Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 07, 2024

MBS Says John Kirby Needs Some Mouth Wash

Saudi Arabia isn't happy with claims made by NSC spokesperson John Kirby:

On-the-Record Press Gaggle by NSC Coordinator for Strategic Communications John Kirby - White House, Feb 6 2024

Q Hey, Kirby. Thank you so much for doing this. When America is talking about a hostages deal, is it part of a bigger deal of normalization with Saudi Arabia, or are we talking about two different paths here?

MR. KIRBY: No, these are two different things. [...]
...
At the same time, we were, before the 7th of October, and are still now having discussions with our counterparts in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia — obviously, the two key ones — about trying to move forward with a normalization arrangement between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

So those discussions are ongoing as well. We certainly received positive feedback from both sides that they’re willing to continue to have those discussions. But that is a separate track and not related specifically to trying to get this extended humanitarian pause in place. Both are really important though.

---

Kirby says US received ‘positive feedback’ on Israel-Saudi normalization talks - Times of Israel (via Reuters), Feb 6 2024

The Biden administration has received positive feedback that Saudi Arabia and Israel are willing to continue to have normalization discussions, White House National Security spokesman John Kirby tells reporters today. ...

The Saudis disagreed with that characterization:

Foreign Ministry 🇸🇦 @KSAmofaEN - 0:09 UTC · Feb 7, 2024

A Statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding the discussions between the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the United States of America on the Arab-Israeli peace process.


bigger

From the statement:

...
The Kingdom has communicated its firm position to the U.S. administration that there will be no diplomatic relations with Israel unless an independent Palestinian state is recognized on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capitol, and that the Israeli aggression on the Gaza Strip stops and all Israeli occupation forces withdraw from the Gaza strip.
...

Added comment:

asad abukhalil أسعد أبو خليل @asadabukhalil - 2:04 UTC · Feb 7, 2024

This Saudi foreign ministry statement is unusual and it announces that Gaza will form an earthquake in Arab politics. MbS in his policies on Palestine disregarded Saudi and Arab public opinion. This statement tells us that he is retrenching and adjusting. Kushner on hold.

Just to make it clear. I am not saying it is a good statement. But before Gaza MbS merely asked for “easing the lives of Palestinians”. Nothing else.

Posted by b on February 7, 2024 at 6:43 UTC | Permalink

Comments
next page »

The Saudi royals lack legitimacy, they cannot afford to be seen supporting Israel now. There is a very serious situtation in Jordan as well, and even in Egypt, where Sisi has privatized the border with Gaza to a crony who takes bribes to allow trade.

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 6:53 utc | 1

Kirby is publicly exposed as a liar. Plain and simple.

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2024 6:58 utc | 2

"humanitarian pause"

We will use a temporarily reduced level of killing to gain strength in order to increase the killing to an even higher level later.

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2024 7:03 utc | 3

From this mornings Financial Times:

McKinsey and BCG warn staff face jail if they reveal Saudi work

Senators assail consultants for helping Riyadh use ‘soft power’ to build influence in the US


The heads of consulting giants McKinsey and BCG told US lawmakers on Tuesday that their employees in Saudi Arabia could face jail if the firms handed over details of their work for the country’s sovereign wealth fund without approval from the kingdom.

Bob Sternfels of McKinsey and Rich Lesser of BCG had been summoned to appear before Congress, along with the chief executive of smaller consultancy Teneo and the dealmaker Michael Klein, after the four firms failed to comply with a subpoena demanding information about their work for the $700bn Public Investment Fund.

A Senate committee is investigating how Saudi Arabia is using “soft power” such as sports investments to extend its influence in the US, and lawmakers assailed the consulting groups for their work in the kingdom at a hearing on Tuesday.

“We want to determine what work these companies have done and are doing that allows a foreign sovereign to use instruments of commerce in the United States to increase its influence within our shores, and rebrand its tarnished image after years of horrific human rights abuses,” said Richard Blumenthal, the Democratic senator and chair of the permanent subcommittee on investigation.


continues ==> https://www.ft.com/content/7009a1a9-8e07-4113-a47d-ee4724d3d427

Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2024 7:31 utc | 4

All of these rich Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the rest if they had any humanity would provide shelter in their nations for these poor people of Gaza and the West Bank. All Arabs should leave occupied Palestine and leave the Khazarian Jewish mafia there. Then all the decent nations of the world led by Russia and China should bomb Tel Aviv and Jerusalem till they were nothing but holes in the ground then invade Palestine and get rid of the rest of the Khazarian Jewish mafia. Then all of the Gazans and West Bankers and other Arabs is Palestine can all go back home.

Posted by: Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

Given that the sole internationally recognized boundries of the Jewish State remain those described in UNR 181 (1947) - the Saudi offer of the 1967 borders is rather generous.

Note - the Saudi offer says little about paying for damages and property taken without compensation.

Posted by: Exile | Feb 7 2024 7:40 utc | 6

@Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

You are expressing support for ethnic cleansing.

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 7 2024 7:45 utc | 7

Posted by: Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

In fact just standard hasbara: Palestinians should leave voluntarily, it's what Israel wants.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 7:59 utc | 8

Worth mentioning here that KSA has a large Shi'ite minority that it's been repressing for years, and now the whole Sunni world is watching as the Shiite factions (Yemen, Lebanon, etc) are the ones putting the stones to Israel.

So yah, I'd say that MBS is trying to thread a political needle here, not that Kirby and the clown gang are smart enough to appreciate that.

Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Feb 7 2024 8:00 utc | 9

Thanks for that, b. It's just what I've been saying for months. MbS can't sign, because of popular opposition, and more important sympathy among the 5000 princes for the Palestinian suffering.

The best story you might have mentioned is the one where Netanyahu thought he had a deal, and flew secretly at night to a proposed meeting in Saudi at that 100 km city long linear city called Neom in the northwest of Saudi. Only MbS never showed, and Netanyahu waited 14 hours before flying home again disappointed. Israel kept the event secret, of course. It was under Trump or Obama.

That Saudi is on the point of signing is a constant theme of Israeli propaganda. I comes up again every week or two: but beware: it's only Israel pushing the story. They want an agreement desperately. But it will never happen, as they won't accept Saudi conditions.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 8:09 utc | 10

Shi'ite minority

Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Feb 7 2024 8:00 utc | 9

---

It occurred to me that in modern times the Shiite are republicans and the Sunni are monarchists.

Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2024 8:09 utc | 11

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 6:53 utc | 1

"The Saudi royals lack legitimacy, ..."

And you know that how? Because there is no political electioneering like in the West?

Here are some facts, easily checked by doing internet searches.

Under the Saudi Royals, Saudi Arabia's economy has grown exponentially since the 70s, building a large national middle class and supporting several Muslim countries through demand for labor, both qualified and unqualified.

The Saudi royals turned the country from a poor satrapy for American oil companies into a high-income independent nation in 40 years.

They have a meritocratic system for university students and those that pass the filters do not get into debt and on the contrary, receive accomodation and a stipend while studying. Health services also are free of cost to Saudi nationals and to foreign workers under Government contract.

They are investing heavily in infrastraucture and modernization and they have a fertility rate higher than 2, so Saudi population is still growing.

Since King Abdullah and mostly since MbS came to power, the religious police has been defanged and now it doesn't have any power to harass Saudi women or men that do not attend prayers. The official policy is to move from conservative to moderate Islam.

I've been to the country many times on business. I could not live there, not because of the culture, which is of course alien to me, but because of the weather and the landscape. But what I've seen is a country full of vitality, with public works everywhere, many well educated and intelligent people that have advanced in life through merit, and generally very nice and friendly people which are pretty much content with their government.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Feb 7 2024 8:10 utc | 12

I heard that MbS wants to improve relations with Israel but that he has to listen to what the saudi population is demanding who don't like any cooperation with Israel.

Posted by: WMG | Feb 7 2024 8:13 utc | 13

Posted by: Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

All of these rich Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the rest if they had any humanity would provide shelter in their nations for these poor people of Gaza and the West Bank.

We already know what fascist and racist Israel wants, no need to advertise it here.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Feb 7 2024 8:14 utc | 14

Timely with:

In a statement on Monday, US weapons company Lockheed Martin announced that agreements have been signed for Saudi Arabian firms to manufacture parts for its Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system - which would develop local manufacturing capabilities and transfer expertise to fortify the country’s defense industry.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/iran--saudi-arabia-discuss-potential-security--defense-coope

Towards the end of the article.


Posted by: Forest | Feb 7 2024 8:14 utc | 15

Timely with:

In a statement on Monday, US weapons company Lockheed Martin announced that agreements have been signed for Saudi Arabian firms to manufacture parts for its Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system - which would develop local manufacturing capabilities and transfer expertise to fortify the country’s defense industry.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/iran--saudi-arabia-discuss-potential-security--defense-coope

Towards the end of the article.


Posted by: Forest | Feb 7 2024 8:14 utc | 16

Posted by: Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

We could call it The Psychotic State Non Solution Of Genocide Facilitation

Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Feb 7 2024 8:18 utc | 17

Go to love how blinken Biden and Austin are in court as co defendants for enabling genocide in a usa court under usa laws. The judge proceeded as usa gov failed to have the case dismissed

Posted by: Hankster | Feb 7 2024 8:25 utc | 18

Worth mentioning here that KSA has a large Shi'ite minority that it's been repressing for years,

Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Feb 7 2024 8:00 utc | 9

Yeah, I should think there's a sudden lightening of the pressure on the Shi'a community in the Eastern Province (Hofuf/al-Hasa). They were pretty nasty to them. But Saudi has now taken the opposite policy to Bahrain, where the Sunni King has signed with Israel under US pressure, and continues to severely oppress the Shi'a, who are the majority on that island.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 8:35 utc | 19

fyi, this is the entire response by Kirby to the question cited by b, in the published transcript:

MR. KIRBY: No, these are two different things. We’re working very hard, as I mentioned to Steve, to try to come to closure on another hostage deal and an extended pause that will allow us to get the remaining hostages home with their families, to get more assistance in, and certainly to reduce harm to civilians. Obviously, we’d like to have something that’s longer in length than a week that we were able to achieve back in November — again, to be as thorough as we can be on getting those hostages home.

And then, you know, once that gets put in place then, you know, we’ll have to see where it goes from there, assuming that both sides meet their commitments.


At the same time, we were, before the 7th of October, and are still now having discussions with our counterparts in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia — obviously, the two key ones — about trying to move forward with a normalization arrangement between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

So those discussions are ongoing as well. We certainly received positive feedback from both sides that they’re willing to continue to have those discussions. But that is a separate track and not related specifically to trying to get this extended humanitarian pause in place. Both are really important though.
(emphasis added)

And you’ll notice the disgusting shit that he’s talking here, unrelated to KSA. This American nazi genocidist is saying, in effect, “Oh maybe we’ll stop slaughtering, starving, torturing, sniping, bombarding, shelling, and kidnapping the two million or so people of Gaza for more than a week. Maybe we’ll stop doing those things for eight days, or even 10 days or 30 days, or even with Satan’s approval we might take a pause for 90 days. Wouldn’t that be fuck’n awesome? But as you may have guessed, I’m not authorized to speculate on whether our wonderful friends in Israel—you know, the government and those good ol’ boys and gals blockading the UN and Red Crescent aid trucks at the border crossings—would actually let in any food, water, medicine or fuel during a “humanitarian pause” because, you know, all those items I mentioned could be “dual use” and we can’t let Hamas take advantage of our kindness. And our extremely truthful friends in Israel have assured us that every single living thing in Gaza is a member of Hamas, and of course we know from our own intelligence that all members of Hamas are terrorists. So we have to be very careful not to give any assistance to these terrorists under the pretext of a “humanitarian pause” because our munificent friends in Israel may see this as a potential security threat and we can’t be having that. I want to also take this opportunity to point out that when you see pictures on Twitter of dead and mangled Palestinian babies, the Israeli air force has pinpoint targeted these individuals after receiving credible intelligence that they were planning to carry out terrorist acts against Israel within the next 18 years and so this is legitimate self defense by the great and democratic Jewish state of Israel. So after the hostages have been returned to their families and we’ve managed to get some more munitions to the IDF, we’ll resume our mission, Satan willing, to eliminate every last Hamas terrorist. I hope that answers your question. Next please.”

