Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 13, 2023
Palestine Open Thread 2023-301


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Haaretz:

Graphic Videos and Incitement: How the IDF Is Misleading Israelis on Telegram (archived)
The IDF unit responsible for psychological warfare operations operates a Telegram channel called '72 Virgins – Uncensored,' which targets local audiences with 'exclusive content from the Gaza Strip'

The channel, which boasts of "exclusive content from the Gaza Strip" and has published over 700 posts, images and videos of terrorists being killed and of destruction in the Strip, encourages its 5,300 followers to share the content so that "everyone can see that we're screwing them."

The Israel Defense Forces denies that it operates the channel, but a senior military official confirmed to Haaretz that the army is responsible for operating it. "There is no reason for the IDF to conduct influence campaigns on Israeli citizens of Israel," said the official, who requested anonymity. "The messages there are problematic. It doesn't look like an awareness campaign of an army like the IDF, but more like talking points for [far-right rapper] The Shadow, and the fact that soldiers operate such a problematic page is egregious," he said.

The channel was created October 9, two days after the war began, as The Avengers. The next day the name was changed to Azazel, echoing the Hebrew pronunciation of "Gaza" and a word for hell, and then 72 Virgins – Uncensored. An October 11 post read: "Burning their mother … You won't believe the video we got! You can hear the crunch of their bones. We'll upload it right away, get ready." Images of Palestinian captives and the bodies of terrorists were captioned "Exterminating the roaches … exterminating the Hamas rats. … Share this beauty." The following text accompanies a video of an Israeli soldier allegedly dipping machine gun bullets in pork fat: "What a man!!!!! Lubricates bullets with lard. You won't get your virgins." And: "Garbage juice!!!! Another dead terrorist!! You have to watch it with the sound, you'll die laughing."

Only for news & views directly related to the war in Palestine.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

The only solution is ONE STATE for all the people: they must try to live between them. No separation. Jews and Palestines in the same land FOR ALL. Leave them try their problems, the people, without interferences of the lords of the war. They were living 200 years ago until the britons were mad.
European and USA greed

Posted by: Caga | Dec 14 2023 8:52 utc | 201

Caga, that seems like a good idea and Lavrov yesterday has called for an international conference to solve the problem for ever. It was on the ahram blog at noon and later the same day there was a full article. Guess what? It was not even mentioned in the ecening news in France or today in the morning papers.

Posted by: Minaa | Dec 14 2023 9:12 utc | 202

Censored Men
@CensoredMen
·
12h
🇵🇸🇮🇱 Wow, Prof. Norman Finkelstein being brilliant once again 👏
The amount of respect I have for this man is indescribable.
Thank you Piers for giving him a good amount of time also.
“Israel has been waging a war of genocide in Gaza.”
https://twitter.com/CensoredMen/status/1735033104757125209

Posted by: Menz | Dec 14 2023 9:26 utc | 203

Lebanese TV reports:
10:25 Al-Qassam Brigades says resistance fighters targeted 4 Israeli Merkavas, 4 vehicles in Sheikh Radwan Neighborhood with Yassine-105 projectiles
=======
Comment – tally now at 114 Merkavas claimed by Hamas and Hezbollag since Al-Asqa Storm began. It’s worth scrolling through the live feed. Been a definite increase in activity on all fronts:
https://english.almanar.com.lb/
.

