Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 10, 2024
Palestine Open Thread 2024-008

Only for news & views directly related to the war in Palestine.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

Bravo South Africa you deserve the world’s gratitude for that presentation. As comprehensive as it was concise, as strategic as it was focused, as powerful as it was unemotional. Brilliant lawyering in iowan vernacular. Didn’t miss a thing. If ‘israel’ wriggles out of being forced to implement provisional measures requested there IS NO international law.
WCNSF = wounded child no surviving family. That’s called keeping it real.
BRAVO SA for this overdue moment in history. zionism to the dustbin!
FREE PALESTINE!

Posted by: DuchessAndBob | Jan 11 2024 12:50 utc | 201

Now that We’ve heard from the ‘prosecution’ at the ICJ ; what arguments will the ‘defense’ make tomorrow ?
Posted by: Exile | Jan 11 2024 12:31 utc | 194
____
“We’re Israel. Suck it.”

Posted by: malenkov | Jan 11 2024 12:52 utc | 202

RE: Posted by: Exile | Jan 11 2024 12:31 utc | 194
“what arguments will the ‘defense’ make tomorrow ?”
1)I imagine they will begin with how the “Genocide Prevention” in world forum began because of all of the atrocities that besieged their race. Much elaboration will be spent on this, as they will want to portray themselves as the only race ever that atrocities were visited upon.
2) Terrorist attack and self defense.Probably bring up 911 and Pearl Harbor as a means to show that the US responded in an unbridled fashion/indiscriminate way of defense, thinking that will “support” their argument as a “precedent”.
3) Argue that Hamas and Palestinians are committing “genocide against Israelis” and want to “wipe Israel off the map”. They will probably refer to Iran and the “supportable” “axis of resistance.
4) Hostages will be greatly emphasized.
5) Show pics/vids of every imaginable “atrocity” committed by Hamas, real or invented.
6) Defend bombings as Hamas uses all Palestinians as Human Shield and has a tunnel and command center in every home, hospital and UNRW/UN building and refugee center and under falafal carts.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Jan 11 2024 12:53 utc | 203

There is no defense for genocide!

Posted by: nudge | Jan 11 2024 13:03 utc | 204

5) Show pics/vids of every imaginable “atrocity” committed by Hamas, real or invented.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Jan 11 2024 12:53 utc | 203
I expect them to make extensive use of generative a.i here …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 13:04 utc | 205

RE: “We’re Israel. Suck it.”
Posted by: malenkov | Jan 11 2024 12:52 utc | 202
I like your answer better than mine.
It would save us all time if they just walked in, stated that, and walked out.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Jan 11 2024 13:06 utc | 206

Modus Operandi
On Oct 7th, 2023 the Zionist’s false flag became activated.
As you recall: Treachery, betrayal, genocide and theft.

The NYT revealed that the Zionist leadership, including Mossad and the IDF, had the Hamas Oct 7th plans months in advance. They knew.
The IDF border watchers reported unusual activity. They witnessed Hamas training for Oct 7th. This activity was reported for weeks in advance. And Mossad had spooks crawling all over Gaza. They knew.
They knew.
So what did the IDF do?
They withdrew the majority of their forces at the Gaza border just prior to Oct 7th.
They inexplicably delayed their response to the Hamas jail break **for hours***.
They **multiplied** the number of their own casualties by implementing the Hannibal Doctrine.
They used their own citizens like sheep to the slaughter in order to create blood lust and enable the slaughter of Palestinian women and children. The real target of Netanyahu is not Hamas it is the Palestinian people and their land and their offshore gas fields.
Treachery, betrayal, genocide and theft.

Treachery, betrayal, genocide are not unknown to the Zionists.
Zionists easily tricked hundreds of thousands of their own onto the trains to Auschwitz. Easy to perform as they were the trusted
leaders in their community; easy to act as they had ignored their souls; easy to get away with as they would be protected at the highest levels in the new land of Israel; easily forgotten as they wrote the history.

