Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 5, 2023
The War In Ukraine Is Done

The Washington Post has produced a long, two part piece, about the failed 'counter-offensive' in Ukraine. It dispenses equal blame on the U.S. and British planning of the whole mess and the Ukrainian execution of it.

The bullet points from the first part:

Miscalculations, divisions marked offensive planning by U.S., Ukraine (archived)

Key elements that shaped the counteroffensive and the initial outcome include:

  • Ukrainian, U.S. and British military officers held eight major tabletop war games to build a campaign plan. But Washington miscalculated the extent to which Ukraine’s forces could be transformed into a Western-style fighting force in a short period — especially without giving Kyiv air power integral to modern militaries.
  • U.S. and Ukrainian officials sharply disagreed at times over strategy, tactics and timing. The Pentagon wanted the assault to begin in mid-April to prevent Russia from continuing to strengthen its lines. The Ukrainians hesitated, insisting they weren’t ready without additional weapons and training.
  • U.S. military officials were confident that a mechanized frontal attack on Russian lines was feasible with the troops and weapons that Ukraine had. The simulations concluded that Kyiv’s forces, in the best case, could reach the Sea of Azov and cut off Russian troops in the south in 60 to 90 days.
  • The United States advocated a focused assault along that southern axis, but Ukraine’s leadership believed its forces had to attack at three distinct points along the 600-mile front, southward toward both Melitopol and Berdyansk on the Sea of Azov and east toward the embattled city of Bakhmut.
  • The U.S. intelligence community had a more downbeat view than the U.S. military, assessing that the offensive had only a 50-50 chance of success given the stout, multilayered defenses Russia had built up over the winter and spring.
  • Many in Ukraine and the West underestimated Russia’s ability to rebound from battlefield disasters and exploit its perennial strengths: manpower, mines and a willingness to sacrifice lives on a scale that few other countries can countenance.
  • As the expected launch of the offensive approached, Ukrainian military officials feared they would suffer catastrophic losses — while American officials believed the toll would ultimately be higher without a decisive assault.

And from the second part:

In Ukraine, a war of incremental gains as counteroffensive stalls (archived)

Key findings from reporting on the campaign include:

  • Seventy percent of troops in one of the brigades leading the counteroffensive, and equipped with the newest Western weapons, entered battle with no combat experience.
  • Ukraine’s setbacks on the battlefield led to rifts with the United States over how best to cut through deep Russian defenses.
  • The commander of U.S. forces in Europe couldn’t get in touch with Ukraine’s top commander for weeks in the early part of the campaign amid tension over the American’s second-guessing of battlefield decisions.
  • Each side blamed the other for mistakes or miscalculations. U.S. military officials concluded that Ukraine had fallen short in basic military tactics, including the use of ground reconnaissance to understand the density of minefields. Ukrainian officials said the Americans didn’t seem to comprehend how attack drones and other technology had transformed the battlefield.
  • In all, Ukraine has retaken only about 200 square miles of territory, at a cost of thousands of dead and wounded and billions in Western military aid in 2023 alone.

All those points played a role.

My personal ones:

  • Both, the Ukraine and its supporters, systematically underestimated Russian capabilities. (And still do.)
  • Satellite reconnaissance showed Russian defense preparations on the level of the Battle of Kursk. There the German Wehrmacht, after way too long preparations, failed to break the Russian lines. The unlearned lesson from 1943: When you see defense lines like these, try something else.
  • Battle simulations and table top war games have a 'moral factor' input for each side. Setting your sides' factor to 10 and the enemy's factor to 0, as the U.S. and UK obviously did, will let you win every time – but has no relation to reality.
  • Air support would not have helped. Russian air defenses are too strong to counter it.
  • The decision to use barely trained, 'green' brigades without any fighting experience was a serious error.
  • Not to use smoke grenades and, in general, means of deception, was not reasonable at all.
  • To have half of the new troops, the more experienced part, fight Zelenski's already lost battle for Bakhmut, was a major political mistake.

All together made sure that the so called 'counter-offensive' never had a chance to take off. The bickering now is just an attempt to put the blame for the failure onto the other side of the table.

The Ukrainian General Zaluzny has learned from the battle. He now puts up somewhat realistic numbers to let the U.S. understand how small its chances to win really are:

Commander-in-Chief Zaluzhnyi asked Pentagon chief for 17 million rounds of ammunition

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was informed during a visit to Kyiv that Ukraine needed 17 million rounds of ammunition and that US$ 350-400 billion worth of assets and personnel would be required to liberate the country.

Quote from a senior Defence Forces official: "Austin was told 17 million rounds of ammunition were needed. He was stunned, to put it mildly, because you wouldn’t be able to collect that many rounds in the whole world."

The Ukrainian army does not have the ten thousands of barrels required to fire 17 million rounds. Nor has it the men to feed those imaginary guns.

Zaluzny obviously thinks that the war is lost and done with. And that it is time for politics that pursue peace:

In addition, according to a source, Austin also said Zaluzhnyi had complained privately to American generals about interference from the President’s Office [..]: "Austin told us privately that Zaluzhnyi was always complaining to his generals about the President’s Office and how it obstructed him. Well, obviously the president learned about those conversations too. And that isn’t conducive to trust."

However, the President’s Office is inclined to believe that Zaluzhnyi’s dismissal would facilitate his political career.

It is high time for the Biden administration to wrap this whole thing up. Do the usual thing: declare victory, leave and forget-about-it.

Gilbert Doctorow muse about ways to do that:

Seymour Hersh, Anatol Lieven and the desperate DC gambit to end hostilities in Ukraine while claiming ‘victory’

Whatever happens thereafter will be left for the footnotes.

Comments

sean the leprechaun | Dec 5 2023 17:11 utc | 96
You are talking about the average person, of which there are many in Ukraine, but Ukraine is not a normal country as such. There is also extremism there and that is a different thing altogether. Plenty of nazi knuckle draggers that will never change with the little tikes being brought up to be just like their daddy. Will take awhile to squeeze them all out of the woodwork and kill them off, even aft the war or whatever it is ends.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 17:19 utc | 101

“…The only way for any sort of model predicting a UAF victory would be to fix the rules so that this result produced. As for the 60 to 90 days, that in itself is an admission of failure. It sort of assumes no or limited Russian reaction for months, along with no reserves.
Western narrative about this war has been characterised by wishful thinking and poor intelligence, combined with a prejudiced almost ubermensch attititude to the Ukraine over a stereotyped Russia. Even in 1940 when the Wehrmacht wargamed Barbarossa, they seemed to have a healthier respect for their opponent.
I am not surprised by the contents of this article. However it confirms my worst fears of the effectiveness of western intelligence agencies and militaries – and these are the people who brief our poltical decision makers.
Posted by: marcjf | Dec 5 2023 7:57 utc | 9”
US military planners have a long and storied history of wargames designed to ensure a predetermined outcome. The War On Iraq featured such gaming.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Dec 5 2023 17:20 utc | 102

Seer | Dec 5 2023 14:32 utc | 55:
“The US didn’t lose money or personnel(none visible to the populace, so “none”). It cleared out a bunch of old military hardware, grabbed a bunch of money and got commitments to pump out new hardware. In order to lock into this game it created a new Cold War. Europe was further subjugated and is now forced into more expenditures for US weapons and energy. No one in the US will be penalized (except the common person).”
I agree wholeheartedly. Even on sites like this, people confuse the utterances of the propaganda apparats of empire in govt and the media with reality when the whole point of the former is to obfuscate the latter. So there’s endless talk of “democracy vs autarky” and “rules-based order” and “responsibility to protect” ad nauseum and the “realists” advise something while the “neocons” advise another and everyone gets riled up and angry.
And at the end of the day, it’s really simple: war is the best racket going and the US is for $$$ for the connected few and for jobs and security for the 10% who serve the connected few, the MICIMATT. Everything else is nonsense and narrative building to justify war, preparation for war, and conducting war.
Maybe they can keep this particular racket going a little longer? Maybe not. They have several other irons on the fire, including the biggest one in east Asia. But this was a nice sweet con for a few years.

