Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 21, 2024
Ukraine – Zelinski’s ‘Victory Plan’ Charade

On August 27 the former president of Ukraine Vladimir Zelenski announced that he would soon present a plan for ending the war with Russia:

kraine's Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Tuesday that the war with Russia would eventually end in dialogue, but that Kyiv had to be in a strong position and that he would present a plan to U.S. President Joe Biden and his two potential successors.

The Ukrainian leader, addressing a news conference, said Kyiv's three-week-old incursion into Russia's Kursk region was part of that plan, but that it also comprised other steps on the economic and diplomatic fronts.

"The main point of this plan is to force Russia to end the war. And I want that very much – (that it would be) fair for Ukraine," he told reporters in Kyiv of the war launched by Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022.

Zelenskiy said he hoped to go to the United States in September to attend the U.N. General Assembly in New York and that he was preparing to meet Biden.

The plan will also be presented to the presidential candidates Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.

It is believed that this announcement came in response to a silent request by Ukraine's supporters for a longer term perspective.

Details of the plan have since leaked bit by bit:

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has revealed a new detail about the victory plan he plans to present to US President Joe Biden next week.

"Decisions regarding the plan mostly depend on him [Biden – ed.]. They depend on other allies too, but there are points that depend on positive will and support from the United States. I really hope he will back this plan," Zelenskyy said.

"This plan is based on decisions which would need to be adopted within the period from October to December… Then the plan will work, we think," he said.

Earlier, Zelenskyy revealed that the plan consists of four points to increase Ukraine's defence capability, "plus another one that we’ll need after the war".

The 'victory plan' is not about a real plan for Ukraine's action but a list of demands towards the 'western' supporters of Ukraine.

The theory in Kiev is that a fulfillment of these demands will allow Ukraine to win the war and to press Russian into accepting Ukraine's 10 point 'peace plan'.

As explained by a Zelinski advisor:

A source close to Zelensky told the Kyiv Independent that the "victory plan" aims "to create such conditions and such an atmosphere that Russia will no longer be able to ignore the peace formula and the peace summit."

"The problem is, to get to that point where we have any sort of peace negotiations, Russia must feel like they're going to lose, and we are not there yet," Rep. Jimmy Panetta, a Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee in Congress, told the Kyiv Independent.

"I hope part of this victory plan is how we can shape battlefield conditions to reach that point," said Panetta, who met Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials in Kyiv last weekend.

From other reporting we know that Zelenski's 'victory plan' demands include:

  • to allow unrestricted long range missile strikes into Russia
  • to invite Ukraine in the borders of 1991 to join NATO at a nearby date
  • to immediately negotiate and accept Ukraine's membership in the the European Union
  • to permanently supply advanced heavy weapons to Ukraine
  • to provide additional hundreds of billions of dollars for 'reconstruction' without any restrictions attached to it

The 'victory plan' requests are of course outrageous and delusional and have little to no chance to be fulfilled.

Zelenski's opposition in Ukraine is therefore convinced that the plan was formulated to get rejected. The refusal of the plan would be used by Zelenski to then justify peace negotiations with Russia (machine translation):

President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky will pass on his "victory plan" to the United States in order to get a refusal and then start negotiations with Russia.

This opinion was expressed by former Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko.

According to Lutsenko, that is why the Ukrainian government constantly blames the allies for the situation at the front.

"The entire propaganda machine of the President's Office constantly hammers into the heads of Ukrainians that we have problems only because the United States does not want to give us permission for long – range missiles Jassm, Atacms, Storm shadow / Scalp," the ex-prosecutor general wrote.

Zelenski's, not Ukraine's, real victory plan would thus go like this:

According to Lutsenko, Zelensky act according to this plan:

  1. We are submitting a new mega-list of requirements for weapons and money to the United States.
  2. We have polite doubts that this will change the course of the war and lead us to the borders of 1991.
  3. We declare that we have been abandoned and have no other choice but to return to the World Forums with the participation of Russia.
  4. During the negotiations, we receive demands from Putin in the style of Istanbul.
  5. We declare that this is the subject of a referendum and that a ceasefire is necessary for this.
  6. We sign a cease-fire.
  7. We pose as the president of the world and hold presidential elections. Preferably – without lifting martial law, so that democracy does not interfere, and the military recruitment offices can manage the polling stations.

Lutsenko called it a "cynical show" that " is easily read by both ukrpolitikum and our allies."

Zelenski's real plan, as listed by Lutsenko, sounds nifty and would probably work in a normal state. But Ukraine is a state in which a small minority of well armed and ruthless fascists have control over all major political decisions. They are adamant against any negotiations with, or concessions to Russia and have threatened to overthrow any government that would try to go that way.

It is hard to see how Zelenski can get convince those men to agree with his plans.

Comments

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 18:59 utc | 96
################
You’re truly clueless if you think TikTok is run by the Chinese government.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 19:05 utc | 101

” Like everyone else, I’m just speculating here, but if Russia follows its well-established pattern, it will build an iron-clad case against everyone involved in the strikes into Russia, present it to the UN and demand that the perps be punished, and when no action is taken, will have a clear case to attack the perps without them having any standing to invoke NATO Article V or involve the UN politically or as ‘peace keepers’.
Posted by: Honzo | Sep 21 2024 17:36 utc | 63 ”
Why didnt Russia follow this ” well established pattern ” in 2022 instead of a surprise invasion ? Why didnt they present their ” iron clad to the UN” then ? You say its a well established pattern after all. Isnt it ?

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:06 utc | 102

I think most people refuse to believe that the British Government (recent & present) are cowardly morons. Most people outside the UK cannot believe that the bulk of the British viewers follow the lyin’ BBC line hook, line & sinker, and that British Intelligence has been bought & paid for by Washington since Blair first got in.
If the British people ever wake up to the fact that Putin was only ever trying to save Russian speakers in the easy of Ukraine, London will collapse.

Posted by: Wally Jumblatt | Sep 21 2024 19:13 utc | 103

” You’re truly clueless if you think TikTok is run by the Chinese government.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 19:05 utc | 101 ”
Not directly run as far as we know, however, compare Tic Tok content in China to whats allowed in the west on Tic Tok. Seems like someone actually does have great influence over said company. Besides,if your assertion is true, why did Tik Toc follow US dictates ? The US only has 350 million people and most dont use the service. Why would it matter to Tik toc if they get banned from the US market as they have China and the rest of the world to operate in ? Basically, China caved once again.

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:16 utc | 104

“The Russian position which puzzles so many observers is a reflection of the very fragile political coalition, ranging from former Red Army hawks through obscenely powerful (criminal) and wealthy oligarchs to neo-liberal ideologues trained in the US, which Putin’s political genius has cobbled together to rebuild Russian sovereignty.” bevin@75
This explains very clearly why the later call for a revolutionary policy in supporting the Ukrainian masses (which inevitably includes socialists and communists) isn’t going to happen, because that’s not what Russia is. Red Army hawks are not Communists (remember Tukhachevsky.) Also, this comment generally is unclear about how the fascists in Ukraine are part of the same international fascist movement ensconced in NATO. Fascism and imperialism go together. The demand the Ukrainian people start a war with NATO (which is exactly what it’s saying) is quite extreme. That doesn’t take into account the experience of defeat and years of fascist rule. What might have been possible in 2014 isn’t possible any more. Putin didn’t care about the threat of fascism then, it’s far too late now to call on Ukrainian allies.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Sep 21 2024 19:20 utc | 105

Posted by: Night Tripper | Sep 21 2024 18:25 utc | 83
My wife is a Woolyback – Not Scouse, and the home she was born and grew up in is most definitely still standing, cos the woolybacks are squabbling amongst themselves about who of the three of them, actually want to live there.
Whilst the home I was born up and grew in Oldham, is not only still there, but looks a lot better than it did when I was – there – but why did you cut down The Sycamore Tree, and our Pretty Garden – and Park what looks like a Tesla there.
Meanwhile our son, told us, our home in South East London, where he and is Sister were Born and Grew up is Gone.
They have Totally Demolished it. Its Now Going to be a Tower Block of Flats
it kind of did our heads in…They are turning Our Beautiful home and Garden – where we all grew up in – a happy family and cats into a BLOCK of FLATS

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 19:23 utc | 106

It’s going to take Russia at least 6 months to push the Ukrainian forces out of Kursk at this rate. So much for people here saying they’d be pushed out in 48-72 hours.