Posted by: Exile | Dec 14 2023 9:42 utc | 204

The European Commission has decided to release the 10.2 billion Euro in aid to Hungary.This all comes on the eve of an EU Summit at which Hungarian President Orban had promised to block 50 billion Euro in funds promised by the European Council to Ukraine.
This is just part of the 30 billion Hungary may receive contigent on meeting EU human rights requirements. Those requirements seem to be a little ambiguous: “After a thorough assessment…the horizontal enabling condition on the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is fulfilled…”
Orban is just another Erdogan.
John O’ Sullivan who was Thatcher’s chief advisor and who set up the North Atlantic alliance and demanded the West needed an economic system that represented NATO. Who was also editor of the National review ( neo conservatism on steriods).
Set up the Danube institute think tank in Budapest. Has very close ties with Orban. He is also a member of the board of advisors for the Global Panel Foundation, an NGO that works behind the scenes in crisis areas around the world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Institute
When you read John O’ Sullivan articles in the National review. It is as if he has been putting his own words into Orban’s mouth for the last 2 years.
The Danube institute is actually funded directly by the Hungarian government. This is and always has been a western cold war institution. With direct links to Washington via John O’ Sullivan and his team.
It’s just a right wing conservative fuck fest.No surprise Orban was in Argentina for the Inauguration of Javier Milei. He would of adored and fully supported Pinochet in Chile.
This is the types of groups voters are lurching towards as they vote for right wing populists across the world. With all the same right wing think tanks firmly planted up their ass. All the same media channels pumping the same propaganda into living rooms. How they got voters to vote for the EU in the first place.
The 10.2 billion Euro in aid to Hungary will it cause inflation if Orban spends it ?
No ?
Well he doesn’t need it, as using an Index finger and computer keyboard he could create 10.2 billion Hungarian forint’s and spend those instead.
But leaders in the EU tell their voters before they join. Look we are out of money, we are bankrupt and just look at all of the funds the EU gives member states. We need to join the Euro and we can have all that money. The voters fall for it wave EU flags, sing ode to joy and join the Euro.
Get loaded up with Euro debt they can’t pay back and get asset stripped by Brussels. The IMF playbook on steriods.
Under Orban there is no target date for adopting the euro. But is on an EU convergence program.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hungary+EU+convergence+program&ia=web
Just look at it the state of that. Like growing an Apple free until it is ripe for the picking. Then stripped bare and always in a state of winter.
If Orban was a true friend of Russia he would leave all of this and break ties with the Danube institute immeadiately.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 14 2023 10:16 utc | 205

You do not have a proper understanding when you permit that your sons and daughters are dying for a bunch of people who think about you nothing.
You and me are nothing in this live. Want to be someone, recognize that you are unique, a fucking human spirit able to be individual and responsable. No body is gonna save us. Just, we, humans, if we have heart to live and forgive.

Posted by: Caga | Dec 14 2023 10:19 utc | 206

Sorry b, that should have been posted on the Ukrainian thread.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 14 2023 10:24 utc | 207

Meanwhile we do not recognize that every human is an unique spirit who deserves the intrinsic right to be, there will be not solution. Meanwhile we do not estimate our intrinsic desire to be free, our choice, to be ants, social insects, will be.
Of course, for you. My heart, and yours, is free.

Posted by: Caga | Dec 14 2023 10:34 utc | 208

…that seems like a good idea and Lavrov yesterday has called for an international conference to solve the problem for ever…
Posted by: Minaa | Dec 14 2023 9:12 utc | 209
You mean put the colonists back in the driving seat. How stupid. Putting the originators of the crime back in charge. Is that smart?

Posted by: Joey | Dec 14 2023 10:45 utc | 209

I give a fuck all of pretensions.
I want to be free. But not for any cost. Before me is always some one more, why? The so called strong people must help the sleeve people because we must help each other.

Posted by: Caga | Dec 14 2023 10:45 utc | 210

Why the land to be free has become a bunch of dry heart?
Is it something in America, really wrong?
All its existence?
But, to be free:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfpqKPsAjAM

Posted by: Caga | Dec 14 2023 11:08 utc | 211

Caga,
The Christians share with Jews and Muslim a strongly apocalyptic imagery. This fantasy has been used to brainwash the last 3 or 4 generations via Hollywood movies.
The same Christians have been unable to open a debate on the role of their various churches who did not manage to forbid categorically their followers to commit atrocities for a number of years in a row (not only working in the various prisoners’ camps but also as receiving for help in the fields or factories some starved and beaten prisoners). This started in the 30s and not just during the hot war period. Such a debate needs to be addressed, starting with the Lutherans in Germany and the Catholics in Poland. Maybe the guilt of some could be put at its right place.