Posted by: tawharanui | Feb 7 2024 8:46 utc | 20

You know you are reaching the depths of depravity when MBS is the one showing you up in the morality and humanity stakes.

Related:

https://news.antiwar.com/2024/02/06/us-blocks-yemen-peace-deal/

Posted by: Rubiconned | Feb 7 2024 9:50 utc | 21

From this older thread:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2024/01/war-on-un-west-retaliates-against-icj-order-by-defunding-humanitarian-mission-for-palestine.html

"BREAKING: LIST OF COUNTRIES SUSPENDED FUNDS TO UNRWA
🇺🇸 United States: $223 million
🇩🇪 Germany: $127.3 million
🇨🇦 Canada: $76.8 million
🇦🇺 Australia: $20 million
🇳🇱 Netherlands: $19 million
.🇬🇧 United Kingdom: $12.2 million
🇮🇹 Italy: $3.27 million
🇫🇮 Finland: $5.45 million
🇨🇭 Switzerland: $3.3 million"

I make it about $489 million in total.

Is MBS then gonna sell one of his yachts or auction his (fake?) Da Vinci to make up the shortfall and put his money where his mouth is?

Posted by: Rubiconned | Feb 7 2024 9:56 utc | 22

"The Saudi royals lack legitimacy, ..."

"And you know that how? Because there is no political electioneering like in the West?"

I would say this is an easy one:
1. That is a monarchy, imposed by the British after WW1. Who chose MbS? Absolute monarchies are hard to legitimize, they may get a pass on a case by case basis. Saudi is extra hard, it has inflamed the Moslem world with extremist madrassas and the war in Yemen is at least a criminal endeavour. The Saudis are only liked if they bring cash, ask the Beirut playboys.
2. It supresses the Shia majority in the oil bearing regions, remember the Nimr beheading. About 20% of GDP goes to elite princes, as was revealed by Wiki leaks. Stipend depends on rank, not on merit. The royals take a cut of every business deal.
3. That is not to say that you cannot make great business there, or that the economy does not improve, or that there is a (lazy, civil servants) middle class. There are also downtrodden inmigrants with few rights.

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 10:18 utc | 23

Indeed, laguerre has the crux of it. This is one of many instances where cute media games of nudging the negotiations will only backfire. Public v private conversations, if you try to game that in an effort to destabilize, then you'll get a united front of public and private telling you to eff off. These Western negotiators are rank amateurs; they are building a case of self-isolation devoid worth of mercy.

Posted by: titmouse | Feb 7 2024 10:25 utc | 24

In the background when the camras and microphone is switched off....
Nice little pile of money you got stashed in the west MBS, we know where it is.
Or maybe nice little family you got here.....

Bonesaw anyone ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Feb 7 2024 10:45 utc | 25

Clare Daly yesterday.
A brilliant short message to the EU that was, ironically, reinforced by the reaction of the chair (I assume), a very ordinary middle-class look-a-like woman (AKA acceptable image of 'middle-of-the-road political philosophy').
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DriIOA9zXo

Go Clare.

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Feb 7 2024 10:57 utc | 26

Some times though just the front of camra optics are very important.
Now would be the perfict time for a meet up between The great Vladimir Putin and MBS, your place or mine.
Multi-polar stylie.

Posted by: Mark2 | Feb 7 2024 11:00 utc | 27

I would say this is an easy one:
1. That is a monarchy, imposed by the British after WW1.

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 10:18 utc | 23

Well, that's completely wrong, for a start. Ibn Saud came to power in 1908, before the war, completely without British intervention. He was never assisted by the British during and after the war, who were opposed to his success and rather preferred the Hashemites. Ibn Saud did it on his own, aided by a horde of Wahhabi jihadis. The American alliance came later in the 1930s, with the discovery of oil.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 11:08 utc | 28

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 10:18 utc | 23

You don't know much but you spout Western propaganda liberally.

Show the wiki leaks that say "About 20% of GDP goes to elite princes".

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Feb 7 2024 11:26 utc | 29

What is behind this nonsense re. KSA & Israel.
I do not what connects the topics with any great strength.
I.e.
If the Saudis "recognise" Israel how does that make the Gaza Genocidal atrocity stop?
If the Saudis fail to recognise Israel, how does that make a difference in Gaza.
Imo it does not. Is this a red herring? Whereby Israel says it wont stop mass
shooting people in its house if the KSA wont give it a kiss on the cheek?

Posted by: Intp1 | Feb 7 2024 11:40 utc | 30

Thanks b
indeed aljazeera tried to twist it as if KSA was with Qatar in pseudo-positive statements wrt the ongoing negociations but later had to add the KSA statement.
It is easy to compare the 2 trends by following the Ahram and AJE English liveblogs on a daily basis.

Posted by: Minaa | Feb 7 2024 11:45 utc | 31

Thanks b. Unusually strong statement by the Saudis.

Whover planned the repercussions of Al-Aqsa flood on Oct. 7th was a genius. According to Aleks from Black Mountain analysis, it was General Soleimani himself:

https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/chickens-in-the-middle-east-i

the one foreseeing the grand plan. It might well be.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Feb 7 2024 11:55 utc | 32

The shi'ite population of the Saudi Kingdom has two parts, I believe: the eastern province, already referred to and the south western provinces stolen from Yemen in and since 1934. These last are part of the ancient Imanate from which Ansarullah comes and the shah there are not, as those in the east are, Believe, Twelvers.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 7 2024 12:05 utc | 33

J.K.,
Everything I wrote can be verified on line with just a little effort.

You can read about the Saudi princes and their monthly stipends here:

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/96RIYADH4784_a.html

For a guy who claims to do great business in Saudi, I am amazed you did not know that...

You are welcome!

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 12:17 utc | 34

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 8:09 utc | 10

Not surprised he didn't show up, as the Line isn't even finished yet.

Posted by: KingCobra | Feb 7 2024 12:45 utc | 35

I agree, Saudi normalisation with Israel is a red herring, a distraction from Gaza. KSA has been dealing with Israel unofficially for years anyway, and doesnt need it. The normalisation of KSA with Iran trumped any normalisation with Israel. Its symbolic for US/Israel to make them feel they still have 'influence' in the region. For Biden in particular, it would give him a piece of paper as a foreign policy 'win' to crow about to the home crowd.

