Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 23, 2024
Ukraine Can No Longer Win – It In Fact Never Had A Chance To Win

A former U.S. Colonel opines in The Hill:

Ukraine can no longer winThe Hill, Feb 22 2024

 Welcome to the club, I'd say, but its nearly two years to late for that. Ukraine lost the war on February 24 2022, the day the Special Military operation had started.

There never was a chance for Ukraine to win.

I will first let the Colonel recap the established narrative to then add my observations to it:

Two years ago, the Ukrainian Armed Forces defied expectations immediately. Days before Russia’s massive combined arms incursion, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley spoke for the U.S. military when he predicted to Congress that Kyiv would fall within 72 hours.

Many military analysts similarly predicted the Russian Armed Forces would quickly rout the overmatched Ukrainians. American leaders encouraged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to leave the country, lest Russian troops assassinate him.

These projections of immediate success for Russia misread the progress Ukraine had made in capability and readiness since Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea. They also overestimated the Russian forces’ readiness, air superiority, and command cohesion.

That is all – somewhat – true.

There were expectations that the Russian forces would quickly conquer Kiev and overthrow the sitting government. However, the Russians never applied the necessary manpower to do so. Pacifying and holding an enemy city in modern times generally requires abound 1 soldier per 40 inhabitants. When the war started Kiev had about 3 million inhabitants. Taking and holding the city would have required some 75,000 troops. But the Russian forces never deployed more than 40,000 troops into the general direction of Kiev.

Thus the military aim was not to take the city. It was to apply pressure to achieve a political aim.

Immediately after the war had begun the Ukrainian government had agreed to hold peace talks. Over the next weeks these were held first in Belarus and later in Istanbul. In late March, after Ukraine had agreed during the negotiations to not join NATO, Russia made the good will gesture of pulling its troops back from the capitol. But in early April the U.S. and UK intervened and pressed Kiev to abolish negotiations.

The western political and military leadership had simply misread the Russian aim, thought its military was weak and had come to the wrong conclusions.

That also happened in the following phase:

One year ago, all signs were encouraging. Ukrainian forces had been bloodied, but they held on to territory in the east in defiance of expectations. Successful counteroffensives allowed Ukraine to regain territory in the south. Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy defiantly declared the coming year one of “our invincibility.” American aid to the country offered a king’s ransom in artillery and anti-tank weapons through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, and the flow seemed unceasing.

Inspired by Ukraine’s stunning success against the much larger and more advanced military, the West galvanized behind Zelensky and his troops. Tragically, all these indicators led to unrealistic expectations.

Russia has started the war with its military structured in peace-time formations. It had only used its standing forces, not any conscripts or mobilized troops, to launch the Ukraine campaign. The main organizational structure of Russian troops at that time were the Battalion Tactical Groups.

Excursus: During Soviet times the military had the classic war-time structure of Divisions with 4 to 5 Brigades each of which each had 4 to 5 Battalions each of which had four to five Companies. Such structures require lots of people.

To save money Russia did away with the Division layer. The Motorized Infantry Brigades, consisting of one tank Battalion, two motorized infantry Battalions and two artillery Battalions, were shrunken into Battalion Tactical Groups.

About a third of the artillery and tanks formations were eliminated as well as half of infantry. Instead of some 4.000-4.500 soldiers in a Brigade formations the Battalion Tactical Groups had each kept only 2,000 men. The no longer manned and needed equipment was put into storage.

The peace construct of a Battalion Tactical Group was a lot cheaper than the people intensive Brigade structure but still had about 2/3rd of the original fire power. The idea had always been that, should a war happen, the BTG structure would be re-filled with mobilized men and restored equipment to again become a full-sized brigade. – End Excursus

It was not until August 2022, after the failure of another round of negotiations, that the Russian leadership decided to go on war footage. A mobilization was launched, equipment was pulled from storage and peacetime BTG formations were revived into full Brigade structures. The Division command layer was reestablished. All this required time and retraining. The war industry had to be set up to support a longer fight.

There is a saying: "The Russians are slow to saddle but ride fast." It can be applied here.

During 2022 to early 2023 the sparse Russian forces were required to use economy of force. Positions of less value were guarded by a minimum of forces (Kharkiv, Kherson). When those forces came under pressure the positions were simply given up. Defensive lines were build to guard more valuable ground.

By spring to summer 2023 the Russian forces had (re-)grown to full war power. The systematic destruction of the Ukrainian forces could finally begin.

As soon as the Ukrainian forces tried to challenge the revived Russian formations, most famously in their failed 'counter offensive, the got beaten the hell out of themselves. Pressed to produced more gains the political leadership of Ukraine demanded that its troops attack everywhere and never retreat.

That fitted the political Russian aim of demilitarizing Ukraine. Defending from well dug positions and with an increasing advantage of artillery and air power the Russian forces decimated attacking Ukrainian forces.

At the end of last year the Ukrainian military started to change its tactic. For a lack of forces and material it had to go into a defensive mode. The Russian forces, now fully equipped and battle ready, started their offensive campaign:

Today, the situation is grim. The fighting has slowed to a cruel slog that works to Russia’s favor. Ukraine runs low on troops and munitions, while Russia maintains both in plenty. The long-planned, high-risk, months-long Ukrainian spring 2023 counteroffensive failed, with Ukraine unable to regain territory seized by Russia. Support for Zelensky in Ukraine and the West has finally slipped. American aid is logjammed in Congress, and the U.S. seems tired of funding the war.

Over much of the past two years, following those predictions of immediate Russian victory, analysts and policymakers have gone in the other direction with a new set of misjudgments: that the Russian Army is a paper tiger; that the generals will turn on Putin; that Ukraine will bleed Russia out in Donbass.

The reality, two years in, is that there is no path to victory for Ukraine, at least not in the sense of pushing Russian troops back to 2021 lines of control. After Ukrainian troops abandoned Avdiivka following some of the war’s heaviest fighting — the most significant loss or gain by either side in nine months — almost all advantages accrue to Russia.

War, as seen by the Russians, is a slow process that requires that all elements, political, civilian and military, are synchronized. In that view winning this or that battle does not matter much. It is the long term approach that makes the difference. It takes time to achieve the steady state that over time creates victory. Only when that state is achieved can the real destruction of the enemy begin.

Russian forces are currently attacking in all directions. The Ukrainian forces lack personnel as well as munitions. It is only a question of time until the Ukraine has to give up and to seek peace under whatever unfavorable condition.

There never really was, and is no longer a way, to change that path.

The $60 billion aid package held up in Congress will not significantly change the future. This fight is a long haul one that will require additional aid. The spigot will close at some point — perhaps soon — turning off aid and sealing Ukraine’s fate.

The endgame in Ukraine is approaching fast. It may indeed come much sooner than many are today willing to admit.

Comments

As this is in the realm of speculation i’ join:
Putin stated there were systems based on new physical principles.
What if those new systems are in testing right now?

Posted by: kspr | Feb 23 2024 20:16 utc | 101

Sorry, but I don’t buy friendly fire in the shoot-downs of the A-50s. When have the Russians EVER fired on an AWACS style aircraft, except presumably their own? The Russians have never even fired on Global Hawks, the destruction of which wouldn’t even threaten western personnel.
No, the Russians are just eating the loss and pretending it is an accident so they don’t have to respond. I get that they want to avoid escalation, but escalation is going to happen anyway. Failure to respond guarantees it.
And here I thought Putin understood how street fights worked. Or maybe in St Petersburg you can be sucked-punched by your adversary but it will all just blow over if you walk away and pretend it didn’t happen. That’s absolutely not the way street fights work in the US. You offer your back to an opponent in an American street fight and you will get wasted. 100% guaranteed.
Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 19:54 utc | 90
Of course it all is bullshit that Russia supporters tell themselves to feel better. I support Russia but I don’t need to sugarcoat the ugly truth.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Feb 23 2024 20:16 utc | 102

In response to

And here I thought Putin understood how street fights worked. Or maybe in St Petersburg you can be sucked-punched by your adversary but it will all just blow over if you walk away and pretend it didn’t happen. That’s absolutely not the way street fights work in the US. You offer your back to an opponent in an American street fight and you will get wasted. 100% guaranteed.
Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 19:54 utc | 90

I feel your frustration but this is not a street fight and your saying Russia is turning its back is projection of your thoughts, certainly not the MAD reality of our global world.
I expect that if we all get wasted because of the God Of Mammon cult, it won’t be because we didn’t try to get along.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 23 2024 20:18 utc | 103

Johnny Dollar @ 93

The A50 was reportedly shot down in the Kanevsky district of the Krasnodar Territory of Russian Federation. If in fact the Ukrainians shot that thing down in that location, then it seems to me the NATO AWACS airplanes which operate in similar distant locations from the battlefield are fair game for the Russians.

