Nobody knows how much Trident in the UK will cost in monetary terms. Ever wondered why?
That is what is so revealing about debates over military spending. When the chips are down the numbers become irrelevant. Not one government minister anywhere has ever said that they can’t bomb Baghdad, Bazra or the Balkans because they don’t have the budget.
Of course that is because the numbers are indeed largely irrelevant for all government spending. In fact the numbers have become a mechanism in debates to avoid talking about the substance of government intervention in the economy — what the government proposes to use resources for, where it is going to get those resources from, and what the alternative uses are for those resources.
The parliamentary debate about Trident, people were mostly pulling figures out of the air, and that the government had not actually put a figure forward for the monetary cost of Trident. A few MPs actually asked that precise question and didn’t receive an answer.
That is to be expected, because Trident costs what it costs to produce. Whatever is required to get the job done will be procured and placed at the disposal of the project. The cost, as with any government intervention, has nothing to do with money. If it is available for sale in the government’s denomination, then the government can always purchase it — whether that is missile systems or social housing. And, if it wants to, it can set the price in its own currency — simply by banning or restricting alternative uses of those resources until it gets what it needs. You see this all the time when a country is at war, but people express surprise when you suggest it at other times.
The cost is, in fact, the people and resources required to create and build the submarines, crew the submarines and the ancillary services and suppliers that feed into the process. The unions representing these workers rightly asked what else these people would be doing instead if Trident was not renewed, and there were very few answers to be had on that point in the debate. MPs opposed to Trident failed to make any reasonable case for alternative engagement.
Most MPs opposing the motion talked in terms of money, about how the money could be spent on the NHS, social care, or housing. But again the use of figures masked the actual problem. The ship builders on the Clyde, or in Barrow don’t get up in the morning and think “today I’ll be a doctor”. The Navy staff don’t decide that they will build houses on a Thursday instead of piloting boats. It’s a ridiculous notion, and one that is rightly dismissed by the unions as hand-waving.
But it shows how ill-informed our representatives are about the way government spending works. They implicitly rely upon the magic of the market to provide ship builders, navy crew and parts manufacturers with alternative orders and engagements. They assume that people are mutable between professions at the snap of a finger.
It was down to Scottish National MPs to make an actual case. The engineers engaged in Trident could perhaps be used to create more wind farms, or renew other Navy vessels instead of Trident. But it didn’t seem to be at the scale or intensity require to replace the whole of the Trident proposal. Certainly I found no comfort in the suggestions, and I doubt the unions would either.
Those opposing Trident failed to win the argument on that point alone. They really had no alternative plan for the people working in the industries. And that always seems to be the case. When government lays people off, there is never a list of private sector employers sat there with cheque books at the ready. Even outsourcing’s open secret is that it is really a way for government to fire people without getting their hands dirty.
Government never seems to realise that the only way it can fire people is if they are hired and retained by the private sector. If that doesn’t happen then government just goes from paying people to do something, to paying people to do nothing. Hardly sensible.
So we have learnt a great deal from this debate:
when the chips are down numbers become irrelevant to a government, because they are largely irrelevant. Government spending is a matter of people and stuff. Always is. Always will be.
numbers are used by those in charge as a way of avoiding the difficult questions relating to real people and alternative uses.
government is very willing to deploy vast quantities of people and resources on a huge white elephant project, but refuses to do so on anything more useful to mankind.
It is time to break down the frame of numbers. It is time to refuse to speak in terms of numbers, and start talking only in terms of people and resources required to get things done. That way we can avoid the nonsense of pretending submarine crew can become surgeons overnight. We can address the actual shortage of skilled staff without believing they will magically pop into being just because you’ve taxed some rich people. And we can debate the actual use of the nation’s resources and ask if what people are currently doing is actually the best thing they could be doing.
When Thatcher moved massive amounts of skills and real resources out of ship building, mining and low end manufacturing into services and high end manufacturing. She believed that people are mutable between professions at the snap of a finger, can be moved around like ignots of steel. Just look at the mess she created. That government is just another organisation in the system that has to compete for resources by price. Business including large exporters and banks always get first choice of resources and government has to make do with the scraps. Thatcher believed the bankers and businesses should be in charge and that the population are just factors of production to be shifted around, like ingots of steel, as business requires.
So rather than ask will the comedian get the money. Ask what is he going to spend it on ?
If there is nothing left to spend it on. Then it is very easy for the Republicans to play political theatre and suddenly pretend they found a heart and some conscious. Danced along the yellow brick road and brought Dorothy back to Kansas.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 11 2023 23:04 utc | 104