An interesting development, Hamas has responded with a counter-offer, quite a detailed one, on 3 phases each of 45 days, with full removal of occupation, lifting of siege/blockade etc...
The Hamas spokesman mentioned this detailed "reasonable" pathway counteroffer was to "test the waters" on whether Israel is serious since they cant be trusted.

but the segment which stood out to me was the inclusion of 5 Parties to act as security "guarantors" for both sides ... Egypt, Qatar, Turkiye, Russia and UN.

Posted by: Rain | Feb 7 2024 12:48 utc | 36

Laguerre 28.
There is much to discuss here.
So the legitimacy of the House of Saud stems from conquest. All Abdul Aziz had in 1902 was Nedj, and support from Ikhwan.
Ibn Saud skipped the Arab revolt and refused to join Ikhwan into the British Mandatory Palestine, would you say Britain preferred Ikhwan? Do you think he did not get British help? Would they have been in power in all the territory, including the Persian Gulf coast if that did not suit the Brits?

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 12:49 utc | 37

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 12:17 utc | 34

I do great business in many places and you didn't show the part where it says that "About 20% of GDP goes to elite princes, as was revealed by Wiki leaks."

Current GDP in the KSA is 1.1 trillion USD and the number of Saudi princes and princesses is between 12000 and 15000. That gives about 16 USD million per year on average for each prince/princess if 20% of GDP goes to the princes and princesses.

Is that what wikileaks say?

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Feb 7 2024 13:08 utc | 38

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 12:17 utc | 34

I do great business in many places and you didn't show the part where it says that "About 20% of GDP goes to elite princes, as was revealed by Wiki leaks."

Current GDP in the KSA is 1.1 trillion USD and the number of Saudi princes and princesses is between 12000 and 15000. That gives about 16 USD million per year on average for each prince/princess if 20% of GDP goes to the princes and princesses.

Is that what wikileaks say?

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Feb 7 2024 13:08 utc | 38

GDP is not a good measure of a Sovereign country's economy. PPP is much better. Saudi Arabia's PPP is double that of the GDP as it is over $2 trillion:

Saudi Arabia

GDP (PPP) 2023 estimate
• Total
Increase $2.246 trillion[13] (17th)
• Per capita
Increase $68,452[13] (15th)
GDP (nominal) 2023 estimate
• Total
Decrease $1.069 trillion[13] (19th)
• Per capita
Decrease $32,586[13


Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2024 13:24 utc | 39

Clare Daly yesterday.
A brilliant short message to the EU that was, ironically, reinforced by the reaction of the chair (I assume), a very ordinary middle-class look-a-like woman (AKA acceptable image of 'middle-of-the-road political philosophy').
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DriIOA9zXo

Go Clare.

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Feb 7 2024 10:57 utc | 26

In a field of mental and moral pygmies Clare Daley is an absolute giant.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Feb 7 2024 13:28 utc | 40

Those Arab Princes can read the writing on the wall as well as any. So, for all that he was so often cast as the apostle of imperial vanity, did an English poet a century and more ago.


God of our fathers, known of old,
Lord of our far-flung battle line,
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine —
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!

The tumult and the shouting dies;
The Captains and the Kings depart:
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!

Far-called, our navies melt away;
On dune and headland sinks the fire:
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!

If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe,
Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
Or lesser breeds without the Law—
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard,
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And, guarding, calls not Thee to guard;
For frantic boast and foolish word—
Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!

Posted by: English Outsider | Feb 7 2024 13:31 utc | 41

A year or more ago, MBS was considered a clown by a good chunk of the blogging community, including here at MOA. But over time, I have noticed a shift to think of him in a much more positive light. I think he has become a much more seasoned politician/statesman/royal. His relations with Putin, moving away from the dollar, going to the BRICS, better PR with fewer scandals have all helped his image. I guess squeezing local rich people at a fancy hotel and killing opposition at your embassies is not consider skillful statesmanship. Now that those memories are fading, we can focus more on this accomplishments. It is all good stuff. I for one do respect him a lot more than before.

Posted by: meshpal | Feb 7 2024 13:34 utc | 42

Sweden and Germany: The Hardy Boys in 'Mystery of the Nordstreams"

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Feb 7 2024 13:35 utc | 43

The Saudi were unjustly installed in Arabia through a campaign of death and distruction that makes how the Palestinians have been treated (before this latest chapter) look like a walk in the park.

Living in Kuwait was a favored WARLORD the British had used for generations to guard their commerce, was a particular WARLORD with the worst take on religion you could imagine.

The British discovered easy oil in Arabia. Although they will swear up and down that they didn't find it at that time.

The British made another deal with their warlord living in Kewait. The British provided money, weapons, military planning, logistics, political support, and any amount of bribery or murder around the world to force recognition.

The warlord hired an army and raped and pillaged his way across Arabia, stealing land from the Heshamite Kingdome Jordan and Yemen. The British stole "Saudi Arabia" using the Saudis as proxies.

The Persians don't like the thief.

Most of the oil is under Sheiit feet

The rest of Yemen has more oil under it than what the Saudis stole, plus natural gas too. That is why the West wants to use the Saudis to continue to steal the rest of Arabia.

Posted by: Hot Carl | Feb 7 2024 13:35 utc | 44

@Norwegian #2 "Kirby is publicly exposed as a liar. Plain and simple."

And they will just imply or outright claim that the public statement is because of "Arab street" sensibilities or some such thing and does not represent actual private exchanges with the Saudis. They'll double down, as always.

Posted by: Billb | Feb 7 2024 13:37 utc | 45

>>>>>: Rubiconned | Feb 7 2024 9:56 utc | 22

I make it about $489 million in total.

Is MBS then gonna sell one of his yachts or auction his (fake?) Da Vinci to make up the shortfall and put his money where his mouth is?


I figured that was protection money so the antisemites in Europe and North America don't have to deal with a wave of Jewish immigrants in the near future when the IDF fails.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Feb 7 2024 13:40 utc | 46

"Sweden and Germany: The Hardy Boys in 'Mystery of the Nordstreams""

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Feb 7 2024 13:35 utc | 43

Well, here is my take: : the Hardy Boys (I read every one) always solved their mysteries, Sweden and Germany never will.

