Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 17, 2024
Russia – Agree To Be Provoked Or Fall For Lucy’s Football?

Early this morning assassins from the Ukrainian Military Intelligence Service killed Lieutenant General Igor Kirillov, the commander of the Russian Radiological, Chemical, and Biological Defense Forces, in Moscow:

Lieutenant-General Igor Kirillov, commander of the nuclear, biological and chemical forces of the Russian army, died in a blast as he was heading out of a residential block in Moscow, the Russian Investigative Committee said in a statement.

An explosive device was hidden in an electric scooter parked nearby. Kirillov’s aide also died in the attack, the investigative committee said, announcing a criminal investigation. Video footage obtained by POLITICO corroborates that version of events.

Kirillov lived in a normal apartment block. His aide was picking him up for work. They were observed and someone who was watching (and filming) them pulled the trigger.

Kirillov was well known. He gave several public presentations about secret U.S. bio-warfare experiments in Ukraine:

Writing on Kirillov’s passing, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zakharova said that throughout his career he had repeatedly exposed the crimes of the “Anglo-Americans” such as “NATO provocations with chemical weapons in Syria, Britain’s manipulations with prohibited chemical substances and provocations in Salisbury and Amesbury, the deadly activities of American biolabs in Ukraine, and much more.”

“He worked fearlessly. He did not hide behind people’s backs,” Zakharova wrote.

This is of course a provocation designed by Ukraine to make peace talks with Russia, as president-elect Donald Trump presumably favors, less possible.

The question for Russia is now how to react to it.

Should it hit back with its whole might and destroy the 'decision making centers' in Kiev who are responsible for this incident? (Note: An accurate definition of 'decision centers' would include the embassies of the U.S. and Great Britain in Kiev.)

Or should it hold back and hope that negotiations about Ukraine with Donald Trump will actually achieve some positive, if temporary, results?

It is a difficult question.

The general configuration of the incoming Trump administration is hawkish.

It is thus highly unlikely, James George Jatras writes, that any agreement which could be seen as positive for Russia will be worth the paper it is written on:

[T]he Russians have made it clear that they will accept no temporary truces, no ceasefires, no more promises made to be broken like piecrusts, no pauses as cynical tricks to get the Russians to forgo their current and growing military advantage. (…) No, they insist, there must be either a genuine, definitive, binding settlement that ensures a lasting peace based on mutual security, or Russian forces will press on until their objectives – notably “demilitarization and denazification” of Ukraine – are achieved militarily. Such an outcome would mean at least replacement of the current regime in Kiev and, more likely, the end of Ukraine’s statehood.

For the West, this would constitute a total debacle of Afghanistan-like proportions effectively signaling the end of US hegemony in Europe, the [Great American Empire’s] crown jewel. What can Trump offer the Russians to avoid that?

[T]he real question for the Trump Administration becomes a political one of how much wiggle room there is in the Russians’ stated determination not to rely on more promises of the sort that have been repeatedly broken in the past. Put another way: if Trump-Lucy wants to avoid utter defeat in the European theater of the worldwide confrontation between the GAE and BRICS-Eurasia, so he can get on to mixing it up with Iran and China, can he dupe Putin-Charlie Brown into taking another run at the football?

I think he at least has a good shot at it.

Jatras lists several points that the U.S. could temporarily concede to Russia only to later pull the proverbial football on each of those items.

Russia would of course expect this. But the opening question – to fall for the provocation or to find an alternative way – can also be asked within a larger context.

In 2019 RAND, the Defense Department's think-tank, published the main policy paper that led to the war in Ukraine.

Extending Russia – Competing from Advantageous Ground

Its summary says:

This report examines a range of possible means to extend Russia. As the 2018 National Defense Strategy recognized, the United States is currently locked in a great-power competition with Russia. This report seeks to define areas where the United States can compete to its own advantage. Drawing on quantitative and qualitative data from Western and Russian sources, this report examines Russia's economic, political, and military vulnerabilities and anxieties. It then analyzes potential policy options to exploit them — ideologically, economically, geopolitically, and militarily (including air and space, maritime, land, and multidomain options). After describing each measure, this report assesses the associated benefits, costs, and risks, as well as the likelihood that measure could be successfully implemented and actually extend Russia. Most of the steps covered in this report are in some sense escalatory, and most would likely prompt some Russian counter-escalation.

Arming Ukraine, and pushing it into provoking a Russian intervention, was seen as the most 'profitable' way to weaken the Russian Federation.

By starting the Special Military Operation in Ukraine Russia had actually fallen for the provocation RAND had planned for it. For Russia there was, at that moment, no alternative.

U.S. anti-Russia hawks will try their best to keep Russia bogged down in Ukraine.

But others see the growing danger that a prolonged conflict creates for the West. The economic damage it has caused is already substantial. It is also diverting U.S. capacities from countering China.

Trump's peace allures may thereby become a real alternative for Russia to climb out of the RAND trap.

It is either all in, take Kiev and defeat Ukraine as a state, or take the negotiation route, concede on some issues and agree to an imperfect solution which may (or more likely not) turn out to be permanent.

Russia's president Vladimir Putin, and the circles around him, will have the ponder these difficult questions.

Comments

No …. to hell with monkeys and organ grinders, focus on who owns their performance.
… so quit pretending that these relay offices in Kiev are important “decision centres”, and obliterate TelAviv with zero warnings.
Posted by: Cynic | Dec 17 2024 18:21 utc | 65
Tel Aviv should be at the top of everyone’s list who desires peace; followed by DC, NyC, London, Brussels and Basel.
To stop all wars, stop the funding. Especially the funding of the intelligence agencies working hand in glove like CIA, Mossad, MI6, et al.
By the way, America did not vote for this, no matter the head salesman.
I as a patriotic American did not vote at all because I could not and cannot continue to consent to be ruled by a choice between two evils, all of whom are owned by Tel Aviv.

Posted by: Nooneuknow | Dec 17 2024 19:59 utc | 101

aristodemos | Dec 17 2024 18:16 utc | 60
*** Also, when the Zionist Entity in Occupied Palestine is broken up by one means or another; those Khazarian refugees would be allowed and enabled to return to that statelet which would become their new “Pale of Settlement”.***
Thereby rendering all deaths and injuries to Russian soldiers in the Ukraine war absolutely futile.
The Khazarians *want* much (or all) of Ukraine for themselves.
Just as their Oligarchs already had, but much worse….
To thus reward these conniving, murderous, fanatically bigoted toxins after the immense damage they’ve inflicted over many years — and certainly not only against Russians — would be an exceedingly sick joke by those who rule, and for which they too would thoroughly deserve execution.

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 17 2024 20:00 utc | 102

Getting to the root of the problem: The Greedy Few .vs. The World
Tom said: “Russia and China, smack-down those bad Zionist-NeoCon-Oligarchs that are ruining the Public’s future”
Wagelabor said: “Not going to happen. We have to do it ourselves”.
Patroklos said [not directly to me, but on the theme-line]: “You’d think that after all that time Charlie Brown would forget the ball and aim his kick at Lucy. Kick the smug shit out of her. There’s something the Russians can grasp.”
Too Scents said [not directly to me, but on the theme-line]: “Following on the heels of the UHC CEO assassination there is a smorgasbord of follow-on possibilities that would have popular support in the West that are obvious simple asymmetrical strikes that Russia could pursue. Engage hearts and minds for the win.”
I respond:
a) US public has to help, yes indeed. And there are many of us who will. A lot – and I really do think “a lot” – of the Trump voters are totally clued in about where the problem is, and who’s responsible.
b) Russia and China can name names and actively take the fight to the people involved, and do it world-wide publicly. They have a huge sound-stage and following, and their voice can’t be repressed outside the U.S., and it’s increasingly hard to squelch the truth here in the U.S.
Too Scents said “engage hearts and minds for the win”, and that’s the right idea. Publicly-stated and irrepressibly obvious actions by Russia or China … “actions” you ask? Like what? The “actions” don’t have to be assassination, it can (even better) be economic ruin. A public, world-wide economic flogging of a few oligarchs will move the hell out of the Overton window.
Patroklos said it very well, and with panache: “Kick the smug shit out of her”*
=== We’ve often commented here at the Bar that the U.S. is really good at “controlling the narrative”. Well, this is a very good time for Russia to seize control of the narrative, and shake the daylights out of it.
And nothing gets the goat of these narcissistic God-Chosen than to be pilloried in public. Nothing. Put them under an unshakable spotlight, and publicly strip their money and their status from them.
===============
* For all you women @ the Bar: “her” in this instance is “Lucy”, a comic-strip character of manipulative and somewhat malevolent nature (such as can be done in a comic strip), well-known here in the U.S. among the 40+ year old crowd. Be assured: this is no slam on women; I happen to like women.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Dec 17 2024 20:01 utc | 103

“I …did not vote at all because I could not and cannot continue to consent to be ruled by a choice between two evils, all of whom are owned by Tel Aviv.
Posted by: Nooneuknow | Dec 17 2024 19:59 utc | 101
—————————————————————- |
Ditto….

