Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 8, 2024
Ukraine – FT Proposes Impossible Peace Deal, Demands More Violence

By now it has become accepted wisdom that Ukraine is losing the war against Russia.

Western governments are slowly accepting that their Ukrainian proxy forces have no chance to turn the situation around. None of their own populations or military are prepared to get themselves engaged in combat. Meanwhile the war support for Ukraine is eating into their budgets.

The situation necessitates to push for an end of the war – at least a temporarily one.

The Zelenski government is officially against any talk of ceasefire or piece without it being a full Ukrainian victory. But behind close doors such talks are preceding.

That is at least what the editors of the Financial Times are telling the public:

Ukraine’s shifting war aims (archived)

In Washington and some western capitals, meanwhile — and in the corridors of Kyiv — the mood is shifting: from a determination that the war can end only with Russia’s army driven from Ukraine, to the reluctant recognition that a negotiated settlement that leaves the bulk of the country intact may be the best hope. Yet Kyiv is not being given the support it needs even to achieve that scaled-back goal.

[G]rappling simultaneously with an escalating Middle East war, even some western capitals that previously insisted on the need to defeat Russia’s Vladimir Putin militarily are recalibrating their goals. Some Kyiv officials, too, fret in private that they lack the personnel, firepower and western support to recover all territory seized by Russia. There is talk behind closed doors of a deal in which Moscow retains de facto control over the roughly one-fifth of Ukraine it has occupied — though Russia’s sovereignty is not recognised — while the rest of the country is allowed to join Nato or given equivalent security guarantees. Under that umbrella, it could rebuild and integrate with the EU, akin to West Germany in the cold war.

The plan is to concede some land to Russia while giving a NATO protection cover to a rump Ukraine.

There are at least four groups involved here who will not agree to such a solution.

All NATO countries have to agree to take up new members. If the western parts of Ukraine are allowed to join NATO who is going to keep Ukraine under control? What would happen if it provokes another war with Russia? Will all current NATO countries find that agreeing to Ukraine's NATO membership will increase their own security?

Some countries, like the Russo-phobe Baltic ones, would probably support that step. But I do no believe that any of the more sane NATO members will be willing to risk a war with Russia over an issue, Ukraine, that is only of marginal interest to them.

An Ukrainian membership in the EU will see similar hurdles. Two-third of the EU budget are agricultural subsidies designed to allow for a common market without destroying the farming communities in this or that country. The largest share of those subsidies currently goes to Poland. Ukrainian land is extremely fertile. It can produce crops at much lower costs than its EU neighbors. The EU does not have and will not have the budget to compensate for that. Any entering of Ukraine into the EU would thereby lead to losses for farmers in any if not all current EU member states.

The price advantage of Ukrainian agricultural products is the reason why Polish farmers have just restarted their blocking of border crossings with Ukraine (machine translation):

Polish farmers blocked traffic at several checkpoints last winter and spring. They demanded that the Polish government suspend the transit of Ukrainian agricultural products, the import of which was previously prohibited.

The farmers of Poland have an unusually big influence on the country's policies. Poland will thereby likely be the country most opposed to a EU membership of Ukraine. Others will agree with it.

Ukraine itself would of course also have to agree to a ceasefire or peace agreement that would lead to a loss of some 25% of its land. While the average Ukrainian may well favor a land for peace deal a distinct minority on the radical right is adamant against it. As a previous FT piece noted (archived):

“If you get into any negotiation, it could be a trigger for social instability,” says a Ukrainian official. “Zelenskyy knows this very well.”

“There will always be a radical segment of Ukrainian society that will call any negotiation capitulation. The far right in Ukraine is growing. The right wing is a danger to democracy,” says Merezhko, who is an MP for Zelenskyy’s Servant of the People party.

The radical segment in Ukraine's society, aka the Nazis, are heavily armed and experienced in combat. They do have sympathy in the higher ranks of the Ukrainian army. The former Chief of Staff General Zaluzny is known for good relations with it as is General Budanov, the current head of the military intelligence service.

A civil government of Ukraine which wants to engage in serious peace negotiations will first have to neutralize those radical forces. Without that it will have little chance to survive their onslaught.

The fourth party that would have to agree to such a ceasefire, and NATO membership for a rump Ukraine, is of course Russia.

Russia was, is, and will be against any membership in NATO of any part of Ukraine:

In January 2008, William Burns, the U. S. Ambassador to Russia at the time, sent a classified cable to Washington in which he summarized Russia’s concerns about NATO expansion. The subject line, “Nyet means Nyet,” or “No means No,” conveyed in a single word Burns’ belief that NATO expansion into Ukraine was “brightest of all redlines” for Russia.

Russia largely launched its special military operation in 2022 to prevent a NATO membership for Ukraine. It was and is sure that any encroachment of NATO in Ukraine will be used to weaken Russia. It is now winning the war in Ukraine. To now agree on some form of NATO membership for a rump of Ukraine would contradict the war's purpose.

The ceasefire or peace plan the FT editorial foresees depends on the agreement of all NATO and EU member states as well as the approval by the Ukrainian and Russian government. Neither of the four groups is likely to sign off on it.

The FT editors know this well:

This scenario relies, however, on ambitious assumptions. One is that the US and its allies must be prepared to offer Nato membership or the necessary guarantees, when they have so far been reluctant to grant Kyiv a binding path into the alliance.

A second assumption is that Russia’s president can be induced to negotiate and accept such a scenario. But preventing Ukraine from joining Nato was one of his ostensible war aims.

But instead of rejecting the plan because it is obviously infeasible the editors demand to apply more violence to achieve its acceptance:

Whether the goal is outright victory or bringing Russia to the table, western allies need to strengthen Ukraine’s hand. The Kremlin can only be pushed into talks on a deal that might be satisfactory for Kyiv, and the west, if it feels the costs of fighting on are too high. And any resolution to the war that enables all or part of Ukraine to survive and prosper will need guarantees of its security.

We cannot yet know how the war will end. But it is within the west’s power — and interest — to help Ukraine regain the upper hand over its foe.

