Only for news & views directly related to the war in Palestine.
The current open thread for other issues is here.
Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Back to Main
December 29, 2023
Palestine Open Thread 2023-321
Comments
Re: Breakdown of IDF ?
A week or so ago, Barflies had a conversation trying to estimate how long the IDF could function as a fighting force in Gaza. No consensus.
Over the last week – the signs of breakdown seem to have accelerated. For example, the withdrawal of the battered Golani Brigade, the sharp uptick in IDF KIA, the dramatic increase in attacks outside the Gaza Fence, and other tells.
What do Barflies think ?
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 15:59 utc | 1
Some “alternative” sites such as Southfront are repeating Israeli claims of KIA casualties only being less than 200. Yet, they do note that the genociders have lost many hundreds of vehicles. Somehow, there is a disconnect there. If a vehicle is destroyed, particularly armored personnel carriers, the proportion of KIA should have at least some vague relationship to the more than 5,000 wounded which they have admitted.
Then there’s the matter of PTSD cases. While the Hamas forces have already experienced life in hell, the Izzys are pampered and soft. The tough old Sabras are no longer a factor. Cradle to grave medical care…mostly provided by American taxpayers and by rich U$$A Jews who likely get tax write-offs for their donations to the Zionist regime…as well as free educations through the graduate levels, make for a mass of “chairborne” soldiers. In other words, there are very few MEN in the IDF. They rarely do physical work in their civilian lives. They simply cannot take it like those hardcore Palestinians in Gaza.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 29 2023 16:04 utc | 2
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 15:59 utc | 1
#################
For a society flirting with demographic collapse, every day this goes on is another nail in the coffin of the Apartheid state known as Israel.
I don’t like to see anyone dying in conflict. Some situations only seem to resolve with an armed conflict. I don’t think Ukraine was going to become friendly to their Russian people after the Maidan. That was always going to require a conflict of some sort to resolve.
Oh, and the other side in both conflicts are ideological and political creatures. We cannot expect rationality from fanatics.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 29 2023 16:05 utc | 3
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 15:59 utc | 1
i think they can function for some time as long as the US keeps funding them. winning, no. Israel has complete air control, controls the food and water, IDF has so many advantages despite poor training that it can last awhile.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 29 2023 16:05 utc | 4
I haven’t seen a full IDF kia list but it’s curious as to all the high ranks listed.
Is IDF a club where no low ranks (Lance corporal, corporal, etc.) exist?
Or are troops poorly trained so it takes higher ranking officers to push fireteams, squads, platoons into action?
Or are the higher ranks just chasing glory and underestimating their enemy?
Posted by: JustAVisiter | Dec 29 2023 16:20 utc | 5
@Exile #1
Chas Freeman
Up to 5,000 casualties! Economy suffering … Genocide and depopulation of Gaza the goal … and Ukraine … and a bit of Us politics ..
A useful discussion with a sane US diplomat – refreshing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58DptJJ8kQc 44mins Dialogue Works
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 16:24 utc | 6
A week or so ago, Barflies had a conversation trying to estimate how long the IDF could function as a fighting force in Gaza. No consensus.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 15:59 utc | 1
My earlier estimate of 2 – 3 more weeks still stands.
Accelerating factors:
– I had considered the probability that the IDF casualty rate would accelerate as wear and tear on machines, men and demoralization of the IDF and Izzraeli society increases as they realise the world is not on their side.
– Moreover, HAMAS will receive a constant stream of recruits as young men (and women?), witnessing their families being blown up by Jewish missiles, having nowhere to escape, “join the resistance”.
Two forces in particular (among many) act, one to wear down the fighting mindset of the IDF and the other to strengthen HAMAS as the war continues:
Sun Tzu said:
1.“The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.”.
The Zionist Jews have lost the Moral Law, the only unifying force keeping them fighting is the dogma of Zionism itself and the lifelong conditioning to view Palestinians as “untermenschen” to be slaughtered on sight.
On the other hand the Palestinians, and the majority of the world, clearly have the Moral Law on their side. There is no sense that their cause has violated the essential moral framework common and codified by the majority of human cultures.
2.When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.
The Zionist Jews have left no way out of Gaza, even for those who wish to leave. Neither by sea, nor by the crossings, nor by air. The population as a whole, old and young, male and female, warrior and farmer will realize very shortly there is no way out but to fight.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 29 2023 16:30 utc | 7
@ Exile | Dec 29 2023 15:59 utc | 1
this can go on like pretzelattack @ 4 says – for a possible long time if the usa and friends continue to green light it..
Posted by: james | Dec 29 2023 16:36 utc | 8
james@8….so they’ll fight Hamas to the last Apartheid Jew…..seems about right.
Cheers M
I don’t think they have that kind of time…..a large wad was blown on 404, I doubt the Deziofication of Palestine was on their radar, irony being like that.
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Dec 29 2023 16:46 utc | 9
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjygne00pa
US dragging it’s feet on Ah64.. not surprising if replacement rates are the new concern. No one cares about dumb bombs but actual weapons systems are collector’s items now, direct competition with Iran+Taiwan plans.
Guess we soon will see if Hezbollah was smarter than Hamas and purchased MANPADS. I am still drawing a blank why we have seen none in Gaza.
Posted by: SOS | Dec 29 2023 16:47 utc | 10
Possible data point:
A pro-IDF blogger posited that around March, the U.S. will run out of weapons to send. The blogger meant literally use up all stocks.
2-3 weeks ?
Arch, although there are plenty of tells that the iDF is going rapidly downhill as a fighting force. 2-3 weeks (aka End of January) might be too soon.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 16:49 utc | 11
The Gaza war lends fresh actuality to the eternal question: To what degree is Washington’s foreign policy hijacked by Jewish interest? Searching for an answer, using the 9/11 context for a change, I just came across a 5 year old piece in The Unz Review:
https://www.unz.com/article/911-was-an-israeli-job/
I always used to be very sceptical at the idea of an “Inside Job”, sharing this scepticism with Vladimir Putin, Robert Baer, Noam Chomski and The Unz Review. For it was a LIHOP plot, not an Inside Job. The advocates of the Inside Job theory used to point out details and inconsistencies in the official narrative, but failed to present a convincing, coherent story of their own.
My interest in 9/11 resurfaced only after
– I had seen a list of Jewish names who have shaped US foreign policy – Kissinger, Wolfowitz, Albright, Nuland, Kagan, Blinken, Soros, the Rothshilds.
– I decided to seriously consider the possibility that Jews are really the ones calling the shots in US foreign policy. Remember that in Germany, any such idea is tabooized as an anti-Semitic conspiration theory.
– I could no longer help noticing the similarity in handwriting of the 9/11 and October 7th events. Both are esssentially LIHOP, yet the amount of participation of the attacked country is extraordinary. In both cases, insider knowledge must have predated the events by a long time.
The article linked above is full of information. It focuses on human actors (like Benjamin Netanyahu) and their roles, connections and anecdotes, which makes for an enjoyable reading. It dismisses the 9/11 truther movement as counterproductive, quite in line with my own assessment.
