Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 31, 2023
The MoA Week In Review – OT 2023-323

Last week's post on Moon of Alabama:

Palestine:

Ukraine:

This WSJ journo is staying at interesting places –>

Yaroslav Trofimov @yarotrof – 18:09 UTC · Dec 30, 2023

By now, seven hotels where I stayed and four restaurants where I had eaten in Ukraine have been struck by Russian missiles. Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kramatorsk, Druzhkivka, Pokrovsk …


Other issues:

RIP:

2023:

Empire:

Europe:

Russia:

China:

> At the same time, as spending on China at the C.I.A. has doubled since the start of the Biden administration, the United States has sharply stepped up its spying on Chinese companies and their technological advances.

Though the U.S. intelligence community has long collected economic intelligence, gathering detailed information on commercial technological advances outside of defense companies was once the kind of espionage the United States avoided.

But information about China’s development of emerging technologies is now considered as important as divining its conventional military might or the machinations of its leaders. <

Use as open (not related to Ukraine and Palestine) thread …

Comments

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 2 2024 5:26 utc | 91
“In an ideal (if perhaps unrealistic) international trading network, everyone starts out as an equal in exporting whatever they have, that is surplus to their own needs, and imports whatever they need that they cannot produce themselves or cannot produce enough of themselves. This extends not only to physical commodities but also commodities that have symbolic value, such as cultural products (music, literature, films, art). No-one would be allowed to be a freeloader.”
Not really … To much emphasises on exports again.
We have, (Scotland ) has destroyed its fishing because of exporting whatever they have, that is surplus to their own needs. It is a stupid policy.
India’s example is simple why have so many people making textiles in the first place ? It was a waste of both skills and real resources period.
Education, education, education, build, build, build. Full sovereignty isn’t a birth right, you have to work hard to achieve it.
Skill up, train the population to build what you need to become fully sovereign. One step at a time with a domestic first focus.
Remember, if you don’t have anything to export to get the imports. Once you’ve have your currency set up, you can just buy them.
Here
https://new-wayland.com/blog/anatomy-of-an-fx-transaction/
International competition stops nations getting ALL their imports for no exports. But you can simply buy some of them using your own currency as foreign business wants to increase their market share.
EXACTLY what Fadhel Kaboub recommends in Neocolonialism and the Unholy Trinity above. Regarding the global South.
Domestic first and foremost. Imports second with ‘structural autarky’, ie diversity of supply across trading blocs focussed on discretionary items with supply sufficient to withstand a failure of one supplier. Exports very much at the back of the queue.
Japan is finishing this process and China is just starting it.
Economics is easy once you understand money is never the issue. However, the money scarcity guys wants you to think money is always the problem.
Skills and real resources are your constraints. What are you going to do with them. What are you doing with them now that they otherwise could be doing. Where are you going to get them from.
Neoliberalism and Neoconservatives are all about government is just another organisation in the system that has to compete for resources by price. Business and banks and exporters always get first choice of resources and government has to make do with the scraps.
They believe the bankers and businesses should be in charge and that the population are just factors of production to be shifted around, like ingots of steel, as business requires.
There’s another way …
Government can command any resources available for sale in its currency and can use its sovereign power to force those resources to be freed up so it can purchase them for the public good.
You can determine that business and banks are servants of the people. Government can take first choice of resources for the public purpose, then allow business and banks to work with what is left, before local communities Hoover up any left over resources with a Job Guarantee.
The public wrap of the private system provides a containment vessel around the nuclear power of capitalism. We can draw its power without the boom. We can fuel it with public investment and improve the power output.
The focus of government action shifts from money to the actual things we need to buy for the public purpose. Smart people talk about government buying, not spending.
From this, government sets the policy for spending and taxation at a level that allows the Job Guarantee and other auto-stabilisation mechanisms (such as standby investment contracts) to function.
Planning public works – history has a lot to say if we listen properly
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=37930
Public infrastructure investment must privilege public well-being over profit
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=40186

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jan 2 2024 9:12 utc | 101

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 2 2024 5:26 utc | 91
International competition stops nations getting ALL their imports for no exports. But you can simply buy some of them using your own currency as foreign business wants to increase their market share.
Take a look at all the major exporting countries. They do exactly that.
Countries just buy goods and services from Russia, China etc, etc without Russia and China getting anything real in return.
Where’s the evidence of that ?
All the US treasuries held at the FED by China and all the Eurobonds held at the ECB by Russia that have been frozen.
Both Russia and China sent goods and services abroad without getting any imports in return for ALL of their exports. They decided to throw foreign coins in the back of the drawer instead for their exports.
Why ?
Not only, so that Chinese businesses and Russian businesses can increase their market share.
When you export your way to growth DEMAND matters. When world demand is low because countries have austerity imposed on them via spending and debt rules and live under money scarcity policies. Russia and China will send them as there is nowhere else to go.
Russia is now throwing rupees at the back of the drawer. Has that many Rupees it doesn’t know what to do with them. Russia is not getting anything real in return for ALL their exports to India. Allowing India to buy some Russian exports without giving any real resources in return.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jan 2 2024 9:31 utc | 102

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 2 2024 5:26 utc | 91
Let’s say you have a block of 20 African countries in the same trap, facing the same issues. If we have an acknowledgement that those 20 countries as a block have 300 million consumers, let’s say, and have all the natural resources that they need for renewable energy technology, raw materials, but also have a huge energy deficit, a huge food deficit.
Russia and China could simply allow these countries to buy the imports They need using their own currencies.
Russia and China could take a few exports in return but then just throw the different African currency into the back of the drawer after that.
Why Lula in Brazil is talking about a trading bloc in South America like Fadhel Kaboub is talking about a trading bloc in Africa.
Lula is talking about a South American currency which is a terrible idea as it will end up like the Eurozone. With no fiscal union.
This is what BRICS are trying to figure out.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jan 2 2024 10:07 utc | 103

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 2 2024 5:26 utc | 91
Russia and China could then “use” the African foreign coins they have thrown into the back of their drawers that they received for their exports.
To help build infrastructure in these countries, like high speed rail and ports and decent roads. (Without owning them, from which to extract rent) and allowing the African countries to own them outright.
But the African countries need to Skill up and have the people ready to build them and look after them. Slowly step by step. It will be a long process. Starts with education.
What Russia and China would be doing by doing that , would be helping these African nations to reach as much full sovereignty potential as they can. Instead of being trapped by the West with very little sovereignty.
As the African countries within the bloc sovereignty grows over time, both Russia and China knows even more goods and services will be exchanged when trading in the future.
So Russia and China will get more “real” stuff in return as Africa develops. Rather than just throwing foreign coins to the back of the drawer for their exports.
What hopefully BRICS is trying to achieve over the next 100 years.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jan 2 2024 10:27 utc | 104

“UKRAINE: WHO LOST THE WAR IN UKRAINE”
“The coming battle: Who lost Ukraine ?”
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-coming-battle-who-lost-ukraine/
“Ukraine 2023: Who lost the battle, and who will win the great war?”
https://www.ifimes.org/en/researches/ukraine-2023-who-lost-the-battle-and-who-will-win-the-great-war/5261

Posted by: Mr. Market | Jan 2 2024 13:47 utc | 105

@ Echo Chamber.
Perhaps Professor Echo Chamber !
Ok, this is the place where you have laid your massive Xmas gift , at least it isn’t derailing a thread, it seems that many have suddenly woken from their festive purdah to suddenly play pass the parcel and get the present – which as always is disappointingly small compared to the size it f the original case!
Money. What is iit? When & Where it came from. WHO invented it. How it is used.
Carry on the good work , watch out for blind alleys and fellow travellers who aim to mug you by taking you down these.
As all know it is the subject I too have been pushing that we all need to learn and understand.
Only then does the history of humanity over the last Millenia or two make sense. The Year Zero that was implemented to compel us to FORGET history and civilisations. Prior to that. So yes I find and collect facts that are still available dotted through history to ascertain what exactly the Truth , Hidden actually is.
Religion , Economics, pseudo science …history! All such fantasies that have clouded our Collective minds – your Groupthink. Many sacred cows in there that many supposed humanists will still believe are Fact and Science – when all they believe has been dogma and religion dressed up to be Critical thinking and actual hard science.
Woe will be upon them when they eventually realise , if they do, or they’ll merrily shuffle off this mortal coil happy in their happy religion. Who cares.
Ok – let’s cut to the chase – please turn your analysis and build into the model the following which I don’t think has been addressed in your posts so far, pardon me if you have, in which case just restate for me.
1. Transnational entities.
These that OWN on both sides of the import/export exploitation?
Put it simplistically if the King of one ‘nation’ owns everything in that nation – including the people and their wealth creation by their labour.
That nation trades with a different nation, set up in exactly the same way, just over the water say.
Then there will be trade and payment in mutually acceptable ‘currency’.
With me so far?
So what happens when both Kings are the same family, or what if both kings are ‘owned’ by some greater entity – a living god for sake of argument. The people themselves believe themself to be different peoples each in their own nations – not knowing that the ultimate beneficiary isn’t their Monarch but some secret master that their king is just an accountant for.
Discuss.
2. For these who hold the fictional relationship between Capital/Anti Capital as religions. Even as it is shown to them that they have been duped forever about the Truth of Money – it isn ‘made’ by the ‘individual genius’ or entrepreneur or capitalist – they just EARN it – not ‘MAKE’ it.
Perception on this has changed through history in a desperate attempt to hide the truths. The last century saw the latest iteration in that came under the guise of the hireling ‘AYN RAND’ , Monetarism , individualism all that crap that keeps daily stinking our world. Like the Aegean Stable!
The world war that we are heading towards the denouement of all of this century, non-stop war, is the culmination of the 2,000 year, Eurocentric History and attempt to forever take control of the World by destroying and exterminating ancient history of humanity and civilisation that was in continuous evolution. Against the forces of nature which regularly seek to destroy our precarious existences.
The destruction of ancient monuments such as Palmyra and the Buddha statues and other such historical records part and parcel to that ‘re-writing of history’.
The fact is the transnational hidden forces have shapeshifted through Millenia hiding within and behind religions, churches, monarchies and now transnational entities that they even have given themselves rights equivalent of any human! Legal rights! And the power and ability to Own it All!
It seems they ran into some resistance that they haven’t been able to infiltrate and shapeshift into as they were able to through Europe. Using Europeans to conquer and set up empires and co-opt the colonised into further self denevtation and poverty of their peoples for the benefit of the few who had planned their moves generations ahead.
That is Russia and China and Iran and Syria and a few others. Who have not only survived the use of such economic weapons but have resisted murderous proxy wars to endure.
The Ancients are saving humanity and civilisation and freeing us greatly m our bondage to the fake religions ! We must remove our blinkers and embrace their liberating win over the transnationals. We must not buy into any more fake religions of desperation – the dystopic claims, the ‘falling skies’, the crying of ‘wolf’ in all its latest drilling sheepskin disguise that has led us into a Collective Waste.
Discuss?

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jan 2 2024 14:25 utc | 106

Could Bevin explain the connection he makes between Sade and enlightment?
i think desmet foresaw what is going on quite well

Posted by: Minaa | Jan 2 2024 14:48 utc | 107

A strange morass envelops America today. The culture has lost its luster, its weight to move the world—the lures once used to trap us in a common myth of salvation lie withered as false idols. The dimming fire has squandered any sense of ‘magic’ in the guttering West, replacing it with the remnants of some incomprehensible unease—an existential acedia. Cultural touchstones crumble around us like rotting edifices one after another, ivory towers redeeming years of spiritual neglect. Brands like Disney, once representing inviolably deep strands of the American psyche, have been transfigured into engines of perversion—or more aptly conversion—hemorrhaging billions in losses: blood fountaining from the mouth of a gargoyle. America now resembles a high-security prison, each state its own separate cell-block, the restive residents of which chafe and fret with suspicion—or outright hostility—at one another. The sun has set on the bon vivants of yesteryear, and the pony show has gone to seed.
https://darkfutura.substack.com/p/bones-of-tomorrow?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2

Posted by: ld | Jan 2 2024 14:58 utc | 108

Heavy news days since the SMO started and now Palestine boiling
but don’t give up the fight, you’re on the right side of things.
Posted by: waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 5:58 utc | 93
—————–
Roger !
Lets work together to make this last bastion of dissent strong !
Heavy news indeed !
There’s speculation that 7-10 was an Israel ploy , 911 style, to justify an carte blanche taking out Hamas
BUt the way everybody is fixated on Gaza makes me wonder if its aN USAss FF , TO divert world attention from UKraine and
escalating provocations at Korean Peninsula, TW, SCS ?