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 21 2024 19:32 utc | 107

@ Bemildred | Sep 21 2024 18:32 utc | 87
yes, politicians as salespeople for corporations… it isn’t working out, is it? a leadership vacuum in spades in the west… cheers..

Posted by: james | Sep 21 2024 19:40 utc | 108

Russia’s red lines. Snicker, snicker
” Question (retranslated from Arabic): At what level are relations between Israel and the Russian Federation today?
Sergey Lavrov: Personally, I have good relations with many of my Israeli colleagues, including former ones. When speaking about the Middle East policy, President Vladimir Putin highlights Russia’s full commitment to security and fundamental interests of the State of Israel.
We always stress in all our actions that no solutions are going to be viable if they fail to ensure Israel’s security, among other things, but not at the expense of the security of others. ”
——————————————
” Question (retranslated from Arabic): There is a question in the context of references to Russia’s use of nuclear weapons. We know about the Russian Federation’s doctrine in this sphere. Each time the “red lines” are crossed, the question arises as to where they really lie in the context of nuclear weapons?
Sergey Lavrov: We talk about the “red lines” in the hope that our assessments and statements will be heard by clever decision-makers. It is silly to say that we will push the red button, if tomorrow you fail to do as I demand.
I am confident that the decision-makers are aware of what we mean in these situations. No one wants a nuclear war. We said this time and again.
Let me assure you that we have weapons whose use will involve grave consequences for the masters of the Ukrainian regime. These weapons are available and on full alert status. ”

” Question (retranslated from Arabic): I would like to discuss the Middle East – the developments there and specifically the West’s involvement. There is much talk today of [Russia’s] strategic partnership with the Iranians. News reports say that Russia has received missiles from Iran and that Russia, in turn, extends nuclear technologies to that country. This is being written and talked about. What is your reply to these charges?
Sergey Lavrov: They say the same about the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Approximately the same. We interact with Iran, North Korea, or any other country economically, politically and in the military-technical sphere strictly within the framework of international law, violating none of our international commitments. It means nothing, if the United States invents ten tall tales per day, accusing us of all mortal sins. Or rather, it means just one thing: they don’t like Russia as a rival in the international arena.
Let me emphasise once again that in relations with Iran or any other country we do not violate any rules of international law, including those that regulate military-technical cooperation. ”
———————————————
Sergey Lavrov: What is happening between Palestine and Israel is shocking. Experts struggle to recall a tragedy or humanitarian catastrophe like this. I emphasise that it will be a year soon. Several months ago, statistics were published in the West, which revealed that in the ten months since the start of the Israeli operation, twenty times more Palestinian civilians died than in the ten years of the war in Donbass after the coup d’etat in 2014. In Donbass, both sides were counted: people who live in Donbass and those who remained in the territory controlled by the Kiev regime. Twenty times more people died in ten months than in ten years.
The terrorist attack that took place on October 7, 2023, was outrageous. All sensible people condemn it. However, it is unacceptable to respond to a crime with another crime, especially through the prohibited method of collective punishment of civilians.
You mentioned the void when speaking about the US policy in the region. When the terrorist attack occurred on October 7, 2023, and Israel began its brutal operation, UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said in his remarks at the General Assembly that he condemned the terrorist attack ”
——————————–
” Question (retranslated from Arabic): My last question concerns Lebanon. The Russian Foreign Ministry has issued a statement regarding the latest developments in Lebanon – that is, the explosions of pagers aimed at Hezbollah members. This is an escalation. Since you and President Vladimir Putin maintain contact with all parties to the conflict, how do you assess this situation?
Sergey Lavrov: We are against any escalation. Unfortunately, there are those seeking to heat it up to the maximum, in particular, to provoke the US Armed Forces’ interference in the region. This is totally obvious. Just recall the assassination of Ismail Haniyeh during the funeral ceremony for President Ibrahim Raisi in the capital of the Islamic Republic of Iran. I cannot imagine anything more cynical. I appreciate the fact that the Islamic Republic of Iran did not have a breakdown, as they say, or slide into full-scale response military actions. They counted that Iran would do something that would make the United States’ armed forces interfere in the situation. ”
—————————–
https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1970551/

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:50 utc | 109

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:16 utc | 104
#########
I love the desperation in your postings. Must be all of the defeats affecting you. LOL
Buckle up, it’s going to get a lot worse for your Nazi allies next month.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 19:50 utc | 110

@ steven t johnson | Sep 21 2024 19:20 utc | 105
there are much bigger possibilities today then there were in 2014 – both good and bad… that is always the way it is.. do some focus on spilled milk, or on the greater possibilities here?? my thinking is those focused in the present stand the best chance for the future..

Posted by: james | Sep 21 2024 19:50 utc | 111

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 21 2024 19:32 utc | 107
“It’s going to take Russia at least 6 months to push the Ukrainian forces out of Kursk at this rate”
A bit like The War of The Roses…It was us Lancashire People VS Yorkshire People – and we all spoke the same language (English) and no one could tell the difference in accents , except the Scousers who were on our side.
The Wars of the Roses (22 May 1455-16 June 1487) was a series of English civil wars for control of the throne of England fought between Lancashire Peasants and Yorkshire Peasants
and the King did turn up – Sir Shagalot
I reckon we got bored with us yorkshire and lancashire boys killing each other for sake of some fcking king raping our sisters
We just told him to Go Away – and don’t bring your Soft Southern Pussies up North again
Even The Scottish were on our side.

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 19:51 utc | 112

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 21 2024 19:32 utc | 107
#######
Will Ukraine exist in 6 months? What is the plan to heat homes this winter?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 19:53 utc | 113

Dima says that Ukraine destroyed another Russia ammo depot with NATO long range cruise missiles.
Some Russian ammo depots are not defended at all.
We are watching Russian defeat live, as soon n. weapons will follow.
This is a part of Ukrainian peace plan- attacks deep in Russia.
So, those analysts who concluded that The West retreated a bit were not right,
As I said, the West would never step back. Even 100s of millions of dead would not be a problem for them.

Posted by: vargas | Sep 21 2024 19:53 utc | 114

” I love the desperation in your postings. Must be all of the defeats affecting you. LOL
Buckle up, it’s going to get a lot worse for your Nazi allies next month.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 19:50 utc | 110 ”
So many words and not one of my points addressed. Soon the US congress will rule on whether it will ban Tic Tok, my prediction is that it will, even after the Chinese grabbed their ankles. Are you A.I. because your non-response response is weird .

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:54 utc | 115

@ Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:54 utc | 115
of course ”the usa” will ban tiktok…. this is what liberal fascist states do! they ban and censor what they can’t control!!
our poster roger boyd has an article up on much the same topic – https://rogerboyd.substack.com/p/et-tu-amazon

Posted by: james | Sep 21 2024 20:00 utc | 116

” of course ”the usa” will ban tiktok…. this is what liberal fascist states do! they ban and censor what they can’t control!!
Posted by: james | Sep 21 2024 20:00 utc | 116 ”
As much as I agree with you, what would you call China as it does the same things ? Lets be fair now.

