Biden Admin Perpetrates Small Act Of Diplomacy
Via Antiwar I came to a recent piece by Ted Schneider
U.S.-China Policy Is Not Going According to Plan - Libertarian Institute, Jan 25 2024
On January 13, the Taiwanese returned the Democratic Progressive Party and its new leader, Lai Ching-te, to power. Lai’s winning campaign had a platform of promoting a separate identity for Taiwan and rejecting China’s territorial claims.However, the election may not reflect the simple mandate the West projects onto Taiwan, of turning away from China and running into the arms of America.
In her new book, Russia, China and the West in the Post-Cold War Era, Suzanne Loftus cites 2021 polling that shows that only 38% of Taiwanese want independence from China. 50% support the status quo of no unification and no independence and a further 5% prefer unification with China. Recent surveys have found as high as 91.4% support for the status quo, even while 78.4% believe that Taiwan and China are not the same country.
Those are valid and well researched points.
However further down I found this paragraph which contradicted my state of knowledge:
At the close of 2023, U.S. President Joe Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping met in San Francisco to attempt to deescalate the rising tension between the two countries. Chinese officials asked Biden to make a clear, public statement after he met Xi, affirming that the United States does not support Taiwanese independence and does support China’s goal of a peaceful unification with Taiwan. “The White House,” NBC reports, “rejected the Chinese request.”
Unfortunately the NBC piece linked above is full of spin, out of date and no longer factual.
Xi warned Biden during summit that Beijing will reunify Taiwan with China - NBCNews, Dec 20 2023
Chinese President Xi Jinping bluntly told President Joe Biden during their recent summit in San Francisco that Beijing will reunify Taiwan with mainland China but that the timing has not yet been decided, according to three current and former U.S. officials.
...
Chinese officials also asked in advance of the summit that Biden make a public statement after the meeting saying that the U.S. supports China’s goal of peaceful unification with Taiwan and does not support Taiwanese independence, they said. The White House rejected the Chinese request.
NBCNews make it look as if the Biden administration completely rejected to make a statement against Taiwan's independence. But that is not the case. The dispute, if there was one at all, was only about the timing.
The administration did not want to make the statement immediately after the summit as its preferred party in the upcoming election in Taiwan would have lost points over it.
So instead of delivering the requested statement upfront it asked the Chinese delegates to allow for a later timing. The Chinese seem to have agreed to that.
Just hours after the election in Taiwan was over, President Biden delivered the statement the Chinese had asked for:
Biden: US does not support Taiwan independence - Reuters, Jan 13, 2024
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Joe Biden said on Saturday the United States does not support the independence of Taiwan, after Taiwanese voters rebuffed China and gave the ruling party a third presidential term.Earlier in the day, the Taiwanese ruling Democratic Progressive Party's (DPP) presidential candidate Lai Ching-te came to power, strongly rejecting Chinese pressure to spurn him, and pledged both to stand up to Beijing and seek talks.
"We do not support independence..." Biden said, when asked for reaction to Saturday's elections.
The whole story is a rare sign of deft diplomacy.
The Chinese requested a statement from Biden. The administration agreed with it but asked for a delay and explained its reasons for doing so. The Chinese understood those reasons and agreed to wait. After the election in Taiwan was over the Biden administration immediately delivered on his promise.
Had Biden not fulfilled the demand we would likely have seen a rather harsh response from Beijing.
But the hawks were held back and Biden delivered. This will give the Chinese some confidence that other promises made to them will also be fulfilled.
Trust building is a necessary element of diplomacy. It is good to see that U.S. has not yet forgotten that lesson.
It should now do the same with regards to Russia.
Posted by b on January 26, 2024 at 13:05 UTC | Permalink
I disagree.
What ever Biden says the USA is going to arm Taiwan and use them as a battering ram to disrupt China just like Ukraine v Russia which had plenty of double talk drivel.
China knows this and there is no trust. I bet China has the barbed wire contract for Texas' new separatist border policy.
Posted by: Joe Sixpack | Jan 26 2024 13:26 utc | 2
China has a stronger claim to Taiwan than US has to Hawaii or Japan has to Okinawa.
Expect more pro Hawaii and pro Okinawa independence funding from unknown sources in the future
Posted by: Handsome Man | Jan 26 2024 13:31 utc | 3
As a poor ignorant person, I believe that Taiwan has the sacred right to autonomously decide its status as an independent nation, and possibly equidistant from both China and the US
therefore, its independence must be respected.
Posted by: A.cagliostro | Jan 26 2024 13:41 utc | 4
A.cagliostro | Jan 26 2024 13:41 utc | 4
Due to the US, there is no such thing as independence for Taiwan. Taiwan can reconsiliate with the mainland, it can retain its current status or it can become a US military base, a weapon for the US to throw against China.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 26 2024 13:48 utc | 5
US conducted diplomacy regarding Taiwan because it had to, it no longer has the capabilities to confront China at its initiative. Ukraine and Middle East diverted US resources, exposed its military decays, and shone lights on its allies' weakness. Biden tried not to be sucked into these two wars, but he couldn't. In Ukraine, he did not want to stop for fears of looking weak to China. In the ME, he couldn't, because Israel didn't give him a fig. So the de-militarization of US goes on and temporary diplomacy towards China.
In other areas, US continues to confront China's progress at US neocons' urging. No diplomacy, and full of incompetent policy holes.
A recent Asia Times article by Han Feizi, "Chinese and American cadres in a second-best world": "Since the Manhattan Project and the Apollo Program US cadre-style active management has fallen by the wayside"
......"It has always been a second-best world and the US will be operating with a handicap if it continues to cling to End of History fantasies. America’s entrepreneurs are no match for China’s entrepreneur/cadre partnership. Gina Raimondo and her bureaucrats at the Department of Commerce may be a start but, so far, they are still bureaucrats and not cadres and Huawei’s running circles around them."......https://asiatimes.com/2024/01/__trashed-21/
China doesn't need to invade Taiwan, it just patiently waits, grows its own economic and military strength, till the Empire self-implodes, and Taiwan's economy hollows out.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 13:53 utc | 6
b, thx.
side note Suzanne Loftus:
There are 2 famed Loftus men I know of, both named Joseph Loftus:
1) Joseph A. Loftus - reporter with the NYT on unions. Later worked as a communications assistant to George P. Shultz.
Is on Wiki.
2) RAND in the 1960s had an analyst of USSR WMDs by the name of Joseph Loftus, before at RAND the "civilian director of target intelligence for the Air Force". He is quoted in Marc Trachtenberg´s seminal Cold War study "A Constructed Peace" from 1999.
Suzanne Loftus on LinkedIN: "I am serving as Global Fellow at Wilson Center's Kennan Institute and an adjunct Associate Professor at the Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University."
Perhaps one of them relatled to her.