Posted by: Minaa | Dec 14 2023 11:13 utc | 212

America is not bad.
It’s our choice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZheqt_7c1A
Why?

Posted by: Caga | Dec 14 2023 11:27 utc | 213

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Dec 14 2023 10:16 utc | 212
Hungary (HUF) is not the only EU member that has not adopted EUR since 2004. Besides UK(“exit”), ghosts of the “A8”, and notorious DK, the EEA fringe also circulates sovereign coin. Nonetheless, each contributes “proportional” (GDP:pop. wgted.) tax(, tribute, grant, or “hush money”) to EU’s annual administrative funds in order to maintain EEC “access”.
20 states comprise the “eurozone” today. Objectively, 6 of them, combined, contribute 80% marketable value to EUR exchange.
EU6 FR, DE, BE, IE, LU, NL (by GINI)
EU6 FR, DE, ES, IT, NL, PL (by ECB capital)
And, note, heads of BE, DE, FR, IT, LU, NL established (1972), vested, and control ECB monetary policy, IMF monetary policy, and World Bank monetary policy. Which is to say, for Hungary exchange rate is the leading indicator of trade policy, whether EU27 (“Single Market”), RU, or ROW.

Posted by: sln2002 | Dec 14 2023 11:41 utc | 214

This site is just wiping off comments that are posted.

Posted by: anon | Dec 14 2023 12:24 utc | 215

Putin has been criticised for failing to support the Palestinians adequately, but this is probably somewhat unwarranted. He himself has stated that his job is to protect the interests of Russia and the Russian people, not to be a friend or an enemy of this or that country. He does not see himself as some kind of knight errant out to solve all the problems of the world.
For all the time he has been in power, Russia has faced unprecedented hostility from the US and his satellites, a bloc with enormous economic, financial and military resources. Their provocations and chicanery have forced him to commit to a major war requiring the military and industrial mobilisation of the country. He has also faced a decades long campaign of economic warfare and propaganda vilification.

Posted by: anon | Dec 14 2023 12:43 utc | 216

Putin has overseen the economic reconstruction of Russia, and supported the development of BRICS and the SCO. It is possible to criticise him on various grounds, like any politician, but it is instructive to compare him with the figures who pass for leaders of western countries – Biden, Johnson, Macron, Schulz, Trudeau.
With Putin at the helm, Russia has weathered the storm. It is his western antagonists who now face inevitable military and political defeat.
At times, Putin has gone out on a limb, as he did to sabotage the western regime change project in Syria. He has to pick his fights wisely. He does not react emotionally, but operates in a calculating and methodical manner to produce positive results. Any fair assessment needs to take this into account. He achieves his objectives gradually over a long period of time.
And sometimes he makes mistakes, like any human being, as he himself has acknowledged. He has admitted to a mistake in persisting for too long with efforts to resolve issues with his enemies by agreement.

Posted by: anon | Dec 14 2023 12:57 utc | 217

For those doubters among us of the efficacy of BDS, Puma sports announced it is dropping its sponsorship of Israeli Soccer, although it denies it is because of the boycott, and still operates a factory in the occupied territories.

Posted by: Delhiliterally | Dec 14 2023 13:31 utc | 218

Anon
Yes we are so used to interventionism we are dismayed when Russia does not resort to it. Ukraine and Syria do not really qualify as exceptions to noninterventionism do they?

