NY Times Announces Ukraine Narrative Change
Below are a number of New York Times headlines which represent the propaganda narrative about Ukraine as it has changed over time.
'Ukraine is winning' was the direction of stories issued from April 2022 up to August 2023.
- Can Ukraine Keep Winning? - Apr 20, 2022
As a new phase of the war begins, we look at Russia’s advantages — and Ukraine’s.
- For Ukraine, So Much Unexpected Success, and Yet So Far to Go - Nov 22, 2022
Ukraine is on the offensive along most of the 600-mile front line, and the Russians are in a defensive crouch. But about one-fifth of Ukrainian territory is still occupied by Russia.
- Ukraine Makes ‘Tactically Significant’ Progress in Its Counteroffensive - Aug 12, 2023
Troops advanced several miles along two main lines of attack in Kyiv’s drive to reach the southern coast and sever Russian supply lines, while explosions echoed at the vital Kerch Strait Bridge.
When it was finally acknowledged that the Ukrainian 'counteroffensive' had failed the narrative moved towards 'it's a stalemate' which was used to describe the situation up to the fall of 2024.
- Who’s Gaining Ground in Ukraine? This Year, No One. - Sep 8, 2023
Although both sides have launched ambitious offensives, the front line has barely shifted. After 18 months of war, a breakthrough looks more difficult than ever.
- U.S. Officials Say Russia Is Unlikely to Take Much More Ukrainian Territory - Jul 9, 2024
Russian forces continue to inflict pain, but NATO leaders gathering in Washington can say that their efforts to strengthen Ukraine are working.
We are now arriving at a phase where the narrative can no longer ignore the objective reality. Ukraine is losing the war. Russia is winning.
- As Russia Advances, U.S. Fears Ukraine Has Entered a Grim Phase (archived) - Nov 1, 2024
Weapons supplies are no longer Ukraine’s main disadvantage, American military officials say.
> American military and intelligence officials have concluded that the war in Ukraine is no longer a stalemate as Russia makes steady gains, and the sense of pessimism in Kyiv and Washington is deepening.
...
The Pentagon assesses that Ukraine has enough soldiers to fight for six to 12 more months, one official said. After that, he said, it will face a steep shortage. <
Ukraine never had a chance to win a contest with Russia. The correlation of forces where never in favor of Ukraine. It had neither the men, money or industry to win the war. Nor did the West ever intended to provide those. The U.S. aim was and is to weaken Russia, not to defeat it. That would be too dangerous (think nukes).
As UWDude remarked in a recent comment (edited):
Again, at the outset, Russia vs Ukraine, a whole bunch of bullshit was spewed about how weak Russia was to build a case for Ukraine having a chance, when every casual observer could see Russia would win. Like watching a bear tangle with a doe, and people saying bears are not that powerful and a doe's kick could kill a bear if in the right place.Ukraine having a chance was just people lying to themselves, when the truth was evident from the start.
At least some of the profession propagandists are smart enough to recognize that the fairytales they write are just that and have nothing to do with reality. Other propagandists, often politicians, are falling for their own narrative. They once did believe that Ukraine was winning. They once did believe that the war was at a stalemate. They will now come to believe that Ukraine is losing the war.
Let's hope that they will derive the correct consequences from it.
(Make peace you fools!)
Posted by b on November 2, 2024 at 13:07 UTC | Permalink
next page »The maximalist goals of the Ukrainian war never made sense from a strictly American perspective. Even the most Strangelovian general would realize what a dangerous game they were playing. It does make sense from an Israeli perspective, though: to them, Russia is providing increasingly sophisticated weapons and must be stopped no matter the cost. Or else the Israeli state will stop surviving.
What gets me is that Russia was much weaker in all capacities back in 2014. Even in 2017, a war would have been less than ideal. The country survived a trade embargo from its primary partners to that point and survived. Not many countries could say that. VVP doesn't need a vast narrative of invincibility like Zelensky clearly has. Russian resilience has carried the day yet again.
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Nov 2 2024 13:24 utc | 2
The NYT is government Zionist mouthpiece.
I wouldn't make the error of believing that any of their headlines demonstrate insight or conviction.
Is this messaging to the elites across the West?
It's certainly not for the average liberal. They are still dozens of hoaxes behind these latest revelations. They still think Russia stole the 2016 election for Donald Trump.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 2 2024 13:30 utc | 3
Russian resilience
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Nov 2 2024 13:24 utc | 2
---
They practice every Winter.
Posted by: too scents | Nov 2 2024 13:31 utc | 4
(Make peace you fools!)
Posted by b on November 2, 2024 at 13:07 UTC
______
Umm, no.
As with the battle against Zionazism, so with the battle against Ukronazism: Only victory and justice will suffice.
Posted by: malenkov | Nov 2 2024 13:36 utc | 5
Much like the Allies demands in WWII that the Germans surrender unconditionally guaranteed that the slaughter would continue to the heart of Berlin, Putin’s insistence on achieving his maximalist demands ensures that the war will continue.
Posted by: Zargo | Nov 2 2024 13:41 utc | 6
@ PM | Nov 2 2024 13:15 utc | 1
"Why would people so accustomed to believe narratives draw correct conclusions?"
Excellent point. Conclusion must be preceded by some thinking, some analysis - no matter how brief. What the fools do is they chug the purple Kool-Aid without thinking.
It's as if they are supporting "their" football team. If it looks stupid and even painful, well that's a traditional part of supporting the local (professionally owned) football heroes.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 2 2024 13:51 utc | 7
The main aim of this war, and all other US wars, is for the US defense industry to sell military hardware, either to foreign governments, terrorist groups, the US government (taxpayers) or just ANYONE! The US defense industry IS the US government!
Posted by: Dave Pollard | Nov 2 2024 14:00 utc | 8
I will say some of the funniest videos I have seen involve lassoing a deer. Scrawny little doe turns into fighting feet of fury martial artist and kicks the * out of what ever is on the other end of the line.
Posted by: Trumpeter | Nov 2 2024 14:01 utc | 9
At least some of the profession propagandists are smart enough to recognize that the fairytales they write are just that and have nothing to do with reality. Other propagandists, often politicians, are falling for their own narrative. They once did believe that Ukraine was winning. They once did believe that the war was at a stalemate. They will now come to believe that Ukraine is losing the war.