It’s what the USA wants, they want to turn the SMO into a direct conflict w/ NATO, maybe that really is what the current Brilliant Triple Lutz war game is really about. My guess is they are striving for a Pearl Harbor moment to stir and solidify the flagging western publics. They likely have the media script over downed western AWAC and treacherous Russia already written and in the hands of thousands of news depts all over the west ready to roll out. I have no easy answer for Russia, they are in the shit with this “escalation escalator” thing. Putting people in the shit is the prerogative of the hegemon – till it lasts.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Feb 23 2024 20:18 utc | 104

“The A50 was reportedly shot down in the Kanevsky district of the Krasnodar Territory of Russian Federation.
If in fact the Ukrainians shot that thing down in that location, then it seems to me the NATO AWACS airplanes which operate in similar distant locations from the battlefield are fair game for the Russians.
Posted by: Johnny Dollar | Feb 23 2024 20:04 utc | 93”
It should be obvious by now that Russia is loathe to escalate, while the West is not. If Russia had wanted to shoot down western AWACS, it would have done so a long time ago.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Feb 23 2024 20:19 utc | 105

LightYearsFromHome @96:

Maybe they know what’s coming, that the USA is dead set on WW3, and Russia and her allies China and Iran need time. USA is on a timeline with regards to China, they think they can take it down but it has to be down much faster than they 7-10ys they calculated a decade ago. It’s all I can figure out, like the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that freaked out the communist international, Stalin was buying time.

That is believable, but the Empire of Chaos is most definitely in a hurry. They need Russia to kneel ASAP. These sucker-punches from the Empire will continue to increase in frequency until the Russians kneel or punch back. I cannot see the Russians pretending they are not under direct attack by NATO buying them a whole lot more time… maybe a few more months? Certainly not several years.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 20:25 utc | 106

The operational headquarters of the Krasnodar region clarified that only one aircraft fell in the Kanevsky district.
The wreckage shows an IL

https://t.me/geromanat/20912

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 20:27 utc | 107

The Russians have never even fired on Global Hawks, the destruction of which wouldn’t even threaten western personnel.
Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 19:54 utc | 90

Absolutely baffling. Russia took one surveillance craft down early on using some nifty tricks, but you’re right never fired upon.
A missile was fired in the general direction of a manned UK surveillance aircraft as well, over the Black Sea – if I recall correctly it was a close call but declared “an accident” or something.
Since the significant Russian successes of the last week+ including another Patriot system apparently recently taken out, I’ve been bracing for something like this. But it’s still a serious punch to the gut.

Posted by: Bye-bye A-50 | Feb 23 2024 20:29 utc | 108

Much like the withdrawal from Afghanistan was a US collapse rather than a Taliban attack.
Posted by: Mickey Droy | Feb 23 2024 16:34 utc | 5
Did not look like any collapse, they were preparing. They thought sanctions and war will ruin Russia and, as diaper man has said in Poland to his soldiers, they will go inside Ukr. They did not expect that Russia won’t be seriously affected but also did not expect Russia will be retrating non-stop or be stuck in Donbass either, with no damage done to 70-80% of (nato controlled Blackrock owned) Ukr. They are also expanding bases in Japan, Syria and other places, unlimited ammo and money for Bibi now. No problem. Afgh. probably wasn’t needed for the moment. They may go back if the boy wants free substances.

Posted by: rk | Feb 23 2024 20:30 utc | 109

🇷🇺 Update on the above (https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/102528). According to Na Marshe Z (@namarshe) – the plane was an Il-76TD. A Civilian variant of the Il-76 transport aircraft.
🐻 If confirmed this means someone did mess up. Either Russian AD going wrong or the US backed Kiev regime thinking they would hit a big one and hitting civilians instead. This war has a lot of smoke and lies thrown at it, and we do our best to sift it all, analyze it, and bring you quality news. We will keep you updated.

https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/102533

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 20:31 utc | 110

the pessimist @99: ” The question is what weapons system does Ukraine possess that has a range of ~150 miles (250km) that can strike an air target?”
Of course, the Ukraine has nothing that could have hit either A-50. These were direct attacks by NATO on Russia, just like the Moskva.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 20:32 utc | 111

Am I wrong or is HMS Ambush (Astute class) nearly as long as the locations of the explosions are deep? Style: cramped 🙂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine
By the way this is in a relatively busy international waterway (all the way since 1857! That’s 18 not 19).
I’m not saying it’s impossible but if NATO wants to use divers from subs they have smaller nimbler ones. Not that there is/was any need for divers or subs.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Feb 23 2024 20:35 utc | 112

Norwegian @110
I thought the aircraft that was downed was seen deploying flares. Would a civilian transport have IR flares?

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 20:40 utc | 113

@William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 20:40 utc | 113
Unlikely. Are we sure it was IR flares?

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 20:42 utc | 114

Gruff@111
Wrong. So far NATO has maintained plausible deniability. Providing weapons to Ukraine which they deploy on their territory is not the same as NATO directly attacking Russia. Is the US at war with Iran because they provide weapons to Russia? Is Ukraine? This is why Ukraine was fingered for NS2 – no one can officially complain.

Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 23 2024 20:42 utc | 115

Norwegian@114
Sure looked like it.

Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 23 2024 20:44 utc | 116

‼️🇷🇺✈️ On the territory of the Borets Truda farm in the Krasnodar Territory, the wreckage of an A-50U long-range radar detection and control aircraft of the Russian Aerospace Forces was discovered, which was shot down this evening during a combat mission in the zone of a special military operation.
The entire crew died.

https://t.me/ZandVchannel/101577

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 20:45 utc | 117

Phew. If that was really an IL-76, as much as I’m sorry for the people inside who died, it’s still a relief IF no A-50 was downed.
I would just like to point out that, as was the case with all the previous NATO weapons, F-16 are surely already operational. Or they will be very soon. Now, what should NATO try to achieve in preparation for putting F-16 into action ? That’s right, NATO should try to blind Russia’s A2AD complexes. What are they cornerstones of A2AD ? AWACS-type planes like the A-50.
I’m putting forth the theory that NATO is going to try all sort of dirty tricks to pierce the A2AD bubble, or push it back for the front, in order to create operational space for it’s F-16. And it’s going to try it ASAP. I don’t know how practically they will achieve it, by giving Ukraine its most advanced missiles, infiltrating operators in Russian territory, whatnot. But if I were in the Russian’s boots I would triple my precautions, especially now as the frontlines do seem to be crumbling a bit. NATO will pull out all the stops.

Posted by: Micron | Feb 23 2024 20:45 utc | 118

” All that will do is further steel the resolve of Russian troops and increase the idea that those being fought are Germans/Nazis, not Ukrainians. What it tells Russia’s leadership is Nazism wasn’t destroyed in Europe after WW2 as intended, and that job must be finished once and for all time, and that will have crucial bearing on European politics for years to come.”
Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 23 2024 17:47 utc | 38
It’s true. It hasn’t been eradicated in Canada either. But on to my whatabotism.
I seem to recall that it is illegal to be a Nazi organization member in Germany and yet somehow, their entire government is deeply in bed with a Nazi regime and sending them huge amounts of money and weapons and that’s legal?
Do I have that right?

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 20:49 utc | 119

The first video shows how the plane is desperately trying to avoid the attacks and shoots off heat traps, but anti-aircraft missiles still overtake it. Other videos show burning debris.

I thought the aircraft that was downed was seen deploying flares. Would a civilian transport have IR flares?
Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 20:40 utc | 113

The above Telegram quote is from Down South’s post #54.
Here we go with the fog of war and propaganda machines whirring into action. Sow doubts.

Posted by: Bye-bye A-50 | Feb 23 2024 20:50 utc | 120

I believe the NATO AWACS operate exclusively over friendly territory of NATO states. Shooting them down would be a game change escalation. Drones operate over the Black Sea. An attack on a Russian plane by a NATO asset would also be an escalation of a similar sort. Ukraine can do anything they want as they are in direct conflict with Russia – but what do they have that could do this? Sabotage of the IFF system could be a possibility – some setup to remotely shut it off or broadcast a “foe” signal.

Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 23 2024 20:51 utc | 121

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 20:49 utc | 119
you have that right.
we also have a law that prohibits “volksverhetzung”, ie inciting hatred against ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality.
and yet somehow, our government and media does not care as long as its directed against russia, people of russian descent, russian ethnicity.
its our german/eu values. doublestandards. hypocrisy.