The editorial is a demonstration of the childish naivety that is predominant in western government thinking: Ukraine is losing. Propose a peace agreement that has no chance of getting implemented. Demand to intensify and prolong the war to -may be- make the infeasible peace plan less infeasible.

But Ukraine and the west have lost the war. Negotiating a ceasefire of peace deal with oneself, as the FT editors do, does no make it plausible. All ways to a deal that is "satisfactory for Kyiv, and the west" have long been foreclosed – by the west. There will simply be no deal like that – ever.

Denying that reality will only lead to higher losses for Ukraine and for the west.

Comments

RF needs to get to Odessa, pick up the major prize.
Forget Kieve, let it rot on the vine.
Odessa is the key to making the Nazi state collapse. No seaport no trade, no ammo, no more war.
Cut off the head of the snake.

Posted by: Tobias Cole | Oct 9 2024 12:03 utc | 201

“Odessa’s big players cornered Black Sea trade in the 18th Century, or before.
Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 10:12 utc | 191
Odessa was only founded in 1794 so you are off at your time line.
If you are interested pick up Scott Reynold’s , “Oceans of Grain” (1) this tome explains the Black earth in Odessawas was displaced by cheaper America grain exports to Europe in the 1860’s:
1. https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/scott-reynolds-nelson/oceans-of-grain/9781541646452/?lens=basic-books

Posted by: canuck | Oct 9 2024 12:04 utc | 202

From Intelslava Z:
“The Ukrainian parliament has adopted a bill banning the mobilization of citizens aged 18 to 25, Ukrainian MP Oleksiy Goncharenko reported.”
If this information is true, can anyone explain why the Ukrainian parliament would pass such a bill? There will be a certain number of volunteers from this age group, but why is there no mobilization?
In the last century, it was probably this age group that most often actively participated in combat operations? One reason (among others) for this is probably that fitness is at its best in this age group.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the fewer Ukrainians are forcibly mobilized, the better. I just don’t understand from a military standpoint, why a country that is struggling to find new troops would make such a decision to ignore the most suitable age group.

Posted by: NoName | Oct 9 2024 12:10 utc | 203

Harris/Waltz for the win, and the future of America and world peace.
Posted by: Phil R | Oct 9 2024 11:58 utc | 204
Well, it ain’t them either. The US has a choice in a month- war or more war.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 12:10 utc | 204

Do you think Ukraine is the only place where wheat is available ?
Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 11:46 utc | 200

That was never my claim. I said that Odessa hosts the marketplace for goods from the Danube Basin and the Black Sea, and that Odessians cornered that market centuries ago.
The credit derivatives market and the physical settlement market are two different things. Physical settlement is the foundation credit is built upon.
Your posts on this topic are a reminder that the world is past due for a lesson on pricing.

Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 12:18 utc | 205

Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 12:10 utc | 209
War is a given, the choice is:
Married to a Jew (Harris)
Hidden Jew (Trump…Drumpf)
Actual Jew (Stein)

Posted by: qparker | Oct 9 2024 12:22 utc | 206

Odessa was only founded in 1794 so you are off at your time line.
Posted by: canuck | Oct 9 2024 12:04 utc | 207

While I’m pretty sure 1794 is within the 18th-c, the trading city on the Danube Estuary called Odessa predates its current name by centuries, as its catacombs attest.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/odessa-catacombs-0012458

Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 12:34 utc | 207

@1917 | Oct 9 2024 11:54 utc | 203
Something is definitely very wrong with those Ukrainians. They gladly do everything they are told to do with the exception of dying. They don’t have a problem with killing Russians, be that Russian soldiers or Russian civilians, because that is what they are told to do. But since the Ukies don’t like dying they burn the vehicles of the recruiters, to stop them from taking Ukies to their deaths on the front lines. But once on the frontlines the Ukies have no problem retreating to save their lives, to fight the Russians again, because that is what they are told to do. At no time do they surrender en-masse to the Russians, because they weren’t told to do that, and they are unable to use their own brains. So why are the Russians going to great lengths not to kill Ukie civilians? Russia should just flatten every building in Ukie hands regardless of the civilians inside of them because those civilians are a waste of oxygen, but Russia doesn’t do that.
Sure seems like Communism wiped the mojo out of the Ukies, then the 1990’s crash further wiped out the mojo, and then the economic situation in Ukraine post independence wiped out what was left. Now its just people who will do whatever you tell them to do if you hit them hard enough, plus you have to give them some drugs as well. That is probably what is going to happen in the West once the long overdue economic collapse happens.

Posted by: gT | Oct 9 2024 12:39 utc | 208

I think, in fairness to that poster, he’s referring to a situation where the US withdraws from NATO. Which, theoretically could be accomplished without military force.
Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 12:00 utc | 205
I would go further and say there’s no military way of breaking up NATO. Direct confrontation results in a loss for both sides so neither is going to go down that road voluntarily. It has to be a political decision by NATO members that forces the USA out of NATO or the inability of the USA to fund their military which is unlikely in the near future.
The Russians have been trying to be accepted by the “west’ since 1720 … it’s not going to happen. I think Russia has to accept the fact that a beligerant NATO isn’t going to leave their borders and fight to a good, defensible demarcation line in Ukraine like the Dneiper River then drop a new Iron Curtain, lock the door, put out the closed sign and turn east.
The Chinese earn on average $2B / day in USD through their trade surplus. They’ve been investing that money in mines, ore refineries, railways and ports all over the global south. Rebuilding the Donbas into a modern mining, refining and manufacturing region is right up their ally.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Oct 9 2024 12:39 utc | 209

From Intelslava Z:
“The Ukrainian parliament has adopted a bill banning the mobilization of citizens aged 18 to 25, Ukrainian MP Oleksiy Goncharenko reported.”
If this information is true, can anyone explain why the Ukrainian parliament would pass such a bill? There will be a certain number of volunteers from this age group, but why is there no mobilization?
Posted by: NoName | Oct 9 2024 12:10 utc | 208