The big lie for mass consumption goes something like this: Ukraine is a nation of plucky freedom fighters just trying to throw off the yoke of Russian domination, the butterfly struggling to emerge from its chrysalis. They just want to have their own democracy and big bad Russia won't let them. The US (and by extension, NATO) can't stand by and allow this horrible crime against humanity perpetrated by Russia, happen. The West will stop them with sanctions, weapons, and the sheer force of its moral superiority. Yada yada yada.
The so-called journalists first embraced and resonated this narrative before pushing the battlefield narrative of 'Ukraine winning' then 'stalemate' then 'it's not looking so good for Ukraine.' From the beginning they sold their soul to support the US war machine, and they KNEW they were lying through their teeth. Their way of coping is to tell themselves that their lies are actually the truth. Their way of coping may make them fell better in the short term, but bottom line these people are pond scum, no offense to pond scum, and hundreds of thousands of people have died horrible deaths so they can maintain their comfort.
Posted by: Mike R | Nov 2 2024 14:05 utc | 11
Indeed. The Western elites never intended or believed that Ukraine could win militarily. Apparently not that long ago, with little fanfare, the United States gave Morocco 500 armored fighting vehicles. Morocco! If the West had given Ukraine everything it had back in 2022 when Russia was on the back foot, Russia might have had a LOT of problems.
But the plan was for Ukraine to keep up a slow bleed, and it was the combination with sanctions that was supposed to do the real work. The (mostly) failure of the sanctions is I think the main surprise here.
But never say never. The Western elites are vile but they are not stupid and they have unlimited money and vast powers of propaganda and institutional reach. Suppose Putin died, and some cabal of western-aligned oligarchs took over Russia? Suppose the west finally got some excuse to intervene, and moved ground troops and nukes up to the Dnieper river and puts Ukraine into NATO and dares Putin to do something about it? Suppose the west manages to do to Georgia and Uzbekistan and Mongolia etc. what they have done to Ukraine, and widens the front against Russia? I'm not saying any of this will happen, but the Russians are not ten feet tall, and all sorts of things could happen...
Posted by: TG | Nov 2 2024 14:09 utc | 12
The NYeT article is still full of copioum
As for a particular phrase:
« Ukraine never had a chance to win a contest with Russia. The correlation of forces were never in favor of Ukraine. It had neither the men, money or industry to win the war. «
I would be tempted to say that 2 years ago Putin chose just the right amount to bet and win.
A full mobilization and social and economic impacts and there could be a non null risk of upheaval
Too little and the AFU counter attack could have been devastating.
Without errors by the RF Ukraine never stood a chance.
Posted by: Newbie | Nov 2 2024 14:32 utc | 13
A stalemate is an ending without a victory. "No longer a stalemate" is a phrase only a moron could write.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Nov 2 2024 14:34 utc | 14
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Nov 2 2024 14:34 utc | 14
Most of those Journos never played chess so they dont really know the difference
Posted by: Macpott | Nov 2 2024 14:38 utc | 15
I just looked at today's Washington Post, which continues to spout the media's dogmatic line that the presidential race is too close to call.
Meanwhile, the Daily Mail has a news story that reveals the truth. Instead of attending a Penn State versus Ohio State football game in Pennsylvania today, as he had promised, Trump will instead attend a rally in Virginia. This means that internal poll results for Pennsylvania so decisively favor Trump that his staff has decided that the time, effort, and money can be more effectively spent in Virginia.
Meanwhile, today's Washington Post has a story saying that a new poll still shows Pennsylvania too close to call.
Posted by: Lysias | Nov 2 2024 14:40 utc | 16
Apparently not that long ago, with little fanfare, the United States gave Morocco 500 armored fighting vehicles.
Posted by: TG | Nov 2 2024 14:09 utc | 12
---
⚡️According to the "Militarist" channel, since September Ukraine has received the following amount of armored vehicles from the US:-- 150 M1117
-- 300 M113
-- 211 Stryker
-- 2000 HMMWV
Posted by: too scents | Nov 2 2024 14:44 utc | 18
Posted by: They Call Me Mister | Nov 2 2024 13:24 utc | 2 "What gets me is that Russia was much weaker in all capacities back in 2014. Even in 2017, a war would have been less than ideal."
My interpretation of 2014 is apparently highly controversial: The fascist coup prompted the collapse of the Ukrainian armed forces, the outbreak of a civil war by ethnic Russians/Russian-language speakers (and anti-fascist individuals from all other nationalities in Ukraine---yes, no doubt individual fascists from all nationalities in Ukraine sided with the Maidanis.) The resistance failed in Odessa and Kharkhov, mostly succeeded in Donetsk and Lugansk. The more consistent anti-Russian propagandists like to claim a secret, invisible Russian Federation invasion seized Ukrainian territory. This is nonsense, large invasion forces take time to prepare. The forces that won in Lugansk and Donetsk were anti-fascist elements of the Ukrainian armed forces, not Russian Federation invaders. Insofar as there was some RF assistance, it appears it put considerable effort in restraining the anti-fascists, including making sure the the new People's Republics and their anti-fascist impetus did not expropriate the oligarchs. The diplomatic position of the RF was to reject those elements calling for re-unification of the majority Russian (and historically Russian) parts were rejected. And the immediate recognition of the legitimacy of the fascist coup government was an intrinsic part of the RF response.
The thing is, regarding the assertion the RF wasn't ready for war in 2014, this omits the Crimea issue. Massive RF intervention was feasible there because there was already a major RF armed forces base of operations, since those forces were already there. Plus there was overwhelming popular support for an anti-fascist stance, one that found re-unification with the RF acceptable. The thing is, this policy of re-unification with Crimea not only contradicted the policy of non-reunification indulged for the new LPR and new DPR (especially given the low popular support for the oligarchs of Novorossiya,) it also was a policy of simultaneously (!) recognizing the legitimacy of the new fascist regime in Kyiv and expecting the fascist Maidanis to accept the loss of Crimea! By the fascist (and imperialist backers too) perspective the re-unification with Crimea was war. "Seizing" Crimea was beginning the war in 2014! How then is it sensible to defend legitimating the fascists as partners in a peaceful reunification in Crimea but not in Donetsk and Lugansk? Trying to have it both ways is not a cautious policy, but a gamble, one without an end game for the RF. If starting a war in 2014 was impossible in Lugansk and Donetsk, it was impossible in Crimea, despite the logistic capabilities in place from the treaty allowing for Sebastopol etc. Suddenly remembering Kyiv was fascist in 2022 after endorsing Kyiv in 2014 was compelling only to those who recognized Maidan for what it was. I believe Putin's first principle is anti-Communisms, not anti-fascism. (There are too many fascists in the RF, by the way, though those of us living in imperialist countries have their own fascist enemies within, which should be our first issue I think.)