I think Echo Chamber (and perhaps Bevin too) are saying that Britain neither has an industrial policy, nor even realises it’s not got one.
The UK is full of housing estates and retail parks that occupy the sites of former steelworks and car plants. As far as I know we have stopped making tanks and Storm Shadow missiles. We will shortly be unable to make steel from iron ore for the first time in 2,000 years, as we close the last blast furnaces. And we have a population approximately twice the size that the country’s agriculture can feed.
OK, there are still a lot of clever people who can cause problems for Russia with things like the marine drones. But the UK Government is mainly a threat to its own people.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Dec 11 2023 23:37 utc | 106

by shаdοwbanned | Dec 11 2023 22:48 utc | 98
Semantics and symbolism. We are with you, Ukraine. But, we can only send this, as we need to keep the Zodiacs for ourselves. Military effect is about the same.
However, the other thing worries me there is that minesweeper delivery has already happened, back in July and to me, at least it seems as a re-fabricated news altogether and it could be that something else more sinister is in the process of delivery.
From the Wikipedia for whatever it is true there:

In June 2021, during a visit by HMS Defender to Odesa, it was revealed that an agreement had been reached for two Sandown class ships to be transferred to the Ukrainian Navy upon decommissioning. Ramsey and Blyth were decommissioned on 4 August 2021 and following a refit by Babcock, were to be transferred to the Romanian Navy instead.
In September 2023 it was reported that the transfer of Blyth had occurred and that HMS Pembroke would also be transferred to the Romanian Navy in the following year.
In September 2022, HMS Shoreham was spotted operating around Firth of Forth carrying the name Cherkasy (Ukrainian: Черкаси) and the pennant number M311. Though still reportedly in commission with the Royal Navy, she was now training sailors of the Ukrainian Navy prior to also being handed over to that Navy.
In October 2022 it was reported that Shoreham had been decommissioned from Royal Navy service. She, and her sister ship ex-HMS Grimsby (now Chernihiv), were formally commissioned into the Ukrainian Navy in July 2023.

Looks like some swindle happening there and a good old switcheroo attempt.

Posted by: whirlX | Dec 11 2023 23:42 utc | 108

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2023 22:55 utc | 100
The government is the price setter when it spends. The market then works things out after that.
Austrian School of economics is A religious position, since money is nothing more than a promise, not a gold coin.
“Here’s a pig, owe me one” is what money is. Always has been.
There is no “cost” in financial terms – because money is essentially free to the UK government if it wants it to be – as that little note about the Ways and Means Account at the Bank of England announced to everybody.
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news/2020/april/hmt-and-boe-announce-temporary-extension-to-ways-and-means-facility
After all if you owned a bank outright who would you borrow from? Why borrow greater than 0%?
Now Toto has pulled back the curtain why on earth would we go back to ignoring what is behind it?
If it’s available for sale in Sterling government can buy it. The question is only whether they should. If it’s not being used by anybody else, there is, effectively, no cost.
We’ve also discovered that an awful lot of our economic activity simply isn’t that important. And in a lot of cases clearly a complete waste of time. We haven’t missed it. Similarly we haven’t starved, the shops are reasonably full, items are being delivered and the power and water has stayed on. All with an awful lot of people shut up in their house waiting for the end times. And if you’re in the mask supply business you’re in rolling in it.
These articles discussing numbers no longer cut the mustard, particularly with the young. The young know perfectly well that money is made round to go around, and they don’t use Sterling anywhere else. The numbers are free and there is as many of them as required to get the job done. Furlough schemes, 10 years of QE and an uncomfortable looking Chancellor trying to put the genie back in the bottle all demonstrate the Deficit Myth is over. There is no risk of rising interest rates when you own the bank. To suggest otherwise is just hard of accounting. Should be just set at 0% forever.
The cost of Covid is in real terms. What productivity improvements that would have been made have been lost forever? What training has not happened to improve the skills of the workforce? The damage to young people from six months of interrupted schoolwork will scar this nation for two generations, Those, amongst others, are the real costs of overreacting.
But on the other hand we have gained some information. Clearly we can afford to retire people at 60 and stop them having to go out to into the viral storm – because we’ve had acres of people sat around twiddling their thumbs for months. Just swap the young sitting around for the old sitting around and we have a solution that allows those at lower risk to get back to their lives.
Government sets the price when it spends. It tells you what you have to do to earn the currency and then pay the tax. How much you will get for 1 hours paid work. With the state the sole supplier of that which it demands for payment of taxes, the economy needs the state’s currency and therefore state spending sets the terms of exchange; the price level is a function of prices paid by the state when it spends.
There are two primary dynamics involved in the determination of the price level. The first is the introduction of absolute value of the state’s numeraire, which takes place by the prices the state pays when it spends. Moreover, the only information with regard to absolute value as measured in units of the state’s currency is the information transmitted by state spending. Therefore, all nominal prices can necessarily be traced back to prices the state pays when spending its currency.
The second dynamic is the transmission of this information by markets allocating by price as they express indifference levels between buyers and sellers, and all in the context of the state’s institutional structure.
The price level, therefore, consists of prices dictated by government spending policy along with all other prices subsequently derived by market forces operating within government institutional structure. Starting off with 1 hour of paid work. The market forces run with that knowledge.
The state sets the terms of exchange for its currency with the prices it pays when it spends, and not per se by the “quantity” of currency that it spends. But by the price it pays.
For example, if the state has an open-ended offer to hire soldiers at $50,000 per year, the price level as thereby defined will remain constant regardless of how many soldiers are hired and regardless of the state’s total spending. The state has set the value of its numeraire exogenously, providing that information of absolute value that market forces then utilise to allocate by price with exchange values of other goods and services determined in the marketplace. Without the state supplied information, however, there would be no expression of relative value in terms of that currency.
Should the state decide, for example, to increase the price it pays for its soldiers to $55,000 per year, it would be redefining the value of its currency downward and increasing the general price level by 10%, as market forces reflect that increase in the normal course of allocating by price and determining relative value. And for as long as the state continues to pay soldiers $55,000 per year, assuming constant relative values, the price level will remain unchanged. And, for example, the state would have to continually increase the rate of pay by 10% annually to support a continuous annual increase of the price level of 10%.
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1sySbx6EHOAYpAjE4FGnYApdZNyY6rh79KzajZxSU884/mobilebasic?pli=1