Posted by: librul | Jan 11 2024 13:07 utc | 207

I have about 6 pages of notes on FarceBook. I don’t have the names of the speakers in the notes sry.
Here

Posted by: David G Horsman | Jan 11 2024 13:10 utc | 208

Jeffrey Sachs will be on live on Judge Nap in an hour. The topic:
Does Israel Have a Defense at UN Court?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWsAhHnHFNg
Could be interesting.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jan 11 2024 13:10 utc | 209

Oops Regarding the ICJ case from South Africa

Posted by: David G Horsman | Jan 11 2024 13:11 utc | 210

Pretty sure pictures will not be used

Posted by: ld | Jan 11 2024 13:15 utc | 211

Canada’s Liberal government, under pressure from a caucus divided on South Africa’s bid to take Israel to the International Court of Justice over its military actions in Gaza, is expected to declare its position today, as hearings in the case begin in The Hague.

Some Liberal MPs, including former public safety minister Marco Mendicino, are pressing the government to reject South Africa’s claim that Israel’s military action in Gaza is “genocidal in character,” while others, including Salma Zahid, are calling on Canada to back South Africa’s motion publicly.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2024 13:25 utc | 212

karlof1 @ Jan 10 2024 22:07 utc | 70

The naval strategy of closing off choke points along sea lanes needs to be rethought when the land portion of the choke point is held by OpForces given their new abilities as the ships become easy targets, not deterrents.

This is true but will be exceedingly tough if every minor actor has access to missiles and drones with ranges of a few hundred kilometers.
Some similarities to the submarines in WW2, suddenly there is no place to hide anymore.
Stuff will be asymmetric until we see anti-drone drone swarms.

Posted by: SOS | Jan 11 2024 13:30 utc | 213

Paraphrasing, South Africa demands Israel
1) Cease all military operations.
2) Cease all special operations and activity in orgarnization in any way related.
3) SA & IS will each, under the genocide convention, take all reasonable measures to desist.
4) Regarding the Palestinians, it will desist from:
…a) killing members of the group
…b) Any bodily harm to such members.
…c) harmful life conditions.
…d) Interference or prevention of pregnancy and births.
5) Further desist from genocidal behaviour, specifically:
…a) long term and any expulsion of members of the group.
…b) deprivation of water, food, humanitarian assistance, clothing, hygiene supplies, fuel and, but not limited to, shelter.
…c) destruction of life.
6) Any acts listed in 4 or 5, or incitement, conspiracy, intent, attempts or complicity will be punished. IS will cooperate and aid in this.
7) Preserver all evidence and provide access to investigators and officials without interfence.
8) Report to the court in one week, and after that as specified by the court or ordered, regarding IS’s progress with the above list.
9) Refrain from actions undermining or aggravating this dispute.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Jan 11 2024 13:32 utc | 214

https://t.me/Reality_Theories/16639
Francis Boyle on what could happen (optimistic scenario)
Jeffrey Sachs is the controlled opposition….he will know what tactics they intend to use.
South Africa was brilliant, very organized as well as preemptive strikes on Hasbara theatrics, pointing out that whatever Hamas is alleged to have done on Oct 7 is not relevant to this case. That Israel is an occupying power, no article 51 right to self defense etc.
Also citing all the previous political ICJ judgements that will now bite them in the butt since they establish a precedent.
Reminded the court its reputation is at stake.
The President looked a little downcast to me.

Posted by: Pq | Jan 11 2024 13:37 utc | 215

south africa are animals anti smites tel aviv have done much for this dump of a place over the years.
this is all nothing

Posted by: josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:54 utc | 216

202
i urge to watch the new movie one life about jewish children during the hitler times also schindlers list and sophies choice also the robin williuams movie when he is in the consentrating camps
history will absolve israel

Posted by: josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:58 utc | 217

Barrons
AFP NEWS
Israel Labels South Africa ‘Legal Arm’ Of Hamas
AFP – Agence France Presse
January 11, 2024
Israel on Thursday accused South Africa of serving as the “legal arm” of Hamas militants, as lawyers presented Pretoria’s “genocide” case against Israel at the UN’s top court.
Foreign ministry spokesman Lior Haiat described South Africa’s case over Israel’s actions in the Gaza Strip as “one of the greatest shows of hypocrisy in history”.
I guess that is the preview for tomorrow

Posted by: Pq | Jan 11 2024 14:05 utc | 218

PEST CONTROL!