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 14:52 utc | 19
Washington abandons Zelensky because the Likud needs HELP !!!!!
Posted by: Exile | Nov 2 2024 14:53 utc | 20
It's as if they are supporting "their" football team. If it looks stupid and even painful, well that's a traditional part of supporting the local (professionally owned) football heroes.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 2 2024 13:51 utc | 7
Yeah, that is exactly it. I've been calling it the High School Football games theory of politics for 40 years now.
The ruling money hoarders and the political cretins that serve them will never change it, it secures a never ending river of money (political contributions) from the gullible lower classes, just like the football games do.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 2 2024 14:58 utc | 21
The NYT is unburdened by the past.Posted by: seenitbefore | Nov 2 2024 14:42 utc | 17
The same "what-can-be-unburdened-by-what-has-been" logic can be applied to the entire "Western" policymaking.
Welcome to USSA's post-liberal, post-truth, "rules-based" clown world!
It's the primary cause for Exceptionalistan being called "недоговороспособный" in Russia...
Posted by: ThirdWorldDude | Nov 2 2024 15:06 utc | 22
I remember in 2016, on the Sunday two days before Election Day, there were big Trump rallies in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Minnesota. The Minnesota one I regarded as particularly significant, as virtually nobody thought the Republicans had a chance there. But in the end Trump carried Pennsylvania, Michigan, and neighboring Wisconsin, and only lost Minnesota by a percentage point and a half.
Posted by: Lysias | Nov 2 2024 15:10 utc | 23
Many leaders tried to make some compromise with the west.
Quadafi tried, Sadam Hussein tried, Milosevic tried.
Assad and Lukashenko also tried. but stayed alive.
I hope Putin learned his lesson.
Over Dima. After watching Dima two times daily, after 2 and more years, the other analysts are somehow not good enough to me. I am somehow addicted to that type of war journalism.
Posted by: vargas | Nov 2 2024 15:16 utc | 24
This story headline is pretty much all over western media today:
Russian Foreign Minister Warns USA and Russia Are Very Close to ‘Direct Military Conflict’ Because of Biden
Posted by: frithguild | Nov 2 2024 15:20 utc | 25
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 14:52 utc | 19
Great post. Thank you.
Posted by: frithguild | Nov 2 2024 15:21 utc | 26
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 2 2024 13:30 utc | 3I think you misunderstand the purpose of b's press exegesis. Everyone at this place knows Western media lies, that is not the point. Reading the most official releases (closest to the black heart of the empire) is instructive, even if everything is a lie. It's a necessary ability in totalitarian systems, and we practised it in the East (reading Pravda, Neues Deutschland etc.) just like b is doing now.I wouldn't make the error of believing that any of their headlines demonstrate insight or conviction.
Perhaps a new phrase is introduced ("Putin's brutal war of aggression"). Or phased out again. Perhaps a familiar name is *not* listed anymore. That's the information we're talking about and b is doing an excellent job at that.
re: Russia had won in March 2022. Militarily, I agree and I don't think there was any doubt about the military powers in the Western HQs either. But I also believe that there was hope the sanctions could have a serious effect on Russia, and it looks as if the Russians themselves were surprised by how little they mattered.
OTOH, as is mentioned here time and time again: this war is *not* a loss of the US, they got a fair bit out of it. It's a catastrophe for the ordinary population of Ukraine foremost, and for citizens (not leaders!) of EUrope secondarily.
I am sure Washington would have been happier with a more positive outcome but it's good enough for them as is.
Posted by: Konami | Nov 2 2024 15:22 utc | 27
Anyone who thinks VV Putin's goals are a peace treaty after a ceasefire in place is clearly delusional......RF has sacrificed way too much in terms of manpower, prestige and honor to stop now.
And remember it was just last month that Joementia announced yet another $800 million military aid package to the Ukronazis with the quip that "we are giving them the tools to win" !! OMgosh he really is in an advanced stage of senile dementia.
Since October 1st (as I predicted many months ago), the entire central and southern fronts are in an accelerating state of active collapse. Every day now we read reports of villages and territory captured by RF forces, and Ukronazi forces retreating in some degree of disarray.
What we are eye witnessing now is a slo-mo version of France in 1940, mass desertions, lousy leadership, supply issues, no air cover.......yes history does repeat itself............
Russia's going to play hard ball from here out.....they will dictate the terms, more than likely in a luxury railroad car outside of Kieve................or Belgrad !!
Posted by: Tobias Cole | Nov 2 2024 15:31 utc | 28
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 14:52 utc | 19
Yup. Putin did not take novarussia in 2014 because he was worried that the KPFR would win majorities in the duma.
Posted by: Badjoke | Nov 2 2024 15:35 utc | 29
thanks b...
@ steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 14:52 utc | 19
you leave out minsk and perhaps russias willingness to confront nato in 2022, verses 2014... i think those issues matter..
Posted by: james | Nov 2 2024 15:35 utc | 30
Posted by: malenkov | Nov 2 2024 13:36 utc | 5
#######
Agreed. Peace now, without changes, will guarantee more war later.
This dink-and-dunk stuff the Iranians have been doing has done NOTHING to deter the Zionists. I am all for caution but used too often it begins to project weakness.
If I am Iran, I wipe a few military airfields off of the map. The Iranians supposedly can deliver a wave of 2,000 drones and missiles, and they have the capacity to do multiple waves like that. Strictly military targets even though the most fanatical Zionists are civilians.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 2 2024 15:36 utc | 31
Posted by: Trumpeter | Nov 2 2024 14:01 utc | 9
Screw the lasso. If you can get close enough to a deer or 10pt buck, you should just grab it by the neck or rack and tackle it. I've done it before twice. Wonder if that makes me a budding serial killer.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 2 2024 15:38 utc | 32
"Ukraine never had a chance to win a contest with Russia. The correlation of forces where never in favor of Ukraine."