Posted by: Caliman | Dec 5 2023 17:21 utc | 103

Having not read all 96 comments, b, I agree on the sentiment, but dissent on the facts.
This war is not done until Russia says so. Zelensky is still begging for dollars in DC. Unless President Putin foolishly falls for Minsk 3, and allows a zombie NATO-fied Ukraine to rearm, the Russians must press on and finish the job of denazification.
Watching Gaza gives additional motivation to do the job right.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 5 2023 17:22 utc | 104

“Alexander Mercouris, or was it Judge Napolitano, said in his podcast several hours ago that the WaPost article looks like an effort by the CIA to blame the Pentagon for the failure. Just know that mainstream Ukraine ‘news’ from now on has a blame game theme.
Posted by: fairleft | Dec 5 2023 8:22 utc | 15”
Reminds me of the CIA trying to blame the Pentagon for losing the War On Laos. Laos was almost entirely a CIA war, FWIW.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Dec 5 2023 17:22 utc | 105

Ahenobarbus @ 81

Start preparing for class war. It’s the only solution at this stage of the crisis.

You get it, many here do, most I bet are old geezers, but the whole woke brain washing is exactly to stifle the class war that the elites know will be inevitable given their policies of permanent austerity and de-industrialization. So far it seems to be working, the only country you see resistance is the one with the most historically developed class consciousness, France. Maybe it’ll all pop at once, but that is usually just inchoate riots which the elites love and actually provoke, really you only get there by organization, historically hard and dangerous, work, and today we have the panopticon. History doesn’t really repeat, so, we’ll see.
As for the Russians not cutting themselves off from Europe, that’s exactly the USA plan, Putin said it clearly that Russia will not isolate itself ever again, Russian citizens will be able to travel, live, and do business where and as they like. This and security concerns are precisely what they are fighting for. There’s not much point striving for a multipolar world that has another iron curtain dividing it. Europe will have to be broken, militarily is a bad option, so economically, that’s the hybrid war and you can’t effect a hybrid war if you are economically isolated from your enemy.
Any armistice or peace the USA offers will be exactly to create this, the killing will stop but Russia will be isolated, a Korea like barrier btwn Russia and the EU. Besides security guarantees it’s primarily for this reason that I don’t think Russia will find anything to work with. The USA will bargain over territory, Russia will bargain over issues, a dead end.
As for statements, Russia has said from day one they are open to a peace agreement, so, really nothing new here. What are they supposed to say? Bloviating is not their style.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 17:24 utc | 106

“I think the war is about to move into the guerrilla warfare phase, so I wouldn’t celebrate too soon.
Yes, it’s not going to end well for NATOstan and their banderite muppets but they’ve never yet seen a stupid idea they didn’t like.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 5 2023 10:33 utc | 31”
The West will try guerilla warfare, but one thing that all successful insurgencies in recent decades have in common is a young population. The median age in Yemen is something like 19. The median age in Ukraine is over 40, and that before the war.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Dec 5 2023 17:25 utc | 107

“Air support would not have helped. Russian air defenses are too strong to counter it.”
Ukrainians have succesfully hit targets even in Sevastopol more than once using their limited air support. If they had dozens of F-16 that would greatly increase the amount of standoff weapons and decoys they could fire, so it’s not certain the Russians could easily counter it.
“Not to use smoke grenades and, in general, means of deception, was not reasonable at all.”
Speaking of smoke we don’t see much of it used by either side. I’ve seen Bradleys pop smoke, or Russian tanks generate smoke, but no real usage of smokescreens using artillery. Maybe drones have something to do with it

Posted by: abel | Dec 5 2023 17:27 utc | 108

Do you all recall when b wrote about “Zalushny’s third army” a year ago?
https://web.archive.org/web/20230509032622/https://www.economist.com/zaluzhny-transcript

I know that I can beat this enemy. But I need resources. I need 300 tanks, 600-700 IFVs, 500 Howitzers. Then, I think it is completely realistic to get to the lines of February 23rd.

According to globalfirepower.org, Ukraine hat 1950MBT at start of the war, other sources say, 2500. Yet a few months later, they requested, and got around 660 MBT, and even more AFV and howitzers. That was the second army. The third was burnt in “the offensive”. Now Za is getting big, asking for 17M shells and 300 billion dollar 😉 .

Posted by: aquadraht | Dec 5 2023 17:28 utc | 109

The other thing is, as other commenters have pointed out, Blackrock’s not going down without a fight. They’ll push hard for a ceasefire-frozen conflict, so that they can secure more resources west of the Dnipr and use them as collateral for bad debt.
If the Ukrainian debt-berg melts, the bagholders are hedge funds and the IMF. If Blackrock’s collateral gets seized by force majeure, they have to write it off and shareholders take it up the ass.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 5 2023 17:30 utc | 110

Sorry for the misfigured URL It was https://web.archive.org/web/20230509032622/https://www.economist.com/zaluzhny-transcript

Posted by: aquadraht | Dec 5 2023 17:31 utc | 111

“…But UK with its Canadian colony has a good supply of WWII Ukraine nazi’s to keep drip feeding into Russia for sometime. More still in Banderastan.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 15:02 utc | 60”
Ever met a Canadian Ukrainian loose in Ukraine, trying to speak with shopkeepers or taxi drivers using the Ukrainian phrases so dutifully memorized in Ukrainian School (they actually have such a thing)?
They stand out in Ukraine like a hooker at a Baptist tent revival meeting.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Dec 5 2023 17:33 utc | 112

Regarding the batshit crazy goals of western politicians based on fantasy. Why are we surprised? They are neoliberal capitalism adherents because they either don’t understand or they are ignorant of dialectical materialism and Marxist theory generally. Material reality is seen as optional by these people and as the ruling elite they don’t care how many working class people they kill.

Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Dec 5 2023 17:36 utc | 113

Russia’s forced, but now successful de-dollarisation, made me wonder what other countries could achieve it, with or without sanctions/bully from the West.
They need to be large enough that they can sustain a gaps in their internal economy through import substitution.
India comes to mind, as long as it can import key commodities through BRICS. India has no wish to de-dollarise right now, but if it maintains the BRICS relationship it is less stressed by western economic leverage / bullying.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Dec 5 2023 16:52 utc | 88

Now think about the moment when the Russian economy was first dollarized. It was way back in the 1960s when they started massively exporting commodities and importing finished goods. They had been exporting commodities pre-WWII too, but then it was done with the very specific purposes of supporting the industrialization drive, which was both a good thing on its own and a vital necessity given the coming war. The developments that unfolded in the 1960s, 70s and 80s were of a very different nature — they got addicted to living on easy money from oil exports, local production of things like machine tools and computers was suppressed (precisely the most vital sectors on which true sovereignty rests on), and in the process they also willingly joined the US wealth pump once the dollar went off the gold standard, i.e. the US gives you green IOUs that it prints in unlimited quantities, you send them real resources the other way, and with those green IOUs you buy some actually useful goods, but the net balance is deeply not in your favor. This is how the Cold War was lost by the USSR economically, and they did it themselves, even though they were in a perfect position to be self sufficient and just wait out the Western collapse — the West had gone broke and was running out of physical resources, and all that was needed was for the rest of the world to call their bluff and not go along with the dollar racket. But they all did, including the USSR.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Dec 5 2023 17:37 utc | 114

@abel | Dec 5 2023 17:27 utc | 108
What you write is bullshit. The Ukes scored a few hits with limited damage. And the F16 is as unfit for the Ukrainian theater as the Abrams M1 which obviously has not been seen on the battlefield due to engine failures. The car needs air filter change every 12 hours not to break, something hard to achieve under the Uke conditions.
The F16 is a similar snowflake. Unless the runway is swept clean it will take damage during takeoff sucking dirt into the turbines. Russian warplanes have an extra air intake for start thus can takeoff from grass or packed dirt. Your F16 will fall down like flies.

Posted by: aquadraht | Dec 5 2023 17:38 utc | 115

My uninformed two cents on the strife in Kiev, maybe what we are witnessing, and we are witnessing only the msm and social media tidbits offered to us so I’d be wary, is the Ukrainians with an historical and emotive tie to the land and country, patriots, those dying and sending men to die, Zaluzhnyi and those around him, nazi or otherwise, and the operators, spivs, and clowns placed in power by Washington, London, Brussels, and Israel. This dichotomy was manageable as long as optimism was high and the money was plentiful, not so much once it all goes to hell – as is expected if not routine, a story repeated a thousand times in history.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 17:39 utc | 116

You get it, many here do, most I bet are old geezers, but the whole woke brain washing is exactly to stifle the class war that the elites know will be inevitable given their policies of permanent austerity and de-industrialization.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 17:24 utc | 106

It was very specifically rolled out with that purpose. It was always there as a tool to be activated, though largely marginalized, but after the financial crisis hit and Occupy Wall Street spooked them a bit, they did give it a boost to break that particular threat up (which worked very well), and then it was as if a switch was flipped at some point in 2014. Quite suspiciously, right after Putin took back Crimea and it became clear we are headed for a major war.
I remember it very well how life was normal and then all of a sudden a flood of total insanity hit us. Then we learned that it traced its roots back to decades prior in exotic marginalized “academic” and activist circles, but it had been contained there for a long time; circa 2014-15 is when those demons were unleashed onto the wider society.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Dec 5 2023 17:39 utc | 117

Posted by: Sally | Dec 5 2023 17:17 utc | 99

IMHO they are not interested in “ending it”, they’re just interested in turning down the msm volume during 2024 (election year), using time to catch it’s breath while pulling other shenanigans, and picking it up again later, those driving this the hardest have no off-switches.

Posted by: knighthawk | Dec 5 2023 17:43 utc | 118

My off-the-cuff negotiating starting point for Putin:
1. Everything east of the Dnipr is now Russia. Kiev down to Kherson a DMZ.
2. Odessa, too. What’s left is landlocked, guaranteeing it can never be a regional military power.
3. All Ukrainian sovereign debt after 2014 Maidan declared “odious debt.” That means it’s legally null and void, as it was issued by an illegitimate regime installed by foreign agents, and with no chance of ever being repaid.
Kind of like a Hunter who knows he’s going to jail in 30 days and will have no income, but runs up the credit card for one last spending blowout with hookers-n-blow.
4. Rump Ukraine can never be in NATO.
5. All foreign mercs get no status. Best effort will be made to notify next-of-kin of the circumstances and place of their burial, if applicable.
6. POWs exchanged, if clean for war crimes. Azov battalion commanders must be processed and filtered for war crimes in Donbass, using tribunals of local citizens.
7. ICC drops all charges against Putin.
8. Formal reparations to Germany for NS2 destruction. Source of funds will depend on the West to decide – it could come from either what’s left of Ukrainian slush funds, or from directly from the US. In other words, someone has to pay, and the US and whatever new government takes over for Zelensky can litigate against each other to compare liability.
9. Zelensky resigns, new elections to be held.
10. Interim caretaker administration installed by Erdogan, Xi, or some BRICS country.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 5 2023 17:47 utc | 119

https://www.rt.com/russia/588284-darkening-prospects-ukraine-postwar/
RT take on the end game. Forgive if already linked, have not been following all comment threads today.

Posted by: Scorpion | Dec 5 2023 17:53 utc | 120

Ukrainians have succesfully hit targets even in Sevastopol more than once using their limited air support. If they had dozens of F-16 that would greatly increase the amount of standoff weapons and decoys they could fire, so it’s not certain the Russians could easily counter it.
Posted by: abel | Dec 5 2023 17:27 utc | 108

Until Ukrainian planes finally started dropping like flies about a month ago, the Russians had not deployed their air force and air defense seriously at all.
There were no MiG-31s in Crimea whatsoever, the R-37Ms had been used a fair bit, but without the MiG-31s and the A-50 AWACS planes, detection was an issue, and the ultra-long-range S-400s had been MIAs too.
Also, remember that Russian doctrine is designed around fighting NATO, not this weird not-war that is going on for two years now.
That means all airfields, missile bases, and logistic centers in Europe are glassed in the first 15 minutes of the conflict and then whatever was up in the air already is swiftly dealt with using those long-range systems I mentioned above.
But within the constraints of the current not-war, we hear about Starokonstantinov being bombed every day, and yet today Rybar reports that there was a new shipment of SCALP missiles there and we should expected renewed attacks.
Under real-war doctrine Starokonstantinov would have been a smoldering radioactive crater way back in June. But other than taking out the really big guns, there isn’t much you can do to really put an end to it — airfields are massive in size and standoff conventional munitions can hit the buildings around them, but they can’t take them out permanently.
P.S. Few people are making the comparison between Russians sitting back and inexplicably taking hits on one hand and what is happening with US bases in the Middle East on the other. All of a sudden the mighty scary US military is being attacked daily, and it just bombs some ammo depots in the middle of nowhere in response, but nothing really serious, even those bombings are sporadic, and as a result the attacks continue, i.e. it is also sitting back and inexplicably taking hits, and is not being able to protect itself very well at all. The main differences are that the propaganda machine ridicules the Russians for it while the other situation is largely not mentioned, and that every massive L Russia takes is immediately posted all over the internet, while hits on US bases are subject to a very successful information blackout.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Dec 5 2023 17:53 utc | 121

1. Everything east of the Dnipr is now Russia. Kiev down to Kherson a DMZ.

This sounds appealing, but there is a slight problem here — the cities of Kiev, Kremenchug, Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye all span the river, and their infrastructure was designed in a way that will make it very hard to run a border along the river.
If there is going to be any Ukraine left, the historically natural border runs along the Zhytomyr-Vinnytsia line

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Dec 5 2023 17:58 utc | 122

Julian | Dec 5 2023 15:30 utc | 66–
Yes, I dispute the Moscow Times entire slant on the issue as I published the translation in full yesterday, too, “We’re Together: Russia Volunteerism Awards & Credentialing Ceremony”. It helps to have observed several previous credentialing ceremonies to know Putin treats them all the same.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 5 2023 18:01 utc | 123

Re “Many in Ukraine and the West underestimated Russia’s ability to rebound from battlefield disasters and exploit its perennial strengths: manpower, mines and a willingness to sacrifice lives on a scale that few other countries can countenance.”
Huh.
It seems like the “underestimating” concerned the Ukraine’s manpower, not Russia’s.
This point seems like a sly lie. The premise is wrong.

