Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 14, 2023

Palestine Open Thread 2023-301

Only for news & views directly related to the war in Palestine.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by b on December 14, 2023 at 13:40 UTC | Permalink

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The Saker wrote, "anyone that doesn't know by now that September 11th was an inside job is stupid."

The Saker admitted that it had taken himself quite a while to come around on September 11th.

How long will it take people to recognize that Oct 7th was also an inside job?

---

Netanyahu wanted, long before October 7th, to seize all of Palestine.
Support by the Zionist masses for an outright ethnic cleansing of Gaza
was mixed, before October 7th.

--------
Can you put together these pieces? It really isn't that hard of a puzzle.
--------

It has been established that Mossad/IDF knew months in advance of Hamas' jail break.

Mossad has had spooks on the ground in Gaza for a very long time.

"Gaza is among the, if not the, most heavily surveilled strips of land on Earth, both from the air (satellite and drone surveillance)"

"The Zionist government controls all of Gaza’s borders in a total siege-style blockade. Nothing goes in or out without the state’s blessing"

"Months, if not years of planning went into the operation, including erecting a mock Israeli town inside of Gaza to use for practice. Israeli intelligence literally watched these training sessions from outposts on the border."
Again, "Israeli intelligence literally watched these training sessions from outposts on the border."

"Mossad/IDF knew months in advance of Hamas' jail break plans in detail.

Knowing the communication systems were a Hamas target were those systems hardened out of due diligence?
Knowing the communication systems were a Hamas target was redundancy of those systems created out of due diligence?

Who had the motive to bring down those communication systems? Both Hamas and their Mossad/IDF collaborators.
Who had the *greater* means to bring down those communication systems? Clearly, Mossad/IDF

The IDF implemented the Hannibal Doctrine thus multiplying the number of casualties.
Mossad/IDF/Netanyahu benefited from the casualty count as they were able to create outrage and blood lust amongst the masses
and thus gain support for ethnic cleansing.

--------
Can you put together these pieces? It really isn't that hard of a puzzle.
--------

Solution: Mossad/IDF made use of Hamas' Oct 7th plan
incorporating it into their own Mossad/IDF plans,
a plan that guaranteed success for Hamas on Oct 7th
but gave license to Netanyahu to seek ethnic cleansing
thereafter.

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:03 utc | 1

Fuck Israel.

Posted by: liveload | Dec 14 2023 14:05 utc | 2

Only 2 “new” PR articles that I saw:

1) Russia passes Israeli baton to Turkey (Turkey currently in Egypt… talking about *healthcare (?) for Egypt & medical supplies to Gaza.)

https://tass.com/politics/1720835
“Putin points to Erdogan's leading role in resolving Gaza conflict”:

“I would like to note the significant, leading role of Turkish President Erdogan in the issue of restoring the situation in Gaza," Putin said. "He is certainly one of the leaders of the international community who is paying attention to this tragedy and doing everything to change the situation for the better, to create conditions for long-term peace," the Russian head of state added.

Putin pointed out that Erdogan is "very active in this direction." "God bless him," the Russian president wished his Turkish counterpart.

And secondly: Red Sea

2) US has approached Bahrain, Qatar & Australia for “patrols”. Trying to form coalition of the willing.
Australia is the only Country so far, seriously considering proceeding.

Iran makes threats.
https://english.almanar.com.lb/2001496

Ashtiani’s comments came after the United States said last week it was in talks with other countries to set up a task force following a spate of attacks staged by Yemeni revolutionaries against ships bound for the Zionist entity in the Red Sea.

“If they make such an irrational move, they will be faced with extraordinary problems,” Ashtiani told the official Iranian Student News Agency (ISNA) in comments it published on Thursday.

“Nobody can make a move in a region where we have predominance,” he said, referring to the Red Sea.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 14:06 utc | 3

If Mossad (with CIA support) could pull off 9/11, 10/7 was a piece of cake.

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 14:07 utc | 4

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:03 utc | 1

Quotes came from the website "Armageddon Prose"

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:07 utc | 5

15 Hours Ago, Debate:

I don’t like Piers Morgan, it’s like a UK version on CNN…
However, I appreciated watching this.

Alan Dershowitz was full on “mirror” of ALL Israeli talking (lying) points, but very genuinely expressing Israeli talking points/position.
Finkelstein did not fall into any “defending” traps, nor did he elaborate and go through the “legalistic” realities, but very thoroughly made his case, where any “normal” viewer would have been swayed to consider.
I’m glad for the presentation at least.
“Norman Finkelstein vs Alan Dershowitz On Israel-Palestine War With Piers Morgan | The Full Debate”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uHqs15gOv4k&pp=ygUjcGllcnMgbW9yZ2FuIGZpbmtlbHN0ZWluIGludGVydmlldyA%3D

Anyways, was better “discussion” than any previous obvious “emotional” ones.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 14:19 utc | 7

Wow! Really interesting material, Paul @6

About Israeli forces guiding Hamas
https://actionabletruth.substack.com/p/blue-shirts-october-7

It will take more time to get through it.

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:22 utc | 8

Sorry, if this has been posted already by another user:

Biden administration staffers call for ceasefire at vigil outside White House

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/biden-staffers-ceasefire-vigil-white-house/index.html

Posted by: Apollyon | Dec 14 2023 14:28 utc | 9

I wonder if the 'angry drivers' were arrested for antisemitism and hate crimes?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angry-motorists-attack-protesters-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire-while-blocking-major-road/ar-AA1lsqxB?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=2350e23b361e4da9bbcad387b8cf8c8e&ei=14

Many Americans love israel but hate jews, don't you dare interfere with our commute!

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 14:36 utc | 10

https://t.me/syriangirlpartisan/267

Little girl screams for her father, while being treated without anaesthetic. Israel killed her father, bombed her school and denies #Gaza medical supplies.

And all because she isn't jewish.

That is what Israel is.


Posted by: scanalyse | Dec 14 2023 14:39 utc | 11

Solution: Mossad/IDF made use of Hamas' Oct 7th plan
incorporating it into their own Mossad/IDF plans,
a plan that guaranteed success for Hamas on Oct 7th
but gave license to Netanyahu to seek ethnic cleansing
thereafter.

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:03 utc | 1

I think this was pretty clear the moment the Egyptians reported that they had warned Israel, and Netanyahoo proclaimed that 10/7 was Israel's 9/11. After that, the tidal wave of evidence was overwhelming. Such chutzpah for a lying liar like Netanyahoo to tell on himself so boldly.

Posted by: Honzo | Dec 14 2023 14:49 utc | 12

@librul

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:03 utc | 1

You oversimplify. A lot. If you claim that Israel knew EVERY detail of Oct 7 and planned for the events then you should also explain why they are digging themselves deeper and depper into a HUGE hole as they are now???

I have a hard time believing it was in their plan to commit genocide with the whole world's attention on them.

The seven weeks since the ground invasion started show that Hamas is a competent and professional military force and that the IOF SUCK BIG TIME in face to face fighting. Which would explain the military bases being taken by Hamas on Oct 7.

I find it more believable that they thought Hamas was up to some small mischief and they would LIHOP and then exaggerate it to justify some qiuet military action without the world watching. Instead they got a professional military raid as described by Ritter, they made things worse for themselves with the mass Hannibal (whether through chaos / deliberately or both). They escalated too quickly without a clear strategy.

To the outside world it looks like unhinged revenge.

All the IOF do is bomb from the air while on the ground their troops terrorize and execute unarmed civilians. And they vandalize shops while stealing guitars, bikes, jewelry, anything else they can get their hands on. Including money.

When the Palestine-free map was shown at the UN, it's more likely that Israel was thinking they quietly continue the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, finish up the Abraham Accords with KSA and then Palestine would have nothing left to negotiate with. UAE have privately admitted in the past that Israel has not been keeping to their promises under Abraham Accords.


1. "Mossad/IDF" is not one entity. They are two separate bureaucracies. Which means when it comes to explaining dead Israelis on Oct 7 to an Israeli public demanding to know what happened they are both currently in a major Cover Your Ass operation. So some people are going to say, we did our job, look here are the plans. Others will say: we were not informed of these plans. And so on.

2. Do you really believe that Hamas wrote up all their plans written up nice and neatly in a Powerpoint to be delivered to NYT?

3. Israel is always surveilling Gaza / WB 24/7 in many different ways AND always and torturing Palestinians. This means that they get an unimaginable amount of data. If you know anything about analyzing BIG DATA, you'll know that mostly it is Garbage In, Garbage Out.