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:03 utc | 117

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:54 utc | 115
“Soon the US congress will rule on whether it will ban Tic Tok”
Oh dear. Its me who watches Tic Tok, not our Grandkids
May I refer you to George Galloway, who was summoned by the US congress. Turned up And Told Them, Exactly what he Thought of Them.
Might be Scottish – but that was Class

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 20:05 utc | 118

Posted by: vargas | Sep 21 2024 19:53 utc | 114
I dont’ know if you are a troll or not…But it is so obvious: Nato is bombing Russian Land. It is Nato from A-Z, I am not even sure that Ukrainians are pushing the buttons…ZERO RESPONSE by the Russian Federation…As I mentioned yesterday, it is all about KAZAN, it is so obvious. And today on a Chinese TV station, which I can watch for me unclear reasons in Berlin, they talked about Kazan and asked the question, if it would be a good idea to hold the summit under the current circumstances. It hat begun, that is all you need to know.

Posted by: Larsbo | Sep 21 2024 20:06 utc | 119

“But Ukraine is a state in which a small minority of well armed and ruthless fascists have control over all major political decisions.”
Over the course of these almost three years, many of the UkroNazis have died in combat. I wonder if the Bankova Nazis have lost their base, or enough of their base to render them powerless.

Posted by: Tedder | Sep 21 2024 20:06 utc | 120

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:54 utc | 115
##########
Increasingly the world cares less and less what the US Congress does. The authority of a bunch of Zionist puppets scares no one after the Yemenis chased aircraft carriers away.
Keine antwort ist auch eine antwort.
That I don’t address your “points” is a message.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 20:07 utc | 121

Ukraine’s current plan seems to be being nuked. Recent attacks on Russian ammunition depos and claims that also Sarmat bases were hit can be only interpreted that way.
OK, Ukrainian regime wants Ukraine get nuked. But why? The naive reason is that this would make NATO enter the war and thus Ukraine win. But this cannot be true. If e.g. tunnels in Western Ukraine were hit, NATO would probably rather end the war. Sending troops into Western Ukraine would mean contaminating them. Attacking Russians in Eastern Ukraine would be pointless. Nuking Eastern Ukraine would mean giving it up. Attacking Russia would mean WWIII.
So why wants Ukrainian regime Ukraine nuked? I suspect the BRICS meeting end of October. Ukrainian regine or rather its puppeteers want this meeting canceled which would be the case if Russia uses nuclear weapons. So I expect further provocations. Though not as grave ones that everyone of Russias allies would agree that nukes are the only remaining mean.

Posted by: xblob | Sep 21 2024 20:10 utc | 122

Enjoy Boris Johnsons complete insane appeal for 500 billion to 1 trillion $ for Ukraine to beat and destroy Russia:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-time-to-let-ukraine-join-nato/

Posted by: Heraklit | Sep 21 2024 20:14 utc | 123

Why didnt Russia follow this ” well established pattern ” in 2022 instead of a surprise invasion ?

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:06 utc | 102
I see the Kernel Comedian* is back, displaying yet more woeful ignorance. How’s your Ring-0?
It doesn’t take much search to find references to frequent to-and-fro between Russia and the UN all through 2021, leading up to the SMO. DYODD.
*Could almost be a Boy George song…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:18 utc | 124

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:03 utc | 117
Thanks for reminding me about the basis of almost all Religions on our Lovely Planet Earth.
I asked my wife how to Spell it
autumn equinox
Sun, 22 Sept 2024, 1:43 pm
United Kingdom Time

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 20:22 utc | 125

May I refer you to George Galloway, who was summoned by the US congress. Turned up And Told Them, Exactly what he Thought of Them.
Might be Scottish – but that was Class
Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 20:05 utc | 118
==================================================
That is well-worth watching.
Google: George Galloway; Senate Sub Committee; Iraq War
It’s political theatre at its best.

Posted by: Engineer-John | Sep 21 2024 20:25 utc | 126

@123 heraklit
Re: Doris Johnson and ukraine Nato
It’s pretty telling that a victorious future ukraine can and will pay everything back. That was a selling point for the 2003 iraq war.
Well that definitely didn’t work out. I don’t recall iraq cutting any cheque’s or even being anything other than an unstable sinkhole of violence.
I know the oil companies made out nicely but they don’t have to and won’t share their profits.
So probably that his idea. At least Blackrock will get another trillion.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Sep 21 2024 20:28 utc | 127

of course ”the usa” will ban tiktok…. this is what liberal fascist states do! they ban and censor what they can’t control!!
Posted by: james | Sep 21 2024 20:00 utc | 116
Doesn’t this blog do the same thing?

Posted by: hypocrite | Sep 21 2024 20:29 utc | 128

” which would be the case if Russia uses nuclear weapons.
Posted by: xblob | Sep 21 2024 20:10 utc | 122 ”
” Question (retranslated from Arabic): There is a question in the context of references to Russia’s use of nuclear weapons. We know about the Russian Federation’s doctrine in this sphere. Each time the “red lines” are crossed, the question arises as to where they really lie in the context of nuclear weapons?
Sergey Lavrov: We talk about the “red lines” in the hope that our assessments and statements will be heard by clever decision-makers. It is silly to say that we will push the red button, if tomorrow you fail to do as I demand.
I am confident that the decision-makers are aware of what we mean in these situations. No one wants a nuclear war. We said this time and again. ”

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:29 utc | 129

” It doesn’t take much search to find references to frequent to-and-fro between Russia and the UN all through 2021, leading up to the SMO. DYODD.
*Could almost be a Boy George song…
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:18 utc | 124 ”
I see you didnt read the original comment I was responding to, therefore, you dont warrant a response.

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:31 utc | 130

Harvest Time

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 20:31 utc | 131

Not much more to be said on this thread. I was recently reminded by one of my subscribers of the Soviet Dissident, intellectually powerful philosopher and writer, Alexander Zinoviev whose writings I’ve been examining and will begin to share with readers at the Gym. The first item is “Resurrecting Zinoviev’s Westernism”, which is built around a 1999 interview. People will ask, Why is a 25-year-old interview so important along with a man who’s been dead for almost 20 years? Because the ideas he proposed have been proven by events to largely be correct along with his previous predictions about the USSR’s fall. AND those ideas have very likely found a receptive audience within the Kremlin and Russia as a whole. Most will agree those are important reasons.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 21 2024 20:31 utc | 132

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:31 utc | 130
Reading all the way through, still didn’t make your comment any less bizarre, in the context of the post you were responding to.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:34 utc | 133

Posted by: Heraklit | Sep 21 2024 20:14 utc | 123
From the creators of “The Dardanelles Campaign” and “Operation Market-Garden” we present “The Bombing of Russia”.