On the 2nd Joseph Loftus work at RAND :
"Alchemy for RAND’s Golden Years"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep13798.9?seq=1
"During his time as a civilian targeteering analyst for the Air Force, Loftus
waged a bruising and ultimately unsuccessful bureaucratic battle against Strategic
Air Command’s (SAC) preference for countervalue strategies, or city killing. Loftus and his team were the first to sift systematically through the deluge of
available intelligence in the context of atomic weapons targeting, developing
a robust understanding of the Soviet nuclear program. Project Wringer provided
the bulk of Air Force intelligence on the USSR between 1949 and 1953,
employing “1,300 military and civilian personnel in Germany, Austria, and
Japan to interrogate thousands of repatriated prisoners of war from the Soviet
Union and correlate the reports for use in target and other planning.”101 The
results of these efforts—aerial photographs taken by German pilots during
World War II, interrogations of German scientists conscripted to work on
Soviet military projects, reports from spies and émigrés—combined with rich
COMINT sources to create a robust intelligence picture. Loftus believed in
the viability of counterforce strategy; however, SAC proved more interested in
mass destruction.102 Exhausted and frustrated, Loftus quit the Air Force in
July 1954 and was working temporarily from RAND’s Washington offices
when Brodie, Hitch, and Marshall disseminated “The Next Ten Years” for internal
discussion and debate."
Posted by: AG | Jan 26 2024 13:58 utc | 7
China doesn't need to invade Taiwan, it just patiently waits, grows its own economic and military strength, till the Empire self-implodes, and Taiwan's economy hollows out.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 13:53 utc | 6
Taiwan's economy is hollowing out already, as the US tries to onshore chip production. Without a huge fraction of global chip production to support it, Taiwan will become Chinese again in a heartbeat. Beijing just has to give the rich bastards in Taiwan the 'Putin Deal': Keep out of politics and stay rich, or go to prison.
Posted by: Honzo | Jan 26 2024 14:01 utc | 8
@Handsome Man | Jan 26 2024 13:31 utc | 3
China has a stronger claim to Taiwan than [...] Japan has to Okinawa.
From a historical point of view, I'd say not at all. The Chinese claim over Formosa would be basically void, if the USA had not transferred there all the Kuomintang, altering forever the demography, the culture and the international position of the island. Taiwan is Taiwan because the USA needed to freeze the conflict between the communists and the nationalists in China and to delegitimize the rule of the CCP over China. Without that US intervention, Formosa would have become an independent state at the end of the WWII, and that would have been the end of the whole story.
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 14:09 utc | 9
Posted by: Honzo | Jan 26 2024 14:01 utc | 8
Current Taiwan government is in a Catch-22, self-inflicted harm situation. It wants to have international backing of its political posture, but US and its vassals offer predatory and blood-sucking kind of supports. It wants to ignore China, but its economy is fully dependent on China, both imports and exports. It divests into SE Asia, but with miserable results. It tries to invest into US and EU, but under colonialist terms.
It is so funny, US claims that it is helping Taiwan to prevent PLA invasion, but US itself has invaded Taiwan already. Just go to TPE and count how many Americans are in the airport and on the streets. Who is invading Taiwan?
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 14:24 utc | 10
China doesn't need to invade Taiwan, it just patiently waits, grows its own economic and military strength, till the Empire self-implodes, and Taiwan's economy hollows out.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 13:53 utc | 6
Some interesting development on self implosion I earlier posted to the open thread. Tried to repost it here but messed up and posted it to the ICJ thread.
It is over immigration/illegal border crossing, with Texas now evicting the feds and shutting down or gaining control over the Texas Mexico border. Looking at the map of states backing Texas, the divide is roughly in the lines of rural America vs woke coastal America.
Wokism and the massive illegal border crossing in the south is all part of the same parcel that includes drag shows for children, drug and surgical sex change for children ect ect.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 26 2024 14:25 utc | 11
From the ICJ thread: US civil war may not be so good for Americans but the best thing that can happen for the rest of the world.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 26 2024 14:11 utc | 13
Looks like we're possibly heading for a major crisis within the US. There are 25 red states that have declared support for Texas, and there is even open discussion on a hot war.
Let's summarise the Empire's state:
* Military defeat pending in Ukraine
* Withdrawal of troops in Iraq and Syria being considered
* Inability to protect major sea lanes and defeat the AnsarAllah
* Major "allies" (Israel) not doing your bidding.
* Possible complicity in genocide
* BRICS expansion
* Gradual dedollarization
* Rising inflation
* Increased internal polarization and now serious turmoil/crisis between States and the federal government
Sure, they sell more LNG to the EU and have stolen industries from Germany, but who benefits from this other than a few pockets?
I think we are finally seeing clear signs of collapse. will definitely affect financially the entire world.
Countries (and people) with higher autarky will weather this more easily.
Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Jan 26 2024 14:56 utc | 12
@SG | Jan 26 2024 14:09 utc | 9,
Without that US intervention, Formosa would have become an independent state at the end of the WWII, and that would have been the end of the whole story.
Not sure where you learned about the history of Taiwan status but it is apparently WRONG and parroting those who claim it is legitimate for Taiwan to assert independence from China. Without amerikkkan intervention using its 7th fleet during Korean War and support since, there would be no Taiwan problem now. Keeping Taiwan from China fits the amerikkkan interests but the value of the Taiwan card becomes lower and lower. The reunification will likely occur within a decade from now no matter what you say or think.
Posted by: LuRenJia | Jan 26 2024 15:04 utc | 13
Posted by: LuRenJia | Jan 26 2024 15:04 utc | 13
To US, Taiwan is a tool, use it when needed, drop it when not needed. Since 1950, that is the history, no amount of spinning by the West can change that history.
China will not hurt its own race in Taiwan. Just like Russia did not want to hurt its race in Ukraine. But as statecraft dictates, they will perform their historical duty if necessary.
All the sounds and furies by the combined West will come to naught when that happens and happened.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 15:51 utc | 14
"The whole story is a rare sign of deft diplomacy."
Meh. This is less deft diplomacy and more of a temporary climb down due to other constraints. While the Russian attack on Ukraine was going poorly in late 2022 and 2023, the US was getting extremely agressive on China, with senior officials visiting Taiwan, sanctions increasing on China, Biden himself saying the US would defend Taiwan, the silly balloon shoot-down incidents, etc. Now that the US is feeling tied down in Ukraine and the Middle East, with both its attention and its weapons supplies flowing that way, it does not feel in a position to escalate vis a vis China.
The US loves loves loves having Taiwan in its pocket, because it how has the ability to trigger a war with China at any point it wants by pushing Taiwan to declare independence, but still claim the war is defensive since it would be China attacking a smaller entity. This is powerful, but there is always a risk (however unlikely) that Taiwan could act on its own and declare independence at an inopportune time for the US. That is the risk Biden is tamping down here.
If or when the US is ever able to extracate itself from the disasters in Ukraine and Israel and refocus on China, you will see a denial that Biden's statement was ever made, or that it was misinterpreted by the lying media. The US will go right back to escalation, using Taiwan as the focus.
Posted by: Bob | Jan 26 2024 16:04 utc | 15
What's with all the simping for Taiwan from the commenters. It's a part of China plain and simple. They use Chinese language, characters, culture. Their national museum is full of artifacts from China. Majority of trade is with China. They freely travel back and forth from the Mainland.
It will be unified eventually either by force or by economic necessity as Taiwan loses it's only leverage and ships it's chip factories and talent overseas and the population declines. It has worse demographic trends then Japan.
Posted by: Al | Jan 26 2024 16:09 utc | 16
There is nothing 'woke' about the many millions of hard working, often 'illegal', immigrants in the United States. Most of them are victims already of US imperialism which for many years has not only plundered their countries but have shored up regimes of local gangsters who have stolen their lands and massacred them.