The young generation are the ones who grew up in an environment of total Banderite brainwashing.
The 50-year olds grew up in Soviet times.
So if you send the 50-year olds in the trenches to be killed off by the Russians, what you are left with is a strong net Banderization of the country, cemented for the future.
Of course, from a Russian point of view there is the problem that even the 50-year olds have been fighting like committed Banderites, but still, there is a serious difference between the generations.
Before censorship in Ukraine become truly total and when Russians were advancing fast, videos used to come out of the towns near, on, or past the frontlines. I remember several of old Ukrainian women arguing with their grandsons about what is happening — the grandsons having grown up to be loyal Banderites, the grandmothers knowing the truth and trying to explain it, to no avail.
If you are Russia, you want them to be sending the 18 to 30 year olds and to kepp the 50-year olds in the rear, so that you can kill off the ideologicals and save the rest. But of course it is the opposite.
This isn’t the only such game being played.
Mobilization has also been carried out with covert ethnic cleaning in mind. Preferentially people from the Russian speaking regions as well as from Transcarpathia have been the ones sent to the front lines. Not those from the Banderistan heartland. For obvious reasons.
And, of course, the Kremlin has obliged in once again shooting itself in the foot and going for a war of attrition. To kill off preferentially the Russian speaking population of Ukraine and leave it even more Banderized than before rather than quickly taking over the whole thing, rounding up the Banderites for execution, saving the Russian speaking population, and also preventing NATO from escalating.
Because, for a long list of reasons having to do with the internal political objectives of preserving and maximizing the oligarchical capitalism system that was established under Yeltsin and the maintenance of which was Putin’s main task when he was installed in power, doing what was necessary to properly win the war was not and still is not on the Kremlin’s agenda.

Posted by: 1917 | Oct 9 2024 12:40 utc | 210

Posted by: JulianH | Oct 9 2024 11:14 utc | 197

Now please tell me Russia’s exit strategy from the SMO with Ukraine and the actually larger War with the US and NATO?

Why would b tell you anything? Just your question is offputting.
You read and/or write to much MSM bullshit, assuming Russia needs this or that.
The Russians are happy killing ukrops, NATO adventurers, destroying NATO gear, and making European people vote for the ‘far right’.
So Russians will carry on and the big losers will be ukrops fascists and oligarchs and Western halfwits and vassals.
Thanks to Dr. Putin we will get rid of all these mediocre uppity obnoxious politicians infesting our European institutions.
Then we wil get back to business.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Oct 9 2024 12:43 utc | 211

@1917
“Tactics without strategy is the road to defeat”
-Sun Tzu
Don’t confuse the ability to launch a few terror attacks with a competent military. By your reasoning, ISIS was a competent military force.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Oct 9 2024 12:55 utc | 212

Posted by: 1917 | Oct 9 2024 12:40 utc | 215

… preserving and maximizing the oligarchical capitalism system …

You sound like a resentful bum complaining about the well deserved riches of successful Russian entrepreneurs, no offense.
Do something productive with your life instead of posting inanities sitting in a cubicle earning pennies as a concern troll.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Oct 9 2024 12:57 utc | 213

Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 12:18 utc | 210
I don’t think you understand the term “market .” It’s not a physical place only . Centuries ago, yes bazaars and markets were set up in a public square to trade goods at. But today it can be anywhere. And again the prices of goods and services in a market are determined by supply and demand, not by where the good is sold.. And the price fluctuates.
So it doesn’t matter who “controls” Odessa in an economic sense, as the price of goods sold there isn’t determinative.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 13:04 utc | 214

I think the RF will happily accept their unconditional surrender, while pointing out that they have no authority for negotiating anything else.
Posted by: Honzo | Oct 8 2024 23:12 utc | 115
=================================================
There are many good comments on this thread but the path of least resistance towards the end is through the military as has been mentioned here on and off.
As also mentioned by many, Russia has no reason to trust anyone resulting in it dictating its terms.
‘We don’t need no stinking negotiations.’
The warmongerings losing face will be so gratifying.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 9 2024 13:07 utc | 215

Interesting post on FPV comms tech which reveals that FPV drones mass produced under state contract have to be reworked with new comms modules in order for them to remain effective in the comms-vs-EW arms race.
It is characteristic that these state contract drones bear the imprint of both MoD inflexibility and bureaucratic threats at necessary adaptation to real combat conditions.
At least in the case of Sudoplatov (VT-40), I’d already formed the impression that this manufacturer was overly motivated by a greedy desire to monopolise its sector by locking out third party innovators. The fact that their drones already need to have their “warranty” voided in order to remain effective suggest a degree of pathology.
Perhaps a tour of the front line would cure what ails them?
https://t.me/UAVDEV/7385

By the way, everyone knows Hermes , but undeservedly forgets Gagaring and his Grasshopper .
The guys work in many areas where they remake drones for normal communication – and rewired ELRS, and install their own Grasshopper, and even restore and reuse used Peppas
. I hope that someday they will make a post about this work of theirs😉
It’s an open secret, but many boomerangs and sudoplatovtsy reach their target only because, despite the manufacturer’s direct prohibitions, they are reworked on site to a sane state. First of all, via communications.
The fighters do not advertise this, because they may not give the drones later. But this is a VERY common story.
That’s how we fight…

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 9 2024 13:10 utc | 216

More evidence – that the US was involved in blowing the NordStream pipelines – this terrorist attack is an act of war.
“According to the article, American warships had been operating in the area east of the Danish island of Bornholm with their transponders switched off.
The paper spoke to John Anker Nielsen, the harbormaster at the Danish port of Christianso, located near Bornholm. He said he had decided to share details of the events of September 2022, despite initially being “not allowed to say a thing” about them.”
https://www.rt.com/news/605461-nord-stream-us-navy/

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Oct 9 2024 13:14 utc | 217

But today it can be anywhere.
Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 13:04 utc | 219

Dreamland is an illusion. Sam Bankman-Fried found out.

Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 13:15 utc | 218

Trump is no savior, there has to be someone else. Who, I don’t know, but it’s not Trump.
Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 8:04 utc | 175
It’s Jill Stein. But she openly opposes Neolibcon policies so the Establishment will always cancel her. Trump is the best bet because he is prepared to lie, to cheat, to steal, ie meet the neolibcons on their own territory.