How about, "Inspector Clouseau and the Mystery of the Nordstreams" ?

Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 47

and refused to join Ikhwan into the British Mandatory Palestine, would you say Britain preferred Ikhwan? Do you think he did not get British help? Would they have been in power in all the territory, including the Persian Gulf coast if that did not suit the Brits?

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 12:49 utc | 37

Confused, I regret to say. The Wahhabis are not Ikhwan, though very similar. No, Ibn Saud did not get British help. The Brits supported the Hashemites, i.e. Sharif Husayn of Mecca, and his sons, Abdullah of Transjordan and Faysal of Iraq. But the Hashemites lost the fight. You forget the geography of the time, when going to Riyadh took several days of travel from the Gulf, and nobody was interested in it, so Ibn Saud was left alone until it was too late. This subject comes up all the time and I keep having to correct people on it. The Saudis were not chess pieces to be moved by the evil British empire. The rise of the Saudis came from their contract with Standard Oil in around 1937, and the alliance with the US.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 48

Palestine Chronicles publishes “Full Text” of “Hamas Counter Offer”:
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/our-conditions-full-text-of-hamas-response-to-ceasefire-proposal/

I read through a couple of times and might have missed things, but overall, was a disappointing “demand” .

Appears Hamas insists on withdrawal from “highly populated areas” not all of Gaza anymore, which would leave the “security zone” exactly as West Bank now, little bastions of IDF forces surrounding policing pockets of Gaza, and no, they would never leave if this “ageeement” actually was accepted.

No mention of de-occupying, Palestinian State Hood, basically anything other than a return to a worse-than-before occupied Gaza Strip.
No mention of “failures in compliance”, in the event of a breach, what actions?

It resembles a West Bank scenario, with tents & living conditions similar to what Palestinians would have if tossed out to the Sinai under Egypt. No wonder Egypt et el are so happy to provide tents and a hospital or 2.

No doubt, even this little of demand, will be rejected & scorned by Israel, so I rather see it dead in the water anyways, but overall, the actual released text had very little in common with their public commentary’s of their demands.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 49

"The British discovered easy oil in Arabia. Although they will swear up and down that they didn't find it at that time."

Posted by: Hot Carl | Feb 7 2024 13:35 utc | 44

I believe the Americans in 1938 discovered the huge Saudi oil wealth:

"On March 3, 1938, an American-owned oil well in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, drilled into what would soon be identified as the largest source of petroleum in the world.(1)"

1. https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/oil-discovered-saudi-arabia/

Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2024 13:50 utc | 50

The lie was deliberate . The real reason is Saudi sniffing BRICS . This is called feeding the ' chooks', creating an embarrassment , and a reminder that the American narrative is the mission of the Lobby ,, and those friends that run the Lodge . Anyway , Kirby and his mousescateater Neocons Patriots of undermine America theory . Next time you're in New York , in the shadows of where ''certain policies parroted by delusional toxic 'Communist-Fascism ' Pan Handle , Globalists EXTREMISTS . From that cynical ENDGAME , you helped topple , those were the consequences . And now , you and your buddies ,in the shadows of THE TWIN TOWERS, ST Nicholas rose from YOUR ASHES . A magnificent Phoenix . A Greek Orthodox Church ... OPEN TO ALL FAITHS . An Architectural beauty , that all Americans should be proud of . A place for contemplation . I prayed at the alter to bless the victims , BOTH SIDES that you caused , you and the OTHER PROXIES , in your ideological stupors. I prayed that you understand SIN HUMANITY MERCY . Go and visit a masterpiece in N.Y. Find yourself . PUBLIC SERVANT s.

Posted by: Paleologos | Feb 7 2024 13:53 utc | 51

"Sweden and Germany: The Hardy Boys in 'Mystery of the Nordstreams""

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Feb 7 2024 13:35 utc | 43

Well, here is my take: : the Hardy Boys (I read every one) always solved their mysteries, Sweden and Germany never will.

How about, "Inspector Clouseau and the Mystery of the Nordstreams" ?

Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 47

Speaking of Nordstream and Sweden and failing to solve mysteries ...

Sweden to drop inquiry into Nord Stream pipeline explosions
...

After a near 18-month inquiry, the investigators concluded they did not have jurisdiction in the case because Sweden’s citizens and interests had not been harmed.

“The conclusion of the investigation is that Swedish jurisdiction does not apply and that the investigation therefore should be closed,” the Swedish prosecution authority said on Wednesday.

...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/07/sweden-drop-inquiry-nord-stream-pipeline-explosions

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Feb 7 2024 13:59 utc | 52

In a field of mental and moral pygmies Clare Daley is an absolute giant.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Feb 7 2024 13:28 utc | 40

____

As I see it, Clare Daly and her compatriot Mick Wallace are the only two people in the Eurozone who merit a Nobel Peace Prize. But the awarding committeeis much more likely to select Eliot Higgins and his merry band of cyberquacks, or — oh hell, why not — subliterate faux-folkie Bob “Neighborhood Bully” Zimmerman.

Posted by: malenkov | Feb 7 2024 14:00 utc | 53

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 10:18 utc | 23

Stickler of legitimacy, huh?

Then how about Rishi Sunak, a non-elected political hack. And how about all those non-elected EU bureaucrats?

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Feb 7 2024 14:11 utc | 54

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 48
I would propose you read comment #44 by Hot Carl. History is complex, and it is sometimes hard to prove who was allied with whom, but his thesis makes sense. The 1938 deal did not come out of the blue, the Brits where busy pumping oil on the opposite shore of the Persian Gulf since the early 20th century, their geologists knew what was to be found in the Arabian shores and they sure wanted to control the Gulf. That Ikhwan proposed to liberate Palestine is not in doubt. That the Sauds said no and then defeated Ikhwan is also certain. Those developments favoured Britain. Why did they yield to the US is the interesting question, don't you think?

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 14:35 utc | 55

I guess squeezing local rich people at a fancy hotel and killing opposition at your embassies is not consider skillful statesmanship. Now that those memories are fading, we can focus more on this accomplishments. It is all good stuff. I for one do respect him a lot more than before.