The people of Texas ought to be insisting that the federal government stop making Honduras, Guatemala, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Mexico uninhabitable.
The migrants on the border of Texas have risked everything, sacrificed everything, for the last chance they have of being able to keep their families alive by sending them money from the States.
' Do you think they want this? Does anyone think that the working people from the British Isles who were forced to emigrate-often enough on Coffin Ships- chose to do so?
Americans will regain the right to decide who joins them in their country when they take control of their own government and put an end to its crimes in the south and elsewhere.
In the meantime they can only benefit from mixing with men and women who have the courage to defy unjust laws and fight for themselves and their families.
Posted by: bevin | Jan 26 2024 16:11 utc | 17
Looking at the number of votes each pary got at the election there is no mandate for Taiwan to declare indepence right now and no indication either that Taiwan wants to join continental China as an ordinary province. Taiwanese will move cautiously. Status quo is not an option in the long run but there is no need to act right now. The prosperity of Taiwan resulted from the strength of the US economy after WWII. Now the US is no longer the leader it once was. Many changes are on the horizon and the Taiwanese will change their political goals as they see fit.
The main irritants that remain are the continuous shipping of US weapons to Taiwan and how the US manages to start a conflict beteen the Philippines and China. The past behavior of Washington acting as a bully has more weight than a passing glimpse of diplomatic veneer. My Taiwanese neighbour has pretty negative views of Washington and he was the manager of a large Taiwanese factory in mainland China before he was defeated by a virus that ruined his poultry business.
There are at least two structural problems the US needs to solve before returning to normal diplomacy. (1) Remove ghe operationsl branch of the CIA that acts as a private army of the US president. (2) Return the right to start military action to the US Congress and away from arbitrary decisions by the White House. Those are points repeatedly raised by retired US CIA, military and other employees.
Posted by: Richard L | Jan 26 2024 16:19 utc | 18
This is not an act of diplomacy but of desperation. They Biden junta knows that they cannot risk this conflict escalating further while the Middle East has just gotten "hot".
Posted by: Zed'sDead | Jan 26 2024 17:02 utc | 19
Well, well, Biden the Warlike once again demonstrates the Giang F*ck-up Theory of History! Huge mistakes explain more than conspiracies because conspiracy theories assume someone smart in charge, but stupid people outnumber and outpower smarties every time. "The race is not to the swift nor the battle to strong nor money to the intelligent nor bread to the wise, but Time and Chance come to them all." Ecclesiastes 9 : 11
US Fighting Fundies are probably jumping with joy, that the US is attacking another country mentioned in the Bible!
Posted by: lester | Jan 26 2024 17:12 utc | 20
@LuRenJia | Jan 26 2024 15:04 utc | 13
Not sure where you learned about the history of Taiwan status but it is apparently WRONG [...]
I am sincerely sick of this double-standard woke history. The native population of Formosa is of Austronesian descent. There were not significant Chinese settlements on the island before the XVII century, when Dutch colonists encouraged Chinese immigration, so to employ those immigrants as farmers, because the natives did not practice agriculture. Formal Qing, that is Chinese, control over the island started in 1683, lasted about 200 years, was sparse, partial, shaky. Then the Japanese had full control over the island for 50 years. Then the Americans brought in over one million Chinese fascists, to spare them from defeat: the fascists took control of the state, imposed their laws, imposed their language and exterminated the natives. That is how Formosa became Mandarin-speaking Taiwan.
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
If Beijing surrendered to Taipei tomorrow and the PRC became the ROC once more, the US government would still be hostile. The reborn ROC would still be a big, prosperous, non-Western civilization, which did things its own way. Probably it would not be very submissive to Uncle Sam. Note that Pres. Biden has said bluntly that if China's computer chips are not inferior to the US', it will hurt the US some how. He and many others want the Chinks to be poor, weak, and backward, like in 1924. This will not happen.
Posted by: lester | Jan 26 2024 17:57 utc | 22
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
Hahaha......you are funny. If you were right, then it sounds like you are an arch defender of the independence of the American Indians and the Canadian Indians.
Where were you when the American Indian Movement (AIM) met in December 2023?
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 18:10 utc | 23
China would be foolish to believe that because a US President says what it (China) wants him to say albeit delayed therefore US could be trusted to fulfil its promises. I'm sure the Chinese government is not that naive.
Posted by: Steve | Jan 26 2024 18:18 utc | 24
Interesting video on why the USA does not support Taiwan's independence.
Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Jan 26 2024 18:29 utc | 25
@SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
What double-standard here?! You are making things up as well as your own fiction about Taiwan for whatever agenda you have. As KitaySupporter commented at Jan 26 2024 18:10 utc | 23, you are the double-standard one.
Chinese started to migrate to Taiwan way back to Ming Dynasty or even earlier. Qing Dynasty took Taiwan from the remnant of Ming Dynasty in 1683. Qing Dynasty had the sovereignty over Taiwan since. That has never been shaky.
In 1949, KMT retreated to Taiwan after losing the civil war to CPC. It is NOT that amerkiians brought in millions of Chinese to Taiwan.
Frankly, what you said is full of falsehood with biased agendas under the typical west self-determination cover.
Posted by: LuRenJia | Jan 26 2024 18:37 utc | 26
Thanks for this posting b
I agree with you that it is significant. It is even encouraging that empire can be forced to publicly state a position that it normally waffles on.
Control of the narrative is being lost by empire and that is a big thing...a trickle then a roar of truth about our species forms of social organization I hope springs forth.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 26 2024 20:22 utc | 27
@LuRenJia | Jan 26 2024 18:37 utc | 26
Chinese started to migrate to Taiwan way back to Ming Dynasty or even earlier.
OK, then name one Chinese city founded in Taiwan before the establishment of the Dutch and Spanish possessions over the island.
---
@KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 18:10 utc | 23
Hahaha......you are funny. If you were right, then it sounds like you are an arch defender of the independence of the American Indians and the Canadian Indians.
I'd like to point out that American and Canadian Indians do not live under the British Empire, but in secessionist countries. Do you really want to compare Taiwan to the United Colonies?
---
To think that it all started when I pointed out the most obvious, that the Japanese claim over Okinawa is indeed far stronger, than the Chinese one over Taiwan. Sigh, Americans against Third World does really look like "Dumb and Dumber".
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 20:51 utc | 28
Friendly words. Good. Now look for US to make a move in the opposite direction in the near future. Such a two-step is the style of the current administration.
Posted by: pxx | Jan 26 2024 21:23 utc | 29
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 20:51 utc | 28
Man, you are hopeless, gaslighting people as you made up history.
China established admin center in Taiwan between 1279–1368 by the Yuan Dynasty. The Dutch arrived in the 1600s.
The Okinawans have been rebelling against the Japanese colonists after WW2 and trying to kick US out of Okinawa ever since. Every elected Okinawa Administer has been a staunch anti-Tokyo patriot. You surely are delusional, for real or deliberate.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 22:01 utc | 30
SG is correct that Taiwan wasn't an official state until the Dutch came but LuRenJia is right that it has always had Chinese settlers and was formerly taken back by china in the 17th (Koxinga). The Dutch did take more Chinese over to farm, but there was already a portion of Chinese fisherman located there and on the surrounding islands. The connection to the mainland is irrefutable, going back more than a millennia. Even the indeginous aborigines in Taiwan originated from south china, and have links to ethnic groups, particularly in Hainan.
