Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 18, 2023
Urging Ukraine To Sue For Peace

Larry Johnson has spotted one of the many signs that "the West" is giving up on its war in Ukraine:

This week’s “No Shit Analysis” award goes to Eugene B. Rumer for his Wall Street Journal op-ed, It’s Time to End Magical Thinking About Russia’s Defeat. Only took him 22 months to figure this out. He may be a slow learner but give him some credit, he finally awakened from his dream world and is beginning to grasp that the Ukraine project is swirling down the toilet.

Eugene B. Rumer is a Senior Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies, National Defense University, Washington DC. Previously, he served at the State Department, on the staff of the National Security Council and at RAND.

Despite his pedigree, he is struggling to acknowledge reality and still feels the need to spin nonsense. Here is an example:

Putin has reason to believe that time is on his side. At the front line, there are no indications that Russia is losing what has become a war of attrition. The Russian economy has been buffeted, but it is not in tatters. Putin’s hold on power was, paradoxically, strengthened following Yevgeny Prigozhin’s failed rebellion in June. Popular support for the war remains solid, and elite backing for Putin has not fractured.

Yep. Russia’s economy is so battered that it is headed toward 4% growth, its defense industry is out producing Europe and the United States combined, it is manufacturing new, more deadly drones and the stores across Russia are filled to the brim. If that is “battered” give me some.

More signs that the official foreign policy establishment is throwing the towel can be found in the current edition of Foreign Affairs. There the former head of the Council of Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, is urging the Biden administration to push the Ukraine towards negotiations:

Redefining Success in Ukraine – A New Strategy Must Balance Means and EndsForeign Affairs – Nov 17 2023

Well, yes, the U.S., NATO and the Ukraine have lost their war on Russia. Let's redefine that as victory and forget about the rest:

Ukraine’s counteroffensive appears to have stalled, just as wet and cold weather brings to a close the second fighting season in Kyiv’s effort to reverse Russian aggression. At the same time, the political willingness to continue providing military and economic support to Ukraine has begun to erode in both the United States and Europe. These circumstances necessitate a comprehensive reappraisal of the current strategy that Ukraine and its partners are pursuing.

Such a reassessment reveals an uncomfortable truth: namely, that Ukraine and the West are on an unsustainable trajectory, one characterized by a glaring mismatch between ends and the available means. Kyiv’s war aims—the expulsion of Russian forces from Ukrainian land and the full restoration of its territorial integrity, including Crimea—remain legally and politically unassailable. But strategically they are out of reach, certainly for the near future and quite possibly beyond.

The time has come for Washington to lead efforts to forge a new policy that sets attainable goals and brings means and ends into alignment. The United States should begin consultations with Ukraine and its European partners on a strategy centered on Ukraine’s readiness to negotiate a cease-fire with Russia and to simultaneously switch its military emphasis from offense to defense.

Defense like offense needs a certain balance of power. With a ten to one Russian superiority in artillery and air attack capability there is no way for Ukraine to hold onto any defense line. The following is thus mere fantasy:

Russia may well reject Ukraine’s offer of a cease-fire. But even if the Kremlin proves intransigent, Ukraine’s shift from offense to defense would limit the continuing loss of its soldiers, enable it to direct more resources to long-term defense and reconstruction, and shore up Western support by demonstrating that Kyiv has a workable strategy aimed at attainable goals. Over the longer term, this strategic pivot would make it clear to Russia that it cannot simply hope to outlast Ukraine and the West’s willingness to support it. That realization may eventually convince Moscow to move from the battlefield to the negotiating table—a move that would be to Ukraine’s ultimate advantage, since diplomacy offers the most realistic path for ending not only the war but also, over the long term, Russia’s occupation of Ukrainian territory.

That seems to presume that Russia will be done after completely taking the four oblast it has already integrated. That's not so:

In remarks at a recent meeting on November 3 on the eve of the National Unity Day with members of the federal and regional heads of civic chambers at the Victory Museum in Moscow, President Vladimir Putin repeated once again that Russia is “defending our moral values, our history, our culture, our language, including by helping our brothers and sisters in Donbass and Novorossiya to do the same. This is the key to today’s events.”

A noted political figure from Ukraine, Vladimir Rogov who used to be a lawmaker in Kiev reminded Putin with passionate intensity, “Believe me, we, people living in the southern part of Russia, which was cut off from its roots for 30 years, are, in fact, a storehouse of the Russian people’s historical forces, which was mothballed and could not make any efforts to regenerate our great Russia.”

Putin responded by underscoring the historical fact that Novorossiya constituted “the South Russian lands – all the Black Sea region and so on” that were founded by Catherine the Great after a series of wars with the Ottoman Empire.

Those Russian lands, which the Soviets – for no good reason- submitted to Soviet Ukrainian administration, will be repatriated.

The Biden administration knows that there is nothing it can do about that and that there is only little chance to provide Ukraine with the $30 billion it will need to finance next years deficit:

Penny Pritzker, US Special Representative for Ukraine’s Recovery, has suggested that officials imagine how the country could survive economically without US aid during her first visit to Ukraine.

Pritzker met with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the prime minister and government officials, the chairman of the parliament and American businesses. In addition, she even attended a congress of regional authorities together with Andrii Yermak, Head of the President's Office.

Ukrainska Pravda stated that her first visit to Ukraine had left "a rather disturbing aftertaste in many government offices" here.

One of the sources, familiar with the course of Pritzker's meetings, said that she tried to "lead [them] to the idea" of how Ukraine could survive economically without American aid.

With no more money coming in to be looted from, the corrupt officials of Ukraine will lose the ability to feed their greed. They will ask why they should fight a war, and endure the resulting hyper inflation (in Russian), when there is no way left to profit from it? (machine translation):

The [growth of the dollar exchange] rate will strongly depend on the volume and timeliness of international aid arriving in Ukraine. If indeed, as the financial authorities warn, the amount of external aid will be significantly less than planned in the budget (the Ministry of Finance says that at the moment the hole is $ 29 billion), then one of the most likely ways to solve the problem may be to devalue the hryvnia – so that the budget receives more hryvnia for incoming dollars and euros of international aid.