Posted by: Tim | Oct 9 2024 13:16 utc | 219

War is a given, the choice is:
Married to a Jew (Harris)
Hidden Jew (Trump…Drumpf)
Actual Jew (Stein)
Posted by: qparker | Oct 9 2024 12:22 utc | 211
______
…and, ironically perhaps, it’s the actual Jew who opposed the genocide us Palestinians and US involvement in Country 404.
Of course, if that isn’t good enough, there’s still Cornel West, a variety of socialists, and (I assume) a libertarian to choose from.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 9 2024 13:26 utc | 220

*genocide of Palestinians (of course)

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 9 2024 13:27 utc | 221

Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 13:15 utc | 223
Cryptocurrency is a tangible good? Funny, didn’t know that. I’ll post some links to some economic books and articles some time later so you can re-educate yourself on the topic.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 13:36 utc | 222

Trump is the best bet because he is prepared to lie, to cheat, to steal
Posted by: Tim | Oct 9 2024 13:16 utc | 224
Yes, but only to benefit himself. That’s why I don’t trust him. Still, if he does take down the neolibcons along the way, now that would be worth it.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 9 2024 13:41 utc | 223

Johan Kaspar@216…..only a sick fuck, demented by years of being the centre of their own universe would take pleasure or, have fun, killing other human beings…….mental sickness at best.
Then you whine, I whine, I whine, that Dr Putin, he’s a doctor now, needs to save their sorry fucking ass.
……”Thanks to Dr. Putin we will get rid of all these mediocre uppity obnoxious politicians infesting our European institutions”….
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Oct 9 2024 13:42 utc | 224

Theres three areas of potential and actual conflict in the World presently. Middle East, Ukraine and China. Give each candidate (trump, harris or Stien) one point for each of these conflicts that broadly you are happy with the candidates position.
For me.
Trump….0 points Middle East, 0 points China, 1 point Ukraine = total 1 pt
Harris….0 points Middle East, 0 ponits China, 0 points Ukraine = total 0 ponits
Stien….1 point Middle East, 0 points China, 1 point Ukraine = total 2 pts
WINNER = STIEN

Posted by: HERMIUS | Oct 9 2024 13:44 utc | 225

1917 | Oct 9 2024 11:54 utc | 203
Ok, sb, we understand, you think Putin Must Go.
I think Shadowbanned Must Go, back to the Father Of Lies who sent him.
Putin inherited a ransacked and bewildered country, with a poor and demoralized people,” Solzhenitsyn told the German magazine Der Spiegel in a 2007 interview, when Putin was still president. “And he started to do what was possible, a slow and gradual restoration. These efforts were not noticed, nor appreciated, immediately. In any case, one is hard-pressed to find examples in history when steps by one country to restore its strength were met favorably by other governments.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Oct 9 2024 13:44 utc | 226

@ 1917 | Oct 9 2024 12:40 utc | 215
Thank you for your detailed reply.
Reactions to this are not exactly positive.
However, I am not familiar enough with the topic you have explained and must say that it at least seems plausible.

Posted by: NoName | Oct 9 2024 13:47 utc | 227

The entire point of Ukraine in Europe was laid down by Wolfowitz and Brzezinski in the 1990s, when Russia was being looted.
“Russia + Ukraine = Global Power”
“Russia – Ukraine = Regional Power”
At that time the United States had hegemony over Central Asia and China was still a blur in the rear view mirror. It was The End Of History, and the job of the US was to keep it that way, and that meant detaching Ukraine from Russia.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Oct 9 2024 13:50 utc | 228

@ 1917 | Oct 9 2024 11:54 utc | 203 AKA SB
And again, whose fault is it ?
Jumping in midstream re the historical timeline/record, the Dulles brothers (OSS(>CIA)/State) on behalf of thier masters starting mid WWII, then the covert & not so overt efforts & resources of the Empire/5-Eyes through the end of the war, thence 9/14-Eyes from ’50-56 onwards as well, and with grim dedication & relentless inexhaustable determination ever since, merely as a snapshot.
Alas you can never acknowledge any of the above, your role/function/position/income depends on not doing so. Psyops op who dwells under bridges …

Posted by: Outraged | Oct 9 2024 13:57 utc | 229

About Odessa
Odessa was founded in 1794 on the instructions of the Russian Tsarina Catherine the Great as a city, but the town of Odessa had existed much further back, in the 14th century. Only two years earlier, the entire region had fallen to Moscow after the end of the sixth Russo-Turkish war.
Before the city of Odessa was founded, there was a monastery with extensive catacombs on this site, around 15% of which can be visited today, but only around 35% has been explored. The existing plaques in these catacombs state, among other things, when and who found refuge in this monastery, and these plaques in turn date from the 15th to 17th centuries.
In the area around Odessa there were large areas in which Germans settled. And they dominated the city’s business traffic.
About Kiev
There is hardly a city in Russia that is more Russian than Kiev!
Why:
Kiev, the “mother of all Russian cities” was the center of power of the first Russian Empire, the Kievan Rus, the forerunner state of later Russia, in the Middle Ages. And since then it has been considered the founding city of Russia!
.
By the way, before 1917 Ukraine called itself the “Russian Empire of the West Ukrainian People’s Republic” – here again emphasis on “Russian”.
And finally, to complete the argument about who owns Odessa, I would like to say out of sarcasm: ODESSA BELONGS TO GERMANY (=
The area of ​​Ukraine today was a historical settlement center for Germans in the Tsarist Empire. The Black Sea metropolis of Odessa was an important cultural center for Germans until the outbreak of the Second World War, with a high population and a wide range of cultural and social offerings.
Feedback geben
Seitenleisten
Verlauf
Gespeichert

Posted by: ossi | Oct 9 2024 14:01 utc | 230

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 9 2024 13:26 utc | 225
Posted by: HERMIUS | Oct 9 2024 13:44 utc | 230
I am sure Jill will perform her duty as controlled opposition every bit as effectively as Bernie Sanders, we are so lucky to have her.

Posted by: qparker | Oct 9 2024 14:02 utc | 231

The Russians have been trying to be accepted by the “west’ since 1720 … it’s not going to happen.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Oct 9 2024 12:39 utc | 214
This is truth. Imagine the members of Russian elite, so educated, so eager to accept the western values. Wishing to be accepted by the West. Now came the difficult realization that only good Russian for the west is dead Russian.
The do not see themselves as Asians, they do not see themselves, even as Russians, but as a big family of all “young and successful” neoliberals. They feel more for New York then for Moscow.