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 11 2023 23:47 utc | 110

Dima said 3rd Azov brigade has been completely defeated south of Kleschevka. That would normally be bad, but in this case it’s extraordinally bad because RUAF had some good results getting close to Ivanovka and Bogdanovka at the same time. RUAF would need to take the hill and forest line north of Bogdanovka though, to have a proper chance to take that village.

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 12 2023 0:15 utc | 112

Eurostat published Ukrainian refugee stats and put them at 4.2M people. Russia says it has accepted 5.3M Ukrainians. So whichever census guessing you prefer for Ukraine pre-Feb 22 you can take 10M people off the top to start. Some have put forward numbers as low as 27M total (though these may include population losses from 2014 which the Russian 5.3M will at least partially reflect). But even if you go with the most generous estimates of 37M, it gets close to losing 1/4 of the total population. The realistic estimates of killed and wounded start to look a lot more dire and the mobilization potential a lot less optimistic.
Russia will negotiate at any time. Lavrov, however, has pointed out that Russia will not ceasefire to negotiate. What Russia might accept at this point is a different question.

Posted by: Lex | Dec 12 2023 0:35 utc | 114

Yup definitely drunk. Wrong thread. Sorry.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Dec 12 2023 0:40 utc | 116

Don Bacon | Dec 11 2023 22:37 utc | 93
The mighty Wurlitzer of hubris rolls on heedless of reality.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 12 2023 0:47 utc | 118

YetAnotherAnon | Dec 11 2023 23:46 utc | 109
Labour had reached an impasse by the mid 70s. The only people thinking in the party were those around Tony Benn and, to a lesser extent, the ageing Michael Foot.
The government of Callaghan and Healey was politically and intellectually bankrupt: it knew what it didn’t like, socialist policies and state intervention, and the old guard in the Unions agreed with them.
Actually Callaghan was introducing neo-liberal ‘monetarist’ policies long before Thatcher. My memory of the time is fading but I recollect that one Peter(?)Jay, a son in law, journalist, neo-liberal enthusiast and son I believe of Douglas Jay the ultra-right Labour financial expert was Callaghan’s inspiration.
The truth is that the UK needed a new direction and what the Thatcherites, of all parties, agreed on was that it was not the government’s job to make the massive investments needed to modernise an economy which had been starved of capital (exported abroad for higher profits) basically since the 1880s.
Benn and Foot did have ideas built around the reinforcement of the efficient state sector, its expansion and a return to the long abandoned plans of the 1945 government- plans sidetracked by the triumph of Cold Warriors (at one stage I believe Britain was devoting almost 20% of national income to ‘Defence”) and vain attempts to police the Empire into producing Dollars to ‘re-pay’ the United States for Lend Lease.
Callaghan and the Jays did not believe in government, they saw the salvation of the economy in the private sector.
But, as Thatcher knew and soon became obvious the private sector saw the economy as being beyond salvation, at least until the working class had been bludgeoned into submission, so they liquidated it, auctioned it off, sold everything. And in the process of doing so destroyed the goose that laid the golden eggs, and had been doing so since time immemorial: the skilled, disciplined working class, millions of specialists lathe operators, craftsmen, draughtsmen, engineers, artists and teachers sent packing to the scrap heap or abroad.
Almost half a century later, half a century after the Miners Strike that brought down the Heath governmant and put Labour back in office, the job is almost done: the nationalised sector has been replaced by a shambles making money for investors while running down its capital, the Health Service is near death’s door, the anti-trade union laws have returned workers to C19th standards and just about everything is either imported or produced by foreign owned and managed firms. The North Sea oil and gas is gone (cf Norway!) the water systems have been privatised, all of Adam Smith’s natural monopolies demolished, the sewage is pouring into the waterways and half the population shivers in poverty while the government lowers corporate taxes and looks for spectacles to distract a population no longer able to pay to get drunk- Ukraine for example.
Don’t get me started.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2023 1:39 utc | 120