Posted by: denk | Jan 2 2024 15:01 utc | 109

Heavy news, this loss of John Pilger.
We all knew it was coming, but god bless this mess: we would all be well rescued by better people who know at least as much as he did.
All Truth Seekers lost a strong ally, today. John Pilger was one of the Greats.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jan 2 2024 15:20 utc | 110

Transferring the slightly OT discussion about Desmet etc. from the Palestine thread:

Posted by: suzan | Jan 2 2024 0:57 utc | 195
This is crucial to understand: propaganda is not a historical coincidence, it is a structural consequence of rationalism. If you consider the psychological structure of our current society, it’s fair to say that propaganda is the major guiding principle. In a remarkable way, the pursuit of rationality during the tradition of Enlightenment didn’t lead to more Truthful speech, as the founding fathers of this tradition believed. Science would replace questionable religious and other myths; society would finally be organized according to reliable information instead of subjective conjectures. Now, a few centuries later, this turned out to be an illusion. There has never been as much unreliable information as now in public space.
The materialist-rationalist view on man and the world, in a strange way, rather led to the opposite of what it expected. As soon as we started to conceive the human being as a mechanistic, biological entity, for whom the highest attainable goal was survival, it became rather unfashionable to try to speak the Truth.

Thank you very much for that speech and subsequent discussion. I pasted in a small passage above to illustrate something I found he didn’t present well therein namely how we got from Enlightenment rationality to propaganda/false speech. His later remarks and insights about the power of sincere speech are original and potent; I had never read them before, so thanks again.
If I recall aright, mass formation takes the disconnectedness of modern life as the natural result of the Enlightenment’s ‘materialist-rationalist’ view which soon evolved into falsely positing the fictive abstraction known as ‘objective reality’ as the container for all life forms, something fervently believed despite the Enlightenment’s rationality having supposedly moved us forever beyond misleading superstition.
My takeaway from his mass formation thesis is that modern society communicates a distorted perception of reality to a significant percentage of whom it makes to feel isolated and disconnected and who then feel connection through propaganda promising to alleviate the mass anxiety increasingly felt by a population in continuous psychological distress – a type of existential Hell if Hell is being trapped in pain without hope or means of relief.
His concluding call for a ‘metaphysical revolution’ is Bang On! Materialism has jaundiced our attitudes about the metaphysical, but really we just need to value those aspects of living experience that are not merely physical or ‘objective’. This is not a big deal, though denying it, as rationalist-materialism has been doing for far too long, is.
===========================================================
Techie note: for ZH, it helps to paste in the title – makes it easy to search for. Even better is to install a tinyurl extension into your browser which creates a link that is accepted here.
Also, as it happens, this speech is available on Desmet’s substack at: https://words.mattiasdesmet.org/p/my-speech-in-the-parliament-of-romania?r=249yjv&nthPub=841

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 2 2024 16:09 utc | 111

Truth tellers have been dropping like ninepins…
JOhn PIlger

Gringo are like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed BS all day long.

Mark Valencia

Why is Australia conducting provocative intelligence flights and activities off the China coast in support of the US?

Andre Vitchek

Please do not poison my brain with the US elections.”

The fundamental law of probability…

Once a happenstance, twice a coincidence, thrice…enemy action !

Somebody sould do an autopsy on these gents.

Posted by: denk | Jan 2 2024 16:22 utc | 112

@ waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 9:05 utc | 98
that’s interesting.. we seem to be on the opposite side of this! i guess i can’t see thru desmet and think he makes a very important commentary on why we are all so easily led by propaganda today… he is explaining it from a different angle, but one i appreciate reading about… cheers..

Posted by: james | Jan 2 2024 17:16 utc | 113

I’m near the end of my journey through The Republic, with many clarifications coming in the last few books, reminding one of the beginnings of the dialogue and investing each of those participating in ‘the argument’ with individual character as they respond on particular paths Socrates takes them on. They are, as it progresses, three brothers with a famous father, Plato being the youngest of the three; though he, like Gyges, is invisibly orchestrating, (presumably from memory,) where each thread leads: in a true labrynthian saga most meaningful to the participants taking turns until the very end, whilst the rest of the gathering has mostly remained silent. And there is a retelling of myth still to come in the final chapter!
For the technical aspects of the dialogue it is best to go to plato-dialoges.org, the work of Bernard Suzanne, and perhaps find one’s way through the preliminaries there – the format is easy to follow.
This dialogue, Bernard Suzanne proposes, is the central one in a series of dialogues, part of an overall schematic that Plato has composed as a whole — perhaps after founding and managing his school in Athens.
Here, the participants are in their prime, inviting us (literally it is Socrates who does so) to consider their stories partially revealed by the conversations which Plato has Socrates initiate, as they agree or ask questions, time and place being always present — the past and ominous future as well. This is what makes Plato’s vision of philosophy far, far more complex than that of Aristotle. The latter’s compilations in that realm are much easier to track, while having perhaps a greater influence on history.
We learn from Plato, (or think we do), how to think, not what to think. And we learn to love the process.
As we should be doing here! For this too is a small house (each in his own!) with friends at the foot of a big world with all the sound and fury outside, conversations inside always determined by the persons making a contribution to the argument. I’m happy to be here at the beginning of a new year; thank you all for coming, and thank you, b, for hosting us. A quote from above:
“… There has never been as much unreliable information as now in public space…”
I wonder if that is entirely the case, though it certainly seems true for my lifetime at least. Is this space public or private? And Athens seems to have been a hotbed of swirling dialectic in Plato’s time; we certainly don’t have institutions of learning that have lasted as long as his Athenaeum did. Oh, but maybe somebody in Europe or Asia can make the claim; we will perhaps hear from learned folk on that.
I’d better stop there. Sorry to be so verbose, but let it stand. And again, happy New Year; may it be dialectical!

Posted by: juliania | Jan 2 2024 17:21 utc | 114

Happy new year to all.
Reading RT (a rarity as I rarely visit) this morning I was struck by two items. First an ironic post by IR occupying Iran’s “dignified sex work client” propaganda outlet that “Iran deploys navy to Red Sea”. I can just see Dmitry with a satisfied smile as he typed those words for the head line. (Get it? it is funny, tbh.)
The second one was also indicative of Russian mindset but more generally I would think the gentlemen in West, Sound, and Central Asia can be better understood by the words of this Russian academic:
“ The elites of Western Europe – and especially in Germany – are in a state of historical failure. The main basis of their 500-year domination [of the world] was military superiority, on which the economic, political and cultural dominance of the West was built. But this has been knocked out from under them. With the help of this advantage, they manipulated the world’s resources in their favor. First they plundered their colonies, and later they did the same, but with more sophisticated methods.”
Now, it is a fact and not in dispute that Europeans, having chanced upon a secret formula X (tbd and subject of this wall of words, so be patient) that afforded them mastery over the entire planet, completely changing the civilizational discourse in all continents, whether in harmony or discord, whether as permanent confrontation or gradual or ready embrace, and created the modern world which is instantly familiar to nearly all inhabitants on this planet for the first time ever (ever) in recorded history.
Now the sad fact remains that the sort of person who ends up being a promoted academic in West, South, and Central Asian societies (the cause? tbd+, see above) sees the foundation of this remarkable history of the Western man over the past 500 years as being nothing but superior arms. They “strong armed” their way to the top, sure, but the question professor is how did they get so virile and effective?
The core civilizational problem of the aforementioned areas of Asia (and other parts “south”), speaking as a native of one of the said parts, who was basically forced by the facts of the utterly inexplicable sad and sorry condition of my own people and the rest of Asia to seek an answer as to wtf happened here was and remaiins cultural.
European ruling classes and emerging knowledge workers stumbled upon an alignment of interests that transformed European civilization. The key distinguishing factor of European modern civilization is their system of rule without supreme leaders. A characteristic of European modern history is also the episodic rise and destructive fall of supreme leaders (Napoleon and Hitler).
European elite introduced social mobility into their society. This hugely expanded the human resources, in terms of thought, ambition, innovation, administration, management, planning, executing, available to the system. Naturally, martial technology advanced in tandem, but was not the only sector of society that was so transformed. They all did.
In conjunction with this, West dared to defy “our fathers’ way” mindset prevalent everywhere and broke free from mental shackles to explore new thoughts, ideas, and dreams, The past 500 years of Europe are not note worthy and historic (in the same way Classical Greece or Ancient Egypt or Fabled Persia or amazing China ..) because of arms and military technology and feats.
Social mobility, clearly obvious to the joe the street, motivated a sense of shared stake in the “glory of empire”. Europe of the past 500 years minus the past few decades of nose dive (“for the glory of Zion”) is an amazing chapter in human history in terms of arts, letters, sciences (natural and otherwise), and an a veritable explosion of knowledge and cataloguing of every little critter on earth and every past nation. My own people were educated as to our history by the Western man.
In all of Asia, only the Japanese did the sensible thing when confronted by the pointy end of the Western civilization arriving on their shores. They self reflected, observed the newly arrived barbarians, and they did some think time (with actual intellectuals and not the sort you find in other parts of Asia) and they come up with a 19th century version of a powerpoint with bullet points and the wonder that are the Japanese people read it and acted on it, as a whole society.
Now this mention of Japanese requires a quick note regarding the two tragedies that has happened so far in 2024. I watched 2 clips, one from inside the plane that was on fire, and then another from inside a train in a station shaking violently due to the quake. Remarkably but typically, in both you have perfectly calm Japanese making gasping sounds of what I presume are “oh my, this is awful”, “oh, so scary”, but sitting like perfectly civilized people. Can you just imagine the scene and you can substitute ANY other nation practically here. What a difference. A mark of actual intelligence imho.
What is evident in my reading of the journals of a few intellectuals of Iran and Japan during the early years of being confronted with this this new European man is that what excited them and caused their words of admiration for the West definitely was not arms or military prowess. The near universal expression is that of wonder at the order of the society, how goods and people are transported, how the personages in government are treated by the common man (no groveling on ground, kissing boots, etc. quite common in Asia to this day)
See, the West, before its evident and tragic nose dive into self colonization by parasitical elites, managed to find a way to motivate the state, in its full glory, without the need for a special man. The West conquered because its elites worked in concert. The system functioned century after century, because unlike Asians, the new European society did not require *cults of strong personalities* to make progress. In Asia, with the exception of Japanese, civilization lurches forward, punctuated by energetics bursts of progress centered around a person. Because the elite of Asia can not cooperate unless they are inthrall of a magnate. To this day, Putin, Khamenei, Modi, and Xi.
These systems, antiques that they are, reflect a still under developed tribal mindset underlying these societies. Because of the unnatural structure of having a single individual oversight over the complex matter that is a modern civilization (looking beyond mere statecraft) necessitates suppression of others and demands a sycophantic ‘court’ , the ill effects percolate to all areas of society. Our ignorant learned Russian professor quoted in RT is a specimen of the type of person that succeeds in these Asiatic systems.
So yes, West has definitely gone off course and the direction set by Cabal is not acceptable. However the choice of the alternatives is equally alarming. The mindset that informs the Russian professor is widely held amongst the brute (intellect and otherwise) types that are naturally attracted to the Asiatic power structures. They truly do not understand just what made West change the world in a way that no other civilization has done to date. None.
p.s. “self hating Jew” rebuttals save your breath. others welcome.