4. I don't doubt that there may have been a small percentage of LIHOP, as in, we know they're up to something, let them go ahead and we can mow the lawn. Again.

9/11 was not strictly an "inside job".

An example of an inside job is the propaganda campaign around the Kuwaiti incubator babies put together as an excuse to invade Iraq. Many people in the US government were involved in putting it together and everyone knew the purpose of it.

9/11 was a false flag by Israel on US territory with a very, very small number of insiders who were only US citizens and had no allegiance to Israel (as opposed to being dual US/Isr or the Zionists like Silverstein). It's more of a false flag than an inside job. People who work in big organizations know not to ask questions. Most just obey their boss and keep their mouths shut so most Americans who enabled 9/11 in the US did not know the details of what was happening.

Posted by: pq | Dec 14 2023 14:54 utc | 13

About Israeli forces guiding Hamas
https://actionabletruth.substack.com/p/blue-shirts-october-7

Posted by: Paul from Norway | Dec 14 2023 14:15 utc | 6

It may well be Mossad, the question is when was the photoshoot?

The problem with these and videos released by the IOF is that nobody can verify if they were taken on Oct 7.

I noted that the "Hamas" atrocity propaganda videos were released little by little BY THE IOF as they continued to escalate.

Two days after the Al Ahli hospital bombing, MSM released altogether a huge blitz of atrocity porn. One such video involved someone's bodycam of himself shooting at "porta potty doors at the rave". Great.
How do we know who was shooting the gun?

Every single video released by the IOF first needs to be independently verified. Never going to happen.

To be clear, I'm not saying it was not an inside job, I can't prove otherwise. But if it was an "inside job"...they've only been going downhill since Oct 7.

Posted by: pq | Dec 14 2023 15:13 utc | 14

John Helmer at Dancing with Bears published an article written by an expert physicist which provided indications that the Israelis were using enhanced radiation weapons in Gaza. There was also a suggestion that there was evidence that the USA trialled such weapons in Fallujah.

In that context, and taking into account that a significant percentage of the US Government considers Trump supporters in the same light as Netanyahu considers Palestinians, one has to ask if the U.S. is providing Israel with non conventional weapons in addition to projectiles and high explosive.

Questions need to be asked.

The January 6th prisoners are being treated in an identical fashion to the Israeli treatment of Palestinians.
Civil war in the US would be fought in the same way as the Israeli onslaught of Gaza, backed by the same people. Is Israel helping to refine weapon systems for the US?

https://johnhelmer.net/new-evidence-that-israel-is-using-a-new-uranium-weapon-make-that-the-neutron-bomb/#more-89018

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Dec 14 2023 15:20 utc | 15

What hold does Israel have over the US?

Is it blackmail or bribery?

Do they have their nukes pointed at us or a territory of use to the US?

Posted by: Laura Roslin | Dec 14 2023 15:27 utc | 16

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Dec 14 2023 15:20 utc | 15

I have yet to hear of the J6 prisoners being beaten, tortured and/or murdered in prison. This is the routine all Palestinians are subjected to at the hands of zionazis. It has been my suspicion for 25 years that the main reason US puppets allow zionists to get away with their subjugation of Palestine is indeed a way to test and perfect total population control.
But to think MAGAts are the intended subjects of this scheme is ridiculous. Trump is more likely to inflict that system, in fact he has said as much many times with Project 2025. Don't forget, Trump and Genocide Joe answer to the same masters regardless of their facade.

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 15:35 utc | 17

Posted by: pq | Dec 14 2023 14:54 utc | 13

9/11 was a failure of Dubbya's administration and a huge success for Ariel Sharon's one.
All the game afterwards was simply cover-up for both and redirection of guilt towards muslims of all persuasions.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Dec 14 2023 15:39 utc | 18

Lebanese TV reports:

2 more Merkavas claimed by Al-Quassem brigades

https://english.almanar.com.lb/

Comment - brings total claimed tally to 116 MBTs ~24% of active service MBTs as of beginning of Al-Aqsa Storm

Posted by: Exile | Dec 14 2023 15:46 utc | 19

How long will it take people to recognize that Oct 7th was also an inside job?

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 14:03 utc | 1

##################

It doesn't matter. Hamas will reach their objectives or they won't.

The victors write the histories.

I don't understand your obsession with this stuff when the default position for intelligent adults is to trust NOTHING any government has to say.

It's like all of those people who talk about war crimes and justice. A comfortable delusion that there is a system and that truth matters to the institutional mechanisms designed and controlled by the corrupt.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 14 2023 15:53 utc | 20

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 14:06 utc | 3

Turkye leader (the Sultan) dreams about becoming - again - the protector of the faithful in Jerusalem.
Russian acceptation of this as fact (One Ottoman State in Palestine) would allow for some win-win solution to the Syrian conundrum.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Dec 14 2023 16:04 utc | 21

Just learned of an app called NoThanks which allows you to scan barcodes and look up companies that make products that need boycotting

Just checked it's on the Google Play Store. Don't know about iOS.

Posted by: Delhiliterally | Dec 14 2023 16:09 utc | 22

https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-aide-israel-taking-steps-to-protect-civilians-that-even-us-might-not-have/

Israel bejaving far better than the majority of people here would in their place.

But then again, the majority of the people here write from Gaza City, so this is par for the course.

Posted by: Augusto Pi | Dec 14 2023 16:12 utc | 23

The “China” news outlets have dropped all Gaza/Israeli reporting. Indicates China, as best “political” bank to initiate and force 2-State solution via political maneuvers, isn’t going to spend political capitol on the issue.

Russia has offered to build a Gaza hospital. Articles & focus on Gaza/Israel that are available are mainly information sharing, and have a sense of “we’ve said and done all we can at every level”.

It would appear that the 2 strongest nations will not spend and political capital or will to bring Palestinian Statehood to pass.

They’ve chosen to leave it to the Arab world & Turkey to deal with US/Israel. No judgement, just stating facts.

Like Ukraine. I keep reading US nonsense about all the plots and machinations US and Israel are cooking up to both “end the war” & what they’re gonna do with all the Palestinian land to “ensure Israel’s security”.

Personally, I think all of them are “comfortable” atm, and sleepwalking now into WW3. Not trying to be dramatic, it just feels like the calm before the storm.

The heightened “danger” of it all has seemed to be lulled back to complacency.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 16:14 utc | 24

What's that pinochet, you say you are writing from Gaza City? Are you raping Palestinian women and murdering old people and babies?

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 16:16 utc | 25

Posted by: Augusto Pi | Dec 14 2023 16:12 utc | 23

The Biden aide is lying, obviously. It can be disproved.

Posted by: laguerre | Dec 14 2023 16:24 utc | 26

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 14:07 utc | 4

Unbelievable. Someone shot a cruise missile at the pentagon. Mossad can’t do that. CIA? I seriously doubt they have a missile force. This was an internal coup with associated foreign elements such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, possibly Pakistan. The latter two likely mostly used for funds and patsies and cutouts, with the former leading the propaganda blitz after the event.

Alternative option is a near peer state had penetrated the security state of USA and knew of the various drills and exercises scheduled for that that and gave a punch to the lone superpower to send it off on its mad dash to hemorrhage blood and gold and prestige. 9/11 came after the show of force of USA (to everyone) in Iraq and Serbian wars. Initially US presidents were making nice globalist noises (c.f. Bush in his televised rapturous address of a New World Order and UN ..) but then after the show of force in Serbia and Iraq a bunch of people were making assertions of US *dominance*. So the possibility of near peer state(s) — possibly and likely nominal industrial allies — doing the deed is also on the table.

One thing is clear. George Bush the lesser was scared shitless in Florida. He was so scared he didn’t event realize the book was upside down. That is a data point to keep in mind.

Posted by: robinthehood | Dec 14 2023 16:30 utc | 27

That Palestinian Jew by the name of Yehoshua, who was murdered by his compatriots, pulled no punches when confronting the Jewish religious-political status quo of his day (and he was not being anti-Semitic, he was being honest and truthful) with these words (words that ring true 2,000 years on, but this time they also apply to Western leaders who profess to 'follow him':

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.” John 8:44-45

They disguise themselves as wise but are like their namesake, corrupt and wicked inside. They deceive the people of God into sin, just like the serpent in the garden deceived Adam and Eve.

Posted by: Geraint ap Iorwerth | Dec 14 2023 16:36 utc | 28

Regarding the US: At some point Goliath is going to get out of the headlock David has put him in.

Posted by: phenon | Dec 14 2023 16:37 utc | 29

So there was this Questions & Answers session today with Putin...