Posted by: Jane | Dec 5 2023 18:04 utc | 124

Putin sheds crocodile tears over deteriorating ties with West
If the West’s Moscow Times can read Putin’s mind, so can I.

Posted by: ? | Dec 5 2023 18:08 utc | 125

It’s a lot of “stall talks” as usual by US/NATO. This is going well for Russia & China. No need to change anything. An EU Banker, was already screeching about how they need more US $$ as “We can not tolerate Ukraine default, and must do everything in our power to avoid an Ukraine default”… with US $$.
So, the laundry mat will continue, and Russia & China get closer year by year to financial collapse of the West as they print away.
I’ve head a lot of statements, even by Putin, about his “amenity” and “openness” for Peace Settlements… but PR ploy to the hilt, and after all his “NATO” shilling, absolutely no way b4 his election he’s gonna give West that PR win, with or without an actual military in Ukraine. He has his own election in March, and although “Peace Deal” would be topping, he’s going to win anyways. But if he capitulates and seen as doing so… well, won’t happen to the extent the West needs it too to save “Joe”.
Anyways, I , along with others here believe the final push and finishing off of Ukraine will be metered & scheduled for summer 2024.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 5 2023 18:13 utc | 126

However and whenever it ends I hope Washington will give us a copyrighted Vietnam and Afghanistan closing scene of Kiev flunkeys wrapped around the landing gear of helicopters and planes. Or maybe it would be trite? After the second the sequels always bomb.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 18:15 utc | 127

Jefer_SD @4
“What kind of moron would let an imbecile like Joe Biden lead them into war? ”
Answer: The same people that let Truman, LBJ, and Shrub lead them into Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq.
The same people who can always be convinced that though past wars were pointless and futile, the next one will be stupendous! IOW the eternally gullible American public with its total lack of historical memory.
The lack of awareness of historical outcomes extends to leaders like Zelensky who eagerly agree to have their countries be devasted in a US proxy war.

Posted by: JohnH | Dec 5 2023 18:29 utc | 128

People are very naive. These ‘we underestimated the Russians’ articles are the same type of blabber that ‘the russians are all drunk and incompetent’. It’s all meaningless drivel for public consumption.
I doubt that anyone really underestimated Russia. The cold calculation behind it was more likely that ‘we know the offensive will probably fail, but’
a) some Russians will die in the process
b) Russia will waste a lot of ammo, airframes or airframe service life, supplies and thousand other expensive things in the process
c) removal of our old junk will force the Europeans to buy new and generally invigorate the MIC
d) we will poison the relations between Ukraine and Russia for a long time
You can still have a plan B of net beneficial outcomes even if plan A is your most hoped for outcome.
Now that the post-offensive cost benefit analysis says many more inputs are required to achieve meager outputs (remote chance of victories, few dead russians), and further pressure on the Europeans will also likely introduce more turbulence than results (and the results are an already achieved and desirable near total obedience, so there is not much more to squeeze out there) they simply drew a line under the war and decided to cut their losses.
And then the reporters come out to blabber and write their cover stories.

Posted by: V99 | Dec 5 2023 18:31 utc | 129

There will be no guerrilla warfare.
Guerrilla warfare was what was the US had planned for the Russians. Remember the first weeks of the war – large quantities of Stinger anti-air and Javelin anti-tank missiles shipped to Ukraine, the kind that are fired from the shoulder. The idea was that when the Russian army entered Kiev, every Russian tank would be shot at using Javelins, every Russian helicopter would get shot at with Stingers. The guerrilla war never happened – the Russian army did not enter Kiev.
In hindsight, that was when the US lost the war.

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 5 2023 18:45 utc | 130

Sober analysts knew before February 2022 that NATO was no match for Russia, and that’s been well proven. The West believed their own fantasies and continues to engage in them even now. The end game for Ukraine will include a wider security agreement based on Russia’s 2021 proposals. At the just concluded OSCE meeting, Lavrov hinted at that. Russia, China and the Global Majority are going to force the acceptance of the Indivisibility of Security Concept onto the West in the process of making China’s Global Security Initiative come to life. Such acceptance won’t happen immediately as the Big Picture conflict still rages, although the winning side is easy to discern even now.
IMO, the discussion about Russophobia during yesterday’s “Meeting of the Council for the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights” provides some insight into how Russia will deal with that issue for it will continue long after the Ukraine SMO is concluded. IMO, the Cold War has yet to really end and as such Europe’s status as a colony is not yet settled. NATO’s loss in Ukraine is one of the first major steps to Europe’s decolonization, but much work remains to be done.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 5 2023 18:51 utc | 131

1. It’s an outstanding set of articles. Both in terms of analysis as well as several factoids that are new (e.g. communications breach).
2. I wish I could say the same about the headpost commentary by “b” or by most commenters here. But I can’t. They make the very common mistake of confusing Ukrainian failure on a breaching attack with predicting Russian success at transformative attacks of their own. However a much more reasonable interpretation is the general problem of attack versus defense, on this front, for both sides. The Avdiivka slow advance makes this clear and the story refers to failure of a Russian armored assault (similar as Ukrainian failure) and conversion to a slow infantry attack instead.
3. Here is an interesting video, from a generally pro Western source. But with some sound discussion. Supports the team stalemate hypothesis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aHbgb2nhds

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 5 2023 18:57 utc | 133

Bet there’s long lines at the various registry offices across Ukraine with parents trying to change their daughters’ names from Javelina.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 19:00 utc | 134

Seems most of those who rise in political power in the U.S. these days are basically live-in-the-moment types to get through the day, week, month and that’s about it. Short attention spans. They have legal training which is basically latch onto whatever argument you can make to take or distract the moment at hand. A future problem is a future problem they don’t have to deal with in the immediate. So they kick the can. I’m sure there are career state department people who see the longer, bigger picture but they toil at lower levels.

Posted by: WG | Dec 5 2023 19:06 utc | 135

by Poslan1 | Dec 5 2023 15:46 utc | 74
Should Putin command to stop the SMO today and just pull all the armies out, even this would not endanger his position as the national leader.

That is very true, you say.
However, that would make the military angry, with some harsh complaints and such but, still, not enough to even try to rebel.
My impression is that RF is steadily coming to collect the bill from the West.