Posted by: vargas | Oct 9 2024 14:03 utc | 232

The case of Ernest and Goodwin, maliciously sent to their deaths, seems to have fortified an unwillingness to sit and watch unjustifiable losses go unchallenged. The repeated storming of unweakened Ukrainian positions is neither an isolated nor a recent phenomenon.
All for the sake of transferring responsible supervision into units with high losses: these and other problems have been intentionally concealed behind the lies of hype-clowns all along.
For reference, Rybar is as official as it gets while still being meaningfully independent.
https://t.me/rybar/64283

🇷🇺🇺🇦 Seversky direction: you can make mistakes, but you can’t lie, part 1
Situation as of 16:00 on October 9
For the last few days, victorious reports have been coming in from several areas of the Seversky direction without stopping, but they have nothing to do with reality.
🔻Some resources managed to report that on the Belogorovka-Grigorovka line, Russian troops allegedly managed not only to advance significantly, but also to take half of Serebryanka. As evidence, today’s video of the raising of a flag on the outskirts of Grigorovka is cited .
In reality, everything is different: by September 15, the Russian Armed Forces were able to consolidate their positions in the ruins of the first rise of the Western Filtration Station. A group of several fighters moved through a narrow strip of “greenery” on the southern bank of the Seversky Donets and planted that very flag, after which they retreated to their original positions.
❗️There is no talk of any control over this area yet.
The southern bank of the Seversky Donets is cut by gullies, ravines and hundreds of craters, so it is extremely limited for equipment, especially given the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ advantage in UAVs in this direction. Several mortar crews and enemy UAV operators are operating in the forest to the north. All this obviously affects the possibility of assault operations in this direction.
🔻Belogorivka itself , which has already become synonymous with “cemetery”, is under the complete control of Ukrainian formations. Russian attack aircraft (ed: infantrymen) can reach isolated buildings on the eastern outskirts of the settlement, but this can often be called a “one-way trip”.
The ruins of the Popasnyansky district water supply system ( the second rise of the Western filtration station ) are virtually uncontrolled by anyone, since they are located in a lowland relative to a chalk mountain – a dominant height occupied by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Further south, up to Zolotarevka , the control zones remain static, and the Artemonovskoye tract and the heights to the west and north are well fortified by the enemy.
📌Thus, the advances of the Russian Armed Forces near Grigorovka are extremely local in nature and were achieved as a result of extremely difficult battles and at a considerable cost.
If you have any additions to the situation, you want us to highlight the successes of your unit, you can always write to us in the feedback bot @rybar_feedback_bot

https://t.me/rybar/64284

🇷🇺🇺🇦 Seversky direction: you can make mistakes, but you can’t lie part 2
Victorious reports were also heard from the area to the south: several days ago there were reports about the alleged liberation of Verkhnekamensky, which is also not true.
🔻To the east of the village there is a large stronghold, which Russian troops try to storm on average once every two weeks. Due to the active use of UAVs by the enemy and the lack of cover in the required quantity, the attacks are akin to a “one-way ticket”.
Moreover, their scenario has not changed for a long time: armored groups of the Russian Armed Forces move from Verkhnekamenka or Zolotarevka , landing troops in the east of the stronghold. The fighters find themselves in open broken trenches, coming under artillery and UAV strikes: the assault groups are killed, and the remnants are captured or finished off by the enemy.
❗️Over the past months, this has happened more than once or twice. Such unjustified, crude tactics, which do not change even after all the significant losses in people and equipment, can be safely called sabotage Verkhnekamenskoye itself is also under the control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces – it cannot be taken without a successful assault on the heights to the north and south, which are still occupied by the enemy. The Russian flag on the western outskirts of the village, footage of which was circulated on the Internet, was in fact simply dropped from a drone, and footage from the DPR was passed off as other “video evidence”.
🔻On the southern face of the Seversky direction in the area of ​​Spornoye and Ivano-Daryevka, the real advance of Russian troops has been recorded. However, it is happening in forest belts without pompous statements and is confirmed mainly by footage of objective control from the enemy.
The situation is different with Vyemka and the railway station of the same name, also allegedly liberated in accordance with previous statements by the Ministry of Defense. Judging by the videos popping up on the Internet from both sides, the stopping point is still occupied by the enemy, and Russian troops are operating on the southern edge of the Zmeiny Yar nature reserve and the heights to the east. That is, there is no talk of taking the village.
❗️In general, the situation remains difficult and tense in almost all the areas mentioned. Reports of great successes are a hoax and a banal deception of the leadership, which obviously affects the credibility of such reports.
But for what purpose, month after month, the same patterned attacks continue near Verkhnekamenskoye and Belogorovka , with the expenditure of not at all endless personnel, is a question for the authorized structures. There are too many lies there for such a number of errors.
If you have additions to the situation, you want us to highlight the successes of your unit, you can always write to us in the feedback bot @rybar_feedback_bot

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 9 2024 14:04 utc | 233

vargas | Oct 9 2024 14:03 utc | 237
“Imagine the members of Russian elite, so educated, so eager to accept the western values. Wishing to be accepted by the West.”
The West was eager to accept oligarch money, but how many of the oligarchs were ethnically Russian anyway? Abramovich? Berezofsky? Khodorkovsky?