Posted by: Roberto | Sep 21 2024 20:35 utc | 134

Neglect of Russia’s interests makes lasting settlement in Ukraine impossible — MFA
MOSCOW, September 21. /TASS/. A just and lasting settlement of the Ukrainian conflict will be impossible without taking into account Russia’s interests, Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said in a commentary uploaded to the ministry’s website.
“It is impossible to achieve a fair and lasting settlement without Russia and taking into account its interests,” Zakharova stated. “But Kiev and the West do not care about peace. They need war.”
“The Ukrainian military’s bandit incursion into the Kursk Region and Zelensky’s requests for permission to strike deep into Russia with long-range NATO weapons are proof of this. This is a continuation of terror against the people of our country. We will not negotiate with terrorists,” Zakharova stated.
Manifestation of cheating
In the wake of a remark by Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, whose powers expired in May, to the effect that a second summit on Ukraine might be held in November with Russian representatives present, Zakharova said: “Statements by ‘overdue’ Zelensky are wishful thinking.” She explained that Russian representatives “have not participated in any meetings within the framework of the ‘Buergenstock process’ and are not going to participate in any.”
“This process has nothing to do with a settlement. It is yet another manifestation of cheating by the Anglo-Saxons and their Ukrainian puppets. The so-called second summit pursues the same aim – to push through an absolutely unviable ‘Zelensky formula’ as an alternative basis for resolving the conflict, to achieve support for it by the world majority and on its behalf to address Russia with an ultimatum of capitulation,” Zakharova said.
She reiterated that Russia would not participate in any such “summits”. At the same time, Russia is not giving up on a political and diplomatic settlement of the crisis.
“We are ready to discuss really serious proposals that take into account the situation ‘on the ground,’ and the emerging geopolitical realities and the relevant initiative formulated by President Vladimir Putin on June 14,” she concluded.

https://tass.com/politics/1846157

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:44 utc | 135

” Reading all the way through, still didn’t make your comment any less bizarre, in the context of the post you were responding to.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:34 utc | 133 ”
I see you have reading comprehension issues so let me present the original comment I was referring to. Enjoy.
” it will build an iron-clad case against everyone involved in the strikes into Russia, present it to the UN and demand that the perps be punished, and when no action is taken, will have a clear case to attack the perps without them having any standing to invoke NATO Article V or involve the UN politically or as ‘peace keepers’.
Posted by: Honzo | Sep 21 2024 17:36 utc | 63 ” ”

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:46 utc | 136

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 20:46 utc | 136
Uh-huh, to which you responded:

Why didnt Russia follow this ” well established pattern ” in 2022 instead of a surprise invasion ? Why didnt they present their ” iron clad to the UN” then ? You say its a well established pattern after all. Isnt it ?

To which I pointed out that there is plenty of evidence for the “well established pattern”, if you care to look for it.
Not me with the comprehension sequencing difficulties.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:51 utc | 137

Posted by: The Kaker | Sep 21 2024 20:49 utc | 137
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
The only way to pay that off is to seize Russia’s natural resources and China’s productive capacity. Good luck…

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 21:06 utc | 138

@The Kacker | #137
LOL

Posted by: Apollyon | Sep 21 2024 21:23 utc | 139

” To which I pointed out that there is plenty of evidence for the “well established pattern”, if you care to look for it.
Not me with the comprehension sequencing difficulties.
Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 20:51 utc | 138 ”
Do tell, when did Russia formally present a public, iron clad case against Ukraine at the UN ? When did Russia formally demand action be taken by the UN or Russia would invade ?

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 21:27 utc | 140

As you watch the following video remember that Russia and China wont even mention the name of the perpetrator. All the tallk of BRICS and a global south falls flat after said realization.
https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/166/454/632/playable/71c53213fff69e99.mp4

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 21:28 utc | 141

Posted by: jayc | Sep 21 2024 17:22 utc | 58
Sorry for being OT, but your comment remonded me of the following exchange from the characters of Red Dwarf, and I needed something to laugh about:
“Cat:
Okay. I say let’s get into the jet-powered rocket pants and junior birdman the hell out of here!
Kryten:
An excellent and inventive suggestion, sir, with just two tiny drawbacks: a) We don’t have any jet-powered rocket pants; and b) there’s no such thing as jet-powered rocket pants outside the fictional serial “Robbie Rocket Pants.”
Cat:
Well, that’s put a crimp on an otherwise damn fine plan.”
Regards.

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Sep 21 2024 21:29 utc | 142

Moonie @ 96, Karl @ 97:
Tiktok is run by a private company called Bytedance. ByteDance may have been founded by Chinese individuals in Beijing, and be based mainly in Beijing, but as far as I have been able to discover, the company is also incorporated in the Cayman Islands.
What Tiktok does in China may be unrelated to what it does overseas. Like all other companies, no matter where their head offices are located, that operate in different countries, Tiktok will have subsidiary offices staffed by locally employed people whose work includes following and adhering to local laws and regulations. What Tiktok does in the US is entirely up to Tiktok’s US office and its managers, of whom several should be mindful of US legislation affecting Tiktok’s operations and the social media industry generally.
What is most surprising to me is to see MoA barflies assuming that every Chinese company or every Chinese-owned company is some extension of the Chinese govt or the CPC. Chinese companies operating in overseas nations are subject to those nations’ laws; they are not operating on behalf of Beijing or as fronts or shell companies for Chinese intelligence. I should think that ByteDance’s connections in the Cayman Islands should be raising more concern among barflies here.
Significantly Maria Zakharova or the Russian Foreign Ministry didn’t seem all that fussed over relations between Beijing and Moscow in noting Tiktok’s strike-down of RT, Sputnik and other Russian-based social media accounts on its platforms.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Sep 21 2024 21:31 utc | 143

Old Microbiologist | Sep 21 2024 14:59 utc | 5
I have mused on the same… how do they all make uneventful 5 (or is it 7 hour) trips to Kiev ?
As a long suffering commuter, my 60m trip was routinely disrupted by the merest incident. Rain?= delay. Heat?= delay. Signal box sneeze?= delay.
My father used to observe. “If a camel train breaks down in Afghanistan, they cancel the train on our outer-suburban line” . Anything anywhere anytime caused a train delay.
But travel across Ukraine during a sloSMO, with electricity and diesel constraints. Not. A. Problem.
The mysteries of the sloSMO.
People here say: “If the Russians bomb the tracks, (or a signal box) the Ukrainians will just repair it”.
Can I then suggest sending some Australian rail workers to “help”?
Guarantee the line won’t be repaired in under a decade.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Sep 21 2024 21:38 utc | 144

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 21:27 utc | 141
DYODD.
Not going to waste my time spoon-feeding someone who gets their IT knowledge from the Daily Express and then posts more flannel as they wallow around in an ever-deepening quagmire of ignorance.

Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Sep 21 2024 21:42 utc | 145

NATO pigs are not leaving Kursk.
Address that.
Once again, this very moment, the Moscow region is under attack. Address that.
Posted by: The Kaker | Sep 21 2024 20:49 utc | 137
########
Who cares?

September 2️⃣1️⃣. Key updates:
▪️On the night of 21 September, the Russian armed forces launched a group strike against energy facilities supplying Ukraine’s military-industrial complex, the Russian defence ministry said in a statement;
▪️Kiev’s losses during the day totalled up to 2,150 people, the ministry added;
▪️Two missile and artillery weapons depots were destroyed and a dry cargo ship carrying missiles and ammunition supplied to the Kiev regime by Western countries was hit, it said;
▪️Air defence forces shot down six Neptune missiles, three Hammer bombs, 10 HIMARS shells and 177 Ukrainian drones, the defence ministry said;
▪️Russian forces foiled counter-attacks and repelled three attempts by the AFU to break through the border in the Kursk region, and struck Ukrainian troop concentration and reserve areas in the Sumy region;
▪️The AFU lost more than 300 servicemen, IFV, two armoured personnel carriers and six armoured vehicles, as well as six artillery pieces and HIMARS MLRS in the direction of Kursk, the Russian Defence Ministry said;
▪️Politico: The US is considering giving Kiev medium-range missiles for F-16 fighter jets in a new package to be announced Monday;
▪️Former AFU chief Zaluzhny confirms the death of his ex-assistant Aleksandr Nikityuk in Donbass.