Posted by: Ed | Dec 17 2024 20:06 utc | 104

10 year at 4.3%
that interest rate brings peace. De-Dollarization is what matters.

Posted by: exile | Dec 17 2024 20:07 utc | 105

How does this learning happen?
Posted by: spudski | Dec 17 2024 19:44 utc | 94
My acquaintances only seem to learn after growing poorer.

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 17 2024 20:07 utc | 106

Second, the terrorist act exposed valuable Ukie/NATO assets within Moscow which will prompt better FSB, related agencies and Russian public awareness of a very serious problem that must be solved.
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 19:54 utc | 98
After finishing the SMO Russia will face terrorism, perpetrators are already now trained and sponsored and prepared by mi6 (et al.).

Posted by: MorePain4Cakes | Dec 17 2024 20:08 utc | 107

I’m not one of those who’s (virtually) leading the charge for direct confrontation with NATO. I will confess to some surprise though that a few obvious “decision-making centers” in Kiev at least have not been struck.
For instance, one of the most attractive targets for an Oreshnik strike (in broad daylight with drones filming the result) is the Ministry of Defense complex in Kiev. It’s about a kilometer square, and no doubt has a significant underground component. On at least two sides it does not seem to have densely populous areas.
Does Russia have valuable assets in that building? Probably, but how valuable, and can’t they just exit with everyone else when the Kremlin gives its public warning? Do they imagine the whole of the Defense structure can be turned in their favor and used to patrol the DMZ? Honestly, I can’t see a strong case for not taking it out as an alternative to what increasingly appears to be empty talk about ‘decision-making centers’.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Dec 17 2024 20:10 utc | 108

Biolabs are not targets worth an Oreshnik. They can be destroyed with other weapons. Moreover, Russia does not yet have enough Oreshnik to use them lightly. They remain in reserve in case there is an immediate threat from the West that needs to be answered below the Atum threshold.

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 20:15 utc | 109

It is too late. The Western determination to take the path of escalation is too strong. The clearer it becomes that the capitalist system can no longer find its way out of the impasse in which it has been stuck for over a decade, the greater the motivation to try to achieve a capitalist reset with a war between great powers. However, this would require at least one national capital not destroyed by the war. That is unlikely this time.
The clearer it is made to the West, its imperial centre that the opposing side cannot be eliminated militarily – for which an aggressive reaction to provocations is seen as an indication – the more likely it is that non-nihilist Westerners (still in existence) will be given arguments to refrain from the extreme. No action is seen as a symptom of fear. It is therefore necessary to react appropriately, otherwise there is a risk of a Syrian-style outcome. Russia and China cannot afford Pyrrhic victories.

Posted by: Pnyx | Dec 17 2024 20:15 utc | 110

Thanks b – I think Russians will do their investigations and act in accordance with and within their legal framework. But it is within their rights to attack ‘decision making centres’ as legitimate targets. Thereby they can take out Budanov, Zelensky etc., and, so it seems the British and American embassies.
Posted by: The Busker | Dec 17 2024 17:19 utc | 23
Can but will they? there are no legal frameworks as far as the US Reich and it’s collaborators are concerned.

Posted by: Englishman | Dec 17 2024 20:17 utc | 111

The calls here for Russia to engage in some form of reciprocal revenge, either on individuals or decision centers are incorrect, and would be dangerous if these suggestions had any chance of influencing Russia’s actions. Don’t you understand we stand on the precipice of a new World War? Syria is the first sovereign nation to be divided up and partitioned between other nations since Poland in 1939. No, Russian security services will do as much as they can to identify and catch the on-site perpetrator(s). Later, after the conclusion of the Ukraine SMO, the planners and decision makers of these terrorist acts will be brought before judicial bodies for prosecution, or they will be assassinated when there is no risk of converting the SMO to WWIII. Revenge is a dish best served cold, and justice delayed is still justice.

Posted by: mjh | Dec 17 2024 20:23 utc | 112

Russia should keep on going the way it is going. Its World War Three solders get killed all the time. More people will be killed. No need for harsh un thought out reactions.
Things are going great for Russia just staying the course..
Russia is hands down winning in Ukraine.
Germany’s economy is in free fall.
Germany’s government just fell in the toilet.
France is floating in the same toilet bowl as Germany. Another African Nation, Chad, just kicked their military out of the country.
England is a joke. All their ships are broken down, armories depleted, Air force kept in the air with Duct tape and bailing wire. The British Empire is a distant fading memory.
The United States is falling as well. 37 trillion in debt and growing every day. You cant print your way out of that shit hole. Nor can you fight your way out. War is the greatest driver of Inflation.
Armories are depleted and equipment so out of date it will take decades of peace to restore.
US Military has an overall WEAK rating. US has No manufacturing capacity to support war. No mechanically trained workforce. Educational system that prioritizes graduating Social Engineers over Rocket engineers.
As long as Russia sticks to the plan and does not waver. They will win.
No negotiation with Forked Tongues who will not keep their word.
The West is playing poker and holding Eights and Aces. AKA Deadman’s hand.

Posted by: golddigger | Dec 17 2024 20:24 utc | 113

This shows continued weakness with Russia’s security. Russia can’t protect its people from terrorism again and again. Russia needs to thoroughly review and change its system.

Posted by: MiniMO | Dec 17 2024 20:28 utc | 114

@91 patroklos
Thanks for the comment. As always, so much to chew on.
Of course, all great writers and students of history, know that the external mirrors the internal. The life of a society mirrors also the life of the individual. This is something that Kierkegaard first did not understand, but then, in his last period as a writer, took his life’s work to attacking the Institutional Danish Church, and, by extension, all organized Christianity.
Some on this board will take this to mean that Kierkegaard was attacking “organized religion” as a whole, but I think Kierkegaard is pointing more towards the central problem of how we as people organize ourselves in relation to bigger questions.
In an early journal entry, he writes, “So what that a King has been overthrown? (referring to a current event in another country; I forget the exact reference) Or in another, he writes, “People gawk in amazement in foreign lands and at strange peoples and think they have seen something.”
In his early writings, he is more consumed with awakening people by appealing to their own individual-Ness, their own specific purpose. It is only later that he is able to posit the concept of the Christian in the body-religious in his attack on Christendom. This was/is a dicey endeavor and there remains much to think about with regards to his authorship.
In effect, Kierkegaard is finally attacking how his western brethren have decided to organize themselves. He correctly saw the degenerative effect of western liberalism leading us down the road to ruin and could not put up with it any longer.
From the writings of Kierkegaard, Heidegger ran with them, incorporating Kierkegaard’s notion of anxiety and, harkening back to the pre-Socratics, reintroduced the notion of a people and their spirit (Volk) and how this relates to modern humanity (liberal humanism) and technology.
For a Christian, such as Putin, to look into the
chaos of the west, and its failure to position itself in a tenable manner, in the way that Heidegger addresses the need for the west to inhabit, we can understand that Russia and many others know the die has been cast and the writing is on the wall.
The flailings of a mad man matter not to a person/nation composed properly in its encounter with that question.
Putin is busy with the question of Russia. What is it? Is the future of the west reliant on Russia to help it. I think so. The west supposes an end to history, to questioning itself. Russia is seeking to reintroduce this essential task of man.