Posted by: meshpal | Feb 7 2024 13:34 utc | 42

Seizing power in a corrupt monarchy, and then maintaining it, requires violence, and MBS was at least very focused with his. I have never had any complaints there. I don't know how far I'd go in praising his policies, though. There is, after all, the war in Yemen to consider, his continued hosting of US assets directed at Iran, and so on. I think that he is basically an Erdogan, trying to protect his turf but deeply imbedded in the hegemony. There's no evidence that his benevolence goes any further than an understanding that the willy-nilly oppression of the 'common people' to the extent that one can use that term in KSA is ultimately self-defeating and destabilizing. His perception of the current correlation of forces globally is that he has room to maneuver and get the US boot off his neck, but he's not going to stick that neck out any further than he has to. He had to stick it out in the BRICS direction to balance the US, but nobody is going to launch drones at US forces in Saudi from Saudi territory. He's walking a tightrope, but as far as I can see he's not in any moral sense better than his predecessors, he's just smarter and more perceptive regarding how to protect his own interests.

Posted by: Honzo | Feb 7 2024 14:42 utc | 56

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 48
I would propose you read comment #44 by Hot Carl. History is complex, and it is sometimes hard to prove who was allied with whom, but his thesis makes sense. The 1938 deal did not come out of the blue, the Brits where busy pumping oil on the opposite shore of the Persian Gulf since the early 20th century, their geologists knew what was to be found in the Arabian shores and they sure wanted to control the Gulf. That Ikhwan proposed to liberate Palestine is not in doubt. That the Sauds said no and then defeated Ikhwan is also certain. Those developments favoured Britain. Why did they yield to the US is the interesting question, don't you think?

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 14:35 utc | 55

Well if the British knew of the oil why did they allow the American John Paul Getty to make all the first money?

Because the City was behind the whole thing, that's why.

Now throw the stones at me....ha, ha

Posted by: canuck | Feb 7 2024 14:44 utc | 57

a constant theme of Israeli propaganda
Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 8:09 utc | 10

Yes, indeed. The belief held by OPEC+ hostages that crafty SUNNI WAHABI immortal BROTHERHOOD Saudi monarchy is in IL's pocket will not die. Only three (3) Arab League members have inked an "Abraham Accord Declaration"—AE, BH, MA

Arab League (NGO 1945): AE, BH, DJ, DZ, EG, IQ, JO, KM, KW, LB, LY, MA, MR, OM, PS (PLO, PA), QA, SA, SO, SS, SY, TN, YE

And only four (4) members—EG, JO, LB, SY—signed a peace treaty with Israel after the Six-Day War.

Posted by: sln2002 | Feb 7 2024 14:53 utc | 58

There will be no 'Two State solution'. The only possible solution is one state with equal rights for all.

Posted by: El Oso de Los Llanos | Feb 7 2024 14:54 utc | 59

Hamas' cynicism: asking Azrael to release thousands of prisoners whose houses have already been destroyed or will be destroyed before they come back. Do they get paid to facilitate the ethnic cleansing? Are the released prisoners supposed to be moved to refugee camps in order to overwhelm the pro PLO refugees?

Posted by: Minaa | Feb 7 2024 14:59 utc | 60

Johan [email protected] occupation bases in Occupied Palestine and illegal bases in the region are not attacked daily.....the Axis of Resistance lost. Hamas offering cease fire with close to 30,000 dead Palestinians.....Hamas has lost. Should the Apartheid State create a buffer zone in Lebanon..... Hezbollah has lost. Poor General will have the spinzies in his grave.

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Feb 7 2024 15:00 utc | 61

.....and if the Axis of Resistance can not touch the Axis of Occupations' air assets, navel assets, Palestinians will be needlessly dying to the last one. Maybe a zoo somewhere with an exhibition will house and display the last Palestinians in their natural habitat. Maybe a tent to sleep in, they say broken rubble and tin makes for a lousy bed.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Feb 7 2024 15:08 utc | 62

I would propose you read comment #44 by Hot Carl.

Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 14:35 utc | 55

I did read Hot Carl's comment. He is not right, or to be more precise, rather vague, and not very close.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 15:11 utc | 63

Re Hamas reply to ceasefire proposal:I read through a couple of times and might have missed things, but overall, was a disappointing “demand” .
Trubind1 | Feb 7 2024 13:47 utc | 49

You did not read it properly. It is everything they have been saying the whole time.

Posted by: JB | Feb 7 2024 15:20 utc | 64

Posted by: Biochar | Feb 7 2024 6:53 utc | 1

################

I don't claim any specific expertise about the Saudi royalty. However, generally in Islamic governments, which are still very tribal societies, the leader is chosen by consensus and is responsible to every tribe voting for that leader.

To my mind that is much more legitimate than the sham circus show of Western "democracy" which is run by intelligence services and monied interests on behalf of big pharma, the defense industry, and foreign Zionist governments.

As an aside, I have found it fascinating to see how many Americans have discovered since Trump left that they can't even control their local school boards.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 7 2024 15:26 utc | 65

Why did they yield to the US "Great Powers" is the interesting question, don't you think?
Posted by: biochar | Feb 7 2024 14:35 utc | 55

No.

Posted by: sln2002 | Feb 7 2024 15:34 utc | 66


Israel should be disqualified from Eurovision 2024: European politicians

Political figures pen angry letter to Eurovision organisers saying Israel should be excluded for its war in Gaza.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/6/israel-should-be-disqualified-from-eurovision-2024-european-politicians

Posted by: Exile | Feb 7 2024 15:42 utc | 67

There is a rumor in Muslim circles that the Saudi royal family are secretly Jewish.

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 15:45 utc | 68

Boxwoodtree; your comment is utterly misguided; Palestinians don't want to leave their homes; why don't you up and leave your home; don't sell it, just leave and move to some other country? Why not? This is a tired talking point from a colonial mindset; Palestinians must stay, that's how they protest and fight the theft of their land and homes.

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 15:49 utc | 69

Military HELICOPTER with FIVE Marines on board Missing

It took off from Vegas and was heading to Miramar...

California search and rescue crews are looking for a missing helicopter with five Marines aboard, the U.S. Marine Corps said.