There will come a point in time for Russia to make on offer that the Ukrainian officialdom and people can not resist. Cheap gas, lots of trade in exchange for Ukrainian official acceptance of new Russian borderlines around Novorossiya as well as political and military neutrality.

This was inevitable.

Here is what I wrote on February 24, 2022, the day Russian troops first crossed the border to Ukraine:

Looking at this map I believe that the most advantageous end state for Russia would be the creation of a new independent country, call it Novorussiya, on the land east of the Dnieper and south along the coast that holds a majority ethnic Russian population and that, in 1922, had been attached to the Ukraine by Lenin. That state would be politically, culturally and militarily aligned with Russia.


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This would eliminate Ukrainian access to the Black Sea and create a land bridge towards the Moldavian breakaway Transnistria which is under Russian protection.

Novorossiya, the red and yellow parts, will not be, like I assumed, an independent country, but will become full fledged parts of the Russian Federation. Otherwise my prediction about the end-state of this war is holding up. What's left of Ukraine, poor as it is, will have to agree to it.

Without ever increasing amounts of new money and weapons flowing into Ukraine the "West" has nothing left to counter a Russian offer. It is good to see that it is finally acknowledging that.

Comments

The reason they now pushing for it is they will lose most of Ukraine and won’t be able to ” try again “. They have not had a change of heart or suddenly seen the light. They knew They were lying from the get go.
They are trying to freeze the conflict in order to pause re-arm and try again later. Because right now they are facing defeat.
So ALL eyes will ultimately end up being on Russia. What they accept as a peace settlement. Because it is two sets of the upper class elites who will come up with the compramise. I’m convinced billions of normal lower class folk will be very disappointed.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 18 2023 11:13 utc | 1

The reason they now pushing for it is they will lose most of Ukraine and won’t be able to ” try again “. They have not had a change of heart or suddenly seen the light. They knew They were lying from the get go.
They are trying to freeze the conflict in order to pause re-arm and try again later. Because right now they are facing defeat.
So ALL eyes will ultimately end up being on Russia. What they accept as a peace settlement. Because it is two sets of the upper class elites who will come up with the compramise. I’m convinced billions of normal lower class folk will be very disappointed.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 18 2023 11:13 utc | 2

If there are negotiations at all when Ukraine runs out of money, weapons, and soldiers, I believe Russia will demand more territory than the Black Sea region. Maybe not as part of Russia proper, but a separate demilitarized zone. Lets not forget the original demands in the draft treaty of December 2021. Get rid of MK 41 launchers in Poland and Romania, and NATO back to 1997 borders. Sooner or later, NATO will capitulate.

Posted by: Chicago Bob | Nov 18 2023 11:17 utc | 3

If there are negotiations at all when Ukraine runs out of money, weapons, and soldiers, I believe Russia will demand more territory than the Black Sea region. Maybe not as part of Russia proper, but a separate demilitarized zone. Lets not forget the original demands in the draft treaty of December 2021. Get rid of MK 41 launchers in Poland and Romania, and NATO back to 1997 borders. Sooner or later, NATO will capitulate.

Posted by: Chicago Bob | Nov 18 2023 11:17 utc | 4

The article of the WSJ denoucing the “magical thinking” is in itself full of magical thinking. Proof: it advocates the “containment strategy” of the cold war which is quite impossible now, and is still on the final goal to eventually defeat Russia on the ground – in a few years after reloading and preparing.
So it’s a step toward the ineluctable outcome – decisive Russian victory – but not the last one.

Posted by: w | Nov 18 2023 11:31 utc | 5

The article of the WSJ denoucing the “magical thinking” is in itself full of magical thinking. Proof: it advocates the “containment strategy” of the cold war which is quite impossible now, and is still on the final goal to eventually defeat Russia on the ground – in a few years after reloading and preparing.
So it’s a step toward the ineluctable outcome – decisive Russian victory – but not the last one.

Posted by: w | Nov 18 2023 11:31 utc | 6

Posted by: Chicago Bob | Nov 18 2023 11:17 utc | 2
I’ve convinced myself to doubt it. All of Eastern Ukraine up to the river and Odessa to have a bridge to transnistria should be how it ends.
I’ve convinced myself it won’t and will look more like the original peace plan agreed in Istanbul before America, the UK and Germany scuppered it.
All that matters is business and money and like any gangster movie it was nothing personal just business. No matter how many were killed during the family feud business is all that matters. It’s simply the far right world we all now live in.
At least all the killing will be stopped on both sides. However, nothing fundamental will change as voters are recklessly sleep walking from one con trick to another. Convincing themselves they have found their new billionaire class saviour and that “THIS” member of the billionaire class will save them.
History is littered and graffitied with such folly.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 18 2023 11:32 utc | 7

Posted by: Chicago Bob | Nov 18 2023 11:17 utc | 2
I’ve convinced myself to doubt it. All of Eastern Ukraine up to the river and Odessa to have a bridge to transnistria should be how it ends.
I’ve convinced myself it won’t and will look more like the original peace plan agreed in Istanbul before America, the UK and Germany scuppered it.
All that matters is business and money and like any gangster movie it was nothing personal just business. No matter how many were killed during the family feud business is all that matters. It’s simply the far right world we all now live in.
At least all the killing will be stopped on both sides. However, nothing fundamental will change as voters are recklessly sleep walking from one con trick to another. Convincing themselves they have found their new billionaire class saviour and that “THIS” member of the billionaire class will save them.
History is littered and graffitied with such folly.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 18 2023 11:32 utc | 8

https://news.sky.com/story/italys-pm-giorgia-meloni-talks-of-ukraine-war-fatigue-after-falling-victim-to-prank-call-by-russian-comedians-12998945
You only have to hear the sigh, when ‘Putin’ mentions Ukraine, to tell you all you need to know about the West’s view of their dead proxy walking.