Posted by: robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 18:45 utc | 115

The powerpoint”>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/5jo1.gif”>powerpoint slide mentioned earlier:

By this oath, we set up as our aim the establishment of the national wealth on a broad basis and the framing of a constitution and laws.
* Deliberative assemblies shall be widely established and all matters decided by open discussion.
* All classes, high and low, shall be united in vigorously carrying out the administration of affairs of state.
* The common people, no less than the civil and military officials, shall all be allowed to pursue their own calling so that there may be no discontent.
* Evil customs of the past shall be broken off and everything based upon the just laws of Nature.
* Knowledge shall be sought throughout the world so as to strengthen the foundation of imperial rule.

West, South, Central and (“almost European”) Asians can learn from 19th century Japanese.

Posted by: robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 19:12 utc | 116

@ waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 9:05 utc | 98
that’s interesting.. we seem to be on the opposite side of this! i guess i can’t see thru desmet…
Posted by: james | Jan 2 2024 17:16 utc | 113
Yeah, we would prolly need some beers to kick this back and forth. Nothing to get wound up about tho, imo.
There was tremendous pressure by the government(s) to conform to their narrative regarding Covid. I attribute the conformity to that pressure rather than to some kind of mass hypnosis or mass psychological disorder.
From Desmet’s speech: “Rationality is a good thing and we need to walk the path of rationality as far as possible, but it is not the end goal.”
Oh? I think it is the goal. Where can we go without it? It’s what is required to cut thru propaganda.
The rest of his speech seemed to be a sales pitch for his book telling us what TRUTH is. I found it vapid.
Well, I think I’ll pop a beer. Way to early for YOU to be drinking so maybe I’ll even have another for you.
Not to worry tho’, there will always be a cold one or more waiting should you and your wife drop by on
your next trip to Norway. (Not a bad idea y’know, think about it!)

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 19:48 utc | 117

@ waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 19:48 utc | 117
lol! right on! enjoy those beers and they are quality beers too probably!
i can pick apart things as easily as the next person.. i read his book.. i like this idea of mass formation.. my take is people are easily lied to and fall into a type of group think about a lot of things.. we see it regularly and discuss this here at moa where alternative views are appreciated and considered.. he has acknowledged the work on totalitarianism as being influenced by hannah arendt.. it is an interesting idea to think about this in context of what is a more materialistic society we are presently living in, compared to previous generations.. maybe i am wrong on this generalization, but i don’t think so…
i liked this quote from the article “propaganda is not a historical coincidence, it is a structural consequence of rationalism. If you consider the psychological structure of our current society, it’s fair to say that propaganda is the major guiding principle. In a remarkable way, the pursuit of rationality during the tradition of Enlightenment didn’t lead to more Truthful speech, as the founding fathers of this tradition believed. Science would replace questionable religious and other myths; society would finally be organized according to reliable information instead of subjective conjectures. Now, a few centuries later, this turned out to be an illusion. There has never been as much unreliable information as now in public space.”
my brother was mentioning he is reading some of “Nietzsche’s writings on Truth…. Pretty interesting how he analysis language, reason and the determination of truth.” it was funny he mentioned this to me before i had read that post from suzan, as it seems language, the use of language and speech is central to all these ideas about truth verses propaganda… people say a lot of convincing things, but are they true??
is mattais desmet a self serving prat? lol… maybe, but that is not the impression i got from reading his book.. is he promoting his upcoming book here? yes, but i think it is because this topic and related topics are his passion… i listen to people who are especially passionate, and while i don’t ignore others, i process it all to the best of my abilities.. unlike jane, i don’t think desmet got it all wrong on covid.. i certainly didn’t get that from his book, or get that he was blaming the victims as jane suggests..
maybe someone could convince me to see all this differently.. i am fine with others seeing things differently..
enjoy those beers! it is indeed just noon time here and i still have to get a few things done before i can kick back and have a beer!

Posted by: james | Jan 2 2024 20:08 utc | 118

@robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 18:45 utc | 115
Interesting thougths, but I think the question is even more complicated and ramified. The cultural problem with Russia (and even more with the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire) is that it is a huge and complex land empire: you cannot control so many peoples, religions, customs without an iron fist. The fable of the happy multicultural society is just that, a fable. Russia shares many cultural traits with the rest of Europe, but while the rest of Europe built nation states since the middle ages, Russia inherited the idea of a Roman/Byzantine universal empire. Of course, the multiculturalism of the so called Western World is a neoliberal/neocon dream, but a cultural and social nightmare.
The loathing of European culture, i.e. the woke hate against “Eurocentrism”, is the attempt by a decadent ruling class to maintain its power by weakening those cultural traits that made European societies so dynamic and self rejuvaneting for at least a millennium (as I said many times, the 500 years dominance is another misleading factoid). Of course, many many weak minds around the world embrace this neoliberal criticism of Eurocentrism as a pathetic revenge against the perceived humiliations. But that is exactly the main threat to the progress of mankind: you cannot reproduce the successes of the European civilization, without embracing its cultural traits, without the comprehension of what made it so great and unique. We already have good examples of failed imitations: the so called Golden Age of Islam fizzled in a blink of an eye, even though they head the riches, the population, the army and the fanatical motivation to expand. Those were not enough 1000 years ago, and they are not enough now.

Posted by: SG | Jan 2 2024 20:37 utc | 119

“…Once the British had got rid of Indian home and village-based textile manufacturing, what happened to all those people whose livelihoods were destroyed? …” Refinnejenna@91
Rather as in the other end of the empire-the British Isles- millions were driven overseas as indentured labour.
Most of the domestic textile workers, the artisans put out of work, were also parts of families which also farmed smallholdings, exploited common resources and otherwise maintained subsistence economies, which included communal land management and self government. The Indian Village as Democracy is an old theme among historians.
When the textile market was removed from these finely balanced domestic economies the whole society fell into pieces. The British tried to replace it as they had replaced the medieaval structures in England with the tripartite system: landowners (zemindars), tenant farmers and landless labourers (surplus population). That was the Cornwallis Land Settlement in Bengal scheme, there were others all variations though which replaced communal with private property.
The end result was migration-abroad as ‘coolies’ to communities throughout the Empire, often to replace slaves. On to the plantations, of tea, coffee, cotton, indigo, jute and opium- cash crops turning food producing lands into famine producing export depots. Into the urban areas. And, of course, into the Raj service, the Indian Army, the civil service (lower grades!) and into the states, of which there were many, ruled by native Indian Princes, nawabs and Sultans.
What always strikes me is how it mirrored, quite closely, what had already happened in the British Isles, first in the mainland and later in Scotland and then in Ireland too. The same ‘evolution’ (under legal and ultimately violent compulsion) from communal to private ownership, the same division of the peasantry into a tiny Kulak/Farmer elite of favoured tenants and a mass of landless labourers.
And the same flood of ‘surplus’ (which is to say dispossessed) labour into the cities, the fisheries, domestic service, gang labour and factory labour and- either as voluntary migrant, indentured servant or convict- into the colonies.
The same pattern recurs just about everywhere around the world. And behind it you will invariably catch a glimpse of the lawyer, legalising every form of theft and violent robbery.
I suppose that is why Falstaff wanted them killed.

Posted by: bevin | Jan 2 2024 20:39 utc | 120

James #87, Lavrovs dog #90, and some following comments touching on Desmet and concept of “truth”, thank you for replies.
In medicine/psychiatry, there is a concept of aphasia, which in one form, relates to the idea of not being able to understand/remember the most simple idea of a physical, touchable thing; in other words – the most abstract things are most difficult to comprehend.
Here is the problem – the distinction between “to believe” and “to know”.
How boring…
It reminds me of the cartoon by Heinrich H. Hoier – of God sitting somewhere on the clouds of heavens, in front of two levers, one of which is labelled “Werden” (to Become) and the other “Vergehen” (to Pass) – those two verbs are not really expressing in English what they mean in German. The thought of God is also there “my god, how boring”.

Posted by: fanto | Jan 2 2024 20:56 utc | 121

enjoy those beers and they are quality beers too probably!
Posted by: james | Jan 2 2024 20:08 utc | 118
Yeah, they’re good. And it only takes one to make me drunk, often the 4th one or the 5th one.
They’re from the world’s most northerly brewery too, btw. (the things people brag on, lol)
I finished mine and just opened yours so will write a couple notes just to end my day.
“i can pick apart things as easily as the next person.”
Yeah, so we can. Jane was prolly smart not to engage.
“…my take is people are easily lied to and fall into a type of group think about a lot of things.. we see it regularly and discuss this here at moa where alternative views are appreciated and considered..”
Truths are also told and groups result. One thing we should keep in mind here is that MoA is a political bar and most of the world would be very comfortable here. We are the majority, we’re just in the wrong neighborhood of the West to see that easily.
Desmet wrote:
“There has never been as much unreliable information as now in public space.”
Juliania mentioned this too. Sure there is more unreliable information than ever but there is also much more info that is reliable than in the past. The reliable info is taken for granted while the unreliable gets noticed as it gets exposed. On a percentage basis I don’t agree with his statement. I think reliable info is growing faster than unreliable info.
I’m off to bed. Your beer was great! Your generosity is appreciated.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 21:50 utc | 122

Interesting thougths, but I think the question is even more complicated and ramified. The cultural problem with Russia (and even more with the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire) is that it is a huge and complex land empire: you cannot control so many peoples, religions, customs without an iron fist.
Posted by: SG | Jan 2 2024 20:37 utc | 119
Thank you. This is precisely the mindset that I speak of which you are illustrating. (You should note that there is no analysis in that apologia for tyranny, merely excuses. “Ways of our fathers”.)
Never too late to learn what is good and positive from the West. Japan did it in 19th century. And they went on to kick some “European” navy’s ass, utterly humiliating them, from zero to ‘Zero’ in less than a century.
///
p.s. for Russian academics: Spanish Empire, advanced arms, colonies, more loot than you can even store, and … oops nothing really there, did it?

Posted by: robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 22:06 utc | 123

Posted by: SG | Jan 2 2024 20:37 utc | 119
Just to be clear: to say [edited]: “a huge and complex land empire: [with] so many peoples, religions, customs [can not be controlled] without an iron fist”
is actually saying (my claim): We don’t know how to govern and rule without iron fists.
It is a lack of knowledge. This lack is not due to obscurity of the matter. It is due to a lack of fearless critical self appraisal. The Japanese did this. Those 5 points and the statement of aims — note the brevity btw .. — are direct result of analysis and we can match them one by one to the thesis presented.

Posted by: robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 22:19 utc | 124

@ fanto | Jan 2 2024 20:56 utc | 121
that is quite interesting fanto – ‘to believe’ verses ‘to know’…. unfortunately many folks jump from the first to concluding the 2nd without much thought! in fact we know very little, although arrogance and hubris are plentiful… cheers
@ waynorinorway | Jan 2 2024 21:50 utc | 123
thanks buddy! sweet dreams and i do like what you said in the last 2 paragraphs too…

Posted by: james | Jan 2 2024 22:44 utc | 125

@robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 22:19 utc | 125

It is due to a lack of fearless critical self appraisal. The Japanese did this.