I like to think I have an imagination and I truly can’t imagine how Zelensky stays alive – and that is the overwhelming danger, as I see it.
Who gives him sanctuary? The US? Who else can guarantee his safety? Is the US going to give him Secret Service protection for life? So grieving wives and mothers can see him remotely at his Florida villa, safe and sound? Does Ukraine security have a reputation for assassination and crazy levels of revenge?
It looks to me like his only hope is to never get off of ‘riding the tiger’. A reduced, rump Ukraine, bankrupt and depopulated – with NO elections as long as he breathes. That’s a pretty tall order, don’t you think? Calling him desperate understates what he faces. The Servant of the People faces real cancellation.

Posted by: Eighthman | Dec 12 2023 2:27 utc | 122

Some videos for today.
Ukrainian special forces surrendered as Russian airborne forces stormed their position northwest of the DPR’s Artemovsk:
https://rutube.ru/video/324bb91c8b926289823689691f8419f4/
Russian Lancets destroy two enemy tanks and a self-propelled howitzer along the right bank of the Dnepr River in Kherson oblast:
https://rutube.ru/video/6eca11b4f99161688b240af69405d26b/
Russian artillery pounding enemy positions on the Zaporozhye front:
https://rutube.ru/video/56979b787f5e7ccafc6fa498e0c29beb/
Russian thermobaric TOS system fires on enemy fortified position:
https://rutube.ru/video/1b4e61f2c0a5a25a20dafa30be9ad282/
Russian drone operator and ATGM team destroy enemy observation post:
https://rutube.ru/video/4ec14770065573afd081e70cc6e71c5e/
Russian infantry fighting vehicle destroys enemy infantry fighting vehicle with ATGM:
https://rutube.ru/video/109ae22a623e45ba238b48115342bdfd/
Russian sniper in action on the southern DPR front:
https://rutube.ru/video/188b1fafab6445631f5ebbbdff5136b2/

Posted by: Nate | Dec 12 2023 2:36 utc | 124

Thanks to Britain for training Ukrainian marines to operate in Krynki
Great Britain is a little “turned” on amphibious operations. The former “mistress of the seas” and still preoccupied with the landing in Normandy, the country trained Ukrainian saboteur divers and the Special Operations Command “South” (formerly the 73rd Naval Center) in Ochakov even before the war . They trained specifically how to disembark from boats. In 2022, several British officers died opposite Energodar, instructing the Main Intelligence Directorate to carry out landings at the Zaporizhia NPP. But they were covered with artillery.
Today, the Ukrainian Marine Corps is dying heavily during constant landings on the Dnieper. And again thanks to London.
If you rewind to August 2023, you will find an official press release from the British government: “Almost 1,000 Ukrainian marines are returning home after training with the Royal Marines and Army Commandos in a six-month UK program.”
It stated that “British commandos were training Ukrainian forces in small boat amphibious operations – conducting beach raids using inflatable boats.”
The training was carried out by instructors from 42 Commando and 47 Commando Raiding groups, as well as Army commandos from 24 Commando Engineers and Royal Artillery gunners from 29 Commando.
Thus, the two-month massacre at Krynki is the result of training and planning of the operation by Great Britain. Ukraine has long been regarded as a testing ground. Now the Ukrainian marines have become experimental subjects. By the way, according to the latest news from behind the front line, the Marines on the Dnieper are now being recruited from the Ukrainian defense forces. Not everyone can swim.
The battle on the Dnieper continues, heavy fighting is taking place. But the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ operation owes its mediocrity to London.

https://t.me/sitreports/19286

Posted by: Down South | Dec 12 2023 4:27 utc | 126

Bosch plans to cut at least 1,500 jobs at two of its factories in Germany by 2025 to keep headcount in line with changing demand and technologies in the automotive industry, the maker of car parts company said on Sunday.
The plans, first reported by trade publication Automobilwoche, will affect factories in Stuttgart-Feuerbach and Schwieberdingen.
They are building New Plants in China instead!
Is Scholz excited for the 3rd Car manufacturing laying of workers? Great job!