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 11:33 utc | 9

https://news.sky.com/story/italys-pm-giorgia-meloni-talks-of-ukraine-war-fatigue-after-falling-victim-to-prank-call-by-russian-comedians-12998945
You only have to hear the sigh, when ‘Putin’ mentions Ukraine, to tell you all you need to know about the West’s view of their dead proxy walking.

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 11:33 utc | 10

“Here is what I wrote on February 24, 2022, the day Russian troops first crossed the border to Ukraine:”
There were many people writing about this well before Feb 24, 2022. I wrote about it myself in 2014 and that was well after reading about it elsewhere.

Posted by: Bluedog57 | Nov 18 2023 11:47 utc | 11

“Here is what I wrote on February 24, 2022, the day Russian troops first crossed the border to Ukraine:”
There were many people writing about this well before Feb 24, 2022. I wrote about it myself in 2014 and that was well after reading about it elsewhere.

Posted by: Bluedog57 | Nov 18 2023 11:47 utc | 12

b, you are neither a historian of Russian history nor of the Russian Revolution, nor do you know anything about the socio-cultural & the historical interrelations of the Black Sea region.
Comments like: “Those Russian lands, which the Soviets – for no good reason- submitted to Soviet Ukrainian administration, will be repatriated.” make you look like an ignorantus.
It’s a bit more complicated than a biased Rogov implies.

Posted by: v | Nov 18 2023 11:55 utc | 13

b, you are neither a historian of Russian history nor of the Russian Revolution, nor do you know anything about the socio-cultural & the historical interrelations of the Black Sea region.
Comments like: “Those Russian lands, which the Soviets – for no good reason- submitted to Soviet Ukrainian administration, will be repatriated.” make you look like an ignorantus.
It’s a bit more complicated than a biased Rogov implies.

Posted by: v | Nov 18 2023 11:55 utc | 14

b- you should include most of the green area as well as part of the expanded RF.
Those Galicians and Volhynians who hate Russia can move west and live in Poland.
Remember, Kiev is the foundational city of the Russian State. Remember also that it was Kievan Rus that defeated the Khazars. And after Putin, who? Medvedev?
Also, a land connection is needed to Kaliningrad. Sorry, Lithuania. You will reap what you’ve sown.
Jetzt, mein Deutscher kamerad, what will y’all do to save your nation from its submission to the USA?
Think fast, because America’s time is running short, and when we’re broke, we’ll throw you and the rest of NATO away like a used Kleenex. Perhaps you can make arrangements with Poland, Czechia, and Austria.

Posted by: OldFart | Nov 18 2023 12:01 utc | 15

b- you should include most of the green area as well as part of the expanded RF.
Those Galicians and Volhynians who hate Russia can move west and live in Poland.
Remember, Kiev is the foundational city of the Russian State. Remember also that it was Kievan Rus that defeated the Khazars. And after Putin, who? Medvedev?
Also, a land connection is needed to Kaliningrad. Sorry, Lithuania. You will reap what you’ve sown.
Jetzt, mein Deutscher kamerad, what will y’all do to save your nation from its submission to the USA?
Think fast, because America’s time is running short, and when we’re broke, we’ll throw you and the rest of NATO away like a used Kleenex. Perhaps you can make arrangements with Poland, Czechia, and Austria.

Posted by: OldFart | Nov 18 2023 12:01 utc | 16

@7, its spelt “ignoramus”. Freudian slip?

Posted by: Chairman Meow | Nov 18 2023 12:15 utc | 17

@7, its spelt “ignoramus”. Freudian slip?

Posted by: Chairman Meow | Nov 18 2023 12:15 utc | 18

Ukraine Weekly Update: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-be8

Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Nov 18 2023 12:17 utc | 19

Ukraine Weekly Update: May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-be8

Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Nov 18 2023 12:17 utc | 20

Judging by this map, it seems most of the mineral deposits (and most valuable mineral deposits, including titanium) are about within 100km of Kirovograd. The titanium . The least goal would probably be to deny the use of titanium to the west. One of the chief aims should be at least to deny the west of using mineral deposits in Ukraine, but that would occur automatically with the buffer state + Novorrossiya plan.
We have seen more signals from Ukraine authorities, including Zelensky himself imposing questions. If on the basis that Ukraine is “rented” to fight the war for the west, if the west can’t deliver, the rent will go unpaid and suddenly you will see the country fragmenting.
I think it would be a huge win to get China on board to develop Donbass. I believe they already have reopened steel production. Getting China in will help sway more of remnant Ukraine toward the east later on. The west will not rebuild the western part, they will plunder and loot it.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 12:21 utc | 21

Judging by this map, it seems most of the mineral deposits (and most valuable mineral deposits, including titanium) are about within 100km of Kirovograd. The titanium . The least goal would probably be to deny the use of titanium to the west. One of the chief aims should be at least to deny the west of using mineral deposits in Ukraine, but that would occur automatically with the buffer state + Novorrossiya plan.
We have seen more signals from Ukraine authorities, including Zelensky himself imposing questions. If on the basis that Ukraine is “rented” to fight the war for the west, if the west can’t deliver, the rent will go unpaid and suddenly you will see the country fragmenting.
I think it would be a huge win to get China on board to develop Donbass. I believe they already have reopened steel production. Getting China in will help sway more of remnant Ukraine toward the east later on. The west will not rebuild the western part, they will plunder and loot it.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 12:21 utc | 22

There will come a point in time for Russia to make on offer that the Ukrainian officialdom and people can not resist. Cheap gas, lots of trade in exchange for Ukrainian official acceptance of new Russian borderlines around Novorossiya as well as political and military neutrality.