However, what it says or suggests about the planes and piloting, appears far less convincing to me. An older article, from June 2011, is free of such shortcomings:
https://www.veteranstodayarchives.com/2011/06/27/demystifying-911-israel-tactics-mistake/
It takes a deep look into Israel‘s influence in US Congress, Senate, and White House staff, and the crucial leverage AIPAC has in selecting that staff. It also discusses, in a sensible way, the planting of explosives in the towers. It convincingly makes the point that only Mossad could have possessed the know-how and resources on the ground that were needed to orchestrate the demolition of the three WTC buildings.
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 29 2023 16:50 utc | 12
….. US dragging it’s feet on Ah64……..
During the Iraq invasion, the Iraqi’s set up some sort of trap for a swarm of Apaches. Don’t recall the exact details, but they lured the Apache swarm to fly low over a particular area. Beaucoup RPGs were fired from rooftops. I think 20 Apache’s were damaged or worse.
Result – all Apaches grounded for rest of invasion.
( appreciate correction and/or detail)
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 16:53 utc | 13
Up to 5,000 casualties! Economy suffering … Genocide and depopulation of Gaza the goal … and Ukraine … and a bit of Us politics ..
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 16:24 utc | 6
5000 – 8000 was the casualty number I offered about 2 weeks ago.
A few tests:
– There is no way a single vehicle neutralized in an attack by RPG yields only one casualty.: Estimate 4 – 7 depending on load.
– IDF soldiers do not simply shrug off a strike on a room by an RPG. They are not walking around solo either.: Estimate 4 -7 for each rpg strike on a building on average.
Continuing with this information:
– We can easily count in the range of about 200 IDF vehicles being struck by RPG. These are certainly followed by mop up operations or follow up attacks for each vehicle. So these strikes yield multiple ensured casualties. Not even talking about attacks on rescue crews!
– We can easily count in the range of 100 rpg strikes on IDF squads in buildings.
Conservative Minimum:
200 x 4 + 100 * 4 = 1200 “hard” casualties
Conservative Maximum:
200 x 7 + 100 * 7 = 2100 “hard” casualties
– These are just RPG strikes on buildings and vehicles.
– These exclude wounding and trauma which affect the effectiveness of IDF soldiers and require medical attention soon.
Assumption: Kills due to direct confrontation (shootouts, sniping) are at least equal to the rpg casualties:
Conservative Minimum:
200 x 4 + 100 * 4 = 1200 + 1200 = 2400 “hard” casualties
Conservative Maximum:
200 x 7 + 100 * 7 = 2100 + 2100 = 4200 “hard” casualties
Assumption: Around 50 booby trap and landmine events. IDF squads of 4 – 7 hit by booby traps and landmines:
Conservative Minimum:
200 x 4 + 100 * 4 = 1200 + 1200 + 200 = 2600 “hard” casualties
Conservative Maximum:
200 x 7 + 100 * 7 = 2100 + 2100 + 350 = 4550 “hard” casualties
So, very conservatively IDF “hard” casualties could range between 2600 – 4550.
Then there’s the bunch dying from friendly fire events, which we are told may be around 10% – 20% of the losses:
Conservative Minimum: 3100
Conservative Maximum: 5450
…and then there’s casualties due to illness including weird fungal diseases, allergies and bizarre hereditary ailments the Ashkenazim seem to be so prone to.
So we’re looking at a minimum of 3100 neutralized and a conservative high of well over 5000.
I would also say that for every “hard” casualty you have at least 2 soldiers so seriously affected by the concussive or shrapnel impact that their effectiveness in the field will begin to degrade drastically from that point onward.
About now well over 10 000 IDF are undergoing severe trauma on the battlefield. One slip up, one unlucky step and they’re candidates for conversion to “hard casualty” status …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 29 2023 16:58 utc | 14
In a lot of vids you can see helis hovering and picking targets. If I recall correctly even back in the 70ies survival times were estimated in seconds to minutes.
Guess now Israel wants them for the north, a single squad is not going to cut it.
With no air superiority and drones/missiles trench warfare looks like a really bad option. IDF on 6 fronts with no strategic or even tactical depth is certain disaster. I would love to see what IDF plans say about this idea..duck and cover?
Any logistics planning besides American ammo dumps? Any production, import through three ports in Shahed range?
Looks to me like provoking everyone to full war to force US intervention is the most promising plan they have.
US boits after Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan is unlikely and more so by the day
Posted by: SOS | Dec 29 2023 17:04 utc | 15
Pepe Escobar asks this question at his Telegram today:
WHY?
Extremely fair question – being asked by a lot of very well informed people across the spectrum:
Why has no BRICS member – or any other pro-multipolarity nation – invoked the Genocide Convention at the UN and triggered action by the ICJ?
Yes, most certainly a “fair question” to which I have no answer.
@ sean the leprechaun | Dec 29 2023 16:46 utc | 9
well, lets see how it goes.. patience! remember all the speculation about the length of time on the ukraine war and how wrong many were?
Posted by: james | Dec 29 2023 17:08 utc | 17
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 29 2023 16:50 utc
I agree that the Israeli operatives were involved in the 911 events but I disagree with the whole “let it happen” meme on behalf of US intel–they had to be involved. To keep it short if building 9 was not hit by a plane how did it manage a feefall not to different than the WTC 1 and 2? Check out the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth website for accurate information. If you read the NIST reports then you cannot possibly believe the official version of events.
As a former denizen of Washington DC I can certify to you that the US intel community is deeply folded into Israeli intel and has been for decades. Many of the officers in various intel agencies are Israel-first Jews who regard Muslims as vermin. I had a discussion with several of these types a few years ago who argued vehemently that Arabs and Iranians had “no culture” which got very heated when I objected to this BS. Most Israelis believe they are the “shining city on the hill” etc. etc.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Dec 29 2023 17:09 utc | 18
Exile | Dec 29 2023 16:53 utc | 13
AH 64 like F-16 and M-1 tank is an aging weapon system. Likely rough on repair assets and hard to keep running in harsh duty environment.
Maybe pentagon cannot find a group of contractors to go fix them in the field in Gaza. Or the spare parts kit to keep them operating.
Expeditionary logistics seems a challenge for the US
Posted by: paddy | Dec 29 2023 17:11 utc | 19
…… Maybe pentagon cannot find a group of contractors to go fix them in the field in Gaza. …….
Paddy – you win this thread. So much to unpack in that little quip
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 17:17 utc | 20
Not sure a numbers or timeframe. Israel attempted again today to hit Damascus & fires into Lebanon.
So, very obviously wants and needs to widen war to keep fighting, and drag others in. Not unlike Ze… Nuttyahoo never wants it to end.
But, perhaps we will see more of this soon:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/12/29/ynol-d29.html
“Israeli military refuser sentenced to prison after exposing lies behind Gaza genocide”
“Tal Mitnick, an 18-year-old conscript to the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), refused to serve and was sentenced to a 30-day prison term. Mitnick is one of ***hundreds of Israeli teenagers ***who have refused military enlistment this year to protest the Palestinian occupation. His refusal became a lightning rod in Israeli politics because of his sentence and the sharply worded political statement he published on social media, tearing down the arguments of the defenders of genocidE”
He made video and posted on X… included in article.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 17:18 utc | 21
The palestinians will be eliminated from Israel and sent to the West.