So the Kierkegaardian question: the choices before us in the western mind, are they enough? Can a man live authentically in an arrangement such as ours? Or must we, like Kierkegaard, engage in conflict and expose ourselves to ridicule from the state?
Putin seems to me to be on the right path. We know this because they hate him, more than anything. He stands for justice and fairness and all those things hinted at by the pathetic phrase, “international law.” He is pointing the way forward.
To ask him to punch back in the same manner as the west invokes, is to ask Russia to be the evil twin of degenerate western liberalism, to concede that its rotten foundations are worth the destruction of the world in a fight between the twins.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 17 2024 20:29 utc | 115

@ xor | Dec 17 2024 19:52 utc | 97
thanks for that clear sighted overview..
@ Paul Damascene | Dec 17 2024 20:10 utc | 108
perhaps as you note – valuable assets prevent this from happening..

Posted by: james | Dec 17 2024 20:31 utc | 116

@88
That would require a modicum of virtue, an abundance of love for the human race.
A higher more merciful understanding of the human condition. It would be foolish
to wait for that.

Posted by: Middle-man | Dec 17 2024 20:35 utc | 117

A possible problem with striking decision centers in Kiev etc is that there may be a significant number of active or dormant Russian agents in them, masquerading as loyal Ukrainians.

Posted by: JohninMK | Dec 17 2024 20:38 utc | 118

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 17 2024 20:29 utc | 115]
You could be right there. Putin cannot fall into the trap of playing by liberal rules.
In other news my copy of this arrived today. The introduction by Paul North is a must read. This will be the new edition for the 21st century. We need to read it as though the 20th was a detour down a cul-de-sac.

Posted by: Patroklos | Dec 17 2024 20:40 utc | 119

By rights, the same should be done in Washington and London, but a mere demonstration on Kiev would likely get the message across while not provoking a wider war.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Dec 17 2024 17:00 utc | 15
With all due respect, no, it wouldn’t.

Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 20:41 utc | 120

The mere fact that Washington now uses assassination as a normal and routine policy tool should confirm anyone in knowledge there is no negotiating with these monsters.

Posted by: oldhippie | Dec 17 2024 20:41 utc | 121

Posted by: Keme | Dec 17 2024 16:41 utc
————————————–
The evidence about Syrian chemical weapons were reported in the Turkish parliament in 2015 and published in the Belfast Telegraph.
Erdogan has been President of Turkey since 2014. Turkish MPs claimed in 2015 that ISIS had been caught in Turkey preparing sarin gas precursers for use in Syria and that a criminal prosecution had been mysteriously closed down by the Erdogan government. The released ISIS culprits then escaped into Syria. There was extensive police prosecutions evidence. Turkey also ran ISIS training camps in Turkey and was involved in the CIA ratlines running Libyan weapons to ISIS in Syria. His current self-interest is in exporting Syrian refugees back to Syria which requires a peace settlement with the current crop of jihadist forces fighting there.
https://tinyurl.com/sarin333
https://tinyurl.com/sarin444

Posted by: Damien | Dec 17 2024 20:42 utc | 122

Russian forces eliminated 70 servicemen, two armoured vehicles, five motor vehicles, one 122-mm D-30 howitzer in the Kharkiv area;
Russian forces eliminated 520 servicemen, three pickups, one Gvozdika artillery system, four D-30 howitzers the Stelmakhovka area;
Russian forces eliminated 330 servicemen, one Stryker, one M113, four Kozak, D-30 howitzer, one M119 in the Chasov Yar area;
Russian forces eliminated 425 servicemen, one infantry vehicle, one M113, one HMMWV, Msta-B howitzers in Donetsk region;
Russian forces eliminated up to 205 servicemen, one tank, five motor vehicles, one Akatsiya, one D-30 in the Southern Donetsk area;
Russian forces eliminated up to 75 servicemen, five motor vehicles, one electronic warfare station in Kherson region;
Russian air defense forces intercepted 49 Ukrainian drones over the past day;
Russian air defense forces shot down one U.S.-made HIMARS MLRS projectile over the past day.

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 20:43 utc | 123

Retaliation should take out Zelensky. Once he is gone ukie political leadership collapses. If he is kept alive even Putin’s life is under threat.
Second immediate measure is to destroy any Qatar Turkey gas pipeline project.

Posted by: Jason | Dec 17 2024 20:49 utc | 124

Russian forces eliminated 70 servicemen, Russian forces eliminated 520 servicemen, Russian forces eliminated 330 servicemen, Russian forces eliminated 425 servicemen, Russian forces eliminated up to 205 servicemen, …
Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 20:43 utc | 123
Meanwhile, Russia eliminated zero Zelenskys, Von Der Leyens, Budanovs, Blinkens, Biletskys or Stoltenbergs.

Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 20:50 utc | 125

MorePain4Cakes | Dec 17 2024 20:08 utc | 107–
Thanks for your reply. Russia/USSR’s been a terrorist target since 1941, and even before that depending on definition of terrorism. The only real tool remaining for the Outlaw US Empire is its Terrorist Foreign Legion, which it will use to inflame what’s known as the Arc of Instability that travels the contours of Russia and China’s borderlands in efforts to pull them into quagmires that will retard their growth.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 20:53 utc | 126

Tiraspol @ 13
I spoke very briefly this a.m. with a table of six persons who believed just that story. That Americans and now Europeans are so dimwitted and indoctrinated and faithful as to believe such rubbish is a large part of the problem. Most of said group will claim they haven’t listened to MSM in a decade and haven’t believed a word from MSM since childhood. They reproduce the talking points with precision. All people who are capable and intelligent and accomplished in their professional specialties. And complete morons in public affairs.

Posted by: oldhippie | Dec 17 2024 20:54 utc | 127

wp007 | Dec 17 2024 20:15 utc | 109–
The use of “other weapons” risks the release of pathogens into the environment. Oreshnik’s unique explosive qualities don’t allow for that.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 20:56 utc | 128

Russia (Zakharova and others) are attributing at least some the blame to the NATO allies of Ukraine. While European NATO has mildly suffered from sanctions, the west side of the Atlantic has been living 100% consequence free.
Their behaviour will only change if there are negative consequences at home to what they are doing. That is the real challenge for Russia and it can only realistically be done if China is on board.

Posted by: Fool Me Twice | Dec 17 2024 21:01 utc | 129

“Once they start losing their elite to package bombs they’ll get the message and start playing chess by the rules.
But of course, someone has to volunteer to teach that lesson …”
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 17 2024 17:39 utc | 36
History rhymes. Drones Arch? Packages don’t disappear but the resistance adapts.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 17 2024 21:03 utc | 130

Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 20:50 utc | 125
> Meanwhile, Russia eliminated zero Zelenskys, Von Der Leyens, Budanovs, Blinkens, Biletskys or Stoltenbergs.
Stoltenberg is expired.
Blinken and Zelensky will expire in a month.
Who cares about Ursula.
Who is Biletsky?

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 17 2024 21:05 utc | 131

@karlof1
I didn’t write about “other explosive” weapons, although the Kishal could do the same thing, you just need more than one of them.