That deal was there all along.
The problem is that Ukrainian nationalism is not a rational thing.
We are talking about people who almost all have literal biological cousins in Russia, and on occasions brothers, sisters and fathers/sons too (as a famous example, the commander of the Joint Forces of the AFU is Sergey Nayev, and his brother is on the Russian side in Crimea), but are calling Russians orcs, subhumans, etc. and are claiming genetic racial superiority over them. Complete, total insanity.
Of course the West cannot offer Ukrainians anything tangible — it has been essentially bankrupt since the 1970s when the really cheap oil in Texas peaked; it has been all papering over the cracks by sucking resources out from the rest of the world through a combination of brute force and covert means. And of course Russia can because it has the real tangible resources. Plus the deep historical integration of the economies. And Russia is the only side interested in actually developing Ukraine — the West will take over and suck it dry, as it already did to most of Eastern Europe.
But Ukrainian elites are better off as vassals of the West, and at this point the mass of truly brainwashed regular nationalists is very large too. A second generation is now growing in that detached from historical reality bubble.
Maybe there are still residual pro-Russian forces that can somehow take over but this is not getting resolved without military occupation deep to the west of Kiev.
And after this war there can never be such a thing as friendly towards Russia consciously Ukrainian Ukrainians. You have to do de-Ukrainization or this will be a festering and ever worsening wound forever.
If the Kremlin leaves it here, the West has won a decisive, though not total victory.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:24 utc | 23

There will come a point in time for Russia to make on offer that the Ukrainian officialdom and people can not resist. Cheap gas, lots of trade in exchange for Ukrainian official acceptance of new Russian borderlines around Novorossiya as well as political and military neutrality.

That deal was there all along.
The problem is that Ukrainian nationalism is not a rational thing.
We are talking about people who almost all have literal biological cousins in Russia, and on occasions brothers, sisters and fathers/sons too (as a famous example, the commander of the Joint Forces of the AFU is Sergey Nayev, and his brother is on the Russian side in Crimea), but are calling Russians orcs, subhumans, etc. and are claiming genetic racial superiority over them. Complete, total insanity.
Of course the West cannot offer Ukrainians anything tangible — it has been essentially bankrupt since the 1970s when the really cheap oil in Texas peaked; it has been all papering over the cracks by sucking resources out from the rest of the world through a combination of brute force and covert means. And of course Russia can because it has the real tangible resources. Plus the deep historical integration of the economies. And Russia is the only side interested in actually developing Ukraine — the West will take over and suck it dry, as it already did to most of Eastern Europe.
But Ukrainian elites are better off as vassals of the West, and at this point the mass of truly brainwashed regular nationalists is very large too. A second generation is now growing in that detached from historical reality bubble.
Maybe there are still residual pro-Russian forces that can somehow take over but this is not getting resolved without military occupation deep to the west of Kiev.
And after this war there can never be such a thing as friendly towards Russia consciously Ukrainian Ukrainians. You have to do de-Ukrainization or this will be a festering and ever worsening wound forever.
If the Kremlin leaves it here, the West has won a decisive, though not total victory.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:24 utc | 24

Penny Pritzker, US Special Representative for Ukraine’s Recovery, has suggested that officials imagine how the country could survive economically without US aid during her first visit to Ukraine.

Pritzker met with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the prime minister and government officials, the chairman of the parliament and American businesses. In addition, she even attended a congress of regional authorities together with Andrii Yermak, Head of the President’s Office.

Is there anyone in this cast of characters that is not a Jew????

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:28 utc | 25

Penny Pritzker, US Special Representative for Ukraine’s Recovery, has suggested that officials imagine how the country could survive economically without US aid during her first visit to Ukraine.

Pritzker met with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the prime minister and government officials, the chairman of the parliament and American businesses. In addition, she even attended a congress of regional authorities together with Andrii Yermak, Head of the President’s Office.

Is there anyone in this cast of characters that is not a Jew????

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:28 utc | 26

Those Galicians and Volhynians who hate Russia can move west and live in Poland.
Posted by: OldFart | Nov 18 2023 12:01 utc | 8

There was this report from yesterday:
https://twitter.com/defnotfsb/status/1725577007193293238

“I’m Russian… I won’t shoot my own people”
Resident of Volyn oblast refused to enlist after receiving summons. There’re millions more like him in the Ukraine who’ve resisted decades of brainwashing and aren’t afraid to admit who and what they are. Moscow must liberate them.

There are still pro-Russian people well to the west of Kiev. In fact the major cities there were still Russian speaking until fairly recently except core Banderistan (which does not include Volhynia).
They are a shrinking minority, but they exist, and it is not impossible to rebuild around them.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 27

Those Galicians and Volhynians who hate Russia can move west and live in Poland.
Posted by: OldFart | Nov 18 2023 12:01 utc | 8

There was this report from yesterday:
https://twitter.com/defnotfsb/status/1725577007193293238

“I’m Russian… I won’t shoot my own people”
Resident of Volyn oblast refused to enlist after receiving summons. There’re millions more like him in the Ukraine who’ve resisted decades of brainwashing and aren’t afraid to admit who and what they are. Moscow must liberate them.

There are still pro-Russian people well to the west of Kiev. In fact the major cities there were still Russian speaking until fairly recently except core Banderistan (which does not include Volhynia).
They are a shrinking minority, but they exist, and it is not impossible to rebuild around them.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 28

If the Kremlin leaves it here, the West has won a decisive, though not total victory.
Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:24 utc | 12
Regardless of where the Kremlin leaves it, if the four primary objectives of the SMO have been accomplished, Putin has won.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 29

If the Kremlin leaves it here, the West has won a decisive, though not total victory.
Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:24 utc | 12
Regardless of where the Kremlin leaves it, if the four primary objectives of the SMO have been accomplished, Putin has won.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 30

Comments like: “Those Russian lands, which the Soviets – for no good reason- submitted to Soviet Ukrainian administration, will be repatriated.” make you look like an ignorantus.
It’s a bit more complicated than a biased Rogov implies.
Posted by: v | Nov 18 2023 11:55 utc | 7

It is a bit more complicated indeed, but it is also true that if they wanted to, the Soviets could have drawn the borders differently. Brest-Litovsk (which plays a major but underappreciated role here) was in retrospective an unforced own goal too, but even with it, things could have been very different.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:37 utc | 31

Comments like: “Those Russian lands, which the Soviets – for no good reason- submitted to Soviet Ukrainian administration, will be repatriated.” make you look like an ignorantus.
It’s a bit more complicated than a biased Rogov implies.
Posted by: v | Nov 18 2023 11:55 utc | 7