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 13:33 utc | 219

Putin is a good leader for his country (definitely compared to the clowsn in the West)and has his hands full with NATO. His duty is only to Russia. That’s not in dispute.
I absoliutely don’t expect Russia to physically DO anything at all, other than occasionally thumbing its nose at the US on this issue by not vetoing.
My point rather is that Putin needs to realize that for the West, he is no better than Hamas, especially with the ICC warrant for him. The Russian SMO to defend Russians in the Donbass is not different from the Palestinian resistance. Russia went through a number of legal processes to justify the SMO legally. The Palestinian resistance too has the law on its side although that law has never been enforced to hold Israel accountable.
It’s about time Russia realized that being a hostage of its Zionist lobby does it no good, just as it does the US no good. In this sense I think Russian politicians pander to the lobby just the same as US UK EU.
Russia can if it wants state that the security of Palestinians is on EQUAL importance with the security of Israelis, Russians or otherwise.
What I didn’t appreciate is the weakness of statements coming from Russia who are well aware of the history of the USSR in having created this problem in 1947-48 mess and enabling it over the decades thanks to their Zionist lobby. I had posted a comment on this in an earlier thread.
There’s no need to be hyperbolic like Erdogan who only talks but what digusted me a little was when he said early on in this conflict was the statement he made about it being terrible that children were being operated on without anesthetics. That is terrible of course. It is “more terrible” for children but it’s not as if it’s “less terrible” for an adult, the women having c-sections without anesthesia. It’s not less terrible for the doctors doing these operations or the parents watching their children and adult loved ones being operated on like that.
The events in the West Bank and Gaza are genocidal crimes against humanity and nothing stops Russia from verbalizing it as such. He likened the siege to the siege of Leningrad without mentioning that the siege of Gaza is ongoing for 17 years.

Posted by: pq | Dec 14 2023 14:05 utc | 220

I am minded to try to defend Erdogan a bit, too. If it were not for him, we would have a completely different scenario in the Black Sea. He closed the Bosphorus to military vessels sailing to the Black Sea. Erdogan also said a few days ago that he will not let Sweden get into Nato if he does not get his F-16s.\
Now that the Empire is collapsing, the US will get more involved in the only “friends” it still has, namely in the Nordic countries, notably Sweden and Finland. Both countries now have Defense Cooperation Agreements with the US even if Sweden is not even in Nato. The contents of the agreements were unveiled today and they are not a pretty sight: the US has a few locations all over both countries at its disposal. Nukes are not forbidden.
When Putin mentions the Leningrad siege, he is thinking of the current security challenges of his home town Saint Petersburg, which is only a few hundred kilometers from the Nato border in Finland. Finland was actively involved in the siege in WWII so this is not just speculation, it is an historic precedent!
The dilemma the US now has is that it would like to pull the plug on Israel. Scott Ritter explained this in his wonderful interview yesterday but what he did not mention is that the US cannot do that not only because of its own Israel lobby, which is losing feathers at a rapid pace, but also not the Nordic countries to see how the US treats its allies in pulling the plug when the going gets tough for itself. Sure, Ukraine is a concrete reminder of what happens to the friends of America but that situation is remedied by the US by turning it to an example of how dangerous Russia is! And in Germany, emergency legislation is now being discussed to allow the aid to continue to flow to Ukraine.
As Scott Ritter also explained, the US is faring disastrously. In early fall, Biden was at the G20 meeting promising an alternative to China’s BRI. Trains would be allowed to travel from Dubai to Israel through the Middle East. Like that is now going to happen. Or ever…Even the Abraham Accords are now hanging on the balance and the normalization of ties with Israel is very much in doubt. Which means Biden’s BRI-challenging dream has now turned into a nightmare.
Even outside the Middle East, the US is trying to woo countries like Indonesia. One of the presidential candidate is said to be pro-US. Like that is going to happen either. Indonesia has never recognized Israel but has recognized the Palestinian State. Imagine how bad the current situation in Gaza looks in places like Indonesia with its set of international recognitions.
India might still be a prospect but even then the US manages to get the country to its side by pointing what it did to Imran Khan in Pakistan. Is the anti-Pakistani sentiment in India enough to win the hearts and minds of Indians? I doubt it very much, especially in view of the positive developments its relations have undergone with both Russia and even China.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 14:32 utc | 221