Why make a big deal about (possibly, and only if Israel allows it) opening (building) a hospital in Gaza while people are still being murdered? Dead people don't need a hospital but I'm sure the starving can starve a few more months while the construction takes place (sarcasm!).

Misdirection of a guilty conscience? What happened to the Siege of Leningrad talk?

Talk about stopping the murders! Stop the genocide! You don't have to do it alone. You can shut down Israeli airspace from outside its borders, you could even simply position yourself and then threaten it. But that would entail treating Israel as the war-criminal it is and that's very obviously off the table for reasons undisclosed (criminal behind the scenes influence says the internet at large).

Did Biden bite and infect Putin or something? You know; with the clown virus :P Where did the old Putin and Lavrov go? They would have made a show of such incongruous grandstanding if it was "the west", oh wait; they actually do that too while saying this stuff.

Ouch, that must hurt. The hypocrisy is so razor sharp.

I don't accept this, I will never accept this, and don't see why any human should. This is like a poor reenactment of Cold War intrigue where all sides are nothing but a bunch of shits (Erdos was right! Uncle Sam and uncle Joe —nowadays it would be uncle Samantha and uncle Josephine). Mock the world to shame.

Clearly nothing is allowed to interfere with genocide as far as the US, the EU, NATO, and the Russian Federation is concerned.

Come on China, lay down the law.

Are UN members aware that they are expected to uphold international law when others don't?

If nobody does then there is no longer any "international law" and "the west" have gotten their "rules-based order" for free.

Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I did not see this coming at all.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 14 2023 16:45 utc | 30

pq | Dec 14 2023 14:54 utc | 13
Thank you for your reintroduction of sanity.

It has become inevitable that whenever US or US allied forces suffer a surprise defeat some people cope with their trauma by proving to themselves that it was all part of the plan- an inside job, a trap into which the stupid Arabs, or whoever it was, fell easily.
And the final proof is always cited in the form of the 'success' of the imperial response. As in the success of the US in Afghanistan or the triumph in Iraq, which has changed everything (except that it hasn't).

And now the proof that Hamas was tricked into its attacks on October 7th is said to be the 'success' of Israel's war on Gaza.

Whye should adjourn these discussions (of 9/11 and October 7) to the Week in Review general thread where people like librul and Paul can conspire away at their leisure.
Until they realise that, if the zionists really were accessories to the Hamas attacks, they made a fatal mistake. That will be obvious when the Israeli regime collapses and negotiations for a Palestinian state resume.
Just as Hamas planned.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 14 2023 16:59 utc | 31

Is Israel threatening the use of its nuclear weapons to prevent the intervention of any State in Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians?

It is necessary to be very careful in controlling a deranged religious lunatic with nuclear weapons.

Siege, boycott, and isolation are the safest options.

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Dec 14 2023 17:03 utc | 32

The Prime Minister of Israel said about 9/11 ‘It’s good for Israel.’ He must have thought the same about October 7. Israel is run by unnamed monsters.

Posted by: Quentin | Dec 14 2023 17:05 utc | 33

Posted by: robinthehood | Dec 14 2023 16:30 utc | 27

I totally understand your disbelief and agree dubya was clueless, combination of plausible deniability and honestly I think he would have never agreed to it.
Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, Silverstein, Dov Zakheim (Flight Termination Systems) zionists one and all.
Hell even the civil trial judge Hellerstein, another zionist, was probably privy.
CIA has access to everything the DOD does, remember in Syria the DOD-backed ISIS groups were fighting the CIA-backed ones for a bit?

I have posted this a few times on other threads:
Christopher Bollyn many years ago explained the who and why of 9/11. The how would be a really nice thing to know (DEW - directed energy weapon likely) though.

https://bollyn.com/about-christopher-bollyn/
https://youtu.be/ryG86S0sbW4?si=HANRo7VHrAef1SJO
https://youtu.be/qOq-LbQ4erM?si=wjWV4nG1XIPR4Jce

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 17:05 utc | 34

OT Ottomans.

Ottomans? What a joke, the Ottomans was a disaster for those they "lorded over" no different than any other past and current empire.

Most of the middle east/west Asia already hate the duplicitous Turks as it is and would like them to get out and stay off their land (Syria anybody?).

Turkey only exists due to Ataturk; it had been agreed that the country would be completely broken up, more so than what happened to Germany, but Ataturk managed to change that.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 14 2023 17:06 utc | 35

pq 13

I suggest you go to India and investigate organ harvesting and general Israeli tourist arrogance before you decide Israel is honest. Or you could marry a Zionist . I don't have a TV . Isn't it enough to hear reports of Israel testing new radioactive bombs on innocent women and children to understand that Israelis are totally unhinged? If the shenanigans of Shimon Baghdadi Elliot and John FcCain weren't enough ?

Posted by: Giyane | Dec 14 2023 17:07 utc | 36

Turkye leader (the Sultan) dreams about becoming - again - the protector of the faithful in Jerusalem.
Russian acceptation of this as fact (One Ottoman State in Palestine) would allow for some win-win solution to the Syrian conundrum.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Dec 14 2023 16:04 utc | 21

+++++++++++++++++++

Re a potential role for Turkey in resolving the crisis in Palestine: Recall that the whole thrust of Arab and Palestinian national movements B.Z. (before Zionism) was to THROW OFF the yoke of Turkish control over Arabs. The British promised the Arabs that they would break up the Ottoman Empire and support the Arabs' nationalist aspirations. That included the Palestinians'. They broke these promises and thus created the whole 75-year mess.

So, I should think the idea of Turkey's having a central role now over Palestine might also bring shudders to Palestinian hearts. I have no idea how Palestinian Christians felt about the Turkish overlords.

The Russians are not dumb. They must see this enormous historical irony if they support Turkey's role as a savior or deal maker or sponsor for Palestine or any Arab states or would-be states.

Or, am I completely wrong about this? Is potential Turkish control over Palestine a non-issue fr Arabs at this point?

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 17:12 utc | 37

Ottomans? What a joke, the Ottomans was a disaster for those they "lorded over" no different than any other past and current empire.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 14 2023 17:06 utc | 35

Quite wrong, the Ottomans were very successful for the longest time. Just the Greeks and Balkan peoples were extremely bitter about losing out to a Muslim state, about their own failure; so you hear all this stuff about the Ottomans being a disaster, when they were in fact very successful.

The Ottomans started declining in the 17th century when they started keeping the princes who didn't become sultan in a cage in the harem, which meant that new sultans could be appointed, who had no experience of the world or of politics, there being no law of primogeniture.

Posted by: laguerre | Dec 14 2023 17:21 utc | 38

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 17:12 utc | 37

I do not think that anyone is discussing Turkish "control" over Palestine, but mediation of the conflict or a role in spearheadings some sort of sanctions or breaking of the Gaza blockade.

Turkiye generally has had reasonably good relations recently with Israel, at least until the bombing of Gaza. It also has some leverage, with Azerbaijan, over Israeli Oil imports, something like 40%, not to mention other trade.

It also has good relations with Hamas, given Erdoğan is a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Ottomans were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews in Palestine, and all the Abraham religions generally got along in Palestine. The coming of the Zionists at the end of the 19th century kind of upset this. It was largely the European imperialists and their active promotion of ethnic nationalism, as well as the Ottoman general decline that created problems in Ottoman lands.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 14 2023 17:24 utc | 39

"European police have foiled a major Hamas plot to attack Jewish sites across the continent, with seven suspected members of the terror group arrested in raids in Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands.

The Hamas operatives were told to bring a cache of weapons, buried at an undisclosed location in Europe, to Berlin to attack Jewish institutions, German prosecutors said."

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 17:25 utc | 40

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 17:12 utc | 37

The Arabs were not that keen on throwing off Ottoman domination, less than the British wanted anyway. Arab nationalism was only nascent before the first world war. The Ottoman sultan was also the caliph, the successor of the Prophet, and leader of Sunni Islam. Many stuck with that, and if it hadn't been for Turkish nationalism, no doubt they would have stayed with the Ottomans.

Posted by: laguerre | Dec 14 2023 17:27 utc | 41

RT
People in the Palestinian enclave are “desperate, hungry, and terrified,” the UN organization’s refugee chief has warned.

Israel has won, no matter what we think.

Posted by: zorge | Dec 14 2023 17:28 utc | 42

In 2006 the IDF invaded Lebanon after an obvious false-flag "security failure" at
the border (what a coincidence!). [The IDF publicly admit to the 2006 "security failure",
so don't argue with me about that.] [I'll post details about the false-flag (once again!) if
you ask nice and buy a round.]