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/78788

Posted by: Down South | Dec 12 2023 4:33 utc | 128

Posted by: Peter b | Dec 12 2023 4:40 utc | 129
Plus the cheap labour and the potential recruits for the imperial military. All in all, a neat deal for the uniparty.

Posted by: Constantine | Dec 12 2023 5:04 utc | 130

@Posted by: Milites | Dec 12 2023 0:44 utc | 117

At the time of her victory, Labour had left the public finances in such a mess that there was no choice but to radically cut back on what had become subsidised jobs in uncompetitive industries. Trouble was, this policy was continued by the ideologues who increasingly dominated her cabinet and was unwittingly abetted by union leaders chasing their former ‘glory’ days.

This is an utter fabrication of history. Right-wing Healey created a crisis so that he could use the IMF as the excuse to slash public spending just as the riches of North Sea oil revenues were ramping up (from 1976 onwards). These cuts, together with utter arrogance toward the unions, led to the “Winter of Discontent” in which Labour lost the election. Thatcher then deepened the slump with ruinous interest rates that drove up the value of the pound that was already being buoyed by North Sea oil revenues. Employment in manufacturing dropped by 20% in 3 years and unemployment went over 3 million. She then finished off the unions with the full-on state war with the Miners in 1984. The national debt as a percentage of GDP was the lowest it had been in 60 plus years in 1974, and the government was dealing with the oil shocks and the incompetence of the previous Healey government.
In her first government Thatcher slashed tax rates for the rich (strange if she was trying to cut the budget deficit!) and she kept slashing all the way during the 1980s. In her first budget VAT was raised sharply from 8% to 15%, and the motor fuel tax went up, greatly exacerbating the very inflation she said she wanted to cut! She did not cut overall taxes, she just moved them from the rich to the middle class and poor.
It was all about crushing the workers and moving taxes away from the rich. British industry was in bad shape in the 1970s due to appallingly bad management over many, many decades but the high real interest rates and high pound were extremely destructive – far beyond what was needed.
The demise of the British car industry in five minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38mRaSO5mNw. British Leyland was a disastrous consolidation, as management would not carry out the rationalization of competing models required and was not provided with the funds to develop new models. The Triumph Stag was a sad product of this craziness – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXxxZ3b-3X4&t=333s
The inability of British management to upgrade their technologies and drive new industries was a problem of the whole twentieth century, as detailed by Corelli Barnett on his series on the decline of Britain due to the lack of real industrialists and the inability to develop a full blown machine tool industry.
Now the UK is basically a global money-laundering and hiding centre attached to a failed country.

Posted by: Roger | Dec 12 2023 6:35 utc | 132

@Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2023 1:39 utc | 120
Benn was pushing for a real industrial policy, but was constantly hamstrung by the right-wingers and moved out of his industrial policy position. A great interview with Tony Benn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKd5Ij7QYi8 where he covers the constant problem with the Labour right-winger traitors throughout the twentieth century and then with New Labour (Blaire).

Posted by: Roger | Dec 12 2023 6:47 utc | 134

Re: Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2023 22:58 utc | 103

It’s probable that the plan is, if freeze occurs, start another war already in 2025.
If that is the case, run for the hills. Because at that point ‘Ukraine’ will be in Nato.

Are you saying the Russians are stupid – given what you say pre-supposes the Russians sign into this ceasefire and let the Ukrainian military rebuild and re-arm in the meantime?!?

Posted by: Julian | Dec 12 2023 7:32 utc | 136

Echo Chamber 104
PS I think this is one of your more sensible posts. You recognise that money is just a token for allocating resources. What I find missing from your posts is a recognition that there are different systems of money – even in pounds sterling money is created by private banks as debt, by the central bank as debt, by the central bank as fiat, gold – and there are other countries with other currencies and other systems and rules, and these systems interact with each other in competition through internationally agreed conventions, enforced at the barrel of a gun. Who gets what resources is a matter of power to coopt resources through money by force.

Posted by: Tim | Dec 12 2023 7:46 utc | 138

Samantha Power chimes in:
https://www.kake.com/story/50201789/opinion-us-cant-abandon-ukraines-economy-especially-when-were-winning-the-battle