It is difficult to develop a completely honest self-appraisal when you have so many internal enemies, who could use an honest criticism for dishonest seditious aims: the Russians fought against revolts and uprisings well into the XIX century. After the October revolution, much of central Asia rebelled against the Russian authority. The war in Chechnya was just one more example. Unlike the British Empire, which clearly divided the “civilized” and democratic parts of the Empire, from the colonies to be ruled with a firm hand, Russia is a mishmash. However I do not think that Russians lack the cultural tools to do it and that is why I am pretty sure that Russia will try to reach a deal of cooperation with Western Europe and probably even the USA, after the end of the Ukrainian affair. The fact is that Russians are not humble and, about that, they are much unlike Asians: they have not the contrived mannerisms of East Asians or even Arabs. This results in ludicrous self boasting, but many Russians (who are oftentimes called fifth columnists around here) know their strengths and weaknesses and their place in the world. The problem is that this detachment from reality is getting stronger in the so called West, thanks to the neoliberal/neocon propaganda. But that is a very long story.

Posted by: SG | Jan 2 2024 23:49 utc | 126

Posted by: robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 18:45 utc | 115
The core civilizational problem of the aforementioned areas of Asia (and other parts “south”), speaking as a native of one of the said parts, who was basically forced by the facts of the utterly inexplicable sad and sorry condition of my own people and the rest of Asia to seek an answer as to wtf happened here was and remains cultural.
European ruling classes and emerging knowledge workers stumbled upon an alignment of interests that transformed European civilization. The key distinguishing factor of European modern civilization is their system of rule without supreme leaders.

VERY interesting post. Worthy topic for an entire book!
1: if you don’t mind, what part of Asia do you come from?
2: As to the ‘system of rule without supreme leaders’: this seems like a great insight but I would add that such was a result of a class system now largely misunderstood and pretty much lost forever.
The only thing I ever read about this is ‘Democracy needs Aristocracy’ by family friend Sir Peregrine Worsthorne, ex Sunday Telegraph Editor and stepson of Central Banker Montegu Norman, an eruditely playful study of how valuable an ‘upper class’ can be in civilizational dynamics.
However, I believe it a mistake to consider one class in isolation from the others because leaders and followers are mutual creations – a captain without men is as useless as men without their captain. Societies are layered, multi-faceted, dynamic, continuously evolving and yet with a core, relatively constant character. The class system both differentiates and unifies creating a symphonic whole, a tartan knit together by infinitely multiplicitous relationships – the opposite of the atomized wasteland so rightly deplored by Desmet.
I suspect what impressed the RoW during Western Civilization’s height was not its cruel rapaciousness but its brilliant confidence as exemplified by the many pioneer types it encountered – which you call ‘Order’, its vision of how large societies could operate both efficiently and grandly. As you mentioned, the Japanese – not without their own grandeur and arrogance – saw something worth voluntarily adopting as their own.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 2 2024 23:59 utc | 127

(I am just catching up)
So transferring my reply to this thread.
@ Scorpion.
by: Scorpion | Jan 2 2024 16:09 utc | 111
“My takeaway from his mass formation thesis is that modern society communicates a distorted perception of reality to a significant percentage of whom it makes to feel isolated and disconnected and who then feel connection through propaganda promising to alleviate the mass anxiety increasingly felt by a population in continuous psychological distress – a type of existential Hell if Hell is being trapped in pain without hope or means of relief.”
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 2 2024 15:26 utc | 239 [pal theead]
Thanks Scorpion. I thought you might enjoy that talk.
Yea. The materialist culture is a transactional culture even without the propagandizing, separating everybody and everything into discrete, sometimes fungible units as though the only possible relations are those of gain or loss. The language structure of English reinforces this mindset as it is not process-oriented relational like Chinese iiuc.
The infrastructures of materialist-rationalist societies often seed an imbedded-ness of fixed-ness, both material and ideational, into the future which can function as obstructionist deadwood to a vital living present.
And so imbalances arise in cultural life, often from the excrescences of political-economical priorities manifested as transactional human relationships which alienate people from oneself, each other, ‘god’ and nature.
Without input from big mind views of reality nature to counterbalance the pragmatic rational monkey mind, civilization suffers a massive millstone weighing it down, dragging it down.

Posted by: suzan | Jan 3 2024 0:35 utc | 128

@ james | Jan 2 2024 20:08 utc | 118
regarding your comments about Desmet. I have read his book, but first saw his info, talks interviews and other material last year (2022 or was that 2023?)
There is nothing surprising in your comments above. It seems to be a fair appraisal of my “take away” message from his “work/interpretation” of what happened to societies during covid. I thought the phrase “mass formation” was apt. The goal was intentional – govts everywhere wanted their citizens to comply, and most of them did…. with obvious exceptions (good or bad)
The connections to methods of totalitarianism and the susceptibility of us humans to be manipulated (conned) by that and propaganda doesn’t strike me as being controversial in the least. Religious “cults” and mindnumbing “gurus” in a smaller cohort of numbers have the exact same issues / impacts he outlines in his “mass formation” ideas.
IMO while he uses a new term, there’s nothing really new on what he is saying that I hadn’t heard before or already accepted as how it is from multiple perspectives. Orwell and Arendt captured the same kinds of ideas effects and activities and methods imo.
Desmet speaks about how there needs to already be a high degree of fear and anxiety already in society for mass formation on a specific issue to take hold. Well no one is going to tell me that today, before covid that western societies were well balanced or well adjusted and not suffering from all kinds of “personality disorders and psychological effects” from our pathological modern day life.
Sounds like an interesting “theory” to me …. he might be right on his ideas or he’s lot quite right or off with the faeries. Time will tell.
What’s the big deal either way? He’s a professional Clinical Psychologist doing what Psychologists do – speaking about their observations and analysis conclusions – OMG shock horror – it’s a new idea! –
this was my first exposure fwiw
MATTIAS DESMET – THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TOTALITARIANISM – A HEADWIND DOCUMENTARY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS5_uyTNpZs
seems fairly straight forward to me. I am at loss to understand what all the fuss is about.
Except that Covid19 seems to have this enormous power to send all kinds of people over the deep end into extremism for no useful outcome bar “hand-waving hysteria” (smiling).
It started the moment covid19 was given a name in 2019.
Damn I wish it would stop and everyone calms down again. But I suspect I might be trashed for saying what I have said. Oooops. 🙂

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 0:55 utc | 129

Posted by: bevin | Jan 2 2024 20:39 utc | 120
When the textile market was removed from these finely balanced domestic economies the whole society fell into pieces. The British tried to replace it as they had replaced the medieaval structures in England with the tripartite system: landowners (zemindars), tenant farmers and landless labourers (surplus population). That was the Cornwallis Land Settlement in Bengal scheme, there were others all variations though which replaced communal with private property.

Thank you, interesting post.
Do you know why they did what you describe above, what was the purpose, stated or otherwise? Was there any possible positive reason or not?

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 1:03 utc | 130

@ james | Jan 2 2024 20:08 utc | 118
(typo) about Desmet. I have NOT read his book

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 1:06 utc | 131

Was there any possible positive reason or not?
Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 1:03 utc | 138
bevin | Jan 2 2024 20:39 utc | 120
Obvious yes. It made the British (EIC specifically) filthy rich and made it easier to assert their total control over the population and the governing elites of the subcontinent force them into entrenched ‘peonage’ for centuries.

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 1:11 utc | 132

“….. you cannot control so many peoples, religions, customs without an iron fist.”
Posted by: SG | Jan 2 2024 20:37 utc | 119
robinthehood | Jan 2 2024 22:06 utc | 124
What is with all these endless assumptions that
a) any “peoples” need to be “controlled” in the first place, or that
b) that there is another default assumption that all GOVTS MUST be wanting to “control” everyone in the second place, or that
c) “an iron fist” MUST BE the prerequisite Modus Operandi in the third place?
When clearly 10 to 12,000 plus years of human history shows the above to be utterly falsified already. Like seriously, what is all this rhetoric about and where do you folks find such ideas, and why does anyone believe them?

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 1:34 utc | 133

“…the multiculturalism of the so called Western World is […] a cultural and social nightmare.”
@ SG | Jan 2 2024 20:37 utc | 119
False. It’s a only a “word” that does not define the reality. Just because “multiculturalism” is considered bad, dysfunctional, a problem or inconsequential in some places by others or by your standards/values and judgements, does not mean it is like that in all places.
Nor does it mean, or could it ever mean, that a societies implementation and acceptance and active participation in “multiculturalism” anywhere was some kind of top down enforced action or objective of an intentional “neoliberal/neocon dream.”
This is all just ludicrous hyperbole imo that is patently not true at all.
“multiculturalism” has been around for 10 to 12,000 years and has often worked blissfully well and still works well today all over the world. Anyway, that is my opinion according to my observations and standards/values and judgements. I’ll shut up now, because I don’t want to get into trouble here.

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 1:52 utc | 134

Posted by: suzan | Jan 3 2024 0:35 utc | 136
Yea. The materialist culture is a transactional culture even without the propagandizing, separating everybody and everything into discrete, sometimes fungible units as though the only possible relations are those of gain or loss.

I first stumbled on materialism when noticing how Darwin’s theory is based on the materialist assumption that the universe is a giant machine in a self-existing, permanent ‘objective reality’ (contradicting the Three Marks of Existence). I also found parallels in both personal contemplative experiences and core Buddhist philosophy, not only in the pre-Christian era debunking of ‘atomism’ in the Abidharma but also in how the mind fixates on individuated abstractions, much as with selfhood ideation, and so how materialism’s ‘objective reality’ is, ironically, itself just an abstract mental construct misperceived as concrete, permanent, external reality. The more I considered this over time the more have become convinced that it is the huge Modernist Elephant in the room destroying the world both environmentally and culturally; of course it’s not that simple, yet it is an important issue that needs far more attention.
Now we have the prospect of multipolarity promising to cure the ills of Hegemony. But especially after the global Covid response, it seems that Russia, China et alia are no less materialist in thrust in which case I wonder how much better they will do once in the drivers seat. That said, they are executing sophisticated strategies with considerable skill – no small thing – moreover whilst valuing non-materialist cultural issues, so we’ll have to wait and see. As of now, though, it seems likely they are just the next, albeit hopefully better, iteration of the same old modernist materialism – new labels on same wine in same bottles.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 1:56 utc | 135

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 1:11 utc | 140
Was there any possible positive reason or not?
Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 1:03 utc | 138
bevin | Jan 2 2024 20:39 utc | 120
Obvious yes. It made the British (EIC specifically) filthy rich and made it easier to assert their total control over the population and the governing elites of the subcontinent force them into entrenched ‘peonage’ for centuries.

Well, bevin mentioned that they also did that in their own countries first, so your explanation might be correct, but on this thread thanks to robinhood we have been examining some of the positive aspects – of which there were some – not just the exploitative ones.
The British rule in India only started in 1858 and they were kicked out in 1947 so it wasn’t really ‘centuries’. That said, before that it was the East India Company (owned by the infamous City!) a commercial plundering operation using national government of England for cover and muscle. Still, one has to wonder – just as with Latin America – how is it that such a tiny number of foreigners could wield so much influence over so many millions. The answer is surely not in material quanta alone, there was something else going on. One of its nastier elements, no doubt, was the animating conviction in being exceptional, but within that questionable seed there must be some sort of essence which is also truly exceptional (just as with every single child, every single mother, every single living soul etc.). For a while, for whatever reason, and despite attendant crimes and abuse which am not denying, something special was going on as well.
No doubt there are many elements therein, some logistical and some spiritual; in any case, I hope the multipolarists can restore some of the good ones whilst avoiding all the bad whilst no doubt adding in some great new ones of their own.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 2:10 utc | 136

@ Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 0:55 utc | 137 // 139
thanks lavrov’s dog… i think you’re right and he is not really articulating anything new, with one exception.. i can’t say i know much about what orwell or arendt writings.. i have read a few books… what i think is different is that desmet is saying the clutching to materialism and material rationalism has gone further down the road here in 2024.. so that would be different…
your quote “Well no one is going to tell me that today, before covid that western societies were well balanced or well adjusted and not suffering from all kinds of “personality disorders and psychological effects” from our pathological modern day life.”
i agree with you, but then in the 50’s we have mcchartyism… the red scare.. they locked a lot of people over that, or made sure if you were any type of artist or creative, you were immediately on the suspect list… in some ways things haven’t changed much, maybe only gotten worse in that many think they are free – free to consume the propaganda without question, lol..
i still don’t know the deal about covid.. was it a biological experiment gone wrong, or a controlled exercise? or? it seems to me no matter what it was, there were people – organizations even – that had gamed this in advance and had an agenda if something like this was to happen.. i can’t prove this, so it will have to go into the conspiracy theory category.. regardless, it seems people are more easily duped today then ever before, in spite of all the access to information..
anyway – i think mattias desmet has some valuable insights and ideas to share.. he may not be for everyone, but that’s okay too! cheers..