Posted by: whirlX | Dec 5 2023 19:07 utc | 136

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 5 2023 18:45 utc | 130

“🇺🇸 There shouldn’t be no Russian who goes to sleep without wondering if they’re going to get their throat slit in the middle of the night – US General Mark Milley.
With this appeal, during a visit to Wiesbaden, Germany, Milley addressed the Ukrainian Armed Forces, who studied there with a unit of US special forces, in the hope of inspiring them to conduct operations in Russian-controlled territories. – FRWL reports
https://twitter.com/djuric_zlatko/status/1732031162573332814

“Partisan war” is nothing else than pure terrorism in neocon mind.
Anyway, doubt there is a significant chance of it succeeding anymore, because by now the Russian borders and north of Ukraine should be pretty well covered. The partisan war turned into artillery and drone slugfest which Ukraine is losing badly.
And it’s not like Russians don’t know how to do partisan warfare. Polish mercs in the Sumy and Kharkov region should probably know that.

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 5 2023 19:08 utc | 137

The press blather about the failed offensive just marks a new phase in the conflict, admitting that Ukraine will not be making any significant territorial gains at this point. What the Russian military strategy is, beyond squeezing Avdiivka and pushing slowly along the entire contact line east of the Dnipr R, we don’t know.
There has been no indication, so far, that the west is ready to seriously consider Russia’s core security demands. Pressure on Moldova, Georgia, and Armenia, etc, continues. There is also Kaliningrad, although it is not clear to me how far the west can go with that short of a defacto declaration of war.
The dying and destruction is not finished.

Posted by: the pessimist | Dec 5 2023 19:09 utc | 138

Improbable but not impossible:
Something to think about from @vysokygovorit
“I have a conspiracy theory. The disposal of the Ukrainian Mikitary’s marine forces in Krynky, as well as the overall grinding down of the most combat-ready units of the Ukrainian army in senseless attacks, is needed to prevent Kiev’s military from marching on Kiev firstly, and secondly, they are being cleared to allow Kiev’s partners to enter western Ukraine peacefully and without hindrance, annexing what they desire.”

https://t.me/iEarlGreyTV/8268

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 19:12 utc | 139

karlof1@131 is correct that the status of Europe is not settled. How things develop over this winter will be interesting. Russia’s physical proximity to Europe, and its shared history, are facts that the politics of the moment cannot change.

Posted by: the pessimist | Dec 5 2023 19:21 utc | 140

They stand out in Ukraine like a hooker at a Baptist tent revival meeting.
Posted by: Feral Finster | Dec 5 2023 17:33 utc | 112
🙂 No doubt you are correct on that. The way you put it though just really lightened up my morning. Thanks.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 19:35 utc | 141

“…They stand out in Ukraine like a hooker at a Baptist tent revival meeting.”
Feral Finster@112
You’ve met the Deputy prime Minister of Canada-Chrystia Freeland- then.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 5 2023 19:43 utc | 142

aristodemos | Dec 5 2023 17:18 utc | 100
Did you see this?
“Soros family makes deal with Kiev to use Ukrainian land as toxic waste dump — journalist
“This agreement authorizes the disposal of chemical waste from companies linked with financier George Soros in the black soil of Ukraine,” he said
PARIS, December 1. /TASS/. The Ukrainian authorities plan to allocate 400 square kilometers of fertile black soil for the disposal of hazardous chemical and radioactive waste under an agreement with George Soros’s son Alexander, French freelance journalist Jules Vincent reported, citing an official from the Ukrainian Environment Protection and Natural Resources Ministry…”
https://tass.com/world/1714983

Posted by: bevin | Dec 5 2023 19:48 utc | 143

It all bears the hallmarks of a Greek tragedy. They did what they did for there was nothing else for them to do.

Posted by: Clever Dog | Dec 5 2023 19:52 utc | 144

In about two weeks it will be winter solstice. Darkest day of the year for us in the northern hemisphere. Let’s all wish ourselves a brighter new year!

Posted by: Clever Dog | Dec 5 2023 19:56 utc | 145

133 keep on huffing that copium.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Dec 5 2023 20:01 utc | 146

Zelensky’s chances of seeing the 10th anniversary of the Maidan coup as president are not improving.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 20:01 utc | 147

This war is far from being over. Even without Ukraine, The West wont stop. They will continue attacking untill somebody in Russia us brave enough to press the red button.
The West is not afraid of Russia.

Posted by: zorge | Dec 5 2023 20:05 utc | 148

And now this:

20.45 CET
Zelenskiy unable to attend Senate briefing on Ukraine aid
Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy will not be able to attend a scheduled briefing of senators on the situation in the country, the Senate’s Democratic leader Chuck Schumer said.
“Zelenskiy, by the way, could not make it … something happened at the last minute,” Schumer said. The Ukrainian leader was scheduled to virtually address the classified briefing for all senators at 3pm.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/05/us-senate-zelenskiy-ukraine-funding-biden-republicans-politics-latest-updates

Posted by: too scents | Dec 5 2023 20:20 utc | 149

Arestovich just said Ukraine made the wrong bet on the side of Globalists vs. Realists.
He also pointed a reference on Germany’s president flying to Saudi Arabia with no one meeting him at the airport for 30 minutes, while Putin was received with a horse parade.
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1732102292508119437

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 5 2023 20:23 utc | 150

@ bevin | Dec 5 2023 19:48 utc | 143 about Soros buying Ukraine land to dump chemical waste on.
When profit and greed are your god then killing the host is not discussed and it just happens…..we are a sick species that we hope self corrects.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2023 20:23 utc | 151

by zorge | Dec 5 2023 20:05 utc | 148
The West is not afraid of Russia.

You are afraid of an unknown. The West has no clue and no understanding on how Russia really thinks, moves and retaliates on many levels and at different times.
Those who make the decisions in the West are too far from the front lines physically, and thousands of light-years away from it in their heads.
The West will always be afraid of Russia.

Posted by: whirlX | Dec 5 2023 20:37 utc | 152

Done? They are nowhere near done. They still have some fight in them, and they keep making significant terrorist attacks inside Russia (see the recent railway sabotage). And today they downed a Russian SU over the Black Sea with a patriot missile!

Posted by: bored | Dec 5 2023 20:39 utc | 153

The west is not afraid. They see Putin is unwilling to use nukes even if so many Russians are dying.
They know, thy can do what they like.
Thy know, the Russian power is restrained, limited.
So thy feel stronger.
Besides, they cannot accept any compromise as rhey consider themselves to be superior.
And thy want to plunder.

Posted by: zorge | Dec 5 2023 20:43 utc | 154

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 5 2023 18:57 utc | 133
That’s why caution is advised. I think the EU and the cooler heads at Langley probably recognize another 5 years of this current war isn’t going to be feasible from a fiscal standpoint but getting a cease fire, Minsk type Potemkin agreement and buying time for plan C (and punt project Ukraine until after the 2024 US election) seems more likely than an actual surrender anytime soon.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Dec 5 2023 20:44 utc | 155

psychohistorian | Dec 5 2023 20:23 utc | 151
When profit and greed are your god then killing the host is…
profitable.

