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April 18, 2024
Ukraine Open Thread 2024-112
Only for news & views directly related to the war in Ukraine. The current open thread for other issues is here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
Well it looks like Ukraine got a hold of some more anti-air missiles : Posted by: bored | Apr 19 2024 13:04 utc | 101 @James M. #90:
Says someone who doesn’t take the facts presented by Micron into consideration.
No, that’s not the definition of trolling. And yes, Micron is engaged in substantive debate. The reason Micron has to repeat himself is that there are too many people here who are completely delusional.
Yes, and that’s why you shouldn’t be calling people who disagree with you “trolls.” Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 13:05 utc | 102 @James M. #92:
Another unnecessary insult from a person who is supposedly all about the “free flow of ideas.” Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 13:08 utc | 103 Thank you for replying; for the record I do not share the view of the poster above who dismissed your post as trolling. Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 13:18 utc | 104 On Chasov Yar. Sorry, long text.
https://twitter.com/vestnik_russia/status/1781297375878729945 Posted by: unimperator | Apr 19 2024 13:19 utc | 105 @James M. #94:
A Quora user provides the following description of the difference between a withdrawal and a retreat:
Unacceptable losses is exactly what Russian Armed Forces have been suffering under Kiev (in the words of Russian Colonel Pyotr Shuvalov, “…the regrouping was inevitable—during those days we already lost more modern (emphasis on the word ‘modern’) equipment than we have in service today.”). Therefore, the proper term for what happened in Spring 2022 is retreat. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 13:35 utc | 106
Not curious enough to go check, but still mildly curious: Posted by: Poslan1 | Apr 19 2024 13:36 utc | 107 ref 80 and 87 Posted by: JP Straley | Apr 19 2024 13:38 utc | 108 Well it looks like Ukraine got a hold of some more anti-air missiles : Posted by: Newbie | Apr 19 2024 13:41 utc | 109 @PalmaSailor #99:
Why not withdraw to Lake Baikal then? Imagine how many resources the Ukraine will have to expend to get their resources to the front there! Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 13:48 utc | 110
well, they couldnt. the eu has closed the airspace to russian planes and truckts etc, so how exactly would those russian planes be delivered? Posted by: Justpassinby | Apr 19 2024 13:55 utc | 111 people here continue to insist that Russia should stay where it is. Posted by: PalmaSailor | Apr 19 2024 14:11 utc | 112 “Unacceptable losses is exactly what Russian Armed Forces have been suffering under Kiev (in the words of Russian Colonel Pyotr Shuvalov, “…the regrouping was inevitable—during those days we already lost more modern (emphasis on the word ‘modern’) equipment than we have in service today.”). Therefore, the proper term for what happened in Spring 2022 is retreat.” I’m not saying that it should or it shouldn’t, but I am saying that if the aim is to exhaust and de militarise the enemy then a few miles here or there doesn’t matter. Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 14:23 utc | 114 Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 13:48 utc | 111 Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 19 2024 14:26 utc | 115 The delusion here is unreal. While the Russian media is talking of the need to advance so that the reconstruction of Severodonetsk/Lisichansk and Avdeyevka can begin, people here continue to insist that Russia should stay where it is. Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 14:26 utc | 116 I see a few of the peculiar breed of strutting peacock types that compose the NATO braintrust are here to talk up the futile efforts of NATO to inflict a strategic defeat on Russia. NATO isn’t capable of such a feat. They have however deeply wounded their own economies with this vainglorious imbecility. A fact which can only be concealed for so long. Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Apr 19 2024 14:27 utc | 117 Here, my interpretation of the enemy for Russia is : Ukraine + NATO + US. This compact has more or less unlimited ressources, or at least it will not suffer catastrophic shortages for a long time (although it may have supply constraints). Posted by: PalmaSailor | Apr 19 2024 14:28 utc | 118 Unacceptable losses is exactly what Russian Armed Forces have been suffering under Kiev (in the words of Russian Colonel Pyotr Shuvalov, “…the regrouping was inevitable—during those days we already lost more modern (emphasis on the word ‘modern’) equipment than we have in service today.”). Therefore, the proper term for what happened in Spring 2022 is retreat. Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 14:29 utc | 119 What would be the unaccepable losses for Ukro army? Posted by: vargas | Apr 19 2024 14:33 utc | 120 @PalmaSailor #113:
The aim is also to liberate the people of Donbass and to allow the territories that have already been liberated to begin reconstruction. The aim is also to demoralize Ukrainian soldiers by showing them that they can’t hold the lines against Russian forces. The aim is also showing the world that, despite all the help provided to the Ukraine by NATO, Russia is still advancing (even if slowly). Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 14:39 utc | 121 Reply to 121 Posted by: Eighthman | Apr 19 2024 14:46 utc | 122 @canuck #114:
Yes, there wasn’t enough Russian forces to besiege Kiev, which means that (a) couldn’t possibly work. You can’t pressure someone with something that can’t do anything to that someone. Regarding (b), no troops have been pulled from Donbass. I suggest you reread Ruslan Pukhov’s “From ‘Special’ to ‘Military’ ” to get a clearer picture of how things played out. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 14:51 utc | 123 The words of Kiev’s resident propagandist & rent-a-gob Mikhail Podoliak are interesting for giving us an oblique insight into the current groupthink at Zelensky’s bunker. In a very recent interview he labels Iran & its April drone & missile shower a: Posted by: FakeBelieve | Apr 19 2024 15:01 utc | 124 Yes ! This is the fundamental problem of this war since it began. There is no limit other than full extinction of Ukraine. I truly pray for mass surrenders or rebellion because this will be horrific. Posted by: vargas | Apr 19 2024 15:07 utc | 125 Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 14:23 utc | 115
because it’s completely wrong on several counts. A detailed response would drag the thread too far off-topic so I’ll just leave these bullet points: Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 19 2024 15:10 utc | 126 I suggest you reread Ruslan Pukhov’s “From ‘Special’ to ‘Military’ ” to get a clearer picture of how things played out. Posted by: waynorinorway | Apr 19 2024 15:16 utc | 127 Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 10:12 utc | 74
you wrote a Pamphlet about some telegram channels – of cource only about pro-russian Posted by: ghiwen | Apr 19 2024 15:22 utc | 128 > Well it looks like Ukraine got a hold of some more anti-air missiles : Posted by: Arioch | Apr 19 2024 15:38 utc | 129 Posted by: Micron | Apr 19 2024 14:23 utc | 115 Posted by: anonposter | Apr 19 2024 15:43 utc | 130
‘unlimited industrial capacity? Really? You cannot possible believe that, given the inability to produce even enough dumbfire mortar rounds to keep up with Russia. The West has deindustrilized in favor of a hollowed out, financier economy. Just drive around the Midwest to see the effects. Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Apr 19 2024 15:57 utc | 131 > betraying all the people who believed in Russia, Posted by: Arioch | Apr 19 2024 16:13 utc | 133 What would be the unaccepable losses for Ukro army? Posted by: Newbie | Apr 19 2024 16:22 utc | 134 The Turkish gas pipeline, which runs through Bulgaria, and transports Russian gas to Serbia and Hungary… the “Turkish Stream”… may remain the only pipeline carrying Russian gas to the EU from the beginning of 2025. Posted by: Retaining_H2O | Apr 19 2024 16:29 utc | 135 If we take Shoigu’s numbers they’re still under Posted by: rk | Apr 19 2024 16:41 utc | 136 S #66:
Unfortunately, I wasn’t wrong. Russell is dead.
Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 16:43 utc | 137 The math on another “cuckster-offensive” just in time for the fall elections doesn’t pencil out. Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Apr 19 2024 17:10 utc | 138 Ukraine is winning this war. Putin thought he could shock and awe a failed state — he lost the battle of Kyiv. Ukraine was a powerful state. Vlad got punked by his advisors. Posted by: Napoleon | Apr 19 2024 17:17 utc | 139 Posted by: Napoleon | Apr 19 2024 17:17 utc | 140 Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 19 2024 17:30 utc | 140 Reply to 135 Posted by: Eighthman | Apr 19 2024 17:34 utc | 141 @waynorinorway #128:
You can Google site:moonofalabama.org "Posted by: S " or Ctrl-F/⌘F the string “ S ” (note the spaces around S). Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 17:36 utc | 142
You can keep repeating this to yourself, perhaps you find it comforting. However, it doesn’t make it true, I am sorry to tell you. Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Apr 19 2024 17:40 utc | 143 > Ruslan Pukhov’s “From ‘Special’ to ‘Military’ ” to get a clearer picture Posted by: Arioch | Apr 19 2024 17:40 utc | 144 S @ 138
Tragic to hear, Simonyan is authoritative so I guess that’s that. I really doubt the “tankers” story, I’m sure it’s SBU if not CIA – thing about “cops” is that they are petty and vindictive. I followed Bentley since before the SMO when he was fighting with the Donbas militia and before YouTube banished him, he had the honor of being one of the first to get banned. He rambled in his videos interviews and was alarmist but he was a concise and capable writer. Late in life he had found true love and contentment in the Donetsk war zone of all places. I’m not a religious man but he was, tomorrow I’ll go and light a candle in the cathedral for him. If he’s right about God maybe it’ll do me some good too. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Apr 19 2024 17:45 utc | 145 > In WWI you mobilized 1 in 6 of your general population, and when 1 in 6 of those were killed it was over (one way or the other). Posted by: Arioch | Apr 19 2024 17:52 utc | 146 @ 138 Posted by: Lauren Michele | Apr 19 2024 17:52 utc | 147 Ukraine Weekly Update, 19th April 2024: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-438 Posted by: Dr. Rob Campbell | Apr 19 2024 18:09 utc | 148 https://t.me/wagnernew/15309 Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Apr 19 2024 18:10 utc | 149 Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Apr 19 2024 1:05 utc | 48 Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Apr 19 2024 18:31 utc | 150 RIP Russell Bentley. Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Apr 19 2024 18:32 utc | 151 “…Russell being found, decapitated.” Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2024 18:44 utc | 152 … It takes at least 3 months to take a raw recruit with no military training and turn them into a basic grunt, … Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 19 2024 18:47 utc | 153 … I’m not a religious man but he was, tomorrow I’ll go and light a candle in the cathedral for him. If he’s right about God maybe it’ll do me some good too. Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 19 2024 18:51 utc | 154 If we take Shoigu’s numbers they’re still under Posted by: Newbie | Apr 19 2024 18:59 utc | 155 > In WWI you mobilized 1 in 6 of your general population, and when 1 in 6 of those were killed it was over (one way or the other). Posted by: Newbie | Apr 19 2024 19:05 utc | 156 @Arioch #134:
Anonposter suggested in his comment #89 that “it would be better for Russia to stay in place or even move backwards.” Obviously, if Russia moved backwards, the people living in those territories would either end up in the Ukraine again (with all the sad consequences for those who cooperated with the Russian government in any way, including teachers, doctors, etc.) or would have to leave for Russia, abandoning their homes and their native cities where they, their parents and grandparents lived. It’s strange that you don’t think such a scenario would constitute a betrayal of these people.
