Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 18, 2024
Ukraine Open Thread 2024-053

Only for news & views directly related to the war in Ukraine.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

South-Slavic Croat tribes settled in Dalmatia in 7th century, after the Avars evicted the Romans.
Posted by: scanalyse | Feb 20 2024 4:23 utc | 365
Actually the Franks reported that Serbs were very numerous in Dalmatia. Also there was a lot of Catholicization of the Serbs of Dalmatia and other areas controlled by Catholic powers such as Venice and Vienna.
The “Croats” of Dalmatia and BiH are genetically different than those of northern Croatia, they are high in the I Haplogroup like Serbs and Bosnian Muslims. The peoples of Herzegovina are the highest in I.
The northern Slavs have predominately R1a Haplogroup.

Posted by: MiniMO | Feb 21 2024 2:42 utc | 501

Serbs were the most numerous in, at least, South Dalmatia in the 8th-12th centuries. The royal Frankish Annals were written in the very early 800s.
9th-century Royal Frankish Annals refers to Serbs “who are said to inhabit the greater part of Dalmatia”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Croatia
Next mention of Serbs comes from 1150 when Byzantine writer John Kinnamos…describes Bosnia as land of the Serbs. In his works, Kinnamos refers to Serbs as Dalmats due to the fact Serbs inhabited territory of the old roman province of Dalmatia.

Posted by: MiniMO | Feb 21 2024 2:46 utc | 502

Posted by: smuks | Feb 21 2024 0:33 utc | 499
—-
>>>>London is doing all it can to make the rift permanent.
London has been nurturing Russophobia since the Crimean War,1853!
>>>Ideology beats economics.
Disagree. Yes, ideologies and prejudices and historical hatreds certainly run deep in the hearts and minds of many people. But ultimately it is a gvt’s purview to make a country run for its expected standard of living, and that makes economics the ultimate driving force. And besides, didn’t XX Million German nazi sympathisers get over it in just one generation? Yes, there remained the dinosaur pockets, and there will always be political fascists.
But I think that once Ukraine (the nursery for neo-fascism and neo-Nazism in Europe) is completely whopped, EU trade links will be established again. After all, as we see now, Germany NEEDS Russia far more than Russia needs Germany. Lol.
I consider that this present “nazi rash” is overblown OUTSIDE OF Ukraine. Sholz, for example, is hardly a real deal nazi, just a hard right Russophobe and US dick-licker. In a few elections, or generations, the tides may have turned. Look at the kids today, tomorrow’s politicians. Are they likely to follow in 2024’s footsteps? I doubt it.

Posted by: Jake Blanchard | Feb 21 2024 4:00 utc | 503

@MiniMO | Feb 21 2024 2:46 utc |
The wiki page you linked to: Serbs of Croatia; does not support any Serbian rights to a seaport in Split, as Tobias Cole inserted in several of his comments here (Feb 19 2024 18:43 utc; Feb 10 2024 19:51 utc; and there were several prior), and to what I objected (Feb 20 2024 4:23 utc ).
As to the linked wiki page, thank you for it. I learned several historic facts which i didn’t knew before.
RE genome: yeah, “Balkan has more history than it can endure”.

Posted by: scanalyse | Feb 21 2024 4:37 utc | 504

Josepa | Feb 21 2024 1:12 utc | 501
I haven’t heard any figures for a while bud mediazona (Based in the baltics or poland) were thouughraly checking Russian obituaries and so forth. At one time they put out a figure shortly after or before Russia announced its casualties figures and both numbers were reasonably close so I assume the numbers put out by mediazona and the numbers put out by the Rus MoD are honest numbers.
There is another western group trying to asses Ukraine deaths in the same way.
Some time back, well before the great offensive, the numbers I remember were about 37’000 Russia, and about 370,000 Ukrainians.
Add to the Ukraine side the fact many bodies are simply left and declared MIA so the commander can keep collecting the pay and the state does not have to pay compensation to relatives. Recently a video cam out of Ukraine from the frontlines show them throwing the bodies of there own in a pit in a forest and filling in the mass grave with a farm tractor.
Another gauge of Ukraine losses is I think the General at that time saying they needed 20’000 recruits a month, then a Ukraine official saying they needed 30,000 recruits per month. That would give an idea of the number of Ukraine losses per month.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 21 2024 5:18 utc | 505