They can be your problem since you love the so much.
heheheh
Posted by: Lion Of Judea | Dec 29 2023 17:27 utc | 22
@Arch Bungle | Dec 29 2023 16:58 utc | 14
Plausible. Certainly far in excess of the minimalist Israeli reported figures.
And it isn’t over yet.
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 17:29 utc | 23
RE: “Yes, most certainly a “fair question” to which I have no answer.”
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 29 2023 17:05 utc | 16
Agreed. Filing by South Africa took place 12/18:
Awaiting for response period b4 going to UN??
Lame, but all I could think of.
https://iafrica.com/sa-submits-all-the-relevant-documentation-icc-to-lay-a-complaint-against-israel/
“SA Submits All The Relevant Documentation ICC to Lay a Complaint Against Israel”
December 18, 2023NEWS, South Africa1 min read
President Cyril Ramaphosa stated that South Africa has submitted all necessary evidence to the International Criminal Court (ICC) in order to file a complaint against Israel.
This is in reference to the ongoing conflict in Gaza, which has killed nearly 20,000 Palestinians and at least 1,200 Israelis in the last two months.
Last month, Ramaphosa said that South Africa has joined a group of countries calling for the International Criminal Court to probe Israel for war crimes.
ANC Secretary General Fikile Mbalula has previously called on the International Criminal Court (ICC) to treat Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the same way that it treated Russian President Vladimir Putin during Russia’s war with Ukraine.
Ramaphosa asked the ICC for greater urgency.
“Once a case is referred to them, they must take it seriously.” As a result, South Africa, along with a number of other countries, are submitting comprehensive documentation to the ICC.”
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 17:34 utc | 24
SOS @1647
No manpads? Less than an hour ago, on a pro-Palestinian site, the presenter noted that an Israeli helicopter had been taken down by a SAM-19. Questions arise. Had Hamas been holding back on such a weapon…or are the tunnel networks into Egypt smuggling some in?
This brings into consideration the unseen hand of the Sisi government in Cairo. Could they be quietly allowing a few of these into besieged Gaza in order to toss a few tidbits to the Arab street in order to keep them from boiling over and crushing his accommodationist regime?
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 29 2023 17:37 utc | 26
And it isn’t over yet.
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 17:29 utc | 23
I haven’t included the count for IDF soldiers who will require diapers for the rest of their lives due to PTSD. The “walking wounded”.
Not only will that cohort contribute to making Izzraeli society an even more mentally traumatized and unhinged environment (if this is at all possible) but they’re going to be a pleasure to integrate back into the workforce.
This is just the “Gaza Meatgrinder”. What if there’s a Lebanon and Syria meat-grinder to follow?
The IDF is not going to have much left over at the end of this no matter how Gaza turns out.
Reminds me of the African Savannah: An animal has to pick his fights carefully, because even if he wins, his wounds and loss of energy will leave him vulnerable to other predators waiting in the shadows …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 29 2023 17:37 utc | 27
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 29 2023 17:37 utc | 26
Hamas demonstrated an apparently indigenous SAM in the beginning of the war – the Mutabar 1. Not sure if it was effective.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 29 2023 17:42 utc | 28
CODE PINK has petition for UN Convention ICJ … needs 25,000 has 22,300 ish:
Here’s link:
https://www.codepink.org/icj
“Urge members of the United Nations to invoke the Genocide Convention at the International Court of Justice to charge Israel with the crime of genocide in Gaza.
Sign our petition below to UN ambassadors and embassy staff from Algeria, the Palestinian Authority, Pakistan, South Africa, Turkey and other countries and UN parties expressing outrage at Israel’s bombardment of 2.3 million imprisoned Gazans.”
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 17:42 utc | 29
Arch Bungle @1658
Those estimates may be rather on the conservative side. The pro-Palestine site I accessed this morning indicated that Israeli hospitals have admitted having treated 10,000 wounded. The site doubled that figure. Incredible, but possible. If the wounded figures are anywhere near correct, KIA’s by now should be in the range of 2,000 and counting. PTSD cases on the part of those IOF softies may have skyrocketed into the Ionosphere.
Another accessed site featured the brother of one of the unreported KIA’s who was lambasting Nuts n’ Yahoos over the status of his brother. Indication here is that before long, the pissed-off mourners will become the lever which overthrows the narrative and consequently the entire governmental and military apparatus.
Nutsy’s best move would be to travel to the U$$A and beg for political asylum. Otherwise, he’s either dead meat on the street or will face trial and be kept in solitary for the rest of his miserable existence.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 29 2023 17:48 utc | 30
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 29 2023 17:05 utc | 16
[Pepe:] Why has no BRICS member – or any other pro-multipolarity nation – invoked the Genocide Convention at the UN and triggered action by the ICJ?
Yes, most certainly a “fair question” to which I have no answer.
Whatever it is, it no doubt involves why RF and China never call out neocons, Jewish financial networks or Israel. No, it’s always Anglo-Saxons, Anglo-Saxons, Anglo-Saxons – blatant racism on their part which also conveniently provides cover for the significant Jewish quotient in the corrupt Western leadership class.
This sort of behaviour – out in the open for all to see – lends credence to my notion that some sort of Deal has been done between the ZioCon-WEF-UN-Globalists and the Multipolarists. First comes the now underway geopolitical bifurcation into West vs The Rest (which the recent blockage of critical Red Sea trading routes just so happens to further). After bifurcation is accomplished (next 1-3 years?) then the next phase will emerge.
In any case, if I’m right, this means both that multipolarism may not be as benign as its cracked up to be – and which so many well-meaning people are hoping for – and your ‘Outlaw US Empire’ not the only Serpent in the Garden.
SOS@ 1704
Awaiting confirmation on it, but caught a report that a Hezbollah missile had erupted into Haifa. This looks to be a considerable shot across the bow…a warning message. The oil and petroleum facilities in Haifa have yet to be targeted. That would be severious escalation, in that those tanks and refineries, to say nothing much about port facilities happen to be about it for the Talmudist regime.
Have no idea how Nuts n’ Yahoo’s regime will react, as either course of action could readily lead to a lose-lose upshot. Further retribution by the Zionistas would automatically result in a Hez counter-measure. If the extremist regime does not respond, they will lose considerable face amongst the population.
Full on missile assault on Haifa would effectually ground the aerial assaults in a short time…as well as all the motorized traffic in Gaza. At that point, the nutcases might go all Samson.
Interesting times indeed.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 29 2023 17:58 utc | 32
UNSC open and televised now.
What the point is, is unknown.
Just an FYI.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbGgQIGqBI&pp=ygUFVW5zYyA%3D
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 17:58 utc | 33
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 29 2023 17:05 utc | 16
Yes, I question that has puzzled, also, since Craig Murray posted the suggestion a couple of months ago on his site. I posted the link to the article on MOA at the time, but no one seemed to notice at MOA or anywhere else then.
It is very puzzling that not a single attempt has been made. Murray gave cogent reasons for why it should have been tried.
Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 29 2023 18:04 utc | 34
The referral by South Africa is to the (thoroughly useless) ICC and is not for genocide.
Craig Murray says / believes:
Charges under Genocide Convention are laid on a state and referred to ICJ. Then the ICC decides who is responsible for the Genocide.
The problem is that this is a “nuclear” option. Any state that does so will face serious consequences and (imho since this is Israel + US we’re talking about, leader assassinations can’t be ruled out either, never mind banal things like being invaded or sanctioned).
The evidence is so clear says Murray that it will be impossible not to implicate Israeli and US leaders.
If we look at the Rohingya case, it was invoked by the powerhouse of Gambia.
(I’ve always been suspicious of the Rohingya allegations of genocide because the US/UK were very upset that puppet Au Sang Suu Kyi had been removed so that was their way of slapping down the Myanmar government).
Well that’s his theory.
The 2024 ICJ ruling on the legality of Israeli forever occupation will demonstrate whether ICJ is credible.
Posted by: Pq | Dec 29 2023 18:04 utc | 35
Arch @1742
Looks as if Hamas has either upgraded its A.A. missiles or is smuggling in better material.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 29 2023 18:08 utc | 36
Yes, I question that has puzzled, also, since Craig Murray posted the suggestion a couple of months ago on his site. I posted the link to the article on MOA at the time, but no one seemed to notice at MOA or anywhere else then.
It is very puzzling that not a single attempt has been made. Murray gave cogent reasons for why it should have been tried.
Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 29 2023 18:04 utc | 34
===============
Didn’t you post something on this just a few weeks ago?
I noticed it!
But now I can’t find it and cannot find the link to the story.
I can’t recall the arguments or reasons give, but they made sense.
I think it was Murray talking one-on-one on the sidelines to participants at some kind of international conference, and they explained the pressures on them against invoking the genocide article.
Can you post that again, please? Thanks!
Posted by: Jane | Dec 29 2023 18:08 utc | 37
Hamas demonstrated an apparently indigenous SAM in the beginning of the war – the Mutabar 1. Not sure if it was effective.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 29 2023 17:42 utc | 28
Just guessing .. but couldn’t an RPG be modified to serve as a MANPAD? The armour piercing warhead could be replaced with a lighter anti-personnel warhead. If an RPG can hit a tank within range then it can hit a low-flying aircraft.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Dec 29 2023 18:10 utc | 38
RE: Posted by: Pq | Dec 29 2023 18:04 utc | 35
I see. Thought as much, but that clarity was helpful.
IMO, it’s all paperwork optics and will resolve nothing.
Same as all these UNSC meetings. Guess time will tell.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 18:13 utc | 39
what happened to air defenses in Syria / Lebanon etc?
No one able to lend a few stingers to the boys in G@za?
—
Make Israel Gaza Again
Posted by: MIGA | Dec 29 2023 18:14 utc | 40
“SA Submits All The Relevant Documentation ICC to Lay a Complaint Against Israel”
the ICC is a kangaroo court run by white people paid by S0ros. About as useful as a letter to editor of NYT.
the key is to raise a complaint of genocide at the UN. Once that happens, parties complicit in funding and arming the culprit (ie the entire elected political class of US/UK/Germany) become liable to arrest when traveling outside NATOstan.
—
Make Israel Gaza Again
Posted by: MIGA | Dec 29 2023 18:22 utc | 41
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 29 2023 16:50 utc | 12
9/11= false flag, not LIHOP. Big difference.
Christopher Bollyn did excellent work even before there was a “truth” movement drawing the connections between the players, all linking back to Israel and American Zionists (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney etc.)
About planes at least in New York, there is no evidence of planes outside of TV. A plane cannot fly “completely inside” a building leaving a plane shaped hole lol
A real plane will break on impact with a solid object.
Beyond this 9/11 fact, it’s all conjecture.
The truth movement was completely compromised by controlled opposition babbling about useless stuff.
However if someone produces video of the second plane hitting the tower and breaking on impact, I will reconsider.
Rare image of plane meets building and doesn’t explode. (All other plane meets building has a huge explosion like El Al 1992 Amsterdam)
https://www.airlineratings.com/news/least-seven-dead-jet-hits-building/
Once it’s clear that at least 2/4 planes didn’t exist the whole thing falls apart.
Posted by: Pq | Dec 29 2023 18:26 utc | 42
Rpgs can target low flying slow moving aircraft like transport choppers but the IDF do use appropriate approach vectors. It’s not exactly easy to hit a fast moving target with a short ranged dumbfire rocket and the assets would have to be prepositioned to have any chance. The window of opportunity will be seconds.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Dec 29 2023 18:31 utc | 43
RE: “In any case, if I’m right, this means both that multipolarism may not be as benign as its cracked up to be – and which so many well-meaning people are hoping for – and your ‘Outlaw US Empire’ not the only Serpent in the Garden.”
Posted by: Scorpion | Dec 29 2023 17:57 utc | 31
Agreed. Others are suspicious as well. Currently, there is no “evidence” AGAINST this theory.
If could also be a sincere move to Sovereignty’s. But trying to unwind empire in a fashion that doesn’t collapse all nations and result in instant poverty and famines for most underdeveloped nations. If that’s the case, you have to pick your battles, and right now “Anglo” head of snake first??
That’s the other “theory” atm… Honestly, atm, more evidence is pointing to WEF global control than not IMO.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 18:32 utc | 44
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 29 2023 16:50 utc | 12
Read this.
https://archive.org/stream/MichaelCollinsPiperFalseFlagsTemplateForTerror/Michael%20Collins%20Piper%20False%20Flags%20Template%20for%20Terror_djvu.txt
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 29 2023 18:40 utc | 45
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 17:58 utc | 33
UNSC on West Bank. Since anything Gaza is vetoed, UAE now trying for West Bank resolution. Hamas veto excuse doesn’t exist there.
Posted by: Pq | Dec 29 2023 18:43 utc | 46
A large airline plane might break or disintegrate when striking a reinforced can concrete structure with relatively little fenestration. But the WTC was a mostly glass faced building and the planes were traveling very fast and bringing great momentum. Nothing unbelievable about the strikes. It’s everything before and after that’s suspicious.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 29 2023 18:45 utc | 47
I want to talk to the WHY question that Pepe/karlof1 has raised about why our species is not standing up to the obvious genocide.
I have written here for many years that humanity is in a civilization war about public/private finance and private finance still remains the core element in the Western form of social organization along with private property and unfettered inheritance that include organizations like Pope Frank and the boys.
What we are watching in Occupied Palestine is a proxy war about monotheism associated with barbaric patriarchy which has been dominant in the West for 2K+ years. The West form of social organization does not reflect female energy in balance with male energy and instead seems to be skewed toward aggressive male dominance that China’s Confucius thought and Russian orthodoxy somehow keep restrained…..but that dominant male energy is there in our species currently.
Back to the WHY
Why can’t and don’t our species communicate openly about our forms of social organization?
Why are the behind the curtain leaders of the Western form of social organization hidden from the public?