The Nazis are going to attack, like the Israelis will rape. It is to be expected. Why do you get so worked up about expected things?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 21:45 utc | 146

Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 21:28 utc | 142
Because they are rightly terrified. All the BS talk on this forum that the US/Israel or NATO/The WEST are finished is just that, BS. No power on Earth can challenge the US, let alone all of NATO. The US just prints any amount of money it needs uses that to buy weapons, mercenaries, and bribes corrupt politicians into betraying their nation. No other country can just create unlimited money out of thin air.

Posted by: bored | Sep 21 2024 21:46 utc | 147

Macpott@37….de electrifying is impossible, lots clap with glee every time Russia tries to turn out the lights in 404. Here’s the thing, unless Russia plans on cutting every high power wire they will never, ever, turn off the AC/DC.
Most countries bordering 404 right now can and are back feeding power to the Ukie grid. If their Linesmen are any way near as good as ours, they live for outages, that’s there job, it’s fixable. Also missed by many, back up gensets abound, 150kw and up can power a lot, especially when cycled on and off for peak load.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Sep 21 2024 17:23 utc | 59
1. Linesmen? All government/union/private monopoly highly ossified, unmotivated. Let no power outage get repaired in a timely manner.
2. 150Kw Gen set? Single or 3 phase? If you only had a spare 100,000 of them, then you might be able to hammer a dent into the loss of the high voltage generation capacity melted out by Russian damage.
3. Tapping off the rest of Europe assumes windmills and solar gods are smiling on Ukey Nazis. I am certain the WEF/Brit long noses would be delighted to sleep in sleeping bags on a cold winter night so that Zelenski doesn’t have to put on an extra pair of wool socks.
4. Perhaps you are spending a bit too much time with the fairies?

Posted by: kupkee | Sep 21 2024 21:46 utc | 148

Do tell, when did Russia formally present a public, iron clad case against Ukraine at the UN ? When did Russia formally demand action be taken by the UN or Russia would invade ?
Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 21:27 utc | 141
###########
Who cares?
When has the US ever obeyed the UN? Even now, the US protects genocide and mass rape via the Security Council.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 21:47 utc | 149

Vargas @ 2:
I’m sure you’ll be cheering your own govt all the way when it cuts social welfare benefits to your parents and/or grandparents, and they are forced to live in freezing winter conditions or beg for food at soup kitchensor or out on the pavement, in order to scrape together millions to send to Ukraine.
Keep us all updated on how your govt and you and your fellow citizens are acting as one to support Ukraine. Are you planning to go there yet as a … medical aid worker?

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Sep 21 2024 21:50 utc | 150

As you watch the following video remember that Russia and China wont even mention the name of the perpetrator. All the tallk of BRICS and a global south falls flat after said realization.
Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 21:28 utc | 142
Just like that, huh? Quit polluting the thread and go canvas for Kamala, loonie. We come here to escape Imperialist bullshit.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 21 2024 21:54 utc | 151

The US just prints any amount of money it needs uses that to buy weapons, mercenaries, and bribes corrupt politicians into betraying their nation. No other country can just create unlimited money out of thin air.
Posted by: bored | Sep 21 2024 21:46 utc | 148
#########
That has already ended. I suspect it will become official in Kazan next month.
One cannot buy what does not exist. There aren’t factories to produce weapons for NATO, and soldiers cannot be “bought” with printed money.
The largest armies in the world by manpower.
China
Russia
India
USA
North Korea
Ukraine (LOL)
Pakistan
Iran
South Korea
Vietnam
I’ll remind you that North Korea is a Russian force now. If Russia goes to war, the DPRK will go to war with them.
Do you notice any European countries on there? Canada? Australia? France? Germany?
Can those printing presses stop Houthi drones? Any Congressional bills that can shoot down FAB bombs?

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 21 2024 21:56 utc | 152

Refinnejenna | Sep 21 2024 21:31 utc | 144
…barflies assuming that every Chinese company or every Chinese-owned company is some extension of the Chinese govt or the CPC
Because U$ corps operate that way?
Because of the U$ intel agencies backdoors into software, hardware and placement of assets and agents across the spectrum of media and business.
The U$ interprets the Chinese system as one of government/intel behind-the-scenes-ultimate-control because that’s the system they know and operate.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Sep 21 2024 21:59 utc | 153

Old Microbiologist @ 5, Melaleuca @ 145:
You are both assuming that President Zippy and his govt are still operating in Kiev? What if they are not?
Zippy and his circle of advisors all have backgrounds in drama and theatre production. Some if not most of the money thrown at them by the West could have been used to build a replica of Kiev or Bankova Street (like a Hollywood backlot) at least in Lvov or even in Poland. Zippy’s people will have access to and/or knowledge of technologies including software technologies to recreate Kiev down to the smallest details such as bus and tram routes and their timetable schedules. Collaboration with the British, with their knowledge and experience in creating and spreading propaganda through movie and TV dramas, makes this possibility even more likely. All that is needed to make this scenario tight is Western politicians’ ignorance about the world outside their own comfort zones.
I understand the border between southeast Poland and northwest Ukraine is open, and that Zippy had signed an agreement with Warsaw to open the border.
That way, there is no need for Western politicians to have to travel far into Ukraine by train or by car and risk being attacked by Russian missiles or even having to see the devastation caused by their decisions and agreements with Kiev.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Sep 21 2024 22:06 utc | 154

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Sep 21 2024 22:06 utc | 155
Right you are. Virtual Production

Posted by: lex talionis | Sep 21 2024 22:20 utc | 155

People seem to forget there are two tix toc’s ; one for the West (ie US) and one for everyone else. The one that kicked Russia media off was the US version, so this idea that China caved to the West is a nothing burger. Please try to keep up.

Posted by: drsmith | Sep 21 2024 22:23 utc | 156

Zelensky’s plans, official or hidden, will have no traction with Russia.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 21 2024 22:24 utc | 157

@ The Kaker | Sep 21 2024 20:49 utc | 137
“India is a horrible place. India should be nuked.”
Huh? How is that relevant to anything? Apart from the reprehensibility of suggesting that a whole country be “nuked,” indeed one containing a sixth of the world’s population. Talk about genocide and mass murder. How would you like it for yourself and your family to be “nuked”? Or maybe you would just as soon exterminate the whole human race?

Posted by: Cabe | Sep 21 2024 22:25 utc | 158

They were already working there, and so I tried to make friends 19 years old (EX University ) Manchester..now at ICL (West Gorton)…they were very polite and nice)
They all told me even the Girls
You will Never Pull…You look like Your Mum Dressed You at 6:00 am, and cooked Breakfast for You at 6:30 am
Go Go Go on your motorbike – You have got to Clock In before 7:00am to get your 17.5% Shift Allowance..After 7:00am its 15%…After 7:15 – you will be on Day Shift 9-5 and meet all The Management
None of them thought I stood a Chance, but I told her it will be OK – Probably took more Courage than meeting my Mum

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 22:25 utc | 159

I have been posting highly inflammatory statements of fact on nearly every You Tube Ukraine apologist video I can find (and there are a lot ! – here of late). What I notice is that nobody flames me or offers an angry reply as they once did ( Putin lover, blah, blah).
I also notice a distinct lack of Hasbara activity generally. It used to be automatic on military sites/Quora etc. It used to be predictable and ubiquitous.
Well, not anymore. Maybe that Israeli protest in favor of allowing sodomizing prisoners took the wind out of their sails. Ah, well, those things happen, huh?
In either case, I suspect that we are seeing a heavy full court press by MI6/CIA/Mossad in many headlines but a real sudden lack of enthusiasm by ordinary partisan folks. And that – could be interesting. I don’t think that ‘manifesting reality’ crap is gonna work.