From the horse’s/Reuters mouth
Insight: Ukraine outnumbered, outgunned, ground down by relentless Russia
This is an early indication of a change in posture I suspect. While it recognizes reality and the need to negotiate, I expect that like Occupied Palestine protestations about Hamas, we are about to get to similar reactions about the delusional demands being made by Russia.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 21 2024 7:31 utc | 506

Just an “of-note”:
The couple; the Boeing P-8A Poseidon of the US navy is circling over the Danube river delta. St. Georges channel mainly, at the same time as Forte 13, in front of Sevastopol. Usually these two are signs of a new drone boat attack on Russian ships. (As has been remarked in many other tweets and posts, including by Russian bloggers)
I reckon that the starting point for attacks is NOT from Odessa or any point east, but from somewhere in the Danube delta. Whether this is on the Ukrainian side of the river or the Romanian one is yet to be discovered. Any deliveries of boat-drones from the UK could easily be sent downriver from higher up the Danube as “cargo” on small river traders.
****
Peter AU1 | Feb 21 2024 5:18 utc | 506
One interesting fact is that the Russians are claiming about 950 prisoners. Which is also a promising newby as several Uke Commanders are the ones that took the initiative to surrender, to save their wounded etc. Zele is reported to want their heads.

Posted by: Stonebird | Feb 21 2024 10:01 utc | 507

@508
I should have been more exact as that is 950 prisoners from Avdeevka alone. Including 58 from bunkers or cellars.

Posted by: Stonebird | Feb 21 2024 10:06 utc | 508

Regarding ratios of Russian wounded versus Ukrainian wounded, imo eventually the world will be faced with more evidence of just how horribly Ukrainian infantry was used in this war, and that far more of them will have to live with debilitating injuries than their Russian counterparts due to the inferior level of medical care they received, and the inferior conditions within their trenches and dugouts.
For example, the statistics will show x amount of Russian Federation and AFU soldiers suffering wounds to their legs, but the statistics won’t show how well those wounds were treated, and what percentage of each side respectively were able to make more or less full recoveries.
In short, a lot of permanently disabled AFU veterans are worse off than they would have been had their army not been run as if treatment of the wounded was an afterthought, and that speed and painkillers were a substitute for bandages and antibiotics.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Feb 21 2024 17:25 utc | 509

Regime change in Kiev? Asia Times weighs in
https://asiatimes.com/2024/02/regime-change-is-coming-to-kiev/

Posted by: JAB | Feb 22 2024 0:20 utc | 510

Scholz and Kristersson may soon consign the residents of Schrobenhausen, Linköping, and Karlskoga to a horrible fate. Blessed be the innocent.

Posted by: Matthew | Feb 22 2024 5:06 utc | 511

Posted by: tesla | Feb 20 2024 15:35 utc | 458
How many times does Medvedev and company have to remind everyone?
Russia will only fight a total war, entire population and economy on a war footing if the RF is threaten.
And RF will resort to nuclear weapons first.
Russia has no intention of engaging in a conventional war with NATO. What is it that prevents you from grasping that simple truth?

Posted by: Suresh | Feb 22 2024 5:21 utc | 512

Oh goody! Medvedev trolling again:
“Russia will have to keep fighting Ukraine until it takes its capital Kiev, since it emanates threat to Russia”, Dmitry Medvedev has said.
Well, that’s if Kiev doesn’t get the fkn hint first and take the wiser path of unconditional military surrender first!
Then he addressed Odessa, urging it to “return home”.
“We in the Russian Federation have long been waiting for Odessa, if only because of its history and what kind of people live there and what language they speak. It is our Russian city,” he claimed.
Oh how I love the way Medvedev taunts Kiev and the West with advance notice of where Russia will not stop until. He’s just put the allies on public notice for 2024. Hmmmm, so will they shit bricks and dig in deeper, or finally negotiate before the next phase and the shit really hits the fan?