Why are us humans surprised that the reality of our social order is a hubristic Hollywood joke led by all the humanistically corrupt leadership on one side and on the other side what leadership has evolved to stand up to the devil of our species, but which may not be the idealistic leadership we dream our species capable of.
I think it was Pogo….We have met the enemy and it is us.
We get the sort of society we demand of ourselves and each other……Happy New Year brothers and sisters!!!
Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 29 2023 18:51 utc | 48
Re: Haifa
if Hezbollah has started to strike the refinery-chemical south of Haifa, then Hezbollah is all in. (And the IDF will run out of fuel within a couple of weeks)
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 18:55 utc | 49
Bravo South Africa!
On 29 December 2023, the Republic of South Africa instituted proceedings against the State of Israel before the Court concerning alleged violations by Israel of its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in relation to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and requested the ICJ to indicate provisional measures.
This is from the website of the International Court of Justice, so it is official.
Press release:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231229-pre-01-00-en.pdf
Full application:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
Posted by: JB | Dec 29 2023 19:00 utc | 50
South Afruc files genocide charges against Israel at ICJ
Excerpt…,,,,South Africa filed a case against Israel for alleged violations of the Genocide Convention at the International Court of Justice on Friday.
According to the application submitted by South Africa, “acts and omissions by Israel… are genocidal in character, as they are committed with the requisite specific intent… to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a part of the broader Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group”.
It adds that “the conduct of Israel- through its State organs, State agents, and other persons and entities acting on its instructions or under its direction, control or influence- in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, is in violation of its obligations under the Genocide Convention”.
According to the application, since 7 October, Israel has “failed to prevent genocide and has failed to prosecute the direct and public incitement to genocide”.…..,
https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/breaking-south-africa-accuses-israel-genocide-convention-violations?nid=326631&topic=Israel-Palestine%2520war&fid=495756
Comment- the ICJ is a real court. It’s where states sue each other. This is very very big
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 19:03 utc | 51
Posted by: Jane | Dec 29 2023 18:08 utc | 37
Murray’s article on the genocide convention
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/11/activating-the-genocide-convention/
Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 29 2023 19:04 utc | 52
, Israel has “failed to prevent genocide and has failed to prosecute the direct and public incitement to genocide”.
===========
Barflies – South Africa in this sentence is invoking the Yamashita Doctrine of Command Respondibility ( which I’ve been blathering about for months) its big really big
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 19:05 utc | 53
Here’s the Craig Murray genocide law posting:
Craig Murray -Stopping Genocide
Posted by: JulianJ | Dec 29 2023 19:06 utc | 54
” Bravo South Africa!
Posted by: JB | Dec 29 2023 19:00 utc | 50 ”
Shame on the rest of the world, especially, China and Russia.
Posted by: Moonie | Dec 29 2023 19:31 utc | 55
….. US dragging it’s feet on Ah64……..
Result – all Apaches grounded for rest of invasion.
( appreciate correction and/or detail)
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 16:53 utc | 13
Nopes, there might be, even today, debate but they continued and corrected operations.
you might want to read
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 29 2023 19:32 utc | 56
Russia says Palestinian state within 1967 borders only way to lasting peace:
“it is important to work already now on the restoration of the political horizon in the process of the Palestinian-Israeli settlement on generally recognized basis of international law, which envisages the establishment of an independent Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and a capital in East Jerusalem co-existing in peace and security with Israel.Only such a balanced, unbiased and international law-based approach…can lead to a lasting peace in the Middle East,” he (Vasily Nebenzya) said at a UN Security Council meeting.
https://tass.com/politics/1728077
Posted by: JB | Dec 29 2023 19:32 utc | 57
” I want to talk to the WHY question that Pepe/karlof1 has raised about why our species is not standing up to the obvious genocide.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 29 2023 18:51 utc | 48 ”
Lets be honest, if it was any other country besides Israel and the US, the world would be up in arms about Gaza. It should be pretty obvious who the world fears, The question is why ?
Posted by: Moonie | Dec 29 2023 19:35 utc | 58
I hate to admit it, but I think Israel will ethnically cleanse Gaza. They have simply overwhelming firepower and can pulverize Gaza and drive the population into the desert or sea. They have crossed a line and will go full genocide to achieve their aims. There will be hardly a whimper from the cowardly West. No matter how brave and skilled Hamas, they cannot hold out forever. I pray I am wrong.
Posted by: Waesfjord | Dec 29 2023 19:41 utc | 59
Newbie,
Thank for the link.
Although it downplays the debacle – 32 gunships attacked with primitive weapons: 1 shot down, plus ( as I recall) another ~20 hit….. some put out of action for weeks.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 19:42 utc | 60
Newbie,
Thank for the link.
Although it downplays the debacle – 32 gunships attacked with primitive weapons: 1 shot down, plus ( as I recall) another ~20 hit….. some put out of action for weeks.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 19:42 utc | 60
You asked for any corrections on your assumption of landed apaches.
You have a lot of detail on the link, not only about the failure itself, but also about later usages of apaches and discussions about their survivability (and even dust problems that probably apply to israel as well).
Didn’t care if the article bothered to assess the full screw-up.
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 29 2023 19:47 utc | 61
Clare Daly, in less than 90 seconds, puts the boot in to “Frau Genocide”
Irish MEP Clare Daly Brands EU Commission Head Ursula a ‘Frau Genocide’ | Dawn News English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOfgVLqDIWg
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 19:47 utc | 62
Re: manpads
They are coming from Zelensky or disgruntled IDF reselling them.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 19:50 utc | 63
RE: https://tass.com/politics/1728077
Posted by: JB | Dec 29 2023 19:32 utc | 57
Yep, more yaking at UNSC about the “1967” smack time wasting dribble about 2 states that we’ve heard since…1967!
Russia should have just said: “I’m for whatever Israel wants” and just shut up after that. It would at least of been honest. Unless an international army removes Israel from any and all occupied territory it now claims… there will never be 2 states.
It’s just simply time to let the last man stand put the flag in the ground & that’s it.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 19:51 utc | 64
Wow! Check this out, Lavrov says that Russia and Israel are on the same side in their respective wars in the Ukraine and Gaza.
https://www.rt.com/russia/589831-lavrov-israeli-gaza-hypocrisy/
I wonder how you read /understand this????
Posted by: swiss | Dec 29 2023 19:55 utc | 65
Moscow is trying to position itself as a honest broker. Moscow knows the Likud is paranoid and prickly – hence the nice language.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 20:05 utc | 66
Irish MEP Clare Daly Brands EU Commission Head Ursula a ‘Frau Genocide’ | Dawn News English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOfgVLqDIWg
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 19:47 utc | 62
================
Go, Clare!
Posted by: Jane | Dec 29 2023 20:09 utc | 67
The question is why ?
Posted by: Moonie | Dec 29 2023 19:35 utc | 58
Big predator bites.
Look at what it did to Germany – a so-called ally!
Big predator’s little brother.
Throws a lot of very damaging shite around if it doesn’t like you. Can also call in support of Big predator.
On the positive side Big ‘isolated’ predators have a shelf life …. Run, little brother, Run … now you are ‘prey’ ..