Posted by: Justpassinby | Feb 23 2024 20:54 utc | 122

“:))) Hot Mossad girls are waiting for you on —– https://shorturl.at/never-click-one-of-these
Posted by: Amella | Feb 23 2024 17:52 utc | 44
Hmmmm. Israel’s economy is worse off than I thought…

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 20:58 utc | 123

the pessimist @121: “…but what do they have that could do this? Sabotage of the IFF system could be a possibility – some setup to remotely shut it off or broadcast a “foe” signal.”
The Ukraine has nothing that could accomplish this. The Russians have never fired upon such a “foe”, so even with IFF somehow hacked, Russian “friendly fire” is excluded. That leaves someone with the capability to hit targets from range, possibly from stealth aircraft, and someone with a demonstrated history of not really giving a shit if they are the obvious culprits (Nord Stream) so long as no court of law will dare convict them.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 21:08 utc | 124

Norwegian @110
William Gruff @ 113
Plenty of flares, not civilian:
https://t.me/vicktop55/21774
The US war against Russia.
“Russian Russians shot down a Russian plane again. A-50. Again. Again. Again. Comrades, the problem has a systemic level. The resource of these aircraft is almost non-renewable. The crew is a separate conversation. The highest specialists. You can’t bring them from Central Asia.” Eternal flight, guys.
I doubt it’s friendly fire, but we’ll see. I think NATO is knocking out Russian A-50 AWACS, which means ATACMS and TAURUS missiles will fly soon. There is no official information from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and it is unlikely that it will be

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Feb 23 2024 21:09 utc | 125

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 20:49 utc | 119
you have that right.
we also have a law that prohibits “volksverhetzung”, ie inciting hatred against ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality.
and yet somehow, our government and media does not care as long as its directed against russia, people of russian descent, russian ethnicity.
its our german/eu values. doublestandards. hypocrisy.
Posted by: Justpassinby | Feb 23 2024 20:54 utc | 122
In the West, laws apply only when persons of influence and authority decide that they apply. When important people decide that they don’t want the law to apply, then it doesn’t.
Straight up Carl Schmitt, except there isn’t a single Fuehrer. And Schmitt was more honest about it.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Feb 23 2024 21:11 utc | 126

This may seem OT, but it’s not: Vice News and Buzzfeed are apparently dead.
As I’ve said, the Tucker/Putin interview was a signal that the PTB are making a narrative change. Tucker, a CIA asset, lead the way toward a mass-market change in narrative. Now the organs completely committed to the old narrative are falling. The kinetic stage of the SMO is on the horizon.
Some established mouthpieces will flipflop. We’ve seen little movements from WP, CNN, WSJ. However, these organs are manned by useful idiots who cannot easily change course, and they are so big that changing course takes time. The need for a narrative change is imminent, however, hence Tucker. There will also be increased attention to the pathfinders of this operation, the relatively small-audience social media commentariat such as Larry Johnson, Colonel MacGregor, Judge Nap and many others. Scattered among these are authentic voices, but for most part, anyone with a largish following is a plant, cultivated over time for a situation like this. BECAUSE the reality of 2008 financial crisis was obvious and unavoidable since at least 2006/2007. These assets were established, or plans were made for them, at least that far back.
It’s a positive step from the POV of the authentic Resistance to imperialism that the PTB is seeking to turn down the heat and retreat from the brink of nuclear war, because we can’t win if we’re all killed. It is more important than ever, though, to be thoughtful, analytical, to understand the objectively real interests of different forces, and the objectively real constraints and available means to pursue those interests, because the Tuckers, MacGregors, Judge Naps and Larry Johnsons will try to shape the narrative to garner support for the PTB verion of the ‘solution’ to the problems they theymselves have created.
People want champions, saviors, heroes, and these have their roles, but the aforenamed sheepdogs are not any of those things, and it’s critical for the authentic Resistance to keep sight of that fact and examine everything they say with the same critical attitude they applied to the Old Narrative. Or, a more careful, analytical, reality-based critical attitude than before, that understands clearly who is leading this change in narrative, and can divine the true purpose of the details of the new narrative. Otherwise, ‘resistance’ is just pointless virtue signaling, meaningless yapping and trauma dumping.
Please, barflies, don’t let yourselves be sucked into the New Narrative. I’m sure a lot of you don’t need this admonition, but there are a lot commenters here who are bound up in their own ideological narratives, their own pseudo-psychological, racist and religious prejudices and world-views, who are very susceptible to being dragged into supporting the New Leaders, to their own and the world’s detriment. The New Leaders are the Old Leaders- the front men change, the public faces change, but the real power continues to be exercised by the same CLASS. And you aren’t in it.

Posted by: Honzo | Feb 23 2024 21:23 utc | 127

It’s almost pathetic at this point. How the f*** can you lose 2 very important planes in almost close proximity in less than 2 months? If it’s indeed own AD, again how is it possible? Is there no coordination between AD and those airplanes?

Posted by: JamesBond | Feb 23 2024 21:27 utc | 128

Posted by: marcel | Feb 23 2024 17:01 utc | 16
Big Serge is somewhat biased due to his anti-Sovietism as his avatar reveals. Plus, any good intentions notwithstanding, he isn’t a historian and often fails to grasp various factors that define the context and framework of certain historical developments.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 21:27 utc | 129

Are there flares on awacs? Why would you put flares on a big slow target? It’s as useful as a little machine gun on the tail. Anyway, the parts (quickly filmed) are said to belong to an Il-76TD.
But if ukros and ZH say it’s awacs then it must be so.
More interesting news to me is that Zeli is going to Armenia soon, just after Armenia announced they quit csto and that they plan to love the Macaron even more

Posted by: rk | Feb 23 2024 21:28 utc | 130

One of the claims over the new sanction package is that it being done over the death of Navalny. It would have taken months to draft up the new sanctions, how did they know Navalny was going to die?
BTW not more of same old same old, this is a nasty package as it targets countries and third parties dealing with Russia and targets the Russia professional managerial class, its young bourgeoisie, as Russians pretty much can’t travel anywhere in Golden Billion land anymore. The third party thing might prevent them from getting around sanctions as they’ve been doing easily enough through Turkey and Emirates. The point of course is to set the urban bourgeoisie, what is now in no ideology WEF speak called the PMC, against the state. Seeing how setting the oligarchs against Russia flopped it’s all they got, the rest of Russia, its working class has picked up guns and is defending their country, let’s hope the pansies direct their anger correctly, put down the e-scooters and macbooks, and join them.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Feb 23 2024 21:28 utc | 131

I believe the NATO AWACS operate exclusively over friendly territory of NATO states. Shooting them down would be a game change escalation. Drones operate over the Black Sea. An attack on a Russian plane by a NATO asset would also be an escalation of a similar sort. Ukraine can do anything they want as they are in direct conflict with Russia – but what do they have that could do this? Sabotage of the IFF system could be a possibility – some setup to remotely shut it off or broadcast a “foe” signal.
Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 23 2024 20:51 utc | 121
Shit happens. Nobody ever won a war without taking casualties, experiencing losses of men and capital assets, expending fungibles and resources, paying the opportunity cost of defense production, and so on. The fact is that Russian losses are very small, so any particular one seems proportionately bigger and more important. No doubt the Russians are also taking more casualties on the front lines, because their operations are becoming more aggressive, and that’s the price of offensive operations. None of these things are significant in themselves, but only in the context of the war as whole. That war is being won relentlessly by the Russians at great cost to Ukraine and the entire west. The loss of the whole Black Sea fleet would not change that, would not alter the course of the war. The loss of an AWACS plane will not change the course of the war, nor an SU35, etc, etc, and speculating about ‘why’ any of these losses occur when they do, without any useful amount of data, simply supports the western propaganda narrative. We won’t know the detailed, objective answers to these questions for decades, if then.
At this point, I consider anyone who engages in this kind of discourse to be either terminally naive, a troll or a useful idiot of the west.

Posted by: Honzo | Feb 23 2024 21:33 utc | 132

Was this shootdown (if it was that) one of Nulands recently advertised ‘surprises’?
https://news.yahoo.com/us-under-secretary-state-putin-191322922.html

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 21:33 utc | 133

Honzo @ 127
McGovern and Johnson are “ex”-CIA. Listening to them is attempting to read tea leaves from factions within the power structure. Thank you for skepticism.

Posted by: oldhippie | Feb 23 2024 21:34 utc | 134

On another note, NATO has almost certainly been the entity responsible for the downing of the AN-%0 aircraft and the lost of its crew, Apart from the humanitarian point, this was professional, rained personnel.
Every indication and statement coming from the NATO scum shows a resolute desire to escalate in order to inflict sufficient cost to Russia so as to blunt the destruction of the AFU. The cost will be obviously born by the troops and no amount of glorification of the victims is an excuse for not stepping up to make it clear to NATO that retaliation will be forthcoming. IF the latter can waste Russian military personnel and material posing as AFU, Russia should be ready to return the favor.
Armchair warriors who play tough and smart on the skin of the troops directly exposed to lethal attacks by NATO forces can go eff themselves.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 21:36 utc | 135

Ukraine was never supposed to win on the battlefield. it’s the sanctions that were supposed to completely destroy the Russian state and topple Putin, because they did believe Russia was a failed state with the GDP of Italy. Just like Hitler they thought they could kick the door in and the whole rotten structure would collapse, except they are not even capable of giving a kick, so to speak, it’s just financial, bureaucratic measures with the Ukrainians doing the physical part.
Posted by: abel | Feb 23 2024 17:23 utc | 24
I don’t know who ‘they’ is supposed to refer to here, but it cannot refer to the real leadership of the west, the active element of the finance capitalist ruling class. That simply doesn’t make sense, because their business, their interests, their lives depend on following the real movement of the global economy. They are not stupid, but people who think they are, are.
The sanctions war was and is a war against Europe. The US now completely dominates EU, the satraps have no room to maneuver- as long as they can be isolated from Russia and China. The cold war will replace the hot SMO- by design.