That should be tattooed on the forehead of every editor of ever MSM source in the US, starting with NYT, the Post and WSJ.
Another quotable from UW: the US is a reality show with nukes.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Nov 2 2024 15:39 utc | 33
The depth and breadth of delusional thinking in the West is appalling but there is a bright spot within it. What we witness strongly militates against conspiracies that may or may not control the world. The people pulling the strings are vulnerable to superficial thinking and fantasy, as the many failures in Ukraine and Israel show.
Another odd positive is the acceptance of being gay - because that has removed a potential element of blackmail and flipped it into possible sympathy for those who might have been controlled.
A final positive is the rise of CGI and AI Deepfakes. Anybody caught on photos might claim fakery regardless of how real things look. There was a recent episode of "Law And Order" about a professional woman being extorted for nude photos. Now, she can claim "fake" and walk away, even if the photos were real.
Controlling politicians isn't going to be as easy as it used to be. Godspeed to that.
Posted by: Eighthman | Nov 2 2024 15:41 utc | 34
I'm famous.
Form a line for autographs, people. No pushing, please.
Posted by: UWDude | Nov 2 2024 15:43 utc | 35
They Call Me Mister | Nov 2 2024 13:24 utc | 2
It wouldn't have made any difference what year NATO started the conflict. Russia would've quickly gone into overdrive as it did. The perception that Russia was a basket case since the soviet collapse is why we have this current conflict. Had their been a ten year famine, a total economic collapse, yeah, that would've been the right time to destroy Russia. Armchair observers the world over could see this coming.
Posted by: Ogre | Nov 2 2024 15:45 utc | 36
Posted by: Konami | Nov 2 2024 15:22 utc | 27
########
I disagree with your analysis about America's outcomes. America impoverished and demilitarized its vassals, leaving it less kinetically and fiscally (economic leverage) capable than it has been in 35 years.
As to noticing Imperial propaganda, exposed to anything for long enough, we start to become more comfortable with it.
What we think about often becomes who we are.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Nov 2 2024 15:53 utc | 37
@31
U$$A and Israel need to win quickly. Iran wants attrition. Same with Russia.
Headline fireballs, and demands for ceasefire exigencies are irrelevant
Long war benefits Lockheed dividends, at the expense of everyone else
Posted by: paddy | Nov 2 2024 15:56 utc | 38
@ UWDude | Nov 2 2024 15:43 utc | 35
lol... i liked the quote from you... now you're getting real uppity, lol..
Posted by: james | Nov 2 2024 15:56 utc | 39
My Occam's Razor microscope sees that "Israel's" fingrprints are on most, if not all, of the senseless conflicts worldwide. No doubt at all about Sudan and the shithole in which one of the combatants calls itself the Rapid Response Force.
During the destruction of Syria the jews were patching up wounded ISIS/ISIL fighters and sending them back to Syria.
Imo, Jewrael is calling the shots in Ukraine which helps to explain why arms for the Genocide jews have priority over arms for Ukraine. And Ukraine was regime-changed by Vicki NewLand - a jew.
If Jewrael was Nuked tomorrow, the world be much more peaceful within 6 months...
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 2 2024 16:03 utc | 40
The mass media (with the Times being one of the chief salivators in the crocodile's mouth) is an integral part of the ruling MICIMATT class. Its job is to set the narrative and scare/motivate/pacify the public as needed for the rest of the system to get with the business of business.
The Ukraine caper was about many things, among them Russia bled, Germany's business ruined and transferred to US, Europe made more dependent on US, and, always and above everything the perennial making lots of billions of $$$ for the right people. Some of these have been achieve better than others; but the needle has moved on all, no?
"Winning" and "losing" is not the idea ... The US hasn't decisively won anything since Granada, but the Pentagon still gets above trillion budgets and everyone who is anyone gets cushy jobs and the PTB get their 20% stock returns, don't they?
Posted by: Caliman | Nov 2 2024 16:08 utc | 41
What happens with the big lie is that if the public believes it the political class gets locked into treating it as real. The ones in the political class who do it best are the know nothings who don't have an otherwise infromed opinion.
A peace treaty of any sort will only get accepted by both sides if it reflects the reality on the ground. Because we oversell our success, we can not back a treaty that has a realistic chance of being accepted by the other side. Thus we have no reverse gear in war, no way of backing out with a agreement.
Posted by: Jmaas | Nov 2 2024 16:15 utc | 42
Much like the Allies demands in WWII that the Germans surrender unconditionally guaranteed that the slaughter would continue to the heart of Berlin, Putin’s insistence on achieving his maximalist demands ensures that the war will continue.
Posted by: Zargo | Nov 2 2024 13:41 utc | 6
--------------------------------------------------------------
Which of these conditions should President Putin relinquish in return for peace?
1. No further expansion of the North Atlantic alliance’s infrastructure or the ongoing efforts to gain a military foothold of the Ukrainian territory are unacceptable for us.
2. The safety and security of the Russian speaking people of the Donbas and other Eastern Ukrainian Oblasts.
3. The denazification of Ukraine.
Posted by: Ed | Nov 2 2024 16:30 utc | 43
"Make peace?" You mean as with the Minsk Accords? Peace is just a phase of war. You're dealing with Romulans. They do not back down. They just double down. Russia is in the path of imperial conquest. "Russia must be destroyed." Putin acknowledges this. Ukraine is the US and the US is not agreement-capable.
Posted by: James A. Given | Nov 2 2024 16:30 utc | 44
Actually, the aim of Project Ukraine all along was to de-stabilize the Russian Federation.
The mighty minds in the western world brilliantly thought that Ukraine to Russia would be the same as Afghanistan to the Soviet Union. The Russian Federation would fall apart (hence associated economic sanctions, all illegal under international law) and then the Putin regime would collapse.
And another puppet like Yeltsin would take charge at it would all be another free-for-all like in the 1990's.
These same mighty minds have never seemed to understand that modern Russia is a very different bear.