Posted by: Jake Blanchard | Feb 22 2024 8:03 utc | 513

I understand many will not agree, but I remain steadfast that no matter what Russia does in Ukraine, even if they militarily totally defeat the Kiev regime and take every inch of Ukraine or whatever they choose – this War will not be over. Not until the USA itself is defeated on it own home soil.
I repeat also this war is not about Ukraine — it is irrelevant in itself — this is a proxy war, but too many are being distracted that if Russia can best Ukraine then ha ha ha ha it’s all over, Russia wins and the US / Nato are defeated and lose faith and their whole support crumbles. No they will all double down and the citizens of the West will also not give up … they will see Russia and China as more evil and threatening as ever.
Participants on MoA the people here and on similar sites are NOT the western Majority – you are not the Golden Billion – and you should pause to remember this every single day.
iow Putin cannot win this bigger war by simply defeating Ukraine’s military.
There will be no settlement and no peace agreement as asked for by Putin of the US and NATO in late 2021. It is not going to happen. The US elites, the Neocon / Neoliberal megalomaniac cabal will never stop. Why? Because they are literally insane (psychotic pathological narcissists) and utterly disconnected from reality and their humanity.
WMG posted this video on the Open thread. It’s one of many examples that explains why there will be no peace deal or sustained ceasefire over Ukraine and what comes next. I have copied and pasted a section that outlines to larger geopolitical dynamics being played …. but recommend you watch it all and the parts related with China and the US as well.
I’ll repeat something, Putin and the Russian leadership are deeply worried about what the US is willing and quite prepared to do and when … they are thinking about the US all the time 24/7 and they are self-constrained in what they are willing to do. In fact imo they don’t really know what to do … except try and cover all bases. But Putin is definitely confronted by what Russia is facing and he does not like it one bit. The Russians are rightly justifiably scared and extremely cautious about what they do each and every day. Very scared and so they should be. The US leadership cabal are mad and might do anything, and they will not stop at Ukraine win, lose or draw.
None of my comments are a complaint or criticism of Putin or Russia. Putin is not us or Carlson what he really thinks. What he fears, or what his weaknesses are. But a suggestion that very few if any are seeing this conflict clearly and what the long term portends. Or that Russia really do have their backs against the all here. They are not in a dominant position at all. Yet.
—————–
Former German General Harald Kujat at a public lecture in Germany how he destroys the false pro-war narrative of the neocons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U21-RrB8E6Q
from about 13 mins – and note this German General is shit scared as well about where things are at and heading longer term.

Harald Kujat …. the war in Ukraine has led Europe to a Crossroads this war is not only about the security and territorial Integrity of Ukraine.
it is also about a European security and peace order in which all states of the European continent have their place moreover the dramatic Economic Consequences of this war for Europe and especially for Germany are becoming increasingly apparent the starting point of a war is always a specific political constellation
I do not want to go into detail about the war in Ukraine this evening but it is important to understand that a war does not just happen for example Putin does not decide one morning at breakfast to invade Ukraine a war always has a long history and a war leads to a new political constellation.
the question of course is what this constellation looks like? should it be permanent if that is the case then it must be a solution that is politically agreed upon with both opponents and supporters. Therefore Clausewitz demands (and no lecture by a former officer is complete without Clausewitz) that politics must Prevail in a war and continue despite the hostilities this leads to a dual approach on one hand the necessity of a secured defense capability to defend one’s own country and on the other hand the effort to achieve a negotiated peace to end the war
BUT if politics and diplomacy are suspended as is the case in this war then the war as clausewitz defines it is an act of violence Without Limits. Everyone sets the rules for the other This creates an interaction that leads to the extreme what we today call escalation.
that is exactly what we have seen from the beginning the geostrategic position of Russia and the USA the two main actors in this war could not be more opposite. protected by two World oceans with an ally in the north and a friendly state in the South.
the geostrategic factors of space and time Play No role for the United States and they are also not vulnerable with conventional means the United States is an air and sea power in contrast for Russia because of its large land mass which is surrounded by many states and crisis regions space and time are of existential importance, also for historical reasons Russia strives for military security to a special degree
I have the impression that Russia is neither willing to shed its history nor can it Escape its geostrategic situation!
the Strategic turning point in the relationship between the United States and Russia was the year 2002 namely the unilateral withdrawal from the 1972 ABM Treaty on strategic missile defense systems which was enormously important for the nuclear strategic balance between these two superpowers.
at the same time a missile defense system was being built in Europe which Russia had to understand as a threat to the nuclear strategic balance with the United States