The above was just intro to a point I wanted to make.
In 2006 Olmert's generals had him believing that Hezbollah could just
be obliterated from the air. That was the plan going in.
As we all know now the air force couldn't get the job done, so Olmert's generals
sent in the troops. The Zionist entity learned a bitter lesson. They didn't
have the "right stuff".

One has to wonder if Netanyahu's generals had him believing that the air force
could stampede the Palestinian women and children south and then out to Egypt.
Didn't work so now IDF coffins are piling up.

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 17:31 utc | 43

I could imagine a plan here. Poison Gaza with depleted Uranium ( or not so depleted) Pump saltwater, wreck the wells, ruin everything else. Make it non-viable. Kill as many as possible in the meantime.

Let EU/US get tired of the whole mess and then keep pushing emigration to elsewhere as a "humanitarian" measure in diplomatic circles. Chutzpah, yes, after ruining it all but it could work regardless in a world of short attention spans that quickly wearies of well doing. I understand there is evidence of Netanyahu actually supporting Hamas previously (and cynically) and getting away with it. Compared to that head exploding standard, anything can be done.

Posted by: Eighthman | Dec 14 2023 17:31 utc | 44

Speaking of Turkey, has anyone seen updates on the Freedom Flotilla?

From 11/21:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231121-1000-boats-to-leave-turkiye-for-gaza-waters-in-new-freedom-flotilla/

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 17:31 utc | 45

@Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 16:14,

Rather strange of you to state Chinese media is not covering events in Gaza anymore. Whilst, its fair to say Chinese media is focusing more on Asia Pac. (nothing new there) the fact remains in Thursday's Regional edition of China Daily we have two linked Gaza related news items - China Daily obviously is one of China's English medium news outlets and is keen to paint a positive face on the People's Republic, much of which is deserved from my vantage point in the Hong Kong SAR.

Given China still has memories of what Japan did in Manchuria Beijing ain't keen on Genocide, nor is the general population and that includes many of us in Hong Kong.

Posted by: Chris Rogers | Dec 14 2023 17:35 utc | 46

Comments about other participants here raping and murdering are beyond the pale.

Posted by: morongobill | Dec 14 2023 17:37 utc | 47

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 17:31 utc | 45

Actually, I have not seen anything in the Turkish media about a flotilla at all, print or TV. I live in Istanbul, and would not know where it was supposed to embark from. I suspect, it is just at the discussion stage - somewhere.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 14 2023 17:38 utc | 48

Jonathan W(eissman?) @ 17:25

You may be a bit indiscriminate, or should we blame that on those German pro$ticutors.

We must ever bear in mind that Germany remains an occupied land, as the U$$A and the UK have never offered a peace treaty to any German government since the surrender by Admiral Doenitz to Allied forces on May 8,1945...that's a matter of decades where American occupational forces, sporting nuclear armaments have had their say over any and all German governments.

Point is that these bassturds running the Collective West are past masters at false-flag attacks and in setting up targeted individuals and groups to commit acts which land them in hot water. So can we accept those accounts you reference as actually being objective and truthful?

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2023 17:46 utc | 49

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 16:14 utc | 24

They’ve chosen to leave it to the Arab world & Turkey to deal with US/Israel. No judgement, just stating facts.


Both Russia and China have good reasons not to get involved as mediators or peacemakers.

- Fundamentally this conflict is a western creation and as such a western problem

- US wants the lead role in the area so why not leave it it to them?

- Both Russia and China don't have good options to solve this conflict

- Any solution will need boots on the ground, this can easily turn into a quagmire

- Any solution or improvement will need buy in from local parties.
This works only once bad choices become palatable, this in turn requires simple options and hopes to be exhausted for all parties

- Russia is in an existential conflict, Gaza and Israel are not central to this. Latakia and Iran are the exception

- Letting the world see US and UN conflicted and failing furthers multipolarity and helps the future BRICS system

- Western eyes on this conflict allow to buy time to prepare for future direct conflicts

- Better to act through proxies than direct action. Proxies have to watch out for Samson nukes so nothing too radical is on the table

- Proxy action has to be secret and secret implies slow.

- In a chess game positioning is key. Surrounding Israel with enough fronts and arms but below hot conflict will exeret pressure but not escalate into WW3
The smartest strategy would be to slowly change the balance of power

- Something needs to give here, Israels strength or Arab resolve. Russia or China can not force either

- Sometimes the best way to help is to mediate. To do so requires the third party to not be party to the conflict

Posted by: SOS | Dec 14 2023 17:47 utc | 50

Israel bejaving far better than the majority of people here would in their place.

But then again, the majority of the people here write from Gaza City, so this is par for the course.

Posted by: Augusto Pi | Dec 14 2023 16:12 utc | 23

What is the point in denying Israel is committing war crimes when Israel is openly saying it did not wait "2500 years" to be told what it can do? Somehow the 2500 years is supposed to show Israel has been playing this game longer than anyone else so shut up kids. Didn't Mussolini say the same about Italy?

The "Gaza City" makes as little sense as everything else you write, which makes it particularly enjoyable, thanks.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 17:48 utc | 51

What hold does Israel have over the US?

Is it blackmail or bribery?

Do they have their nukes pointed at us or a territory of use to the US?

Posted by: Laura Roslin | Dec 14 2023 15:27 utc | 16

It is a bit of both. The Epsteins and Maxwells of the world get politicians in sketchy situations like sexual trysts with young boys and blackmail them. Or bribe them.

According to the Samson option Israel has nukes pointed their enemies yet I believe that also target New York, London, Paris etc if Israel ever has an existential threat Samson pulls them all down..

"In 2012, in response to Günter Grass's poem "Was gesagt werden muss" ("What Must Be Said") which criticized Israel's nuclear weapons program, Israeli poet and Holocaust survivor Itamar Yaoz-Kest published a poem entitled "The Right to Exist: a Poem-Letter to the German Author" which addresses Grass by name. It contains the line: "If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth—let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness." Jerusalem Post journalist Gil Ronen saw this poem as referring to the Samson Option, which he described as the strategy of using Israel's nuclear weapons, "taking out Israel's enemies with it, possibly causing irreparable damage to the entire world."[38]"

Posted by: canuck | Dec 14 2023 17:53 utc | 52

Considerable evidence on this blog that Israeli thinking is siloed. Simply brute force with no thought to collateral damage as well as long term consequences - now using mercenaries because vaunted IDF are side stepping conscription by fleeing the country (how many eligible conscripts in the 500,000+ who have left the country?) - the Hannibal doctrine murder of their own soldiers throughout this encounter is a contributing factor. Use of tactical nukes in Gaza suggested by Helmer is also problematic for Israel since they do produce nuclear fallout (particularly if considerable use) and the range is 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile on a windless day; if there are considerable off shore winds, the range can be expected to be greater. Thus not only fouling Gaza, particularly the north strip, but also Israel with the same genetic consequences.
Finally, although I have seen only passing comment on this - Netanyahu's response to the UN GA resolution for a ceasefire was to declare war on the West Bank, decrying the Palestine Authority as Hamastan, alleging that it posed an equal threat to Israel security as Gaza. Again, the clarion call for complete ethnic cleansing of the non Jewish from Israel. Although not overtly mentioned, this includes any and all Christians as has been evident in Gaza. Hence strong commentary by Pope that USUKIS actions are terrorism. Evangelicals seemed to have missed this bit of the conflict.

Posted by: abierno | Dec 14 2023 17:56 utc | 53

Zorge @1728

"Israel has won" you insist. True that their genocidal policy against the Palestinian people, most of whom are descended from innocents whose land was stolen in the bloody Nakba, perpetrated by Talmudist terrorists...are rolling along merrily with over 20,000 deaths (if we consider all those who lie covered in the rubble of their homes) and wounded physically more than 50,000 and those mentally damaged for more than a single lifetime quite possibly in the hundreds of thousands.

Thus I would agree that the terror campaign of genocide has been highly successful for the Zionist Entity and their Talmudist Agenda. However, there is another side to the equation..Hamas and the other freedom fighter groupings. They are still ensconced in perhaps over a thousand miles of tunnels, some of them more than 200 feet underground. They have taken very few casualties as compared with the soft Israeli conscripts/reservists. KIA figures are minimized by Israeli propaganda. However, it is highly probable that have mounted to over a thousand killed. Wounded troops have jammed hospitals in Occupied Palestine. The numbers of deserters and mentally shattered are also skyrocketing.