It is a bit more complicated indeed, but it is also true that if they wanted to, the Soviets could have drawn the borders differently. Brest-Litovsk (which plays a major but underappreciated role here) was in retrospective an unforced own goal too, but even with it, things could have been very different.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:37 utc | 32

I’ve convinced myself to doubt it. All of Eastern Ukraine up to the river and Odessa to have a bridge to transnistria should be how it ends.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 18 2023 11:32 utc | 4

As has been discussed countless times, this actually does not resolve the major reason the war started — missiles. The threat was to have those in Kharkov and Sumy, with 5 minutes flight time.
“all of Eastern Ukraine up to the river and Odessa” means they will now have a flight time of 6 minutes, not 5. No real difference.
It also does not achieve the openly stated goals of the SMO:

Regardless of where the Kremlin leaves it, if the four primary objectives of the SMO have been accomplished, Putin has won.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 15

And what about denazification? How is that possibly going to be done without ending Ukrainian statehood and eradicating the very idea of Ukraine as a separate ethnicity? At the moment there is absolutely no possibility of non-Nazi Ukrainian nationalism, because every single Ukrainian nationalist of note to have ever lived has been a Nazi (some even before the Nazis in Germany were Nazis), and the connection between these things has only grown stronger over time.
Leaving that cancer to fester guarantees another war down the line.
But back to missiles — the real goal of the SMO is achieved only when the possibility of situating missiles is pushed back not just beyond the Dnieper but to the Atlantic. That means getting the US out of Poland, Romania, and now Scandinavia too. How far away are we from that after what has happened the last 20 months?

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:43 utc | 33

I’ve convinced myself to doubt it. All of Eastern Ukraine up to the river and Odessa to have a bridge to transnistria should be how it ends.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 18 2023 11:32 utc | 4

As has been discussed countless times, this actually does not resolve the major reason the war started — missiles. The threat was to have those in Kharkov and Sumy, with 5 minutes flight time.
“all of Eastern Ukraine up to the river and Odessa” means they will now have a flight time of 6 minutes, not 5. No real difference.
It also does not achieve the openly stated goals of the SMO:

Regardless of where the Kremlin leaves it, if the four primary objectives of the SMO have been accomplished, Putin has won.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 15

And what about denazification? How is that possibly going to be done without ending Ukrainian statehood and eradicating the very idea of Ukraine as a separate ethnicity? At the moment there is absolutely no possibility of non-Nazi Ukrainian nationalism, because every single Ukrainian nationalist of note to have ever lived has been a Nazi (some even before the Nazis in Germany were Nazis), and the connection between these things has only grown stronger over time.
Leaving that cancer to fester guarantees another war down the line.
But back to missiles — the real goal of the SMO is achieved only when the possibility of situating missiles is pushed back not just beyond the Dnieper but to the Atlantic. That means getting the US out of Poland, Romania, and now Scandinavia too. How far away are we from that after what has happened the last 20 months?

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 12:43 utc | 34

#layout
Zelensky realized that his rating is going down, there will be no victories, but there will be a “retreat”, the economy is in a coma, social services will have to be cut, tariffs and prices will have to be raised, the hryvnia will be devalued, illegal mobilization will continue, and a couple of dozen other problems (corruption , crime, redistribution of elites, conflict with the military, political repression, language scandals, destroyed healthcare and education systems, drug dominance, fuel and energy crisis, etc.).
This is all great for the Maidan/coup.
Zelensky understands this, and as usual, he accused that it was the Russians who were preparing Maidan-3. I immediately remembered how Poroshenko, also in agony, tried to save his power and invented all sorts of Russian operations to destabilize Ukraine, such as the “Shatun” plan.
We have been writing for a long time that there will be a Maidan in Ukraine if the conflict enters the “smoldering/frozen” stage.
This is indicated by many factors, and the “ground” is already ready, especially since the Maidan can be organized by Western structures that are fed up with Zelensky, who is interfering with them in the global game.
In November , we insided that two external factors would provoke the Maidan in Kiev.
1. The war in Israel will drag on
2. Ukraine will not receive new loans in the required quantity.
We are watching.
@Legitimny

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 12:55 utc | 35

#layout
Zelensky realized that his rating is going down, there will be no victories, but there will be a “retreat”, the economy is in a coma, social services will have to be cut, tariffs and prices will have to be raised, the hryvnia will be devalued, illegal mobilization will continue, and a couple of dozen other problems (corruption , crime, redistribution of elites, conflict with the military, political repression, language scandals, destroyed healthcare and education systems, drug dominance, fuel and energy crisis, etc.).
This is all great for the Maidan/coup.
Zelensky understands this, and as usual, he accused that it was the Russians who were preparing Maidan-3. I immediately remembered how Poroshenko, also in agony, tried to save his power and invented all sorts of Russian operations to destabilize Ukraine, such as the “Shatun” plan.
We have been writing for a long time that there will be a Maidan in Ukraine if the conflict enters the “smoldering/frozen” stage.
This is indicated by many factors, and the “ground” is already ready, especially since the Maidan can be organized by Western structures that are fed up with Zelensky, who is interfering with them in the global game.
In November , we insided that two external factors would provoke the Maidan in Kiev.
1. The war in Israel will drag on
2. Ukraine will not receive new loans in the required quantity.
We are watching.
@Legitimny

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 12:55 utc | 36

Is there anyone in this cast of characters that is not a Jew????
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:28 utc | 13

tsk tsk Mr Bungle
according to all the AntiImperialist/Marxist interlekchewals that comment at this site, thats just a coincidence.
No conclusion other than “It’s a coincidence!” can be ever allowed to be uttered.
Ignore the fact that for decades when WASP’s were at the forefront these people were more than happy to point out at every opportunity that the show was being rigged to exclusively benefit WASPs and maintain their corrupt power structures.
Now its all just a coincidence and any other conclusion you may be tempted to reach, regarding certain groups rigging the game exclusively for their benefit and everyone else’s detriment, means you must be a filthy racist/antiSemite.