Ruyuuku was far more independent than Taiwan was, being Chinese tributary until 19th century so I wonder why you used that example SG.
Also won't these examples go back indefinitely? Borders are drawn and redrawn constantly, and our map now may not be the same in 100 years. I don't think you can really look at history to back a claim (I get your point here SG). The Americas and Oceania won't be changed back to the way they were because it was wrong to colonize (as bad as it was).
The truth is that Taiwan is a strategic sore point for China for obvious reasons. I think the status quo would have held indefinitely, but as US weapons landed there, no way will china allow independence. I don't deny some of Taiwans desire for it, but they will have to fight and pay for it (as will China).
I did read something interesting on the idea of borders. Supposedly hard borders are a western concept. What was in china were economic borders, flexible depending on security and trade, that would expand and shrink constantly. If I find where I read this I'll link it.
I liked the Singaporean form FM Yong-Boon Yeos idea of a Chinese commonwealth. Maybe in a better future?
Posted by: Wee_Scot | Jan 26 2024 22:11 utc | 31
Posted by: Wee_Scot | Jan 26 2024 22:11 utc | 31
China established admin center in Taiwan between 1279–1368 by the Yuan Dynasty.
When the time is right, either peaceful reunification or forceful reunification.
If US wants to bug in, then it is welcomed. But US involvement won't matter. Did US involvement in Ukraine matter? In Israel? In Afghanistan? In Tibet? In Vietnam? More US risks, no US benefits.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 22:21 utc | 32
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 22:21 utc | 32
I am not disagreeing with you. My point was I don't think this is really a historical issue, but a modern one. I would argue that Taiwan is more Chinese now than it has ever been. And even though I don't deny some Taiwanese desires for independence, I also don't necessarily agree with it either. If "democracy" has shown one thing, it's that the general population don't know what their voting for. Look at some of the people we have put into power, look at Brexit and the Burden/Trump fiasco, and Melei who is currently sinking Argentinas economy, and that's just a few I can think of.
And the truth is with all the shenanigans and US money going into Taiwan, the DPP still didn't get a solid win, but lost more seats. I don't think the Taiwanese are willing to fight and I don't think the US help out if anything happens. A lot of people here are gung-ho, but I have hope this one will peacefully resolve itself.
Posted by: Wee_Scot | Jan 26 2024 23:05 utc | 33
@KitaySupporter | Jan 26 2024 22:21 utc | 32
China established admin center in Taiwan between 1279–1368 by the Yuan Dynasty.
As I said to your pal, then name one Chinese city founded in Taiwan before the establishment of the Dutch and Spanish possessions over the island.
---
@Wee_Scot | Jan 26 2024 22:11 utc | 31
Ruyuuku was far more independent than Taiwan was, being Chinese tributary until 19th century so I wonder why you used that example SG.
I just replied to the guy who said "China has a stronger claim to Taiwan than US has to Hawaii or Japan has to Okinawa".
Okinawans speak a Japonic language, a sister language of Japanese; Taiwanese indigenous people speak Austronesian languages, while Chinese speak totally unrelated Sino-Tibetan languages. Okinawa accepted to be a vassal of Satsuma in 1609; (part of) Taiwan became a Chinese province in 1684. While there certainly were Chinese people in the Pescadores islands, the historical records of a stable Chinese presence in Taiwan proper, before the establishment of the Dutch colony, is flimsy. When the Dutch occupied the Pescadores in 1622, the Chinese asked them to relocate to Taiwan.
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 23:21 utc | 34
As I said, Taiwan became Mandarin Chinese in 1947.
In the early '90s, the percentage of Taiwanese people wanting a reunification was over 20%.
I think that the USA always preferred a limbo status for Taiwan.
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 23:26 utc | 35
SG | Jan 26 2024 23:21 utc | 34
SG | Jan 26 2024 23:26 utc | 35
Please stop embarrassing yourself about Taiwan history you know nothing about.
According to the official historical records 《三国志·吴书·孙权传》[Ref 1], during the time of the Three Kingdom (220 to 280 AD), the king of Wu (one of the three kingdom) sent his generals 卫温 and 诸葛直 with ten thousand soldiers to Taiwan. Later, the Wu governor 沈莹 wrote (AD 230) a book 《临海水土志》 [Ref 2] to described what he saw (the environment, geography, produce, culture, people, etc) on the island. This was the world earliest recorded words about Taiwan, and shows that China has effective government control of the island about 1,800 years ago. In late 6th century, Su emperor sent emissary to Taiwan three times. From late Tang to Song, large number of Han migrated to Taiwan to escape from the wars in the mainland. During Song (AD 1120), 王象之 wrote a comprehensive 200-chapter books 舆地纪胜 about Song's geography, which has since been re-compiled and re-published into a 8-volume treaties [Ref 3]. It mentioned that Taiwan and its nearby islands of Penghu had been under the administrative control of Quanzhou Prefecture 福建泉州 of the Fujian province. And then there was also Yuan's control and Ming's control and so on (I won't cite further detail and references). All these pre-date the Dutch, Spanish occupation of the island.
Ref 1: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%A4%B7%E6%B4%B2?fromModule=lemma_inlink
Ref 2: https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv9817847
Ref 3: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E8%88%86%E5%9C%B0%E7%BA%AA%E8%83%9C/2062949
The indigenous people in Taiwan were just earlier batches of migrants from the mainland China [Ref 4, 5, 6]. There was also fundamental differences with European and Whites invasion in South and North America. Han migrants did NOT genocide, exploit nor replace the Taiwanese indigenous people into minority or poverty, because there were of common ancestry. In fact, successive dynastic emperors put very explicit rules to forbid later Hans migrants from intruding into indigenous people territories. They also wanted to ensure there was no conflicts or rebellions in the land they controlled.
Ref 4:
The most eminent anthropologist and archaeologist, the Taiwan-born, Harvard-educated US citizen 张光直 believed Austronesian came from Taiwan, which originally migrated from Fujian province, China:
“张光直先生综合语言学、体质人类学、民族学和考古学的视角,指出南岛语族的“老家”在大陆的东南沿海,而拓展和迁移则延伸到南太平洋群岛。在南岛语族的发展史上,台湾是第一站。闽粤地区的南岛语族先民从台湾海峡迁入台湾,发展出泰雅语群、排湾语群、邹语群和马来亚波利尼西亚语群四个分支。”
https://www.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_11642512
Ref 5:
Archaeological finding, DNA tracing, carbon dating, linguistic analysis and other evidences shows the indigenous Taiwan came from mainland China.
“根据台湾考古发现的有段石锛、有肩石斧、绳纹陶、网纹陶、黑陶、彩陶等等,均与大陆东南沿海一带的原始文化同属一个类型,因而认定台湾高山族来自大陆古越人的一支。”
https://www.sohu.com/a/232584978_621014
Ref 6: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/5105193.pdf
Posted by: d dan | Jan 27 2024 0:01 utc | 36
@d dan | Jan 27 2024 0:01 utc | 36
Look. The problem is simple.
We know without any doubt that Chinese people inhabitated the little Pescadores islands, because there is a full XVI century temple there.
We know without any doubt that the Dutch colonised Taiwan, because there is a whole Dutch fort there, also the remnants of another one, and a third one, too.
