Why These New Russian Missiles Are Real Game Changers
In response to a U.S. decision to arrange for ballistic missile attacks from Ukraine into Russia, the great magician and President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin pull a rabbit from his hat.
Yesterday the six independent war heads of a new intermediate range ballistic missile hit the Yuzhmash missile plant in Dnipro Ukraine.
Until now the new missile and its mission profile had been unknown. It is the clear counter to decade long efforts of the U.S. to gain supremacy, especially in Europe, over Russia.
Missiles can be classified by the range they are able to achieve:
Short-Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM) are designed to target enemy forces within a range of approximately 1,000 kilometers. Typically employed in tactical scenarios, they allow for rapid response to regional threats.
Medium-Range Ballistic Missiles (MRBM) extend the operational range to about 3,500 kilometers. These systems enhance a nation’s deterrent capabilities by allowing strikes on targets further away without resorting to intercontinental systems.
Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBM) represent the longest range category, with capabilities exceeding 5,500 kilometers. These missiles serve as a strategic deterrent, capable of delivering payloads across continents and significantly impacting global security dynamics.
The U.S., Russia and China have developed all three types of weapons. In the late 1980s, on the initiative of the Soviet leader Mikhail Grobaschev, the U.S. and the Soviet Union signed the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty):
The INF Treaty banned all of the two nations' nuclear and conventional ground-launched ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and missile launchers with ranges of 500–1,000 kilometers (310–620 mi) (short medium-range) and 1,000–5,500 km (620–3,420 mi) (intermediate-range). The treaty did not apply to air- or sea-launched missiles. By May 1991, the nations had eliminated 2,692 missiles, followed by 10 years of on-site verification inspections.
While the deployment of missiles of a certain range were prohibited missile development continued. Around 2008 the Russian Federation used the base design of the RS-24 (Yars) intercontinental missile to develop a more flexible version with a lighter payload. The result was the easier to handle RS-26 missile. While this could and did achieve the range needed to be classified as an intercontinental missile its payload was too small to be really effective.
In early 2018 the Russian Federation decided to halt all further development of the RS-26 and invested its money into the more promising hypersonic glide vehicle Avanguard.
A few month after Russia had taken the decision to mothball the RS-24 development the U.S. withdrew from the INF-treaty. While the U.S. claimed that certain cruise missile developments in Russia were in breach of the treaty the real reason for the withdrawal was elsewhere:
[T]he US need to counter a Chinese arms buildup in the Pacific, including within South China Sea, was another reason for their move to withdraw, because China was not a signatory to the treaty. US officials extending back to the presidency of Barack Obama have noted this.
However the U.S. withdrawal from the INF aligned with the 2002 withdrawal of the U.S. from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty which had limited missile defenses. Shortly thereafter the U.S. announced to build 'anti missile installations' in eastern Europe. These installation can be easily re-purposed to fire offensive cruise missiles towards Russia.
In July 2024 NATO announced that the U.S. would, starting in 2026, deploy nuclear capable intermediate range missiles in Germany.
This would recreated the dangerous situation Europe had seen before the INF treaty was put into place. A nuclear war within Europe, without the involvement of the continental U.S., will again become a possibility.
Russia had to finally react to the threat. A few weeks after the NATO announcement Vladimir Putin responded to those plans:
The US administration and the German government made a noteworthy statement concerning their plans to deploy US long-range precision missile systems in Germany in 2026.The missiles could reach ranges of major Russian state and military facilities, administrative and industrial centres, and defence infrastructure. The flight time to targets on our territory of such missiles, which in the future may be equipped with nuclear warheads, would be about ten minutes.
The United States has already conducted exercises to practice deployment of Typhon missile systems from its territory to Denmark and the Philippines. This situation is reminiscent of the events of the Cold War related to the deployment of American medium-range Pershing missiles in Europe.
If the United States implements these plans, we will consider ourselves free from the previously assumed unilateral moratorium on the deployment of medium and shorter-range strike weapons, including increasing the capabilities of the coastal troops of our Navy.
Today, the development of such systems in Russia is nearing completion. We will take mirror measures to deploy them, taking into account the actions of the United States, its satellites in Europe and in other regions of the world.
Yesterday's attack on the Yuzhmash complex in Dnepropetrovsk (video) was the first demonstration of the new Russian capability.
The new missiles, named Oreshnik (hazel), is a RS-26 variant with a shorter range and a payload of six (instead of the previously four) multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles (MIRV). Each reentry vehicle can carry six sub-munitions. The payload can be inert, destroying the target by the shear power of its kinetic energy, high-explosive or nuclear.
The missile uses solid fuel and is road mobile. It can be fired on short notice from camouflaged positions.
Launched from Russia the missile can reach any target in Europe in less than 20 minutes. On reentry into the atmosphere the warheads of the missile reach hypersonic speeds of 3-4 kilometer per second. There is no air defense system in the world that could stop them.
The surprising and successful demonstration of such an enormous capability is a wake-up call for European strategists.
Lulled in by neoconservative talk of western supremacy and presumed Russian inabilities the Europeans were eager to connect their fate to a proxy war against Russia. Having been defeated in the fight for the commodities of the Donbas region they have pushed for extending the reach of their weapons into Russia.
The results are now in. Europe is defenseless against new Russian weapons which can reach every political and industrial center of Europe with devastating power and with just minutes of notice.
Luckily there is still time to change course.
While announcing the new capabilities the Russian president also made an offer (video) to limit their deployment:
We are developing intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles in response to US plans to produce and deploy intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles in Europe and the Asia-Pacific region. We believe that the United States made a mistake by unilaterally destroying the INF Treaty in 2019 under a far-fetched pretext. Today, the United States is not only producing such equipment, but, as we can see, it has worked out ways to deploy its advanced missile systems to different regions of the world, including Europe, during training exercises for its troops. Moreover, in the course of these exercises, they are conducting training for using them.As a reminder, Russia has voluntarily and unilaterally committed not to deploy intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles until US weapons of this kind appear in any region of the world.
To reiterate, we are conducting combat tests of the Oreshnik missile system in response to NATO’s aggressive actions against Russia. Our decision on further deployment of intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles will depend on the actions of the United States and its satellites.
Should the U.S. and its European lackeys commit further offenses against Russia, more severe Oreshnik 'tests', under field conditions and potentially aiming at targets beyond Ukraine, will be pursued:
We will determine the targets during further tests of our advanced missile systems based on the threats to the security of the Russian Federation. We consider ourselves entitled to use our weapons against military facilities of those countries that allow to use their weapons against our facilities, and in case of an escalation of aggressive actions, we will respond decisively and in mirror-like manner. I recommend that the ruling elites of the countries that are hatching plans to use their military contingents against Russia seriously consider this.
Let's hope they will do so.
Posted by b on November 22, 2024 at 15:49 UTC | Permalink
next page »It may be that NATO has nothing to compare with or to counter these new Russian systems. Might be a wake up call to sane persons, but the US has Blinken, Nuland and Sullivan and the Raytheon Guy.
Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Nov 22 2024 16:05 utc | 3
Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Nov 22 2024 16:05 utc | 3
.
So NO sensible people at the top.
And in Europe ONLY vassals.