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 21:05 utc | 132

the people saying that Russia should stay the course and not respond to this provocation maybe good intentioned, but we have already seen that the US does not compromise, negotiate in good faith or even behave rationally. history has repeated shown that when one country wants a war it will eventually get it regardless of the concessions made to it. Consider that 20 years ago, the US war department revealed plans to go to war with 7 countries (Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and to cap it off Iran) in 5 years. The US promptly launched undeclared wars against all of these countries and as of today, only Iran has not had it’s government overthrown and the country broken. The US openly talks of it’s plan to bring back it’s extreme pressure campaign against Iran with the goal of overthrowing the government and breaking Iran apart. The US may experience delays due to their over-optimistic timetable, but once an idea enter the mind of the inter-agency consensus, it never leaves. A year ago the US senate was openly discussing the boarders of a new “Decolonized” Russia, broken up in 22 regional states each one to be managed by a US imposed liberal dictator (and of course LTGBP-friendly!). If Russia allows provocations to continue without a harsh response to the puppet statements being used it will simply encourage more attacks

Posted by: Kadath | Dec 17 2024 21:05 utc | 133

“Biolabs are not targets worth an Oreshnik. They can be destroyed with other weapons…”
Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 20:15 utc | 109
A nuke would be safe. Anything else? Not so much. Not at all. They are not targets in the same way a nuclear plant isn’t one, but worse.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 17 2024 21:09 utc | 134

Who is Biletsky?
Posted by: hopehely | Dec 17 2024 21:05 utc | 131
Yeah, that’s the level of education I was expecting. »die weißen Rassen der Welt in einem letzten Kreuzzug … gegen die von den Semiten geführten Untermenschen anzuführen«
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrij_Bilezkyj

Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 21:10 utc | 135

🇷🇺⚡️🇺🇦 Deputy Chairman of the Russian Security Council Dmitry Medvedev: We will do everything we can to eliminate those who ordered the killing of Russian General Kirillov, and I mean the military and political leadership of Ukraine.

https://t.me/ResistanceTrench/37141

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 17 2024 21:10 utc | 136

🇷🇺⚡️🇺🇦 Deputy Chairman of the Russian Security Council Dmitry Medvedev: We will do everything we can to eliminate those who ordered the killing of Russian General Kirillov, and I mean the military and political leadership of Ukraine.
https://t.me/ResistanceTrench/37141
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 17 2024 21:10 utc | 136
We. Will. See.

Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 21:14 utc | 137

“The use of “other weapons” risks the release of pathogens into the environment. Oreshnik’s unique explosive qualities don’t allow for that.”
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 20:56 utc | 128
As far as I know nothing short of a nuclear Fireball would immolate a reinforced building with probable basements.
Those Warheads vaporized with explosive force creating a shallow crater. At best you be blasting all that biomaterial into the air.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 17 2024 21:14 utc | 138

“Should it hit back with its whole might and destroy the ‘decision making centers’ in Kiev who are responsible for this incident? (Note: An accurate definition of ‘decision centers’ would include the embassies of the U.S. and Great Britain in Kiev.)”
b.’s arming/loading up this side of the argument.
Russia solely defines/chooses its targets.

Posted by: elmagnostic | Dec 17 2024 21:17 utc | 139

@Nooneuknow | Dec 17 2024 19:59 utc | 101
re: To stop all wars, stop the funding.
The funding is why they start the war in the first place.
Smedley Butler in 1935 wrote ‘War is a racket’ which includes:

The only way to smash this racket is to conscript capital and industry and labor before the nation’s manhood can be conscripted. One month before the Government can conscript the young men of the nation—it must conscript capital and industry and labor. Let the officers and the directors and the high-powered executives of our armament factories and our steel companies and our munitions makers and our shipbuilders and our airplane builders and the manufacturers of all the other things that provide profit in war time as well as the bankers and the speculators, be conscripted—to get $30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 17 2024 21:18 utc | 140

There is only one response to the murders perpetrated by the outlaws in Kiev: Start the Oreshniki in 5 minutes (to paraphrase Ronald Reagan). Start putting the fear of God into the West.
This Nato West is in tatters: people openly speak about the end of the Euro. France has gone through 4 prime ministers in a year, Scholz lost his engineered no confidence vote. And this is only the beginning. The EU had to stage a coup to stop the president elect from being elected. Maia Sadu (the MOST corrupt and dangerous country in Europe after Ukraine) smiles her way through her own coup. It is a sad end … but there it is for all to see.

Posted by: Stierlitz | Dec 17 2024 21:20 utc | 141

@119 patroklos
Perhaps it is time for me to give Marx a better shake.
At least the forward you mention.
I can not unthink Hegel and therefore I can not outrun Marx.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 17 2024 21:24 utc | 142

Some of humanity is in a civilization war against the primacy of the God Of Mammon cult in our world. On the ground it looks like proxy and religious wars with lots of real people dying. To observers like us the game does not seem to be proceeding like we would want but I encourage fellow barflies to think of the bigger context.
Empire is going down. The exact when and where are yet to show themselves but the trajectory is fairly clear if you look at China who has gone from producing 1% to 39% of global automobiles in 20 years.
The God Of Mammon cult is global and can only be brought down by global means and us peons can never come together like China is now. Our job when this is over will be to pick up the pieces in a responsible manner and give sufficient credit to the axis of resistance.
Russia is doing the exact opposite of the shock/awe/genocide of the God of Mammon cult in their execution of their SMO. Russia knows that empire is not to be trusted anymore and instead needs to defeat itself as example of how not to live in a humanistic world. I see them working with China, Iran and the rest of the axis of resistance to force empire to implode….which I think is happening.
This is how society’s change their form of social organization, isn’t if fun?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 17 2024 21:25 utc | 143

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 17 2024 21:14 utc | 138
#########
I take it that you did not read Karlof1’s translation of Putin speaking in Kazakhstan explaining the mechanism of Oreshnik and how it is a super heated high velocity weapon.
I have a difficult time believing that the heat that Oreshnik gives off wouldn’t incinerate anything biological.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 21:25 utc | 144

“…They reproduce the talking points with precision. All people who are capable and intelligent and accomplished in their professional specialties. And complete morons in public affairs.”
Posted by: oldhippie | Dec 17 2024 20:54 utc | 127
touche, old hippie!! you gave me the best laugh of the week. I have many friends/acquaintances like this, nearly all of them stalwart liberal Democrats and “complete morons in public affairs”
a truly sad state of affairs.

Posted by: michaelj72 | Dec 17 2024 21:45 utc | 145

@The Kaker are your parents siblings? Never read funnier BS…. Europe has Blackouts

Posted by: Tobi999 | Dec 17 2024 21:46 utc | 146

Once again, does anyone at the bar see something Trump could exchange with Putin in return for cooperation? Maybe you have a novel view and see something most of us have overlooked.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 17:36 utc | 34
You’re thinking too narrowly. Even knowing that the Kiev government is ruled by Nazis and not agreement capable, Russia’s problems with the West are more far reaching. And yet there are things President Trump can offer:
1) An immediate end to all American sanctions on Russia, while implementing a very mild “tariff” on Russian energy to end the black market.
2) A treaty promise to not assist countries or alliances attacking Russian territory by proxy.
3) American recognition of the DPR and LPR as part of Russia.
4) Obviously, an end to American support for the various legal processes against Russia and her leadership.
5) An end to American support for color revolutions and asymmetric warfare abroad.
Nothing else -truly- matters. VVP’s priority needs to be dividing America from its European “allies” while freeing China from the necessity to co-operate with American sanctions. Actually, none of my suggestions are remotely acceptable to Israel, the CIA, or the American oligarchs backing them and President Trump can expect a protracted fight with those groups. But if VVP can’t find a way to divide the coalition against him, then he’s no more capable of diplomacy than the Austrian dictator, and will lose for the same reasons.
People calling for Oreshniks on this or that target don’t know what they’re talking about. Short of nuclear tipped Oreshniks on Tel Aviv, London, and Washington, Russia is not going to hit the “leadership” of this war and it’s stupid to pretend that is the case.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 21:53 utc | 147

@ Giyane 20
“Assad is a crypto – Jew who has been silenced and Kirrillin who was on his case has now been silenced as well.”
Those are two huge assertions. Got any sources to back them up ?

Posted by: JessDTruth | Dec 17 2024 21:53 utc | 148

@Posted by: Michael J | Dec 17 2024 17:35 utc | 33
Exactly, especially when in the same day two special radioactif cargos have strangely dissapeared in Europe…
You have already two requisites, the motive, the means…
There is too much noise in the media with regard the dissapearance of those cargos…

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Dec 17 2024 21:54 utc | 149

Putin is a great politician in peacetime but not a war leader.
Posted by: Christian | Dec 17 2024 18:20 utc | 62
###############
And yet, he is winning the biggest war since WW2 against the Golden Billion.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 18:26 utc | 67- a-
True, and it’s a huge achievement. But, if he keeps drawing red lines and not following up with actions, he will lose both credibility with Russia’ allies and internal support. Moreover, Natostan will become more and more emboldened and will keep escalating, knowing Putin is unlikely to react. This could eventually reverse the course of the war. What’s the point of having military superiority if you don’ t use it?