Posted by: Eighthman | Sep 21 2024 22:27 utc | 160

@Refinnejenna | Sat, 21 Sep 2024 22:06:00 GMT | 155

You are both assuming that President Zippy and his govt are still operating in Kiev? What if they are not?

If they’re not, they won’t be in power for very long. Part of having an actual government is to have that government in place in the capital city of a nation-state. How many governments-in-exile last or have any relevance at all? None that I know of. The government exudes control of the territory and the people in it, and it can only do that if it has a real presence on that territory, preferably in the capital.

Posted by: James M. | Sep 21 2024 22:27 utc | 161

@The Kaker | Sat, 21 Sep 2024 20:49:00 GMT | 137

NATO pigs are not leaving Kursk.
Address that.

Not willingly, but they are being pushed out. Address that.

Posted by: James M. | Sep 21 2024 22:29 utc | 162

Lateral escalation would be cheapest, fasted and most effective way for Russia to deal with NATO interference.
Anti-ship missile systems supplied to Yemen.
Anti-Aircraft middle systems supplied to Syria, Iran and Cuba.
Advanced fighter aircraft to Iran and Cuba.
Small arms and night vision/ thermal sights to New Caledonia.
However; none of these will ever happen. Russia has reneged on every deal to supply Iran whenever the Zionists complained.
Only deduction from this; they too are owned by the Zionists.
Conclusion: Zionists are putting everyone against the other to be left as sole inheritors.

Posted by: Saag | Sep 21 2024 22:32 utc | 163

There have not been three ammo dumps hit in three days. It’s just the same one with the story recycled over and over again.
But let’s pretend it was – so what? Guess what’s easier to replace? Bombs, missles, rockets, shells ( which RUS is getting from China, Iran, and North Korea in spades ) or people? Oh, some of you have seem to forgotten about a RUS strike that some say killed and injured 1,000 plus people. One strike!
Russia doesn’t play the west’s game of showboating & grand gestures. They make calculated attacks for maximum damage.
All you Bevises need to settle down; The west could destroy twice as many ammo dumps is not going to change the fact UKies can’t get enough people to fight for them anymore nor can they stop the Russians from advancing.

Posted by: drsmith | Sep 21 2024 22:41 utc | 164

@Old Microbiologist | Sat, 21 Sep 2024 14:59:00 GMT | 5

I have had a question since this debacle began as to why Russia permits the trains carrying all the nefarious political scallywags into Kiev from Poland and back.

They are protected by diplomatic immunity as long as they are on diplomatic missions. If Russia does target them, then that opens up the possibility that Russian leadership and every Russian embassy, ambassador, or other diplomatic personnel around the world could be attacked in retaliation – a quid quo pro. War is hell, but there are certain lines that are not crossed by either side.

Posted by: James M. | Sep 21 2024 22:46 utc | 165

This is starting to look like UK will push things past the point of no return prior to the US election.
These strikes are the Brit ‘Ukie missile’. London ceasing to exist would be a good thing for mankind.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 21 2024 22:54 utc | 166

Posted by: The Kaker | Sep 21 2024 20:49 utc | 137
Hi shadowbanned. Welcome back. Did you enjoy your vacation?

Posted by: anonymous | Sep 21 2024 22:55 utc | 167

Tried scrolling through the thread but just fucking shit. Trolls and replies to trolls, swamping out the genuine comments.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 21 2024 23:01 utc | 168

Faddie kids, well i used to be one…So today, my wife could smell, I was cooking something really nice.(I hadn’t eaten anything all day)
I have said this all my life..you can’t beat a nice wife – when you are both hungry – and no kids about

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 23:14 utc | 169

Posted by: Jm | Sep 21 2024 23:04 utc | 170
Its not me me me. Tony expresses love and wisdom in every post. Neither of these things is off topic. Ever.

Posted by: Tannemhouser | Sep 21 2024 23:19 utc | 170

Posted by: Jm | Sep 21 2024 23:04 utc | 170
“Go away Tony,boring off topic me me me me”
I am merely suggesting there are alternatives to not do what we have been brainwashed to do…
Like say No. I am Not Going To War. I am going to try my Best, Work had, and Eventually Find a Nice Girlfriend, who I am so Proud of, that I introduce her to My Mum
What exactly is the big thing in your life Jm???
You like War?

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 23:27 utc | 171

Old Microbiologist @ 5, Melaleuca @ 145
I have had a question since this debacle began as to why Russia permits the trains carrying all the nefarious political scallywags into Kiev from Poland and back.
—————————————————————————-
They are protected by diplomatic immunity as long as they are on diplomatic missions. If Russia does target them, then that opens up the possibility that Russian leadership and every Russian embassy, ambassador, or other diplomatic personnel around the world could be attacked in retaliation – a quid quo pro. War is hell, but there are certain lines that are not crossed by either side.
Posted by: James M. | Sep 21 2024 22:46 utc | 166
I have been wondering, for quite a while, about the same thing as Old Microbiologist and Melaleuca.
I wonder if, rather than attacking the trains carrying diplomatic personnel, Russia were to attack the rail lines themselves, this would result in the same sort of retaliation that James M. contemplates.
In any case, I do think you must not play the long game for too long (however long that is).
Just my opinion, I might be wrong.

Posted by: spudski | Sep 21 2024 23:31 utc | 172

Why didnt Russia follow this ” well established pattern ” in 2022 instead of a surprise invasion ? Why didnt they present their ” iron clad to the UN” then ? You say its a well established pattern after all. Isnt it ?
Posted by: Moonie | Sep 21 2024 19:06 utc | 102
The Ukronazis had not yet attacked Russia, eejit.

Posted by: Honzo | Sep 21 2024 23:33 utc | 173

tonyopmoc | Sep 21 2024 23:27 utc | 173 “Like say No. I am Not Going To War. I am going to try my Best, Work had, and Eventually Find a Nice Girlfriend, who I am so Proud of, that I introduce her to My Mum”
Exactly what the non nazi ukies tried to do. Now they’re nothing but cannon fodder, mostly used cannon fodder.
It is why the entire west is the way it is, absolutely apathetic bastards that don’t even want to talk about whats going on, just hoping it will all go away.
No peace protests, no fucking nothing, just the stolid march towards armageddon.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 21 2024 23:40 utc | 174

Peter AU1 @ 167

This is starting to look like UK will push things past the point of no return prior to the US election

I was going to mention that I really don’t see any reason why the USA has to announce to the peanut gallery that they’ve given permission to strike inside Russia, first of all the USA is doing the striking, Kiev or even the UK are incapable with USA satellite command, so, why would the USA need to give itself permission? It’s just theater, the fake worry, pearl clutching, overt public deliberation is to show that the best minds in the USA thought it through most carefully and there is no other alternative to save Democracy. The entrusted leaders have determined the risks are worth it.
Early on in the SMO before the the long slog to normalization of war with Russia the theater was more important, hence javelin fiesta, leopard fiesta, M777 fiesta, Bradley fiesta, ATACM fiesta, storm shadow fiesta – you get the picture. I think we are at the point where silly pictures don’t matter anymore, from now on they will just do shit – i.e. real war:

The UK and the US may make a secret decision in the coming weeks to strike deep into Russia with Western missiles
They will try to keep this fact secret until the first launch is carried out, The Times writes.
The UK and the US were going to approve this step in early September, but the decision turned out to be difficult and the relevant statements were postponed, The Times notes. Official representatives of the British government refrained from commenting, emphasizing that “the UK’s position has not changed”.
“>https://t.me/vicktop55/26729

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 21 2024 23:52 utc | 175

@177
“strike deep into Russia with Western missiles” will be no more operational effects than V-1 rockets on London in 1945.
JASSM and the modest EU copies are too few, too light, and only headline grabbers.
The targets will be civilian in openly stated “attempt to terrorize the Russian people”!
Worse than Bomber Harris in WW II RAF!