Posted by: Ant. | Nov 2 2024 16:35 utc | 45
Ukraine Weekly Update, 1st November 2024: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-a32
Posted by: Dr. Rob Campbell | Nov 2 2024 16:50 utc | 47
caliman@1608
The PTB are not particularly care about stock returns. They are all shareholders and inevitably get first dibs on the returns.
Posted by: aristodemos | Nov 2 2024 16:54 utc | 48
Not sure if peace is possible at this point. Sure seems like after the election both parties are for replacing Zelensky with Zaluzhny and forcing Ukraine to drop the draft age to 18 to address the lack of troops and Russia's refusal to capitulate to a ceasefire.
Posted by: Teddy Salad | Nov 2 2024 16:56 utc | 49
Russia is wining but at the price of enormous losses, like the polish cavalry against Germans tanks at the start of WW2.
At least so they say, the NYT, WP and the others.
How long before they recognise this is also BS and that it is Ukraine which is slaughtered to the last man?
Not that the price is minimal for the Russian, but when will the MSM start looking at Ukraine losses and reckon that it cannot be sustained anymore?
Posted by: scc | Nov 2 2024 17:04 utc | 50
Lysias@1510
Here in ManySnowta, most of the Harris/Walz signs I've seen...amidst swarms of Trump/Vance signs...come in three iterations. In the immediate neighborhood there are the seniors who have voted Democrat for the last 60 years or so; known schoolteachers and other governmental employees and thirdly, overextended agribizzies who "farm" thousands of acres of mostly corn and soybeans and are highly dependent on various Dept of Ag price supports...along with numerous "crop-insurance" schemes.
OTOH: Reports I have encountered emanating from the Sitties (Mpls, St. Paul and their burbs and exurbs) a good percentage of working class men, even if degreed, will not vote for the same party as their edjumacated spouses.
Posted by: aristodemos | Nov 2 2024 17:07 utc | 51
Oh those cheeky monkeys! When they can no longer deny the glaringly obvious reality, they acquiesce.
Bring on The Cope!!!
Posted by: Chevrus | Nov 2 2024 17:07 utc | 52
"no longer a stalemate"
that's hysterical
Posted by: annie | Nov 2 2024 16:41 utc | 46
-----------------------------------------------------------
Really! Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Posted by: Ed | Nov 2 2024 17:08 utc | 53
I'm famous.
Form a line for autographs, people. No pushing, please.
Posted by: UWDude | Nov 2 2024 15:43 utc | 35
______
We’re all still in line waiting for Arch Bungle’s!
Posted by: malenkov | Nov 2 2024 17:12 utc | 54
Bemildred 21: “ Yeah, that is exactly it. I've been calling it the High School Football games theory of politics for 40 years now.”
A better analogy would be Calvin Ball, where each time Calvin gets possession of the ball he gets to change a rule of the game. Only in the Real Life version, Hobbes doesn’t get to make any new rules.
(In 6th or 7th grade I ran for homeroom president, going for the glory of getting to clean the chalk board, lead the salute to the flag, and (perhaps) be teacher’s pet. In my class of 30 equally divided between boys and girls, I lost to the girl, about 20 votes to 35. That’s Calvin Ball!)
“All’s fair in love and war.” Since politics is essentially having a mafia steal the goods and parcel out some of the loot to its patrons, a little election theft is just business as usual. Party on!
Posted by: Butte Bill | Nov 2 2024 17:16 utc | 55
this will be the narrative only until they come up with a new explanation and a new reason to keep bleeding Ukraine for capitalist gain. It reminds me of a wrestling match in the 80s. Hulk Hogan appears to be losing the entire middle of the match, then the crowd rallies and brings him back, and he finds the strength to prevail in the end. The entire war is basically a WWF/Hollywood production.
Posted by: Hank | Nov 2 2024 17:27 utc | 56
Not sure if peace is possible at this point. Sure, seems like after the election both parties are for replacing Zelensky with Zaluzhny and forcing Ukraine to drop the draft age to 18 to address the lack of troops and Russia's refusal to capitulate to a ceasefire.
Posted by: Teddy Salad | Nov 2 2024 16:56 utc | 49
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If the US/NASTO does that, they do to Ukraine what they wanted to do to Russia. I don't think that the families in Ukraine are willing to sacerfice the last of their youthful sons and daughters for a U.S. forigen policy, they don't have that many anyway.
https://www.populationpyramid.net/ukraine/
Posted by: Ed | Nov 2 2024 17:28 utc | 57
Ukraine v Russia is a bit like the fight between Frank Bruno and Mike Tyson. We all knew Mike would win, we were surprised when Frank managed to hurt Tyson and we were all really worried that Mike would then really hurt Frank after that.
Posted by: Cavery | Nov 2 2024 17:28 utc | 58
If the US/NATO does that, they will do to Ukraine what they wanted to do to Russia. I don't think that the families in Ukraine are willing to sacrifice the last of their youthful sons and daughters for a U.S. foreign policy, they don't have that many anyway.
Sorry about the misspelling @ # 57.
Posted by: Ed | Nov 2 2024 17:31 utc | 59
Zargo.
Who can Putin negotiate with? You can't negotiate with the Zelensky regime.
Posted by: Cavery | Nov 2 2024 17:35 utc | 60
(Make peace you fools!)
These Ukrainian Nazis/neoNazis used the ceasefires/peace treaties from 2014-2022 to continue killing Russians, to build up Ukrainian armed forces and to expand their criminal trafficking enterprises (women, children, human organs, drugs). They have to be defeated so an exhortation of "Surrender you fools" seems more appropriate.
Posted by: cirsium | Nov 2 2024 17:44 utc | 62
I believe Putin's first principle is anti-Communisms, not anti-fascism.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 14:52 utc | 19
What you believe has strictly no importance at all. Especially when it shows your ignorance. Which you display at length about 2014. You know nothing about the readiness of the Russian Army to engage a war against nato in 2014. Even in 2022, the Russian Army was still not ready. You know nothing about Russia. Only your prejudice.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 17:48 utc | 63
As Larry Johnson noted in the chat with Ray and the Judge yesterday, SecDef Austin first said the Russians are losing so badly they need those 10K DPRK troops to prevent further loss, then turns on his heels to say NATO needs to keep Russia from marching to the English Channel. That prompted Larry to say pick one narrative and stick to it. Austin's idiocy leads the BigLie Media pack. There seems to be a contest between him, Sullivan and Blinken as to which can show the highest grade of idiocy. Or perhaps idiocy is the wrong word--Lunacy might be more apt.