Posted by: ZT | Dec 12 2023 9:18 utc | 140

Posted by: Roger | Dec 12 2023 6:35 utc | 132
Excellent River ! Very well said.
” Labour had left the public finances in such a mess”
Is the usual nonsense. Ask them what they mean by that, go on ask them what they mean by a ” mess”
What you will get is the usual nonsense.
The deficit is like that of a household and the debt is like that of a household. The tax payer money myth.
All gold standard , fixed exchange rate thinking.
The public finances were not in a mess that is the brainwashing technique they use to cause any crises. Again Thatcher just like Volker hiked interest rates to unprecedented levels in the false Monetarists belief it fights inflation. They caused the crises see Argentina for details.
They caused the crises to push through their neoliberal reforms. Destroyed human lives to do it.
The clowns are even saying it now that the Tories have left the public finances in a mess lol. Using all the same bullshit and brainwashing technique.
” Our national debt is currently slightly over 100 per cent of GDP, which means we are not only depriving our little ones of the unique care of their mothers, but we are also dumping a deficit on them that they will spend their lifetimes repaying.”
Why do people repeat this arrant nonsense without thought? They have been potty trained from the age of 5 to do so.
The truth:
There is no national debt, only national savings. That is, after all, what a Gilt is. A gilt edged saving certificate.
And like all savings it disappears when the person owing it stops saving and starts spending. Servicing such spending is, of course, how other people earn an income in the private sector.
They NEVER Stop and think. Ask if you are being lied to.
It is amazing how easy it is to brainwash people when you describe government finances like that of a household.
Even now after having a front row seat, 1 yard from the stage for the last 3 years watching how money is created from thin air by government and banks. They still to refuse to believe their own eyes and what they saw.
Still think their taxes fund the issuer of the currency still think both the deficit and debt are like that of a household. After everything they watched with their own eyes.
That right there is the power of brainwashing and being potty trained from the age of 5 to believe such bullshit. Voters are ideologically driven and as dumb as a bag of spanners.
Go on ask them what they mean by the “public” finances being in a mess. Go on ask them, Even using the word ” public ‘ gives their game away. That they don’t understand money.
Here’s another favourite of theirs – the ideologue and idiot will say.
“The purchasing power and value is entirely on a trust basis.”
No it’s not.
I the government impose a tax on you in £’s, which I will enforce by confiscating all your assets and denying you your liberty by throwing you in jail if you don’t pay the tax liabilities I impose on you.
Whether you trust the £ or not, you’ll endeavour to get some – because that is cheaper than the alternative.
And the only way to get some £’s is to offer your assets or effort for sale to the issuer of £ (me). Or exchange with somebody who already has £’s.
No trust required. Just a simple market calculation and a selection of the discounted option.
The value of the currency is then simple. It’s how much effort I require from you in return for the £’s you need to settle your tax liabilities to me.
End of story.
I the government set the price when I spend, when I buy things to provision myself. Market forces then price off that information. See above for details.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 12 2023 11:29 utc | 142

laguerre | Dec 11 2023 19:49 utc | 66
A current day warship must be able to launch missiles. Ground attack/long range sea to sea ect.
As far as I know it is only Russia that can launch missiles from ships small enough to traverse inland waterways, in particular the Caspian sea fleet.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 11 2023 20:01 utc | 69
That is my understanding.

Posted by: canuck | Dec 12 2023 11:44 utc | 144

Constantine @123: “f this whole affair about the aluminum industry has been left to deteriorate so that the state can reclaim Rusal without appearing “radical” I’m okay with it.”
Rusal is a major part of Oleg Deripaska’s empire, with Rothschild influence. It is not the state’s responsibility to make sure those people continue to roll in wealth. It would go a long way towards rehabilitating Putin from his liberal image if he leads Russia towards renationalizing the aluminum industry there.
By the way, a big bauxite mining operation belonging to Rusal is in Guyana. I wonder if that is in the part of Guyana that is becoming Venezuela? If so, and Rusal is renationalized, then protection of Russian state assets justifies increased defense cooperation between Russia and Venezuela. Interesting speculation…

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 12 2023 11:50 utc | 146

Serious question – can you remind me again why every African nation isn’t rich?
Posted by: Tim | Dec 12 2023 7:39 utc | 137
Skills and real resources and productive capacity of their economy Tim and who controls All of it.
Which is my whole point of the last 10 posts.It is about what you do with your people and real resources. Numbers being used just hide the problem.
Imperialism and colonialism stopped them from using their own skills and real resources for themselves and imposed the French CAC currency on them. So that their skills and real resources were used to serve France and other colonial powers.
Fadhel Kaboub has written extensively about it. Understands money 100%. He is the new president of the global institute of global prosperity.
Decolonizing Our Minds with Fadhel Kaboub
https://realprogressives.org/podcast_episode/episode-245-decolonizing-our-minds-with-fadhel-kaboub
Africa’s place in a Multi polar world with Fadhel Kaboub
https://realprogressives.org/podcast_episode/episode-200-africas-place-in-the-multi-polar-order-with-fadhel-kaboub/
Neocolonialism and the Unholy Trinity with Fadhel Kaboub
https://realprogressives.org/podcast_episode/episode-175-neocolonialism-and-the-unholy-trinity-with-fadhel-kaboub/
Economic Sovereignty ~ by Fadhel Kaboub
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HXv8STXCAeM
All of these are excellent and the starting point for any discussion about the global South Tim.
Ndongo Samba Sylla is another guy that understands money 100% and we’ll worth reading.
CONFRONTING MONETARY IMPERIALISM IN FRANCOPHONE AFRICA WITH NDONGO SAMBA SYLLA
https://moneyontheleft.org/2019/03/15/confronting-monetary-imperialism-in-francophone-africa-with-ndongo-samba-sylla/
Ndongo Samba Sylla is a Senegalese development economist and Research and Programme manager at the West Africa office of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation. Sylla is also the author of many articles and three books, including the recently published L’Arme Invisible de la Francafrique, or “The Invisible Weapon of Franco-African Imperialism.” In that book, Sylla and coauthor Fanny Pigeaud lay out a comprehensive case against the CFA Franc, a neocolonial currency union that presently constrains the social, political, and economic prospects of each of its member states.
Both Fadhel and Ndongo are pushing for African sovereignty and changing the IMF and World bank and replacing them with something else. Their work is excellent and answers any of your questions about Africa beautifully Tim.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 12 2023 12:01 utc | 148