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2024 14:05 utc | 219

Not a single Western country supporting South Africa’s ICJ Case. Not one:

– The Organization of Islamic Countries (OIC): The 57-member bloc, which includes Saudi Arabia, Iran, – Pakistan and Morocco, voiced their support for the case on December 30.
– Malaysia: In a statement released on January 2, the Malaysian Ministry of Foreign Affairs welcomed the South African application. It reiterated a call for an independent Palestinian state “based on the pre-1967 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital”.
– Turkey: Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesperson Oncu Keceli posted on X on January 3 welcoming South Africa’s move.
-Jordan: Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi said on January 4 that Amman would back South Africa.
– Bolivia: On Sunday, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Bolivia dubbed South Africa’s move as historic, becoming the first Latin American country to back the ICJ case against Israel.
– The Maldives, Namibia and Pakistan: The three countries expressed support for the genocide case filed by South Africa during a UN General Assembly session on Tuesday.
– The Arab League: The 22-member alliance also affirmed its support for the South African case on Wednesday in an X post made by Secretary-General Ahmed Aboul-Gheit.
– Colombia and Brazil: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Colombia and Brazil expressed the country’s support in individual press releases on Wednesday.

Not a single pale face to be seen.
In a court invented by the pale face.
With Laws made by the pale face.
With judges bedecked in garb invented by the pale face.
Justice is divided along racial lines.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:06 utc | 220

I guess that is the preview for tomorrow
Posted by: Pq | Jan 11 2024 14:05 utc | 217
I thought Schindler’s list was.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2024 14:07 utc | 221

PEST CONTROL!
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2024 14:05 utc | 218
Forget it, b keeps these things around to keep us scratching.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:08 utc | 222

history will absolve israel
Posted by: josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:58 utc | 216
There will be no ‘israel’ for history to absolve.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:09 utc | 223

Not a single pale face to be seen.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:06 utc | 219
Brazilian Minister of Foreign Relations Mauro Vieira is a “pale face”. There may be more.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2024 14:14 utc | 224

south africa are animals anti smites ….
Posted by: josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:54 utc | 215
Josip Golanim, or whoever you are, MoA is not Israel where human beings are called – human animals.
Do not ever show yourself here again.
I urge b to ban this person.

Posted by: JB | Jan 11 2024 14:20 utc | 225

202
i urge to watch the new movie one life about jewish children during the hitler times also schindlers list and sophies choice also the robin williuams movie when he is in the consentrating camps
history will absolve israel
Posted by: josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:58 utc | 216
Your ‘prediction’ mirrors your grammar and spelling.

Posted by: canuck | Jan 11 2024 14:22 utc | 226

These are interesting up-dates on the live feed at the Middleeasteye. A couple from this morning before the ICJ evidence started, and a couple from immediately after it ended. [Everything below this is from middleasteye news. The last one is especially egregious – Blinken claiming that today’s hearing DISTRACTS from efforts toward peace and security. Completely bizarre.]
——————-
6 hours ago:
Sufficient aid is entering the Gaza Strip and there is no food shortage, an Israeli official has said ahead of South Africa’s case at the International Court of Justice (ICJ). 
Colonel Moshe Tetro, head of the defence body in charge of Palestinian civilian affairs in Gaza said that contrary to UN reports that detail widespread starvation in the Strip, he alleged that “there is no food shortage in Gaza.”
The UN, international human rights organisations and Palestinians living in Gaza have warned of impending famine, drought and epidemics overwhelming the Strip. 
——————–
5 hours ago:
Nissim Vaturi, a politician from the party of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday that “Gaza should be burned” and that, according to him, “there aren’t any innocent civilians” in the north of Gaza. 
Vaturi’s comments comes as South Africa is set to present its case that Israeli politicians are calling a for a genocide of Palestinians in Gaza.
———————–
30 minutes ago:
The spokesperson of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement on Thursday, following South Africa’s ICJ genocide case against Israel. 

In a statement posted on X, he said that the hearing was “one of the greatest shows of hypocrisy,” and demonstrated “false and baseless claims.”


He added that South Africa is “functioning as the legal arm of the Hamas terrorist organisation,” and is seeking to “allow Hamas to commit the war crimes, crimes against humanity and sexual crimes they committed repeatedly on October 7.”


The comments come after South Africa said in court that Israel was demonstrating clear examples of genocide against Palestinians.
——————–
14 minutes ago:
The US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, said on Thursday that “South Africa’s genocide submission against Israel distracts the world from important efforts for peace and security,” according to Reuters. 