Don’t too cocky that another small city has fallen to the Russians and chaos seems to be the order of the day in the Kiev regime. This is far from over ………. even if Kiev is totally defeated, and that is not guaranteed at all. The Russians know this. They are not cocky or even confident.
If they can secure half of Ukraine, strike a ceasefire – tell me – what has changed geopolitically? How is Russia any more secure than it was in Feb 22 2022?
It is not more secure at all. The US NATO and the entire western alliance is still Russia’s deadly enemy.

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Feb 22 2024 9:42 utc | 514

con’t Former German General Harald Kujat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U21-RrB8E6Q

@ 26 minutes ….. a 10 year stabilizing Plan?
the critical situation in Ukraine has prompted the United States to develop a new strategy the Ukrainian forces are to go into Strategic Defense for the time being similar to the Russians last year the goal is to hold the territory still under their control from well fortified defensive positions and above all to reduce the high Personnel losses
this is intended to create the conditions for a long-term strengthening and greater endurance of the Ukrainian Armed Forces as well as for the economy they call this the four-phase strategy fight build recover and reform they are currently trying to bring this strategy closer to president zelinski and above all to convince him that in 10 years the ukrainian Armed Forces will have significant combat power and a high deterrent Factor
by the end of this year the combat power of the Ukrainian Armed Forces should be significantly greater than it is today however this means that the Ukrainian president would have to give up his goal of recapturing all territories occupied by Russia including Crimea because the front is to be stabilized where it is now this strategy which is planned for 10 years envisages that European allies undertake specific commitments for military and economic support
these commitments are to be defined in binding National documents and agreed upon in a bilateral agreement with Ukraine the 10-year commitment serves as a safeguard against the termination of support for Ukraine announced by trump – it is also intended to prevent a change of government in a European country from leading to a change of course
the United Kingdom has already signed a corresponding agreement with the Ukrainian government
the german federal government is also ready to enter into this 10-year support and assistance Commitment
if all NATO States follow this example it could amount to Nato membership through the back door at least in terms of collective defense under Article Five of the NATO treaty

This far from over …. Russia is one nation with only 144 million population against the West with a combined 1 Billion and the military might of the USA. It is not a pussy cat even if somewhat incompetent at times.

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Feb 22 2024 10:19 utc | 515

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Feb 22 2024 9:42 utc | 515

Posted by: Jake Blanchard | Feb 22 2024 10:25 utc | 516

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Feb 22 2024 10:19 utc | 516
I couldn’t agree more with your assessment. While the “West” may be on the back-foot for the moment, it’s foolish (for MoA’ers) to think they’re not planning for future aggressions, even, as you noted, the Kiev regime folds tomorrow. Putin is smart enough to know this. This is a long term battle that will probably take decades to shake out, and in trying to preserve its monopoly on power, the West will lash out in ways that are both incredibly dangerous and difficult to predict. I haven’t watched the video you lined above but look forward to doing so today. Thanks.

Posted by: KMRIA | Feb 22 2024 10:43 utc | 517

scanalyse | Feb 21 2024 4:37 utc | 505
I wouldn’t trust Wikipedia on such ‘contentious’ issues. It has a very strong anti-Russian bias, and by extension, also anti-Serbian.
That said, historical lands and borders are just that, history. Serbia would be better off with its own seaport, and had the partition been done in a legal, democratic way, would probably have got one.