Posted by: ossii | Nov 22 2024 16:07 utc | 4
thanks b..
i don't have a lot of confidence in the ruling elites to back down.. we are in the middle of a poker game and it doesn't appear like they are going to fold their hands...
membership in nato is coming at an increasingly high price.. i wonder if any of them are getting buyers remorse?? meanwhile the fiefdom in washington and brussels continues on it's merry way with the media in tow.. on the other hand - real people are getting more nervous by the day..
Posted by: james | Nov 22 2024 16:14 utc | 5
Zelensky: "The missiles will speak for themselves."
Putin: "They have spoken...right up your keister."
Posted by: robjira | Nov 22 2024 16:16 utc | 6
comment from william that ought to be on this thread -
"Reminder: Hypersonic missiles are shrouded in plasma when traveling through atmosphere. Plasma absorbs radio waves (radar) like there is no tomorrow, rendering hypersonic missiles largely invisible to radar (doppler radar can detect atmospheric disturbances from these missiles' passage, but not see the missiles themselves). These missiles came in at a fairly low angle, so they might not have left the atmosphere. If so, then they would have been "cloaked" in plasma through their entire flight. They would have to be detected and tracked optically. I realize some people like to ascribe god-like omniscience to American spy satellites, but they cannot optically watch every square meter of the Earth's surface every second of the day with sufficient resolution to track missiles. Radar is necessary for that, and radar doesn't work well with hypersonics.
Point being that the Yuzhmash attack could have been a complete surprise, in that nothing was seen coming. That should make the NATOadies nervous.
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 22 2024 13:42 utc | 320"
Posted by: james | Nov 22 2024 16:17 utc | 7
Some jaw-dropping cope from the ISW:
Neither the Oreshnik ballistic missile strike nor Putin's November 21 statement represent a significant inflection in Russian strike capabilities or likeliness to use a nuclear weapon. Russian forces fire nuclear-capable Iskander ballistic missiles, Kinzhal hypersonic ballistic missiles, and nuclear-capable Kh-101 cruise missiles against Ukraine on a regular basis. Previous Russian missile strikes have targeted industrial and critical infrastructure including within Dnipro City that caused greater damage.[9] The only fundamentally new characteristic of the Russian strikes against Dnipro City on November 21 was the Oreshnik missile itself, which ostentatiously showcased reentry vehicles to amplify the spectacle of the strike and further imply a nuclear threat.[10][11] The West maintains credible deterrence options and Putin's nuclear saber-rattling should not constrain Western officials from choosing to further aid Ukraine. US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Director Bill Burns cautioned Western policymakers against fearing Putin's nuclear rhetoric in September 2024, describing Putin as a "bully" who will "continue to saber rattle from time to time."[12]The full, sorry excuse for “analysis” can be read here: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-november-21-2024
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Nov 22 2024 16:18 utc | 8
While everyone seems interested in the missile itself, I find myself more intrigued by the MIRV. How accurate are the submunitions? What is the maximum distance between separate submunition targets? I think those are interesting questions.
For example, can you load 16 such MIRVs on a Sarmat missile and target 96 small but hardened targets, each 4 to 18 miles from eachother? How many Sarmats you need to reliably hit 450 of such targets without wasting a single nuclear warhead?
Posted by: Erlindur | Nov 22 2024 16:19 utc | 9
Russia's experimental hypersonic communications exercise on Thursday was an immediate response to a Storm Shadow assault, which in turn followed USA's ATACMS assault by two days. Future field experiments will immediately follow any further missile assaults on Russia, it seems reasonably apparent.
It's possible there's a roadblock to escalation, here. We just witnessed the total eclipse of western military technology. That's the story b fills in, with this terrific post. I actually feel hopeful, for the first time in a long time.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Nov 22 2024 16:23 utc | 10
Has anybody noticed any signs of comprehension of this event with Oreshnik among the western officials?
Posted by: Salmon | Nov 22 2024 16:23 utc | 11
The US is repeating its "Madman strategy" again.
"President Richard Nixon and his national security adviser Henry Kissinger believed they could compel "the other side" to back down during crises in the Middle East and Vietnam by "push[ing] so many chips into the pot" that Nixon would seem 'crazy' enough to "go much further," according to newly declassified documents published today by the National Security Archive."
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb517-Nixon-Kissinger-and-the-Madman-Strategy-during-Vietnam-War/
Posted by: p3t3r | Nov 22 2024 16:23 utc | 12
Salmon @11
that's the real tell - and so far it seems like western leaders are just pooh-poohing this latest warning
Posted by: Ezzie | Nov 22 2024 16:30 utc | 13
These clowns have nothing, they know nothing, they can't create anything of equal value but want to give “expert opinions” on the new weapon.
Posted by: guest from franconia | Nov 22 2024 16:32 utc | 14
Lavrov today at a short presser in Brest:
Question: Yesterday, President Vladimir Putin addressed not only the people of our country, but also the architects of the escalation of the conflict in Ukraine. Is there an understanding now that the signal has been heard, "received"? Will the current US administration try to add fuel to the fire before it leaves?Sergey Lavrov: It is difficult for me to decide for them or make guesses. Those who allowed Vladimir Zelensky to use these missiles "allowed themselves." Everyone already knows this very well. President of Russia Vladimir Putin has spoken about this more than once. Without their direct participation, none of the missiles would have flown anywhere.
As for the reaction to our response, as far as I understand, Vladimir Zelensky was frightened. He began to accuse his masters of leaving him unarmed in the face of such an "action" by the Russian Federation. This is a useful result. Because being closer to reality and feeling it on your own "skin" is already useful.
As for what to expect from US President Joe Biden and his outgoing administration. There is an element in the ATACMS supply and the authorization of the British and French to use Storm Shadow and SCALP to leave a "bad legacy" to the next administration. The Democratic Party, apparently, has this in their blood. In December 2016, when then-US President Barack Obama was already leaving and there were three weeks left before Donald Trump's inauguration, Barack Obama put a "pig" on his successor – he expelled dozens of Russian diplomats. In total, there were more than one hundred and twenty people (including family members). Moreover, they demanded to leave Washington on the day when there was no direct flight to Moscow. And he and his little children, with all their belongings, traveled by bus for six hours to New York. In general, they created additional "comfort". At the same time, Barack Obama stole (there is no other way to put it) two objects of Russian diplomatic property. We are still not given access there. The first weeks of Donald Trump's stay in the White House were largely "undermined" in terms of his plans – a normal dialogue with the Russian Federation. [My Emphasis]
Too bad the people at ISW and elsewhere can't "feel it on their skin" as they need that sensation more than Zelinsky.
From what I've seen in the Western media, the US and its' lackies still don't believe the Russians will do anything. I think the US will probably have the UK or France launch more attacks in Russia in the next week or so. At that point I think Russia will publicly attack a NATO member (a non-nuclear attack, maybe a missile strike on a arms depot in Poland or Romania). Has any one seen anything that suggests the US was taken aback by Russia's latest attack?
Posted by: Kadath | Nov 22 2024 16:42 utc | 16
Oreshnik is but Putin's tip!
Don't forget Russia's new nuclear long-range torpedo Poseidon that could give the Brutish islands a one-way ticket to join Atlantis...
Posted by: ThirdWorldDude | Nov 22 2024 16:45 utc | 17
Russia, trying to scare FUKUS. Did it work? Doubtful. It did look spectacular but not much of a light show if it wasn't. Like the Boogy Man creeping around in the dark. I'm thinking the glowie things wouldn't show up during the day, and with no big explosions, the locals might pass it off a errant Patriot launches falling on the ground.....such is the level of de escalation...if you got em, scare em.