To date, Hamas and affiliates/allies are winning militarily against the invading land-thieves.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2023 17:56 utc | 54

I have no idea how Palestinian Christians felt about the Turkish overlords.
The Russians are not dumb.
Or, am I completely wrong about this? Is potential Turkish control over Palestine a non-issue fr Arabs at this point?
Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 17:12 utc | 37

You are wrong. Try not to make a distinction between Christian and Muslim Arabs and Palestinians. The problem was the bribery of the leadership during the Ottoman rule. It was the evil and hinterhaeltig British that bribed some of the higher positioned Arab to betray their people.
Turkish control is perhaps the only solution as the Arab leadership wants to keep their diapers clean. Again it was the British that brought the division to West Asia, and it goes on and on with them even in Ukraine. As for Russia and China they are obviously and understandably scared. At least China is not being hypocritical.

Posted by: Joey | Dec 14 2023 17:56 utc | 55

Posted by: Eighthman | Dec 14 2023 17:31 utc | 44

I understand there is evidence of Netanyahu actually supporting Hamas previously (and cynically) and getting away with it.

Apart from Netanyahu's bragging that everyone is referring to, is there any evidence for that?

Posted by: scanalyse | Dec 14 2023 17:56 utc | 56

House Passes $886 Billion Defense Policy Bill.

Yes it is called a DEFENSE bill to make everone feel better. Offense is the best defense.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 17:57 utc | 57

“But then again, the majority of the people here write from Gaza City, so this is par for the course.”

Posted by: Augusto Pi | Dec 14 2023 16:12 utc | 23

Sure, we’re all at the local Gazan pub slamming beer’s down watching IDF soldiers getting blown up by our heroic resistance fighters. 🍻 so bad is Israeli forces getting whacked they had to steal our 70 doctors to go treat IDF 1000’s…

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 18:01 utc | 58

"Netanyahu's response to the UN GA resolution for a ceasefire was to declare war on the West Bank, decrying the Palestine Authority as Hamastan"

That is the thanks the PA got for being Israel's docile lapdog. As they say: never again.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 18:01 utc | 59

SOS@ 1747

Incisive and well stated. Thanks.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2023 18:01 utc | 60

Not convinced at all Russia is doing nothing. Officially they do humanitarian actions and diplomacy only...
Less officially, I'm pretty sure all the "little brothers" are providing weapons to whoever can bully the US or it's proxies in the region.
"That's some nice PG-7VR you got there, want moar ? Banderist don't show in armor theses days and we can't get why..."

Posted by: Savonarole | Dec 14 2023 18:01 utc | 61

It's like all of those people who talk about war crimes and justice. A comfortable delusion that there is a system and that truth matters to the institutional mechanisms designed and controlled by the corrupt.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Dec 14 2023 15:53 utc | 20

I agree.
Official bodies are corrupt.

Justice comes when the criminal is their own undoing.
They go broke and lose power for all the reasons and overplay their hand as is happening now.

The battle of Good and Evil is being waged and Satan's army is not going to win.

The court of justice is humanity in growing numbers across the globe. Millions of people defying their fascist government laws and taking to the streets.

Humanity is not going quietly into the night.

The world is speaking in unison and saying no.

I felt it in spades on a bridge in Windsor freezing our asses off facing an army standing with a bunch of truckers. Empowerment.

I saw it when the Dutch farmers spraying manure and slaughtering their cows on govenment buildings said no.
A righteous force attracts numbers. People need/want a beacon worth following.

The sacrifice of innocents has driven a stake through the vampire's heart and this bloodsucking cult has passed the pinnacle of its power as the hegemon flails and flounders the ROW will shun these monsters.

Many more will die.

Posted by: ld | Dec 14 2023 18:04 utc | 62

g @ 1758

Such a Pizza Chit, you are. A combination of pilpul and pettifoggery is your M.O. Clearly, you rank among the more disciplined of the $ayanim or are an Anti-Defecation League activist. Your "hate consumes" is evidently self-referent.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2023 18:08 utc | 63

"....someone breaks into a house, rapes the mother, tortures two of the children, shoots the father in the head, and kidnaps the grandmother and a baby... after he commits this crime, then goes and kills this man’s entire family, all of his children, all of his friends, members of his church congregation and random neighbors who happened to live near him.
On top of this, also murdered this man’s parents a few years ago before he committed his crime."

Wow, thanks g....that's the best analogy of israel I've seen in years!

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 18:10 utc | 64

Anti-Defecation League?
OMG
I am dying here
Thanks for making me spew my coffee.

Posted by: ld | Dec 14 2023 18:11 utc | 65

Id @1804:

A true "Cri de Coeur". You lay it out clearly and tellingly. Thanks.

Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 14 2023 18:11 utc | 66

For me, one of the aspects of Israeli ethnic/religious, nationalist supremacy overlooked is the adoption of Hebrew as the national spoken language of Israel. Hebrew was lost as a spoken language long ago when the peoples of the Levant adopted Aramaic but continued to be used as a liturgical language by the priests of the Jewish religion. Religious belief is clung to tightly by all peoples, who are willing to suffer many indignities, prejudice, and even martyrdom as evidence of their faith in whatever deity or religious doctrine they follow. The adoption of Hebrew as a national spoken language by the mostly Eastern Europeans who were the original migrants to Palestine, rather than Yiddish, the language of the Jews in Europe, contains a kernel of the reasons for their inability to countenance any compromise with the people they have displaced or even with the people who subsidize their state and military. A language not used since around 600 BCE will not have evolved with the cultural and civilizational changes which has occurred over the past 3000 years despite the incorporation of new words and grammar. Interestingly, Aramaic is said to have been adopted by the Hebrews as a spoken language after the exile by the Assyrians. The Assyrians are best known, besides their monumental ruins, for their cruelty against conquered peoples. They are considered the first empire to exile other peoples from their own land. An example the Israelis follow in their attempt to force exile on Palestinians since 1948.

Adopting Hebrew as a spoken language encompasses the authority of the priests and the governing class who continued to use it. An authority attained directly from the deity who 'chose' the descendants of Abraham as His people, explaining the intransigence of the current ruling class and their subjects in Israel. Fascinatingly, many American evangelical churches offer Hebrew classes to their congregations, expanding the supremacy given by Lil' YWHY to the new 'chosen' people of another deity claimed to be their savior. American evangelicals support the Israeli mass murder of Palestinians as a means for His return and the establishment of their Kingdom.

Posted by: Wilikins | Dec 14 2023 18:13 utc | 67

One has to wonder if Netanyahu's generals had him believing that the air force
could stampede the Palestinian women and children south and then out to Egypt.
Didn't work so now IDF coffins are piling up.

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 17:31 utc | 43

It could have been that Israel figured that once Uncle Sugar put the finger on Egypt they would fold and open the border presto: 2 Million refugee camp in the Sinai .

I think sometimes we amateurs give more credence for 'plans', 'strategies' when, probably, most of the actions are ad hoc reactions ..

Posted by: canuck | Dec 14 2023 18:14 utc | 68

Emphasizing Turkiye as the savior of the Palestinians will put pressure on the Arab states to step up instead. Palestinians are after all Arabs, not Turks.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 14 2023 18:25 utc | 70

Posted by: Joey | Dec 14 2023 17:56 utc | 55

The Turks are not interested in "controlling" Gaza. They may act as part of a UN peace keeping force with other nations, but they won't want to administer Gaza, or "control" it themselves. That is a non-starter.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 14 2023 18:28 utc | 71

Posted by: Wilikins | Dec 14 2023 18:13 utc | 68

What is also interesting is that the two books of Maccabees, a foundational document of the "2500 years of Israel", does not exist in Hebrew but in Greek.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 18:40 utc | 72

The people killed by Hamas had nothing to do with the 1948 decision by Britain.

Posted by: g | Dec 14 2023 17:58 utc | 58

1. The people killed by HAMAS were more central to the occupation than the IDF combatants themselves:

1.1 In an occupation the colonizing army is needed to kill and subjugate natives and maintain military control.
1.2 However, once that has been achieved the colonization cannot be maintained without settlers and non-combatants.
1.3 In essence no colonial occupation can be sustained or even achieved without non-combatant settlers (nominally and erroneously called "civilians)
1.4 Therefore it follows that the non-combatant portion of a settler colonial occupation is the greater part of the colonizing effort.
1.5 Therefore it follows that the military (combatant) portion of the settler colonial occupation is the lesser part of the colonizing effort.

(Historical Precedent: French colonization of Algeria)

Hence:

Convention-0000 of the Fair World Order:

Principle a): The term "civilian" does not apply to any part of a settler colonial occupation. The correct term to apply to non-combatants engaged in settler colonialism is simply "occupiers" since they are actively engaged in the act of "occupation".

