FT Reports A Ukrainian Warcrime

August 15, 2024

The willful killing of unarmed soldiers, especially when there is a good chance of taking them prisoners, is certainly a war crime.

It is astonishing that Christopher Miller of the Financial Times reports of it without further comment.

How Ukraine pulled off its biggest gamble: invading Russia (archived) – Financial Times, Aug 12, 2024

As Volodymyr prepared to enter Russian territory, adrenaline ran through his veins. It was not lost on him that 81 years ago, another battle in Russia’s Kursk region marked a turning point for Europe.
…
“We entered Russian territory for the first time at 1pm on Tuesday [August 6],” Volodymyr said. “We were among the first to enter there.”

To his astonishment, his unit faced no resistance as their eight-wheeled, 20 tonne US Stryker fighting vehicle stormed across the border in broad daylight.

They soon encountered a Russian unit “sitting in the forest, drinking coffee at a table”, Volodymyr recalled. “Then our Stryker drives right into their table.

“We killed many of them on the first day,” he said. “Because they were unarmed and didn’t expect us.”

Not wanting to end up like their comrades, he added, “dozens” of stunned Russian soldiers simply laid down their weapons and surrendered.

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"81 years ago, another battle in Russia’s Kursk region marked a turning point for Europe," writes Miller. He and others should consider what that really means. If I remember correctly, the German fascists and their Ukrainian allies also committed war crimes – and lost the fight.

Posted by b on August 15, 2024 at 10:06 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Posted by: canuck | Aug 16 2024 10:47 utc | 492
If you weren’t such a clueless canuck (that part even self-confessed) idiot, you would know that Peter AU1 has called me and countless other chatters “faggots” dozens of times (only in the last week or so). Crying about him in response being called a “Kangaroo fucker” is pathetic. That’s beside the point that “faggot” is a term of abuse (and reflective of hatred of the person using it) while only an autist would take “Kangaroo fucker” as a literal accusation.
And just FYI, “greislich” does not mean “old”, it means “repulsive/despicable”. (Though I believe both are applicable.)

Posted by: Unnamed | Aug 16 2024 11:50 utc | 501

“Posted by: canuck | Aug 16 2024 10:47 utc | 492
If you weren’t such a clueless canuck (that part even self-confessed) idiot, you would know that Peter AU1 has called me and countless other chatters “faggots” dozens of times (only in the last week or so). Crying about him in response being called a “Kangaroo fucker” is pathetic. That’s beside the point that “faggot” is a term of abuse (and reflective of hatred of the person using it) while only an autist would take “Kangaroo fucker” as a literal accusation.
And just FYI, “greislich” does not mean “old”, it means “repulsive/despicable”. (Though I believe both are applicable.)”
Posted by: Unnamed Peasant | Aug 16 2024 11:50 utc | 506
You called PeterAU a ‘Kangaroo Fucker” then you vehemently protest that you really didn’t mean what you accused.
So your vitriol means ‘nothing’ while Peters Au less aggressive taunt is a “term of abuse”-pure Peasant thinking and Woke sensibilities..
You have become a joke.
Oh, you calling me a ‘clueless canuk”-your crude, fatuous onomatopoeia does nothing but amuse me as it further indicts you as an Intellectual Peasant.

Posted by: canuck | Aug 16 2024 12:00 utc | 502

watcher | Aug 16 2024 11:37 utc | 502
All my forebears came out in the 1850s on the emigration schemes for the poor. I tracked them all back both on my mother and fathers side. One was a convict that had a liking for horses, but he was released on parole on landing in Fremantle. After a year he gained a full pardon and made his way on a sailing boat to Adelaide. There he took up with young girl who had been shipped out as a servant girl. From there they made there way to Victoria. Bred like rabbits. A large family when one of the elder children applied for a government job, his parents marriage certificate was required so they got married.
That was on my mothers side. Bit of a charcter that one. On my fathers side, his mother tracked back both to northern Ireland and french aristocrat name on Guernsey or somewhere. Those British Islands off the french coast. Her forebears that came out were both northern Irish, but an old Irish name with crest and so forth.
All the rest were just British poor. The forbear with my surname – that was a bit of a sad story in tracing it. His first wife died in childbirth and to emigrate on the scheme he had to be married. He went up to the poor house and got a wife. Its her part of the story that is quite sad and I won’t go into that. My Great grandfather who is buried not far from where I now live was born on the ship out. The ships name was Wanderer and so his middle name is wanderer.
Most of forbears apart from the couple that landed in WA and SA all landed in Vic, and that is where they all stayed.
I haven’t bothered tracing all the offspring of the entire family tree, but in what I have traced, My parents were the generation to move out of Vic. Done my first trip across the Nullarbor when I was six weeks old. Don’t remember much of that though.
A few old pics in family photo album. Fathers mate drove his truck across for him and father and mother in the Plymouth towing a trailer.
The really dumb thing is, I left home in the west and traveled and worked around the top of Australia, came down here for a bit, and unbeknown to me, I married the niece of my fathers mate that I see in those old pics.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 16 2024 12:11 utc | 503