One little salvo, try three maybe, one right up on the 404 Polish border, one over by Romania and the current attack zone might get some attention......might.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 22 2024 16:49 utc | 18
If them there missiles are so, hmmm, frightening, maybe Russia could issue and exponential warning, today one salvo, tomorrow two, the next day four, would it take more than a week, as some have suggested, to end this horrible b movie (no pun intended) of a SlogMow turned Soap Opera Death Watch.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 22 2024 16:56 utc | 19
I recall from the very early days of the SMO, Putin said something along the lines of
“you ain’t seen nothing yet”
I think this is what he had in mind…
Posted by: Italanon | Nov 22 2024 16:57 utc | 20
Putin's mimicry of US hostilities towards Russia are rationally defensive. Russia must challenge US aggression in order to survive the attempt by Western capital to consume Russian sovereignty and turn it into a colony of extraction for primitive accumulation. The West cannot survive without expanding its capitalist dominance. Russian civilization has survived because it has repeatedly and successfully defeated many attempts by the West to subjugate it. Russian responses to these challenges makes Russian civilization stronger and weakens the West. The conflict is existential. Russian must defend of its sovereignty or perish and the West must expand its market dominance to remain viable.
Posted by: Keme | Nov 22 2024 16:59 utc | 21
Some jaw-dropping cope from the ISW:
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Nov 22 2024 16:18 utc | 8
Institute for the Starting of Wars : Their job is manufacturing conflicts around the world for a few madmen material comfort and their own.
Those ones are in fear of loosing they job and their income source past January 20th , it's not just for cope.
You see, the Kagans and alike are a real menace to society. They real place is ontop the vanity pyre.
Posted by: Savonarole | Nov 22 2024 17:00 utc | 22
I would like to suggest that future "into Russia" attacks will result in an immediate counter-attack on the sources.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 22 2024 17:00 utc | 23
The West is betting without nukes, Russia is unlikely to win a war against NATO. They could be right and perhaps that is why they are pushing Putin without fears.
Posted by: Pac | Nov 22 2024 17:02 utc | 24
NATO chief Mark Rutte is visiting U.S. President-elect Donald Trump at his residence in Florida, Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf reported on Friday, citing sources.
Rutte flew on a Dutch government plane, the newspaper said. As NATO’s chief does not have a personal aircraft, the alliance often rents planes from NATO allies.
Online flight radars show the Dutch government plane landed in Florida.
Both the Dutch government and NATO did not immediately reply to a request for comment.
Posted by: Apollyon | Nov 22 2024 17:04 utc | 25
Russia had better weapons than NATO on the day the SMO started. For every one of the last 1,000 days this has been going on (think about that - a thousand freaking days) Russia has had better weapons than NATO. It has not stopped the West from doing anything it has done so far, and neither will this.
The only thing that will stop the West is actually stopping them, using the better weapons, interdicting the battlespace. Putin has never seriously done this.
It seems strange to surmise that the ex-KGB officer and all-around consummate badass, Vladimir Putin, has not read his Machiavelli, but that appears to be the case, especially the parts concerning:
A) The need to end wars as quickly and decisively as possible.
B) The need to avoid a middle position between peace and war. The enemy must be either quickly appeased or ruthlessly destroyed. Half-measures do nothing but leave a wounded and angry opponent still strong enough to fight back.
C) The need to not show ones strength in arms, money, or anything else unless compelled to use them.
Why Russia has decided to fight this "existential" war with a very non-existential, lackadaisical pace is an enduring mystery that the "muh war of attrition" types need to stop trying to explain away.
Posted by: Gnome Sane | Nov 22 2024 17:06 utc | 26
We have this warm decade of cold war.
Temperatures might reach defcon2 by 2033 and then either calm down or go full war.
Posted by: Newbie | Nov 22 2024 17:07 utc | 27
The ISW isn't even readable. The maps are too zoomed out. The paragraphs (and sentences) are too long. And the typography sucks.
And the bullet points are a mess (too often mostly repeating strategic points from the first couple paras). Should be organized at least into a "map" and "non-map" sections.
I'm not even complaining about bias. Good propaganda should at least be readable!
Hmm...maybe I should get a contract to rewrite their daily bulletins. I wouldn't do any grunt research work. Just mercilessly edit the format. Oh...and send the interns out to make better maps. And fetch me some good lunches from the little ethnic places on Capital Hill.
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 22 2024 17:12 utc | 28
Something has been bothering me for a longtime. The US basically doesn't have air defense for its own people. I remember when the HAARP program started a long time ago. It was claimed that the US was using the program to stop incoming ICBMs by heating up the ionosphere. That supposedly would cause the ICBMs to burn up upon reentry. The space shuttle Columbia burned up upon reentry about Feb. 1, 2003. The day before that, I read that the HAARP system was activated. Saw nothing about this anywhere. Was it lack of coordination between the two agencies involved? Intentional? Or just BS? I have no idea. For the record, I read that the HAARP system was activated before I knew the shuttle was coming back. I don't even know if heating up the ionosphere is practical. There is also a HAARP type program located in Tromso, Norway. Comments?
Posted by: Leroy | Nov 22 2024 17:13 utc | 29
Ukraine Weekly Update, 22nd November 2024: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukrainian-weekly-update
Posted by: The Busker | Nov 22 2024 17:15 utc | 30
Carry-over from the last Ukraine thread, which hit 500+ replies so I doubt anyone is going to read it there.
Skruffy tales corroborates a big concession of territory by the UAF in Kursk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BjaDsV8SUQ&t=326s
It's coming from ISW so hardly pro-Russian wishful thinking.
I think what this shows is that the pants-shitter in chief did it again. He shat his own pants in a massive way. The ostensible rationale for allowing "deep strikes" with ATCAMS in to Kursk was to stop the Russians from regaining territory.
Objectively, that failed in a spectacular fashion. Maybe one could argue this would happen regardless of any strikes, as I kind of did (air power never wins any war with a real opponent.)
But in any event, this is just another huge failure by Biden and Starmer. Someone is going to have to diaper both of these senile cranks.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 17:17 utc | 31
As I opined yesterday to which PavewayIV seconded, the Oreshnik is made to eliminate, exterminate airbases like Ramstein or any other within the NATO/Zionist realm. Imagine Iran having such a weapon. IMO, Western idiots need to feel it on their skin and thus awaken to reality of being under the gun--literally. Do they really want further proof of Oreshnik's capabilities?
Well, since Zelinsky wants NATO to enter the war so badly, I'll wager he'll try to get his NATO buddies to launch another attack. So, what will Blinken/Sullivan/Austin decide as neither Biden or Harris clearly no longer have any authority?
Bemildred@1700
Exactly. Russia's "surprise package" on Dniepropetrovsk was the undeniable call. Further incursions into Russia proper by missiles "donated" by and also under full operational control of certain Western "powers" will axiomatically induce a rapid response by the R.U. upon the particular nation which calls and induces the shot/s. Whether Medvedev, Lavrov, or Putin himself...the leaders of Russia are NOT bluffing.
So we arrive at three possible perps: Number three and least probable is Macaroni's France. Macron is a wholly owned "associate" of his recent private employer, the Rottenchild Crime Clan iteration in Paris. That private bank would on getting whipped by a wand of "Hazel" would be dutifully obliterated...a huge message to the ruling financier elite.