Posted by: Honzo | Feb 23 2024 21:39 utc | 136

@Honzo | Feb 23 2024 21:39 utc | 136

The sanctions war was and is a war against Europe.

Correct.

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 21:48 utc | 137

This increase in hit behind the lines since the brits took the lead in the war against Russia –
Two purposes as far as I can see. The first is to create anger at Putin prior to the elections, the second is to provoke Russia into striking at a Nato country or asset so Britain can push all of Europe into direct conflict with Russia.
With the missile strikes against aircraft, there have been several long range strikes. Two options – US or UK do a have a longer range system or interceptor they are keeping quiet about, or they have an S-300 that is saved and used for just this purpose.
Ukraine bullshits and Russia says nothing, but it is obvious the Brits are conducting strikes against major assets behind Russian lines or as in the case of the Black Sea, in international waters.
I guess Russia has to balance the costs of escalation with the cost of not expanding the war and awaiting the inevitable economic and social collapse of UK and Europe at which time the entities of both Nato and EU will disintegrate.
My guess at the moment is that Russia will absorb hits while also increasing defences against them, perhaps work more on knocking out UK assets in Ukraine that are launching these strikes. and limit the hot war to Ukraine for some time.
When Nato first used HIMARS, Russian air defences were not properly calibrated for then and many got through – as with the bridges in the Kerson area. I believe it took two software updates for Pantsir units to get a 100% kill rate on HIMARS missiles and now we hardly hear of them. But that took some months.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 23 2024 21:50 utc | 138

@William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 20:40 utc | 113
Unlikely. Are we sure it was IR flares?
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 23 2024 20:42 utc | 114
https://www.twz.com/35346/watch-these-russian-il-76-transports-execute-a-stunning-mass-flare-dump
Doesnt proove if flares were used, but IL variants are capable of.

Posted by: 600w | Feb 23 2024 21:55 utc | 139

Posted by: JamesBond | Feb 23 2024 21:27 utc | 128
It’s practically impossible that the Russian AD did that. As William Gruff correctly pointed, they have never done any such thing against even unmanned NATO assets.
This is further escalation as the preparation for the use of long-range precision missiles is one the way. This is the problem with those supremacist western lunatics: they don’t get it unless they feel the fire to some extent. The Russian government is mired in legal autism which serves no purpose whatsoever and claims a moral pedestal on the steps of which plenty of Russian troops and civilians lie dead, without even including pro-Russian Ukrainians.
At the very least, the Norwegian pipeline should have gone the NS2 way. Unmanned surveillance planes should have been downed by now. The threat of incinerating individual NATO camps should have been hanging over heir heads. Instead, wherever NATO ISR is involved, it becomes a shooting gallery for the troops. No mention of civilians, whose murderers will never be put on trial.
The attack on Engels, a direct violation of norms regarding the nuclear triad, was a warning bell. Now, the misanthropic Anglo-American imperialists feel they can escalate with impunity. After all, it is always just “the Ukrainians”, “friendly fire” and other such horsecrap.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 21:56 utc | 140

” If it’s indeed own AD, again how is it possible? Is there no coordination between AD and those airplanes?”
Posted by: JamesBond | Feb 23 2024 21:27 utc | 128
I find it even more astonishing in that I thought the purpose of those systems was to also provide data to air defenses.
I agree, how is this possible? Heads are going to roll… yup, heads are going to roll.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 21:56 utc | 141

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 21:56 utc | 141
Do you honestly believe this was “friendly fire”?
The only heads rolling for this particular set of events should be of NATO personnel, on the culdron of thermobaric judgement.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 22:00 utc | 142

“The endgame is approaching fast”. Thank goodness for that. One thing this war has accomplished for me personally is complete disillusionment with and contempt for our western politicians

Posted by: Ike | Feb 23 2024 22:04 utc | 143

Constantine | Feb 23 2024 22:00 utc | 142
No that just can’t be. But if true you can understand my joke. What I think is that there are either partisans or far more likely CIA and MI6 operatives behind the lines. With a couple of ukrainians along just in case things go south.
What I don’t know is what they would be able to pack in that would take down something at that altitude?

Posted by: David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 22:04 utc | 144

Now that we’ve (hopefully) passed the ‘end of the beginning’ (if, alas, not ‘the beginning of the end’), I’m concerned as to ‘what comes next’. The psychopaths ruling over us are nothing if not resourceful, and their survival instinct is such that no excesses of ruthlessness and venality would be considered unacceptable. As such, when Russia finally exposes NATO and the western governments (and their acolytes across the globe) as being ‘style over substance’ and without the capital, industry, economies, or intellect to defeat Russia (let alone China), will there be a genuine period of self-reflection and awareness? Or will the circus move-on and the whole events of the SMO be memory holed? If the former, I fear that it won’t result in an enlightened (or, even, pragmatic) revision of policy, where healthy and respectful accommodations are sought with the rest of the world. Instead, will there be (to my mind) a nightmare scenario where they don’t question the folly of their ideology, but instead seek to overcome the structural flaws in their military-industrial complex(es) by investment in state-owned manufacturing of more innovative and effective ways of killing people (removing the leeches of the private sector) and, also, adapting their military thinking to capture the contemporary reality of fighting a war? In essence, will the lesson they learn from the defeat of the Ukraine be that it’s better to avoid war with Russia, or that, for the next round (whenever that might be) they need to up their game?

Posted by: Ignoranceisbliss | Feb 23 2024 22:06 utc | 145

Posted by: abel | Feb 23 2024 17:23 utc | 24
Ukraine was never supposed to win on the battlefield. it’s the sanctions that were supposed to completely destroy the Russian state and topple Putin,…
Exactly.
Few now talk about The SanctionsFromHell ™️ but that’s why USNATO also went into this ill-prepared to take on Russia military, and thought it a good opportunity to clear their cupboards of old junk while waiting for the sanctions to work their magic.
Muscovites denied McDonald’s would mutiny within a month and in a panic-rage at the loss of western goodies, storm the Kremlin.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Feb 23 2024 22:06 utc | 146

No, the Russians are just eating the loss and pretending it is an accident so they don’t have to respond. I get that they want to avoid escalation, but escalation is going to happen anyway. Failure to respond guarantees it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 19:54 utc | 90
I don’t doubt you’re right. I suspected f-22’s out of Romania shot down those SU-34’s near Kherson a couple of months back. Turns there are a LOT more patriot batteries in Ukraine than the media tells us and one was operating in Kherson after all.
You’re also right … Russia doesn’t want escalation but now is where we begin to disagree. I believe Moscow is on the right path by being patient and absorbing the punishment.
Russia doesn’t have a goose that lays golden eggs or a magic printing press.
If you look at Russia’s military budget they spend enough to maintain a strategic defence and the backbone of an army … the only country on earth that can afford a strategic defence AND a standing army that can project power worldwide is the USA and only because they have a magic printing press. However that printing press is running out of magic smoke as the USA is $35T in debt, they have $10T in bonds maturing this year that pay under 1% interest at present but will have have to pay at least 4.5% when they roll over … that is IF there is a market for them at all. The last few bond sales haven’t gone well. Americans are finally going to have to start living within their means.
Russian OTOH is resource rich, has excellent cash flow due to an abundance of marketable raw materials and very little debt. Russia did a lot more than invade Ukraine 2 years ago. They signed a large number of strategic trade deals with China on the eve of the SMO that included the modernization, networking and automation of their manufacturing. Just the other day I read about massive Russian purchases of advanced CNC mills from China. Russia is tooling up for war. You can see it already in Ukraine and if the past is any indicator they will build a massive military force at a time when the USA is struggling with recruiting with an aging air force and navy and the magic printing press running out of smoke.
Russia is smart to take it on the chin for the moment … their time will come. there is that old dictum about “choosing the time and place of battle” I’m sure they will have their day.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Feb 23 2024 22:08 utc | 147