The comments come after South Africa stated that Israeli assaults on Gaza since 7 October demonstrate clear and plausible examples of genocide.

Posted by: teri | Jan 11 2024 14:26 utc | 227

5) Show pics/vids of every imaginable “atrocity” committed by Hamas, real or invented.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Jan 11 2024 12:53 utc | 203
This from Guardian’s live stream shows how SA’s legal team addresses the use of photos/videos:

In the latest segment of its presentation at the ICJ in The Hague, South Africa has made a statement which perhaps gives some insight into how they thinkIsraelwill approach mounting its defence presentation in tomorrow’s session.
Saying that it was not using much in the way of audio/visual presentation, South Africa’s legal team said:
In the speeches to this court today, South Africa has chosen as you’ve heard, to avoid the sharing of graphic videos and photos. It has decided against turning this court into a theatre for spectacle. It knows as well as your excellencies the temptation for both sides in a dispute to parade pictures to shock.
South Africa’s application in this court today is built on a foundation of clear legal rights, not images, and the detailed material before the court is marshalled to show a case for provisional measures based firmly on this court’s prior decisions.
South Africa advances its case on the basis that Palestinian’s rights are equally as worthy of protection on the unprecedented evidence before you as those of the victim groups that this honourable court has previously protected by its issuance of provisional measures in the past.
The material confirms the rights and their violation that Israel has committed, and is committing, acts capable of being characterised as genocidal.
You have heard from us about the direct extermination of thousands of people and children of the Palestinian population in Gaza since 7 October last year.
And South Africa and the world together stand witness to the forced evacuation of over 85% of the population of Gaza from their homes, and the herding of them into ever smaller areas without adequate shelter or medical care, to be attacked, killed and harmed.
So the rights are immediately and urgently in need of protection because of the ongoing denial by Israel of the conditions necessary for life.

Setting the South African presentation aside from “parading pictures to shock” and becoming a “theatre for spectacle” suggests they may be anticipating that Israel’s presentation will have a focus on graphic images of the atrocities committed on 7 October, and on pictures and footage of the Hamas equipment that the IDF claims to have unearthed inside Gaza next to or in civilian facilities.

Not that Israel will budge, they will of course try to play what the hasbara trolls also utilise in the bar and elsewhere: the eternal victim card.

Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Jan 11 2024 14:28 utc | 228

RE: Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:06 utc | 219
“Not a single pale face to be seen.
In a court invented by the pale face.”
Moreover… how is it that entire “continents” are missing?

Posted by: Trubind1 | Jan 11 2024 14:37 utc | 229

202
i urge to watch the new movie one life about jewish children during the hitler times also schindlers list and sophies choice also the robin williuams movie when he is in the consentrating camps
history will absolve israel
Posted by: josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:58 utc | 216
===================
All irrelevant.
Especially irrelevant if you are an AI, which is what it looks like.

Posted by: Jane | Jan 11 2024 14:38 utc | 230

I hoped that SA would have referenced the Knesset hearing 4th January where, Noga Arbel called for the immediate destruction of the UNRWA.
‘It will be impossible to win the war if we do not destroy UNRWA’, says former Israeli official https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxY-SVbnC2Q
Nothing saysrouge nation than that

Posted by: Hankster | Jan 11 2024 14:40 utc | 231

RE: “suggests they may be anticipating that Israel’s presentation will have a focus on graphic images of the atrocities…”
Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Jan 11 2024 14:28 utc | 227
I can’t think of a time Israel has NOT taken the low road. This will be no different.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Jan 11 2024 14:42 utc | 232

South Africa’s application in this court today is built on a foundation of clear legal rights, not images, and the detailed material before the court is marshalled to show a case for provisional measures based firmly on this court’s prior decisions.
Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Jan 11 2024 14:28 utc | 228
This is sheer brilliance.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:47 utc | 233

Brazilian Minister of Foreign Relations Mauro Vieira is a “pale face”. There may be more.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2024 14:14 utc | 224
I’m referring to the countries themselves – personification.
To be more specific:
There’s not a single “European Country” (“pale face”) …
Indeed the South African lawers have a lot of ‘pale faces’… but then, I’m not referring to meatbags here.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 14:51 utc | 234