Under the "administration" of the handlers of the $enile One; the occupied puppet regime in the Di$trict of Corruption might get a surprise package targeting their British donated island of Diego Garcia, right at the core of the Indian Ocean and a mechanism which not only controls a huge proportion of maritime traffic, but also threat to Iran and portions of southern Russia. Such a strike would not directly affect the "Homeland"...thus the media crocodile tears would not yet be of a volcanic nature.
Ultimately, we consider City of London. For those unaware of the facts, "The City" is a little known independent entity, located within Metropolitan London, but is not only totally a self-controlled entity, but also dominates political and economic reality within the Sceptred Isle. The City is dominant in banking; insurance (particularly maritime); mining and mineral production and distribution (think Rio Tinto Metals); International's media control (Reuters is the key) and ultimately the primary control matrix for all matters financial...including the "national" banks of the Five Eyes; the International Monetary Fund; the World Bank and most significantly the Rottenchild dominated Bank of International Settlements...run from the City but physically located in Switzerland.
Thus, should a strike be made within Russia proper by a Storm Shadow missile; a countervail targeting that particular private bank in City of London would demolish the current financial matrix...worldwide.
If it is true that the R.U. is NOT a "partner" in the game; a strike on "The City" would be ultimate proof that the Russians are NOT bluffing.
Posted by: aristodemos | Nov 22 2024 17:26 utc | 33
Western Countries will have to draw straws or play “Eeny meeny miny mo” to decide who loses an airbase to prove that Putin was not bluffing.
There might be a shortage of volunteers.
Posted by: CitizenSmith | Nov 22 2024 17:28 utc | 34
Now that's what you call a first strike weapon! Like bolts of lightning shooting from the sky. Seems Polish missile bases with nukes will be first. Followed by whoever else would like to do something stupid. Mach 12....sick ha ha!.
Posted by: So | Nov 22 2024 17:28 utc | 35
The West is betting without nukes, Russia is unlikely to win a war against NATO.
I actually spit out my coffee. The West ..at least saner heads with actual knowledge..know NATO would lose a conventional conflict.. I'm not going to go into details but beyond the qualitative superiority of Russian weapons, it's compact locality of assets, the unity of its society ..the logistics tail is so short as to be non existent with the West having extended, fragile spaghetti chains..and of course as cherry on top, the West has virtually no industrial capacity.
More importantly any such conflict will always end with the loser resorting to nuclear weapons. This has been gamed to fucking death.
And now the same fools who didn't have the foresight to realize outsourcing their industry to fuck over the worker and squeeze more money would leave them in a pickle are assuring themselves in typical slobbering fashion 'Russia won't, 'Russia doesn't', bla bla fucking bla.
You know fuck all about Russia, idiots. PAY your fucking debts. Your crack at world domination has ended. Or we can all die to your hubris.
Maybe that's the answer to the Fermi paradox. Hubris.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Nov 22 2024 17:28 utc | 36
Putin's warning is as clear as day......any more Storm Shadow/Schleaper or Neptune or ATACM missile strikes on RF territory will be met with new Hazel strikes on key Ukrainian targets....will Blinken-sky, Sullivan, Austin Raytheon listen to the warnings (Joe is completely out of it, in stage three dementia (not stage four because he can still walk and speak), this week he wandered off in the Amazon - a sad and dangerous trainwreck of a leader, a General Von Hindenburg or General Petain type figure now)
It would not surprise me in the least if RF was to issue an evac order for Kiev ahead of the next Hazel strike (although I would rather see them strike a main electric transmission EU switch-yard station on the Romanian border)........
It may be time for a decapitation strike in Kieve though.......so many options............stay tuned sports fans.........
Posted by: Tobias Cole | Nov 22 2024 17:29 utc | 37
NATO got the same lesson deluded 'local superpower' Shitrael got from Iran.
The ex-bullies should learn their place.
Posted by: Ed Bernays | Nov 22 2024 17:33 utc | 38
That Metinvest coke plant near Pokrovsk is a tempting target. Give the workers 6 hours to get out of there, reduce it to rubble.
More GDP reduction ... heading towards Somalia-level GDP for Project Ukraine.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 17:33 utc | 39
But there is twist to the MIRV's released. It appears the 6 initial MIRV's also MIRV'd again. There are reports of 36 hits to the target, no clarity on if any of those extra Mirv's were just decoys or explosives warheads. I doubt the .GOV will ever tell the truth about it.
The one hope I have on this road to WW3 is that Putin nukes DC and NATO capitals and the bunkers for these bastards first.
Posted by: SoCoRuss | Nov 22 2024 17:33 utc | 40
The sooner NATO is dismantled the better.
Another great post b.
Posted by: annie | Nov 22 2024 17:34 utc | 41
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 22 2024 17:18 utc | 32
As I see it is the US has already pivoted to China as that is where Austin is at the moment On the islands in the pacific. Fiji I think.
Ukraine has been passed to the EU and NATO to deal with it. Thus the permission to use long range missiles that Europe wanted.
MAGA are desperate to pivot towards China.
Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Nov 22 2024 17:36 utc | 42
@annie | Nov 22 2024 17:34 utc | 41
The sooner NATO is dismantled the better.Seconded. But let me add that dismantling NATO is insufficient if the "EU" is allowed to exist. It has become the militaristic authoritarian tool of oppression I expected in 1994 when I voted NO to Norwegian membership.Another great post b.
Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 22 2024 17:40 utc | 43
Very interesting question is how wide the MIRVs can be spread...If pretty widely, one missile could pretty much finish off a large target area...
Posted by: Pyrrhus | Nov 22 2024 17:40 utc | 44
US missile defense complex in Poland appears to be likely target.
https://tass.com/politics/1875589
Posted by: Thurl | Nov 22 2024 17:41 utc | 45
Alex Christorofou seemed unusually glum in his latest video. He doesn't seem to think we make it until January 21 without some new major escalation by the pants-shitter.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 17:43 utc | 46
The other day I was mentioning flux compressors for EMP
Even with a limited radius, 36 might black out (and fry servers) in the city of London (and wherever the load balancing server is)
And answering with nukes for zero casualties would be frowned upon.
Posted by: Newbie | Nov 22 2024 17:46 utc | 47
Western mainstream media is busily pretending that the Oreshnik it totally not a game changer, and that the war must go on to the last Ukrainian. Meanwhile, the Ukrainians are still feeding what's left of their best troops into the Kursk cauldron, even as they continue to lose more ground in southern Donetsk. Ukraine itself is facing a severe manpower shortage, is on the verge of being completely de-electrified, and is on the verge of being completely evicted from the aforementioned Kursk cauldron.
There is no good news anywhere to be seen for Ukraine.
Russia has won the war, but the West is still dreaming away in La-La Land.
Posted by: Monos | Nov 22 2024 17:51 utc | 48
When Putin speaks, I hear someone who defends the interests of his country.
Yet when listening to current EU and NATO leadership one despairs.
The EU head claims Russia is scavenging washing machines for electronic chips.
The NATO head claims North Korean soldiers are fighting in Kursk. If North Korea was not involved before, it will be after that claim.
The US Foreign Secretary claims Iran supplies Russia with drones. Yet no drone shipment from Iran to Russia is stopped, perhaps because there are none.