According to Dima in the Avdiivka area, Stepove has fallen and Berdychi is next. Plus the Russians are in Severne and the Ukies have left the village and retreated to Tonen’ke. And the Russians are advancing on Orlivka. The front is giving way with the Russians driving westwards, with open space behind these fortified villages and towns. Also, Pervomaiske will be undermined from the flank. The Ukrainians are so desperate they are now even throwing the US Abrams tanks into the front line.
Also, the Russians got to the edge of Krasnagorivka which has been a hard nut to crack until now. Now that town is being FAB’d prior to the assault on the town. In addition the storming of Ivanivske in front of Chasiv Yar is ongoing now that the Russians have reached the edge of the town.
Also, a lot of FAB and missile strikes on the Ukrainian rear areas. All of the fortified towns and villages being taken out of the equation prior to any Spring offensive. The Ukie losses must also be horrendous given how much they are fighting for every metre of land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJdmLch3kFc

Posted by: Roger | Feb 23 2024 22:09 utc | 148

David G Horsman | Feb 23 2024 20:49 utc | 119–
Yes, you’re correct as someone already chimed-in. Politically, ridding the planet of Exceptionalism is the fundamental basis for the Big Picture Conflict. Escobar’s newest focuses on the portion of that conflict that’s ongoing in West Asia, “The Axis of Asymmetry takes on the ‘rules-based order'”.
At the G-20 Presser, Lavrov minced no words and stated that the Outlaw US Empire is “directly” waging war on Russia, meaning that Russia harbors no illusions about the nature of the conflict it’s involved in. What we do know about is NATO hasn’t the forces to defeat Russia, not in 2014, 2022, or today. Someone upthread didn’t know that Russia decidedly intervened in 2014–that’s how it got Crimea back. A big event happened in Germany yesterday when the provision of Taurus missiles to the UkroNazis was defeated almost 3-1 while a smaller aid package was narrowly approved. Most NATO nations have very little remaining to give, while the Outlaw US Empire has much but doesn’t send its many Abrams and Bradleys; the question is why? Zelensky just purged the upper command levels of his military; why and on whose suggestion? There’re reports that Ukie society is now battling the government to keep their men from being press-ganged into a grave; how’s that scuttlebutt going to affect the troops on the line as they’ll find out soon enough?
Without their accustomed air cover and artillery support, how well will “sheep-dipped” NATO troops perform? IMO, they won’t do any better than the Ukies, and they have no nation to fight for as motivation. Romania and Poland must be very apprehensive about being used. I wonder what polling says about their public opinion on that question. My wife continues to discover ever more dissent on US social media regarding both wars and the nation’s fucked-up nature. Ferment is rising and war production continues at a snail’s pace despite more appropriations.
IMO, the Deep State elites will continue the war until it’s 100% lost as their goal now appears to be to attrite Russia’s military as much as possible. That’s why there’s no peep whatsoever about negotiations coming from the Outlaw US Empire. Z’s “formula” will continue to be dithered with, but that’s just propaganda for the uninformed, which is a dwindling number daily.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 23 2024 22:10 utc | 149

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 19:54 utc | 90
Look it is not what I would like to say, but the evidence is pointing to a treasonous cell down in the Black Sea area. I think it is probably air force based or possibly naval. This is of course not surprising – there are ALWAYS such cells.
We know of the defecting helicopter pilot, now “terminated”
There was something very fishy about the planes lost in the Prizoghin uprising – some I suspect (not all) were taken out by traitors
Prizoghin himself obviously turned traitor. Yes I know we all thought (hoped) it was a planned deception but the evidence points otherwise, especially since his er “termination.” He was after all a mercenary – and as GRRM pints out they are for sale.
Just a few too many ships lost in the Black sea – starting with the Moskva.
Loss of at least three planes by “friendly fire” – tell me another one!!!
Now I suspect the Russian government/military is well aware of this and is chasing the suspects. I would expect the number of internal attacks to increase for a short time as the traitors shoot their stuff and get out quickly to claim whatever financial reward they expect. The death is Spain was a warning to potential traitors – “you can run but you can’t hide”.

Posted by: watcher | Feb 23 2024 22:16 utc | 150

Thus the military aim was not to take the city. It was to apply pressure to achieve a political aim.
I think it was a military aim.
Posted by: Mickey Droy | Feb 23 2024 16:34 utc | 5
Political and military aims can’t really be separated in war – according to Clausewitz. In this case the political aim – a Ukraine guarantee of demilitarizing and not joining NATO, according to the agreed document in April 2022 – would have solved the military issue, the shelling of the Donbas.
The gambit worked, until Boris Johnson scuttled it.

Posted by: James M. | Feb 23 2024 22:17 utc | 151

Not only the losses are a problem but the fact that pictures/videos are circulating online (most of them coming from the RU side) /some Russian bloggers have a tendency to write about these losses without mentioning any credible sources (like Fighter Bomber or others often do) only makes things look incompetent on the Russian side.
You either try to be hones, admit losses and make some through investigations in order to not repeat the same mistakes over & over or go full radio silence as Ukraine is doing without ever admitting any losses (but need another batch of 500k meat shields).

Posted by: JamesBond | Feb 23 2024 22:17 utc | 152

I’d say NATO is doing a wonderful job hitting Russia where it really hurts and where Russia cannot retaliate.

Posted by: Surferket | Feb 23 2024 22:20 utc | 153

It should be obvious by now that Russia is loathe to escalate, while the West is not. If Russia had wanted to shoot down western AWACS, it would have done so a long time ago.
Posted by: Feral Finster | Feb 23 2024 20:19 utc | 105
Neither side want to escalate. The west certainly doesn’t, as, in reality, theyre not under any threat from Russia. So they have a hell of a lot to lose if a nuclear conflict breaks out. Similarly, the US. They have a lot to lose. Their societies will be wrecked irretrievably.
Russia does not want to escalate either. But for Russia, the advancement into Ukraine of NATO is an existential threat directly to them. Imagine NATO in Ukraine. Imagine the russophobes in Kiev being handed the power to attack ethnic Russians in the east and being able to call on NATO involvement if Russia retaliates. IMAGINE THAT! It doesn’t even bear thinking about.
No wonder Russia had to act to stop such a situation materialising.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Feb 23 2024 22:24 utc | 154

Here’s a bit of Heresy for y’all to ponder:
Of course Ukraine COULD HAVE WON the war. But only if the US/NATO has been willing to go for broke, starting with air cover and CAS of Ukie ground ops. Didn’t happen because US/NATO leadership is a collection of wuss-bags. Terrified of Russian reprisals, which would have come. It WAS theoretically possible.
But every US politician still has nightmares about body bags coming back from ‘Nam.
Not that I mind; I don’t want my kids bleeding out for Biden’s bank account.
So then we did the dumbest thing ever, kicked Russia out of SWIFT, and gave up the only weapon we really had, the USD. And now I’m supposed to get worked up over some flunky who died in prison?
Fuck the International Adventurism, we have enough to keep us busy over here.

Posted by: OldFart | Feb 23 2024 22:26 utc | 155

Honzo @ 127
It’s OT but it’s a valuable tangent. The old media had me bamboozled for half my life, wasn’t till Gulf War One that I had a WTF moment, and GW2 was the shot of naloxone that got me out of my BBC, NYT, McNeil-Leher, NPR coma. I grew up during Vietnam and thought the MSM was on my side, maybe that was part of the con too, but the SMO was when I went cold turkey and cleaned up completely, haven’t touched a newspaper since, got rid of the TV. Every now and then I find a newspaper on a cafe table, give it a turn to kill time, and like an alcoholic on Disulfiram I get severely nauseous. Can’t even use the damn things to line the cat box anymore.
I agree with you, if old media proved such a well crafted insidious but transparent trap I’m sure new media is too or being constructed to be. Oddly, the more educated you are, the more valuable to the system, the better the trap works, “I read the NYT everyday, I’m too smart to be bamboozled!” It’s like a Chinese finger trap, the harder you pull the more it holds you. My quirky non university educated friends through COVID and the SMO proved to be way smarter than me.
I noted as you did how all the voices of reason, Carlson, MacGregor, Crooke, Ritter, Johnson, McGovern, etc etc are all ex military, intelligence, or both. Granted, it takes a thief to know a thief, and repentance is a rare but not impossible virtue, and you can’t go through life suspicious of everything, you have to grab onto something communal, but all the new media pundits guiding us are all ideology and movement free, no philosophies, no leaders, no parties, none of the historic foundations that made revolutions or simple change possible in the past. No hard work of organizing, no meetings, no risk to life or health other than getting canceled, just a lot of talk into the digital ether.
That said, for now I still trust the crowd mentioned above, but I sleep with one eye open. If old media was such a perfect, seamless con I’m sure whatever they are replacing it with will be just as invisible to me. I’m also older and wiser, that’s also part of the con, once you start catching on you have a few decades before you croak. That little bugaboo has been exploited perfectly for the last 10,000 years.
I do trust Jimmy Dore unconditionally, am I allowed that? He’s the son, grandson and brother of cops, his bullshit detector must go to 11.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Feb 23 2024 22:27 utc | 156

Regarding the downed plane, based on the videos southfront has up and taking them at face value, it seems clear it was a missile attack of some sort, as they were letting go flares like crazy and saw it coming. Southfront concluded it must be friendly fire, but the plane seems very low to me (such a plane is designed to be at 20,000 ft where it is a mere spec, no?).
How hard would it be to get a MANPADS into the hands of a traitor/infiltrator in Russia, along with some NATO channeled intel on where and when to go and hit “fire?” Get it when it comes in for a landing.