I’m wondering: What’s the actual strategic goal of the US/UK Red Sea naval campaign?
Initially, the Houthis declared they’d target only Israel-linked ships.
With the entry of US/UK onto the scene, will the Houthis stick to this original aim – or will it escalate into a full-on blockade of maritime traffic?
This would hurt 90% the EUropeans, while US/UK actually stand to benefit: EU would become even more dependent on Atlantic trade (under control of US/UK navy), esp. in oil and gas. EU cut off not only from Russia, but also from Asia (more or less) – would suit Washington and esp. London just fine, wouldn’t it?
(Would explain why European states only send a handful of soldiers, to have first-hand info.)
(Sorry if this has been discussed before, haven’t followed all the threads.)
The naval strategy of closing off choke points along sea lanes needs to be rethought when the land portion of the choke point is held by OpForces given their new abilities as the ships become easy targets, not deterrents.
karlof1 | Jan 10 2024 22:07 utc | 70
Someone said about the Baltic Sea that it’s “essentially a canal, strategically – which is controlled not from the sea, but from the surrounding lands”. Same goes for the Red Sea I guess.

Posted by: smuks | Jan 11 2024 14:56 utc | 235

karlof1 | Jan 10 2024 22:07 utc | 70
Someone said about the Baltic Sea that it’s “essentially a canal, strategically – which is controlled not from the sea, but from the surrounding lands”. Same goes for the Red Sea I guess.
Posted by: smuks | Jan 11 2024 14:56 utc | 235
That suggests the US will have to occupy Yemen to prevent the Houthi from controlling the Bab El Mandeb.
Tough call. Tough neighbourhood. Not like Iraq or Afghanistan …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 15:01 utc | 236

Trubind1 | Jan 10 2024 23:35 utc | 89
(also @PeterAU1)
I find your post rather confusing. On the one hand, you oppose nationalism – on the other hand, you don’t want a global (somewhat democratic) order either. So, which is it?
The way I see it, the “death cult” (capitalism) you mention requires precisely the constant competition and struggles/ wars between states or blocs of states. Playing states and their different legal & tax systems against each other is what generates most profit in a globalized economy. How can such ‘globalized oligarchy’ ever be overcome, other than via global rules & some way of enforcing them?
There may also be some misunderstanding:
The current bloc confrontation of (essentially) “G7 vs. everyone else” isn’t ‘multipolarity’, in fact, quite the contrary. A ‘multipolar’ world has a number of major players, with no side able to dictate & bend the rules. In essence, it means taking the UN charter seriously, rather than using international law selectively when it suits the hegemon. Dunno how Beijing sees this, but BRICS may be a mere means to this end – once we’re there, the bloc could well be disbanded.

Posted by: smuks | Jan 11 2024 15:13 utc | 237

south africa are animals anti smites tel aviv have done much for this dump of a place over the years.
this is all nothing

josip golani | Jan 11 2024 13:54 utc | 216
You’re absolutely right – Israel was a close friend and ally of apartheid South Africa. Wonder why.

Posted by: smuks | Jan 11 2024 15:15 utc | 238

The current bloc confrontation of (essentially) “G7 vs. everyone else” isn’t ‘multipolarity’, in fact, quite the contrary. A ‘multipolar’ world has a number of major players, with no side able to dictate & bend the rules. In essence, it means taking the UN charter seriously,
Posted by: smuks | Jan 11 2024 15:13 utc | 237
Not necessarily. All that’s needed for a multi-polar world is a balance of terror on an equalized playing field.
Little countries able to band together to keep superpowers in check.
No “charter’ or single body of international law is needed.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 11 2024 15:20 utc | 239

Dunno how Beijing sees this
Posted by: smuks | Jan 11 2024 15:13 utc | 237
China was the UNSC December president. If you cannot recall, the last UNGA resolution (A/ES-10/L.27, Protection of civilians and upholding legal and humanitarian obligations adopted by the General Assembly, Dec 12, 2023) and how China voted, know this:
Position Paper of the People’s Republic of China on Resolving the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, Nov 20, 2023, is not a secret.

Posted by: sln2002 | Jan 11 2024 17:12 utc | 240

“Genocide Joe and the Electoralists” link:
<“>https://stevesalaita.com/genocide-joe-and-the-electoralists/>

Posted by: spudski | Jan 11 2024 18:01 utc | 241