Principle b): Since these "occupiers" (referenced in Principle a)) inflict the bulk of the injustice of occupation upon the native population (being active in the actual theft and dispossession of land and removal of it's cultural and ethnic character) it follows that any resistance carried out by native population should equally, or to an even greater degree, be carried out against the non-combatant component of the occupation.

Principle c): The intent and effectiveness of Principle a) and Principle b) is to levy an extreme price on the practice of settler colonialism and thereby act as a deterrent to future colonial acts: The assurance that all supporters, facilitators and executors of settler colonialism, regardless of the means of these actions (whether by military or other means) will be legal targets of resistance in perpetuity should provide a deterrent effect, or a means of redress once the enforcement of Convention-0000 is in effect.

Provision 1 of Convention-0000: Children of the Settler Occupier

Provision 1.1: Children of the settler occupiers are essentially human shields brought onto an active battlefield. These children are to be regarded as victims of occupation and all efforts made to remove them from the battlefield by the occupier.
Provision 1.2: Should settler occupier children be harmed as a collateral effect of carrying out resistance actions the judgement and penalty will be levied against the settler occupiers responsible for placing those children in harm's way.
Provision 1.3: Should settler occupier children exceed the age of minority and remain on the active battlefield it shall reasonably be assumed that they have consented to the practice of settler occupation and shall be subject to Principles a) b) and c).

Provision 2 of Convention-0000: Employees of the Settler Occupier

Provision 2.1: Contracted Employees of the Settler Occupier shall be regarded as willing participants in the process of settler occupation. The evidence of consent is to be represented by the contract signed by the employee.

Provision 3 of Convention-0000: Slaves of the Settler Occupier

Provision 3.1: Provision 1.1 of Convention-0000 apply to slaves or forced labour used by the settler occupier to facilitate an occupation.
Provision 3.2: With the addition: Should slave be granted freedom and remain on the active battlefield it shall reasonably be assumed that they have consented to the practice of settler occupation and shall be subject to Principles a) b) and c).

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 14 2023 18:41 utc | 73

@Eighthman | Dec 14 2023 18:23 utc | 70
posted a link
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12

The calculus — the Times* reported on Sunday, citing Israeli officials, Netanyahu's critics, and the man's own reported statements — was to keep Hamas strong enough to counteract the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, allowing Netanyahu to avoid a two-state peace solution and keep both sides weak.

..that would be The New York Times*, right?

...To keep Hamas propped up, Netanyahu's government worked with Qatari to keep the money* flowing, the New York Times reported. Israel knew that Qatar was supporting Hamas, but didn't oppose the payments and even lobbied American lawmakers not to sanction Qatar.

In 2018, Netanyahu's administration came up with a plan, according to the New York Times. As part of a peace agreement with Hamas, Qatar would bring millions into Gaza to distribute to Gazan families, the outlet reported.

"... to keep the money* flowing..."
Where did that money came from? Not a word about that, apart from that Qatari diplomat(s) would bring millions into Gaza.

Israeli security officials would meet with a Qatari diplomat at the border between Israel and Jordan, according to the New York Times report.

They would then drive him past the border crossing and into Gaza, according to the outlet.

Though the money was meant for Gazan civilians, Western intelligence determined that Hamas was taking money from the funds to use themselves, the outlet reported.

Al that "according to the New York Times report"..."citing Israeli officials, Netanyahu's critics, and the man's own reported statements".

OK then. All kosher here.

Posted by: scanalyse | Dec 14 2023 18:55 utc | 74

If Mossad (with CIA support) could pull off 9/11, 10/7 was a piece of cake.

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 14:07 utc | 4 (and librul's post)

If I had to bet on the answer, and if it was based on all classified documents being leaked or otherwise obtained, my money on 9/11 (and JFK, perhaps OK City) is that Mossad has infiltrated (including sympathetic non-Mossad) the CIA to the degree that they're able to piggyback onto (or subvert/co-opt) training and simulation events/exercises in order to push them in the direction they desire. I guess that might qualify as "CIA support" in some cases.

But yes, Oct 07 was at least to SOME degree an "inside job" - Clearly, to say that it was COMPLETELY an inside job robs the agency from Hamas. I'm certain that Hamas did intend to incur into Israel that day, with the primary aim of taking numerous hostages which could be used as leverage. Mossad and Shin Bet had specific contemporary warnings and they had the blueprint/template in-hand for over a year. As we are gradually learning, a large number of the casualties from that day were so-called "friendly fire" (although with the Hannibal Doctrine informally invoked I suppose the word "friendly" doesn't have quite the same meaning as usual). To wit, the IDF has already admitted that they fired upon fellow Israeli civilians and they probably also fired on police and IDF in order to PREVENT Hamas from taking hostages - AND - in order to create the terror spectacle that has been rammed down the World's collective throats by the media and our governments in the time since. So, yes, it's very much reminiscent of 9/11 - and hell, they f*ckin' said as much outright: "This is our 9/11!"

I really don't understand how anyone who has actually been following this stuff for the last 23 years can't accept this - at least to some degree.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 14 2023 19:01 utc | 75

Posted by: Wilikins | Dec 14 2023 18:13 utc | 68j

Kinda like how Ukraine "adopted" (read: mandated) the use of Ukrainian and forbid the use of Russian in official communication/documentation. It's the fascists' template.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 14 2023 19:04 utc | 76

Posted by: Giyane | Dec 14 2023 17:07 utc | 36

Um...I did already say Israelis are unhinged.....maybe you confused me with someone else.

I know about the organ harvesting. Aside from all the other atrocities, today I read: excerpt

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6032/Israel-demolishes-Gaza-cemeteries,-confiscates-dead-bodies-of-Palestinians

Geneva -The Israeli army has repeatedly targeted several cemeteries in the Gaza Strip, leaving widespread destruction, vandalising some graves, and stealing dead bodies, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor said on Thursday.

According to Euro-Med Monitor field documentation, Israel’s army has targeted the majority of cemeteries in the Gaza Strip, including Al-Falujah cemetery in the northern Gaza Strip, Ali bin Marwan, Sheikh Radwan, Al-Shuhada, and Sheikh Shaaban cemeteries, in addition to St. Porphyrius Church cemetery in Gaza City and Al-Shuhada cemetery in the northern town of Beit Lahia, destroying dozens of graves in utter disregard for the sanctity of the dead.

Large holes have been created inside these cemeteries as a result of frequent Israeli attacks, engulfing dozens of graves. The remains of some dead bodies have been scattered or disappeared, while dozens of graves remain seriously damaged.

Euro-Med Monitor received reports confirming that the Israeli army dug up several graves in Al-Faluga cemeteryand stole dead bodies—believed to belong to Palestinian activists—amid fears that their organs might be stolen

Posted by: pq | Dec 14 2023 19:06 utc | 77

The Ottomans were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews in Palestine, and all the Abraham religions generally got along in Palestine. The coming of the Zionists at the end of the 19th century kind of upset this. It was largely the European imperialists and their active promotion of ethnic nationalism, as well as the Ottoman general decline that created problems in Ottoman lands.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 14 2023 17:24 utc | 39

=========

Thanks for the unnec. explanation of generally known facts (at least, by people here).

However, you neglected the main point:

What did the Arabs rebel against Ottoman rule and the Ottomans as protectors of Islam?
I mean, I assume that you have at least heard of Lawrence of Arabia!

And if they, the Arabs, rebelled 100 years ago, will they welcome Turkish activities now? What about Syria?

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:09 utc | 78

This is pure, sadistic, blatantly disingenuous evil:

"5. The fact there are casualties in Gaza is NOT a proper reason for Israel to stop its campaign. That it not how warfare works."

The Israeli government and IDF have stated openly and plainly that their campaign in Gaza is NOT about the precise warfare of elimination of Hamas. They have said openly and plainly, in no uncertain terms, that the goal is generalized destruction, which to anyone with a brain is easily translated to warfare on civilians and civilian infrastructure - with the stated goal of pushing the Palestinians out of Gaza once and for all.

To say "that there are casualties" in such a manner is a disgusting minimization and mischaracterization of what Israel is doing. Civilian casualties are the AIM, not an undesired or inconvenient consequence.

IOW, this is NOT "warfare" by any accepted and "legal" definition of the term. It violates numerous UN statutes, resolutions, definitions as well as is in direct contravention of precedents such as Nuremberg.