Posted by: Don Firineach | Dec 29 2023 20:10 utc | 68
RE: Posted by: JB | Dec 29 2023 19:00 utc | 50
Posted by: Moonie | Dec 29 2023 19:31 utc | 55
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 19:03 utc | 51
I wasn’t sure if you noticed (cuz I hadn’t) there is a “timeframe”
Anyone who engages in “direct and public incitement” to genocide or conspiracy to commit it must be brought to justice, the appeal insists. ****South Africa demanded Israel submit a report on complying with all these demands within one week.***
Under the ICJ’s rules, ****South Africa’s application has priority over all other cases, because of the request for provisional measures.****
It’s sort of a bad look that “Holocaust “ screamers are now being accused, via ICJ of Genocide.
Naturally, Israel will scream “antisemitism” and not respond or change a thing, but at least down the road, South Africa and a couple of other Nations have it on record they tried to stop Hitler 2.0 from global carnage.
One other note: Did it not seem eerie that “Pepe” sent that tweet, particularly aiming at a BRICS member… then a BRICS member filed?? Is that too…twilight zone? Probably just me. I know a UN Convention wasn’t called, but still, kinda close.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 20:12 utc | 69
Newbie,
Question – how long before the IDF ground forces in Gaza breakdown completely ? You are military man – what do you think ?
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 20:15 utc | 70
karlof1 #16
I’m not suggesting there is merit, but no BRICS nation has invoked the genocide convention to prevent the embarrassing precedent of the same the genocide convention applied to Russia.
Posted by: Willow | Dec 29 2023 20:26 utc | 71
the embarrassing precedent of the same the genocide convention applied to Russia.
Posted by: Willow | Dec 29 2023 20:26 utc | 71
============
Why? What has Russia done?
Does someone want to say that the SMO is genocide?
If so, it sure seems like Zelensky would be in the cross hairs, not Russia.
Posted by: Jane | Dec 29 2023 20:29 utc | 72
RE: .” No matter how brave and skilled Hamas, they cannot hold out forever. I pray I am wrong.”
Posted by: Waesfjord | Dec 29 2023 19:41 utc | 59
I don’t think you’re wrong. I only know that Hezbollah promised they would not allow Hamas/Gaza to fall.
That would mean the fall of AlAqsa Mosque. That Gazans/Palestinians are protectors of the Mosque. That is their purpose and why they stay.
All of this is about Al Aqsa (not Palestinians).
I guessing.. when (and if) it becomes necessary for Hezbollah to save Al Aqsa… it will be with a force the likes that the ME has never seen in its entirety.
Locusts swarm after swarm will relentlessly descend, destroy and annihilate any enemy that gets between them and Al Aqsa.
Why? Because they’re finished with the pretense that the land and the Mosque is not theirs.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 20:29 utc | 73
in answer to karlof1 @ 16 – this in from rt news..
“South Africa has filed an appeal before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, alleging that Israeli actions in Gaza amount to “genocide” and asking for “provisional measures” to stop it, the top UN court announced on Friday”
Posted by: james | Dec 29 2023 20:30 utc | 74
@swiss | Dec 29 2023 19:55 utc | 65
I wonder how you read /understand this????
He is saying that militarily/diplomatically the two scenarios are quite similiar, which is something that should be obvious to everyone. Which is exactly what I kept saying in the discussion from yesterday.
Posted by: SG | Dec 29 2023 20:42 utc | 75
RE: Posted by: Jane | Dec 29 2023 20:29 utc | 72
Lol 😂 No, this one was aimed directly at Putin himself & a Child Social Worker (?) and one or 2 others.
Apparently he personally ( and above cited aides) took off with 20k plus “children”. .. so he “kidnapped” them ( don’t know how he personally drove off with them in his “Beast”, the tank/Batmobile he drives around in”… but hey was so ridiculous, I admit, I never even bothered researching it.
So, this is “here say”…
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 20:45 utc | 76
swiss | Dec 29 2023 19:55 utc | 65–
That crappy excuse for news was discussed and exposed for what it is–decontextualized BS aimed at somehow legitimizing the Zionist Genocide. It’s yet another example of what Lavrov termed staging.
Swiss @ 65:
This RT article has been discussed on the previous Palestine-related thread. You need to be very careful reading RT postings – RT.com is no more trustworthy than the BBC, The Guardian or other Western news media in selectively reporting what politicians or diplomats say, to the extent that RT.com can make someone like Lavrov say something different from what he actually said or meant.
Lavrov observes that Israel appears to be modelling its genocide on aspects of Russia’s SMO. He admits that Russia and Israel share common history and a common enemy in Nazism. That does not mean though that he actually supports what Israel is doing. The RT.com article makes him look as though he does.
Karl Sanchez (karlof1) has provided a full English-language translation of Lavrov’s speech at his Substack blog if you are interested in seeing what Lavrov actually said.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Dec 29 2023 20:53 utc | 78
“Three men and one woman were the main suspects in a case involving a total of ten people, who, according to Iranian authorities, were working for West Jerusalem to damage Iran’s national security, the reports said.”
https://www.rt.com/news/589910-iran-execute-mossad-agents/
Russia’s RT openly flaunts West Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Meanwhile Iranian generals and IRGC officers get murdered by the dozen in the latest in hundreds of Israeli strikes on Damascus airport.
You would think sticking with Tel Aviv would be low hanging fruit, but it seems no one in Russia is too keen to hide their subservience to Israel:
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/10/why-jerusalem-is-not-the-capital-of-israel
“No country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, with the exception of the US and Russia” – (i only just found out about Russia being the second, yuk)
Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 29 2023 20:56 utc | 79
as far as Gaza/Palestine and israel are concerned, forget russia and china and any supposed roles that they can play in resolving this widening conflict (at least as this point in time, that is)
it is all up to the various members of the axis of Resistance
and true friends, like, say, South Africa
fyi
https://twitter.com/majedbamya/status/1740778925691945341
Ambassador Majed Bamya 🇵🇸 @majedbamya
Deputy Permanent Observer of the State of Palestine to the UN, New York
South Africa institutes proceedings against the State of Israel before the International Court of Justice under the Genocide Convention and requests provisional measures
and
https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1740797538998079657
⚡️🇿🇦🇮🇱 International Court of Justice:
“South Africa submitted a request to file a lawsuit against #Israel for violating the Genocide Convention and committing acts aimed at ethnic cleansing in #Gaza.”
and
Craig Murray twitter re South Africa instituting Genocide proceedings
https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1740791616997372062
Yes!!! Fantastic news. And about time too.
and
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/11/19/craig-murray-activating-the-genocide-convention/
Craig Murray: Activating the Genocide Convention
There is no room to doubt that Israel’s bombing of Palestinian civilians and depriving them of food, water and other necessities of life are grounds to invoke the 1948 Genocide Convention.
“…There is no doubt that Israel’s actions amount to genocide. Numerous international law experts have said so and genocidal intent has been directly expressed by numerous Israeli ministers, generals and public officials.
…Furthermore a judgement from the ICJ would automatically trigger a reference to the United Nations General Assembly — crucially not to the Western-vetoed Security Council.