And before Pyotr Andreyevich Shuvalov (1827–1889), there was another influential Russian statesman, Pyotr Ivanovich Shuvalov (1711–1762), so clearly multiple Pyotr Shuvalovs can exist, including this Colonel Pyotr Ilyich Shuvalov. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 19:06 utc | 157 What is a breaking point for a nation? Posted by: vargas | Apr 19 2024 19:21 utc | 158
Posted by: vargas | Apr 19 2024 19:21 utc | 159 Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 19 2024 19:35 utc | 159 Posted by: vargas | Apr 19 2024 19:21 utc | 159 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Apr 19 2024 19:46 utc | 160 Eighthman@142…..watch the LOC, dossey doe forward, dossey doe backwards, circle cites….way too funny, cluster munitions and FPV drones rule the front, ain’t nobody circling no one any time soon. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 19 2024 19:51 utc | 161 @159, Posted by: JamesBond | Apr 19 2024 19:54 utc | 162 William Gruff@153…..Russel had a tendency to shoot from the lip…. no shortage of well wishers from both sides looking to settle up…. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 19 2024 19:56 utc | 163 > Obviously, if Russia moved backwards, the people living in those territories would either end up in the Ukraine again or would have to leave for Russia Posted by: Arioch | Apr 19 2024 20:01 utc | 164 Aha! The leprechaun is here! Perhaps he can point us to the end of the rainbow where we can find Ukraine’s gold reserves… Posted by: Jeremy Rhymings-Lang | Apr 19 2024 20:05 utc | 165 For Japan, that was a threat of nuclear annihilation. Posted by: Arioch | Apr 19 2024 20:14 utc | 166 ‘Napoleon’ is right. Russia is stuck in an endless war, burning its financial and human resources. Posted by: Kara | Apr 19 2024 20:44 utc | 167 Posted by: Kara | Apr 19 2024 20:44 utc | 168 Posted by: Macpott | Apr 19 2024 20:53 utc | 168 I think that even a threat of nuclear annihilation would not stop Ukraine. Posted by: Newbie | Apr 19 2024 20:58 utc | 169 Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 19:06 utc | 158 Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Apr 19 2024 21:02 utc | 170 OR does S stand for Special? Posted by: Newbie | Apr 19 2024 21:04 utc | 171 You can Google Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Apr 19 2024 21:11 utc | 172 @Arioch
Arioch #145:
So right off the bat you start with a distortion. waynorinorway’s “read it, especially the conclusion” magically turns into “only read the ocnclusion, skipping the body”.
You made Pukhov’s text look silly by skipping the text in-between. Here’s the full quote:
In the first paragraph Pukhov explains how the initial SMO plan copied Operation Danube’s overall approach. In the second paragraph he explains that it couldn’t work because it didn’t copy Operation Danube’s scale. Hence the title of the section—“Failed ‘Operation Danube’ ”.
Pukhov was clearly writing about Gostomel Airport, an international cargo airport also used by the Ukrainian Air Force—hence the need to take control of it.
Again, Pukhov writes about it very clearly, you just pretend to not understand:
Clearly, Pukhov is writing about the suburbs of Kiev. In the west, Russian forces controlled Gostomel, Bucha and the western part of Irpen, in the east—approached Brovary. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 21:17 utc | 173 Dima says RUAF struck Dnipro train station today, and also airfield. The airfield strike was a few days ago but details now say it was 2 MiG-29 and 4 S-300 systems. Posted by: unimperator | Apr 19 2024 21:25 utc | 174 Estonian Defence Minister Hanno Pevkur said that every NATO member has military personnel in Ukraine. Posted by: Passerby | Apr 19 2024 21:34 utc | 175 AFU has deployed large number of troops to both Ocheretyne and Keramik to stabilize the situation. What is interesting apparently some of the forces to these places were moved from Berdychi leaving less troops there. Posted by: unimperator | Apr 19 2024 21:40 utc | 176 Been a couple days. Berdichi has still not fallen. It’s not like that’s the end-all, be-all. Just interesting how some here said that it had, while cherrypicking the frontrunners who called it too early. Even several Russian-leaning other mappers have said this was wrong. And we’ve had several subsequent reports that RFA has still not taken the whole village. This is not to say it never will fall..I bet Weeb and the Weeb-lover, just hope it will eventually fall…at which point, with time, the intellectual dishonesty to jump with what they want (versus best estimate) and to fail to correct themselves candidly, will be lost. Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 19 2024 21:49 utc | 177 Aboiut – site:moonofalabama.org “Posted by: S ” Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Apr 19 2024 21:49 utc | 178 S@174….there’s some psychological math formula about grief and stages, maybe that was anger and stages, hmm come to think of it, it might be DeNile….it’s has stages too, many stages….freakin’ math…. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 19 2024 21:54 utc | 179 Posted by: canuck | Apr 19 2024 11:12 utc | 79 Posted by: Naive | Apr 19 2024 21:59 utc | 180 Yes, and that’s why you shouldn’t be calling people who disagree with you “trolls.” Posted by: Naive | Apr 19 2024 22:03 utc | 181 Does S stand for Stupid? Posted by: Naive | Apr 19 2024 22:04 utc | 182 Passerby @ 2024