Posted by: aristodemos | Aug 15 2024 16:47 utc | 153
This crap again? Sorge was arrested in 1941.
Go read something worthwhile and learn before posting.

Posted by: Fernand | Aug 16 2024 12:30 utc | 504

Peter
Thanks. Your relations seem to have been in all the places mine were not. Mother’s family very, very early in NSW (1820s)and father’s Early Qld (1850s). Mostly Scottish with a bit of Irish and Welsh and a smidgen of English

Posted by: watcher | Aug 16 2024 13:01 utc | 505

Concerning ancestoral origins, I now say to people, “I’m related to President Kamala Haris!”
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/27/an-extremely-bad-man-news-of-kamala-harriss-slave-owning-ancestor-raises-opprobrium-and-intrigue-in-ballymoney/
https://www.ballycastlechronicle.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/news/kamala-harris-ancestor-links-with-antrim-town-12884/

Posted by: Ново З | Aug 16 2024 14:10 utc | 506

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 16 2024 10:28 utc | 485
Peter, you’re the one chatting away with those you know by now to be pieces of UK state propaganda, that I no longer interact with, they are a Bellingcat offering pitched for this forum. You’re the one quoting a mishmash of US based sources who you know full well are all in the CIA bird cage. You’re the one in the managed seating of Empire’s media circus and your lack of intellectual integrity would be comical if it weren’t for the fact that I’m disinclined to laugh at you.
Posted by: canuck | Aug 16 2024 10:03 utc | 478
Peter initiated the tone you object to. Even addressing your objection to us both equally would be a little biased.
Posted by: boneless | Aug 16 2024 10:34 utc | 487
I was paraphrasing the view I’ve seen expressed multiple times on Russian TG, not speculating. Other than news of his trial and MoD announcements, Popov is highly regarded. If you don’t know the subject, it’s your own assertions that are whole cloth fantasy.

Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 16 2024 14:13 utc | 507

With that said, for the benefit of others: I’m well aware that long sentences and parentheses are hard to parse for English speakers – not necessarily judging you for that either, languages are just different – but in my native language (like many others) they’re commonplace, and the habit is hard to shake.”
Posted by: Unnamed | Aug 16 2024 10:12 utc | 479
In English, as in other languages, we tend to use commas for that purpose. Overly long sentences are tedious to read and often can be broken up into shorter ones, increasing the clarity of the intended message.

Posted by: Samu | Aug 16 2024 14:40 utc | 508

Posted by: boneless | Aug 16 2024 10:34 utc | 487
I can’t find the posts I was looking for on Popov but I did find some newer ones, that contradict my statements, that I’ll post anyway because they seem informative and I’m not partial. In any case, the content of the posts I was referring to can be deduced from the line “The public is in an uproar”.
I’ll add that “leave it to the courts” should be understood in context, even Timur Ivanov was only nominally arrested for corruption, if he’d impressed in the execution of his duties he’d almost certainly still be on top of the world, corruption charges often seem to be about resolving some other issue.
Likewise “… there was an audio recording with an outright insult to the leadership …” hardly inspires confidence in the objectivity of the decision to initiate a criminal case for corruption, especially when corruption is presumed to be quite widespread.
https://t.me/bayraktar1070/2217