Meanwhile, Russia transits the Donbas belt of mines and their associated towns which offer the last defensive lines. Sure, the weather will eventually turn, but what would actually hinder Russia's advance--artillery and massed drone attacks--can no longer be mounted because those assets are destroyed. NATO desperation is in high gear.
Territory is what matters. West is reacting to the increasing pace of advance. It is small. But growing.
Nobody gives a hoot about the UFA lies about how many RFA they killed. Or vice versa. They are both copes. And nobody care about the artillery advantage. Or strikes. (That's the W2 Air Force fallacy of strategic bombing.) Unless that advantage/trikes translates into the ability to weaken defense enough so that offense can move.
JUN: 2 kmsq/day (.01%/day)
JUL: 6 kmsq/day (.03%/day)
AUG: 12 kmsq/day (.06%/day)
SEP: 16 kmsq/day (.08%/day)
It's actually still small (taking years to capture the Donbass alone, even with SEP pace). But the growing is the dangerous part. I don't think OCT will hit 20 kmq/day (but waiting for the data--we will see). But it will be at least at SEP pace.
And the last week has been very strong, probably 30+/day average. If that continues into NOV--and it's likely, lots of pocket to be filled in on the Vuhledar and Hirnyk fronts--then NOV will be over .1%/day. Reasonable to foresee capture of remaining fraction of Donetsk oblast by mid 2026.
Oh...and I think the West is sick of spending money. Yeah, they got a printing press. But eventually they get tired. Look at Afghanistan. Heck, even half of the neocons are really more interested in Pacific tilt than in a land war in Europe.
Of course the Euros could soldier on without the US. They have the wealth. But they won't. They never do crap without the US. Look at Suez in 56. That settled that.
I mean, what...France evacuates an embassy in Africa every couple years? And the British won a naval war against a South American country. Big whoop!
When the US gets tired of Ukraine so will the rest. May not happen overnight. Look how long Afghanistan took.
And don't underestimate Putin's willingness to settle. It's a tar baby. Russia has a huge border and lots of other interests strategically. And economically.
The hard thing is not getting the RFA to the table. It's the UFA. Need to boil the frog a little more.
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 2 2024 17:54 utc | 65
"Even in 2022, the Russian Army was still not ready. You know nothing about Russia. Only your prejudice."
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 17:48 utc | 63
Yet IMO by the fall of 2023 Russia could defeat any NATO invasion.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 2 2024 17:55 utc | 66
Posted by: Badjoke | Nov 2 2024 15:35 utc | 29 "Putin did not take novarussia in 2014 because he was worried that the KPFR would win majorities in the duma." This is plausible but 1) I'm reluctant to claim to read Putin's mind and 2) Putin's so-called dictatorship is not one that has only Putin doing things without any allies or popular support at all.
Posted by: james | Nov 2 2024 15:35 utc | 30 "you leave out minsk and perhaps russias willingness to confront nato in 2022, verses 2014... i think those issues matter.." As to Minsk, the policy of treating the fascist regime/the US as people who can be negotiated with, as some sort of democrats (small d) is consistent with the premise of Maidan's legitimacy granted gratis by Putin. And a policy that presumed Zelensky would carry out his announced program of negotiated peace also assumed Kyiv was in some sense controlled to some degree by the people, rather than being essentially fascist. The failure of Minsk demonstrated the error, no? As for the timing in 2022, 1) From what I can tell, Zelensky was ramping up to reheating the war against the Donbas, Poroshenko's program and it was imminent. 2) The RF still was not truly ready for a major campaign, hence the undermanned offensive that could not possibly achieve a quick victory. 3) The move on Kyiv may have been a feint or it may have been a sincere effort at a kind of decapitation strike, where a more or less democratic government facing defeat would have to do what was best for Ukraine, rather than what fascist Kyiv and its imperialist masters wanted. In either case, it was a consequence of the fraud of Minsk, which were bad faith "negotiations." I see no point in abusing Putin personally, but no plausibility in seeing him as either a closet Bolshevik (rather than sober Yeltsin,) or a political/military/economic genius.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 17:56 utc | 67
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 2 2024 17:49 utc | 64
Exactly! You are completely right!
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 17:57 utc | 68
@TG #12
Here are the "500 armored vehicles" received by Morocco:
Morocco to receive 500 humvee military vehicles
A humvee is not an armored vehicle.
Equally idiotic is the notion that the US has not provided Ukraine everything it can possibly spare, and probably more, from its normal minimum self defense stocks.
Here is a picture of US artillerymen training with South Korea artillery shells, because US made shells are no longer available. SK lends US 500K artillery shells
Here is a US government spokesperson admitting 17 countries' already purchased air defense missiles were given to Ukraine instead.
US diverting missiles from foreign customers to Ukraine
There are many many more, this is just what I recall off the top of my head.
You are clearly a moron with zero discernment of fact from fiction.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:01 utc | 69
aristo @ 16:54 - Surely the 20% plus returns the PTB get from the Raytheon et al stocks are more desired than the fe w percent they get at the head of the line? Not to say they scoff at the latter, of course, but the former is fun and nice pocket change.
Posted by: Caliman | Nov 2 2024 18:02 utc | 70
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw3zNIVHpA0
This vidéo is supposed to show a Russian Air Force attack today of an airfield where 10 F16 would juste have landes.
Impressive, but no info on vidéo origin
Posted by: Dany | Nov 2 2024 18:03 utc | 71
@vargas #24
Military Summary provides useful information when it documents known troop movements and combat reports.
On the other hand, Dima's political and strategic analyses are garbage.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:03 utc | 72
“All’s fair in love and war.” Since politics is essentially having a mafia steal the goods and parcel out some of the loot to its patrons, a little election theft is just business as usual. Party on!
Posted by: Butte Bill | Nov 2 2024 17:16 utc | 55
Fair enough. Calvin Ball works good.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 2 2024 18:04 utc | 73
Yet IMO by the fall of 2023 Russia could defeat any NATO invasion.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 2 2024 17:55 utc | 66
The main problem is to be able to dissuade. The Bourevestnik and the Poseidon were not ready, and I am not even sure that the Poseidon is ready now. If anyone has news about it, he will be welcome.