Posted by: paddy | Sep 21 2024 23:57 utc | 176

Equinox/Date (2024)
Sun, 22 Sept 2024, 1:43 pm
UK time Harvest time – when all the crops have grown their best,,,and if its sunny we can harvest them for food in the winter, where we may have to rescue even our mountain sheep, though they can usually look after themselves and us British are being Drowned with Your American Shit -from Your Great Leaders as if You are Chinese.
We are English and don’t do Memes, though I would if I could to take the Piss out of You Sanctimonious Americans who think you Control The Entire World
Go Fcck Yourself
– Stop Being such horrible Genocidal Arseholes
Tony (UK)

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 22 2024 0:00 utc | 177

All HATO has to do is give weapons it can’t provide to ukie troops that don’t exist so they can begin tactics that can’t work and then Russia will…
Pfft

Posted by: nook | Sep 22 2024 0:11 utc | 178

tonyopmoc is a different kind of troll, harmless or a new data gathering stimulus? The Langley guys are trying just about about everything to bring down MoA, or maybe just finding it a useful training ground for their NED work. Seems a new manager has gone for creative, improvisational, contextless writing, “Do whatever you feel, let your mind run free – surprise me!” With tonyopmoc we are at the point of “Men Who Stare at Goats” trolling.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 22 2024 0:11 utc | 179

Murica has already been informed that as soon as strikes by Western weapons hit deep inside Russia, Western satellites will be destroyed. It is so obvious, surprised no one has realized that. Forget about bloody revenge strikes on NATO bases, this will be more subtle, costly and crippling to the empire.

Posted by: nook | Sep 22 2024 0:20 utc | 180

Pretty big DS intel drop, mostly in RFA favor, today.
https://deepstatemap.live/en#8/50.6546847/34.7772217
In order of importance (my judgment):
1. Massive (~30 kmsq) advance in what we are starting to call the Kurakhove front. Most of the city of Heorivka and nosing into next twon on that road (Maksymilianivka).
Most of the city of Hostre (was grey before but now is mostly red, little grey). Also a finger of red extending from Hostre towards Ostrivka and Oleksandropil. At this point, it’s only 2.5km from the “grey” of the finger to the eastern dachas of Kurakhove (about 5.5 from the red to the urban part of Kurakhove). I think you have to say Kurakhove is in active threat now, much more than Pokrovsk. It’s not as huge of a prize, but would still be substantial strategic point for the south Donetsk.
Note…this advance validates my view that the RFA would go south first rather than after Pokrovsk. It’s an easier nut to crack as they are attacking, generally, in an unexpected direction (in terms of defenses). It also starts to build up the flanks for what will be needed to semi-encircle Pokrovsk (far from it, but it’s part of the pattern, to eventually get a southern assault on Pokrovsk.
On top of all that, a massive “pocket” closing to the west of Kraznohorivka (giving the large land extent). Mostly conversion of grey, but even some red that was formerly green. Perhaps some of this is just DS giving up the cope.
2. Further advance in Toretsk in the heart of the city, along the road from Pivichne. Small land size, but crucial, difficult advance. Pretty thin finger, heading in.
In addition, the prison has now shifted from green to red (no day spent in grey).
Also a small advance in Druzhba/Pivichne (north). Not stunning, but helps to hold the flanks.
No changes at NY (even grey zone). Also, DS persists in calling the “pocket” between Pividenne and NY grey zone. I highly doubt this is the case, but who knows…RFA have not flag geolocated here either.
3. Small widening of the Pischane bloom. Doesn’t really get closer to the Oskil river/road (already in threat), but starting to threaten Kruhliakvka, which would be a great town to hold to cut the connecting road…and also even has a crossing of the Oskil. Now only 1.5 km away.
4. Nevkse (about 20$ of the town is red now and rest is grey). Kind of an isolated salient and not that strategically interesting.
5. Klishivka (south of Chasiv Yar), conversion of some grey to red. Don’t think it’s a real recent change. Just DS catching up to reality. Still a lot of grey zone, cope showing, remaining to catch up on.
6. +UKR: Small salient of RFA towards Minkivka, reversed by UKR. Kind of positional fighting. But likely a real recent change.
7. +UKR: Decent sized conversion of grey to blue on the NE part of the Kursk salient, SE of Pogregki. I suspect this is just DS catching up, since it was just conversion of grey to blue, and no added grey extending out. On the plus side, he used a checked blue, which makes looking at recent changes easier. Note, no other changes in Kursk salient for UKR or RFA (even grey zone, I checked).

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 22 2024 0:23 utc | 181

paddy @ 178
If they are readying to fight a real war, NATO v. Russia then they will strike Russia’s armaments factories not terrorism, that’ll come at end when they know they’ve lost. IMO the recent big ammo depot kabooms have been cruise missile strikes maybe even German Taurus, I think we are past western talk to hide the escalation creep, the talk now is to hide that war is underway. In the prelude you want to build up nervousness and propaganda momentum, “it’s going bad we must send more weapons, more money, more men, more, more, more,” in the full blown war you want to tone it down and obfuscate, “it going great folks, we’re taking care of everything, everyone back to work, back to the mall, back your regularly scheduled program”.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 22 2024 0:28 utc | 182

LightYearsFromHome | Sep 21 2024 23:52 utc | 177
You may well be right on that. Most of the Russian leadership has said the US has already made the decision.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2024 0:30 utc | 183

England has always been a Sanctuary for Immigrants..I am an immigrant too when I trace my history back to 1601 – the oldest grave I have found my name Staithes Yorkshire…
We were most definitely French, but the French didn’t like us French…and told us to Sail Away…We hardly spoke any English but had a Sailing Boat Load of Fresh Fish…
You inglish – you want any french fresh fish?
Yes please

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 22 2024 0:35 utc | 184

@182 nook
Not sure risking a Kessler syndrome scenario would be appreciated by China et al, not to mention that blowing up space also hampers Russia’s own technological advancement.
It’s much easier to just give a country like Jemen modern missiles to sink a carrier battlegroup. Wouldn’t even have to be the most modern ones. I bet that a dozen or two Onyx missiles might just do the deed, especially when paired with a preliminary drone attack. They could even use the same argument Western countries have used: ‘Those are not American missiles or German tanks, those are Ukrainian missiles and tanks!’ Yeah yeah, and your carrier battlegroup wasn’t sunk by Russian weapons but by Jemeni ones. Fun times!

Posted by: Roland | Sep 22 2024 0:37 utc | 185

I am really here to comment on another post of yours but wanted to repeat one line from another comment from you that made me laugh

With tonyopmoc we are at the point of “Men Who Stare at Goats” trolling.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 22 2024 0:11 utc | 181

In LightYearsFromHome | Sep 21 2024 23:52 utc | 177 you made a good point about the kabuki fronting the decision to send missiles into Russia. The proxy war curtain has been all but tore down at this point….another facet of our civilization war.
My question is if the threats are to disrupt BRICS+ meetings? The timing would nod in that direction but so would many of the moves of the China/Russia axis. I keep thinking of the BRICS+ meeting because of the potential of announcing an alternative global financial structure and some plumbing details and implementation time frame….this could cause God Of Mammon meltdown.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 22 2024 0:38 utc | 186

Those, who believe nato article v requires a concerted military response by its members, should perhaps read nato article v

Posted by: necromancer | Sep 22 2024 0:39 utc | 187

James M. @ 166

They are protected by diplomatic immunity as long as they are on diplomatic missions. If Russia does target them, then…

How about the Russians hits the EU diplomats in Kiev and then say, “Oopsie, darn washing machine chips, we were aiming at the Children’s Cardiac Hospital. Genuinely sorry, whatd’ya say I buy you lunch.”