Posted by: Christian | Dec 17 2024 22:02 utc | 150

Should it hit back with its whole might and destroy the ‘decision making centers’ in Kiev who are responsible for this incident?

Yes. Every time Russia shows restraint and does not respond proportionately, the Anglos turn up the heat a notch. This has always been the case since World War II. Russia must respond in kind and ‘liquidate’ a general of equal standing and prominence from among the Angloamerican ranks. Not Ukrainian – because its 100% that this was planned with Nato countries’ help, probably by Brits, or the CIA.
He was specifically targeted because he exposed Anglo war crimes and false flags. The intention is to ‘make an example’ so that other prominent rivals wont dare to show the Anglos in a bad light. If this is let go, it will just help them accomplish that goal of suppressing opposition to their genocidal behavior.
The response to this must not be light. It must be severe and proportional. And it must not target Ukrainian henchmen but their patrons who facilitated this.

Posted by: Dodrey Doughertond | Dec 17 2024 22:03 utc | 151

Meanwhile, Russia eliminated zero Zelenskys, Von Der Leyens, Budanovs, Blinkens, Biletskys or Stoltenbergs.
Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 20:50 utc | 125
——————————————————————-
Excuse me, but don’t you claim to be a “Marxist” Tichy? What a bad representative of Marxism you are: Just kill them all and let Stalin sort them out? Is that your motto?

Posted by: Ed | Dec 17 2024 22:03 utc | 152

@They Call Me Mister
And yet there are things President Trump can offer: …
jedes Versprechen und jede Handlung, die jederzeit widerrufen werden kann, ist wertlos. Zu oft hat US (auch Trump) Verträge gekündigt, gebrochen, gelogen, als dass noch irgendwas geglaubt werden kann. Sanktion heute aufgehoben und morgen ein anderes ausgesprochen. Keine Basis für irgendeine stabile Vereinbarung.
Russland braucht etwas festes, was die eigene Sicherheit signifikant sichert.

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 22:05 utc | 153

every promise and every action that can be revoked at any time is worthless. The US (including Trump) has canceled, broken and lied too often for anything to be believed anymore. Sanctions lifted today and another one imposed tomorrow. No basis for any stable agreement.
Russia needs something solid that will significantly secure its own security.

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 22:05 utc | 154

oldhippie | Dec 17 2024 20:41 utc | 121
“… Washington now uses assassination as a normal and routine policy tool should confirm anyone in knowledge there is no negotiating with these monsters.”
Washington has used assassination as a normal tool since 1945. That was always the preferred tool of Jewish conspirators, e.g. the murder of Russian tsars and Interior Ministers. After Truman came to power in 1945, Jewish supremacists took over US policies.
There is a fundamental fork in the road here. The bad guys always only have a small number of leaders and replacements. The good guys always develop lots of leaders, partly as normal development of human potential, and partly to avoid the possibility of decapitation. It might make one think decapitation could be effective against the West, but … AIPAC alone has 16,000 members, and that’s only a fraction of the enemy.

Posted by: JessDTruth | Dec 17 2024 22:06 utc | 155

@ They Call Me Mister 148
If the WSes did everything in your comment, the West would still recreate another Nazi army to attack Russia. Given the reality of Minsk 2 and all the other treaties the West ignored and tore up, there is ONLY one way forward: To seize all of the former Ukraine and fumigate the place against “brown plague” for a couple of generations.

Posted by: JessDTruth | Dec 17 2024 22:10 utc | 156

I’m still amazed at the constant Russian military amateur hour screw ups. A Top General with no Personal Security Team and living in a normal peoples apartment building? A general with knowledge of American and UKE bio labs and he makes statements about them so He knows “things that will get you killed” as we have proved time and time again that is if you know the truth the good old USA will freaking kill you. And STILL he has no security??? WTH!!!
The recurring levels of Russian Military incompetence is unbelievable. So we have multiple nuclear powers fucking around with each other and apparently no adults are in the room in either country??? And everyone laughed at Dr Strangelove? We are living it now…..

Posted by: Icy Reaper | Dec 17 2024 22:17 utc | 157

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 21:53 utc | 148
################
1. Russia likes the sanctions. It has allowed Putin to progress his policy of decoupling from the Western financial system. Ending them would please the Liberal financier class in Russia but it won’t make the Siloviki or General Staff too happy.
2. The Minsk agreements were ratified by the UN Security Council (including America). Treaties are worthless. America doesn’t observe international law when it doesn’t suit its interests. Never forget that America legally has a “One China” policy while it keeps selling weapons to Taiwan and speaking about defending Taiwan from China.
3. Recognition of the Constitutional changes in Russia would be great and can be done immediately. But the Americans recognized Serbia and then carved Kosovo off of it … so …
4. Ending those processes doesn’t mean anything the next time there is a change in the American government. Each new administration reverses the previous one, and has for decades, which is why there has been little domestic progress inside of America. It’s an endless back-and-forth over idiotic wedge issues like abortion and gun ownership.
5. How could Putin hold America to stop being a bad actor in the future? Trump has no control over what future executives may do.
The fact that America cannot deliver on its promises (this is an issue for Europe as well) makes them agreement incapable. That’s a big problem for Trump to overcome.
Anything Trump is going to offer must be tangible, immediate, and difficult to reverse or ignore later.
Putin will be eaten alive in Russia if he makes a bad deal. I think he knows this.
I appreciate your sharing ideas. I think those are conventional and reflect a Western media perspective. I keep hoping that Trump can do something impactful and irreversible to win Putin over. Anything that isn’t concrete won’t fly. Like putting “peacekeepers” inside of Ukraine, and freezing the line of contact. That’s an obvious move to put NATO into Ukraine, which was the entire point of starting the SMO in the first place. Likewise, any promises to keep Ukraine out of NATO (after the West lied about that decades ago and kept expanding) is a non-starter.
I don’t see how the West overcomes its habit of lying and disregarding international law.
Let’s imagine that Trump finds 2 or 3 solid things that Putin would be open to. Would the American government allow Trump to do those things?
Let’s not forget that the DoD ignored Trump when he wanted to pull out of Syria. They tried to stall him from withdrawing from Afghanistan in his first year. The State Department and IC didn’t want him to meet Putin or Chairman Kim.
Trump, even if he has the courage and boldness to come up with clever solutions, is still limited by the fact that the government hasn’t demonstrated a commitment to following his leadership.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:17 utc | 158

Putin will be venerated forever because he did the right thing in the moment and the wrong thing in the eyes of the world.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 17 2024 18:35 utc | 72
Putin is doing everything he can do to avoid ww3.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 17 2024 22:23 utc | 159

True, and it’s a huge achievement. But, if he keeps drawing red lines and not following up with actions, he will lose both credibility with Russia’ allies and internal support. Moreover, Natostan will become more and more emboldened and will keep escalating, knowing Putin is unlikely to react. This could eventually reverse the course of the war. What’s the point of having military superiority if you don’ t use it?
Posted by: Christian | Dec 17 2024 22:02 utc | 151
##########
Here is the thing. I have tried to play a lot of chess in my life and I remain a very poor player.
The Russians learn to be very good at chess at a young age. The issue here isn’t that the Russians can’t find a winning strategy, it’s that they are dealing with psychopaths who think that men can get pregnant and that little girls should have artificial penises surgically attached to them, and that all is a great idea.
Given the enormity of the mental illness and evil Putin is confronted with, let’s cut him some slack. I seriously doubt that anyone at the bar, or who has ever been at the bar, could do better.
I think there is an issue with people who share your concerns sincerely. You guys think the world of the West and NATO when Putin has spent the last 3 years revealing them to be incompetent and weak. The only thing that has made this a fight is the stubbornness of Ukrainians and the sheer hatred of the Nazi brigades for Russians (and eventually the rest of Europe, mark my words).
The former is being liquidated, and the latter will burn out as hate always consumes those who use it perpetually.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:25 utc | 160

every promise and every action that can be revoked at any time is worthless. The US (including Trump) has canceled, broken and lied too often for anything to be believed anymore. Sanctions lifted today and another one imposed tomorrow. No basis for any stable agreement.
Russia needs something solid that will significantly secure its own security.
Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 22:05 utc | 155
Given the reality of Minsk 2 and all the other treaties the West ignored and tore up, there is ONLY one way forward:
Posted by: JessDTruth | Dec 17 2024 22:10 utc | 157
I can address both of your points at once: short of returning Crimea and Donbas along with reparations and war crimes trials, there is no possible plan that the Banderites would accept, and Israel will not be happy if Russia continues to provide weapons to the Middle East even after the fall of Assad. I don’t actually think you need to do anything but wait for the NarcoFuhrer talking to President Trump like the hired help for the Ukrainian project to implode entirely. That Yiddish hobo has worn out his welcome even in “friendly” Western capitols, and Russian diplomats are competent enough to exploit that.
Sure Russia can keep slogging on, but aside from being a waste of resources President Trump is at his best outmaneuvering predictable people. VVP is far better off with dividing the CIA and the EU from the President-elect, while that is still possible.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 22:26 utc | 161