The CH-53E Super Stallion helicopter was "reported overdue" to Marine Corps Air Station Miramar Tuesday night. The helicopter departed from Creech Air Force Base near Las Vegas and was en route to Miramar, in the San Diego area.

Posted by: more war | Feb 7 2024 15:53 utc | 70

Insisting Palestine be based on the 1967 borders including the territory occupied by Israel after the Six Day War is a concession to Israeli aggression but could be interpreted as pragmatic, especially by the American fascists. Expanding borders to include territory captured during war is illegal. Saudi Arabia should insist the borders established by the UN in 1948 shall be the frontiers between Palestine and Israel before it will resume diplomatic relations with Israel. So should every nation. So should the UN. Would Palestinians concede to except their borders to the 1967 war results? That would be a magnificent gesture for peace but one everyone knows the Israelis would never accept.

Posted by: Wilikins | Feb 7 2024 15:56 utc | 71

Add to G7-censored international law—

Secretary-General's remarks to the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, Jan 31,, 2024

ICJ ELECTION 2024, Feb 6, 2024

A/RES/77/247,"Legal Consequences arising from the Policies and Practices of Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem," hearing: Feb 19, 2024

Posted by: sln2002 | Feb 7 2024 15:57 utc | 72

There is a rumor in Muslim circles that the Saudi royal family are secretly Jewish.

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 15:45 utc | 68

In the past few days I also read on here that George Bush and Barack Obama are Jewish, which was comical.

What may be the case is that the Saudi Royals (but not Bushbama) have some Jewish ancestry, as I'm sure a lot of people do in the middle east including a lot of the Palestinian population. A lot of Jewish (and Samaritan) people have converted to Islam over thousands of years.

For what it's worth, I don't think it matters. I think for nearly anybody what matters is their current religion and maybe that of their parents and grandparents. Going further back than that is ridiculous.

The most likely reason that the Royals are soft on Israel is that they're quite wealthy and so they are inclined to prefer stability.

Posted by: Afro | Feb 7 2024 16:04 utc | 73

Backgrounder on the newly elected President (ie chief judge) of the ICJ - a Lebanese

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawaf_Salam

Posted by: Exile | Feb 7 2024 16:05 utc | 74

A story was planted in Reuters a week ago, claiming the Saudis were "desperate" for a defense union with the USA, to protect against Iran. The story claimed the Saudis were begging Israel to throw them a bone, to come up with even the slightest most-conditional "path to peace" for Palestine to give Saudis "cover" to move forward with normalization. Kirby's bloviation in context then is remarkably tone-deaf and arrogant.
Neither the leaderships of Israel or the USA appear at all aware of what is actually happening in terms of the collapse of any moral, legal, diplomatic authority they may have once held.

Posted by: jayc | Feb 7 2024 16:07 utc | 75

laguerre 28; actually it was the US and Charles Crane (of Crane faucets) that picked the Saudi Royal family, their horses were a big factor, Charles Crane a friend of Taft and FDR was a horseman who was impressed with the fine Arabians. Crane also lead a geological expedition in Saudi Arabia that found the vast oil reserves.

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 16:09 utc | 76

thanks b...

@ laguerre | Feb 7 2024 8:09 utc | 10

thanks for that as well..

@ Rubiconned | Feb 7 2024 9:50 utc | 21

yes! isn't that a fact?

@ laguerre | Feb 7 2024 11:08 utc | 28

one thing that isn't wrong is the uk/usa have been supporting monstrous dictators for a long time and in ksa as well..

Posted by: james | Feb 7 2024 16:15 utc | 77

I'd just like to point out what happened at the end of the previous thread: several people asked for confirmation of the toe of the man in the chair being nailed to the floor. None was forthcoming, and the pro-Israel Roberto jumped in to debunk the veracity of the story, though it may very likely be true. He then added several other pieces of pro-Israel propaganda, which ended up closing the thread, thus bolstering them with the aura of credibility he gained through his apparent debunking of the "crucifixion" narrative.
If there is a lesson to be drawn from this, it would be that the mendacity of Israel's propaganda is no dispensation from the need to document claims that are made on this site. Posters like Roberto are ready to exploit any such lack of documentation with pseudo-documentation.

Posted by: Gene Poole | Feb 7 2024 16:17 utc | 78

Tucker Carlson is going to end up like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden.

Posted by: Passerby | Feb 7 2024 16:17 utc | 79

@Norwegian | Feb 7 2024 7:45 utc | 7 @laguerre | Feb 7 2024 7:59 utc | 8

both in response to Boxwoodtree who is promoting genocide

instead of "troll", we should have an innovative label for such AI-grade promoters of genocide.. maybe something like "go to the far side of the moon, thing!"


Posted by: SlowDL | Feb 7 2024 16:23 utc | 80

Posted by: Gene Poole | Feb 7 2024 16:17 utc | 78

Give it a rest Gene. Was anyone actually convinced by hasbara "Roberto"? There's a new thread today. Be here now.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Feb 7 2024 16:26 utc | 81

The heads of consulting giants McKinsey and BCG told US lawmakers on Tuesday that their employees in Saudi Arabia could face jail if the firms handed over details of their work for the country’s sovereign wealth fund without approval from the kingdom.

Posted by: too scents | Feb 7 2024 7:31 utc | 4

A multi-trillion dollar intelligence apparatus.

Spies and henchmen at every layer of the capitalist hierarchy.

Sellouts and stooges in every corporate mailroom.

And still these clowns need to subpoena businesses to get information they can't get from their own intel agencies? someone explain that to me?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Feb 7 2024 16:28 utc | 82

If there is a lesson to be drawn from this, it would be that the mendacity of Israel's propaganda is no dispensation from the need to document claims that are made on this site.
Posted by: Gene Poole | Feb 7 2024 16:17 utc | 78

Yep, some wisdom right there, and a good post. Thanks Gene.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Feb 7 2024 16:29 utc | 83

actually it was the US and Charles Crane (of Crane faucets) that picked the Saudi Royal family,

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 16:09 utc | 76

The Saudi dynasty is actually very old, long before the Americans got into it. You don't have to believe everything in Wiki, but there was an 18th century state 1727-1818, and then Ibn Saud relaunched the state in 1902, but more specifically after the taking of the Qasr Masmak in Riyadh in 1908. The role of Crane was in the creation of the alliance between Saudi and the US in the mid 1930s.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 16:33 utc | 84

re; boxcutter comment

Granted, they did not phrase their thoughts too well but I understand what they are saying.
If there were no arabs in 'israel' all humans(1) there could be wiped out with a clear conscience and the world can sleep peacefully.