Posted by: john | Dec 5 2023 20:45 utc | 156

Despite the efforts of military commissars to hunt for new soldiers on the streets the mobilization efforts in Ukraine have failed. The Ukrainian army is suffering from a shortage of personnel. The number mobilized no longer covers the losses at the front.
While the number of women in Ukrainian trenches has already decreased, Kiev sends children to the battlefield.
The head of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service already warned that London and Washington had ‘recommended’ Ukrainian authorities to reduce the conscription age to 17 and raise it to 70 year olds. Kiev is already changing legislation according to its orders from the West. Draft law on raising the military age up to 70 years has already been registered in the Ukrainian parliament. In May, the conscription age was lowered to 25; but this was not enough to continue fighting for the interests of the West. The new Minister of Defense of Ukraine proposed to further lower the military age. Educational institutions were obliged to transfer lists of students aged 16 and over.
Naive Ukrainians hope that teenagers will not be called to the front, but will be involved in safer work in the rear; but the hypocritical Kiev regime does not even spare children. As the NATO patrons ‘advised’, 17-year-old Ukrainian boys are already dying at the front. The first victims are orphans.
The combat reserve of minors is already being formed in Western Ukraine, where orphans are gathered for military training in the educational camp “Haidamatskaya Sich”. Underage conscripts are then sent to the 103rd Territorial Defense Brigade. This unit was formed in the Lviv region.
Initially, it was supposed to involve underage soldiers in the rear areas of the Kharkiv region, but the commander sent them to the front, where the “detachment of children” was used as an assault unit.
As a result, the losses were not long in coming. Vladimir Sachal, a 17-year-old orphan who died in the village of Novoselovskoye, in the LPR, became the first officially confirmed victim.
Meanwhile, the number of Ukrainian teenagers in Russian captivity is growing rapidly. One of the young prisoners said that he was taken to the front from the college. His father hid from mobilization in the forest, and his mother went to Poland for a better life. Without any descent training, he was sent into a meat grinder assault, where he was captured by the Russians, and thus, fortunately his life was saved.
Just as Germany created “Hitler Youth” detachments comprised of children in 1944, Ukraine is already sending the youth to slaughter. The Kiev regime is not concerned about the future of its people. It copes perfectly with the task from its foreign patrons to empty Ukrainian lands and transfer them to the needs of the “prosperous West”.

https://southfront.press/children-sent-to-war-in-ukraine/

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 5 2023 20:46 utc | 157

the pessimist | Dec 5 2023 19:21 utc | 140–
Thanks for your reply. I see we have some drunk people wanting to be analysts who need to have a taxi called for them so they can reach home without killing anyone or getting arrested.
During the same meeting I linked @131, Putin shows absolutely no signs whatsoever that he even contemplates some sort of peace short of victory. Russian people understand the stakes and are behind all aspects of the state, from A to Z.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 5 2023 20:58 utc | 158

Posted by: Julian | Dec 5 2023 15:30 utc | 66
###############
This will be a foreign idea to the secular crowd but Putin isn’t interested in global domination or mass murder. Just as most Muslims are not interested in the eradication of every Jew or conversion of every Christian.
A prosperous future for Russia is one where it is integrated with the West under better security conditions. That requires not burning every bridge or bombing every capital.
The childish and emotionally incontinent want blood now. They have little to no skin in the game, but they insist that Putin is doing everything wrong, as he continues to resurrect Russia into a global military, diplomatic, and economic power only 30 years after a total collapse.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 5 2023 21:03 utc | 159

madmarc 84: Easy to find, but noone talks about it, but also noone talks about a pipeline fromt Israel through Syria to Turkey Assad did not wont.
These “not talk abouts” are called free press. https://jamestown.org/program/sale-of-crimean-land-by-yanukovych-made-infor-china/

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Dec 5 2023 21:04 utc | 160

If they had dozens of …
Posted by: abel | Dec 5 2023 17:27 utc | 108
#################
The bottom line is that the Ukrainians are on the back foot, and have been for over a year now. There is no magical victory around the corner for them, even with a complete NATO mobilization. No Wunder Waffe that is going to radically turn the tide.
The war is playing out in slow motion as Russia wants it to. Decapitation strikes make it difficult to bleed an opponent out, as Russia has been doing, de-militarizing NATO over the last 20 months.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 5 2023 21:07 utc | 161

If they had dozens of …
Posted by: abel | Dec 5 2023 17:27 utc | 108
#################
The bottom line is that the Ukrainians are on the back foot, and have been for over a year now. There is no magical victory around the corner for them, even with a complete NATO mobilization. No Wunder Waffe that is going to radically turn the tide.
The war is playing out in slow motion as Russia wants it to. Decapitation strikes make it difficult to bleed an opponent out, as Russia has been doing, de-militarizing NATO over the last 20 months.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 5 2023 21:07 utc | 162

German Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck admits the grim reality in the recent prank of Vovan and Lexus.
https://twitter.com/simpatico771/status/1732086516514443774
Habeck admits the situation is shocking for Ukraine.

Posted by: rpst | Dec 5 2023 21:09 utc | 163

indian punchline has an article up touching on many of the points here, including the wapo article b linked to… thanks b!
Ukraine war is undergoing mutation

Posted by: james | Dec 5 2023 21:10 utc | 164

karlof1 | Dec 5 2023 20:58 utc | 158
Chess, checkers, and pigeons shitting on the board… and the art of war. Checkers players and pigeons just don’t cut it when it comes to Putin and the leadership of the Russian federation.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 21:11 utc | 165

>> The U.S. intelligence community had a more downbeat view than the U.S. military, assessing that the offensive had only a 50-50 chance of success given the stout, multilayered defenses Russia had built up over the winter and spring.
They call this a downbeat view??? The minute I heard Sylvain Ferreira describe the 3-layered defense from the Zaparozhie area to the Azov sea, it became obvious that an offensive in that direction had strictly zero chance of success.
I can’t believe in so much incompetence. Killing Ukrainians (i.e. Russians, as far as these orks are concerned) must be part of their plan.

Posted by: Jean-Marie L. | Dec 5 2023 21:14 utc | 166

Redacted has some video/headline up that Zelensky is moving to the US and given US citizenship according to some whistleblower.
The end is near.

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 5 2023 21:19 utc | 167

by karlof1 | Dec 5 2023 18:51 utc | 131
Yes, thanks for the thought there.
I can just add that RF was not interested in a NATO’s good will move to reduce troops in Europe, especially on the Eastern border. The idea that is important is AEGIS in Poland and Romania, as that is the step towards NATO on 1991 borders with some extras there negotiated. To me, it is a mystery how nobody from the West sees that the only guarantor of peace in Eastern Europe is Russia and nobody else. The West built its entire politics and ‘strategy’ in a completely different direction ignoring it.
It will be a fun to watch them trying to untangle, basically the whole society, out of the lullaby land they created. Lies are dangerous boomerang weapon.

Posted by: whirlX | Dec 5 2023 21:23 utc | 168

“Cases in point: The Corn-Belt within the Ruptured Republic, most particularly in Iowa, Illinois, portions of Missouri, Nebraska, the Dakotas and southern Minnesota; have, with few exceptions, become biological deserts, where birds of most species, earthworms and micro-biotic organisms are becoming increasingly rare. One example which is near to my area of residence is the once fabulous Red River Valley of the North, along the N.D. and Mn. borderlands, has become essentially biologically inert. In that region, it is only extreme levels of chemical fertilizers in expanding quantities, along with herbicides, pesticides and every other agency besides…which keeps production going.”
Aristodemus – where do you live?