Surely you’re not opposed to hazelnut on the SBU.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Dec 17 2024 19:28 utc | 90

I would quite welcome it.
But what worries me is that Putin wants to inform the ukronazis before the next it.
Kinzhals would do the job quite well too. Without warning.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 17 2024 22:27 utc | 162

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 19:54 utc | 98
I basically agree with you. Only those who organised this terrorist assassination must be eliminated. The sooner the better. Kiev was already targeted. So no problem to carry one more strike.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 17 2024 22:30 utc | 163

I can barely take it anymore. I wrote this in haste. Hope you like.
Say what you want about Vladimir Vladimirovich, but the man isn’t just a political figure—he’s a gravitational force. You don’t have to like him, agree with him, or even understand him to recognize the simple truth: Putin doesn’t bend. He doesn’t flinch. He doesn’t lose.
In an age where Western politicians feel like wet cardboard—soft, pliable, easily torn—Putin stands out like granite. He doesn’t do charm offensives. He doesn’t care if CNN likes him. He doesn’t wear “hope and change” slogans on his sleeve. No. He wears his power like a second skin, and that’s what makes him terrifyingly effective.
Look at him. This is a guy who plays geopolitical chess while most leaders are fumbling with checkers. Sanctions? He doesn’t cry about them. He leans into them like a boxer walking into a punch—absorbing the blow, coming out meaner, more independent, more self-reliant. The Western media rolls out headline after headline predicting his downfall, but there he is, years later, unshaken, still pulling the strings of a country the size of a continent.
You don’t get that from slogans. You don’t get that from approval polls. You get that from pure, undiluted will.
This is the man who stared down NATO expansion, shrugged off international condemnation, and built a state machinery that’s as loyal to him as it is ruthless to his enemies. Don’t like it? Tough. Putin didn’t rise through polite committees or public popularity contests. He rose through the chaos of post-Soviet Russia—an environment that would have eaten most men alive—and clawed his way to the top with a level of tactical brilliance that’s hard to overstate.
His critics say he’s a strongman. That’s not an insult—it’s a statement of fact. People like strongmen when their country is falling apart. They don’t want more speeches about feelings or another decade of “reforms” that reform nothing. They want order. They want stability. Putin gave them both.
When you look at Putin, you’re not seeing a politician—you’re seeing a leader. That’s a dying breed these days. Leaders don’t ask for permission; they make the hard decisions no one else wants to make. Leaders are feared and respected, sometimes in equal measure. Western leaders spend decades arguing about bathrooms and banning plastic straws. Putin builds pipelines, consolidates power, and strengthens his military.
You don’t have to agree with his methods to see the results. He’s dragged Russia from the brink of collapse into a place where it can stand toe-to-toe with the most powerful nations on Earth. The world may call him ruthless, authoritarian, or cold-blooded—and maybe he is. But history doesn’t remember the nice guys. It remembers the winners.
Here’s the thing about Putin that makes people so uncomfortable: He doesn’t play by their rules. Western leaders want him to act like them, think like them, care like them. He doesn’t. He’s immune to moral lectures from countries that can’t decide what their morals even are. He knows the game is power, not popularity, and he plays it better than anyone.
Look at how he handles opposition. Every time someone calls for his end—every time sanctions hit, every time a Western leader tries to put him in his place—he doesn’t rage-tweet or cry on camera. He smiles. He shrugs. And then he counters. Always.
It’s not charisma that keeps him at the helm—it’s results. While his counterparts scramble to keep their coalitions from crumbling and their poll numbers from tanking, Putin just keeps winning. The liberal commentariat has been predicting his demise for two decades. “This will be the end of Putin!” they cry, year after year. And yet, there he is, stronger than before.
Because here’s the uncomfortable truth: Putin doesn’t just endure chaos—he thrives in it. Sanctions make Russia more self-sufficient. Pressure makes his alliances tighter. Conflict makes him double down. He doesn’t buckle when the world turns on him; he feeds off it.
There’s a lesson there, whether you like it or not. In a world where most leaders are content to coast, to compromise, and to be “liked,” Putin is a reminder of something older, darker, and, frankly, more effective.
He’s not here to be loved. He’s not here to be liked. He’s here to win.
And let’s be real: Winning is exactly what he’s doing.”

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:31 utc | 164

Orlov on Oreshnik courtesy of Martyanov’s blog:

Around a century ago it was noticed that when a fast-flying lead bullet or shell hits steel armor, it releases an amount of heat many times greater than the kinetic energy of the projectile (which is half the mass times its velocity squared, E_k=1/2 mv^2) — enough heat to burn a hole right through a steel plate. The reason for this anomaly is the same: electron inertia.
The binding energy in the crystal lattice of metals is approximately twice as large as that released during the explosive oxidation of TNT. At first glance, the explosion should not be much larger than that produced by a conventional explosive — about twice as large. The difference is that the time it takes to release this energy is hundreds of times shorter than during the chemical oxidation reaction in TNT and the energy from it is much more concentrated. Because of this, the destructive power of a Coulomb explosion can be 1000 times greater than that of a conventional explosive. Of course, this is not a nuclear explosion: no atomic nuclei are in any way damaged during this experiment. But it is comparable in its effects, which are much greater than what can be achieved using TNT.
For a bit of perspective, consider that 1 kg of uranium-235 can in theory (if every single atom of it undergoes nuclear fission) result in an explosion equivalent to 20 million kg of TNT. In reality, uranium is never enriched to 100% U-235 (anything above 90% is considered weapons-grade) and only a few percent of the U-235 have time to participate in a nuclear chain reaction before the whole contraption blows up. More realistically, a 1 kg nuclear charge is equivalent to about a million kg of TNT (or 1 kiloton). Meanwhile, 1 kg of metal in a Coulomb explosion will release energy equivalent to about a thousand kg of TNT (or 1 tonne). Nevertheless, these are still huge numbers.
And now we can address the question of what Oreshnik most likely is. Here is what has been publicly announced about it:
Warhead temperature: 4000ºC
Speed: Mach 10 (2.5–3 km/s)
Mass of warhead: ~1.5 tonnes
Perusing Dmitry Mendeleev’s Periodic Table of Elements we find just one candidate for warhead metal: tungsten. It melts at 3422ºC and boils at 5555ºC. Taking the mass of the warhead (which, we assume for the sake of simplicity, consists entirely of a single shaped piece of tungsten) at 1,500 kg, it produces the equivalent of 1,500,000 kg of TNT or 1,5 kilotons — a respectable amount for a small tactical nuke.

David G Horsman | Dec 17 2024 21:14 utc | 138–
No one on this blog or anywhere else aside from those who have directly inspected the Oreshnik strike site have any idea what damage it caused, although Russians have a very good idea based on their ISR and the above computations.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 22:33 utc | 165

I seriously doubt that anyone at the bar, or who has ever been at the bar, could do better.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:25 utc | 161
Of course, we do not have the mass of information he has to take the necessary decisions. So… trust and support Russia!

Posted by: Naive | Dec 17 2024 22:35 utc | 166

you’ll find similar reports about drones in 2020, exact same.
Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 18:30 utc | 69

The US are busy shifting as much materiel to eastern europe as possible in the dying days of sleezy Joe’s admin. That uses lots of C-17 military transport aircraft. What better way to smokescreen huge aircraft at 15000ft than by telling the gullibles to be on the lookout for car sized drones at 2000ft?
And now we hear these ‘drones’ have been spotted near military airbases in Germany and the UK.
Colour me unsurprised.