Now where are all the Chinese temples, forts, administrative buildings, required for managing a territory as vast as Formosa?
Yeah, all in your dreams.
---
About woke history.
The indigenous people in Taiwan were just earlier batches of migrants from the mainland China.
Maybe, but they were not Chinese by any mean. It would be like calling "Turks" the ancient Hittites.
By the way, I was always sure that the Jews could have their will in Palestine, because the world is full of people reasoning like that.
[D]uring the time of the Three Kingdom (220 to 280 AD), the king of Wu (one of the three kingdom) sent his generals 卫温 and 诸葛直 with ten thousand soldiers to Taiwan.
Not to Taiwan, but to some Yizhou or I-chou island, which could be or could be not modern day Taiwan. In any case they all, at least those who survived, came back.
This was the world earliest recorded words about Taiwan, and shows that China has effective government control of the island about 1,800 years ago. In late 6th century, Su emperor sent emissary to Taiwan three times. From late Tang to Song, large number of Han migrated to Taiwan to escape from the wars in the mainland.
Again, all those records refer to some island (using a plethora of different names) to the east, which may be or may be not Taiwan. Most probably they were confusing the Pescadores islands, the Ryukyu islands and Taiwan. Anyway some of those Han probably fled to the Pescadores, where there are traces of them, maybe to the Ryukyu, where there are some traces of them, but not to Taiwan, where there are not the flimsiest traces of them and there could be not traces of them since Formosa was inhabitated by aggressive headhunters tribes.
Han migrants did NOT genocide, exploit nor replace the Taiwanese indigenous people into minority or poverty
The KMT rule over the island has been shameful, especially toward the natives.
---
About the problems of seafaring in the ancient Taiwan strait: https://manifold.uhpress.hawaii.edu/read/7734e8a1-1db7-428d-a12d-2d39a1d1f5a7/section/6585b02f-f973-4821-b12c-0cd36db0955c .
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 12:57 utc | 37
Of course, many Taiwanese will agree that "Táiwan and China are not the same country", just like most Puertoricans and people from Hawa'i will agree that their home states and "America" are different countries.
Unfortunately, most English-language speakers and writers are wishy-washy in that they make no difference between the concepts implied in the differece between "countries" and "states: The "Girl from the North Country" in one of Bob Dylans early songs" is just as USAn (North American) as he was.
I have many places in Europe and in The Levant amused myself by addressing groups from different East and Southeast Asians in languages i knew that were not thirs: Talk to Coereans or Mainland or Singaporean Chinese or in Japanese or to Japanese in Chinese (either Mandarin or Cantonese), and they will always reply protestingly in English that they are not Japs/Chinese and so forth. But Táiwanese groups will unanimously say they are Chinese. (Hongkongers go some half-and-half between saying the are HK people or "Chinese. --Tose from Singapore will say that's what they are, no matter that they speek vrious types of Chinese). Q.E.D: Quod erad demonstrandem!
The reference to some 78% claiming to be "Taiwanese" may for a great part mean different things from different responders: It may mean "From Taiwan and not from the Chinese mainland". OR OFTEN: Born of parents who lived here before the Mainlanders who evacuated to here with Jiáng Jièshí' (Chiang Kai-Sheks nationalist army in 1946-49) had arrived here. Or in some cases that they are not ethnic Hàn people but belong to the 5-10% stemming from the ancient Thallassic Austronesians from thousands of years ago.
Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jan 27 2024 15:24 utc | 38
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 12:57 utc | 37
Like I said in a previous comment, if your copium logics were correct, then American Indians could claim the whole USA as their independent country, not just their glorified reservation prison camps.
China will take back Taiwan, peacefully or forcefully. China will not consult you or me. Past US behaviors have made it very clear, any wishful thinking in dealing with US is useless. Only reality counts. Just look at Ukraine, and Middle East. Who is scurrying around, shooting out narratives after narratives?
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 27 2024 15:48 utc | 39
AND PLESE, EVERYBODY:
When discussing and cussing over Táiwān province and it's possesion of some islands on Fújiàn (Fukian) Province's coast and 49% of The South China Sea, please remember this: "A Kiss is not a kiss" if delivered by US marines and that abomination between the Rio Grande del Norte and Canada that always brakes its vows when it seems opportune to those un-independent 50 semy-states and all their terrortories.
By the way: There still excists a miniscule goup of some one hindred families of Portugese and Hollland speaker - or at least their aftemathic popilations on Táiwan who still clame the ere the real "Formosans". Go visit them if interested! ("Fomosa" means "The flowering island", as far as I've been taught of its Portoguise origins -- thos Prrtwiners were privates, buckaneers and slave traders until by even badder Hollanders , Flanders and Flemmings.)
Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jan 27 2024 16:09 utc | 40
Dear Bernard;
I promised to support You with a little bit of money two or three years ago, but could not comply with my endeavour du to sudden complications (persecuted by Norwegian tax and pension authorities tha suddenly more tha halved my incomes and overtaxes by free-lance earnings for two years). Now I am up and going once again, and should like to donate at least one months pension hopefully for years to come.
Only condition: If we (me and my ) are allowed to entertain You and Ypur family if we pass throgh Hamborg when we shall visit the villlage of Hanborg/Hahnburg sometime in the future.
So please, good Bernard. bitte senden sie mir deine kontonummer unt notwendige personen- und bankadresse so dass ich meine admiration für Euer einsat auc peckuniärt darf asdrücken!
TOLLEF ÅS
+47 97484988
Tollef Ås c/o E-L Hahndorff
Skolestien 9
(anden Etage vænstre)
N 0374 Oplso 4
Königreich Norwegen / La Norvège
.
I implore all barfles to do likewise, even if it implies forsaking drinking bourbon whiskey fore a few days!
Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jan 27 2024 16:33 utc | 41
Then the Americans brought in over one million Chinese fascists, to spare them from defeat: the fascists took control of the state, imposed their laws, imposed their language and exterminated the natives. That is how Formosa became Mandarin-speaking Taiwan.
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
.......................
Thxs for your post. Your summary accords with my general impression though I don't pretend to know much about modern Asia.
Re 'exterminated': as in none left or if not how many?
Posted by: SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 27 2024 17:29 utc | 42
I will not be the last. Just look at Gaza.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 27 2024 17:49 utc | 43
@KitaySupporter | Jan 27 2024 15:48 utc | 39
Like I said in a previous comment, if your copium logics were correct, then American Indians could claim the whole USA as their independent country, not just their glorified reservation prison camps.
Like I answered to your previous comment, that is an embarrassingly moronic analogy. If the American Indians are the indigenous people of Formosa, then Puritan English colonists are the KMT, then the United Colonies are the ROC, and the British Empire is the equivalent of China. Can you see the picture?
China will take back Taiwan, peacefully or forcefully.
A forceful action against Taiwan could possibly open the biggest can of worms of this era: all the bordering countries (South Korea, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam etc.) would entrench themselves against China and seek the help of external powers (e.g. USA/UK/Australia/India). It would be WWIII. And I doubt that Russia would readily support China in that case.
---
@Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jan 27 2024 16:09 utc | 40
Formosa means "beautiful" (feminine) in Portuguese, Hermosa in Spanish, Formosa in Italian, Formosa in Latin. The Latin and Italian usage is more specific.