The United States warns China to stop shipment of dual-use components that may be used in the Ukraine war. So China stops battery shipments to Skydio - a US company that makes drones for Ukraine.
It is as if every day someone in Washington wakes up, and asks hirself: how do I antagonize allies, and unite opponents today?
Posted by: Passerby | Nov 22 2024 17:54 utc | 49
As b himself and barflies have said many times before over the past two years in the context of provision of various western weapons systems to Ukraine, wonder weapons are not going to win this war ... for Ukraine but for Russia also.
Actual real near-peer wars are won by men: infantry and artillery, advancing and taking territory and rooting the opposition out. They are not won by aerial bombardment of whatever type (airplanes, rockets, etc.).
As for game changers, the only real and true game changers are the H-bombs that Russia, China, and the US have in abundance and that guarantee each nation's ultimate security. Everything else is playing around with toys and making billions of $$$ money for yourself and your bosses ...
Posted by: Caliman | Nov 22 2024 17:56 utc | 50
The Russians have clearly indicated that nuke-ready first-strike Aegis Ashore system at Redzikowo is the next target.
"Moscow reveals new ‘priority’ strike target in Poland"
"The US missile defense base in Redzikowo increases the overall level of nuclear danger, according to Russia’s Foreign Ministry "
https://www.rt.com/russia/607974-russia-poland-base-priority-target/
It is the most proximate strategic threat. The next nearest proximate threat is the similar base in Romania.
Posted by: Arfur Mo | Nov 22 2024 17:58 utc | 51
Pac @ 24
The West is betting without nukes, Russia is unlikely to win a war against NATO. They could be right and perhaps that is why they are pushing Putin without fears.
Exactly this. If MoA forum had stickies this would be at the top.
The calculation is 50 countries, the Golden Billion, their money weapons and armies against 140 million residents of a gas station with nukes, sanction the gas station, discount the nukes because Putin is too sane to ever use them, and you have nothing left, or rather 140 million Russians standing naked in the woods and tundra ready to beg for mercy.
Epical miscalculation as has been every attack on Russia in its history, only this time Russia has 1.4 billion friends on their boarder with the world's most advanced and productive industrial economy. It doesn't need nukes to march on Brussels. Somehow that doesn't factor in to the west's calculations but it has already determined the outcome.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 22 2024 18:00 utc | 52
Posted by: Caliman | Nov 22 2024 17:56 utc | 50
Good analysis. I don't think the new Russian toy is a game-changer, but a reminder to the West that Russia can raise the stakes in response to any escalatory move short of actual nukes.
See that nice little Metinvest Coke plant that Ukraines entire metallurgical industry relies on? Would be a shame if something were to happen to it. Some oligarch might lose his entire fortune and be quite unhappy with Ye Olde Pants-shitter.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 18:00 utc | 53
re: Newbie | Nov 22 2024 17:07 utc | 27
you wrote: "Temperatures might reach defcon2 by 2033 and then either calm down or go full war."
Colonel Macgregor stated a few days ago that "Russia has put its nuclear forces on full alert."
Assuming Macgregor's sources are correct, then it is quite likely that the US has followed suit.
In other words, both the US and Russia are now at DEFCON2.
Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 22 2024 18:01 utc | 54
Broadcast earlier today:
Putin Holds Working Meeting
https://rumble.com/v5s0qpq-putin-holds-working-meeting.html
Russian president holds meeting with government officials on new weaponry.
Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 22 2024 18:04 utc | 55
I was trying to figure out what is going on with Trump and why not a word, not a statement or anything during this march towards armageddon.
On Bitchute I suddenly found THIS
*https://www.bitchute.com/video/VkCng4yE0xdF
"ALERT: Trump/Musk Working Behind The Scenes To Broker Ukraine-Russia Ceasefire! FULL SHOW 11/21/24"
It was a broadcast of infowars and Alex Jones apparently claims that he has spoken with people that said Trump and Elon Musk are in talk with Russia behind the scenes. I have not seen this elsewhere and I know amny people are totally dismissive of AJ, but he has quite some connections with different people.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*And this: https://kyivindependent.com/putin-trump-ceasefire/
Russian President Vladimir Putin claims he is open to discussing a Ukraine ceasefire with US President-elect Donald Trump but wants to keep Ukrainian land and demands Kyiv abandon its NATO ambitions, five Kremlin insiders told Reuters.
In comtrast Reuters is very MSM and so with Kiev independent.
Can anyone comment upon this? I just wanted to know if anyone else has heard ANYTHING about Trump and the current situation...
Not a word anywhere else....
Posted by: Norwegian Pawn | Nov 22 2024 18:04 utc | 56
Mark Rutte, NATO Sec-Gen is today reportedly visiting president-elect Donald Trump at Mara Lago. Would love to be a fly on the wall at that conversation...
Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 22 2024 18:07 utc | 57
Putin announces mass production plus similar development of additional short and long range missiles
Posted by: Jo | Nov 22 2024 18:07 utc | 58
Posted by: p3t3r | Nov 22 2024 16:23 utc | 12
###########
Trump is very fond of "Madman Theory".
It's funny that in four years, Trump has become like Rip Van Winkle, waking up to a world he no longer recognizes.
He's not ready to deal with Xi and Putin as equals but they will give him no other choice.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 22 2024 18:15 utc | 59
I think it's important for everyone to understand this: this is not a football game.
This is not something that overtrained, pampered puppets play for a few minutes a week so we can vent our aggression by yelling behind a screen.
Haven't they even picked up a street kid after falling off his bike, crying with scraped knees, to glorify and wish for an unbridled escalation of violence?
Those who have been on a battlefield know that even the sounds die down, but the smells remain forever, the senses remember everything, every texture and every temperature, and some are harder to escape from than others.
Do you think the "normal" settlers around Gaza left because there was too much danger?
No, they left because the stench of burning flesh, of rotting human beings, began to disrupt their normal thought processes. The same wind brings the truth if you are too close. Every war front is the same.
The planet is lucky to have some leaders who step on the brakes instead of speeding up, and that is the only good thing left, because if the war continues to escalate, those of us on the field playing that soccer game will be all of us, without exception.
I believe that slowing down the war, and keeping it in a "neutral" zone like Ukraine, leads the NATO belligerents to continue producing and wasting men and weapons without learning anything new - on the contrary, they lose legitimacy more rapidly every day - but the populations pay with their skin for every bullet that is produced, with their time, with their well-being.
Europe and the United States come from such an accentuated artificial state of comfort that it is difficult for them to understand what they are losing, but they are losing it every day, and it is no longer possible to hold the curtain with the pins of the mass media, reality dawns.
The missile falls in the night, it lights up like a shooting star. It could be like the sun. But what would be left behind? What comes after the first nuclear bomb?
We are human beings, we are the same species! How can people celebrate and ask for the whole world to explode as soon as possible?
There are three fundamental options in every fight: unconditional surrender (early or forced - Europe-United States style), deterrence and containment (some might call it stagnation because it does not broaden the perspective - it is what Putin is trying not to derail), total escalation to extermination (what Israel does while the United States keeps giving it candy - it has no sense or happy ending, it never turns out as expected)
The opportunity of this war is that it will be the last one because then the weapons and systems of oppression will be dismantled, but it can also be the last one because there is nothing left standing, nothing to throw away, no one left to kill...
What can we aim for, rationally? What is the way????