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2024 3:40 utc | 137

Bevin @ 120, Scorpion @ 138, Lavrov’s Dog @ 140:
The “positive reason” for the British doing what they did, in creating a new socio-economic hierarchy in India, same as what they did in Britain, was to create a large labour pool that could be exploited. As Bevin notes, this large labour pool could be used as indentured labour in many British colonies around the world, especially in the Caribbean, in Fiji, in many parts of eastern and southern Africa and in the Malay Peninsula.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 3 2024 5:07 utc | 138

Scorpion @ 144:
Direct British rule may have begun in 1858 after the Sepoy Rebellion but indirect rule through the British East India Company began a century earlier at least after the Battle of Plassey in 1757.
How the [British] East India Company Became the World’s Most Powerful Monopoly

‘… A major turning point in the East India Company’s transformation from a profitable trading company into a full-fledged empire came after the Battle of Plassey in 1757. The battle pitted 50,000 Indian soldiers under the Nawab of Bengal against just 3,000 Company men. The Nawab was angry with the Company for skirting taxes. But what the Nawab didn’t know was that the East India Company’s military leader in Bengal, Robert Clive, had struck a backroom deal with Indian bankers so that most of the Indian army refused to fight at Plassey.
Clive’s victory gave the East India Company broad taxation powers in Bengal, then one of the richest provinces in India. Clive plundered the Nawab’s treasure and shipped it back to London (keeping plenty for himself, of course). Erikson sees the East India Company’s actions in Bengal as a seismic shift in its corporate mission.
“This completely changes the Company’s business model from one that had been focused on profitable trade to one that focused on tax collection,” says Erikson. “That’s when it became a really damaging institution, in my opinion.”
In 1784, the British Parliament passed Prime Minister William Pitt’s “India Act,” which formally included the British government in ruling over the East India Company’s land holdings in India.
“When this act came into being, the Company ceased to be a very significant trade power or a significant governing power in India,” says Roy. “The proper British Empire took hold.”…’

It must be said also that in the first half of the 1700s, the Mughal Empire (ruling northern and much of central India) was in a process of decline and disintegration, and governors of provinces seized the opportunity to rule their governorships as de facto mini-kings. The Nawab of Bengal was such a ruler. Robert Clive was, shall we say, something of a ruthless opportunist whose management of the EIC from 1757 to 1767 led to the Great Bengal Famine in 1770.
Hero and villain: Robert Clive of the East India Company

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 3 2024 5:31 utc | 139

@ Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 2:10 utc | 144
the positive aspects – of corporate piracy, totalitarian tyranny, and outright theft?
Sorry. I got stuck right there and could not read on. 🙂
OK I did because this stood out – The British rule in India only started in 1858
Oh please stop – the rule began the day the East India Company turned up in the very early 1600s and was further fixed in place in 1764 by Clive of India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Allahabad and during other similar so called trading concessions, treaties and arrangements with the Mughal empire and princes of various regions before that to extract “loot”. It began with the company’s defeat of the Portuguese in India (1612) – Beginning in the early 1620s, the East India Company began using slave labour and transporting enslaved people to its facilities in Southeast Asia and India as well as to the island of St. Helena in the Atlantic Ocean, west of Angola.
So there is more than 400 years of history before Indian independence in 1947. Please, do not make assumptions.
Maybe Pause – do some history research, and then try again in a few weeks?
https://www.britannica.com/money/topic/East-India-Company
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
Originally formed to trade in Asia, the East India Company came to rule large areas of the Indian subcontinent, exercising military power through its formidable private army.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/armies-east-india-company
Yes, please research it thoroughly and then come and tell us all about the positive aspects 🙂

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 5:45 utc | 140

james | Jan 3 2024 3:40 utc | 147
Yes for sure, I agree. “the clutching to materialism and material rationalism has gone further down the road here in 2024” it is much more entrenched today – than even a short 30 years ago – the Internet has literally changed everything – including US!
Another thing different (but related) in his presentations is the emphasis on “technocratic/technology totalitarianism” (if I hear him correctly, I checked a couple of things) iow the forces of corporate IT technocrats vs things being pushed by the Govts as in the “olden days” ???
So he’s updating old approaches with the new age IT ‘marketing / advertising’, msm global news distribution, cloud power of modern day propaganda distribution incl mundane things like google search, twitter, facebook being cancelled and banned and other forms of control and distribution real or imagined.
iow all these things played a role in the covid19 “mass formation” project – repetitive reinforcement on steroids. 🙂
(excuse text, I’m rushing)

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 5:57 utc | 141

@Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 1:56 utc | 143

Now we have the prospect of multipolarity promising to cure the ills of Hegemony. But especially after the global Covid response, it seems that Russia, China et alia are no less materialist in thrust in which case I wonder how much better they will do once in the drivers seat. That said, they are executing sophisticated strategies with considerable skill – no small thing – moreover whilst valuing non-materialist cultural issues, so we’ll have to wait and see. As of now, though, it seems likely they are just the next, albeit hopefully better, iteration of the same old modernist materialism – new labels on same wine in same bottles.

Yep, the problem is not capitalism it is all of the modernist philosophies which worship human “progress” and the domination of the ecology. One can only hope that China once on top will move away from the belief that more stuff = happiness.
@Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 2:10 utc | 144

The British rule in India only started in 1858 and they were kicked out in 1947 so it wasn’t really ‘centuries’. That said, before that it was the East India Company (owned by the infamous City!) a commercial plundering operation using national government of England for cover and muscle. Still, one has to wonder – just as with Latin America – how is it that such a tiny number of foreigners could wield so much influence over so many millions. The answer is surely not in material quanta alone, there was something else going on.

The British East India Company was very good at playing one group off against another, as it did expertly and with some luck, in India. There was no one “India” but many smaller kingdoms ruled by mostly Moslem monarchs. The British exploited the competitiveness and avarice of those monarchies. It also tended to start small, with agreements on sharing customs revenues for example and then insidiously moved step by step to dominate.
The Spanish did the same in South America, the tales of a small band of conquistadors defeating armies of tens of thousands is utter rubbish. The Spanish allied with one kingdom to overthrow the other, having tens of thousands of native soldiers allied with them. Of course, later on they would stab those allies in the back. It was disease plus the divide and conquer tactics that mostly lead to Spanish victories.
By the time the “scramble for Africa” got going European technology was much more advanced than the indigenous technologies, so the Europeans could simply mow down the opposing armies with guns, machine guns and cannons. We must also remember that prior to the period of European colonization, and during it, Europe engaged in one horrific war after another that both brutalized the population and lead to rapid development in war tactics and war technology.
It was the fully centralized nations in Asia, with autocratic efficient bureaucracies China and Japan, that resisted being colonized. The same for Russia. Japan was subjugated in World War 2, but Russia and China still remain as the unsubjugated. That’s why all the Western plans are to break up Russia, to make it more easily dominated by the West.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 6:01 utc | 142

@Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 5:45 utc | 150

Yes, please research it thoroughly and then come and tell us all about the positive aspects 🙂

Only imperial apologists such as Niall Ferguson will be able to come up with positive aspects!

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 6:03 utc | 143

One of these days the President of the USA is going to grant US citizenship to all.

The significance of Roman citizenship declined in the empire, however, because military service was no longer compulsory, and suffrage was invalidated by the abolition of republican government. In AD 212 the Edict of Caracalla granted citizenship to all free inhabitants of the empire.

Posted by: Passerby | Jan 3 2024 9:12 utc | 144

The USA has reached 34 trillion dollars in debt and it took a short time. When will it be 50? Not too long, because the more this goes on, the more it is heading towards exponentioal growth.
Weimarica is desperately lashing out in the only way it can, learned from Rome and UK -> military adventures.
However, militarization without industrial base is futile when facing an opponent that HAS the same industrial might in throves and an economic model that is increasingly independent of the hegemonic economic order.
At this point, murica is heading straight for the ash-heap of dead empires and maybe in a more spectacular way than any empire before it.
The next elected president (if it will happen) needs to study how Gorbatschew managed to take the Soviet Union down without civil war or thousands of nuclear weapons out of hand.
NOW, the most important thing for those of us who do not live in murica is how to get rid of our USA-puppets and develop our own future course.

Posted by: Et Norden | Jan 3 2024 9:25 utc | 145

Ream James on covid : i think it was the beginning of the war of the 1 percent on thecrest of the world. It helped polarize societies to an extent that for you in N America is very familiar but has been applied to us in Europe via pro or vs vaxxx, followed by pro or vs Putin, followed now by pro or vs Likud. It is accompanied by an unseen mccartysm in universities and the intelligentsia . What seems to be at stake is to have the local elites participate “willingly” to a war on the poor wherever they are, poor who should be happy that we take them as refugees for slavish work coz “it’s much worse where they come from” (a situation we make the best to prolong by pouring weapons we manufacture).
I should add that in all these the EU has proved that it has the very best propaganda machine it can dream of, far above the cia.

Posted by: Minaa | Jan 3 2024 9:57 utc | 146

Strange..i thought i asked bevin to comment on the point he made on another thread of a relation between enlightment on Sade. Has that been wiped out to?
I think Sade described some of the common practices in the Church (incl schools and convents) and that explains the way France rejected catholic authorities progressively throughout the 19th c (they came back in the shape of lobbies, including at the min of foreign affairs, unfortunately). But you cant blame enlightment for these.
What was your point, exactly?

Posted by: Mînaa | Jan 3 2024 10:03 utc | 147

Houps, i found my comment to bevin upthread, for once
Way there in Norway, i think that after we walk the path of rationality and true speech with Desmet we can allow for Iain McGilchrist to step in.
And many thanks to whoever first brought him in this bar.

Posted by: Minaa | Jan 3 2024 10:19 utc | 148

SG
The golden age(s) of Islam happened every time there was a pluri-ethnic and multireligious, i. e. cosmopolitan society, and enough resources for scholars to exist with a state sponsoring.

Posted by: Minaa | Jan 3 2024 10:43 utc | 149

@Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 1:52 utc | 134

Nor does it mean, or could it ever mean, that a societies implementation and acceptance and active participation in “multiculturalism” anywhere was some kind of top down enforced action or objective of an intentional “neoliberal/neocon dream.”

You are completely missing my point. Societies with multiple cultures are typical of empires or kingdoms, which always were autocratic. Democracy developed in nation states. The neoliberal/neocon plan is to foster multiculturalism in the nation states to weaken their democratic fundations.

Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 11:51 utc | 150

@Roger | Jan 3 2024 6:01 utc | 142

The Spanish did the same in South America, the tales of a small band of conquistadors defeating armies of tens of thousands is utter rubbish.

It is not. While holding those colonies required the willing collaboration of the natives, Spanish soldiers in America and Portuguese soldiers in India and South-East Asia were already a most fearsome force at the beginning of the XVI century. The battles of Otumba or Cajamarca, the conquest of Malacca or the siege of Diu, were the result of boldness, fierceness and superior warfare.

We must also remember that prior to the period of European colonization, and during it, Europe engaged in one horrific war after another that both brutalized the population and lead to rapid development in war tactics and war technology.