Posted by: Moonraker | Feb 23 2024 22:28 utc | 157

We are probably seeing new NATO weapons authorized to be used in Ukraine. In conjunction with the new sanctions that hit some intermediaries in third countries, sending a message for the others. A lot depends on if and how Russia adapts to these new developments. Losses in the Black Sea and deep rear can accumulate plus also weaken Russias position internationally.

Posted by: alek_a | Feb 23 2024 22:29 utc | 158

Excellent as usual, thanks B. What’s remarkable is that the idea that Ukraine COULD win was ever seen as viable.
“This train wreck was long predicted, and the obvious outcome of choosing to fight Russia with an overmatched proxy adjacent to the Russian heartland. Any unbiased assessment of the strategic and tactical wisdom of this effort would have judged it as disastrously ill-conceived.” https://open.substack.com/pub/ourimperialpress/p/the-suicidal-idiocy-of-the-western?r=nv5i&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Posted by: muttman | Feb 23 2024 22:29 utc | 159

I doubt Russia wants to push on the open door, rather (as b suggests) this will be a Ukrainian collapse. Much like the withdrawal from Afghanistan was a US collapse rather than a Taliban attack.
Posted by: Mickey Droy | Feb 23 2024 16:34 utc | 5
The will to fight – actually the glue that holds a military together – was gone in Afghanistan. There was a power vacuum and the Taliban had to fill it. If Ukraine collapses like Afghanistan Russia would have to fill the power vacuum, and in that case Ukraine ceases to exist.

Posted by: James M. | Feb 23 2024 22:35 utc | 160

Look it is not what I would like to say, but the evidence is pointing to a treasonous cell down in the Black Sea area. I think it is probably air force based or possibly naval. This is of course not surprising – there are ALWAYS such cells.
Posted by: watcher | Feb 23 2024 22:16 utc | 150

Even if there are no cells, if critical personnel such as A-50 pilots are afraid to fly, it becomes untenable to maintain cohesion. A rebellion at those levels, including the navy, would be fatal.
It’s potentially another aspect of the psychological war the US is playing. One by one and at will, pick apart these important assets and sow fear internally in some of the most essential areas.
It’s beyond simply losing another A-50 if all you think is “It’s just another jet. Meh to be expected.”. It’s brutal mental games at the highest most critical levels.

Posted by: Bye-bye A-50 | Feb 23 2024 22:38 utc | 161

Peter AU1 | Feb 23 2024 21:50 utc | 138–
I think your hypothesis is correct; the degree of Bojo’s venom–level of hatred for Russia–gives the game away. Just because the UK has problems with their big ships doesn’t mean the still don’t excel in what some would call the small things.
Roger | Feb 23 2024 22:09 utc | 148–
Thanks for your report. With Ukie artillery mostly neutralized and AFVs equipped with anti-drone cages and the newest EW devices, IMO quicker, deeper Russian advances are possible. If local AD is deemed suppressed enough, we’ll probably see mobile air assaults used in these open ground movements. With most Ukie troop formations pressed so close to the FEBA, it will be possible to envelop many with such moves unless they fall back fast.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 23 2024 22:39 utc | 162

Posted by: HERMIUS | Feb 23 2024 22:24 utc | 154
The issue here is your definition of escalation. When NATO personnel and ISR is directly involved in the infliction of serious losses on the Russian forces and civilians (a fact now OPENLY acknowledged by the Kremlin), this should be treated as an unacceptable escalation. Try to consider whether the reverse would ever be conemplated.
It seems to me that the litmus test for western escalatory activity was the attack on the Engels airbase that damaged strategic bombers that belong to the nuclear triad. Once Russia took that like a chump as one more “Ukrainian provocation”, it indicated that it would put up with far more crap from the usual suspects. And this is precisely what has been happening ever since.
It has gone so bad that even Scandinavian liberal lickspittles have become so cocky and overconfident that they openly and overtly participate in a war that aims to the annihilation of Russia. At the very least the should have seen the destruction of the Norwegian pipeline to Poland.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 22:45 utc | 163

on sky news David Cameron at UN backed up EU foreign minister cronies… still in denial and ignoring the fact that Boris Johnson sabotaged draft peace process….still delusional .still asking why did Russia”invade”.Ukraine must be supported to win etc …may because BoJo and Biden and EU have sabotaged all peace processes but no one in the west asks that wuestion.

Posted by: Jo | Feb 23 2024 22:46 utc | 164

A very sober and utterly correct assessment dear Bernhard. I note that you called it two years ago, and I agreed with you as much then as I do now. I also particularly agree with the way you conjure Western military blindness and its failure to understand Russia and the unfolding strategic situation across 2022. No deep-state conspiracy, no 5-D chess, just inflexible dogmatic thinking and incompetent diplomats misreading Russian intentions through stereotyped incomprehension of the reality. If there is any value to be extracted from the fiasco it is the revelation of the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the entire Western policy-making establishment. And yet still the Guardian cannot bare to face the truth, at least not while one Ukrainian is still left alive…
How, indeed, all of this might have been avoided if the US and the UK hadn’t turned Ukraine into a failed shithole state in the 90s. The tragedy of this event stretches back there, to the way Russia and Ukraine’s paths split once Russia gained a leadership for Russia while Ukraine lost itself in a dysfunctional feudal mafia labyrinth. Putin’s crime in their eyes was to govern for Russians—as it was Saddam’s crime, Gaddafi’s, Assad’s—and, might I add, Kennedy’s, Whitlam’s, and all the other leaders who sincerely wanted to steer their nations away from predation by rent-seeking global capitalism.
But it is the the West’s civilization claim that is in tatters. I only hope I live long enough to see the Ukrainization of it all, although some here would argue that’s long since been taking place…

Posted by: Patroklos | Feb 23 2024 22:47 utc | 165

Armchair warriors who play tough and smart on the skin of the troops directly exposed to lethal attacks by NATO forces can go eff themselves.
Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 21:36 utc | 135
———–
That snacks me as more than a little ironic considering what else you’ve posted.
As for the plane I’ll reserve judgment. We’ve seen all this piss & wind in particular before.
Then it turns it never happened, wasn’t what was described in terms of numbers/type. Or recycled stuff did happen ages ago.
Of course, none of this cute NATO f**kery could change he fact that thier best best army is getting methodically beaten to death.
Nor the fact that lack the means to take Russia head-on, given that the RF military is getting stronger overall over time, as the mainline NATO continue to slowly whither.

Posted by: Urban Fox | Feb 23 2024 22:48 utc | 166

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2024/02/23/sea-of-azov-possible-sam-interceptor-kills-second-russian-a-50/
A balanced article from bulgaria concerning the loss of the a50.

Posted by: 600w | Feb 23 2024 22:51 utc | 167

Posted by: Bye-bye A-50 | Feb 23 2024 22:38 utc | 161
Right on point. This is something many commentators seem incapable of grasping: the extremely harmful effect on morale that lethal attacks on the rear and on critical assets are executed by NATO with effective impunity. People who are ACTUALLY exposed to such attacks are adversely affected and there is no sugarcoating to it.
In a somewhat similar fashion, this was also the aim of the terrorist attacks against individuals like Dugina and Tatarchev: to dissuade others from activist participation in the service of the war effort.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 22:51 utc | 168

@ 92 oldhippie
you are right in that a number want this madness of war to continue.. i guess that is always the way…
@ 118 micron…. very good post and insights.. i agree with you.. it appears @ peter au does for the most part too..
@ 150 watcher…. interesting conjecture.. you might be right..
everyone else…. an interesting conversation..thanks

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2024 22:52 utc | 169

I don’t want to sound like the shitty concern trolls, but I do want to get this out there.
NATO will be/is moving long range missiles into the Ukraine. They will strike targets deep in Russia. What do you suppose NATO will target? Airfields? Maybe. Critical industries? Perhaps. Nuclear power plants? Definitely.
You’re thinking wrong, and the Russians are as well. psychohistorian thinks this is a gentleman’s fight, perhaps slapping one’s opponent with your kidskin glove. Naive nonsense. From the imperial perspective this is a knock-down-drag-out, winner-takes-all and death to the loser street fight. I doubt many here are at all willing to contemplate just how dirty the Empire of Chaos is willing to fight. I’ll try to provide some ideas.
Consider video of St Basil’s cathedral in flames. What wonderful propaganda that would be for the Empire! You are a naive fool if you don’t think the Empire’s strategists are salivating for that, ‘specially if they can hit it when it is packed to capacity with worshipers.
How about video of rescue workers carrying corpses out of the smoldering ruins of the Bolshoi Theater? Prime target of the Empire, folks.
Or how about just popular shopping malls demolished while filled with shoppers? Crowded movie theaters leveled to the ground? Crowded parks or skating rinks? Music festivals? Stadiums hosting major sporting events?
These are the things the Empire is going to hit. You are naive fools if you refuse to see it, but I am laying it out now so you cannot pretend it is inconceivable when it happens.
And it will happen.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170

oh and sky only mentioned tens of thousands losses by each side…..somewhat a false petdpevtive of500000+, ukraine…if more honest with the figs might change western minds… there is never an honest examination of russian MoD reports..and ofcourse a never in depth look at Ukraine equipment losses also only that ammunition is scarce….