And it is important not to forget the way sanctions could be made useless. After the return of Crimea to the Russian Federation, the sanctions were mainly about food to which Russia was able to increase its own food production.
Trolls are known to muddy the waters.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:07 utc | 74
Both Putin and Medvedev have commented on Ukraine being a Communist creation, while the Ukrainians themselves said they wanted to erase their Communist past. So, Putin, Medvedev and others have said "We'll be happy to oblige Kiev's wishes" and return Ukraine to where it came from, which of course is Russia.
Putin in his speeches and discussions with members of government has said there're many positive aspects of the Soviet past that merit preservation and expansion, the education and health fields being the most prominent. And of course, the primary goal of Russian government at all levels is to satisfy the needs of citizens and increase their wellbeing, which was the core aim of Marxist-Leninism.
@Konami #27
I am sure Washington would have been happier with a more positive outcome but it's good enough for them as is.
I am sure you are right, at least with some people in DC.
But that only underscores how stupid and incompetent, the DC crowd is.
Let's see:
1) Russia has demonstrated not only Obama "escalatory dominance" over NATO, it has shown the Western military emperor has no clothes. That the West cannot even keep Ukraine supplied with artillery shells, air defense, aircraft and armored vehicles much less fight Russia or China directly.
2) Russia has demonstrated that the West's sanctions are not only not a death blow, but has positively turbocharged the Russian economy
3) That all of the enemies (as professed by the West) are gathering into ever closer relationships ranging from outright military alliances to BRICS+
4) The EU and Europe in general - supposedly a economic counterpart to the US and a bulwark of Western strength - is now locked into a cycle of terminal decline.
5) The BRICS+ and most of the non-West are now working on a fully parallel financial system - which will rip literally trillions of income from the West forever <-- the fruits of Western hegemony over world trade, the international financial system and the US dollar reserve.
I don't know how much more winning Russia can accomplish, or how much worse an outcome Washington DC has actually achieved.
This list makes Pyrrhus' battles seem like the Battle of Midway.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:11 utc | 76
@Butte Bill #55
No, the real analogy is Lucy, the football and Charlie Brown.
Lucy is the West, the football is NATO membership and Charlie Brown is Ukraine.
Each time Charlie Brown falls on his ass - that is another 100,000 dead and permanently crippled Ukrainian soldiers.
At some point, long since passed, failure is on Charlie Brown.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:14 utc | 77
@Cavery #58
It is ridiculous so say that Ukraine has hurt Russia.
Yes, 70K or so Russian soldiers have died.
But Russia has gained at least 10 million population plus almost all of the industrial and mineral wealth in Ukraine.
This is already a massive win by any objective measure.
Now throw in the exposure of Western military weakness, the severe damaging of Western international financial hegemony, the turbocharging of the BRICS+, the booming Russian economy - where is the pain, exactly?
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:18 utc | 78
Military Summary provides useful information when it documents known troop movements and combat reports.
On the other hand, Dima's political and strategic analyses are garbage.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:03 utc | 72
Military summaries are only useful for people who do not trust the Russian Army and the Russian Government. Like stupid people like war-gas-lighting. Since the beginning of the SMO I am confident that Russia will prevail and will put its goals into force. To put it simply, I trust Russia and I am patient because I trust.
Look at the introductory article by B quoting the nyt: it is only about territory. Never about men. But once the last Ukrainian soldier will be gone, the territory will fall like a ripe apple.
Timeo hominem unius libri. Or of one source of information.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:19 utc | 79
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 17:48 utc | 63
> You know nothing about the readiness of the Russian Army to engage a war against nato in 2014.
Well around that time the Russian army was pretty ready to engage in a war against NATO in Syria.
Maybe it wasn't ready to open two theaters simultaneously so it had to prioritize a bit, but it was pretty ready to fight nevertheless.
The situation is Syria was way more serous and dire so Russia decided to help Syria first.
Once the situation was stabilized enough over there, it changed its focus to the Ukrainian issue.
The fixing of the issue is still in process. The progress is slow but noticeable.
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:20 utc | 80
@Naive #79
I disagree - you are talking apples and oranges.
Military Summary and similar presenters are just pandering war porn to most people - and useful information to a few who filter and summarize for those not interested in war porn.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:23 utc | 81
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 2 2024 18:10 utc | 75
And again very well said! A policy which the western bourgeoisie cannot understand of course. Putin is pragmatic. Most Russians are (by personal experience)! He is also very clever.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:23 utc | 82
@Caliman #70
The stock gains are for the billionaires.
The majority of the benefits for the Deep State bureaucrats come in the form of think tank jobs with board seats for the "best" among them.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 2 2024 18:25 utc | 83
I just looked at today's Washington Post, which continues to spout the media's dogmatic line that the presidential race is too close to call.
Meanwhile, the Daily Mail has a news story that reveals the truth. Instead of attending a Penn State versus Ohio State football game in Pennsylvania today, as he had promised, Trump will instead attend a rally in Virginia. This means that internal poll results for Pennsylvania so decisively favor Trump that his staff has decided that the time, effort, and money can be more effectively spent in Virginia.
Meanwhile, today's Washington Post has a story saying that a new poll still shows Pennsylvania too close to call.
Posted by: Lysias | Nov 2 2024 14:40 utc | 16
===========
Same thing in our local (dark) blue state and county.
What surprised me: After the local paper endorsed Harris, calling her "brilliant," lots of comments were a version of "What are you smoking? She is not brilliant."
Then the paper made the IMO bigger mistake of running a news story that actually was just another long ad for Harris and against Trump, privileging a lot of TDS and stating that the race was too close to call and many were going to Pennsylvania to get out the vote for Harris, to prevent the danger of a Trump win.
To my considerable surprise in this blue hive, there was a lot of pushback in the comments. Calling out the paper for (1) running a second opinion piece supporting Harris as a news item, and (2) totally ignoring the existence in this community of Republicans, Unenrolled, and Trump voters. I think our new publisher---IMO a liberal plant from the WaPo-NYT borg---has a lot of egg on his face for both of these infractions (and why is the publisher, not the editor, writing editorials? I wonder).