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Oct 9 2024 14:13 utc | 234

Ok, sb, we understand, you think Putin Must Go.
Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Oct 9 2024 13:44 utc | 231
Anyone who’s been paying attention over the last 50 years knows that ever since Putin brought down Yeltsin and kicked the carpet baggers and western supporting oligarchs out of Russia the USA has been doing everything in their power to get rid of him. All this Ukraine and Georgia bullshit is because Putin won’t play ball.
They did the same thing with Iran for having the audacity of removing the Shah … or the CPC for defeating Chiang Kai-shek … or Korea. Anyplace that tell Americans they aren’t welcome gets the same treatment … sanctions and war.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Oct 9 2024 14:14 utc | 235

@1917
“Tactics without strategy is the road to defeat”
-Sun Tzu
Don’t confuse the ability to launch a few terror attacks with a competent military. By your reasoning, ISIS was a competent military force.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Oct 9 2024 12:55 utc | 217

Yes, strategy.
Once again, did anyone ever think Russia would one day be bombed daily by NATO without firing a shot in response, the same situation that destroyed states like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, etc. find themselves in?
It is the accepted reality now.
That looks like quite a strategic shift in the balance of power to me…

Posted by: 1917 | Oct 9 2024 14:20 utc | 236

YetAnotherAnon | Oct 9 2024 14:13 utc | 239
Interesting. Are you saying the oligarchs who amassed vast wealth in Russia during the 1990s aren’t actually ethnically Russian? Do these people see the Russian people as somehow being sub human? Is that why they happily enriched themselves by grinding Russia into the ground in the 1990s? Is that why they hate Vladimir Putin; because he is Russian?
By the way, what is the ethnicity of Abramovich, Berezofsky, and Khodorkovsky if they aren’t Russian? Are they in any way ethnically linked to the current U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken whose father was former U.S. Ambassodor to Hungary, Donald Blinken?
Odd that the all of these guys hate Putin. What is their motivation? Could this ethnic link somehow give us insight into the current war in Ukraine? It’s one of those things I sit and ponder sometimes.

Posted by: Nobody Special | Oct 9 2024 14:37 utc | 237

DS Map intel dropped, an hour ago.
https://deepstatemap.live/en#11/51.3235320/34.7834015
About 24 kmsq, which would be a “big day”. Note however that this was a 36 hour update. DS missed the update yesterday. So, if we get a later update today fine. Unlikely, so if this is really a “2 day” update (i.e. the missed day not made up), than it’s low, at 12/day.
[RFA need ~20/day to achieve 600 kmsq, for the month, showing continued acceleration (to justify the attrition/collapse hoper-copers. They need 16/day to get to 480/month, to roughly equal last month’s record. Anything less is regression, not acceleration.]
1. Gray zone increase near Plavni/Kamianske (left “hinge” of the flat Zhap front). Note this requires crossing the causeway of the mouth of the Yochekrak River (where it meets the Dnieper), although supposedly water levels are down. It is at least a threat towards activation of this front. Interesting that DS covers this as they summarized it in the text announcement–usually don’t summarize gray zone moves.
2. Large “clarification” red zone move in Robotyne and the fields west of it. Note this is not a recent move, but DS admitting to having a long incorrect version. It’s cope correction, or censor fessing up, probably. At this point, DS shows most of the town in red, with a small sliver in gray. Still delaying the embarrassing “RFA capture” fessing up. All in all, it’s still the major contributor territory wise, to RFA having a good day. I’m fine with this, since basically the cope correction catches up and if following territory over the long haul.
3. RFA advance into Zolata Nyva (town on the front a bit west of Vuhledar). Probably cope correction as the gray didn’t move at all and DS just converted some gray to red. This is just a few days delayed though. Not like the Robotyne, long out of date line in (2).
4. RFA advance north of Vuhledar and W of Vodiane. Looks like a real advance as the gray moved also. And it makes sense as part of the slow clearing of areas near Vuhledar.
5. RFA advance further into Tsukuryne, including a portion of red on the W side of the tracks. Also small advances in fields north and south of the E-side of the town. Looks like real progress as the gray moved.
6. Another small advance of RFA in Toretsk. Also a field to SE of the town (N of Zalizne). Continuing the grinding advance. I think RFA has the relative advantage here, but it is still a place that is far from “collapsing”. UFA includes Azov troops, which are relatively better armed, younger, etc. Also, RFA does not have a pocket or even semi-pocket encirclement, but is having to drive a salient instead.

Posted by: Anonymous | Oct 9 2024 14:44 utc | 238

@ qparker | Oct 9 2024 14:02 utc | 236
Potemkin pantomimes. ‘Tis not all futile irrelevancy when living in an unmasked anocracy ?
@ 1917 | Oct 9 2024 14:20 utc | 241 AKA SB et al
Once again, have your masters(US/UK/AU/SA/UAE/etc) ever recognized their decade long comprehensive defeat by the Yemenis/Houthis (Ansar Allah) ? Can you ?
Have they yet recognized the utter strategic/operational serial naval defeats over the last year by the Yemenis/Houthis ? Supposed sole remaining superpower & vassals exposed to all the world as naked, vulnerable, unable to project power, fearful for their multi-billion$ rust buckets ?
Unable to safely transit thru and/or operate in the Red Sea/Suez Canal …
Demonstrably incapable of breaching the devastating years long Israhell blockade ?
Even bribery in desperation & despair failed, openly mocked.
The Jig is up. The end of Pax Americana approaches.

Posted by: Outraged | Oct 9 2024 14:47 utc | 239

I see that anon2020 slowly but steadily went the way of the concerned doomer as well. A shame.

Posted by: boneless | Oct 9 2024 14:59 utc | 240

Posted by: 1917 | Oct 9 2024 14:20 utc | 241
Russia is not bombed daily by Nato, or better the bombing attempts are, more or less insignificant.
On the other side Nato is daily bombed in Ukraine by RF with shure better results.

Posted by: Mario | Oct 9 2024 15:08 utc | 241

Unable to safely transit thru and/or operate in the Red Sea/Suez Canal …
Demonstrably incapable of breaching the devastating years long Israhell blockade ?
Even bribery in desperation & despair failed, openly mocked.
The Jig is up. The end of Pax Americana approaches.
Posted by: Outraged | Oct 9 2024 14:47 utc | 244
Wasn’t it some dust-up over the Suez canal that ended yurpean imperial dreams for good? 1956 or something like that? So here we are again.