---
@Scorpion | Jan 27 2024 17:29 utc | 42
Formosan natives were killed by the thousands, their languages outlawed, their culture repressed and put to shame: today they are a little more than 2% of the total Taiwanese population, even though many more Taiwanese are actually of mixed descent (even if they do not know, do not acknowledge it). The KMT rule over Taiwan began with the 28/2 incident and the white terror, then 38 years of martial law, during which episodes of power abuse like the Kaohsiung Incident were normal. During the martial law years, that is until 1987, the KMT enforced a one language policy over a population that never spoke Mandarin Chinese before. The social and cultural landscape of Formosa was forcefully changed like never before, not even during the Japanese rule.
---
***IMPORTANT***
@b
Please, delete Tollef's personal data, before someone with bad intents spots that.
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 18:10 utc | 44
@ Al 16
Your argument that Taiwan "belongs to China" because Chinese is their language, is silly and groundless. Under that logic, all the English speaking countries should be one nation. I can't say how very happy I am, that this is not the case. As little respect as I have for AMericans, I have no respect for the Brits who cower before their masters, and little for the Australians and Canadians.
Having gotten that bit of spurious logic off my chest, I want to underline what someone else already said here, that the US threw away Taiwan's chance to be independent because the US ruined the possibility of Taiwan being a simple peaceful country that couldn't pose any military threat to China. Yeah, as the commet said, that died in 1949.
I don't believe Taiwan's economy is "hollowing out", and that's a good thing for everyone except possibly the Zionazi elite. For example it's unlikely, but if TSMC suddenly had one of its costly wafer fab factories destroyed, you could bet your last dollar, yuan or ruble, that the US would have done it. That foul deed had even been publicly considered by the usual suspects.
I'm pretty sure this will be a slow peaceful evolution, and that Beijing will get more creative in how it draws in Taiwan.
Far more interesting is the upcoming meeting in Thailand between the CIA director and China's Foreign Minister. I"m sure Burns will be wearing knee pads - discreetly of course. Oh, to have a bug in the room ! Big time comedy, most likely.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Jan 27 2024 18:29 utc | 45
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 18:10 utc | 44
Thank you. What is tedious with most of such discussions is that partisans, having picked a side - often with good reason - then project ONLY ill will on those who disagree with them and ONLY spotless intent on those they support.
Take Tibet and China: The pro-Tibetans feel that all Tibetans are innocent saints and victims whilst the Chinese are lying imperialists. The Chinese insist that because they drew up a treaty with a high lama - who may well have been a political prisoner as many before him had certainly been - that all Tibetans forevermore are Chinese and all people who deny this are lying imperialists.
Whereas of course the truth is far more opaque, nuanced and complex with plenty of praise and blame on all sides. I spent many years living with Tibetans, both in the West and in refugee communities in Himachal Pradesh. In India I witnessed a feudal, theocratic culture divorced from the native terrain and climate which had shaped it - and made me appreciate the West more.
But in all my years with them, I don’t recall even one complaint about what happened to them. Indeed, one year for my birthday my Tibetan teacher gave me a copy of The Analects of Confucius, knowing my connection to Chinese esoterica. The same year I met him, I first encountered the I Ching, finding its entire construct deeply fascinating, as I do to this day.
JessDTruth@45
Please tell us what country you are from so we can also tell you how bad it is and how little we respect it. Thanks.
Posted by: ABOBA | Jan 27 2024 20:05 utc | 47
Methinks the historical discussion of colonization/ control over Taiwan is rather pointless.
It is long-established Chinese policy (other empires, too) to control borderlands as 'buffer zones', to prevent the emergence of threats to the core provinces. Historically, this referred to Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia - while Taiwan was strategically irrelevant in Ming and Qing times. There simply wasn't any outside power/ empire who'd use the island to threaten Chinese mainland, nor did the necessary weapons exist.
This has changed "thanks" to long-range bombers and esp. missiles.
Under no condition can Beijing allow Taiwan to become a basis for a hostile military.
Posted by: smuks | Jan 27 2024 22:50 utc | 48
re: timing
It's quite interesting indeed that Biden waited until Taiwan's election on January 13.
(Did China really demand a statement that the U.S. supports China’s goal of peaceful unification?)
This coincides with a handful of other dates in the same week:
14.1. - Ukraine meeting in Davos, no tangible results
15./16.1. - begin of Russian offensive
16.1. - US starts withdrawing troops from bases in Syria
18./19.1. - US/China financial working group meets
18.1. - Congress passes new (stopgap) budget
Seems like Biden's statement was part of Beijing's conditions to keep financing the US budget.
(I had to google for any recent US/China finance meeting - and sure enough, there it was.)
Posted by: smuks | Jan 27 2024 23:37 utc | 49
Scorpion | Jan 27 2024 18:34 utc | 46
"Take Tibet and China: The pro-Tibetans feel that all Tibetans are innocent saints and victims whilst the Chinese are lying imperialists. The Chinese insist that because they drew up a treaty with a high lama - who may well have been a political prisoner as many before him had certainly been - that all Tibetans forevermore are Chinese and all people who deny this are lying imperialists."
You are grossly oversimplifying the complex history.
Posted by: d dan | Jan 27 2024 23:54 utc | 50
b: my post couldn't get through. Apologize to post them multiple times.
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 12:57 utc | 37
"but they [the indigenous people] were not Chinese by any mean" - SG
Really, so it is up to you, a foreigner to define who is and who is not Chinese? Look, the same indigenous people are staying in Fujian province and many parts of southern China today. Are you saying those residents of China are NOT Chinese too?
I know it is typical technique of you white people to define, divide and stir troubles among others for centuries. But those days are over, get use to it.
And the vast collections of scholar research, papers, archaeological findings, DNA tracing, carbon dating, linguistic analysis and other physical and scientific evidences do NOT count? There are over 1000 archaeological sites in Taiwan that linked them to mainland China, like the 长滨文化遗址, 圆山文化遗址, 卑南文化遗址, 恒春史前遗址, 凤鼻头遗址
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%8F%B0%E6%B9%BE%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E5%8F%A4%E8%BF%B9/1027591#2
"台湾圆山文化所见闽南青铜文化传播" Taiwan's Yuanshan culture witnessed the spread of southern Fujian bronze culture
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/372075352_taiwanyuanshanwenhuasuojianminnanqingtongwenhuachuanbo
"Now where are all the Chinese temples, forts, administrative buildings, required for managing a territory as vast as Formosa?" - SG
There are thousands of them, although many were in ruins. You should do the research yourself. Some existing ones:
台南盐水护庇宫 built in 1621-1623
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%8A%A4%E5%BA%87%E5%AE%AB/4978169?fromModule=search-result_lemma-recommend
台北孔庙又称“文庙”,始建于明末永历十九年(清康熙四年,1665年)
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%8F%B0%E6%B9%BE%E5%AD%94%E5%BA%99/6640531
蕃薯厝順天宮, built in 1668
https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E8%95%83%E8%96%AF%E5%8E%9D%E9%A0%86%E5%A4%A9%E5%AE%AE
No Taiwan is not a vast territory, definitely not by Chinese standard.
Posted by: d dan | Jan 28 2024 0:00 utc | 51
Part II of my reply to:
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 12:57 utc | 37
"Not to Taiwan, but to some Yizhou or I-chou island" - SG
Those were the ancient names of Taiwan.