One thing is clear, Ukraine is not going to survive this conflict. And perhaps it is good.
Posted by: Steve | Nov 22 2024 18:21 utc | 61
Ukraine Weekly Update, 22nd November 2024: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukrainian-weekly-updatePosted by: The Busker | Nov 22 2024 17:15 utc | 30
Always useful, Doc. This barfly greatly appreciates your efforts.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Nov 22 2024 18:21 utc | 62
Putin announces mass production plus similar development of additional short and long range missiles
Posted by: Jo | Nov 22 2024 18:07 utc | 58
Was about to link to the serial production , if history is a good teacher I’d risk saying there were a dozen prototypes and maybe 10 ready to be used right now?
https://tass.com/politics/1876563
Posted by: Newbie | Nov 22 2024 18:22 utc | 63
Great post by b. Thank you.
Lulled in by neoconservative talk of western supremacy and presumed Russian inabilities the Europeans were eager to connect their fate to a proxy war against Russia. Having been defeated in the fight for the commodities of the Donbas region they have pushed for extending the reach of their weapons into Russia.
Yes indeed! The mess created by Gorbachev/Yeltsin years and the decade of aftermath has instilled a deep sense of contempt among Europeans, old and new, against Russia/Russian. They did not heed the words of Lee Kwong Yew of Singapore who advised not to look down upon Russia.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 22 2024 18:22 utc | 64
Posted by: ChatNPC | Nov 22 2024 18:21 utc | 62
Nice to be appreciated. I'm having a single malt while perusing the bar. Cheers.
Posted by: The Busker | Nov 22 2024 18:27 utc | 65
An excellent overview.
ps: How the MIRV Delivery Works
https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1859549697947455701
See vid.
Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 22 2024 18:30 utc | 66
In other words, both the US and Russia are now at DEFCON2.
Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 22 2024 18:01 utc | 54
Doubtful, strong 3 but not 2
Two steps from war, DEFCON 3 is generally seen as a standby level of alert, and it is the highest level of alert during peacetime.
That is the big thing, RF has more or less accepted it is at war with nato.
The us is not, trying hard to set one in Europe but none of their concern ,)
Posted by: Newbie | Nov 22 2024 18:32 utc | 67
If France, as the next in line now sends its scalp into Russia and Russia retaliates on a location in France, will article 5 then be activated? Has Nato been explicit on requesting these launches into Russia? If not then it is solely the responsibility of in this case France that need to bear the consequences of its aggression.
Posted by: hubert | Nov 22 2024 18:38 utc | 68
Posted by: hubert | Nov 22 2024 18:38 utc | 68
Article 5 is not so automatic as many thinks.
Actual support to Ukraine is actually article 5 while Ukraine is not in Nato.
RF attacking France may eventually trigger the same level of assistance.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 22 2024 18:42 utc | 69
Any guess how long it will take Iran, North Korea, China and the Houthi to develop their own variants of those rockets, if NATO keeps escalating?
Posted by: Marvin | Nov 22 2024 18:44 utc | 70
Visions
Is the war ending? Or beginning?
Is it another missile or a shooting star?
So many people dream of rest, however...
They could live a thousand years, jumping into those ships,
With the knife between their teeth, worn out from clenching.
Really? Do they think it's just another game?
That they can fill their glasses by looking at a screen?
They tricked us with an unreal world, in packages
But nothing comes by the kilo in the universal roulette wheel
Proud, like children in disguise, the leaders
They show their teeth for the TV cameras.
There is no less hunger for that, nor less evil...
There is no less blood on the floor, nor less ashes
There is no less rubble, nor less mud
Burying pieces of children and dolls alike.
Norwegian Pawn @ 56
It was a broadcast of infowars and Alex Jones apparently claims that he has spoken with people that said Trump and Elon Musk are in talk with Russia behind the scenes.
Seems more comic book nonsense, once you enter ClownWorld even the restrooms are a hall of mirrors. You can't have two commanders in chief at the same time, the Pentagon would never allow it, it's up to Trump to respect protocol and common sense if he doesn't want to come into office with even more rancor than he's already got. Putin shouldn't touch it, how does he know the USA isn't playing good cop bad cop?
Granted with nuke war at risk protocols can go out the window, that's what happened with the Cuban missile crisis and Kennedy going through back channels to save the world, but Trump's no Kennedy, for all his bluster Trump's an accommodator and no iconoclast, Musk is just the happy face of the CIA merger of state and corporate power. Are there CIA good guys and bad guys? Are there any in ClownWorld 2024?
Beats me, maybe Musk will meet Abramovich for coffee in Budapest and save the world. If we survive we'll read about it in 30ys when through the FOIA the files get released.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 22 2024 18:50 utc | 72
james @7
Point being that the Yuzhmash attack could have been a complete surprise, in that nothing was seen coming.Wasn't a surprise, if only b/c Russia informed the US 30 minutes in advance via their nuclear risk reduction channels. Given that Russia has on many previous occasions launched nuclear-capable ballistic and cruise missiles at Ukraine, my hypothesis is the notification was sent so the US could study the missile's performance.
Posted by: CalDre | Nov 22 2024 18:50 utc | 73
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Nov 22 2024 16:23 utc | 10
We just witnessed the total eclipse of western military technology.
<=maybe but it was not noticed at the White House. or in Kiev.. or the EU capitals..
Posted by: aristodemos | Nov 22 2024 17:26 utc | 33
Further incursions into Russia proper by donated missiles ..will axiomatic-ally induce a rapid response ..countervail target..
<=those in operational control of western donated missiles love Russia's new response, Now they can expect Russia to Respond.. the Netanyohu example in Gaza is a case in point. You will see own-everything, control-everything and everybody ideology dive the war into the heart of Russia. Its EZ owns the world or it goes into hibernation until the next time.
Posted by: So | Nov 22 2024 17:28 utc | 35
Polish missile bases with nukes will be first.
<=if Russia waits to be attacked Russia will be defeated.
Posted by: Tobias Cole | Nov 22 2024 17:29 utc | 37
Putin's warning <=ha ha ha ha! .. EZ does not care warning or no, its own the world, rule the world or go into hiding until next time.
Posted by: Ed Bernays | Nov 22 2024 17:33 utc | 38
NATO got the same lesson deluded 'local superpower' Shitrael got from Iran.
<=Shitrael took the message as invitation for more.
Putin is going to play around and lose this war. Gasprom banks were sanctioned today.. meaning the European states buying oil and gas from Russia can no longer use $USD to buy with.
Posted by: SoCoRuss | Nov 22 2024 17:33 utc | 40
The one hope I have on this road to WW3 is that Putin nukes DC and NATO capitals and the bunkers for these bastards first. <- if i were Russia I would avoid military installations and political offices I would go for the total destruction of the private industries that support this war and make sure I got the personnel that run the industries.. hitting military assets does not do much good they just make more.
Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Nov 22 2024 17:36 utc | 42
Ukraine has been passed to the EU and NATO to deal with it. Thus the permission to use long range missiles that Europe wanted. MAGA are desperate to pivot towards China.
<= permission just assured the destruction of the important physical assets in Europe it is the Europeans who will be the victim from here on.
What a deal Russia has been busied out so it cannot help China, and Europe has been set up not only for bankruptcy but also for demolition by Russia. The EZ are in control.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 17:43 utc | 46
Alex Christorofou seemed unusually glum in his latest video. He doesn't seem to think we make it until January 21 without some new major escalation by the pants-shitter.