Posted by: UpToEleven | Nov 18 2023 12:57 utc | 37

Is there anyone in this cast of characters that is not a Jew????
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 12:28 utc | 13

tsk tsk Mr Bungle
according to all the AntiImperialist/Marxist interlekchewals that comment at this site, thats just a coincidence.
No conclusion other than “It’s a coincidence!” can be ever allowed to be uttered.
Ignore the fact that for decades when WASP’s were at the forefront these people were more than happy to point out at every opportunity that the show was being rigged to exclusively benefit WASPs and maintain their corrupt power structures.
Now its all just a coincidence and any other conclusion you may be tempted to reach, regarding certain groups rigging the game exclusively for their benefit and everyone else’s detriment, means you must be a filthy racist/antiSemite.

Posted by: UpToEleven | Nov 18 2023 12:57 utc | 38

-B-
In reading thoroughly the cited articles, I disagree with your analysis that “reality” or “reassessment” and resetting of goals.
There’s nothing here but a bunch of doublespeak & divergence of narrative. The articles themselves reflect Russia will not agree to any form of a ceasefire that would allow Ukraine an opportunity to rearm, reorganize (appears US/UK want to install new governance & new military body).
This should not be mistaken for any realm of “burying” or “walking away” from Ukraine.
On the contrary, I see this situation more dangerous than ever, up to and including the coming use of biological, chemical & even dirty bombs coming, either in Ukraine or directl terror on a major scale deep inside Russia territory.
Regardless of these “article” or “business/banking leaders”wishes, the NATO/US is far from a “walk away” …
The scorn and revenge as well as the ever increasing “scorch earth” policies of the Empire… we can all expect a major campaign in both Ukraine & Russia soon.
The U.S. /NATO have plenty, plenty of weapons at their disposal of varying devastating weapons regardless of not having 155 mm ammo.
Anyways, I’m not believing any of these “reasonable” arguments for “reality” acceptance… as the US/UK/NATO are neither “reasonable “ or “really based” and absolutely nothing in position of the EU/UK/EU has changed. These nation states love 20 year long wars. And $$$ is hardly a consideration ever before and none now. There are way too many people that want to believe US is some “weakened” Empire status and its BS.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Nov 18 2023 13:01 utc | 39

-B-
In reading thoroughly the cited articles, I disagree with your analysis that “reality” or “reassessment” and resetting of goals.
There’s nothing here but a bunch of doublespeak & divergence of narrative. The articles themselves reflect Russia will not agree to any form of a ceasefire that would allow Ukraine an opportunity to rearm, reorganize (appears US/UK want to install new governance & new military body).
This should not be mistaken for any realm of “burying” or “walking away” from Ukraine.
On the contrary, I see this situation more dangerous than ever, up to and including the coming use of biological, chemical & even dirty bombs coming, either in Ukraine or directl terror on a major scale deep inside Russia territory.
Regardless of these “article” or “business/banking leaders”wishes, the NATO/US is far from a “walk away” …
The scorn and revenge as well as the ever increasing “scorch earth” policies of the Empire… we can all expect a major campaign in both Ukraine & Russia soon.
The U.S. /NATO have plenty, plenty of weapons at their disposal of varying devastating weapons regardless of not having 155 mm ammo.
Anyways, I’m not believing any of these “reasonable” arguments for “reality” acceptance… as the US/UK/NATO are neither “reasonable “ or “really based” and absolutely nothing in position of the EU/UK/EU has changed. These nation states love 20 year long wars. And $$$ is hardly a consideration ever before and none now. There are way too many people that want to believe US is some “weakened” Empire status and its BS.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Nov 18 2023 13:01 utc | 40

@Echo Chamber #1,4
There are no parts of your so-called analysis which are credible in my view.
Among the more egregious errors: confusing Putin with Western “leaders”.
Perhaps you have forgotten that Putin has enormous approval ratings in Russia – they rise and fall but have always been strong, and are pretty much historically strong now.
Perhaps you have forgotten that Putin has been at the helm in Russia for almost the entire period since 2000. He has no need or interest in grifting in order to enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle a la Obama; he clearly enjoys doing what he has been doing: being Russia’s leader.
Perhaps you are ignorant of the reality that Putin brought the Russian oligarchs to heel – not the other way around. He made them an offer they could not refuse and the offer was accepted by most – with the remainder getting broken with Khodorkovski as object lesson. Even Fridman and Aven just recently admitted that it was a mistake investing heavily in the West.
From my view: I don’t see Putin or Russia having any specific objectives set in stone.
The reality is that the Ukraine situation has demilitarized the West and destabilized Western economies, with the economic effects in turn upsetting Western politics.
So long as the US and/or Europe continues to dump money and equipment into Ukraine, and the Ukrainians continue to allow its manifestly incompetent military and political leadership to remain, Russia has no need to terminate the situation.
If the Ukraine situation persists long enough, the European security situation will be resolved via Europe deindustrializing to the point of global irrelevance.
I further posit that the only ways that a negotiated agreement of any kind with Ukraine will be accepted by Russia are:
1) unconditional Ukraine surrender followed by 1945 style dictates by Russia to Ukraine
2) Chinese peacekeepers enforcing demilitarization and buffer zones because the West has repeatedly shown that it is agreement-incapable.
The latter is extremely unlikely simply because the anti-China faction in the US would never accept the resulting turbocharging of China into the role of international peacekeeper – the role which the US pretends to fill.
Outright conquest won’t be necessary unless Russia decides it wants a land corridor linking to Hungary and from Hungary, to Serbia. Such an action would be as a result of a decision to completely destroy Ukraine as it would also mean taking full control over the Soviet era natural gas pipelines into Europe, thus removing the only other source of foreign income for Ukraine besides GMO food crops. It is not clear to me that this is necessary, in Russia’s view, given Europe’s fierce desire to deindustrialize itself.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 13:03 utc | 41