Posted by: Feral Finster | Dec 5 2023 21:29 utc | 169

unimperator | Dec 5 2023 21:19 utc | 167
Could be. I like redacted, but as with many, some things needed to be taken with a grain of salt.
As for the “The end is near” we are certainly seeing the end of this phase in Ukraine. Just a matter of waiting to see what is the next phase the lead from behind poo jabbers will come up with. No doubt some new Wiley E Coyote ACME box of tricks.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 21:31 utc | 170

Posted by: too scents | Dec 5 2023 20:20 utc | 149
i hope he is in the middle of a coup, that would be poetic justice. maybe the Zaluzhnyi branch would be more reasonable. they could start by handing Z over to the Russians for prosecution for war crimes, since the bought out UN won’t do it.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 5 2023 21:33 utc | 171

I am convinced that the war in Ukraine will end with the complete destruction of the fascist regime. Any other result will mean the end of the Putin presidency. No negotiations, just sign th terms of surrender, lay down your arms and let our boys take up positions on the western border. Any wheeling dealing with a future Trump presidency will come after that. Of course there is another aspect to this: Trump himself could dynamite NATO.

Posted by: Stierlitz | Dec 5 2023 21:35 utc | 172

No NATO for Ukraine

Washington Abandons NATO Promises To Ukraine — MP
The US government has directed its European allies to stop making promises of NATO membership to Ukraine, Rada Deputy Alexey Goncharenko wrote on Telegram, citing personal sources in Washington.
According to the Ukrainian legislator, the word came directly from State Secretary Anthony Blinken.
Goncharenko added that in Kiev, Vladimir Zelensky’s administration has already “come to terms” with this news.

https://t.me/rtnews/52529

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 21:37 utc | 173

Posted by: JohnH | Dec 5 2023 18:29 utc | 128
you forgot JFK, Ike, and Nixon.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 5 2023 21:38 utc | 174

No the War in Ukraine is not Done. It sounds cool to say it is, like you know stuff. But its far far from done. People who say the Russian Ukraine War is done remind me of the predictions of the last few years in the financial sector who expect Economic Collapse, chaos, very soon. Gold to 5 figures or higher any time now. This week they will be banging that Gold drum again.
There is no road map for whats going on in the world. We havnt been here before, forget Kursk. The best description is that we have been in WW3 for decades. Say there was a choice for how the built up karma had to be spent: God said either A third world war spread over many decades with natural disasters like drought, firestorms, floods earthquakes, volcanoes plus man made disasters like famine, the consequences of economic warfare, plague (covid) or one big conflict. People chose option one after it was explained mankind would barely survive option 2.
You will likely glance at this and move on. Some of you with more developed consciousness will get a hint of the truth, then move on. A rare one will see the truth.
We are become Godless and greedy. The final hour is approaching. It is written.

Posted by: JakJones | Dec 5 2023 21:42 utc | 175

Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 21:37 utc | 173
Thanks for that. It has been beginning to show in US utterances, in US again starting to invite Russian reps to various meetings. When it comes to push and shove, nothing creates more respect than balls and strength. The ladyboys of Europe just don’t cut it, apart from a small few like Orban.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 21:48 utc | 176

@JakJones | Dec 5 2023 21:42 utc | 175
Begins with

No the War in Ukraine is not Done.

Ends with

The final hour is approaching. It is written.

I see good progress in your post.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 21:48 utc | 177

unimperator @ 167

Redacted has some video/headline up that Zelensky is moving to the US and given US citizenship according to some whistleblower.

How many citizenships is that now? UKR, Israel, UK, USA? Oh, yeh, left out Hell – citizen of Hell.
I’m not so sure removing Zelensky will be so easy, he has no agency but he’s part of a vast intricate grift network not just in Kiev but across Ukrainian cities and politicians and in the AFU, all built on patronage and corruption. Removing Zelenzky might be like pulling on a loose yarn on a sweater, pull to much and the whole thing unwinds.
If they’re smart they’ll put that ambitious spiv mayor of Kiev in there, it’ll appear democratic and it’ll look like a clean reboot. If they are dumb they’ll promote some henchman from the last administration. Any bets?

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 21:57 utc | 178

If Ukraine does show to the world that it’s near a collapse, with chaos in Kiev, then the top brass of the AFU might have a use it or lose it situation. Either order an immediate orderly withdrawal, or risk mass surrenders of whole platoons, companies, and even battalions on the line of contact with the Russian military. And that could spread like wildfire, as even resolute Ukrainian Majors, Colonels, and Generals would see Russia quickly capitalizing on that, and moving too quickly for them to defend against.
For a loyal Ukrainian nationalist who’s at a top spot in the military, the best move would be to save the army so as to be able to negotiate with Russia. Without Ukraine having their army in a usable form, Russia would demand they conceded to what amounted to being an unconditional surrender.
Too early to easily imagine a sudden collapse happening this week, or this month. But that end result is rapidly becoming the most likely outcome if Ukraine doesn’t start engaging in a orderly “advance to the rear”.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Dec 5 2023 21:59 utc | 179

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 21:57 utc | 178
I don’t know what to think of Klitscko, he is onboard with the war, i don’t know what his relationship with the neonazis is for example. I know that Nuland didn’t want him leading Ukraine so that is a point in his favor. He’s more realistic than Zelensky, but he thinks it is a stalemate, which also isn’t true.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 5 2023 22:01 utc | 180

@Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 21:48 utc | 176

The ladyboys of Europe just don’t cut it, apart from a small few like Orban.

I was always called a pessimist, but this is far worse than I had ever imagined. So I must have been an optimist after all.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 22:02 utc | 181

@Babel-17 | Dec 5 2023 21:59 utc | 179

Too early to easily imagine a sudden collapse happening this week, or this month. But that end result is rapidly becoming the most likely outcome if Ukraine doesn’t start engaging in a orderly “advance to the rear”.

The coming collapse is “any time” in my opinion. I don’t believe there is a way out for this regime. Zelensky may possibly perform an Ashraf Ghani move.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 22:07 utc | 182

Zelensky was supposed to be conferring online with US senators today, presumably about continued support. He cancelled at short notice – any ideas why?

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Dec 5 2023 22:13 utc | 183

So I must have been an optimist after all.
Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 5 2023 22:02 utc | 181
My thoughts exactly. If what happens is better than you thought, you are a pessimist. If what happens is worse than you thought, you are an optimist.