All this begs the question of why no state has yet invoked the Genocide Convention. This is especially remarkable as Palestine is one of the 149 states party to the Genocide Convention, and for this purpose would have standing before both the U.N. and the ICJ.
….But I am afraid that the truth is that no state cares sufficiently about the thousands of Palestinian children already killed and thousands more who will shortly be killed, to introduce another factor of hostility in their relationship with the United States……”
Posted by: michaelj72 | Dec 29 2023 21:02 utc | 80
The International Court of Justice consists of 15 judges. They choose the presiding judge who is currently a USer. There is no appeal from a decision of this court and apparently its decision is binding on the parties. I look forward to the trial.
https://www.icj-cij.org/index.php/home
Posted by: Chas | Dec 29 2023 21:03 utc | 81
Just returned from the usual Friday chores to see that South Africa has stepped up to the plate.
Clearly we have a table here at the bar that doesn’t understand how international law works. JB cites this @57:
Only such a balanced, unbiased and international law-based approach…can lead to a lasting peace in the Middle East.
The precedent’s been set, but its implementation’s been blocked by the Outlaw US Empire since the precedent was attained. That fact’s been made very clear for years, and even more so since 7 October. Some have noticed I’ve gone onto the next step in the process by asking HOW is the precedent going to be enforced as the lack of enforcement is why the precedent hasn’t become reality. Why hasn’t an attempt been made to pass a UNSCR with a Chapter 7 provision authorizing the use of force to enforce compliance with the established precedent? That ought to be easy for that table to answer.
So, what’s clearly been agreed to by Russia, China, Iran, and other nations in the mix is for non-state actors to provide the force required to enforce the precedent thus avoiding an escalation involving all regional nations, which would be far more catastrophic.
Now, for my buddy psychohistorian’s excellent observation @48 and this Q:
Why can’t and don’t our species communicate openly about our forms of social organization?
China for quite awhile now has been very open about its form and what it proposes for humanity, several times alone in December, but they haven’t been broadcast beyond China and Asia. Yes, I’ve known about the speeches and open letters, but other seemingly more important events have arisen to push them offstage. My task for today and the weekend is to get those out to a wider audience.
@ genocidal | Dec 29 2023 21:13 utc | 82 who I have noticed infecting the bar.
You deserve a bevin, IMO
If you aren’t paid to throw sand into readers’ eyes and you do so out of malice, vanity or stupidity, not even the plea of economic necessity excuses your egregious behaviour.
Kindly leave the stage- to honest actors.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 29 2023 21:21 utc | 83
A plane cannot fly “completely inside” a building leaving a plane shaped hole lol…
Posted by: Pq | Dec 29 2023 18:26 utc | 42
A large airline plane might break or disintegrate when striking a reinforced can concrete structure with relatively little fenestration. But the WTC was a mostly glass faced building …
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 29 2023 18:45 utc | 47
Chris Cosmos | Dec 29 2023 17:09 utc | 18
Thank you for your responses. Seems like Tom and Pq are not on the same page – for me it just looks like the 9/11 truth seekers are a quite heterogenous community. Just as my first author reported.
Instead of considering things like nonexisting planes, or remotedly controlled ones, I’d rather go by Occam’s razor and fill in the details as follows:
The planes existed, and so did the 19 Arabs. The towers and building WTC VII were blown up. The Jewish owners wanted to get rid of the buildings, which were financial black holes, without having to demolish them in a legal way, which would have been way too expensive. (That is the only reason why building VII was included. Regarding buildings 1 and 2, the owners wouldn’t want to trust the planes of bringing those down.) The plot was designed by some clever Jews, of Mossad or otherwise. Of course, with geopolitics in mind. How they managed to motivate the 19 Arabs (useful idiots) to do the dirty work for them, remains their secret.
At least the two articles that I linked, gave me some information regarding the placement of explosives, and about the people involved with this part, or other parts of the plot. The information-to-BS-ratio of the two articles appears satisfactory. This makes them to my preferred sources.
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 29 2023 21:22 utc | 84
Are you unaware of all the aid flowing into gaza and the IDF warnings for civilians to flee targeted sections and that Hamas uses human shields and IDF extensive use of smart bombs and even IDF “dumb” bombs have calibrated trajectories.
Israel would be the most inept genocider in history.
Posted by: genocidal | Dec 29 2023 21:13 utc | 82
One of the most disingenuous hasbarat comments I’ve ever seen, and that’s saying a lot.
1. Aid flowing into Gaza?
https://tass.com/world/1690633
https://sputniknews.in/20231023/live-updates-israel-wont-provide-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza-strip-5015276.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/29/un-says-impossible-getting-aid-to-gaza-as-israeli-strikes-intensify
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231224-israel-preventing-un-security-councils-resolution-on-aid-for-gaza-from-being-implemented-palestine/
etc.
2. Warnings for civilians to flee targeted sections? You mean ALL of Gaza and that Gazans are prevented by Israel (and Egypt) from leaving (as they have been for more than a decade)?
https://news.antiwar.com/2023/11/30/report-details-how-israel-intentionally-targets-civilians-in-gaza/
Reuters: Israel orders more Gazans to flee, bombs areas where it sends them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnz6prObmNg
Ordering people to flee when there’s nowhere to flee to, or when you’re ordering them to flee to a location you’re planning on bombing later anyway does not constitute good faith warning or intent to protect civilians.
Inept genociders?
https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2023/11/11/israel-is-genociding-gaza-its-far-worse-than-anything-i-saw-during-two-brutal-israeli-wars-on-gaza/
Come on, we deserve better Hasbara trolls than you. Can you please call your manager? Because you’re not earning your pay.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 29 2023 21:23 utc | 85
Refinnejenna | Dec 29 2023 20:53 utc | 78–
Thanks for your more measured addition. I will note that it was an interview and that the question posed is extremely important as it completely influences Lavrov’s answer. And to completely understand the Q, the reader needs to know the additional context the questioner refers to, which is Lavrov’s July 2022 Izvestia article, that I also translated and is readily available. Also, Lavrov’s entire answer must be read to understand what the answer actually means.
RT is guilty of not linking to contextually important aspects of the items it publishes, and it almost always neglects to link to the primary source being used–all of which is extremely shoddy journalism and writing in general–the sort that I’d red pencil and return to the student to rewrite.
” “No country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, with the exception of the US and Russia” – (i only just found out about Russia being the second, yuk)
Posted by: Rubiconned | Dec 29 2023 20:56 utc | 79 ”
See, Russia and the US can agree on the very ” important ” points after all. Just like the Republicans and Democrats always agree on anything to do with the “chosen”.
Posted by: Moonie | Dec 29 2023 21:29 utc | 87
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 29 2023 21:22 utc | 85
Whoops, I accidentally posted a reply in the wrong (Ukraine) thread.
My take on 9/11 is pretty simple, as is Michael Collins Piper’s. Namely that Israel co-opted an existing plan for a mock assassination of JFK just as they co-opted numerous pre-planned military and civilian exercises on 9/11/2001 after previously assisting the alleged hijackers, tracking them, possibly funding them. I also believe that incendiary materials were mixed into the new fire retardant paint applied to select structural members of the WTC complex in the months and years prior, by firms with Israeli connections or origins. A bunch of other stuff as well.