The vote counts in this bluest area of a blue state will be verrrrry interesting.
Posted by: Jane | Nov 2 2024 18:31 utc | 84
Well around that time the Russian army was pretty ready to engage in a war against NATO in Syria.
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:20 utc | 80
The decision of the Russians to come to the help of Syria was taken on 30 September 2015, that is 19 months after the Maidan. And it was meant as a help and not a full war. And nato was not officially engaged in Syria, when the dirty war was done by the djihadists (as proxies of the yankeeland).
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:32 utc | 85
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 17:48 utc | 63 Missed this earlier. @19 I was explicitly saying if the RF wasn't ready for war in the Donbas, it wasn't ready for war in Crimea either. Naive misreads this (being charitable) as me saying RF was ready for both. The bad faith in quoting my judgment of Putin's political priorities (based on his record of support for Yeltsin and other things, not mindreading by the way) as even pertinent to that supposed charge against me, should be obvious. Plus of course my comment @67 is even more explicit.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 18:32 utc | 86
Tom_Q_Collins (32)
What did you do with the deer after you tackled it? Knife? Strangle? Fists?
Posted by: Ciaran | Nov 2 2024 18:32 utc | 87
Ciaran, can you please stay on topic? Tackling deer has nothing to do with Ukraine.
Posted by: Stark | Nov 2 2024 18:35 utc | 88
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:20 utc | 80
And what most people forgot or don't know is that the support for a Russian military operation in Donbass in 2014 was only 50%, which was judged not enough.
In February 2022, the support for such action became a great majority.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:35 utc | 89
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:19 utc | 79
> Look at the introductory article by B quoting the nyt: it is only about territory. Never about men. But once the last Ukrainian soldier will be gone, the territory will fall like a ripe apple.
Because it is about territory after all. That is what Putin said too: Russia cannot afford a hostile force holding Ukrainian territory, so it has to take it over. It is like a game of Go: the area denial game. I hold this place so my enemy does not.
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:36 utc | 90
"no longer a stalemate"
that's hysterical
Posted by: annie | Nov 2 2024 16:41 utc | 46
-----------------------------------------------------------
Really! Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Posted by: Ed | Nov 2 2024 17:08 utc | 53
==================
"stalemate" definition:
"a situation in which further action or progress by opposing or competing parties seems impossible.
"the war had again reached stalemate"
So "no longer a stalemate" must mean that someone is now winning and someone is now losing.
Posted by: Jane | Nov 2 2024 18:37 utc | 91
Any attempt at a peace deal earlier on between Russia and Ukraine failed - when the the West allowed the Ukrainians to carry out the Bucha Massacre - the attack was designed to stop any peace deal - and allow huge sanctions to be placed on Russia.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Nov 2 2024 18:43 utc | 92
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 18:32 utc | 85
You need to take lessons about geography and history. About Crimea, there was no choice. And Crimea was reunited without shooting.
You are displaying your complete ignorance about Putin. Especially during the Yeltsin years.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:45 utc | 93
Ukraine makes the neocons look white and liberal. Palestine makes the neocons look like what they really are, marauding , Asian , fake Jews.
In today's world, all publicity is good publicity. Ukraine losing tweaks the heart strings of Europeans , so that the spotlight on the genocide can be switched off.
Winning the propaganda war is everything.
Posted by: Giyane | Nov 2 2024 18:48 utc | 94
I'm reluctant to claim to read Putin's mind
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 2 2024 17:56 utc | 67
You are doing just that in your comments.
So: fuck off troll.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:49 utc | 95
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:32 utc | 84
> The decision of the Russians to come to the help of Syria was taken on 30 September 2015, that is 19 months after the Maidan.
These things take time to prepare. War in Syria started in 2012. By 2014 Russia was already well aware that the situation there is not rosy so they started sharpening their sabers.
> And it was meant as a help and not a full war.
Well in Ukraine we do not have a full war neither. It is just a SMO after all. ;-)
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:50 utc | 96
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:07 utc | 74
I don't have additional info there. What's new is Iran's demonstrated (homegrown) AD which I assume is available to Russia.
My argument back in 2023 is that Russia has the ability to detect NATO planes at standoff distances. So the best they could do is launch at a distance and then retreat. Although vulnerable to saturation attacks like any country is, Russia could at that time shoot down and intercept most of anything they had.
Russia's return conventional strikes against bases would be devastating. They can hit anything in Europe at ease. I would include the Middle East in that as well.
Debate around ground invasions seems rather irrelevant to me. I am of the view that Russia would look to defeat NATO but has no interest in that mess we call Europe.
So always assuming NATO would know everything I do and a lot more, you really have to ask what possesses them? What are they thinking here? It's been over for a while now.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Nov 2 2024 18:57 utc | 97
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:36 utc | 89
It is about the will of the people living on these territories. And it is about the final result. Especially demilitarisation and denazification.
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:57 utc | 98
The propaganda narrative at The NYT may be changing but that does not mean that the political elites in the West will draw the correct lessons from it. They may instead resort to more underhand methods of bringing the war to Moscow and other major Russian cities by encouraging the SBU to stage more Crocus Hall and similar terrorist attacks against the public, in the hopes of demoralising people and whittling down their support for Russia's SMO and the Kremlin. They may even start sending jihadists to Russia's Caucasus region to start a war there to deflect Russian attention away from Ukraine.
The Australian news media, deriving their information from The NYT and Murdoch's News Corpse, are still chirpy about Ukraine's chances against Russia, at least until the memos start arriving in another month to change the narrative, or until we have no more Bushmasters or junk F16s to send.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 2 2024 18:59 utc | 99
Posted by: Naive | Nov 2 2024 18:35 utc | 88
> And what most people forgot or don't know is that the support for a Russian military operation in Donbass in 2014 was only 50%, which was judged not enough.
Correct. In Crimea where the support was at 90%+ it was much simpler to pull it off.
> In February 2022, the support for such action became a great majority.
In then DNR/LNR parts for sure. In those other parts still under Kiev control, who knows? Hard to assess something that was not measured.
Posted by: hopehely | Nov 2 2024 18:59 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
Why would people so accustomed to believe narratives draw correct conclusions?
Posted by: PM | Nov 2 2024 13:15 utc | 1