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 5 2023 22:15 utc | 184

From the ukranian newspaper today:
CAVOLI WAS UNABLE TO REACH ZALUZHNYI DURING THE CRITICAL PHASE OF THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE. HE WANTED TO PERSUADE UKRAINE CHANGE TACTICS — WP
05 December, 2023, 15:59
Share
“U.S. officials saw the 50-50 distribution of Ukrainian forces during the summer counteroffensive as the wrong mix and wanted more troops to be moved south. This is stated in the article The Washington Post. Moreover, the United States understood that the Russians would try to destroy the vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine for demining, warning that there were methods of camouflaging them, including the use of smoke.
But assessing Kyiv’s approach and calling for change was a delicate task, the media reported. One of the officers who did this was General Christopher Cavoli. As head of the U.S. European Command, he led most of the Pentagon’s efforts to train and equip the Ukrainian army.
However, Cavoli was unable to contact the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Valerii Zaluzhnyi, during the entire critical phase of the counteroffensive, WP writes, citing US sources familiar with the situation. The officer himself refused to comment on this issue.”
It’s getting hotter!!!
https://zn.ua/ukr/UKRAINE/kavovi-ne-mih-dodzvonitisja-z-zaluzhnim-pid-chas-usijeji-kritichnoji-fazi-kontrnastupu-vin-khotiv-zaklikati-ukrajinu-do-zmini-taktiki-wp.html

Posted by: Paul from Norway | Dec 5 2023 22:18 utc | 185

SF breaking news: Black sea, SU-24 shotdown by patriot missile
Going to be interesting to see what will be utterly destroyed in Odessa vicinity over the next several days…

Posted by: nathan in WA US | Dec 5 2023 22:18 utc | 186

nathan in WA US | Dec 5 2023 22:18 utc | 186
Who’s SU-24?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 22:22 utc | 187

Posted by: whirlX | Dec 5 2023 20:37 utc | 152
The sad part is, russia tells exactly what it thinks, does, and wants.
But we in the west refuse to listen. Or rather as the german saying goes, it goes into one ear, and exits the other one.
The only thing that russia does not tell is a timeframe, as mother russia moves at her own pace. Maybe thats the issue with the western world, as it had become a culture of instant gratification, just in time, and everything now. If its not instant, then it does not compute.

Posted by: Justpassinby | Dec 5 2023 22:22 utc | 188

if i were a coup plotter in Ukraine, i would look into the possibility of sabotaging Zelensky’s coke supply.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 5 2023 22:24 utc | 189

What we’re seeing, is US attempting to dial down the intensity in case there would be action vs Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, and Syria — maybe all at once, lol — all due to Israel. If that doesn’t happen, they’ll resume burning thru Ukrainian population. There are still people left, and wasting taxpayer money (if necessary buying used from third world junkyards) was never an actual limitation.
The events in Kiev are not encouraging either. Zaluzhny is one of the Banderites, whereas Zelensky was just a moron.
Hopefully RF makes good use of the opportunities this winter.

Posted by: pxx | Dec 5 2023 22:25 utc | 190

Alastair Crooke has a good article about “the Europe problem”.
On the other hand – Alastair Crooke is ex MI6. Larry Johnson is ex CIA. B is ex German army. Scott Ritter is ex US Marine intelligence.
Somehow there is a real possibility one of these is not “ex” but still employed.

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 5 2023 22:32 utc | 191

Posted by: pxx | Dec 5 2023 22:25 utc | 190
don’t forget the brewing proxy wars the US is cooking up against China, and the need to keep the Pakistan generals in control vs Imran Khan in Pakistan, and the attempts to prop up pro US tools in Africa as China and BRICS make inroads there. the us is very very busy making things worse all over the world. i dont see how it keeps this juggling act going.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 5 2023 22:32 utc | 192

pretzelattack @ 180

I know that Nuland didn’t want him leading Ukraine so that is a point in his favor. He’s more realistic than Zelensky, but he thinks it is a stalemate, which also isn’t true.

Nuland didn’t want him because as a real politician he might actually demonstrate agency even go rogue, they no longer allow real politicians in the USA or EU imagine if they do in their colony of Ukrainistan, but as things have turned to shit Nuland might have to compromise.
The president’s job is powerless anway, the Ukrainian state is bankrupt, all political power even in a decently functioning state is patronage and in Ukraine what money comes in is all from the USA and EU. Ukraine started out as a dog on leash, now it’s a patient on life support and the USA has its hand on the plug. Klitscko would be a naive idiot to take it, but who knows what his price is and what’s on offer – millions, billions, a castle in Spain and a 100m yacht? Not to mention four citizenships, five if you include Hell.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 22:33 utc | 193

Many in Ukraine and the West underestimated Russia’s ability to rebound from battlefield disasters and exploit its perennial strengths: manpower, mines and a willingness to sacrifice lives on a scale that few other countries can countenance.

Lolz, projection on the scale 9000.
They still don’t get it. All the stereotypes about USSR/Russia is what West became.

Posted by: Abe | Dec 5 2023 22:36 utc | 194

pretzelattack @ 192

i dont see how it keeps this juggling act going.

Through the dauntless energy of madness, don’t underestimate it. Stars are at their brightest before they explode.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 5 2023 22:38 utc | 195

Well if Washington is looking for an exit ramp somewhere in these wish-fulfilment sessions, they won’t find it. Even if they think these are just preliminary bargaining positions – nope. Concessions won’t get them anything less than the dismantling of NATO. Maybe think about that as just North American Treaty Organisation in future.
As for the behind-the-scenes negotiations between generals Zaluzhny and Gerasimov – I don’t find these so implausible, even without Washington approval for Val Z. I disagree with Gilbert Doctorow there. As I understand, Val G’s big idea is ‘hybrid war’ – where you constantly trade off military advantage for civil or political reward – tactics for strategy maybe. And Val Z is a student of Val G from past Soviet days, so the talk would be on a peer level, just quietly, man to man. Val G is not going to offer anything Putin wouldn’t and Val Z is only looking for something more solid than Blinken piffle. Basically they would be exploring what surrender looks like for Kiev. I doubt Val Z would be passing on any of that to Kiev, at this point he has to look beyond that.
As for the value of battle simulations, I think this one is just an embarrassment. They can try blaming Ukrainian troops for not being American- or trained to American standards – but that’s just digging a deeper hole for themselves. The fact is they just have NO experience in conducting this kind of battle, on this kind of scale in this kind of terrain AT ALL! And that goes for the designers of all the war games they might care to rehearse with. The proof is in the pudding. And they were just leading themselves on to la-la land. I think Zaluzhny saw that from the outset and probably muttered under his breath something akin to “Don’t try and teach your granny how to suck eggs!” Say what you like, but these guys are ALL basically Russians and this is their backyard. They know what it takes. The sheer audacity of trying to tell them how they can win based largely upon a brief technological superiority courtesy of Starlink. If nothing else, they now know the Russians are fast learners.

Posted by: Gerry Bell | Dec 5 2023 22:39 utc | 196

Posted by: Abe | Dec 5 2023 22:36 utc | 194
yeah that bolded text is pure propaganda, the Washington Post is still the Washington Post even if it allows some truth to seep in as it attempts to adjust to reality.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 5 2023 22:40 utc | 197

by Paul from Norway | Dec 5 2023 22:18 utc | 185
Cavoli was unable ..that is a fact. He is not able to understand anything. To transfer what, where and why?
The Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Valerii Zaluzhnyi..is probably under-undercover Russian asset.
I await AFU gegen NATO real soon.

Posted by: whirlX | Dec 5 2023 22:43 utc | 198

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 5 2023 22:22 utc | 187
Patriot shot it down…Odessa is about to be hit big time…take a guess.

Posted by: nathan in WA US | Dec 5 2023 22:43 utc | 199

Posted by: Paul from Norway | Dec 5 2023 22:18 utc | 185
The finger pointing continues. 😉 /grabs popcorn

Posted by: knighthawk | Dec 5 2023 22:48 utc | 200