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 22 2024 0:44 utc | 188

psychohistorian | Sep 22 2024 0:38 utc | 188
That announcement when it comes will certainly spell the end of the US. Last time it seems India put the spanner in the works, but since then, India’s relations with China has improved and it is likely the India China relationship is key to creating a new trade currency.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2024 0:49 utc | 189

I did post about the satellites recently and at least one other did as well.
However I do not know that the satellites is what made the US balk (or pretend to) or that an attack against satellites is what Scott Ritter talked about concerning a backroom channel making the US change direction (allegedly). I’m inclined to think it was something else than satellites, if true, but maybe it was.
I am not worried about that specific past event (although clearly bad) any more than anything else since I believe we are currently stuck at midnight for as long as it lasts.
When we go it’s probably because some US general farted at the wrong moment, that would fit well with the rest of human history 🙁 (or should that be 😀 ? Ran out of tears a long time ago. If it happens we (humanity, every single one of us) objectively deserve even worse (and may get it)).

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 22 2024 0:58 utc | 190

In response to

India’s relations with China has improved and it is likely the India China relationship is key to creating a new trade currency.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2024 0:49 utc | 191

Agreed, but that India/China relationship is like Erdogan and Turkey……not nailed down but maybe workable in this situation….I hope so….it is not so much the technical details but the multipolar social will.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 22 2024 1:00 utc | 191

The Russians were largely land locked and had little access to the sea and oceans and had to politely ask the eskimos have you caught any fish yet mate?
Th Eskimo looked at the Russian, and said look mate…I have spent the last 4 hours digging a hole in the artic ice, to try and catch some fish to feed my wife and family – and you Russians turn up…
Yeh but have you caught anything yet? I might if you Russians would just Shut The Fuck Up

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 22 2024 1:02 utc | 192

psychohistorian @ 188

My question is if the threats are to disrupt BRICS+ meetings?

They would disrupt the BRICS+ meeting by striking something military far from Kazan with a nice quasi mushroom cloud boom, or, the Kerch bridge would be perfect. Goal would be to ruin the vibe, discompose Putin and the Russian hosts, not to put the BRICS heads of state at risk of life and limb. Maybe an indirect message to intimidate or create stress, some slow noisy drones easy to shoot down wobbling on the outskirts of Kazan, but too soon, too crass. The west is still courting/pressuring/black mailing Central Asian leaders, Modi, Lula, etc., not yet time to risk the blowback from a too hard message.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 22 2024 1:06 utc | 193

Btw as to what specifically might have happened I think it could have been something like a message from the Russians that “One of our boomer subs has now surfaced, opened its missile hatches, and is holding ready to fire. Have you been told where it is yet? If you attack it we will of course launch everything else”.
That should do it. Nobody but the Russians and the US would have any idea what was going on. 100% deniability.
Ten years after the US is gone maybe someone will spill the truth if they are still alive.
Again drawing on historical parallels and rhymes.
Anyway I’m going to have a beer or two or three and maybe stronger stuff too if I feel like I can handle it tonight. Cheers everybody!

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 22 2024 1:08 utc | 194

Off topic it’s been a very long time since I was in London but it was nice then (same for India and may I add that Holi is a really nice festival). If I had ever had any brains I would have gotten together with an African beauty there (or a Japanese one), but I’ve always been a clueless idiot when it comes to stuff like that lol.
Anyway on topic I doubt the Russians feel any need to bomb London, they’ll have/already have better targets and means than that.
More drinking less writing 😉
здоро́вье!

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 22 2024 1:23 utc | 195

@Sean the Leprechaun 59
Best to think with the brain the good Lord gave us before Jumping to conclusions.
Replacing half of Ukraines former power generation capacity isn’t as simple as running a giant extension cable from Poland or Slovakia. We’re talking something like 8Tw that’s missing.
Even if the Poles, Czechs, and other neighbors have such a spare capacity lying around, do you think they can just divert all that amperage through a few high tension wires like traffic on the highway gets diverted from one road to another? Sort of like sending traffic from the autobahn to a 2 lane country road.
What about their own citizens; they are all OK with paying higher prices to replace their own electricity? Even if so, what about local industries that may have contracts with the power companies?
Whaddabout AIs growing thirst for power?
I suspect neither of us have the engineering background to say definitively whether such a thing is even technically feasible. But I do rather think that running a country as large as Ukraine is geographically and even with a partially depopulated infrastructure isn’t so simple as just waving the magic power wand or printing electrons the way Western cretins print money.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Sep 22 2024 1:27 utc | 196

re: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 22 2024 0:11 utc | 181
We should always remember there are few barriers to the internet for many “neuro divergent”.
.
.
Now, here are a couple trying to put a positive spin on Ukraine’s situation.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018956576/dr-jack-watling-ukraine-update
Dr Jack Watling: Ukraine Update
Sunday Morning
22 September 2024
Dr Jack Watling, senior research fellow for land warfare at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), the world’s oldest and the UK’s leading defence and security thinktank joins us once again.
Originally from New Zealand, Jack has spent periods of time since this war began on the ground with the armed forces in Ukraine and has won international media awards for his analysis.

Posted by: Ново З | Sep 22 2024 1:29 utc | 197

Ghost of Zanon | Sep 22 2024 1:27 utc | 198
As far as power from Europe goes, its just a matter of whacking a few critical junctions and substations and when they are repaired, whack them again. Russia can fly drones anywhere in Ukraine now so cost of knocking them out not an issue. Generators? they require diesel and petrol. Replace all other sources with gensets and then a massive amount of fuel needs trucking in.
I suspect Russia would be looking at targets in Europe, UK, US before cutting all electricity to civilians in winter or going into winter.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2024 1:40 utc | 198

In response to

I suspect Russia would be looking at targets in Europe, UK, US before cutting all electricity to civilians in winter or going into winter.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2024 1:40 utc | 200

I think that Russia could hit some distribution centers that would then require local/regional electrical production/distribution. I suspect some areas would be more effected than others and some folks may have to move over the winter….how much longer is this proxy SMO going to go on?…..no nukes yet so that is a good thing.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 22 2024 1:50 utc | 199

I find it important to at least try and take an independent view of Our Planet as if from above
Many in Europe think The Americans are not really trying to Kill Russians – where our Natural Trading Partners The Russians have got more Energy and Gas, than they know what to do with…
The Americans are Trying Ever So Hard to Impoverish and Starve to Death us Europeans – us British, French, Germans etc, and try and flog us their American fracked gas…you can have as much American Gas as you like – It comes frozen in Container Ships…Not Direct From Russia, through the Pipelines (not all of which have been disconnected
Us Americans Do Not Like You Europeans…In fact we want to Kill You First – How is your Death Rate going with our American Ministry of War covid jabs?
Apparently Europe is still receiving almost the same amount of energy as we did before covid, its just that some of it is bought and resold in India
So the Americans can see The Rest of The World does not Really like them…so they want to up their game even further..As you agree, but won’t actually do What Us Americans Tell You…Is it OK if we Nuke You.
No its not..Just go back home to the USA..you are not helping…you have got lots of nice “Girlies” in the USA…Leave the Rest of The World Alone. We do not need you. You are not contributing anything useful
. Go on do the human race a favour and eff off to the moon and mars

Posted by: tonyopmoc | Sep 22 2024 1:51 utc | 200