Posted by: smuks | Feb 22 2024 13:52 utc | 518

Disagree. Yes, ideologies and prejudices and historical hatreds certainly run deep in the hearts and minds of many people. But ultimately it is a gvt’s purview to make a country run for its expected standard of living, and that makes economics the ultimate driving force. And besides, didn’t XX Million German nazi sympathisers get over it in just one generation? …
I consider that this present “nazi rash” is overblown OUTSIDE OF Ukraine. Sholz, for example, is hardly a real deal nazi, just a hard right Russophobe …

Jake Blanchard | Feb 21 2024 4:00 utc | 504
Complicated topic.
Firstly – no, German Nazi sympathisers didn’t “get over it in just one generation” – at least not the “true believers” (of which there were many). It’s just that old Nazis died, and a new generation grew up.
But what I meant is something else.
A competing ideology is a long-term political threat, i.e. threat to the ruling elite. So even if it’s economically negative (in the near future), governments will rather try to keep their ideology & narrative intact and isolate “heresies”, rather than open up and cooperate with those “on the other side”.
As for Europe today, Scholz is certainly neither Nazi nor russophobe. In early 2022, he was fresh in office, with zero foreign policy experience (afaik) and an idiot foreign minister, and maybe most importantly, he didn’t have Merkel’s authority in the EU. She was considered the “leader of Europe”, so governments across the EU would’ve acted differently if she’d been hesitant to support Ukraine (as Scholz was).
However, the Nazi threat in Europe (and North America) is, unfortunately, very real today, and it’s absolutely possible that it will destroy the continent (again). More and more people are hurting, economically, and as the saying goes, “the dumbest calves elect their own butchers”.

Posted by: smuks | Feb 22 2024 14:11 utc | 519

Suresh | Feb 22 2024 5:21 utc | 513
There are reason why, 1990′ US agreed to hold NATO in the west and that later some disputed Clinton moving NATO east!
During the cold war it was supposition among US soldiers in Europe that the big war would stay convention for low single digit days before one side of the other threw nukes! Then no expectation it would end there.
Nothing has changed other than NATO is now 2000 miles closer to Moscow.

Posted by: paddy | Feb 22 2024 14:17 utc | 520

Posted by: smuks | Feb 22 2024 14:11 utc | 520
—-
A fair enough perspective … given that youre German and I’m not :).
You must sense/see/know much more of an underlying remnant nazi sentiment in Germans that is apparent to us non-Germans. But are you talking REAL Hitlerian Nazism, or postmodern footbal-gang NEO-nazism, or just good old fashioned right wing fascistic authoritarian tendencies, or even the concept of populism itself? I appreciate the lines are often blurred. And you certainly have a deeper worry/paranoia of it than any other European I know. I mean, France might well swing Le Pen any day, but the country will hardly go hyper-nazi because of that. It could be a good thing for better Russo-Franco relations. And the Scandi rejection of open immigration (or Faragism in the UK) ain’t nazism either. Where’s your refernce point — 20 people in a street march in Maddison??? https://youtu.be/qTX-zCXIpzI
And you assess Scholz NOT as a Russophobe! Well, he does a brilliant job of acting like one in chorus with the rest! And what explains his blind eye to NS2? So perhaps you’re right — the ***US ideology*** trumps over economics — both home and abroad. Well then, the German people need to fix that and get back to their own good governance on economic principles. I get that ideologies range accros a spectrum and underlie most people’s worldview, but judging by parliamentary representation the world over, nazism is not about to make a big comeback. Not even in Ukro-Canada. Banderism in Ukraine is “our” immediate and most emergent enemy. My inkling is that once Ukraine is well and truly beaten, most Russophobes will return to normal!
You know, on a third reading of your post, I’m now convinced you must see nazis-under-the-beds. Is it that you are a rabbid commie and a fearful believer in a Fourth Reich resurgence?

Posted by: Jake Blanchard | Feb 22 2024 19:30 utc | 521