It is barbaric genocide/ethnic cleansing. g's constant whining about "hatred" is pure, putrid projection and nothing more.

g should do some deep introspective thinking before posting drivel like that again.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 14 2023 19:13 utc | 79

….. so bad is Israeli forces getting whacked they had to steal our 70 doctors to go treat IDF 1000’s…

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 18:01 utc | ……

Brilliant insight

Posted by: Exile | Dec 14 2023 19:16 utc | 80

The Turks are not interested in "controlling" Gaza.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 14 2023 18:28 utc | 72
'Control' is not the issue. The past does not replay for the Turks.

Posted by: Joey | Dec 14 2023 19:17 utc | 81

Joey @ 55
"Try not to make a distinction between Christian and Muslim Arabs and Palestinians. The problem was the bribery of the leadership during the Ottoman rule. It was the evil and hinterhaeltig British that bribed some of the higher positioned Arab to betray their people. "

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't make a distinction between Pal Christians and Pal Arabs. However, I believe that one of the issues, historically, WAS the leadership of Islam--the Turks' claim to do so and the Arabs' rejection of this leadership. So if the was a factor in Arab nationalism, then how Pal Christians who lived in Arab lands felt about this is a valid question, IMO. Since I am not a scholar of Islam I don't know the correct terminology to discuss leadership of the Umma, or whatever it is called.

I certainly do not question the perfidiousness/Hinterhaeltigkeit of Albion! However, I have not read that the British maneuvered to *create* the Arab Revolt.

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:18 utc | 82

Qatar helping cash to Hamas was mentioned by prince Faysal al Turki in a video posted by b here in October

Posted by: Minaa | Dec 14 2023 19:22 utc | 83

You don’t dig up graves to harvest organs, obviously. You destroy cemeteries to make yourself look like totally insane ghouls in a pathetic attempt to make people too frightened of your madness to get close enough to stop you. Just another of the sick and criminal STATED TACTICS of evil “israel”. Obliterating cemeteries also to erase history of the indigenous people.

Posted by: DuchessAndBob | Dec 14 2023 19:23 utc | 84

Bollyn is problematic for me. I agree with Michael Collins Piper's assessment.

Re: g's latest stream of textual diarrhea:

"You seem upset."

If so, then you seem irate and hysterical.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 14 2023 19:27 utc | 85

Or, am I completely wrong about this? Is potential Turkish control over Palestine a non-issue fr Arabs at this point?

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 17:12 utc | 37

On a recent Palestinian public opinion poll of which group is the most supportive to Palestinians, Turkey scored fairly high; Russia was even higher. I also understand that the people of the Levent, were not one of the countries seeking independence from the Ottoman Empire, it was imposed upon them. Life was relatively good under the Ottoman Empire for Arab and Jewish people, which is why the Ottomans felt very betrayed by the Arabs during WW1. When we speak of the cruelty of the Ottoman Empire, that cruelty seems primarily directed towards the Christians, but that is a complicated subject in the context of Christian Crusades, which apparently, is still going on today with great barbarity as seen in Christian Zionism. I am sure the Arab aristocracy with their unfathomable oil wealth braying about their independence would never succumb to Turkish rule, but I am not sure if the war-ravaged Somalians, Palestinians, Iraqis, Libyans, the persecuted Salafists subjects, or impoverished Egyptians feel the same way.

Posted by: Turk 152 | Dec 14 2023 19:34 utc | 86

However, I believe that one of the issues, historically, WAS the leadership of Islam--the Turks' claim to do so and the Arabs' rejection of this leadership.
Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:18 utc | 83

Try again. There is more than ample stuff on the net telling the facts about the British intrigues. Please look it up yourself before making a fool of yourself.

However, I have not read that the British maneuvered to *create* the Arab Revolt.
Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:18 utc | 83

Same answer. If not try this: Desert Exploration, Arabian Intrigue and the Rise of Ibn Sa'ud, Medina Publishing, 2019.
And read up on TE Lawrence (socalled Lawrence of Arabia).

Posted by: Joey | Dec 14 2023 19:35 utc | 87

Posted by: DuchessAndBob | Dec 14 2023 19:23 utc | 85

Ghoulish indeed, zionazis have a long track record of using corpses for punishment and control:

https://jacobin.com/2023/11/israel-palestine-gaza-corpse-politics-human-rights-mourning

"After Israeli forces shot and killed thirty-nine-year-old Fadi Samara in May of 2020, his mourning family dug him a grave in his village of Abu Qash, located in the occupied West Bank district of Ramallah.
But nearly four years later, his grave remains empty."

Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 14 2023 19:36 utc | 88


RE:Posted by: SOS | Dec 14 2023 17:47 utc | 50

“- Something needs to give here, Israels strength or Arab resolve. Russia or China can not force either”

* I wasn’t implying “force” An agreement, nudge to assert their position stronger… with the BRI project, BRICS, ect
Using their political/$$ clout, as well as their own resources to: Expel/suspend Israeli diplomats … impose temporary boycotts/sanctions…send flotilla of aid with military…ect

It’s not “against” Israel, it’s condemning war crimes that are currently being executed, punishing perpetrators.

“- Sometimes the best way to help is to mediate. To do so requires the third party to not be party to the conflict”

Israel does not want any form of “mediation” to occur.
The whole world understands this position of theirs.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 19:40 utc | 89

BREAKING

U.S. urges Israel to scale back ground war in Gaza by year’s end


The Biden administration wants Israel to adopt a more precise strategy in its war against Hamas, using smaller elite forces to rescue hostages, kill Hamas leaders and destroy tunnels, senior U.S. officials said.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 19:43 utc | 90

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:09 utc | 79

You need to read more carefully.

You state:
"What did the Arabs rebel against Ottoman rule and the Ottomans as protectors of Islam?
I mean, I assume that you have at least heard of Lawrence of Arabia!"

I pointed out previously,
"It was largely the European imperialists and their active promotion of ethnic nationalism"

Divide and conquer. Perhaps you have heard of this imperialist technique. T. E. Lawrence was a British agent, among others, putting it into practice. It is hardly a new concept. The Ottomans, particularly with their tolerance of people of the book, their Millet system, and the "capitulations", were quite ripe for the application of that technique.


Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Dec 14 2023 19:48 utc | 91

OT Ottomans.

Ottomans? What a joke, the Ottomans was a disaster for those they "lorded over" no different than any other past and current empire.

Most of the middle east/west Asia already hate the duplicitous Turks as it is and would like them to get out and stay off their land (Syria anybody?).

Turkey only exists due to Ataturk; it had been agreed that the country would be completely broken up, more so than what happened to Germany, but Ataturk managed to change that.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Dec 14 2023 17:06 utc | 35

Agree Ataturk changed the tide yet he made his mark in the Gallipoli campaign in 1915 which offensive was masterminded by Winston Churchill who was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time . Vice Admiral Carden was in charge of the naval campaign and was always , neurotically, second guessing himself-he didn't use his British dreadnoughts offensively which would have been proper (he was worried about losing his ships) which doomed the future land campaign.

Without the dithering Carden, the Dardanelles offensive may have worked and Ataturk might have not appeared in history-although such a capable fellow, like Caesar might have found a way.

If he hadn't what would the world look like today?

https://www.britishbattles.com/first-world-war/the-gallipoli-campaign-part-i-the-naval-attack-on-the-dardanelles/#:~:text=In%20a%20telegram%20sent%20on,Mediterranean%20to%20mount%20the%20attack.

Posted by: canuck | Dec 14 2023 19:59 utc | 92

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:09 utc | 79

This looks like a good read, I just picked it up thanks to your question...

The Great Syrian Revolt and the Rise of Arab Nationalism

"First, Provence recreates the Ottoman Empire context to show how the split between Syria's notables and its countryside people and the role of each of them in public life was reinforced by the Ottoman government. To start with, the sons of notables were sent to civil schools in the hope that they would become civil servants and eventually occupy leading positions in the state while the sons of the countryside and the less privileged were sent to the military school where they became military officers. This duality proved to be essential in the understanding of the Middle East region where half a dozen countries witnessed coups and the eventual creation of military dictatorships at the expense of the leadership of notable families. Provence also disputes earlier history records that show the notables as the heroes of the Syrian revolt where as in fact, the revolt was led by the more rural tribes.

Second, Provence rightly disputes the official version of the current Syrian regime about the revolt saying that the Alawite regime did not want to teach the history of this revolt as the alliance between the Sunnis and the Druzes in Syria while the Alawites of the north were relatively cooperating with the French. Instead, the Syrian regime account has it that the revolt was a number of mini revolts that occurred throughout Syria and in which the Alawites had a role.