Horrific wars were not a peculiarity of Europe. Not at all. China was at war for most of its history up to the European age of explorations, India the same, the Middle East was the Middle East even back then and the Americas were a hotbed of petty wars. If anything Europe produced some of the most stable polities of the time.

It was the fully centralized nations in Asia, with autocratic efficient bureaucracies China and Japan, that resisted being colonized. The same for Russia. Japan was subjugated in World War 2, but Russia and China still remain as the unsubjugated.

China did not resist being colonized. It was conquered and brutalized multiple times, by Mongols, British and Japanese. The colonization of China caused the Boxer rebellion, which was swiftly suppressed.
Russia is just the legacy of a land based European empire, not too different from the Austrian empire or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 12:24 utc | 151

From previous open thread….
Eighthman
https://www.newsweek.com/erasing-american-global-military-footprint-wont-make-better-world-opinion-1853556
The latest in warmonger thinking. Fairly, if guys are from a “war” college, I don’t think diplomacy is their primary concern. The US has made mistakes but had good intentions (as with ‘the road to hell’?).Without the US, dictatorships would be everywhere and Russia/China would run loose (gasp!)
———————-
This CIA psyop has been circulating in alt media for many years now.
The Rule for Respectable Commentary
In a nutshell

Be careful what you wish for, China could be worse. !

IN fact,
This is the manifesto of the bar’s resident trolls, anton and scorpion.

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 13:54 utc | 152

Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 12:24 utc | 151
—————–

China was at war for most of its history up to the European age of explorations,

China was at war for most of its history defending against the Turks, jing, HUns, Mongols, Manchu, Limey, jap, euro aggressions,
FIFY

China did not resist being colonized

How do you expect to get away with such bald faced lie ?
This is white culture of deceit. personified

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 14:11 utc | 153

Did Desmet really say that “the clutching to materialism and material rationalism has gone further down the road here in 2024” ???
When 2/3 of my neighbours and their dogs are looking for help to their anxiety in the hands of sects and gurus?

Posted by: Minaa | Jan 3 2024 14:21 utc | 154

The other day when there was discussion about Iran and Houtis sinking an American carrier in the Red Sea I wondered what that would do to fishing and tourism in the area. That came back again when I was reading about the Chinese 003 carrier Fujian. Still not a nuclear carrier …
Could the choice of nuclear be a poison pill for projected force far from home (you sink the invader you get your sea contaminated). And the opposite, a logical choice if you fear more a sinking near home?
Should this be seen in a larger logic with DU armor and shells?
As this is the OT thread I guess I’d like some opinions.
Thank you

Posted by: Newbie | Jan 3 2024 15:31 utc | 155

I suspect what impressed the RoW during Western Civilization’s height was not its cruel rapaciousness but its brilliant confidence as exemplified by the many pioneer types it encountered – which you call ‘Order’, its vision of how large societies could operate both efficiently and grandly. As you mentioned, the Japanese – not without their own grandeur and arrogance – saw something worth voluntarily adopting as their own.
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 2 2024 23:59 utc | 127
———————–
the whites benign colonisations, bringing civilisaiton, rule and order to the primitive injun, indians, abo, maori, african, sa, chinks, kooks, jap… eh?
HOw delusional !
Thats a typical ws narrative.
It might works at UNZ, How do you expect to get away with it here ?
Care to ask the ROW ?

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 16:17 utc | 156

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 6:01 utc | 142
It was the fully centralized nations in Asia, with autocratic efficient bureaucracies China and Japan, that resisted being colonized. The same for Russia. Japan was subjugated in World War 2, but Russia and China still remain as the unsubjugated. That’s why all the Western plans are to break up Russia, to make it more easily dominated by the West.

Thank you for so masterfully succinct a summation, though I note SG lower down has some excellent rebuttals. (Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 12:24 utc | 151)
I still think there is something to robinhood’s ‘Order’ but that was more of a living presence than overt policy so hard to evaluate today. I grew up in 1960’s London when the Empire culture still existed in the minds of many who didn’t realise it was already a walking corpse. In any case, I lived within the traditional British class system witnessing both fair and foul aspects though nowadays it is fashionable to portray everything only as corrupt.
I cannot do so. I always come back to the buildings and countryside in all European nations but especially England. There is too much beauty, peace, order tended to or made by human hands to call it all evil, though evil there surely was; also so much authentic humour and joy, too in Carroll, Dickens, Jerome, Wodehouse. It was not all bad; it never is, nor all good.
Humans are part demon part angel and our lives about learning how to foster good and reject bad. There is no beginning or end to such learning for we are like sailors on the Ocean of Experience, fated never to reach the shore of Journey’s End. Even mortality is merely a portal to the next unending passage, nothing more.
That said, the Empire’s thrust married the non-materialist spirit of the previous civilization with the decidedly materialist heft of the modern one which in the West has seemingly now run its course. Interesting times…

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 16:22 utc | 157

aje doesnt have a live for tge speech, any link?

Posted by: Minaa | Jan 3 2024 16:28 utc | 158

Thank you for so masterfully succinct a summation, though I note SG lower down has some excellent rebuttals. (Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 12:24 utc | 151)
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 16:22 utc | 157
—————
In case you havent noticed.
I just called out that bald faced liar.

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 16:38 utc | 159

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 3 2024 5:45 utc | 140
@ Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 2:10 utc | 144
the positive aspects – of corporate piracy, totalitarian tyranny, and outright theft?
Sorry. I got stuck right there and could not read on. 🙂 ……
Yes, please research it thoroughly and then come and tell us all about the positive aspects 🙂

You are being inflammatory as is your wont as well as arguing about something tangential to the original conversation.
Yes, though the British EIC was in India from the 1600s onwards as I mentioned (and no doubt the Portuguese earlier once the Mandarin Maritime Ban came into effect in the mid-1400s – a huge, overlooked geopolitical event btw whose effects are finally being corrected – this very week as it happens starting Monday January 1st – over five centuries later by BRICS+ including several key Middle Eastern States into their emerging Eurasian alliance now about to control the Red Sea and Suez Canal access), they didn’t conquer and rule all of India, which didn’t even exist as such, merely plundered some of it shamelessly.
When you do your reading, you need to avoid mistaking the necessary over-simplifications presented to provide coherent overviews for definitive reality. So I see your insult and raise you….
a shrug!
I haven’t been to India since the 80’s, but presume it is still similar to Mexico where I now live in that colonialism, despite its many faults, lives on in the architecture and social structure which the people have elected not to jettison despite being free to do so for a long time now. This evidences there was more to European Civilization than the cartoonish Bad Guy narrative now so fashionable and which far too many otherwise intelligent folks have been persuaded to parrot.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 17:01 utc | 160

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 17:01 utc | 160
———————
signatory scorpion, long and tedious twaddle which say nuthin !

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 17:24 utc | 161

Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 12:24 utc | 151
Horrific wars were not a peculiarity of Europe. Not at all. China was at war for most of its history up to the European age of explorations, India the same, the Middle East was the Middle East even back then and the Americas were a hotbed of petty wars. If anything Europe produced some of the most stable polities of the time.
It was the fully centralized nations in Asia, with autocratic efficient bureaucracies China and Japan, that resisted being colonized. The same for Russia. Japan was subjugated in World War 2, but Russia and China still remain as the unsubjugated.
China did not resist being colonized. It was conquered and brutalized multiple times, by Mongols, British and Japanese. The colonization of China caused the Boxer rebellion, which was swiftly suppressed. Russia is just the legacy of a land based European empire, not too different from the Austrian empire or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Am not sure I agree with all of your characterizations except insofar as they demonstrate how complex and multi-faceted is our world. An example:
Genghis Khan conquered first to unite the Mongols and then the entire civilized world; if he hadn’t died when about to defeat Hungary’s standing army he would have joined the entire Eurasian landmass under his system of Law which he regarded as his crowning contribution.
Two centuries later his progeny was eased out of the Emperorship and the Mandarins instituted ‘The Maritime Ban’ (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-5923.2008.00250.x “The Voyages of Zhen He: Ideology, State Power and Maritime Trade in Ming China”). Though forbidden, of course Maritime trade never stopped so a black market culture ensued. The resultant maritime power vacuum was soon filled by pirates, including Europeans thanks to the precise charts with accurate longitude and latitude He’s survey fleets had successfully mapped.
That administrative decision by the overly conservative (and racist) Mandarins changed world history. Instead of a Belt and Road civilization emerging in the 1400’s we are only now once again approaching that possibility. As of January 1st, BRICS includes several key Middle Eastern States which together can control Red Sea access to the Suez canal, the principal East-West portal for millennia, thus a huge geopolitical development finally correcting that initial Mandarin mistake from the 1430’s.
Am tempted to call this Maritime Ban one of the most influential policy decisions in world history but suspect there are dozens of other such candidates am not aware of because our history is so myopic and ill-informed.
And so it goes…

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 17:50 utc | 162

the prof of philosophistry declared he had blocked me,…
after losing every debate !
But I know he remains my avid fan cuz every now and then
he couldnt bear it and hit back.
[oh Im on my cellphone, or Im using another browser blah blah]
So He reads my post alright, but is playing dumb.
Novertheless, I’ll still comment on his posts, for the benefit
of the newbie

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 17:54 utc | 163

@ denk | Jan 3 2024 17:24 utc | 161
“long and tedious twaddle” – Funny and true!
Maybe Alchemist (| Jan 3 2024 12:16 utc | 3 Palestine SitRep thread) will
add LTT to his list of acronyms.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jan 3 2024 17:58 utc | 164

https://mailstar.net/book/Cosmopolitan_Empire_free.pdf
Peter has made his book available for free. It reviews the four major conspiracies driving much of the world’s power matrices. For those interested it’s well worth the effort, and now it is available as a pdf.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:14 utc | 165

His website is blocked by typepad, seemingly, so am providing a tinyurl link to Peter Myer’s book The Cosmopolitan Empire which overviews the four major conspiratorial power networks at play in the world the past few centuries. Now available as a free pdf because he wants people to get the information rather than waiting for years for sales to gradually accumulate.
http://tinyurl.com/ymd4oa9v
===================================
I see denk and waynegrow are commenting. There have been some interesting discussions and whenever that happens and I am involved they come along to provide cheap insult with petty-minded quips instead of any substance. To each his own. Luckily, I use that script which blocks their mean-spirited ad hominems from view. Ain’t technology grand!!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:21 utc | 166

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jan 3 2024 17:58 utc | 164
————————-
LTT, signature scorpion,
The prof would prolly continue the three monkies mode , dont think he relish another ko right now !

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 18:24 utc | 167

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:21 utc | 165
——————-
See !
I know the pop remains a fan despite
‘blocking’ me.
good nite, prof.
ps
hello waynorinorway
how about pop, [prof of philosophistry]
for the list ?
good nite

Posted by: denk | Jan 3 2024 18:33 utc | 168

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jan 3 2024 5:31 utc | 139
Thanks for your replies. I’ve made a few too many comments this AM and will retire for a while but just want to clarify that I’m not on either a pro or con crusade necessarily, rather have a tendency – perhaps what some here call an ideology – to assume that most individuals and societies are a mixed bag and it is too simplistic to describe them as all-Saint or all-Satan. Also generally I find that the way we discuss history – what the Kings and Generals did – is deeply misleading in that a civilization has so many layers and levels that most generalisations fall way short.
People freely attribute the rapacious cruelty of the East India Company and some of her mercenary operators to the entire British race, for example, which is like all other races or peoples – some combination of fair and foul and manipulatable into extremes of either.
Actually, I would love to better understand exactly how the British ruled India, how the various skeins of so many different people and languages in a generally Hindu culture with strong Muslim minority became sufficiently knit together for one administrative power to oversee them all. Maybe it was all down to greed, violence and racism like many say, but I find that hard to believe. Presumably there was some positive persuasion in the mix because that’s what motivates people.
Anyway…

Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:36 utc | 169

The US debt has increased by 1 trillion in 3 months.
One explanation is that the cost of war is higher than the benefit that can be extracted from the colonies. Perhaps the cost of the war in Ukraine is higher than the benefit of obliging Europe to buy US natural gas. Or the cost of maintaining Israel is no longer compensated by petrodollars buying Treasuries.
Spain faced this when the flow of silver from America stalled. Britain faced this when the money from India slowed down to a trickle.

