 62
Posted by: Fred | Dec 13 2024 18:11 utc | 49
.
.
.
Nonsense!
Example in civilized industrial Germany The winter of the century in 1978/79 down to minus 32 degrees
In the cities in the new developments with district heating, campfires were lit on balconies to warm food for small children and themselves. Where pipes had not already burst, the district heating was activated for 1 hour every 6 hours to avoid the complete destruction of the pipes.
Power outages prevented supermarkets from opening and hand cash registers were distributed...four-wheel drive vehicles of the fire brigade and the armed forces had to bring petrol to emergency generators that were used to generate electricity for the mill (flour). Petrol and diesel were filled into tankers directly in the refinery using emergency power pumps and sold from these tankers to car owners. Gas stations did not work. The temperatures in the apartments dropped to minus 5 degrees...dangerous for small children.
Of course, in the countryside in Ukraine, even in old buildings, wood is still used for heating, but you have already forgotten that Kiev or Sylenski made it a criminal offence to collect wood from the surrounding area about 8 weeks ago...which means that very few people are likely to have a supply of it.
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Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:29 utc | 64
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:07 utc | 45
############
Yes, 2 years ago it may have been adequate.
Now it is not.
They are begging the Western European states for electricity that those states cannot afford to spare to a "country" that is 404.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:30 utc | 66
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:17 utc | 52
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:21 utc | 57
I see. Those very same people from the Ukraine are problem anywhere else, but a gift sent from heaven in russia. Because russia needs bodies. To be raped? At least for their organs to be harvested.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:31 utc | 67
RE: “You don't want them fighting to the death. As they become more bitter and vengeful, the more likely they are to commit an atrocity. Where nuclear powers are involved, such an atrocity could be fatal for the species.”
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:59 utc | 38
This is just as fatal for humanity.
No response as a genocide is filmed live.
An “atrocity” has/is occurring and you’re concerned about a final blow to the “species” that enables it?
But sure, Russia is being “smart”, “constrained” “unprovoked”…until the decapitation strike from Hell comes upon them and all because… they hesitated.
Hesitation is a costly “virtue”…
Russia just signed their death warrant.
For you can never make peace with evil.
Destroy it, or it destroys you.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 13 2024 18:34 utc | 68
Russia should have killed Zelensky a long time ago and his top Generals, how many Russian or DPR people have we seen assassinated over the years? they lalso turn Maidan into a car park.
Posted by: Englishman | Dec 13 2024 18:34 utc | 69
I feel much more confident now that all the military strategists have arrived.
*eyeroll*
Posted by: nwwoods | Dec 13 2024 18:37 utc | 70
I see. Those very same people from the Ukraine are problem anywhere else, but a gift sent from heaven in russia. Because russia needs bodies. To be raped? At least for their organs to be harvested.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:31 utc | 67
.
.
What an idiot you are...not entirely clear in the head...
Are you confusing something with the UKRO NAZIS
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:38 utc | 71
@20 love
I question this thesis, that Hazel is a non-escalatory munition.
It seems that many here still trade in terms like international law. In my view, it would be best and most expedient to be done with this term once and for all. Power makes rules. When there is a balance of power, little rules are made and silence is observed.
M.A.D. seems to be a holdover term that has come out of this notion of international law.
The fact that Hazel is non-nuclear does not mean that, seeing their chips are down at the card table and their empire is giving way, they will not automatically escalate to nuclear attacks anyway.
We are talking about cornered-beast after all. Hazel is impressive, but one nuke set-off from the empire because they are shitting their britches means we are doomed anyway, irregardless of Hazel.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 13 2024 18:38 utc | 72
And indeed, trouble in the European electricity markets...
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Norway-Wants-to-Scrap-EU-Power-Links-amid-Surging-Prices.html
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 18:39 utc | 73
imagine ukraine without maidan and billions of dollars not wasted
giggity
Posted by: Hodes | Dec 13 2024 18:40 utc | 74
And what if it arrives in russia?
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:09 utc | 47
Check for interesting tattoos?
Posted by: Passerby | Dec 13 2024 18:40 utc | 75
Agree with Norwegian and Ossi. This is a multi-layer response which is painful in a multitude of areas.
1) It's damn cold at the moment, so plumbing systems which cool to sub-zero will cause ice damage in piping and pumps. This doesn't just wreck home heating, but also fresh water supplies, sewage systems and pumping stations.