https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2023/12/patriot-pac3-is-having.html
… a very bad time against Kinzhals.
Российские гиперзвуковые ракеты “Кинжал” нанесли удар по стратегическим объектам военной инфраструктуры ВСУ в Киеве – в частности, по американскому зенитному комплексу Patriot в левобережной части столицы Украины. Воздушная тревога была объявлена уже после поражения объектов. Это указывает на то, что терминальный участок траектории ракет пролегал под углом более 73 градусов к поверхности, в мертвой зоне многофункциональной РЛС американского комплекса MPQ-53/65, пишет “Русское оружие”. Пикировать на цель вертикально, вне поля зрения систем ПВО – фирменный трюк многих российских ракет (например, “Искандера”). Также отсутствие своевременной реакции на ракетную атаку говорит об отсутствии на боевом дежурстве других радиолокационных комплексов, способных отслеживать сложные баллистические цели с малой эффективной поверхностью рассеяния.
Translation: Russian hypersonic Kinzhal missiles struck strategic military infrastructure facilities of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Kyiv – in particular, the American Patriot anti-aircraft complex in the left bank of the Ukrainian capital. The air raid alert was announced after the targets were hit. This indicates that the terminal part of the missiles’ trajectory ran at an angle of more than 73 degrees to the surface, in the dead zone of the multifunctional radar of the American MPQ-53/65 complex, writes Russian Weapons. Diving vertically onto a target, out of sight of air defense systems, is a signature trick of many Russian missiles (for example, Iskander). Also, the lack of a timely response to a missile attack indicates the absence of other radar systems on combat duty capable of tracking complex ballistic targets with a small effective scattering surface.
smoothiex12

Posted by: chop | Dec 12 2023 12:07 utc | 150

It’s been postulated that units capable of a coup are sent straight to krinki, only ‘reliable’ troops are left near the capital.

Posted by: Jim | Dec 12 2023 12:12 utc | 152

Maybe when Russia has conquered all of Ukraine they can offer land plots to Americans, like the old Homesteader Act! It would help fix the Russian labour shortage.
Posted by: Roger | Dec 12 2023 6:40 utc | 133
lol
Good to see you Roger
This sentiment was expressed at our thanksgiving table.
Our country has been overun by degenerates with no end in sight.
I would rather see my grandkids raised in Russia than this clown show.

Posted by: ld | Dec 12 2023 12:39 utc | 154

@ 136.
Are they going breed a new army in Axlotl Tanks, like the bloody Tleilaxu from Dune?
Ukrainian demographics can be summarised in one word f**ked, which is ironic given the fruitful lack-thereof. Is a big part of the problem.
And that was before the SMO, they’ve peaked. There’s insufficient “human capital” in Ukraine to build-up the required army. Even sustainment is tapping them out.
This is particularly bad news, since the AFU’s numerical advantage has shrunk and is on a relentless downward trajectory.

Posted by: Urban Fox | Dec 12 2023 13:06 utc | 156

If this is correct then it looks like US is moving towards direct war with Russia as Biden has stated.