<= I think he is right.. everything has to happen before Trump takes charge so Trump does not get the blame.
Posted by: Caliman | Nov 22 2024 17:56 utc | 50
wonder weapons are not going to win this war ...
<= when dealing with EZ nothing wins but total defeat.. its a cancer that permeates those who lead.. but EZ attracts the greedy to leadership.. because leaders have the power to make things happen.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 22 2024 18:00 utc | 52
Russia is unlikely to win a war against NATO. <=Amen...
Posted by: Norwegian Pawn | Nov 22 2024 18:04 utc | 56
Trump and Elon Musk are in talk with Russia behind the scenes.
<=how many times have we heard Russia cannot be allowed to win?
Posted by: snake | Nov 22 2024 18:52 utc | 74
A question I have for the Bidens, Blinkens, Starmers, Grahams etc:
The are pushing, with all their might, for a nuclear war. Where do they think they’ll live and for how long?
Posted by: Vragtes | Nov 22 2024 18:55 utc | 76
Santi @ 71
Very nice. I'm just a dog on the internet but I have a sense for poetry.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 22 2024 18:59 utc | 77
Posted by: snake | Nov 22 2024 18:52 utc | 74
Seems that Ukraine will take the risk of further ATACMS or storm shadow follies.
That will frustrate the neocons as they seek a game changer of a casus belli like a base in Poland getting the Kuzhmash treatment.
So we have to expect something even more bold from Ye Olde pants-shitter.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 19:09 utc | 78
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | November 22, 2024 18:59 UTC | 77
Hahahahahahahahahaha! :-) :-)
That's exactly what I'm talking about: the ease with which one can unleash a pseudo aggression without putting a single hair on the line, the comfort of the average human being to live exclusively outside of reality... the permanent possibility of choosing from millions of contradictory data, those that best adapt to our untouchable personal importance... Thanks for your example.
I'm not here to fight, I'm going back to my house...
Santi @ 79
Not sure what you're saying, but I was giving you a compliment.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 22 2024 19:24 utc | 80
But what IS the game-changer here?
So far NATO had no defense against missiles.
So I see only one new piece on the board namely the capacity to destroy hardened targets with non-nuclear means.
Countervalue targets are not the prime target for conventional warheads.
If it comes to all out nuclear war the nature of the desaster has not changed.
It still would be caused via fission.
Or am missing something here?
Posted by: AG | Nov 22 2024 19:27 utc | 81
re: Newbie | Nov 22 2024 18:32 utc | 67
Russia has an analogous categorization of alert status to DEFCON: "постоянная"/"повышенная"/"военная опасность"/" полная". or "constant"/"increased"/"military danger"/"complete"
Colonel Macgregor stated that he had two sources "Telling me that Russian Nuclear Rocket Forces are on full alert."
I would translate that to the equivalent of DEFCON 2.
Regardless, we clearly are in a circumstance where both the US and Russia have increased the alert levels.
Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 22 2024 19:30 utc | 82
Will Trump abandon Biden's insane " plans to deploy US long-range precision missile systems in Germany in 2026."
That could be part of Ukraine peace plan.
Posted by: bill wolfe | Nov 22 2024 19:31 utc | 83
LightYearsFromHome.
I think the situation is rapidly moving wayyyy beyond the protocol of two commanders or not. Also, one could argue that an Impulsive, simplistic and boorish Trump at it's worst is more capable of handling the current situation than someone with serious dementia. Then it is fine to argue that Biden is just a figurehead and all decisions are taken for him, but at this time in history, there is no substitute for leadership at highest level.
My take at this time is that Trump is more likely to ignore the current situation because he is more concerned of setting up his domestic agenda AND fight off the deep state. Also, irespectively of what him and others are doing, I do not think they have much to offer Putin.
Finally after the last days of escalation dance, Russia has definitely strengthened it's military leverage.
If Kremlin sent a Hazel to the heart of City of London, NAZO would not do anything beyond probably "declaring war". It would be more inertia than the Phony war of 39/40...
Posted by: Norwegian Pawn | Nov 22 2024 19:31 utc | 84
James @ 5:
I am sure Sweden experienced buyer remorse after the Russian missile strike on the military academy in Poltava back in early September. Barflies may recall that the Swedish Foreign Minister resigned his position and left politics altogether after the attack, and SAAB share prices crashed about the same time.
The possible links of theses crises to the Poltava attack are still being ignored in the MSM. If you are interested, but are finding ploughing through past MoA comments forums and X / Twitter posts too time-consuming, there have been online murmurings that SAAB lost an entire senior management team connected to the development of an aircraft-borne early warning missile defence radar system in the Poltava missile attack. The SAAB trip to Poltava had been organised and supported by the Swedish Foreign and Defence Ministers. After the missile attack, both ministers were summoned by the Swedish king for a meeting at his palace. It was after the meeting that the Foreign Minister (Tobias Bilstrom?) resigned.
Apparently after Sweden joined NATO, the Wallenberg family (wealthiest family in the country) invested large amounts of money in SAAB shares. After the Poltava attack, the Wallenbergs decided to get out.
As we come towards December and the shortest day of the year is approaching in Sweden, the Swedes may soon find comfort from all their recent traumas (including seeing Julian Assange go free and losing their chance at playing loyal Washington lapdog) in swilling warm glogg during the Christmas season.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 22 2024 19:34 utc | 85
Putin has repeatedly said Russia will not accept a ceasefire or anything short of a formal end of hostilities with a signed treaty. So i dont believe there will be any sort of ceasefire in the near future, fighting will continue even during the negotiations (just like during the US war on Vietnam).
On a unrelated note I see that John Herbst, the head of the Atlantic Council's Eurasian Center, has given a new interview and he was completely dismissive of Russian threats about the use of new missiles against NATO targets. parsing his words carefully, Herbst was adamant that Russia would never use nukes against NATO countries, but I think he is either ignoring the possibility that Russia might use conventional missiles against NATO countries or deliberately concealing this possibility. Herbst is the former US ambassador to the Ukraine and he has always been pushing for full military engagement of NATO into the Ukraine (i.e. NATO troops into the Ukraine to man the boarder with Belarus to free up more Ukrainian troops for the front line). Herbst is now suggesting that the new Trump administration will send Tomahawks to the Ukraine in the new year. What Herbst demands, the US usually ends up doing within 10-12 months, so we should be on the lookout for NATO troops and Tomahawks entering the Ukraine in another 8 months or so.
Posted by: Kadath | Nov 22 2024 19:41 utc | 86
The tests will continue, especially since we have enough of these weapons for the duration of this phase,” he added, confirming that the Oreshnik is set to enter serial production.While the Oreshnik missile is not classified as a “strategic” weapon or a means of mass destruction, Putin acknowledged that its precision and destructive power make it a valuable asset. As such, the missile will be included in Russia's Strategic Missile Forces.
Translation: "We are putting this missile under command of Russia's Strategic Missile Forces, but this does not imply we acknowledge this is a strategic weapon." Note the precise phrasing, crossing all t's and dotting all i's. Also, calling this a test allows the final specifications to differ from the initial product.