2) Lowering the power output of NPPs isn't just a case of flipping a switch off and then on again. Depending on the design, raising the base load criticality of a nuclear power plant is very tricky balancing act. It usually takes several days if you want to rush it, but will have consequences. To minimise risk, fuel poisoning and wasting fuel it is better to ramp up the reactions over the course of weeks. So having to rapidly drop output of reactors to near sub-criticality is a _very_ painful act.
3) Faced with a winter of long power cuts and possible lack of fresh water, will cause a spike in migration into eastern Europe. A double whammy considering there may be millions of now displaced/fleeing Syrians heading to the EU.
4) If the Russians were smart, they left the main electrical transmission lines from Europe into Ukraine intact - forcing the Europeans to pump already ridiculously expensive electricity into the failing state - driving up cats even higher. Which won't make those electorates particularly happy. Especially when facing the need to spend more on defence budgets.
Europe just got kicked in the balls.
Posted by: Rhadamanthus | Dec 13 2024 18:43 utc | 76
At least for their organs to be harvested.Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:31 utc | 67
fun fact, there are widespread reports about ukrainian organs beeing shipped westwards to the eu.
Posted by: Justpassinby | Dec 13 2024 18:43 utc | 77
thanks b...
regarding the topic of the targets - inside or outside ukraine? i agree with @ Clueless Joe | Dec 13 2024 17:38 utc | 28
my impression is many posters here are so used to western style tactics, they view it as the only way.. i personally don't agree..
------ thanks ossi, william gruff, norwegian and a few others here..
- for me the ongoing topic is this -> is trump going to do something to change any of this ongoing equation?? can he or would he get the usa out of nato?? nato is the sole cause of this nato-russia war and ukraine is the proxy place... i can't see it myself, but maybe some of the trump fans can convince me otherwise - william gruff??
Posted by: james | Dec 13 2024 18:44 utc | 78
[email protected], create chaos, make them move.....yes, the Gaza option.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Dec 13 2024 18:45 utc | 79
Fred @60:
Ukraine
No rebuild
Seen Mariupol lately? Crimea?
Oh yeah, that's not the Ukraine anymore. My bad.
You are right, after all. The Ukraine has done nothing for itself since 1991.
On the bright side, destroying everything in the Ukraine makes it easier for the EU to pave the streets in gold when the Ukraine gets let into "The Garden", right?
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2024 18:46 utc | 80
In agreement with other posters.
US pulls the trigger, supplies & fires the ATCAMS… all US and Russian “retaliation” is to freeze the civilians in Ukraine. Cute.
Yes, some military for a spell will be hurt. Although obviously they will have power priority.
US will be proud. A good days work done. They and theirs are warm, safe and dry… as expected. Good job RUS MOD…!
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 13 2024 18:47 utc | 81
Ukraine Weekly Update, 13th December 2024: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-d93
Posted by: The Busker | Dec 13 2024 18:49 utc | 82
Reply to post 34, indeed, Hal's work is very reliable. Those pics of RF missiles on the move today? I speculate the RF released them as an indirect "Careful what ya wish for, NATO" statement.
Posted by: Ering46z | Dec 13 2024 18:50 utc | 83
The combination of bad news from the front lines along with the loss of heat for ones home, on top of losing power, could drive people to seriously consider emigrating out of Ukraine.
But anyway, right now all we have are reports. I think that the Western media won't devote serious attention to attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure until there is lots of evidence of lots of people having to seek refuge in shelters set up to provide heat, and others loading up into motor vehicles and looking to try their luck elsewhere.
Should Ukraine have to start shutting down, and not just lowering output from, some of its nuclear reactors, then that too should grab the attention of the press. There could be a lot of bluster from the Biden administration regarding that, but the hows and whys of nuclear reactors being dependent on power generation and power lines other than their own are too complex to get much attention from the public in the West.
Posted by: Babel-17 | Dec 13 2024 18:50 utc | 84
Posted by: Passerby | Dec 13 2024 18:40 utc | 75
"Check for interesting tattoos?"
And if they are like Dmitry Utkin's, give them medals?
Posted by: Justpassinby | Dec 13 2024 18:43 utc | 77
"fun fact, there are widespread reports about ukrainian organs beeing shipped westwards to the eu."