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 13 2023 16:34 utc | 53
Homophobia is a contrived psychological trait
considered as a subcategory of xenophobia, wherein a person is regarded as homophobic for espousing a negative views towards others identified as homosexual as consequence of a reaction formation towards their own hidden, unidentified, unconscious or latent tendencies which may be identified as homosexual.
The distinguishing aspect of a phobia is a fear response manifest from one’s own nature as apart from an external threat.
In this case, the Gruff’s point “that no one is afraid of homosexuals” is a claim of direct support for the view that hatred of homosexuality is precisely phobic. Cis generally have nothing have nothing to fear from homos except contract with their own homo tendencies, while homos reliably take abuse from straights who act out their phobias. And whereas in immediate context the Gruff’s point is surely intended to deride homosexuality as impotent, which is redundant, Gruff’s point itself is an example of homophobia. So nice work Gruff!
BTW Gruff is a great name for a bear (top) so extra props for your post.

Posted by: Arrnon | Dec 14 2023 20:10 utc | 222

The Zionist Regime is now using a lot of foreign Blackwater style mercenaries in Gaza. Their own kiddie killers don’t have the stomach to do the dirty work of fighting Hamas. Their only contribution to the fighting now is massacring and terrorising civilians and carrying out Nazi style, Babi Yar type mass shootings. There are US/ French/ UK/ Ukrainian mercenaries there now, probably many others, but obviously they aren’t counted in the casualty figures. Despite this, the Zionist forces are having their asses handed to them every day by Hamas. Casualties are mounting steadily.

Posted by: anon | Dec 15 2023 14:55 utc | 223

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 13 2023 16:15 utc | 46
You ignore the fact that Hamas did overrun barracks of some military units and took prisoners there, some (most?) in their sleepwear. I think that even lacking uniforms and weapons in their hands such people count as military.
Somewhere, once, I read that of 4 battalions designated to guard border with Gaza, 3 were moved to West Bank, which means that they were assisting pogroms and reprisals following Sukkoth celebrations in the Noble Sanctuary (a.k.a. Temple Mount). That would explain the ease with each Hamas could overrun the barracks. Not only there were few soldiers to resist, they were led to complacence by the central command decisions that would make sense only with solid intelligence that there will be no incursion from Gaza. This is all too frequent fallacy, “it would only make sense”, with hidden assumption “it made sense”.
In any case, female soldiers are present in IDF, perhaps even more so in the lowest priority units including those that remained near Gaza.
Given all that, it is unnecessary to entertain concepts like “civilians are not civilian”, which is toxic. I would rather spend time documenting to what extend Israel, USA etc. descend to that thinking at the levels of national leadership and military command.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 15 2023 15:13 utc | 224

For all the time he has been in power, Russia has faced unprecedented hostility from the US and his satellites, a bloc with enormous economic, financial and military resources. Their provocations and chicanery have forced him to commit to a major war requiring the military and industrial mobilisation of the country. He has also faced a decades long campaign of economic warfare and propaganda vilification.
Posted by: anon | Dec 14 2023 12:43 utc | 223
I disagree.
Between 2000 and 2004 US kept up good relations with Putin-in fact Putin travelled over the Bushie’s Texas rtanch in 2003 or so.
The TSN turning point was in 2004 when Putin wouldn’t allow Exxon to buy Yukos; that’s when the knives came out.