(1) we don't want to be like the evil zionazis:
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/2/7/israeli-snipers-target-sheep-in-gaza

Posted by: hedlykarok | Feb 7 2024 16:34 utc | 85

one thing that isn't wrong is the uk/usa have been supporting monstrous dictators for a long time and in ksa as well..

Posted by: james | Feb 7 2024 16:15 utc | 77

Saudi is a tribal kingship not a monstrous dictatorship. we in the west just have a rather different form of dictatorship; the dictatorship of unelected interests, e.g. the military-industrial complex.

Posted by: laguerre | Feb 7 2024 16:39 utc | 86

If there is a lesson to be drawn from this, it would be that the mendacity of Israel's propaganda is no dispensation from the need to document claims that are made on this site. Posters like Roberto are ready to exploit any such lack of documentation with pseudo-documentation.

Posted by: Gene Poole | Feb 7 2024 16:17 utc | 78

I think you've overestimated "Roberto's" powers of persuasion.

You should know by now that almost all regular posters on this list never fall for hasbara lies.

In particular, on MoA, lack of response rarely counts as an affirmative.

The golden rule:

"The Zionists are always lying, even when they are telling the truth"

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Feb 7 2024 16:41 utc | 87

What may be the case is that the Saudi Royals (but not Bushbama) have some Jewish ancestry, as I'm sure a lot of people do in the middle east including a lot of the Palestinian population. A lot of Jewish (and Samaritan) people have converted to Islam over thousands of years.

For what it's worth, I don't think it matters. I think for nearly anybody what matters is their current religion and maybe that of their parents and grandparents. Going further back than that is ridiculous.

The most likely reason that the Royals are soft on Israel is that they're quite wealthy and so they are inclined to prefer stability.

Posted by: Afro | Feb 7 2024 16:04 utc | 73

There we go again with the nonsense that Judaism can be passed down through the genes ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Feb 7 2024 16:43 utc | 88

@ laguerre | Feb 7 2024 16:39 utc | 86

okay... a dictatorship non the less, as continues to be most apparent... the west supports dictatorships..

Posted by: james | Feb 7 2024 16:45 utc | 89

and it was monstrous what mbs did to kashoggi.. so, i am sticking with monstrous dictatorship..

Posted by: james | Feb 7 2024 16:46 utc | 90

Normalization with the zionazis ---always an abysmal idea--- is dead for a generation at least and most likely foever.

Posted by: AllSeeingEye | Feb 7 2024 16:47 utc | 91

Biochar, it was the Americans the King/Crane expedition that discovered oil, it was the Americans who tipped the Saudi family. It's been the Americans who've given Saudi Arabia it's oil production partnerships. Delve deeper into Charles Crane.

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 16:48 utc | 92

@ Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

Go spread your filth somewhere else, hasbarite.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Feb 7 2024 16:53 utc | 93

@ Boxwoodtree | Feb 7 2024 7:32 utc | 5

Stop spreading such filth.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Feb 7 2024 16:54 utc | 94

Love Donboss; actually our local school board are one of the last remaining democratic functioning centers; no a few delusional crazies can't upend sensible policy. You DO realize a good library has a book to offend anyone; that's the meaning of liberty and freedom, not authoritarian dictats from a few wingnuts. Our national politics are corrupt, state politics are corrupt as those are big money centers; local politics are corrupted by big money, but big money doesn't care about wingnut agendas in school boards. Sorry, your delusions confuse you

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 16:55 utc | 95

Wilkins, the Palestinians have repeatedly offered to accept 67 borders, it IS a concession on their part. In my mind a two state solution is dead in the water, only a one state solution with equal rights for all will work, the alternative is no more Israel, it'll just take a while

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 16:58 utc | 96

laguerre, before the discovery of oil there it didn't matter. There were indeed several tribes that could have been tapped, it was the House of Saud and their Whabbist buddies that got the nod, the oil exploration and the scepter. Anything before the 30's is just goat-hearders. YOU need to look beyond the Wiki articles

Posted by: scottindallas | Feb 7 2024 17:03 utc | 97

A year or more ago, MBS was considered a clown by a good chunk of the blogging community, including here at MOA. But over time, I have noticed a shift to think of him in a much more positive light. I think he has become a much more seasoned politician/statesman/royal. His relations with Putin, moving away from the dollar, going to the BRICS, better PR with fewer scandals have all helped his image. I guess squeezing local rich people at a fancy hotel and killing opposition at your embassies is not consider skillful statesmanship. Now that those memories are fading, we can focus more on this accomplishments. It is all good stuff. I for one do respect him a lot more than before.

Posted by: meshpal | Feb 7 2024 13:34 utc | 42

The bar for "good statesmanship" has indeed sunk low when a thug with the business acumen of a junkyard owner can be considered "accomplished".

All MBS' "achievements" in the last two years have been a simple result of strong intervention by those far wiser than him (Putin, Xi, Khamenei) coupled with the primitive drive to survive pressure by the USA.

It was Putin, Xi, Khamenei who provided MBS with options outside of what the Americans would force on him leaving him with a simple means of balancing the scales of power in the middle east.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Feb 7 2024 17:07 utc | 98

You should know by now that almost all regular posters on this list never fall for hasbara lies.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Feb 7 2024 16:41 utc | 87
__________
I'm not worried about the regulars, but I do worry about those at whom the hasbarat - who surely agree with you about the regulars - are aiming their efforts.

Posted by: Gene Poole | Feb 7 2024 17:13 utc | 99

You should know by now that almost all regular posters on this list never fall for hasbara lies.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Feb 7 2024 16:41 utc | 87

Agreed, though it's not the regular posters but the far greater number of readers
who might be influenced that make it incumbent to document claims.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Feb 7 2024 17:15 utc | 100

next page »

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Working...