Indeed, spread by russians. Who use them for Putin and his mates. But you get your fun where it tickles you :(
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:50 utc | 85
And indeed, trouble in the European electricity markets...
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Norway-Wants-to-Scrap-EU-Power-Links-amid-Surging-Prices.html
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 18:39 utc | 73
.
.
.
What do you mean by problems here?
In Germany and France, steel and glassworks stopped their production today...the price of electricity went up to around €950 per mega hour...which in the USA, for example, costs around €35.
(That's what was reported on TV)
One day without sun and wind was enough to cause disaster.
Posted by: ossi | Dec 13 2024 18:50 utc | 86
The "Korean SSR" is of course a dead giveaway (and troll)---aside from the fact that the Union of Council Socialist states ("Soviet Union") no longer exists, there never was a Korean member state of said union.
Posted by: Johan Meyer (2) | Dec 13 2024 18:52 utc | 87
Sorry for leaving the quotation dangling in my too hasty post; (here's the missing bit - ".) I was going to say: surely, what the Biden team is doing will make it easier for Trump, if he is so inclined, to do and be something different. It seems clear that Russian responses are responses with care for the civilian population, whereas Western/Ukrainian attacks on Russia are weak and uncaring. Russia knows who is responsible for that.
And surely, some western ordinary Ukrainians will be trickling east into those inhabitable villages with lights and warmth and friendly relatives -- not west. Towards a Russian Christmas and all the delights thereof, even for those not particularly religious, since all are welcome to the feast as the magi were,(unofficially of course). Whenever and wherever possible.
If it were me, I would. Even without a war gradually losing its grip on all possible exit points.
Posted by: juliania | Dec 13 2024 18:53 utc | 88
@Waldorf | Dec 13 2024 18:28 utc | 63
55 - Seems colder than last winter.It is climate change, it always coincides with western attacks on Russia (ask Napoleon or the gentleman from Austria).
In fact, the grand solar minimum has for a decade predicted cold winters now.
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 13 2024 18:53 utc | 89
How is this a retaliation for the ATACMS strike that doesn't target western military? Without that it just shows the West it can get away with anything.
Posted by: quackalist | Dec 13 2024 17:07 utc | 2
You sound disappointed that Russia didn't start WW3. Did you lose a bet or do you want to end it all but are too chicken to do it yourself?
Personally I'm hoping this war ends with a quick coupe and Ukraine's surrender before Christmas and I can stop worrying about my grandchildren having to live in a culvert with third degree burns and radiation sickness because some tit on MOA gets their armegeddon wish.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Dec 13 2024 18:55 utc | 90
For those who don't think lack of basic utilities is a big deal, try going this entire weekend without flushing your toilet and get back to us on Monday how things went. I am not even challenging you to go without heat, electricity and Internet, just the toilet flush.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2024 18:55 utc | 91
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:31 utc | 67
##########
You misunderstand. Those people are Europe's problem. One way or another Bandera is getting into the EU.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 18:57 utc | 92
@Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 18:39 utc | 73
Yes. Electricity prices increased 10x for a while here. Luckily I have my boiler even though everybody thought I was a fool when I didn't replace it with electric heating.
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 13 2024 19:01 utc | 93
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Dec 13 2024 18:50 utc | 85
############
Ukraine could not get into the EU for decades because of its enormous corruption issues which there is no shortage of independent Ukrainian journalists report upon. That's not Russian propaganda. That is from 20+ years ago and gets revisited every time Ukraine makes a push for EU membership.
Human trafficking, bio labs, drug trafficking, and organ trafficking, all are big industries in Ukraine and have been for some time.
Weak attempt to deflect it on Russia. Doesn't change the fact that Russia is thriving and will exist long after Ukraine is in the dustbin of history.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 19:02 utc | 94
Posted by: Membrum Virile | @various
Your failure to capitalise the word Russia or Russians turns your posts into childish temper tantrums.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 19:03 utc | 95
People will break that law.
".
.
Nonsense!
Example in civilized industrial Germany The winter of the century in 1978/79 down to minus 32 degrees
In the cities in the new developments with district heating, campfires were lit on balconies to warm food for small children and themselves. Where pipes had not already burst, the district heating was activated for 1 hour every 6 hours to avoid the complete destruction of the pipes.