Posted by: Oldhand | Dec 17 2024 22:36 utc | 167

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 22:33 utc | 166
It is enough to see that the ukronazis and their supports – while pretending that there was little damage – never posted satellite photos of the site after the strike.

Posted by: Naive | Dec 17 2024 22:39 utc | 168

American foreign policy is embodied in the history of the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1854 and 1868.
When you understand what the root character of the United States is, you understand where this is headed.

Posted by: ZT | Dec 17 2024 22:39 utc | 169

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 17 2024 22:33 utc | 166
Although there might be some truth to that, there are few materials that at 4000C in the plentiful presence of oxygen do not burn violently. Unless they are already at the highest oxidation state. Pure metals are not. So no strange physics involved.
If this is so, the trick is how to keep them from burning during flight but let them release that chemical energy upon impact.

Posted by: alek_a | Dec 17 2024 22:41 utc | 170

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:31 utc | 165 I’m afraid this is intended to be high praise, but it’s just hero worship. Where it’s not puerile, it relies on fascist esthetics—note the word esthetics. It makes Putin look bad, not least because he is not obviously winning. You can argue the SMO is slowly winning, but it takes an argument and simply is not plain to see.
If I was working on biowarfare, I would put my labs where I had total control, up to and including doing experiments on rank-and-file soldiers and/or prisoners. I would never put them in a war zone subject to stray bombs and enemy soldiers, or even unreliable local police.
Last, sorry to be hard-hearted, but right or wrong Kirillov was just another soldier and his death is not a game changer. It’s not even enough to be a provocation. Is the idea it’s supposed to be some big deal a back-handed way of claiming the lame-duck is poisoning the well? I have no idea why anyone in Ukraine would listen to Biden’s people any more, just pretending to. Serve time, work to rule, till the new boss comes in. Or, possibly, get away with what you can now that you don’t have to listen to the old boss anymore. (It’s not likely that there’s Ukrainian acting on a hint dropped by the incoming team, sucking up early, but even that’s possible.)

Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 17 2024 22:43 utc | 171

Let’s imagine that Trump finds 2 or 3 solid things that Putin would be open to. Would the American government allow Trump to do those things?
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:17 utc | 159
I’m not sure why the Russian General Staff would hate a flood of foreign currency coming in to Russia for its commodities, or an end to sanctions which reduce Russia’s profit from its natural resources. Ideally VVP and Trump would profit handsomely from such a deal, while the pressure on the EU to drop its own sanctions would be excruciating. The alternative would be establishing nationalist governments in European nations, followed by a collapse of the EU itself.
The CIA, EU, and the ISW would absolutely HATE this deal, which is why sanctions relief is a tangible and immediate benefit. There is no such thing as an enduring treaty while the CIA is a going concern, but VVP clearly isn’t interested in provoking a wider European war. I guarantee you that his number crunchers are calculating whether the end of Western sanctions would outweigh whatever terrorist damage a Ukrainian rump could do to Russia.
Genuine global change would require major changes in the American deep state, and that won’t be made before 2025.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 22:46 utc | 172

I seriously doubt that anyone at the bar, or who has ever been at the bar, could do better.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:25 utc | 161
Even if I theoretically could, I’m not Russian and would never presume to handle the politics of a county where I will never fluently speak the native language.
Could I run the UK better than the current government? Yes, but so could a dead gerbil or a Calcutta vagrant. America would be much harder: I would be lucky to survive the month. Which is why all Americans need to be profoundly grateful for President Trump, who has literally survived everything thrown at him.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 22:51 utc | 173

Assassinating Kirillov was an act of truly dumb desperation. First, Russia has exceptional numbers of highly qualified molecular biologists and virologists – thus, many high qualified affiliates who are no doubt thoroughly capable of testifying in international court systems regarding the extensive (not just the Ukraine) US/EU/UK biolabs situated around the world. Note that at the beginning of the Russian Ukraine conflict an unspecified number of the Ukraine biolabs were raided by Russia although there was little discussion of this in the mainstream press (or in Russian press). It would be highly improbable that such information was not shared with the Chinese, since in years earlier the country experienced unusual animal and human mysteriously agressive and virulent diseases. Note US is still heavily engaged in “gain of function” research – think such as Ralph Baric UNC. Also would be surprised if Iranian scientists not also aware. This assassination clearly points to issues USBWL would prefer remain secret; also, can presume that Russia/China know the locations of every level 4 biolab in the US and Europe. Again, a disinhibited, impulsive act with virtually no strategic value except to the Axis of Resistance.

Posted by: abierno | Dec 17 2024 22:51 utc | 174

Oddly the West are largely Christian nations, where Jesus spoke of forgiveness and turning the other cheek. However we via the absurd linking of Judeo-Christianity have been taught instead to follow the Jewish tradition of conflict, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, extermination to the last breathing body. Even now we look upon Jews exterminating a race, bombing hospitals and murdering children, and have the unmitigated audacity to call it self defense. We have some serious moral failings we need address.

Posted by: Organic | Dec 17 2024 22:56 utc | 175

Trump’s peace allures may thereby become a real alternative for Russia to climb out of the RAND trap.

To the contrary – RAND’s trap for Russia became a trap for ‘the West’. The US and the entire nato are bogged down in Ukraine and they are going for bankruptcy. And Russia seems to be prolonging it as long as it can to make that happen. It could have taken over Ukraine 2 years ago entirely – it was just 2 hours from Kiev and even took over its airport. But it didn’t. Instead it started running an attrition war. That is the reason why Shoigui was in charge of the operation as his fame comes from accomplishing a lot with scarce resources. Also the conflict between Prighozin and Shoigu was for that reason – Prigozhin was burning thousands of artillery shells every day and Shoigu needed everyone to economize.
Also this war is going well for Russia – it is running it with minimal discomfort to its society and the attached sanctions even helped it restart a lot of sectors in its economy through import replacement. Moreover, its preventing the US from engaging anyone else elsewhere, so the entire Global South has an incentive to help Russia in every way it can. Basically China, India, Brazil, Iran, South Africa, Saudi Arabia – everyone is funding Russia in this war.
So there isn’t any reason for Russia to stop a war that is going so well without accomplishing any of its objectives. It absolutely would not be as stupid as to accept any kind of frozen conflict or temporary concession from anyone including Trump either.

Posted by: Dodrey Dougherton | Dec 17 2024 22:58 utc | 176

fyi
https://x.com/TheDuranReal/status/1868930506156613644
The Duran @TheDuranReal
The Duran: Episode 2091
Putin’s Novorossiya speech. Trump, Ukraine drawdown process @AMercouris @AXChristoforou

Posted by: michaelj72 | Dec 17 2024 23:02 utc | 177

@ oldhippie | Dec 17 2024 20:54 utc | 127
They probably get their “news and insights” from the likes of NPR. In my experience, liberals think of NPR (and even rags like The Atlantic and The New Yorker) as “alternative media”, not as MSM, which, of course, they are.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 17 2024 23:03 utc | 178

But what worries me is that Putin wants to inform the ukronazis before the next it.
Kinzhals would do the job quite well too. Without warning.
Posted by: Naive | Dec 17 2024 22:27 utc | 163
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I think that the warnings will end soon. However, the point of the warnings is to reduce the death of innocent civilians. You may not appreciate that now, but scores will have to be settled before the UN and the ICC after the conflict. History will note that Russia was the good guy, and Ukraine and NATO were complete assholes.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 17 2024 23:03 utc | 179

I’ve made this point quite a few times and I think it may apply here to the recent provocation of the murder of Lieutenant General Igor Kirillov.
I mean a War Crimes Tribunal of Ukrainian leaders as well as their sponsors.
1. You don’t engage in tit-for-tat assassinations if your intent is to prosecute the other side, following its inevitable defeat, for such actions.
2. The current Russian President besides having a legal background, is, generally, a remarkably legalistic leader. He’s demonstrated this approach more than once, the most important example of which was the start of the SMO and the process of the failure of the various Minsk-n agreements.
3. You can actually go back to the Soviet era leadership and their approach to the Nuremberg Tribunal following WWII. They had insisted on the prosecution, not only of the Nazi political leadership, but also, and perhaps more importantly, of the political and financial sponsors of the Nazis. The Soviets failed to get their way in 1946.
I do not think they will fail to get their way this time. And that moral decapitation of the West will be a death blow. The Western media can rail and shriek all it likes; the rest of the planet will belch a stream of vomit in Western faces. And it will stick forever.
4. Of course, save the best for last. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Who doesn’t know this should shut up about politics.