Victor vicktop55
@vicktop55
The War.
Military expert Alexander Zimovsky: The Pentagon has transferred the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the Eastern Front to manual control.
Now the main commander of the Ukrainian troops will be the American Lieutenant General Antonio Aguto Jr.
He and a group of senior Pentagon staff officers will arrive in Kyiv in the next few days and will take over the planning and management of all combat operations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Thus, the Pentagon is deploying a full-fledged apparatus in Ukraine with the constant presence of American military advisers in native units and formations.
General Aguto has experience commanding the Third Infantry Division and commanding the First US Army, which is a training and mobilization (cadre) combined arms reserve army.
So, to further continue the war in Ukraine, the Americans chose the Vietnamese-Afghan template.
De facto, the US war against Russia can be considered officially declared.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 12 2023 15:12 utc | 158

“… the Atlee Labour government (1945-50) and their ‘nationalization’ began the destruction of Britsh industry long before Thatcher.” canuck@151
This is just untrue. Although British industry suffered throughout the post war period from a lack of investment the nationalised coal, railway, utilities and other industries were both efficient and a vital underpinning of the economy. Togethe with the Health Service, Social Security and the expanding education system they put Britain in a very good position to build on its strengths.
There were two fundamental problems. The first was (and remains it will be inscribed on Britain’s tombstone) the US alliance which drained Britain of enormous amounts of money, led to the destruction of several key industries including aviation, civil and military and deprived the state of any agency abroad. It became, what Canada now is, an echo for the United States, which had and has and pursues its own interests.
It is a curious thing, canuck, that you, who blames the City for everything around the world, normally without reason, cannot recognise, so deeply died is the Daily Express/Mail propaganda in your, presumably ex-British, brain that you do not realise the part that the City played where it wasa giant.
It was the City which put Thatcher in power, inspired her policies and demanded that the nationalised industries (including the enormous stock of public housing in which tens of millions of people thrived) be butchered and sold off as ‘profit centres’.
And then, they demanded, as they still do, the crushing of the Trade Unions.
These are the people whose central belief it is that “if the people are not hungry they will not work.”
To keep them hungry and make them beg for work the City insisted (and the US seconded it) that the nationalised industries be shut down, the free education system ended, the Health Service demolished and all talk of the New Jerusalem ended.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2023 16:02 utc | 160

Posted by: Tranceislife | Dec 12 2023 19:05 utc | 161
Have seen similar theories, while I’m not inclined to say that’s what is going on, like you I can’t completely rule out that possibility, and not the first time (front) where I’ve wondered if there was some element of that being done (assigning battalions with inconvenient persons to highly active fronts..hoping some problems might ‘solve themselves’).

Posted by: knighthawk | Dec 12 2023 20:28 utc | 162

Posted by: Mark T | Dec 12 2023 21:55 utc | 163
It’s probably around 50k vs. 350k (KIA), or 150k vs 1100k including wounded RU/UKR.
The fact that Ukrainian commissars are raiding sanitoriums, movie theaters, gyms, restaurants all over the country could support this. In Russia, there is no such thing. Not a single video of military commissars raiding places from Russia.
Also 17 year olds, 70 year olds and pregnant woman in the front trenches.
https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 12 2023 22:13 utc | 164

I wonder if the Russian command has thought of an amphibious/airborne landing on Odessa? Very high risk, it would take massive buildup, very large numbers of missiles and drones, Intel up the wazoo, every landing/cargo/military ship Russia owns on the Black Sea and massive cajones. I would assume it would take 5-10000 soldiers and would likely to be coordinated with a push from Nikoliav (sp) which means they would have to also take that beforehand. (Maybe?)
Likely never happen, but it would shake things up in the SlowSMO. Personally, I think it would empty out any reserves Ukraine has left and if the beachhead could be supplied by sea, might be the final straw for the breaking of the Ukie army and take out the main Ukrainian port from the Black Sea. The wildcard is Poland, Romania and Bulgaria, maybe even Moldova. It would be interesting to game that out, and see the different results per various strategies. I certainly wouldn’t expect that from Russia if I were in Ukraine.
Yeah, I’m an armchair general, I take chances with my imaginary strategies and have no illusions of their worth. The surrounding terrain may be unfavorable for such a beachhead, or I could be way off on the material requirements.
It’s a slow Tuesday.

Posted by: Fudup | Dec 13 2023 0:04 utc | 166

It’s probably around 50k vs. 350k (KIA)
@unimperator | Dec 12 2023 22:13 utc | 164
Yes. where I live in the garden-jungle, msm reports almost daily on evening news very very exact numbers for RF dead, without sources. “It’s science”, remember? Numbers like 356128. Considering nato sill inverts everything, since they’re too retarded to create fiction, 350k is a realistic minimum. I’d say more probable +500k for Slava Cocaini.
I wonder if the Russian command has thought of an amphibious/airborne landing on Odessa?
Posted by: Fudup | Dec 13 2023 0:04 utc | 166
They’ve retreated again and again to keep ships out of missile range, so Odessa is not possible. You can’t even talk about Kherson or Zap. for the moment. The only thing they do is catapult some missiles on the border with nato, like in Izmail. Ok for the smo police action, completely useless for Crimea and Black Sea.

Posted by: rk | Dec 13 2023 14:10 utc | 168