Power outages prevented supermarkets from opening and hand cash registers were distributed...four-wheel drive vehicles of the fire brigade and the armed forces had to bring petrol to emergency generators that were used to generate electricity for the mill (flour). Petrol and diesel were filled into tankers directly in the refinery using emergency power pumps and sold from these tankers to car owners. Gas stations did not work. The temperatures in the apartments dropped to minus 5 degrees...dangerous for small children.
Of course, in the countryside in Ukraine, even in old buildings, wood is still used for heating, but you have already forgotten that Kiev or Sylenski made it a criminal offence to collect wood from the surrounding area about 8 weeks ago...which means that very few people are likely to have a supply of it.
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Thank you for your feedback.
People do what they have to to get by. In that there is commonality. Staying warm when it is cold raises very basic considerations for humans. We all understand this. It is a basis for commonality.-12 is not a disaster. Even homeless people with no resources cope with it. Helping people cope with it builds community.
Theres more to people than sitting in a room with central heat. If you have a structure with even a little insulation you can get it livable. Theres lots of ways. I grew up poor and finding ways to stay warm in winter is just part of life. Everyone found ways. The Ukranians will find ways.
Maybe the Germans would freeze rather than find ways that dont fit there ideas about right and wrong ways of doing things. The rest of the world will do what they have to.
You can get a place up to freezing pretty easy from -12. the -5 you mention is not much fun but it sure beats -12.
A rocket stove burning twigs will get even a poorly insulated room above -5. It can be built from bricks or concrete blocks. Above freezing is livable if not fun. Feeding twigs into a rocket stove is tedious. It beats the alternative. People find ways. They dont just sit on their ass and freeze. Mostly.
I hope the Ukrainian people stay warm. I bet they will. I hope all people of the world have their basic needs met. That is justice. These stupid wars are owned by the elites. People just want to get by. They do get by.
Posted by: Fred | Dec 13 2024 19:04 utc | 96
Babel-17 | Dec 13 2024 18:50 utc | 84: "Should Ukraine have to start shutting down, and not just lowering output from, some of its nuclear reactors..."
The reduced-output reactors are essentially shut down, just not all the way to "cold shutdown". They are idling so that if the grid is restored enough, they can be brought back up relatively easily, while at the same time they are cooling down from full production so if they have to be put into cold shutdown, that too can be done more quickly.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2024 19:06 utc | 97
But the electrical grid is not a purely “civilian” target. It is entirely dual-purpose, in that the manufacturing and transport of weapons involves the use of electricity, therefore it is a legitimate target.
Though I understand there isn’t so much electrical demand from Yuzhmash these days...
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Dec 13 2024 17:37 utc | 27
So yeah, it was a military strike on military-adjacent targets.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 17:39 utc | 30
If these are military targets shouldn't they have been bombed at the first opportunity? And why must Russia need a excuse to hit them?
NATO attacks Russia then Russia bombs Ukraine and claims it punished NATO for the initial attack. A bit disingenuous, don't you think?
If Russia does not want to escalate to war with NATO then it needs to accept these "pinprick" attacks from NATO as a cost of war. Claiming the attacks will be punished then going after the Ukraine military, which has no say in the matter, doesn't do much for Russian credibility.
NATO attacks Russia. Russia attacks Ukraine. NATO attacks Russia again. Russia attacks Ukraine again. That's deterrence? Isn't repeating the same thing over again and expecting a different result the definition of insanity?
Yes I know...5D chess. I hope the Putin apologists are right. Personally, Putin's idea of war seems like being half pregnant.
Posted by: EoinW | Dec 13 2024 19:08 utc | 98
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2024 18:55 utc | 91
##########
No flushing is a challenge for urbanites. People take running water for granted like they take electric lighting for granted.
I lose power for a couple of days at a time every year. I welcome it.
Life gets quieter and simpler.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 13 2024 19:09 utc | 99
Posted by: The Busker | Dec 13 2024 18:49 utc | 82
Many thanks Dr. Rob.
This has been quite a busy week and it is good to have your summary of events.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Dec 13 2024 19:11 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
FIRST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On a more serious note:
This points into the direction that Russia is going to occupy the eastern part of the Ukraine, east of the river Dnipro + Odessa.
Posted by: WMG | Dec 13 2024 17:04 utc | 1