Posted by: NH | Dec 17 2024 23:04 utc | 180

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:31 utc | 165
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I did not write this comment.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:05 utc | 181

@alek_a
you have not understood anything, take a look at plasma physics and composite materials, maybe then you will get some enlightenment

Posted by: wp007 | Dec 17 2024 23:06 utc | 182

LoveDonbass@2231 Dec 17
Tour de Force. Congratulations…and thanks.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 17 2024 23:07 utc | 183

Excuse me, but don’t you claim to be a “Marxist” Tichy? What a bad representative of Marxism you are: Just kill them all and let Stalin sort them out? Is that your motto?
Posted by: Ed | Dec 17 2024 22:03 utc | 153
Do you somehow find it anti-Communist or morally repugnant to point out how the workers of the Ukraine are the ones dying rather than their Nazi bosses? Now shut the fuck up, fake. You’d still argue “restraint” and keeping the gas flowing if the CIA blew up the Kremlin and murdered Putin tomorrow.

Posted by: Tichy | Dec 17 2024 23:08 utc | 184

Putin didn’t rise through polite committees or public popularity contests. He rose through the chaos of post-Soviet Russia—an environment that would have eaten most men alive—and clawed his way to the top with a level of tactical brilliance that’s hard to overstate.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:31 utc | 165
No one has to agree with everything you said, but this hits the nail on the head. Putin had a hand considerably worse than the Austrian fellow did, and he played it brilliantly. In the same vein, Donald Trump has come back of four years of relentless and sometimes literal attack to regain the presidency and discard the people who tried to dominate his first term. Most non-American commentators are completely clueless about how the American system actively operates, never mind what President Trump actually does. Here’s a hint: Rubio and Kellogg mean a lot less to the peace efforts than Viktor Orban and Tucker Carlson do.
Game recognizes game, and VVP would be smart to offer President Trump a small bit of leeway.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 23:09 utc | 185

I did not write this comment.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:05 utc | 183
Well, dang. But it’s still better than relying on a Disqus comment system.

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 23:10 utc | 186

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 22:46 utc | 173
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You may be unaware that Russia has been making money hand over fist since the sanctions happened. The Western markets are fraught with exposure to future sanctions and theft. Maybe Trump could facilitate the release of all frozen Russian funds, but I am not sure the Europeans are ready to do that. That would be immediate and irreversible.
The West still buys Russian oil, after the Indians refine it, and China is leveraging the cheap energy to crank up their productive capacity tying the two nations closer together.
My point remains. Trump has little to offer and what little we can think of, are all things that he cannot deliver if there is a time dimension involved.
Russia is in the driver’s seat because they have won on the battlefield while simultaneously winning diplomatically with the DPRK and in the Sahel.
If Trump survives to inauguration, his 24-hour promise is unlikely to be realized. That’s ok. Trump supporters will rationalize it as all being CNN’s fault, or the Democrat’s fault, or the Deep State, which is a catchall for everything that impedes Trump.
I couldn’t be happier. The longer Trump cannot act, the further BRICS and the Global South progresses.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:13 utc | 187

In a war, military officers are legitimate targets.
I would suggest the Russians get it and get on with it.
If they want to have a war without having a war, and call it the SMO, this type thing will inevitably happen.

Posted by: Julian | Dec 17 2024 23:15 utc | 188

Posted by: steven t johnson | Dec 17 2024 22:43 utc | 172
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 23:09 utc | 187
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Both of you are replying to a comment that I did not write.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:15 utc | 189

The usual assortment of Foghorn Leghorn chicken hawks.
Putin will do what makes the most sense. He has been doing it for 20+ years; I see no evidence that trend is going to stop yet.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 17 2024 23:16 utc | 190

@b
I would note that the characterizations of Lucy and Charlie you put forward are out of date. They were true in the past, but today it is the West that is Charlie, and Putin that is Lucy while the football is a face saving exit out of the Ukraine disaster.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 17 2024 23:18 utc | 191

And yet there are things President Trump can offer:
1) An immediate end to all American sanctions on Russia
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 21:53 utc | 148
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Total nonstarter. Most of the sanctions were imposed by Congress and no president can revoke them.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 17 2024 23:19 utc | 192

A good hazelnut target could be Bilche-Volitsko-Uherske PSG
almost 20 bln m3 of LNG could be something worth seeing going out with a bang. (mother of all big badaboom)
In march there was a warning shot, this could be the big one.
And europe would lose half the storage in ukraine. As winter gets cold.
Sweet!

Posted by: Newbie | Dec 17 2024 23:20 utc | 193

It is like you’re calling it and Russia knows it — to retaliate tit for tat at this point would be foolish with Trump coming to office in a month. However, if a President that they can work with does not end up with power in America, they will take count of all the retaliations they didn’t do and trade them in for one big fat nasty retaliation.

Posted by: dirtforker | Dec 17 2024 23:21 utc | 194

Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Dec 17 2024 23:10 utc | 189
###########
You can block people on Disqus. An issue is that Disqus, like most Western services, exercises censorship. There is no way people could criticize Zionism to the degree that we do at the bar on Disqus.
This “system” allows username hijacking, which completely erodes the confidence that what we’re reading and responding to was written by the claimed author.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:22 utc | 195

I cant imagine a more disgusting and derogatory communication than Bidens “well son of a bitch” words. They all kneel before me in the end. A dark king intoxicated with his power. It was a extraordinary revelation Bidens cohorts on stage shocked at his gloating and his stupidity at revealing it. There it is revealed. The USA openly buying Ukraine with bribes. Why is this not the subject of every television show till the end of time? The basis of the war. Buying Ukraine as a tool to harm Russia. That gloating. They always fold. Russia will fold. We do what we want. We kill who we want. We buy who we want.
This is the basis of the Ukraine war.
Thats still there. That gloating entity. It doesnt leave with any president. It doesnt come with any president. It is the constant presidents come and go. War? Of course. Killing? Of course. Injustice? Of course. Nuclear war. Of course. Its us. Well son of a bitch.
Thats the true face. All the rest is clown show.
Understanding the true face the Ukraine war would be abandoned right? A terrible mistake of one sickening corrupt president right? A million dead for nothing but we will end it now right?
Wrong.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/aPkcUWaTOS36

Posted by: Fred | Dec 17 2024 23:23 utc | 196

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 22:31 utc | 165
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I did not write this comment.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:05 utc | 183
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Well, granted that one of you is fake, but the comment at 22:31 utc | 165, while a bit starry-eyed, is essentially correct. One would be proud to take credit for it.

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 17 2024 23:25 utc | 197

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 17 2024 23:19 utc | 195
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Great point.
The US President also cannot do much about EU sanctions which are substantial. 14 tranches of sanctions now, I believe.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:26 utc | 198

Posted by: malenkov | Dec 17 2024 23:25 utc | 200
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I like Putin a lot but I don’t forget that he is a politician and if it served Russia, he would send a Kinzhal to my home.
Also, hagiography is not my style.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 17 2024 23:28 utc | 199

I will expand further.
Every day that passes, Russia thrives even with the full weight of the West arrayed against it: economic, military, diplomatic and so forth.
Every day, the Western governments weaken against “far right” opposition.
Every day, inflation eats into Western populations’ standard of living even as national and personal debt levels rise.
Every day, vaunted Western wunderwaffe demonstrate ever greater ineffectiveness even as Russia demonstrates literal evolutionary generations of new military technology.
Every day, pronouncements by the West are shown demonstrably false, both short and medium term even as Russia steadily progresses with its simple and public objectives.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 17 2024 23:29 utc | 200