Posted by: Passerby | Jan 3 2024 19:01 utc | 170

Posted by: suzan | Jan 3 2024 0:35 utc | 128
Thanks to you and Scorpion for transferring your conversation and Desmet (sp?) discussion over here. I did follow Scorpion’s link back to your link to the lecture, hadn’t heard of him before. I thought it was very good reminder of Gandhi’s idea to try to be truthful, and very much in line with the dialogue of Plato I have been going through, so forgive me for some thoughts on the latter.
World events currently have helped to change two opinions of mine on their emphases in The Republic. First, I changed my objection to Socrates eliminating segments of Homer’s poetry from his ‘city in speech’; and second I changed my objection to his analysis of democracy as far down the list of possible types of government. I will note that both these paths in the dialogue are undertaken by Socrates in partnership with Adeimantes, who has been offset by Glaucon throughout most of the dialogue. I’m now getting to the final chapter, chapter 10, and it is Glaucon who is addressing these two issues. It seemed by Chapter 9 everything about the perfect city and man had been concluded. Not so.
I will just say that for me to have changed my mind on these two matters is a personal milestone, techtonic even. From Aeschylus on (and this does affect my admiration for those plays) the reverberations are going to cause me to critique my own acceptance of even such ‘rocks of Gibraltar’ in my own educational experience.
And I think that’s a good thing.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 3 2024 19:44 utc | 171

…they come along to provide cheap insult with petty-minded quips instead of any substance.
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:21 utc | 166
– As if your continual LTT disparaging ‘materialism’ is substance. It’s not.
– You throw out as many insults as anyone so spare the ‘poor-me’ crap.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jan 3 2024 19:55 utc | 172

Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 12:24 utc | 151
China was substantially subjugated not colonized, they are two very different things. And as others have noted above China fought many civil wars and wars of defence but very few of conquest (except when ruled by the Mongol Emperors). Since the start of the Qing Dynasty of 1636, China had seen relatively little warfare until the British arrived with their opium. The previous Ming dynasty, established in 1368, had also seen little warfare until the civil war which destroyed it. Thus it is utterly different to the experience of Europe, to try to draw a parallel equivalence is utterly incorrect. The Boxer rebellion was against the actions of Western Christian priests, and was put down by the Chinese state. China was never colonized, it remained as an independent entity with its own social system and culture. The Boxer rebellion helped show the Europeans that they could not colonize China with their religion, as they did in both South America and Africa.
The history of the conquests of Central and South America is very clear, the conquistadors relied on large amounts of native soldiers to win. This has been very much obscured until more recent and careful scholarship that did not rely on the outlandish claims of the conquistadors. At the battle of Otumba against the Aztecs, which was basically a rearguard action as the Spanish attempted to escape, there were several hundred Spanish and a few thousand allied native warriors (Tlaxcalans). The Aztec numbers are open to question given the usual exaggerations of the Spanish, the short time to mobilize and the fact that it was the height of the agricultural season. The Aztecs had never fought against horses before, so had not developed tactics against them (as they did later) and that’s what allowed the Spaniards to get at the Aztec military officers. The battle of Cajmarca,”was actually the violent betrayal of ongoing diplomatic efforts between the Incas and Spaniards.” The unprepared ceremonial bodyguard and many other unarmed Aztecs were slaughtered and the military governor taken prisoner (he was not the leader of the Aztecs, that was his brother). Neither of these were major turning points, and later smallpox played a much bigger role (e.g. killing the Aztec Emperor).
https://sites.utexas.edu/llilas-benson-magazine/2019/08/20/reading-between-the-lines-at-cajamarca/
Malacca is in Malaysia not the Americas and it was a relatively small-scale affair. The siege of Diu was a very small-scale affair, again not in the Americas, where a fortress was successfully held for four months.
Eurocentrism has been a bane of the History profession until relatively recently, and it pervades sites such as Wikipedia. The history of the West is very different to the one still very much taught in Western schools, that is the nature of the creation of national myths.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 20:44 utc | 173

@Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:36 utc | 169
There is an excellent book on the East India Company, “The Anarchy: The East India Company, Corporate Violence, and the Pillage of an Empire” by William Dalrymple.
“It was not the British government that began seizing great chunks of India in the mid-eighteenth century, but a dangerously unregulated private company headquartered in one small office, five window wide, in London, and managed in India by a violent, utterly ruthless and intermittently unstable corporate predator – Clive.”
An excellent read for $10.
The Anarchy

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 20:54 utc | 174

@Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 17:50 utc | 162
The problem for the Chinese was that they were not an island-based power but were surrounded by land-based enemies and faced many challenges still from the northern tribes, who had many times invaded China, so the decision to end the very expensive seafaring missions may have been as much prudent as conservative. Britain did not have that issue. The Spanish and Portuguese South American empires were lost when Napoleon invaded the Iberian peninsular.
Why the alliance between Russia and China is so important, China does not have to worry about its northern and north-western borders. The exit of the West from Afghanistan and the new communist leader in Vietnam also aid this. The main border risk is currently the Myanmar civil war.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 21:01 utc | 175

A comment from Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism about the Hong Kong riots

Sorry, the US is not remotely that good. This is one of my big frustrations with Brian Berletic (in fairness, MoA was also on that bandwagon). He depicts any and every NED connection as proof of actual meddling, as opposed to NED successfully syphoning money out of State irrespective of whether it can actually accomplish anything.
We don’t even begin to have enough speakers of Cantonese with a Hong Kong accent. The West had absolutely NOTHING to do with all of those innovative protestor techniques, such as mass use of lasers, umbrellas, and using traffic cones to contain tear gas canisters. In fact, we would not want to see their widespread adoption. One must note despite those methods being shown repeatedly on video coverage of the protests, they have not been much taken up anywhere else.
On top of that, there was VERY deep societal support of the protests, again something beyond the reach of the West. Many accounts of protestors fleeing the cops running into nearby (often pretty poor) residential neighborhods, having residents whisk them into their houses, and then showing them how to continue to get away, via going on rooftops or through back yards to other streets.

I replied with respect to her assertion of not enough Cantonese speakers with a Hong Kong accent that the CIA would find more than enough in Markham, a suburb of Toronto and in Richmond British Columbia. That she would use such an easily debunked assertion is very troubling, as well as the ad hominem attacks on Brian Berletic and MOA. A good site for links but the authors seem very much blinded by Imperial propaganda in many ways. The comment about the NED is laughable!

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 22:16 utc | 176

@Roger | Jan 3 2024 22:16 utc | 176,
I wonder if your comment at NC gets posted. My impression about the moderation there is quite subjective a long time ago. As for NC, one may see the observations about it from some barflies here from time to time. Not sure if you saw those before.

Posted by: LuRenJia | Jan 3 2024 22:38 utc | 177

I’m pleased to announce an interview with Kazakhstan’s president Tokayev is now translated and published, “Interview of Kazakh President Tokayev by Kazakhstanskaya Pravda”, that was done earlier today. The interview is very wide-ranging and beneficial for those of us having only superficial knowledge of what’s happening there. Yes, the read is long but quite tasty.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 3 2024 22:44 utc | 178

@Posted by: LuRenJia | Jan 3 2024 22:38 utc | 177
It did get posted, after having numerous of my comments moderated out I have learnt the limit of what is allowed on the site. Yes, the moderation is very subjective as some barflies have previously noted.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 23:03 utc | 179

@Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 17:50 utc | 162

Genghis Khan conquered first to unite the Mongols and then the entire civilized world; if he hadn’t died when about to defeat Hungary’s standing army he would have joined the entire Eurasian landmass under his system of Law which he regarded as his crowning contribution.

Genghis Khan never came anywhere near to Europe. It was his grandson Batu that launched an offensive against Europe and actually engaged and defeated the Hungarian army, before returning to the valley of the Volga. However it is worth noting that Bela IV, king of Hungary, never conceded victory to the mongols and after their departure quickly rebuilt his kingdom and prepared it to repel a new invasion.
The idea that Batu gave in, because he had to attend the election of the new Khagan is just a conjecture. In fact Ögedei Khan died in December 1241, Batu left Europe in spring 1242, but the election of the new Khagan was held in 1246, so there is much more to it. Nobody really knows if Batu really wanted to invade Central Europe and nobody knows if he could actually be victorious.

Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 23:20 utc | 180

@Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 23:20 utc | 180
Subatai both planned and commanded the Mongol invasion of Eastern Europe, Batu reported to him. There were both geographic (more forest land and easily flooded land) and climate (1242 saw a switch from warm to colder and wetter weather that flooded much of the pasture lands), but the Mongols may have simply been exhausted by costly sieges of fortified cities and had achieved limited aims.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 3 2024 23:53 utc | 181

@Roger | Jan 3 2024 20:44 utc | 173

Eurocentrism has been a bane of the History profession until relatively recently, and it pervades sites such as Wikipedia.

Say no more. If you really think that Wokepedia offer a Eurocentric account of history, you have literally nothing else to say.
By the way:

https://sites.utexas.edu/llilas-benson-magazine/2019/08/20/reading-between-the-lines-at-cajamarca/

Nice work of fiction, but the plot is totally inconsistent. The author spends a plethora of words to convey the idea that Atahualpa’s capture at Cajamarca meant next to nothing because Atahuallpa was not the ruler, while Huascar was the ruler, the “acknowledged Inca who ruled in Cuzco”! Ha, ha, take that, stupid Eurocentricists! Then a plot twist that would put to shame Shyamalan, when the author barely mutters that Huascar, “the acknowledged Inca who ruled in Cuzco”, was actually not in Cuzco: he was in Cajamarca (!), prisoner of Atahuallpa (!!), who had defeated him and who was in turn prisoner of the Spaniards.
LOL
After that insignificant event, the Spaniards executed Atahualpa and installed a puppet king and the Incan empire was done. Woke history is really based on the ignorance of the reader: if you know nothing about the history of Spanish Empire, you may even believe it. Even though the plot is quite bad.

Posted by: SG | Jan 4 2024 0:10 utc | 182

@Posted by: SG | Jan 4 2024 0:10 utc | 182
You are utterly conflating two completely different things. Firstly the correction of the histories written by the imperial historians designed to enhance the standing of the Europeans as the civilizational supreme project by more recent, less elite genuflecting and careful historians, and “wokeness”. A sad attempt at attacking the messenger.
There are still many imperial apologists and civilizational supremacists writing history, such as Niall Ferguson and Anne Applebaum. There are also “woke” historians who misrepresent history to push identitarian explanations that lack underlying political-economic current, such as the deluded drive to make all early US history about racialized slavery. They all deserve our disrespect.
The historians who carefully and painstakingly search out a more balanced view of history from many sources deserve our respect, instead of childish name-calling. Wokeness is a product of bourgeois progressive thought unhindered by materialism, Wikipedia shows both wokeness AND an imperialist view of history. For a much better understanding we have to look to truly socialist and non-Western sources to balance the Western elite-serving baloney.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 4 2024 0:44 utc | 183

There items for my substack today: “Interview of Kazakh President Tokayev by Kazakhstanskaya Pravda”
https://karlof1.substack.com/p/interview-of-kazakh-president-tokayev
“Concept for the Further Development of the CIS: Strategy for the Economic Development of the CIS for the period up to 2030”
https://karlof1.substack.com/p/concept-for-the-further-development
And finally “Interview of Russian Central Bank CEO Elvira Nabiullina”
https://karlof1.substack.com/p/interview-of-russian-central-bank

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 4 2024 1:32 utc | 184

Roger | Jan 4 2024 0:44 utc | 183–
Wikipedia’s an odd site as some of its listings are great while some are disgusting. Lesson: It helps to know some basic info about the subject you’re seeking info about.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 4 2024 1:35 utc | 185

Looks like Biden has killed his own creation–The Quad–as he refuses to go to India for a Summit with its other three members as Global Times reports, “Quad faces wide question on value of existing after Biden not to visit India in January”, with the political cartoon at the header telling the reader what to expect. Like so many other anti-China initiatives that have arisen since 2010, this one will also sink beneath the waves which is where it belongs.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 4 2024 2:04 utc | 186

Please do not mention the slag Anne Applebaum in polite company. It’s traumatizing. She makes Cookie Nuland appear humanoid.