"Again, all those records refer to some island (using a plethora of different names) to the east, which may be or may be not Taiwan." - SG
Have you read the books or links I quoted? Probably not. There were description of the geography, size, peoples, environment of Taiwan AS WELL AS the surrounding islands.
Sui general (and many others, too numerous to cite) also had recorded the distances of both Taiwan and Penghu (the so-called "Pescadores islands") from the mainland:
在隋代时,虎贲将陈棱曾经率领军队到达过澎湖列岛,见于魏源的《圣武记》:
台湾亘闽海,中袤二千八百里,距澎湖约二百里、厦门约五百里。隋开皇中,虎贲将陈棱一至澎湖,东向望洋而返。
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/371495204
Posted by: d dan | Jan 28 2024 0:05 utc | 52
China will take back Taiwan, peacefully or forcefully.
A forceful action against Taiwan could possibly open the biggest can of worms of this era: all the bordering countries (South Korea, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam etc.) would entrench themselves against China and seek the help of external powers (e.g. USA/UK/Australia/India). It would be WWIII. And I doubt that Russia would readily support China in that case.
Posted by: SG | Jan 27 2024 18:10 utc | 44
Hahaha......you are so funny. Copium to the hilt. We shall see, shan't we?
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 28 2024 4:25 utc | 53
@d dan | Jan 28 2024 0:00 utc | 51
Really, so it is up to you, a foreigner to define who is and who is not Chinese?
That is pure neo-liberal wokism. And that is why neoliberals are winning: there are no alternatives.
Now I'll show you the difference between wokism and European positivism.
---
Look, the same indigenous people are staying in Fujian province and many parts of southern China today. Are you saying those residents of China are NOT Chinese too?
You are conflating the Hakka people with the totally unrelated native Formosans.
LOL
---
Since you and your pals were claiming a millenarian Chinese rule over Taiwan, I asked for evidence of such presence before the arrival of Dutch colonists in the early XVII century.
The best you could find is:
台南盐水护庇宫 built in 1621-1623
ROTFL
Which is at best contemporary, but only according to a legend involving semi-legendary characters. The actual structure is from the XVIII century. It is in Tainan, the area of the Dutch colony.
台北孔庙又称“文庙”,始建于明末永历十九年(清康熙四年,1665年)
LMAO
Built over 40 years after the Dutch colonised the area. It is in the area of the old Dutch colony.
蕃薯厝順天宮, built in 1668
ROFLMAO
Posted by: SG | Jan 28 2024 12:50 utc | 54
Posted by: SG | Jan 28 2024 12:50 utc | 54
Your argument is fundamentally flawed. History is a winner's story, not an archaeological story.
China will take back Taiwan, peacefully or forcefully. China definitely will not consult you or me or US or the West to do that. Sorry.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/archaeology-as-history/51136585BB49B623BD790D14AE23CD5E
Archaeology as History
Telling Stories from a Fragmented Past
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 26 July 2023
Summary:
This Element volume focuses on how archaeologists construct narratives of past people and environments from the complex and fragmented archaeological record. In keeping with its position in a series of historiography, it considers how we make meaning from things and places, with an emphasis on changing practices over time and the questions archaeologists have and can ask of the archaeological record. It aims to provide readers with a reflexive and comprehensive overview of what it is that archaeologists do with the archaeological record, how that translates into specific stories or narratives about the past, and the limitations or advantages of these when trying to understand past worlds. The goal is to shift the reader's perspective of archaeology away from seeing it as a primarily data gathering field, to a clearer understanding of how archaeologists make and use the data they uncover.
......
......
Archaeological evidence has several limitations as a historical source, including:
Incomplete Record: Archaeological evidence is often fragmentary, and much of the evidence of past human activities may have been lost, destroyed, or never discovered.
Preservation Issues: The preservation of archaeological evidence is often subject to various environmental factors, such as weather, natural disasters, and human activity. This can result in the deterioration or destruction of important artifacts and structures.
Interpreting Evidence: Interpreting archaeological evidence can be challenging, as the meaning and purpose of artifacts and structures may not be immediately apparent. Contextual information and other sources of information are often necessary to fully understand the significance of archaeological evidence.
Bias: Archaeological evidence can be subject to various forms of bias, such as the bias of the excavator, the cultural bias of the researcher, and the selective preservation of certain types of evidence over others.
Limited Time Span: Archaeological evidence is typically limited to the relatively recent past, and may only provide information about human activities that took place within the last several thousand years.
Political and Ideological Motivations: Archaeological evidence can be subject to political and ideological motivations, with the interpretation and presentation of evidence being influenced by the beliefs and agendas of those involved.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 28 2024 13:56 utc | 55
@KitaySupporter | Jan 28 2024 13:56 utc | 55
Your argument is fundamentally flawed. History is a winner's story, not an archaeological story.
You are spouting woke talking points. I do not criticize the USA (and UK), because I need to take care of my cultural and ethnic insecurities by taking revenge upon the hegemon. I criticize the USA, because their flawed rise to power led to the emergence of the neoliberal/neocon woke ideology, as a result of their failing (since the 1920s) extreme capitalist system.
I despise woke imperialism whatever its source, while many here would embrace whatever is not American, even if it could led to a much worse world.
China will take back Taiwan, peacefully or forcefully. China definitely will not consult you or me or US or the West to do that. Sorry.
You should feel sorry to China, then, if that is their intention. I sincerely hope not.
Archaeology as History blahblahblah
Right, that is obvious. What should be equally obvious is that, in any case, you cannot substitute hard evidence with woke feelings, with pseudo-post-modern babbling. Archaeology can give us historical evidence: that evidence can be lacking, flawed, misinterpreted etc. That does not mean that we can substitute that evidence with fairy tales, but it means that we cannot be never absolutely certain about things, with, obviously, varying degrees of certainty depending on the amount and quality of available evidence.
The amount and quality of available evidence about a Chinese stable presence, let alone rule, over Taiwan before the XVII century is about zero.
Posted by: SG | Jan 28 2024 16:07 utc | 56
Posted by: SG | Jan 28 2024 12:50 utc | 54
"You are conflating the Hakka people with the totally unrelated native Formosans" - SG
You are displaying very poor knowledge of Chinese people. Look at the distribution of 高山族, one of the indigenous group in Taiwan. There are many who are staying in mainland since thousands of years ago like their ancestor. Are you claiming they are not Chinese? I can go on to talk about many other indigenous groups too.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E5%B1%B1%E6%97%8F%E7%BE%A4
And what about the archaeological evidences, DNA tracing, linguistic analysis, carbon dating, etc, etc that linked to mainland peoples - subjects that obviously beyond you, so you desperately try to avoid.
"I asked for evidence of such presence before the arrival of Dutch colonists in the early XVII century" - SG
No, you didn't specify "before the arrival of Dutch." You know Chinese prefer wooden material for construction, so most structure before Ming had been destroyed. Go to mainland, you would only find a handful of structures before Ming in such a continental-size country.
But even if all those historical text are fake, so what? It is beyond dispute that China has continuously asserted control over Taiwan since the early 1600's (except during the 50 years Japanese rule). That alone is a stronger claim over Taiwan than Europeans occupation of North America, South America, Australia, Hawaii, or Japanese occupation of Ryushu.