Posted by: Jo | Feb 23 2024 22:55 utc | 171

NATO is escalating, and Putin is still afraid.

Posted by: vargas | Feb 23 2024 22:58 utc | 172

Shoigu declared that the Russian army has at his disposal two reserve armies.
500’000 soldiers went in turn home for a rest. How many did not return to the front: 62 for diverse reasons like a disease.
Some soldiers wounded four times went alway back to the front.
Etc.
The Russian society is changing into a country of patriots.

Posted by: Naive | Feb 23 2024 22:58 utc | 173

Posted by: Trubind1 | Feb 23 2024 17:29 utc | 26
They continue to be well funded, and ammunition & HIMAR ammo will be substituted by more lethal and limiter ranged weapons.
No, not really. Funding is on hold right now. And any future funding will likely come too late.
They will withdraw their forces to a defensive position, continuing to lose more and more territory, but that too will cost more Russian lives, and they will continue the war, peppered with terror attacks here and there, they will receive the F16s and the whole SMO will continue to escalate to the finality of a NATO war operation openly, which is where it was always going to end up.
Long run-on sentence. But Russia will take territory in exchange for lives. Ukraine can’t afford to do that for very long. And I’ve said this before, and I will say it again – there is no way “NATO” sends in troops openly. There is no mechanism for that in the first place. And secondly, NATO is a hollow shell its members don’t want to expose.

Posted by: James M. | Feb 23 2024 22:58 utc | 174

NATO is escalating, and Putin is still afraid.
Posted by: vargas | Feb 23 2024 22:58 utc | 172
Proof? Nope, none, I thought so.

Posted by: James M. | Feb 23 2024 23:00 utc | 175

@Posted by: Jo | Feb 23 2024 22:55 utc | 171
And Mediazona has a pretty accurate assessment of Russian losses, just multiply by 2 as advized. Their reports show Russian losses continuously FALLING in the past few months, which makes sense with the incredibly lop-sided advantages in equipment, munitions, artillery, the air, and now even drones. Plus the increasingly unwilling and untrained cannon-fodder that makes up a larger and larger share of the Ukie front line forces.
But no, of course Sky and their MSM brethren will still scream about Russian “meat assaults” and hundreds of thousands of dead. While downplaying the massive Ukrainian losses (probably in the region of 800-900,000 dead, irretrievably injured, missing and taken prisoner).

Posted by: Roger | Feb 23 2024 23:02 utc | 176

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170
No worries. Russia and Putin will just blame the attacks on evil Nazi Ukies and not at NATO directly operating those weapons. Putin and his lovers are great at coping too.
And here’s a guy who smacks Putin’s butt Every chance he gets. Too bad he’s behind a paywall now.
https://thedreizinreport.com/

Posted by: Surferket | Feb 23 2024 23:02 utc | 177

Posted by: Urban Fox | Feb 23 2024 22:48 utc | 166
Wehrmacht also bled to death,but at a horrific cost. The fact is that NATO “acquired” an entire army since 2014 which was thrown against a Russia that still struggles with the consequences of the demographic haemorrhage of the 90s. THe globalist vermin have openly declared that they will use even more advanced assets to attrite the Russian army while hitting also far in the rear.
Now you may claim that “NATO” bleeds in the form of the AFU and the Ukrainian state, but the people who run the show in that abominable organization do not seem perturbed in the least and neither does the western citizenry. And it is obvious their pre-existing sociopathic tendencies are becoming more unhinged, because they believe that they will never face any threats whatsoever, no matter how provocative they become. Is this not clear to you? Am I exaggerating their misanthropic depravity?
As for my point that seemed snarky to you, well, the cost has been already too high for those serving in the fight (civilians too) and the imperialist bastards are willing to increase it. For some, however, it’s not that big of a deal, even as the citizenry in their countries is unwilling to pay any price at all. I tend to take a dismall view of such an approach.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 23:05 utc | 178

personally i think russia shouldnt have admitted the new regions into russia just yet.
that way they could have used the “seperatist regions” as nato would call them in the same way against nato countries like nato is using “ukraine” when attacking russia.
they could have simply retaliated against nato rear in the same manner, with plausible deniability.
its not us, its the seperatists!
but that chance is gone now…

Posted by: Justpassinby | Feb 23 2024 23:11 utc | 179

And it will happen.
Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170

You introduced your rant with I don’t want to sound like the shitty concern trolls,
But you did sound just like that.
No one knows what will happen tomorrow and even less so in one week, in one month or in one year.

Posted by: Naive | Feb 23 2024 23:11 utc | 180

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170
That’s my view as well. And as a further mark of imperial sadistic depavity, they will accuse Russia of conducting a false flag or somply lyinf for any hooror visited upon civilians. And that is without counting the cost for the troops.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 23:12 utc | 181

@178,
Afraid it’s becoming very clear that this is the case. Ukr army is just a merc army working for NATO. Their job (UKR army) is to bleed the Russians until the folks at home are tired of war. Of course, it’s an amazing deal for NATO just to provide the tools for the killing without suffering the repercussions. I had hopes that the economic situation will make the leaders of EU think twice, but it doesn’t seem to be the case.
I honestly don’t know what the plan is for Russia in the next few years, but if they can’t find a way to stop the escalation, they will be in this war for many many years and frankly (play in the hands of NATO).

Posted by: JamesBond | Feb 23 2024 23:13 utc | 182

NATO is escalating, and Putin is still afraid.
Posted by: vargas | Feb 23 2024 22:58 utc | 172
NATO is a paper tiger now. THEY ARE SCARED OF ESCALATING.
They have failed Ukraine. All the gas and wind out of western mouths and look at it now. Ukraine is collapsing all over the frontline while US politicians have a two week holiday.
If NATO was going to do anything, it would have been at the beginning of the conflict. All they are doing now is saving face.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Feb 23 2024 23:13 utc | 183

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170
That’s my view as well. And as a further mark of imperial sadistic depravity, they will accuse Russia of conducting a false flag or simply lying for any horror visited upon Russian civilians. And that is without counting the cost for the troops.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 23:17 utc | 184

Or how about just popular shopping malls demolished while filled with shoppers? Crowded movie theaters leveled to the ground? Crowded parks or skating rinks? Music festivals? Stadiums hosting major sporting events?
These are the things the Empire is going to hit. You are naive fools if you refuse to see it, but I am laying it out now so you cannot pretend it is inconceivable when it happens.
And it will happen.
Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170
_____________________________________________________
Yes, it may happen. But the empire then runs the risk of a real escalation on Ukraine. Imagine the RADA in Kiev being precision hit with missiles when its full of politicians? Imagine shopping malls being blown to bits in Lyviv?
UKRAINE WILL PAY THE PRICE OF US/NATO ESCALATION.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Feb 23 2024 23:21 utc | 185

Troll barometre: when Russia is winning, when we are seeing important Russian victories, the trolls are out multiplying their logorrhoea.
What they are thinking and writing has absolutely no importance on what is happening in the fields. They are spitting their venom. They need to counterbalance their frustrations. Very funny.

Posted by: Naive | Feb 23 2024 23:22 utc | 186

MANPADS by saboteurs seems plausible to me, weapons smuggled in from the south. Location of aircraft provided by NATO no doubt. While losing on the ground this is what the West can do. No doubt most of the counter measures available are well known and can be planned for.
600w thanks for sharing that link.

Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 23 2024 23:23 utc | 187

From Harald Kujac’s talk (former NATO general)
“the front is to be stabilized where it is now. This strategy, which is planned for 10 years, envisages that European allies undertake specific commitments for military and economic support. These commitments are to be defined in binding national documents and agreed upon in a bilateral agreement with Ukraine. The 10-year commitment serves as a safeguard against any termination of support for Ukraine announced by Trump. It is also intended to prevent a change of government in a European country from leading to a change of course. The United Kingdom has already signed a corresponding agreement with the Ukrainian government, the Federal (German) government is also ready to enter into this 10-year support and assistance commitment. If all NATO States follow this example it could amount to NATO membership through the back door – at least in terms of collective defense under Article Five of the NATO treaty. Therefore there are considerations in the USA to create a mechanism with Ukraine that resembles Article 4 of the NATO treaty. This article provides for member states to consult each other when the territorial integrity (or) political Independence or security of a member is threatened.”
Also from his talk, the info that the US/NATO/Ukraine joint HQ at Wiesbaden in Germany delivers “reconnaissance and target data to the Ukrainian armed forces”.
Now it’s obvious that “we’re” telling them what to hit, but I’ve not seen an insider say it out loud.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Feb 23 2024 23:24 utc | 188

MANPADS by saboteurs seems plausible to me, weapons smuggled in from the south. Location of aircraft provided by NATO no doubt. While losing on the ground this is what the West can do. No doubt most of the counter measures available are well known and can be planned for.
600w thanks for sharing that link.
Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 23 2024 23:23 utc | 187
Yes, weapons were smuggled into Russia and used by a gang of saboteurs, but under the instructions of Kiev. Have you noticed that nobody ever claims responsibility? Thats because Kiev wants the west to think they can hit targets at such distances when in fact they are simply manpads.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Feb 23 2024 23:28 utc | 189

People who have been attending the bar for years are now described as trolls by a western wanker who is fittingly named “Naive”, because they emphasize the depravity of the imperialists that is waxing by what they consider Russian dithering. Apparently, the bereaved Dugin, the martyred Vladlen Tatarchev, Sasha Kots and so many activists must be trolls too.

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 23:29 utc | 190

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3829953-canada-not-yet-agree-to-increase-production-of-artillery-shells-media.html
Some discussed about denmark giving away its artillery. Some sayed its becoming obsolete.
Maybe it is.
The increasing of artillery shell production seems to be not profitable enough.
The germans want to start production in 2025, in ucraine.
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/rheinmetall-will-artilleriemunition-kuenftig-in-der-ukraine-herstellen-a-b0178d6b-5380-4188-aea3-305116de842a

Posted by: 600w | Feb 23 2024 23:30 utc | 191

Posted by: William Gruff @ 170

I doubt many here are at all willing to contemplate just how dirty the Empire of Chaos is willing to fight.

I agree that if this does turn into WW3 the USA/UK will redefine and far exceed the horrors of the Third Reich.
Got distracted by the A50, but for the sake or argument I’ll contest b’s premiss, or move beyond it. Does it matter that Ukraine failed, I mean it certainly did last summer but does it now? Militarily to the USA I’m a talking about not existentially or in the abstract.
Assume the USA has willfully scrapped everything that happened until now, failed counter offensive, Avdeevka, all water under the bridge. Now starts a new phase of the war where what Ukraine does or doesn’t do, whether it can hold the Russians back to the Dnieper, try to take Crimea, etc, no longer matters, all it needs to do now, to succeed for the west, its masters, is to keep Russian infantry busy while being an otherwise pure, hollow expression for NATO air and missile power against Russia, an excuse and a platform for NATO to turn the SMO around on Russia, create its own SMO with its own expanded ambiguity that allows NATO to fight full on, hitting deep inside Russia at critical military and industrial sites while having it still contained within the proxy Ukrainian state, take it right to the razor edge of WW3 and forcing Russia to chose if it can handle that, to attack outside of Ukraine.
Not saying that’s how it’s going to go, but it’s a possibility, especially from an actor that has shown only rabid extremism and no historical or practical sense till now.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Feb 23 2024 23:37 utc | 192

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 23:29 utc | 190
Typical accusatory inversion. There is no Russian dithering. Only trolls and people like Girkin and Prigozhin and sob said the same things.
Your insult shows that you have no argument. Please go on. It is funny to see how anti-Russian to became because of your frustrations.
There is available on RT an interview of Shoigu. Do something clever and listen to him.

Posted by: Naive | Feb 23 2024 23:37 utc | 193

Patrick Armstrong called the then war-to-come back in 2016, over on SST(before Lang went bonkers):
https://patrickarmstrong.ca/2016/04/10/russia-prepares-for-a-big-war-the-significance-of-a-tank-army/

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Feb 23 2024 23:38 utc | 194

William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170–
I understand the point you’re making. My reply is none of us know how Russia will react to that sort of terrorism if the missiles get through. Shoigu recently remarked about the nukes in space BS that it seems as if NATO isn’t worried about Russia’s genuine nuclear abilities that he listed. Here’s what he said three days ago in his talk with Putin:
“They know that we have a fairly high stage of completion of work on Poseidon, Peresvet, Petrel, Sarmat, and Avangard – two regiments are already practically in service, on combat duty. In this situation, of course, you can add a few more options to this. For some reason, they don’t talk about it, but they really should be afraid of this.
“In our opinion, they probably don’t talk about it because they don’t have it
.” [My Emphasis]
And of course, the hypersonics aren’t necessarily nukes. Perhaps a few need to be shot across the bow–over London, DC, NYC–since by the time they react the missiles are already streaking overhead instead of finding their target.
It’s difficult to reply to such a speculative hypothesis. We can admit that such is a possibility and has been since day 1. We can understand neither Russia or China want to match the Outlaw US Empire’s depravity. I suggest Russia take out the entire Wall Street district and its exchanges along with the NY Fed in response.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 23 2024 23:39 utc | 195

@ William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 22:53 utc | 170 who is accusing me of portraying what is going on as a gentleman’s game.
How long have I been calling this a civilization war William?
In relation to the barbarism of the West, the China/Russia axis are acting like gentlemen with the upper hand. I posit, until/unless nukedom, that we are watching gentlemen of our species humiliate and then prosecute the opposing side.
This is anything but a gentlemen’s game but that doesn’t mean that there are not gentlemen of our species at action……Voltaire…act, but stay apart from action.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 23 2024 23:41 utc | 196

Slightly OT: fascism and what it is. Part of my opinion on it.
Fascism is the inversion of law. In more modern “US” terms: the weaponization of law. It loves making laws but it never obeys them. To rule and never obey, to demand and never reciprocate. It is a relatively serious character flaw turned into a governing principle. The laws never apply to themselves. Fascism is never self-congruent in practice (for at least the last fifteen years even it’s PR (public relations) has been blatantly incongruent on all topics, and for at least twenty before that again on some topics).
It’s fascism in a nutshell and a decent test that few if any pass.
Which brings us to context and the question of whether context is applied fairly and in general for all or only as an excuse for those in power.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Feb 23 2024 23:41 utc | 197

No worries. Russia and Putin will just blame the attacks on evil Nazi Ukies and not at NATO directly operating those weapons. Putin and his lovers are great at coping too.
And here’s a guy who smacks Putin’s butt Every chance he gets. Too bad he’s behind a paywall now.
https://thedreizinreport.com/
Posted by: Surferket | Feb 23 2024 23:02 utc | 177
Is Putin not a remarkable world leader? Has he not faced off with us imperialism repeatedly and survived even thrived?
You’re a bit too quick to dismiss what is a very legitimate fascination internationally with this, dare I say it, world historic figure. Dreizin makes a living writing about the guy because everyone is fascinated, not because he’s got a man crush, as you alluded.
Again, he is challenging US imperialism. This is no small feat. To nitpick the guy because he hasn’t trounced imperialism like a Marvel super hero, is typical of a do nothing couch potato who hasn’t dared to challenge even minor figures and forces in his own puny life.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Feb 23 2024 23:43 utc | 198

Posted by: Constantine | Feb 23 2024 23:29 utc | 190
It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been a “member of the bar”. That some of you have no social lives other than bitching about the state of the world for the last two decades isn’t the concern of the rest of us.
Granted, you can bemoan and bewail the “slow pace” of the SMO, and call it dithering, without context or understanding of strategy, but that doesn’t make you immune to criticism when said pace picks up, and Russia moves the line of contact.
I advice patience. This will be over soon, and no one will remember the details six months after, only the outcome.

Posted by: James M. | Feb 23 2024 23:44 utc | 199

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 23 2024 19:54 utc | 90
Mmm… I have to agree with you. The US is desperate for a provocation that it can sell to its public, whether from Russia, Iran or HZB. We know what it does when it believes it has the moral legitimacy conferred by “unprovoked aggression”. Feb 24 and Oct 7 unleashed chaos.
Does Putin think it’s a street-fight he can’t win? Does he fear what a morally reinforced West might be capable of? But what is it capable of? It’s very hard to second guess the Kremlin’s thinking at the best of times.

Posted by: Patroklos | Feb 23 2024 23:44 utc | 200