Posted by: Bemildred | Oct 9 2024 15:19 utc | 242

I am sure Jill will perform her duty as controlled opposition every bit as effectively as Bernie Sanders, we are so lucky to have her.
Posted by: qparker | Oct 9 2024 14:02 utc | 236
____
I see you’ve retreated from implying that Stein is just as Zionazi as the other candidates to seeking shelter in a rather silly hypothetical.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 9 2024 16:01 utc | 243

@ Bemildred | Oct 9 2024 15:19 utc | 247
Well met, again. History ryming ? 🙂
See: Suez Crisis 1956, no ?.
US/USSR put the former UK/French empires delusions to rest, along with giving young upstart Israhell a sound spanking. In so doing US of A openly declared it’s Superpower hegemony, public submission & transformation of UK/FR to non sovereign vassal status. Lucky us (earthlings)
Cheers

Posted by: Outraged | Oct 9 2024 16:31 utc | 244

Posted by: boneless | Oct 9 2024 14:59 utc | 245
To judge from the increasingly defensive tone of those who find themselves the subject to ongoing corruption and misconduct investigations, what you term “concerned doomer” is quite close to the new school of professional reformer, acting on authority from the very top of Russian state politics.
It’d be a shame for you to whole eat a heap of shit only to find Russian officialdom suddenly more progressive than yourself.
Have a care, gentle soul.

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 9 2024 17:34 utc | 245

@ anon2020 | Oct 9 2024 17:34 utc | 250
As was mentioned on this forum multiple times in regards to concerned doomers – this isn’t Russian MoD nor General Staff. Who are you complaining to with such dramatic flair? Your knee jerk emotional reactions backed by progressively cherry picking sources sounds more and more like the-one-who-should-not-be-named-here.
I’ll be honest, I have no idea what you just accused me of, either. Perhaps you’re spending too much time in your own head.

Posted by: boneless | Oct 9 2024 17:50 utc | 246

The demilitarization of NATO continues:
Another shitriot missile defense system destroyed:
https://t.me/llordofwar/374679

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Oct 9 2024 18:33 utc | 247

The Ukr have said many times that they don’t have anything left (of weapons, ammunitions etc), but that’s probably just their way of begging for more. Although it’s just crazy if the west still gives them more & more after the Kursk spending spree.
And yes, NATO is really incompetent.

Posted by: Avtonom | Oct 9 2024 19:25 utc | 248

One glaring issue that neither FT nor b nor any other commenter has mentioned is the impossibility of peace for Russia while any of its territory is under occupation. There will be no deal and absolutely no ceasefire while even a single enemy is alive in Kursk, Kherson, Donetsk, Lugansk or Zaporizhia. It is consitutionally impossible for Russia to negotiate about this.

Posted by: Condo Redondo | Oct 9 2024 20:25 utc | 249

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 9 2024 14:04 utc | 238
Funny, change the names and you could be reading a Ukrainian account that details all the perceived problems of their armed forces, though I think they’d have a stronger case. I can’t think of many military campaigns, if any, that escape criticism for failing to perform to the standards of the observer. Even highly successful operations cannot seemingly avoid this ordeal by amateur/non-combatant, eager to impose their observations on all who will listen (which is a large group thanks to SM).
Victory is often defined by the side who makes the least mistakes, when it matters the most, everything else is, operationally, largely irrelevant.

Posted by: Milites | Oct 9 2024 20:44 utc | 250

National unity in Ukraine works until the local leaders start getting annoyed:

Dnipro mayor Filatov accuses law enforcement officers of trying to destroy local self-government
Borys Filatov claims a large-scale campaign has been deployed to destroy local self-government with the involvement of law enforcement officers.
The mayor of Dnipro published this statement on his Facebook page.
“Friends, as you may have noticed, over the past few weeks, an unprecedented campaign to destroy local self-government has been launched against the Dnipro City Council. Dozens of criminal cases, hundreds of searches, numerous arrests. All this arbitrariness somehow strangely coincides with a terrible information campaign to discredit employees and deputies,” said Borys Filatov.
He emphasized that such arbitrariness is happening despite the fact that the front is approaching the city of Dnipro.
“The front is getting closer and closer to Dnipro, and people who have and should at least do something are being systematically exterminated and destroyed. Soon there will not be a single professional leader who can go to the place of a missile strike. Because they are all either suspended or arrested altogether,” emphasized Filatov.
He also reported that the Dnipro City Council cannot purchase either drones or electronic warfare items “due to the endless harassment of those who work around the clock on the vitality of Ukrainian cities.”
According to the mayor of Dnipro, such pressure from law enforcement officers will continue.
“Now there is actually a second million army of people in the rear, justifying their absence at the front by mass bullying of business and local self-government. So I want to warn all citizens – this will continue. The reasons are unknown to me. That may be an indication, preparation for the elections or the desire to profit from other people’s health and honor. Or, perhaps, this is part of the Russian scenario,” Filatov said.
Filatov emphasized that the city authorities are ready to give comprehensive and public answers to all accusations.
Commenting on the situation in general, the mayor of Dnipro also noted that during almost 10 years of his tenure, law enforcement officers fabricated and opened several hundred criminal cases, but there was not a single court verdict.
“The people who are now using the dirtiest methods to destroy us have been lying for almost 10 years! Fabricating cases and doing stupid things – while eating billions of taxpayers and hiding from the front under booking. But where is at least one court verdict? Let’s remember the year 2020, when the same game happened before the elections, and when 300 (!!!) criminal cases were opened against the mayor’s office. And the result was zero!!!” emphasized the mayor of Dnipro.

An outlandish question perhaps, but will Ukraine even survive as a coherent entity such that some kind of settlement is achievable?
Who’s in charge?

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Oct 9 2024 20:54 utc | 251

Odessa was only founded in 1794 so you are off at your time line.
Posted by: canuck | Oct 9 2024 12:04 utc | 207

While I’m pretty sure 1794 is within the 18th-c, the trading city on the Danube Estuary called Odessa predates its current name by centuries, as its catacombs attest.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/odessa-catacombs-0012458
Posted by: too scents | Oct 9 2024 12:34 utc | 212
yes the Black Paths (small paths that the Peasants would use coming to the Black Sea) have existed since the Greeks colonized the Black Sea-2,700 yers ago. Catherine just formalized it and invested, bigly, in the old Black Paths…

Posted by: canuck | Oct 9 2024 20:57 utc | 253

“A civil government of Ukraine which wants to engage in serious peace negotiations will first have to neutralize those radical forces. Without that it will have little chance to survive their onslaught.”
Solution: Anonymously call in Der Nazis’ coordinates to the Kremlin from a burner phone 🙂

Posted by: nwwoods | Oct 9 2024 21:00 utc | 254

“The very fact that Ukrainians [post 1991] did not turn their weapons against their own elite and then against NATO is a gigantic loss for Russia”. @1917
Yes, it’s a resultant loss of intentional US meddling plus, inadvertently, a docile new RF. Perhaps THAT was one reason why the 2014 Maidan came about — to prempt and/or stall any chance of any swing in that direction (uprising or civil war). Surely most Ukrainians sensed their growing corruption and degradation post independence? The best tactic to unite a country is to hide domestic dissent through a war against some “domineering neighbor” with a bunch of their “secessionist ethnics” in your east. Gotta say, it worked.