I also has many links about China maritime history and ship building tech (posted in previous comments, but couldn't get through for technical reasons). They were much more advance than European for centuries. Chinese travelers had reached Africa, Europe, and Middle East (and likely beyond), but according to you, they couldn't even navigate and identify some nearby islands, and had to await the superior Europeans to teach us something in our own backyard. What a hubris!
It is quite obvious that you have little knowledge and interests in Chinese history, but just want to assert your ideological over peoples you know nothing - wokism, positivism or whatever crap they are.
Please stop displaying your ignorance.
Posted by: d dan | Jan 28 2024 20:24 utc | 57
Posted by: SG | Jan 28 2024 16:07 utc | 56
You don't read, just blabber.
I trust more Chinese written history than your ignorant assertions which are meaningless and weightless.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jan 29 2024 3:28 utc | 58
@d dan | Jan 28 2024 20:24 utc | 57
You are displaying very poor knowledge of Chinese people. Look at the distribution of 高山族, one of the indigenous group in Taiwan. There are many who are staying in mainland since thousands of years ago like their ancestor. Are you claiming they are not Chinese? I can go on to talk about many other indigenous groups too.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E5%B1%B1%E6%97%8F%E7%BE%A4
Read the very wikipedia article you linked there: it says that (1) 高山族 is not "one of the indigenous group in Taiwan", but an umbrella term for all the indigenous people of Taiwan in the PRC, (2) all the 4,000 or so Formosan natives in mainland China emigrated there from Taiwan, so the idea that they "are staying in mainland since thousands of years ago like their ancestor" is complete nonsense, made up by you. Their ancestors left continental Asia, thousands of years ago: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%97%E5%B3%B6%E8%AA%9E%E7%B3%BB .
You probably do not even know what an Austranesian was before engaging this discussion.
---
@d dan | Jan 28 2024 20:24 utc | 57
No, you didn't specify "before the arrival of Dutch."
Wait, what?
There were not significant Chinese settlements on the island before the XVII century, when Dutch colonists encouraged Chinese immigration
SG | Jan 26 2024 17:16 utc | 21
OK, then name one Chinese city founded in Taiwan before the establishment of the Dutch and Spanish possessions over the island.
SG | Jan 26 2024 20:51 utc | 28
While there certainly were Chinese people in the Pescadores islands, the historical records of a stable Chinese presence in Taiwan proper, before the establishment of the Dutch colony, is flimsy.
SG | Jan 26 2024 23:21 utc | 34
---
You know Chinese prefer wooden material for construction, so most structure before Ming had been destroyed.
No! Read the discussion.
Look. The problem is simple.
We know without any doubt that Chinese people inhabitated the little Pescadores islands, because there is a full XVI century temple there.
We know without any doubt that the Dutch colonised Taiwan, because there is a whole Dutch fort there, also the remnants of another one, and a third one, too.
Now where are all the Chinese temples, forts, administrative buildings, required for managing a territory as vast as Formosa?
Yeah, all in your dreams.
SG | Jan 27 2024 12:57 utc | 37
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But even if all those historical text are fake, so what? It is beyond dispute that China has continuously asserted control over Taiwan since the early 1600's (except during the 50 years Japanese rule). That alone is a stronger claim over Taiwan than Europeans occupation of North America, South America, Australia, Hawaii, or Japanese occupation of Ryushu.
No, Taiwan was claimed by the Qing empire in 1684, while the kingdom of Ryukyu became vassal of the domain of Satsuma in 1609.
And this is the point of my discussion: the Japanese claim over Ryukyu is obviously far stronger than the Chinese one over Taiwan.
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@KitaySupporter | Jan 29 2024 3:28 utc | 58
You don't read, just blabber.I trust more Chinese written history than your ignorant assertions which are meaningless and weightless.
As I said before, you are an example of woke neoliberal herd mentality.
You said that China established control over Taiwan during the Yuan dinasty, I asked you where was the evidence.
Since there is none, you came up with the moronic analogy between Taiwan and the USA.
Since I pointed how moronic that was, you came up with the totally woke, pseudo-post-modernist propaganda that history is just narrative.
Since I pointed out that not all narratives are the same, you resorted to childish tantrum.
Posted by: SG | Jan 29 2024 10:19 utc | 59
Posted by: SG | Jan 29 2024 10:19 utc | 59
"高山族" -SG
You are right 高山族 is not "one of the indigenous group in Taiwan." I should type "阿美族" instead. But "高山族" was originally used by ROC, not PRC.
"the idea that they "are staying in mainland since thousands of years ago like their ancestor" is complete nonsense, made up by you" -SG
It is not just the 4,000 people. You have repeatedly ignored my evidences (historical writings, DNA, linguistic...) that link the Taiwanese indigenous to many peoples in southern China. But even if we would just restrict to the 4,000 self-identified 高山族, they also has settled in mainland for at least hundreds of years. So, I would ask one more time: are they Chinese or not?
"You probably do not even know what an Austranesian was before engaging this discussion." -SG
Talk for yourself. "Austronesian" is a western term. I have already provided link to show that ALL "Austronesian" came from mainland.
"No! Read the discussion." -SG
You first stated "the historical records ... before the establishment of the Dutch colony, is flimsy" (Jan 26 2024 23:21 utc | 34), which I countered by providing plenty of historical texts and links. Later then you asked where are "the Chinese temples, forts, administrative buildings" (Jan 27 2024 12:57 utc | 37), which I provided again. You claimed ancient Chinese travelled to "Yizhou or I-chou island", not Taiwan, which were the old name they used for Taiwan. You then arrogantly asserted that Chinese didn't know how to navigate and confused the various islands to the East, which I also proved you wrong. Your points have been refuted again and again: those are the "discussion."
So now, if you want to invent your own artificial standard, arbitrary evidences (only "buildings", no historical text, no DNA tracing or anything else), and self-serving random timing ("before Dutch colonization") to refute China's claim on Taiwan, then at least be consistent. Please find buildings before 1600's in every province of China. Or are you disputing China's claim on 吉林, 云南, 青海, etc as well? Also, please find similar buildings in North America, Australia, or Ryukyu and every parts of the world, built by current claimants before 1600's. Otherwise, you are not only an hypocrite, but just like a silly 5-years old kid throwing tantrum.
"kingdom of Ryukyu became vassal of the domain of Satsuma in 1609" -SG
I see, some Japanese revisionist history. Ryukyu was the tributary state of China since 1300's. The invasion of 萨摩藩 didn't change that relation. Neither China nor Ryukyu recognized that it was a "vassal state" of 萨摩藩. A trivial factoid for you: as late as 1800's, when confronted by U.S. about Ryukyu, Japan admitted it was part of Qing and redirected US delegate to Beijing.
Historically, Ryukyu natives (again, came from mainland) has more cultural, DNA, linguistic, economic links to China than Japan. Even the name Ryukyu was honorarily granted by Chinese emperor. Japan didn't, and still doesn't export much good or useful things, except wars and violence.
But if Japan insists on destroying the post-WW2 order restricting its territory to the 4 islands, and yet want to challenge China's claim on Taiwan, then China should reciprocate too. China would work with Russia to get Hokkaido, in additional to Ryukyu, independence. Good luck relying on the "United" States to save Japan.
Posted by: d dan | Jan 29 2024 23:56 utc | 60
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This is why we need to support MoA.
Many thanks, excellent analysis.
Posted by: Winston, journalist | Jan 26 2024 13:17 utc | 1