Forwarded from Revenge of good will
Alexander Kharchenko expressed an extremely unpopular opinion in the context of the situation with the arrest of General Popov. It runs counter to the opinion of the majority of bloggers/war correspondents/experts/deputies. We are more than sure that soon they will start throwing slippers at him (Kharchenko) too.
Comrades, let’s calm down a bit, let the investigation/court sort this out. Otherwise, we greet with shouts of hurray when the government gives the command “Sicken” to arrest some, and then immediately shout “shame” when it comes to others.
Today, in the afternoon, they already stated that all army commanders can be imprisoned on the same charges as Popov. What is this? Discrediting? Public accusation? Slander? Personal emotionality?
And what if everything is suddenly confirmed? Then all today’s statements were lies or mistakes? And how will we change our tune then? Let’s remember that it wasn’t Popov alone who “saved the front” in Zaporozhye, but that it was the Russian soldier who stood there to the death first and foremost? So maybe we shouldn’t forget that right away?
Let’s decide what’s important to us: a cross or underwear.
You can make mistakes, but you can’t lie!

https://t.me/bayraktar1070/2216

About General Popov
The public is in an uproar. They are putting a truth-telling general in jail. The authors of the posts recall his leadership in the Zaporizhia direction and the audio message to his soldiers. Many make hasty conclusions.
However, Popov also had his failures. His command in the Kharkov direction alone raises a lot of uncomfortable questions. Plus, there was an audio recording with an outright insult to the leadership, which is not welcomed in any army in the world.
But he was not arrested for leading the troops or for the audio recordings. We are talking about fraud on an especially large scale. Let the investigators sort this out. All our discussions about his military leadership talents have nothing to do with what he is accused of.
Alexander Kharchenko

Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 16 2024 14:58 utc | 509

“‘clueless canuk”-your crude, fatuous onomatopoeia…”
Posted by: canuck | Aug 16 2024 12:00 utc | 507
‘clueless canuck’ is “alliteration”, not “onomatopoeia”…
-> “Onomatopoeia is a type of word, or the process of creating a word, that phonetically imitates, resembles, or suggests the sound that it describes.” – i.e. “gurgle” or “chirp”
-> “Alliteration is the repetition of syllable-initial consonant sounds between nearby words…” – i.e. “Penis Pianist” (for Zel as this is a Ukie thread)

Posted by: jure | Aug 16 2024 15:23 utc | 510

Posted by: boneless | Aug 16 2024 10:34 utc | 487
A bit more on Popov and some early context that is actually hard to believe. Unless I’m mistaken, the person referred as “Chief of General Staff” is Army General Valery Gerasimov.
Again, time will tell as to who is suddenly deemed inadequate by the top political leadership.
https://t.me/readovkaru/7151

Russia Loves Heroes: Society’s Reaction to General Popov Transferred to House Arrest Says a Lot About Him and About Us The former
commander of the 58th Combined Arms Army, Major General Ivan Popov, was finally transferred from a pretrial detention facility to house arrest after several refusals and a request directly from the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation. What is happening can be assessed as a positive step, given the seriousness of the charges brought against the military leader. Comrades in arms and acquaintances described
Popov after his arrest as an effective officer and a worthy person, famous above all for his honesty. The assessment of the personal and professional qualities of the major general is absolutely inconsistent with the charges brought against him, so the easing of the detention regime was generally perceived positively by society. The court case has not yet been completed, and the presence of guilt, if any, as well as its degree, has yet to be determined. But even today, the fact that society is assessing the current situation extremely jealously and harshly demonstrates the need for justice. Any crimes related to the army are traditionally perceived by the people in such times with extreme severity. The fact that our civil society is in no hurry to smear its heroes with black paint and supports them even in such moments of fate is worth a lot. It means that, despite all the difficulties, we managed to preserve both humanity and common sense. And this will certainly be appreciated. And Popov himself. And those generals and Russian soldiers who are fighting the enemy on the front lines today for the sake of our future.

https://t.me/zhivoff/10061

Soldiers to be punished for Storm Shadow evacuation
The resignation of the 58th Army commander, General Popov, coincided in an amazing way with the General Staff’s attempt to sort out and punish those responsible for the evacuation of a virtually intact Storm Shadow missile.
Yes, you heard right. They will be punished for pulling a downed missile out of the gray zone under enemy fire and immediately handing it over to a specialized military design bureau.
Soldiers from the Tsar’s Wolves volunteer battalion, risking their lives, took the missile from the battlefield and, in agreement with military technicians, quickly handed it over for study. The entire country was talking about it and is waiting for the results of reverse engineering on this missile.
All, but not all! Despite the fact that the General Staff was absolutely aware of the special operation to evacuate the missile, the Minister of Defense had completely different plans for it. They wanted to display it as a trophy in the Patriot Park , and not this: “Let’s study it and do better.”
An official telegram signed by the Chief of General Staff arrived at the 58th Army with a demand to “conduct an official investigation and punish the guilty .” Despite the absurdity of the demand, an investigation is now heading to the front line to look for a “scapegoat.” Popov has been removed, and there is no one to stand up for the guys.
Some unimaginable processes are taking place in the army leadership, which are difficult to reconcile with common sense. The latest decisions of the General Staff significantly reduce the morale and combat effectiveness of the army, the same army that defended Zaporozhye in conditions of a shortage of everything in the world. The President needs to intervene in this situation. There is no one else to trust.

Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 16 2024 16:26 utc | 511

https://divorcethenation.com/?mymap=55
Posted by: Fred | Aug 16 2024 8:43 utc | 457
One problem with the 4 way split is that the largest entity has 93 million people. Who will be the custodian of the nuclear weapons?

Posted by: trumpwins | Aug 16 2024 16:51 utc | 512

Hi Jeremy,
“What? Those aren’t “my” figures, they from the Russian Defence Ministry. If you have any substantive evidence that disproves their accuracy I am sure many here would be very interested in seeing it.
Just because the West habitually lies, there is no need to project the same mindset onto Russia.”
Just so we are clear–you introduce this as “evidence” to support your world view without any critical analysis. A blanket acceptance of it as true. And I ask you why you do this, and you tell me to prove it wrong? Given all the work being done to correlate social media posts and geography being done in Ukraine and outside (and understanding the nature of the war being fought), we have a very clear idea that this is a nonsensical claim.
Shouldn’t you be verifying the veracity of the Russian claims–you support them. You believe what the Russians tell you–Why? We know that Russia is an authoritarian regime that has increasingly and punitively crushed any dissent concerning the war (blogging, mass media, personal protest, etc). It has real incentives and abilities to do what you accuse the West of–so, why not do that lying if you are Russia? The irony of your post is that we could not have this exchange of views in Russia–I would be in gaol …
So, why do you believe Russian claims?

Posted by: Cas | Aug 16 2024 17:34 utc | 513

Hi Canuck,
“I think Cas asked a sincere question, your reaction is a ‘tad’ over the top.”
Thank you. I feel there is a twinkle in your eye! I will say this once and get it out of the way.
I am genuinely interested in the issue of belief and the basis for it. When I see something like this kind of claim, the first thing I ask is why? Why do you believe one side and show complete skepticism for the other. And this is a default for many here. The question I ask is: “Is there ANY evidence at all that would help shift your position from the one that you currently hold.” We all(?) want to hold that we are reasonable and open to having our minds changed. My experience unfortunately, is that the answer to the question above is in many cases, “Nothing.”
My father lived through WWII in Poland and he passed onto me a deep appreciation of the issues from Central/Eastern Europe. Doing study at the tertiary level in this area (and in Economics and Philosophy) helped deepen my understanding.
I use 4 heuristics:
Sourcing–who is saying it and what biases might they have; cui bono; have sources on multiple sides because …
Corroboration–do people on both sides agree because that can help you with …
Contextualization–what is going on around this event, leading up to it, circumstances, etc., that might affect outcomes or decision making and one particular aspect of this …
Absence of relevant information–sometimes a dog that doesn’t bark is pretty important.
Canuck, people call people “trolls” because it is lazy and easier than having to actually explore what one believes and why; you run the risk of someone showing that you might be mistaken. Or, that since you believe the only possible truth the other must be wrong without reflection and deserve to be burnt at the stake. I am uninterested in this kind of religious thinking and dogma. For example, when there is a post of Orlov’s communique without comment as, I am guessing, a self-evident truth, I find that to be a declaration of faith rather than a rational argument. And I am uninterested in that kind of disguise.

Posted by: Cas | Aug 16 2024 17:59 utc | 514

So, why do you believe Russian claims?
Posted by: Cas | Aug 16 2024 17:34 utc | 518
————————————————————-
So, why do you swallow the Western Imperialist propaganda hook, line, and sinker? Perhaps, being from Poland you are Russia phobic. Why can’t you read the aggressive NATO tea leaves, i.e., the historic eastern expansion since the collapse of the Soviet Union? I live in the stomach of the hegemonic beast, and I can see it.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 16 2024 20:38 utc | 515

anon2020 | Aug 16 2024 16:26 utc | 516 …
Why is Strelkov still in prison?
He seems to have been correct about rather a lot….