Posted by: Not-a-troll | Oct 9 2024 22:36 utc | 255

Before Izz starts its air move against Iran it is time for Iran to drop the other shoe on all izzy airfields, remove air refueling tankers, AWACS out of the sky in the Persian Gulf, iraq, etc. and take out the Cyprus UK air base.
Sweep the feet from under the Izzy response in 12 hyper minutes, no warnings. Have Hezzy and Ansar Allah join in. Why wait to get hit? Why not stop the Izzy bombing of the Levant and Iran and Yemen?

Posted by: Jonny Law | Oct 9 2024 23:25 utc | 256

too scents | Oct 9 2024 12:34 utc | 212
Did you read your article?
“The Odessa catacombs are a very complicated system of natural tunnels, mines, bunkers, and caves that are predominantly a result of mining – with the earliest excavations beginning in the 19th century.”

Posted by: Rhymerez | Oct 10 2024 4:27 utc | 257

@Rhymerez | Thu, 10 Oct 2024 04:27:00 GMT | 262
Yeah, ole two scents has some trouble with dates, reading comprehension, economic terms….
Here’s from later in the same article: “Either way, the main portion of these catacombs was begun in earnest in the 19th century and onwards, with stone being quarried to be used in the building of the houses of the city above.”

Posted by: James M. | Oct 10 2024 5:34 utc | 258

Who’s in charge?
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Oct 9 2024 20:54 utc | 256
The money printer. What the smo showed is that training and weapons quality are not important. fighting Gerasimov and his medieval team is easy. Money and zombies is all you need to turn any country in a third world country. In Russia’s case, they are as suicidal as Ukros. Their shit smo doing nothing after three years, only going deeper into third world. With such “enemies” and slaves in EU, everything is easy for US

Posted by: rk | Oct 10 2024 6:46 utc | 259

Throwing money at problems is the most inefficient way of not solving problems.
The best proof is Rammstein meeting was canceled : why bother to meet when nothing you can decide will change the course of events ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtp-_mf2NKE&list=OLAK5uy_mEBLZxdH9DZMawP2gkj0RwXVyBS4GfdMY

Posted by: Savonarole | Oct 10 2024 10:48 utc | 260

Posted by: Outraged | Oct 8 2024 18:49 utc | 59
Good post. This only scratches the surface, and is doubtless symptomatic of the whole of NATO countries (and ironically, the US is the “best” militarily of all NATO). Not to worry. With the second instalment due in ten to fifteen years, there is plenty of time to recover. Of course, Russia will wait for the catch-up. Ho-fuckin’-ho.

Posted by: horseguards | Oct 10 2024 18:17 utc | 261

Posted by: Sun Of Alabama | Oct 8 2024 19:07 utc | 64
If the US can’t sell new paper to finance its new spending/deficit it will be up the creek.

Posted by: horseguards | Oct 10 2024 18:28 utc | 262

Posted by: Monos | Oct 8 2024 19:20 utc | 70
“contains eighty percent of Ukraine’s pre-war GDP” which will be expanded and exploited more economically in due course.

Posted by: horseguards | Oct 10 2024 18:32 utc | 263

Who to listen to?
1917 or Arestovich?

⚡️🇺🇦Former Zelensky adviser Arestovich:
“When will power collapse in Russia? It will never collapse. You see, in Russia now, despite the sanctions and the protracted war, there are all the conditions for a normal life. And there are certainly more freedoms there than in the concentration camp named after Vladimir Zelensky.
And if I were a Russian, I would carry Putin in my arms. Even so: I would make his birthday a day off and declare it a national holiday. So don’t even hope for a coup – that’s stupid.”

*video source*

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 10 2024 22:07 utc | 264

“Who’s in charge?”
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Oct 9 2024 20:54 utc | 256
The money printer. What the smo showed is that training and weapons quality are not important. fighting Gerasimov and his medieval team is easy. Money and zombies is all you need to turn any country in a third world country. In Russia’s case, they are as suicidal as Ukros. Their shit smo doing nothing after three years, only going deeper into third world. With such “enemies” and slaves in EU, everything is easy for US
Posted by: rk | Oct 10 2024 6:46 utc | 264
You, obviously, don’t understand US ‘money printing”.
The US 10 year, the most traded bond in the known universe, is the tell tale of US dollar strength/weakness.
Last month the Fed dropped the interest rate by a whopping 50 points (5.5% to 5%) YET today the 10 year bond sunk to 4.1 % today.(Bonds trade inversely to their interest rate-ie bonds go down, interest rate goes up)in the opposite direction.
Hence, for the Fed/US to print money it is too expensive at the present yield and if QE if is brought back in, (which is the formal name of money printing) the bond market implodes as foreigner buyers would back right off (as they are doing now) even more because of the immense dilution..
This idea is easily confirmed by the price of gold-it is up 40% in a year.
US is on its last legs to fund wars-Russia, China know it and they would rather just wait it out till US goes bankrupt and implodes but the neo cons know this and are becoming more desperate so WW3 is probably on the menu if they have their way.
You, unfortunately, are solidly stuck in a 2008-2012 economic playbook: history has since moved on while your idea has been freeze framed.

Posted by: canuck | Oct 11 2024 9:52 utc | 265

There are fanatic and reckless elements in Ukraine and among their sponsors that won’t quit until the Russians grind Kiev itself into a fine powder. Those who live by the sword etc

Posted by: T J Foster | Oct 14 2024 3:30 utc | 266