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 2:53 utc | 187

Begs the question…
Was it conceivable that the CIA/NSA had nuthin on the MH370 ‘disappearance’ ???
Posted by: denk | Jan 2 2024 4:56 utc | 89
——————
Apparently not.
Considering that THE entire Asiapac is under 24×7 surveillance, prolly even a fry couldnt move undetected.
The silence of FUKUSA aka AUKUS was deafening
Thats why Malaysia asked canberra for a peep into its satellite database
The reply was short and sharp,

No way, that’d endanger our NATIONAL SECURITY

NATIONAL SECURITY FOR US, NOT FOR YOU
Another signature western exceptionalism
Somebody has something to hide ?
Even the ‘authorative’ Aviation Week agreed
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/missing-malaysian-plane-why-is-australia-silent-on-secret-radar-data-185404-2014-03-19

Posted by: denk | Jan 4 2024 3:21 utc | 188

Luckily, I use that script which blocks their mean-spirited ad hominems from view. Ain’t technology grand!!
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:21 utc | 166
————–
LIke I say, inspite of ‘blocking’ me, the pop remains a secret admirer.
As for ad hominem
Really ?
All I ask was …
‘have you ever consulted with the Indians, for a start , about your benign coloniser claim..
pop

The ROW was enchanted with the western superior way of life, [law and order and all that jazz] they dont really bother with our occasional excess.

Since you didnt bother , I’ve done it for you,
Here’s Arundhati Roy

Exposing Western hypocrisy – how much more exposed can they be? Which decent human being on Earth harbours any illusions about it? These are people whose histories are spongy with the blood of others. Colonialism, apartheid, slavery, ethnic cleansing, germ warfare, chemical weapons – they virtually invented it all. They have plundered nations, snuffed out civilisations, exterminated entire populations. They stand on the world’s stage stark naked but entirely unembarrassed, because they know that they have more money, more food and bigger bombs than anybody else

PS
stop using that silly ‘ad hominem’ excuse.
You aint doing youself any credit, lying infront of the barflies

Posted by: denk | Jan 4 2024 3:58 utc | 189

@ Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 2:53 utc | 187
annie applepants.. what a depressing person.. i don’t know why i give her a name with the word apple in it.. i like apples, but i detest frauds and she is one of them..
@ denk | Jan 4 2024 3:58 utc | 189
i have always enjoyed your style.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Jan 4 2024 4:45 utc | 190

@ Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:36 utc | 169

People freely attribute the rapacious cruelty of the East India Company and some of her mercenary operators to the entire British race….

What people Scorpion? Please name them.
Imaginary people inside your mind do not count, OK? 🙂
My truth is the way you discuss history here is deeply misleading.
The supreme irony (for me) is when even when you admit lacking knowledge and credible insight that you need to “better understand exactly how the British ruled India…. became sufficiently knit together for one administrative power to oversee them all” you’re still happy to assert you “find that hard to believe it was all down to greed, violence and racism.”?
Why is it so impossible for you to simply say you do not know and the withhold judgement entirely? Until you actually know what you’re talking about!

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 4:50 utc | 191

Posted by: james | Jan 4 2024 4:45 utc | 190
——————
Welcome !
I try to be short and sharp, to the point.
Waves of long winding, meandering , poppycock flooding the bar gets at my nerve.
btw here’s CIA’s MIGHTY WURLITSER…
http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/prsp25.htm
sIGNing off ….

Posted by: denk | Jan 4 2024 5:04 utc | 192

“their mean-spirited ad hominems…….”
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 18:21 utc | 166
What a weak Pussy!
“You aint doing youself any credit, lying infront of the barflies”
Posted by: denk | Jan 4 2024 3:58 utc | 189
There’s the truth right there. I’m such a “meanie” 🙂

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 5:17 utc | 193

“You are being inflammatory,” scolded the Fire Breathing Dragon (FBD) with indignant haughty outrage.
as well as arguing about something tangential to the original conversation.”
Posted by: Scorpion | Jan 3 2024 17:01 utc | 160
Get stuffed FBD. You don’t get to tell me what I can discuss and not discuss. When I want to discuss the specific things you have posted here in Black Pixels for all to see, I will do so. 😛
(Snipped LTT and tendentious OFF-TOPIC non-Indian EIC excuse making sophistry irrelevant to my inspired and pointed Commentary exposing the spurious falsehoods of the FBD Scorpion)
(More snipping, and Blow Me hot stuff! )
“I haven’t been to India since the 80’s ….”
Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn!
You still do not zip about the place nor it’s history, even had you lived there for a 100 years! Haughty Ignorance is a permanent affliction for folks like yourself. This is abundantly clear given you never shut.
In fact you are a legend in your own cereal bowl!

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 5:35 utc | 194

You are completely missing my point. Societies with multiple cultures are typical of empires or kingdoms, which always were autocratic. Democracy developed in nation states. The neoliberal/neocon plan is to foster multiculturalism in the nation states to weaken their democratic fundations (sic).
Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 11:51 utc | 150
HI SG, ok well thanks for the reply, but from where I sit you have just confirmed I got your point 100% correct before . And I still totally disagree with it.
I said before which you quoted, but I will again Nor does it mean, or could it ever mean, that a societies implementation and acceptance and active participation in “multiculturalism” anywhere was some kind of top down enforced action or objective of an intentional “neoliberal/neocon dream.”
Your bold matches my bold prior comment.
So I totally disagree, and reject there exists, a nefarious “neoliberal/neocon plan is to foster multiculturalism in the nation states to weaken their democratic foundations”.
You will disagree, but I hope at least you see I totally understand your point – and then say it is false.
(not that it’s important or a big deal)

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 5:57 utc | 195

grrrrrrrr, I’m so sorry about the formatting error … I apologise.
Take Two-
You are completely missing my point. Societies with multiple cultures are typical of empires or kingdoms, which always were autocratic. Democracy developed in nation states. The neoliberal/neocon plan is to foster multiculturalism in the nation states to weaken their democratic fundations (sic).
Posted by: SG | Jan 3 2024 11:51 utc | 150
HI SG, thanks for the reply, you have just confirmed I got your point 100% correct before . And I still disagree with it.
I said before Nor does it mean, or could it ever mean, that a societies implementation and acceptance and active participation in “multiculturalism” anywhere was some kind of top down enforced action or objective of an intentional “neoliberal/neocon dream.”
Your bold point matches my opposite bold point. Yes?
So I totally disagree there exists, a nefarious “neoliberal/neocon plan is to foster multiculturalism in the nation states to weaken their democratic foundations”.
You will disagree, but I hope at least you see I totally understood your point. 🙂
(not that it’s important or a big deal to me)

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 6:02 utc | 196

WJS but only 6 mins and actually worth a watch. Interesting that they have adopted the Smart Shooter electronic track & trigger scope, which might also help drones to fire at ground targets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb5qMvie9sU

Inside the U.S. Military’s New Drone Warfare School | WSJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFF-GiktlT4

SMASH Tech for Ground, CUAS, and Maritime applications

Posted by: anon2020 | Jan 4 2024 8:35 utc | 197

@ anon2020 | Jan 4 2024 8:35 utc | 197

What is the US Military’s plan for sourcing the Gallium it needs for the GaAs transistors that power their drone countermeasures now that China has included Gallium in their “Catalogue of Technologies Prohibited and Restricted from Export”?

Posted by: too scents | Jan 4 2024 8:54 utc | 198

@Roger | Jan 4 2024 0:44 utc | 183

You are utterly conflating two completely different things. Firstly the correction of the histories written by the imperial historians designed to enhance the standing of the Europeans as the civilizational supreme project by more recent, less elite genuflecting and careful historians, and “wokeness”.

Of course a more balanced study of history is not “woke”, but oftentimes those who are influenced by woke ideas pretend to pursue a more balanced account of history, when they are not and they are just trying to be edgy and “novel”. On top of that, while European history is obviously written from a European point of view, it is traditionally the main source of world history for a number of good reasons: it is usually abundant, often with multiple accounts of the same facts, it is written by different kinds of people (clerics, merchants, soldiers, diplomatic envoys, historians by profession…), it is written for different purposes and with different mindsets, it is sometimes well written, that is there is a tradition of historiography that offers contexts, explanations and evaluations, non-European histories are as much as biased. Not to mention that, being so abundant, it usually reflects different viewpoints about what is the European civilization and so it is actually biased in different manners toward it: e.g. historians from the Enlightment era usually considered the role of Christianity in the European civilization differently, to put it mildly, than Medieval historians. As a consequence, when those edgy (let’s not call them “woke”, if that’s a problem) historians try to rely more on non-European sources, they rely more often than not on flimsy sources, that, by their context, their purpose, the factual understanding of the author etc., would be taken with a grain of salt if they were European.
Specifically, the author of the above-mentioned article, R. Alan Covey, writes in his own biography: “[b]y the end of the sixteenth century, the region [South America] had been utterly transformed by some of the same forces that shape our world today: epidemic disease, religious intolerance, and race-based inequality”. It was clear from his account of the capture of Atahualpa, that he was covering the uncertanties of the historical fact with “feelings” and “rebalancing”, even though those feelings and rebalancing match badly with the few ascertained facts: Atahualpa won the civil war against Huascar, Huascar was prisoner in Cajamarca, Atahualpa was in Cajamarca with his retinue when he was captured by the Spaniards, and, after that fact, the Incan empire ceased to exist as an organized force able to resist the Spanish conquest.
The fact that 162 Spanish adventurers dared to assault the ruler of an empire and all his dignitaries, while a force of a few thousands natives civil war veterans was around there is remarkable, no matter what you think actually happened. If the native force actually engaged the Spaniards, in what measure, or if they were demoralized and routed just by the fall of their leaders is actually secondary. They were defeated by their enemies’ prowess or boldness, or both. Europeans believed that the Incan forces engaged the Spaniards, at least partially, because that is what Europeans would do, not because they were Western elite-serving fraudsters: to them (Europeans of old) it was unconceivable to stay there and do nothing as the likes of prof. Alan Covey believe. And, frankly, the reasons adduced to justify the revisionist scenario (the retinues stood back, because they feared for the safety of their leaders; they stood back because they were too far away etc.) are quite weak.

@Lavrov’s Dog | Jan 4 2024 6:02 utc | 196
My gripe with your point is that it sounds like I said that multiculturalism is _always_ the result of some top-down enforced action. My point is that neoliberals/neocons are actively promoting multiculturalism for their own political aims and that without that active and disingenuous promotion it would not happen at the pace and intensity we are witnessing the so called West.

Posted by: SG | Jan 4 2024 10:16 utc | 199

Barflies!
Please share ideas/infos/analysis on these issues:
Who was or potentially was behind bombing in Kerman, Iran? Can it be related to recent killings of Razi Mousavi in Syria and Saleh Alorouri in Lebanon?
And, any ideas about Jefferey Epstein and his connection to arm dealing and Iran Contra?
Or about this: Samuel Pisar was the longtime lawyer and confidant of Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell. Pisar was the stepfather of Anthony Blinken (Blinkin).

Posted by: Sentience | Jan 4 2024 11:27 utc | 200