Clearly planes were flown into the buildings (although without better evidence from the Pentagon I’m still undecided there). But that is a building which is reinforced, has way fewer windows and less glass on the building envelope, and would likely mostly stand up to a passenger plane strike (the alleged mechanics/maneuvering of which I am also very skeptical about).
In all cases, however, the US Government doesn’t pass the “Honest Government Test.”
https://scheerpost.com/2023/12/29/four-deaths-that-shaped-modern-american-history/
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 29 2023 21:29 utc | 88
Rubiconned @ 79:
That Al Jazeera article you linked to says Russia recognised West Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and East Jerusalem as the capital of an independent Palestinian state. So, no, the Israelis didn’t get all they wanted from Russia.
As for RT.com, the fact that it is subsidised by he Russian govt does not mean that organisation is loyal to the interests of the Russian people, let alone the interests of Moscow. For all we know, apart from RT.com head Margarita Simonyan, the most senior staff at RT.com could be the same sort of people who infest the BBC or The Guardian: people who identify their interests with those of their ultimate puppet masters.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Dec 29 2023 21:33 utc | 89
genocidal – are you trying to make a point about how insane you are with your namesake too??
Posted by: james | Dec 29 2023 21:33 utc | 90
https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/israeli-soldiers-open-fire-un-aid-convoy?nid=326631&topic=Israel-Palestine%2520war&fid=495691
Israeli soldiers fired at an aid convoy as it returned from Northern Gaza along a route designated by the Israeli Army,
Posted by: Hankster | Dec 29 2023 21:35 utc | 91
Well, as expected, Israel claims “Blood libel” over Sources h Africa ICJ filing. Along with how South Africa has “collaborated with a terrorist group that calls for the destruction of Israel” they are “baseless claims” and they are doing everything in their power to protect the Palestinian people while hunting down “the terrorist”.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/blood-libel-israel-slams-south-africa-for-filing-icj-genocide-motion-over-gaza-war/
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 21:36 utc | 92
” As for RT.com, the fact that it is subsidised by he Russian govt does not mean that organisation is loyal to the interests of the Russian people, let alone the interests of Moscow. For all we know, apart from RT.com head Margarita Simonyan, the most senior staff at RT.com could be the same sort of people who infest the BBC or The Guardian: people who identify their interests with those of their ultimate puppet masters.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Dec 29 2023 21:33 utc | 91 ”
I doubt Putin’s government is impotent to affect change at the supposedly duplicitous RT. They can start with the purse strings like every other government would do.
Posted by: Moonie | Dec 29 2023 21:37 utc | 93
James @ 92:
We should pity trolls like Genocidal, Hebrew Warror and Lion of Judea who have to repeat whatever their paymasters tell them. If they don’t do as they’re told, they might be sent to the frontlines in southern Lebanon.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Dec 29 2023 21:40 utc | 94
Willow | Dec 29 2023 20:26 utc | 71
“I’m not suggesting there is merit, but no BRICS nation has invoked the genocide convention to prevent the embarrassing precedent of the same the genocide convention applied to Russia.”
This craven notion again. A propaganda ploy is not a nuclear weapon or one of the “best quality” weapons systems. The empire is holding nothing back on that front. If they thought it would be helpful to formally accuse Russia of genocide they would’ve done it a long time ago.
And even if they might play tit for tat with that, so what? Are we ever going to be done with this mindset of total timidity and stepping on eggshells and being scared of one’s shadow out of terror of what the imperial media’s going to say?
All that kind of extreme conservatism and keeping-one’s-head-down tells me is that a lot of “pro-Russians”, for all their bluster, lack all confidence in Russia’s prospects. Anyone who felt confident, in accord with the evidence of reality, would have far more of a counter-aggressive mindset and wouldn’t worry so much about what the enemy is going to do. As Patton liked to say, let the enemy worry about himself.
So the point stands, if the Russian leadership was pro-Palestinian they’d have brought formal accusations of genocide against the Zionist entity in all the important venues. So it follows…
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Dec 29 2023 21:43 utc | 95
(appreciate correction and/or detail)
Posted by: Exile | Dec 29 2023 16:53 utc | 13
Sounds like
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/1003najaf/
”
During Gulf War II, the Army sent its Apache helicopters to mount a “deep attack” against an Iraqi unit. Small-arms and anti-aircraft fire downed one Apache, and the other helicopters retreated, some damaged so seriously they had to be grounded for weeks.
…
”
Posted by: 600w | Dec 29 2023 21:45 utc | 96
Posted by: Newbie | Dec 29 2023 19:32 utc | 56
Correct.
Posted by: 600w | Dec 29 2023 21:47 utc | 97
PHOTO GALLERY: Israel prevents Palestinians from praying at Al Aqsa Mosque for 11th Friday in a row
So they prayed in the street. Look at the photos. It leaves one speechless.
https://english.ahram.org.eg/UI/Front/MultimediaInner.aspx?NewsContentID=514818&newsportalname=Multimedia
Posted by: JB | Dec 29 2023 21:59 utc | 98
This is the 84 page ICJ Filing if anyone wants to read here and there.
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf#page=72
It does call for an urgent Hearing.
Some say the case will not be heard at all.
I think it will probably be “assessed” and then maybe a Hearing to “ gather more facts”, then dismissed.
In any event, I guess we’ll see.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 29 2023 22:00 utc | 99
I will take a middle ground here on IDF casualities in the War on Gaza……..
– 150 MBT’s lost to Kornet and Javelin ATGM fire (yes American made Javelins showing up via the Taliban Sales Division in the Kabul T Mart). How long before an urgent request for M1A2 Abrams replacements arrive in DC. The IDF only has a limited supply of Merkva’s (but has about 300 in reserve out of service)
– 200 IFV’s and APC’s lost again to Kornet and Javelin and RPG fire. Mostly Bradley’s and really old M113’s
– 200 Heavy duty GM 6×6, Humvees, and jeeps lost to various fire sources, mostly RPG’s
– Numerous Hamas and PIJ snipers and squad level infantry attacks
– Numerous booby trap incidents in Stalingrad like terrain of Gaza City….
My estimate taking into effect all these varied attacks and incidents is 2K IDF KIA, and 5.5 K WIA’s.
The Stalingrad terrian created by the IDF clueless airstrikes coupled with a seemingly inexhaustable supply of insurrgent ammo has created the perfect environment for asymmetric warfare. The reserve troops the IDF has committed to Gaza are failing badly….very poor discipline in constantly exposing themselves to sniper fire and a general haphazard attitude……..a deadly combination. You cant lounge around at camp and in open windows and doorways in an active combat zone, its a formula for a quick exit…..
The IDF is now hip deep in a full blown guerrilla war, stay tuned, the IDF now desparately needs a game changer….look for full scale attacks on Lebanon and Syria with the hope of involving Uncle Sam in a classic diversion…….
Posted by: Tobias Cole | Dec 29 2023 22:30 utc | 100