Posted by: Cynic | Aug 16 2024 20:42 utc | 516

Peter
Agree with Canuck. You are much too smart to waste time with creeps like Unamed. Actually until his recent posts i had no feelings about it at all but now i see it as a very nasty person.

Posted by: watcher | Aug 16 2024 11:37 utc | 502
Quite right,
I dunno about you, but nothing says “nasty” like suggesting the Morgenthau Plan to be a good thing (see Unnamed’s post no. 354) despite, if not because of, what WikiSpooks has to say about it and the fact that the same US and Britain that wanted it supported Hitler and gave him inspiration for his policies early on in WWII, making the Morgenthau Plan rather hypocritical come to think of it.
I imagine B and other German barflies would not be here today had the Morgenthau Plan come to pass against the Soviets’ better judgment.
A prospective Russo-German alliance has long been seen as a threat by the Anglo-American establishment for at least 100 years. Both world wars were an attempt to prevent such an alliance, and the present conflict in Ukraine looks to be the latest of such attempts.
The irony of the US and British support for the Morgenthau Plan is lost when one considers this – it was consistent with their imperialist mischief then and now, so I can understand where the allegations of him/her being an empire propagandist come from – not that I support the allegations.

Posted by: joey_n | Aug 16 2024 21:16 utc | 517

We know that Russia is an authoritarian regime that has increasingly and punitively crushed any dissent concerning the war (blogging, mass media, personal protest, etc). It has real incentives and abilities to do what you accuse the West of–so, why not do that lying if you are Russia? The irony of your post is that we could not have this exchange of views in Russia–I would be in gaol …
So, why do you believe Russian claims?
Posted by: Cas | Aug 16 2024 17:34 utc | 518
————————————————————-
You call Russia an authoritarian regime? But have you looked at Ukraine lately. This US backed nazi regime came to power in 2014 via a US State Department sponsored (organized and paid for) deadly coup. Then the US, and its Western poodles, rushed to canonize a “new” government via a phony election. They lied to the international community pretending to support negotiations that could have prevented a war but all the while preparing Ukraine for NATO war to move nuclear capable weapons to Russia’s border.
What kind of “Economics and Philosophy” professor are you to criticize people for taking a position contrary to the Western Imperialist liars. Why would anybody take their word?
At least Russia and Ukraine have an excuse, both are at war. What excuse does the Imperial West have? All they do is START WARS, finance them, and generally let their proxies do the dying for them: Then they move in like vultures to pick the corpus clean.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 16 2024 21:58 utc | 518

How was WW1 an attempt to prevent a Russo-German alliance? Is the thought that France and Britain, by offering Constantinople as a potential gain to Russia, made it inevitable that Russia would choose the Franco-British side in a new war?

Posted by: Lysias | Aug 17 2024 17:56 utc | 519

Hi Ed,
Whether you want to say Ukraine is authoritarian or not or that the US is a propagandist is NOT an answer to my observations and question. Even if we grant your claim that the West is propagandist, I ask why YOU believe Russian claims? My only answer to the version of history you present in Eastern Europe is to do some reading from reputable historians. Check out Snyder’s Road to Unfreedom for example. Or Weiss, The Accidental Czar, or just about any book written about Putin from the established academic sources outside official Russian sources. If you get your “information” solely from Russian sources aligned with the Russian government–what do you expect you will get? I mentioned 4 heuristics above. I listen and read to many sources on both sides and use the heuristics I mentioned to sift through a lot of nonsense. What do you use?

Posted by: Cas | Aug 18 2024 7:12 utc | 520

Posted by: canuck | Aug 20 2024 11:40 utc | 521

“Canuck, people call people “trolls” because it is lazy and easier than having to actually explore what one believes and why; you run the risk of someone showing that you might be mistaken. Or, that since you believe the only possible truth the other must be wrong without reflection and deserve to be burnt at the stake. I am uninterested in this kind of religious thinking and dogma. For example, when there is a post of Orlov’s communique without comment as, I am guessing, a self-evident truth, I find that to be a declaration of faith rather than a rational argument. And I am uninterested in that kind of disguise.”
Posted by: Cas | Aug 16 2024 17:59 utc | 517
You make a good point.
There are obvious trolls like Napoleon and Unnamed Peasant but, perhaps, I have been ‘lazy’ and classified others as trolls just because they had a different opinion.
T

Posted by: canuck | Aug 20 2024 12:04 utc | 522

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