Posted by: Passerby | Nov 22 2024 19:43 utc | 87
@ SacredGeometry | Nov 22 2024 19:34 utc | 86
aggression, rather than cooperation, often dominates the landscape
That's where the money is, and the subjugation of the citizens as well.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 22 2024 19:44 utc | 88
From what I've seen in the Western media, the US and its' lackies still don't believe the Russians will do anything. I think the US will probably have the UK or France launch more attacks in Russia in the next week or so. At that point I think Russia will publicly attack a NATO member (a non-nuclear attack, maybe a missile strike on a arms depot in Poland or Romania). Has any one seen anything that suggests the US was taken aback by Russia's latest attack?
Posted by: Kadath | Nov 22 2024 16:42 utc | 16
But there's no reason to hit a NATO target, like Poland or Romania, and risk retaliation.
Better to keep responding by pounding Ukrainian targets and escalating that way.
Kyiv itself might be an eventual target, of course, but targetting civilians will turn this into an actual war instead of a SMO.
As for the US being "taken aback by Russia's latest attack"...
1. The US was given 30 minutes warning of the launch.
2. The US likely has a number of missile types itself that are not completely known about.
Whether they choose to use them or make them available to Ukraine is anybody's guess. They might prefer to keep them undisclosed at this hopeless stage of the game.
Posted by: Liolia Paluzas | Nov 22 2024 19:45 utc | 89
Re Passerby | Nov 22 2024 17:54 utc | 49.
It would be difficult to stop shipments between Iran and Russia, as both nations have ports on the landlocked Caspian Sea. The other 3 nations with a Caspian coastline, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, are unlikely to intervene.
Posted by: Coldish | Nov 22 2024 19:46 utc | 90
@ 60 Santi
There are many ways to describe war and conflict, and for the purpose of clarity of resolution I choose territorial definitions as the main factor.
That is to say, if a large concrete room with a portapoti in one corner was chosen, and fitted out with bunks, and if every national leader as well as ethnic representatives were ushered in there and the large door was swung closed and bolted, and meagre rations of food were introduced via a form of letter box opening, and if all inside knew that the door would not be opened until there was full agreement on every single border and ethnic dispute of, that is to say the ethnia would obtain their own borders or sub borders also, then I think after a few weeks most of the problems of major conflict in the world would be solved.
The rules would be:
That a nation could arm itself no more than needed to maintain public order.
That tresspass across border could be met by use of force.
That there was an obligation on all nations to defend the borders of any one nation, to repel any invasion.
That transparency of national arms stockpile would be granted by all nations.
The running of any nation would not be subject to other outside intervention. If a nation turned to civil war, so be it, but the neighbouring nations would be obliged to shelter all asking for refuge at the border, indefinitely and at the cost of all nations. Those refugees would have a right to return, and so the onus of all nations would be to isolate the disturbed nation until it had agreed to a reasonable method of allowing that return.
Until that was all resolved, the door would stay locked. A note would be pushed under the door eventually and it would simply say "A full resolution has been reached" , and all the leaders could then go off and feast for the rest of their rule as far as anyone else would care.
Posted by: Ornot | Nov 22 2024 19:49 utc | 91
The US, the DS, the Straussians, the Khazars or whomever is behind this got Russian missiles to destroy Soviet plants: that's some huge success!
Slavs killing slavs: how big is that? Huh?
why would they ever stop?
Posted by: Greg Galloway
The US, the DS, the Straussians, the Khazars or whomever was really behind the second world war got Nazi bombs to destroy Soviet plants: that's some huge success!
European Christians killing European Christians:
how big is that? Huh?
why would they ever stop?
They didn't till some 30 million were dead.
Posted by: Straus | Nov 22 2024 8:28
Yeah. The second world war = the Jewish genocide of Europeans.
Posted by: Coldfish | Nov 22 2024 19:49 utc | 92
There seem to be 2 film versions of the Russian hypersonic strike on Ukraine, on the TV news in Oz.
Version 1 the sky is clear and there is unlimited visibility. It looks like footage from Iran's recent hypersonic attack on Jewrael.
Version 2 the sky is overcast and the air is slightly foggy. Incoming missiles light up a patch of cloud and then the tip of an illuminated cone of fog zaps the ground. It looks very eerie.
...
Fwiw, I think Putin is on a winning streak with this missile. It doesn't matter what the jewed-up West tries next, a missile which can't be intercepted is ALWAYS going to destroy its target.
The Westies are going to have to unlearn their Jew$lave habit of believing their own bullshit.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 22 2024 19:54 utc | 93
Is it possible that USA is now going to arm Ukraine with Tomahawk cruise missiles? That is something Zalensky asked for.
Posted by: Salmon | Nov 22 2024 19:56 utc | 94
Arfur Mo | Nov 22 2024 17:58 utc | 51
*** It is the most proximate strategic threat. The next nearest proximate threat is the similar base in Romania.***
Putin ought to stop trying to appease NATO and the globalist Oligarchy -- a moderately firm-line President would make it very clear that any further aggression from the USA and its puppets guarantees the west of California is destined for the bottom of the Pacific, while at the same time Yellowstone becomes the base of an exceedingly big explosion.
Posted by: Cynic | Nov 22 2024 20:00 utc | 95
In the West, they have learned nothing.
The site of the Belgian television reacts as usual; Putin has threatened so much with everything. It is yet another threat. Nothing will happen.
Posted by: Leon Pastis | Nov 22 2024 20:00 utc | 96
Bah it's all blabble. Putin has only one Hazel and he's playing bluff poker.
Time for the West to launch their First Strike to ensure the survival and domination of the White Civilisational Garden over the lawless jungle beyond.
Posted by: Surferket | Nov 22 2024 20:00 utc | 97
Does anyone else find it odd that 36-48 hours later we have no pictures of the damage at the former Kuzhmash plant in Dnipr region?
I guess it is possible that the damage is so bad and the GUR succeeded in suppressing any photo evidence.
But it does seem odd. Satellite pics should be available soon.
No body count either. Again, maybe the Zelensky regime really tightened up the info space. But a big body count might be useful to beg for more money.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Nov 22 2024 20:02 utc | 98
I would say that Russia skipped a few rungs of the ladder and now it's check-mate.
This is what escalation dominance is referring to.
It not that US wont have hypersonics in a year or two, but where are they going to go with that?
Posted by: jared | Nov 22 2024 20:04 utc | 99
Putin needs to make a decisive blow right now.
I say Putin should strike whilst the iron is hot - as the saying goes - the West cannot be trusted, as soon as the West has these weapons they will attack - imagine if Russia didn't have them right now, and the West did - do you think for one second they wouldn't use them?
Russian President Vladimir Putin has confirmed that Russia has a stockpile of the new Oreshnik medium-range missiles, following its successful combat test on Thusday.
“As you know, no one in the world has such a weapon yet,” Putin said. “Other countries are working on similar developments, but they will not have this system for at least another year or two. And we already have it today. This is an important advantage.”
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Nov 22 2024 20:05 utc | 100
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Putin had to, and MUST, react...everyone in this room is forgetting one thing...the hardliners who surround him and the soldiers who are sacrificing themselves for Russia.
These soldiers are also putting pressure on him, many of them don't understand WHY DIE when there are weapons systems that would prevent it...there was no such situation in World War II...they fought with EVERYTHING they had, or didn't have.
Putin is under pressure...not from the West, NO, from within his own house!
Posted by: ossii | Nov 22 2024 15:54 utc | 1