Posted by: canuck | Dec 15 2023 15:22 utc | 225

Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 14:32 utc | 228
*** The dilemma the US now has is that it would like to pull the plug on Israel. ***
No, it (or rather, those who rule it) would not.
Though from an objective “USA” perspective doing so would be sensible and overdue.
But the US political system is itself a captive of the zionists … only bought or ideologically unquestioning personnel have any realistic chance of power. Big money and monopoly mass-media control ensures that.
Not much different to the UK, which has now reached a (converged with the worst of USA) stage whereby “democracy” is no more than a sick farce.
See how prime minister Sunak now wants to limit or ban under-16 access to “social media” …. well, almost all of the things on social media the public may (rightly) consider bad, are actually sponsored or inflicted by the political establishment itself and (totally unaccountable) senior apparatchiks in Whitehall.
So intended restriction of access is certainly *not* to “protect” juveniles from that.
Surveys have, however, shown that younger people nowadays tend to get their information and news off “social media” (effectively defined as the entire internet) rather than Establishment controlled and selectively laundered or spun mainstream mass-media.
Therefore the alternatives must be censored or eliminated.
Agendas such as 21/30 and the WEF “reset” must be protected from critical exposure.
At the same time, any age-verification system will fortuitously allow the (Political Establishment uni-party pretending to be several) regime an *overt* and massive increase in surveillance and control of all media, irrespective of viewer age.
Such monopolisation of on-line data and interpretation has been a Political Establishment aim since the mid 1990s, under a constantly recycled list of various excuses….
All allegedly for the public’s own good, of course.

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 15 2023 20:05 utc | 226

Arrnon | Dec 14 2023 20:10 utc | 229
*** The distinguishing aspect of a phobia is a fear response manifest from one’s own nature as apart from an external threat.***
Strange how the descriptive “-phobia” is applied to any disagreement with elements of the agendas of the Political Establishment.
What a coincidence!
Of course, those who rule can then punish people for ‘fearing’ that same Establishment’s agendas.
Which neatly censors all opposition within the public — while also banning ‘fear’ of being censored, otherwise attacked, or even disposed of.

Posted by: Cynic | Dec 15 2023 20:20 utc | 227

Russian attitudes
Although some expect a more overt stance, the Russians are adept at Diplomacy. ie. Actions taken behind the words. However, a “Diplomatic” discourse has several “traditional” restrictions, most of which the US has been trying to eliminate. ie, Keep calm and smile if necesssary.
***
One nearby country that is relevant to Gaza/Zionist ambitions is Syria. After the Israelis bombed Aleppo and Damascus repeatedly, the Russians are now letting Civil flights (from Iran etc?) use Kheimimin military airport. (Well protected by missiles).
The massive amount of cargo flights from the US, UK (via Cyprus) etc. with ammunition into nearby Lebanon, makes this area a potential flashpoint.
Israeli bombing flight have been reduced to attacking mainly Lebanon/Herzbollah, south of the Litani river. Netanyahoo has made no secret of his/it’s wish to transform that area into a pseudo-zionist “buffer” zone, enlarging Israel into Lebanon. (With US “help?”) The US and UK would like to get into a fight against Herzbollah as well. They are heavily present in Lebanon already.
The Russians would have difficulty in resupply in any fighting in Syria over a long period, but they ARE efficient and would obviously make a serious mess of any attacking force. So this is one “red line” which may make the Zionists think twice. (The range of some of the larger missiles are in the thousands of Kilometres, so could be fired from the Black sea if necessary.)
***
There have been a couple of attacks designed to put pressure on the Russians, originating from Al-Qaida in Idlib, and equally several attacks on US presence in Syria and Iraq (at least 88 by one count)
***
I don’t expect the Russians to appreciate pressure on their base in Syria and upsetting the new relationship Assad has with his neighbours. So, there will be no overt simply verbal “condemnations” from Putin and Lavrov, but precautions will have been taken.
***
On a personal note, I don’t think the sheer disgust at seeing children reduced to bloody rags is going to go away. It is a sort of deep basic attitude, that no amount of weasel words can ever alter.

Posted by: Stonebird | Dec 15 2023 21:31 utc | 228

Legitimate resistance?
This Is Hamas

Posted by: mjazz | Dec 16 2023 4:20 utc | 229

Posted by: mjazz | Dec 16 2023 4:20 utc | 237
LOL you’re so worthless that neither you nor the site you link provide any meaningful context for why an obvious non-European Israeli is shown lying dead. Your hasbara is garbage.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 16 2023 6:57 utc | 230

Posted by: mjazz | Dec 16 2023 4:20 utc | 237
Pictures of dead Daleks don’t interest me.
Show us the pictures of Palestinians killed by IDF.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 16 2023 8:12 utc | 231