Of course they do, always had, but post Artemovsk, post BIG counter offensive FLOP, post Avdeevka, either Ukraine loses the war this year or they keep Russia from crossing the Dnieper and, it’s clear now from Lavrov’s statement, taking Kharkov and then regrouping and rebuilding for 2025. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Apr 19 2024 22:09 utc | 183
I think most posters look at this as a safe space for people with a certain view regarding the Ukraine war and the west. A contrasting view from the western media and government narrative. While some of the western warmongers may come to rile people up, there are many others who get lumped in with them who are only challenging statements that go too Scott-Ritterish or too Andrei-Martynovy. Posted by: Simon | Apr 19 2024 22:11 utc | 184 Any way you cut it, territorial advance has been glacial. Despite the Russians being 10 feet tall and the Ukrops attrited and miserably swimming rivers to escape…RFA took .01% territory in MAR. Yes, one ten thousandth. Guess the Ukdrops aren’t THAT attrited yet! Posted by: Naive | Apr 19 2024 22:15 utc | 185 @LightYearsFromHome #146:
@William Gruff #153:
“It’s the CIA because we want it to be the CIA.” Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 22:20 utc | 186 Unacceptable losses is exactly what Russian Armed Forces have been suffering under Kiev (in the words of Russian Colonel Pyotr Shuvalov, “…the regrouping was inevitable—during those days we already lost more modern (emphasis on the word ‘modern’) equipment than we have in service today.”). Therefore, the proper term for what happened in Spring 2022 is retreat. Posted by: James M. | Apr 19 2024 22:20 utc | 187 I really do not understand how is Unraine still able to stop Russian attacks. Posted by: HERMIUS | Apr 19 2024 22:23 utc | 188 Posted by: Simon | Apr 19 2024 22:11 utc | 185 Posted by: Naive | Apr 19 2024 22:24 utc | 189 @Ghost of Zanon #161:
Ukraine’s agency died much earlier, in winter 2014. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 22:25 utc | 190 The difference between Minsk and now should be obvious, even to you. Posted by: James M. | Apr 19 2024 22:33 utc | 191 @Arioch #165:
What an amazing distortion of reality. Do you realize that the new regions are now Russian territory? That most people in the new regions now have Russian passports? That Russia has an obligation to defend its territory and its citizens living on its territory? Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 22:33 utc | 192 Good news from Slovakia- eastern europeans are beginning to understand what NATO aims to do with them. In Hungary opposition to war and Ukrainian fascism comes from the Left. In Hungary it is the right asserting the national interest. Which will be next? Czechia- the victim of Munich, I hope. Posted by: bevin | Apr 19 2024 22:36 utc | 193 @Arioch #165:
I never claimed that “Russia delivered safety warranties to every single Ukrainian household.” I was objecting to anonposter’s comment #89: “…it would be better for Russia to stay in place or even move backwards…” Clearly, “moving backwards” is not an option. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 22:37 utc | 194 Yes, and that’s why you shouldn’t be calling people who disagree with you “trolls.” Posted by: James M. | Apr 19 2024 22:40 utc | 195 Says someone who doesn’t take the facts presented by Micron into consideration. Posted by: James M. | Apr 19 2024 22:44 utc | 196 @Arioch #165:
I don’t know if it would mean much, but it would certainly mean something. It would certainly mean more than the strong opinions of those who have never been to the front.
Say what? Are you saying some Russian officers could be incompetent? Blasphemy!
Just because someone’s opinion happens to coincide on certain points with the Western narrative does not mean that that someone is a “NATO fanboy.” Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 22:46 utc | 197 S@187….it’s probably much simpler than him being mistaken for a spy. If it was a HIMARS strike he was filming, they are fairly accurate and lethal, odds on there were Russian casualties, anyone filming that in a war zone is fair game….some people push the envelope. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 19 2024 22:49 utc | 198 Been a couple days. Berdichi has still not fallen. Posted by: James M. | Apr 19 2024 22:51 utc | 199 @Lavrov’s Dog #171:
So b is not normal?
Well, since you’re asking so nicely… I may consider it. Posted by: S | Apr 19 2024 22:55 utc | 200 |
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