Third, Provence very correctly depicts the Druze-Sunni alliance during the revolt as an alliance of interest. Unlike how the West views sects of the Middle East as monolithic blocs whose loyalties shift randomly, Provence proved that the Druze farmers of southern Syria had ties with the Sunni wheat merchants of Damascus, thus the political bond during the anti-French revolt in 1925 was the fruit of this trade bond."


"The nation of Syria had been under the rule of the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years when the British overran it at the end of the First World War and installed their client, Faisal, as King of the country. The same British had promised the French, several years earlier, that the region would fall to them at the end of the war, but now appeared to be reneging in favor of Faisal, who had helped capture Damascus. Faisal's reign was brief, however, in that the British retreated and left him to deal with the French, who didn't want him in power and in 1920 expelled him. The French then imposed a "High Commisioner" who proceeded to attempt to co-opt local leaders by appointing them to lower administrative posts in the country's administration. The idea was to get the elites invested in the status quo of French dominance, so that if there were any unrest those protesting would lack leaders. This was a good idea in theory, but in practice it didn't work: the elites thus recruited were mostly from the cities, and local regional sheikhs from the countryside stayed idle, and eventually rebelled.

The author makes the point that the rebellion incorporated several different elements of Syrian society, including not just Druze tribesmen but eventually more urbanized elites such as grain merchants and even a few community leaders. The result was a country-wide outbreak of banditry and violence, with inter-family feuds being resolved under the cover of the more pervasive violence that overwhelmed the counry. Many of the leaders of the rebellion were killed or exiled from the country for a decade, though a few were permanently expelled from the country, and didn't return at least until after the departure of the French."

Posted by: Turk 152 | Dec 14 2023 20:02 utc | 93

RE: Chris Rogers | Dec 14 2023 17:35 utc | 46

I appreciate the correction. I saw nothing In Global Times or Xihua. I’m glad they are still covering Gaza in other news outlets.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Dec 14 2023 20:04 utc | 94

I certainly do not question the perfidiousness/Hinterhaeltigkeit of Albion! However, I have not read that the British maneuvered to *create* the Arab Revolt.

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 19:18 utc | 83
++++++++++

However, I certainly can imagine that Britain might have fomented an Arab revolt in order to soften up the Ottoman Empire for later picking.

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 20:16 utc | 95

Posted by: canuck | Dec 14 2023 19:59 utc | 94

What exactly are the Ottomans? If you refer to the Arabs and the British historians of the 1850s, who crafted so much of what we call "History", the defining characteristic is Islam, and they are nomadic people from the Steppes of Asia. So, what is the story? Unil 1453, it was Christian Byzantine, inheritor of the Roman Empire, then it became Muslim Ottoman. Did the Ottomans have a giant vacuum cleaner in which they vacuumed up 18 million Byzantine subjects (we are not Zionists afterall) and replaced them with 18 million people from the steppes, or was there a changing of the guard, at the top and 10s of thousand or so elites and generals got replaced ny some Turks who were already there and an Arab Clergy? So, what is the Ottoman Empire, probably the bastard child of the Roman Empire. Do you really think that the Bastard Child of Rome cant run the Middle East?

Posted by: Turk 152 | Dec 14 2023 20:20 utc | 96

Israel’s Ambassador to the United Kingdom Tzipi Hotovely says Israel "knows" it must erase Palestine as a state.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Dec 14 2023 20:22 utc | 97

Posted by: Joey | Dec 14 2023 19:35 utc | 89

+++++++++++++++

It's funny. I haven't noticed your name on these recent threads about Palestine.

You are quite unpleasant.

Perhaps you have a hair up your ass.

Why don't you remove it before posting again.

Posted by: Jane | Dec 14 2023 20:26 utc | 98

Oh heck!
I just reread my post @1 and I had dropped some most essential pieces to the puzzle.
Sigh...

[updates in bold]

---

The Saker wrote, "anyone that doesn't know by now that September 11th was an inside job is stupid."

The Saker admitted that it had taken himself quite a while to come around on September 11th.

How long will it take people to recognize that Oct 7th was also an inside job?

---

Netanyahu wanted, long before October 7th, to seize all of Palestine.
Support by the Zionist masses for an outright ethnic cleansing of Gaza
was mixed, before October 7th.

--------
Can you put together these pieces? It really isn't that hard of a puzzle.
--------

It has been established that Mossad/IDF knew months in advance of Hamas' jail break plans.

Mossad has had spooks on the ground in Gaza for a very long time.

"Gaza is among the, if not the, most heavily surveilled strips of land on Earth, both from the air (satellite and drone surveillance)"

"The Zionist government controls all of Gaza’s borders in a total siege-style blockade. Nothing goes in or out without the state’s blessing"

"Months, if not years of planning went into the operation, including erecting a mock Israeli town inside of Gaza to use for practice. Israeli intelligence literally watched these training sessions from outposts on the border."
Again, "Israeli intelligence literally watched these training sessions from outposts on the border."

Mossad/IDF knew months in advance of Hamas' jail break plans in detail. In detail!

The IDF withdrew the majority of their troops around the Gaza border just in time for the jail break.
Key piece: The IDF withdrew the majority of their troops around the Gaza border just in time for the jail break.

Knowing the communication systems were a Hamas target were those systems hardened out of due diligence?
Knowing the communication systems were a Hamas target was redundancy of those systems created out of due diligence?

Who had the motive to bring down those communication systems? Both Hamas and their Mossad/IDF collaborators.
Who had the *greater* means to bring down those communication systems? Clearly, Mossad/IDF

The lengthy time lag before the IDF responded to the jail break is attributed **by the IDF** to the lose
of the communication systems. If you believe the IDF well you can ...

The IDF implemented the Hannibal Doctrine thus multiplying the number of casualties.
Mossad/IDF/Netanyahu benefited from the casualty count as they were able to create outrage and blood lust amongst the masses
and thus gain support for ethnic cleansing.

--------
Can you put together these pieces? It really isn't that hard of a puzzle.
--------

Solution: Mossad/IDF made use of Hamas' Oct 7th plan
incorporating it into their own Mossad/IDF plans,
a plan that guaranteed success for Hamas on Oct 7th
but gave license to Netanyahu to seek ethnic cleansing
thereafter.

---
quoted material from https://www.armageddonprose.com/vindicated-israeli-intelligence-knew-october-7-attack-plan-a-year-in-advance/

Posted by: librul | Dec 14 2023 20:29 utc | 99

I nominate Alice Wairimu Nderitu as the single most useless salary eater at the UN: she is the UN secretary-general’s special adviser on the prevention of genocide. She has been contacted by numerous rights groups etc. So it's not as if she is unaware.

She was quick to condemn Hamas and I note that she has served as an Auschwitz Institute for the Prevention of Genocide Instructor.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171029070521/https://www.auschwitzinstitute.org/profiles-in-prevention/alice-nderitu">https://www.auschwitzinstitute.org/profiles-in-prevention/alice-nderitu">https://web.archive.org/web/20171029070521/https://www.auschwitzinstitute.org/profiles-in-prevention/alice-nderitu

The original page has been removed

Ms. Nderitu attended AIPR’s Global Raphael Lemkin Seminar in November of 2014 and the Raphael Lemkin Seminar Alumni Meeting in June of 2016. (Auschwitz Institute for the Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities).

"However, in reality, all of those people are not killed in one day. They are killed gradually: two people here, five there, fifteen here, thirty there, and so on and so on, until these deaths begin to look normal. Then, one day, everyone realizes that a million people are dead and we have genocide on our hands. To stop the genocide of a million people, we must stop the deaths of a few that we often take for granted."

https://www.auschwitzinstitute.org/news/2023-global-raphael-lemkin-seminar

Between March 12-19, 2023, the Auschwitz Institute for the Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities (AIPG) made a long-awaited return to hosting our flagship Global Raphael Lemkin Seminar for Genocide Prevention on-site at the former German Nazi concentration and extermination camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau in Oświęcim, Poland, for the first time since 2019.

The Seminar was organized in partnership with the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, with assistance from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, sponsored by the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future," and supported by the German Federal Ministry of Finance. It also benefited from the support of the UN Office of Genocide Prevention and Responsibility to Protect, and the inspiring presence of special guest speaker and AIPG alumna, Ms. Alice Wairimu Nderitu, UN Special Adviser to the Secretary-General on the Prevention of Genocide.

The first two days of the 2023 Seminar were grounded in the “power of place” of Auschwitz-Birkenau....


Posted by: pq | Dec 14 2023 20:33 utc | 100

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