@Echo Chamber #1,4
There are no parts of your so-called analysis which are credible in my view.
Among the more egregious errors: confusing Putin with Western “leaders”.
Perhaps you have forgotten that Putin has enormous approval ratings in Russia – they rise and fall but have always been strong, and are pretty much historically strong now.
Perhaps you have forgotten that Putin has been at the helm in Russia for almost the entire period since 2000. He has no need or interest in grifting in order to enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle a la Obama; he clearly enjoys doing what he has been doing: being Russia’s leader.
Perhaps you are ignorant of the reality that Putin brought the Russian oligarchs to heel – not the other way around. He made them an offer they could not refuse and the offer was accepted by most – with the remainder getting broken with Khodorkovski as object lesson. Even Fridman and Aven just recently admitted that it was a mistake investing heavily in the West.
From my view: I don’t see Putin or Russia having any specific objectives set in stone.
The reality is that the Ukraine situation has demilitarized the West and destabilized Western economies, with the economic effects in turn upsetting Western politics.
So long as the US and/or Europe continues to dump money and equipment into Ukraine, and the Ukrainians continue to allow its manifestly incompetent military and political leadership to remain, Russia has no need to terminate the situation.
If the Ukraine situation persists long enough, the European security situation will be resolved via Europe deindustrializing to the point of global irrelevance.
I further posit that the only ways that a negotiated agreement of any kind with Ukraine will be accepted by Russia are:
1) unconditional Ukraine surrender followed by 1945 style dictates by Russia to Ukraine
2) Chinese peacekeepers enforcing demilitarization and buffer zones because the West has repeatedly shown that it is agreement-incapable.
The latter is extremely unlikely simply because the anti-China faction in the US would never accept the resulting turbocharging of China into the role of international peacekeeper – the role which the US pretends to fill.
Outright conquest won’t be necessary unless Russia decides it wants a land corridor linking to Hungary and from Hungary, to Serbia. Such an action would be as a result of a decision to completely destroy Ukraine as it would also mean taking full control over the Soviet era natural gas pipelines into Europe, thus removing the only other source of foreign income for Ukraine besides GMO food crops. It is not clear to me that this is necessary, in Russia’s view, given Europe’s fierce desire to deindustrialize itself.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 13:03 utc | 42

@v #7
The victors write the maps and history books.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 13:05 utc | 43

@v #7
The victors write the maps and history books.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 13:05 utc | 44

If Russia is so overwhelmingly offensively powerful, why aren’t they taking territory? Why did it take 9 months for Bakhmut? Several for Avdiivka? Why did they wait for the U advance instead of mounting their own? Why did they get kicked out of Kherson and the Kharkiv area? Why did the have to build massive defensive fortifications?
It’s a long way to Odessa. And Russia is not even taking the initiative at Kherson.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18 2023 13:12 utc | 45

If Russia is so overwhelmingly offensively powerful, why aren’t they taking territory? Why did it take 9 months for Bakhmut? Several for Avdiivka? Why did they wait for the U advance instead of mounting their own? Why did they get kicked out of Kherson and the Kharkiv area? Why did the have to build massive defensive fortifications?
It’s a long way to Odessa. And Russia is not even taking the initiative at Kherson.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18 2023 13:12 utc | 46

Now its all just a coincidence and any other conclusion you may be tempted to reach, regarding certain groups rigging the game exclusively for their benefit and everyone else’s detriment, means you must be a filthy racist/antiSemite.
Posted by: UpToEleven | Nov 18 2023 12:57 utc | 19
You mean you tell me if I labelled one side of a dice “Jew” and it came up “Jew” 7 out of ten rolls nobody would cry foul because it’s anti semitism?
I’ll buy those odds!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 13:16 utc | 47

Now its all just a coincidence and any other conclusion you may be tempted to reach, regarding certain groups rigging the game exclusively for their benefit and everyone else’s detriment, means you must be a filthy racist/antiSemite.
Posted by: UpToEleven | Nov 18 2023 12:57 utc | 19
You mean you tell me if I labelled one side of a dice “Jew” and it came up “Jew” 7 out of ten rolls nobody would cry foul because it’s anti semitism?
I’ll buy those odds!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 13:16 utc | 48

Insider reports (Rezident_UA) say Zelensky has no intention to negotiate on anything regardless of western pressure. Guess that solves the problem of potential risk for Minsk III.
It seems increasingly likely that no one will ever announce a definite end of the Ukraine conflict. Remember, a lot of neoliberal and neocon outlets in the west are expecting some sort of Korea scenario, or agreement after which they could announce “the west won”.
It will never come. The combat intensity will simply trend downwards, while increasing and decreasing around the baseline, until it fades away completely during next year. It lasts until it doesn’t, as long as someone still shows up on the front. This seems more likely, but incomprehensible to most people.
Also:

The “hunt” for citizens of military age continues in Ukraine. Military commissars are rowing everyone, including sick and crippled citizens, trying to fulfill the plan, but the Armed Forces of Ukraine cannot say that they are very happy with this state of affairs. The fact is that the “volunteers” in Ukraine have long been transferred (some died, some became disabled due to injury, and some received mental injuries), and now the commanders of the Armed Forces of Ukraine receive poorly motivated and undertrained civilians, not only those unable to carry out combat missions, but also endangering their comrades in arms.
At the same time, the mobilization resource in Ukraine is actually running out—there are not enough military personnel in the country for long-term military operations. Ukrainian experts note that the total mobilization resource in the country is about 1.8 million people (with a specific total mobilization). At the same time, there are already about a million people in the Ukrainian army and another 500 thousand in various state power structures, which are also mobilized in their own way – the police, the SBU, civil servants, the Ministry of Emergency Situations, and so on. That is, Ukraine’s mobilization resource may be exhausted already in early/mid 2024.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 13:19 utc | 49

Insider reports (Rezident_UA) say Zelensky has no intention to negotiate on anything regardless of western pressure. Guess that solves the problem of potential risk for Minsk III.
It seems increasingly likely that no one will ever announce a definite end of the Ukraine conflict. Remember, a lot of neoliberal and neocon outlets in the west are expecting some sort of Korea scenario, or agreement after which they could announce “the west won”.
It will never come. The combat intensity will simply trend downwards, while increasing and decreasing around the baseline, until it fades away completely during next year. It lasts until it doesn’t, as long as someone still shows up on the front. This seems more likely, but incomprehensible to most people.
Also:

The “hunt” for citizens of military age continues in Ukraine. Military commissars are rowing everyone, including sick and crippled citizens, trying to fulfill the plan, but the Armed Forces of Ukraine cannot say that they are very happy with this state of affairs. The fact is that the “volunteers” in Ukraine have long been transferred (some died, some became disabled due to injury, and some received mental injuries), and now the commanders of the Armed Forces of Ukraine receive poorly motivated and undertrained civilians, not only those unable to carry out combat missions, but also endangering their comrades in arms.
At the same time, the mobilization resource in Ukraine is actually running out—there are not enough military personnel in the country for long-term military operations. Ukrainian experts note that the total mobilization resource in the country is about 1.8 million people (with a specific total mobilization). At the same time, there are already about a million people in the Ukrainian army and another 500 thousand in various state power structures, which are also mobilized in their own way – the police, the SBU, civil servants, the Ministry of Emergency Situations, and so on. That is, Ukraine’s mobilization resource may be exhausted already in early/mid 2024.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 13:19 utc | 50

Even if Putin could keep the conquered territory, the SMO wouldn’t be a success with NATO at the border. To make it a success that Putin can sell and that the sacrifices are worth it, the east of Ukraine must become and remain neutral.

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Nov 18 2023 13:34 utc | 51

Even if Putin could keep the conquered territory, the SMO wouldn’t be a success with NATO at the border. To make it a success that Putin can sell and that the sacrifices are worth it, the east of Ukraine must become and remain neutral.

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Nov 18 2023 13:34 utc | 52

With 10-1 artillery advantage Russia can safely stand back and pulverise the Ukies into the mud and slush. Then walk in unresisted.

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 18 2023 13:50 utc | 53

With 10-1 artillery advantage Russia can safely stand back and pulverise the Ukies into the mud and slush. Then walk in unresisted.

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 18 2023 13:50 utc | 54

25 – That would mean any movement on the issue depends on removing Zelensky. However, he already bears quite a resemblance to Diem in Vietnam and may share the same ultimate fate.

Posted by: Waldorf | Nov 18 2023 13:58 utc | 55

25 – That would mean any movement on the issue depends on removing Zelensky. However, he already bears quite a resemblance to Diem in Vietnam and may share the same ultimate fate.

Posted by: Waldorf | Nov 18 2023 13:58 utc | 56

@Anonymous #23

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 14:00 utc | 57

@Anonymous #23

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 14:00 utc | 58

The fact that Nazis like UptoEleven (# 19) still cling to such a discredited and puerile piece of propaganda as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, seeing a conspiration from a “certain ethnicity” to rule the world, shows how little culture and knowledge have to do with their gutter analysis.
Contrary to what you assume, of course for Marxists there is no “coincidence” in the fact that Jews are over-represented in certain professions and classes. This is the result of history, a history shaped by non-Jews, by the way. For millennia Jews were barred from owning real estate, tilling fields & re. They were allowed finance (just to circumvent the prohibition of interests for Christians), and some intellectual professions. In the Ottoman Empire, they were allowed to be merchants. Not being allowed to invest in real estate, they heavily invested in instruction and culture: something no king can seize from you when expelling you.
Furthermore, in Catholic Europe they were forced to live in towns, in enclosed spaces called “ghettos”, so they became an urban part of the population. They became, all of them, bourgeoisie.
When urban bourgeoisie took power, Jews were highly advantaged from their position. So, no, there is no “coincidencec, just mere consequences of political decisions taken by us” Gentiles”

Posted by: Giovanni Dall’Orto | Nov 18 2023 14:03 utc | 59

The fact that Nazis like UptoEleven (# 19) still cling to such a discredited and puerile piece of propaganda as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, seeing a conspiration from a “certain ethnicity” to rule the world, shows how little culture and knowledge have to do with their gutter analysis.
Contrary to what you assume, of course for Marxists there is no “coincidence” in the fact that Jews are over-represented in certain professions and classes. This is the result of history, a history shaped by non-Jews, by the way. For millennia Jews were barred from owning real estate, tilling fields & re. They were allowed finance (just to circumvent the prohibition of interests for Christians), and some intellectual professions. In the Ottoman Empire, they were allowed to be merchants. Not being allowed to invest in real estate, they heavily invested in instruction and culture: something no king can seize from you when expelling you.
Furthermore, in Catholic Europe they were forced to live in towns, in enclosed spaces called “ghettos”, so they became an urban part of the population. They became, all of them, bourgeoisie.
When urban bourgeoisie took power, Jews were highly advantaged from their position. So, no, there is no “coincidencec, just mere consequences of political decisions taken by us” Gentiles”

Posted by: Giovanni Dall’Orto | Nov 18 2023 14:03 utc | 60

@Anonymous #23

If Russia is so overwhelmingly offensively powerful, why aren’t they taking territory?

Because the publicly announced Russian military strategy is attrition, not the taking of territory.

Why did it take 9 months for Bakhmut? Several for Avdiivka?

Because both of those areas are extremely heavily fortified. Literally the most heavily fortified areas in all of Ukraine.

Why did they wait for the U advance instead of mounting their own?

See above: attrition.

Why did they get kicked out of Kherson and the Kharkiv area?

The Russian military left Kherson because they accurately assessed that Ukraine would destroy the upstream Khakovka dam. They didn’t get kicked out – they left on their own terms and inflicted massive casualties on Ukrainian forces in the process.
Kharkiv was taken before the Russian military grew by several hundred thousand troops plus many hundreds of thousands of volunteers/contract soldiers – and like Kherson, the AFU gains were made at the expense of massive losses

Why did the have to build massive defensive fortifications?

Because that’s what competent militaries do.
Warfare is about both offense and defense. Building fortifications allow a military to defend with fewer troops than otherwise, thus freeing up said troops for greater area of defense and/or offense.
Incompetent militaries, on the other hand, go all-in on magical thinking offensives to the Sea of Azov that fail miserably.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 14:07 utc | 61

@Anonymous #23

If Russia is so overwhelmingly offensively powerful, why aren’t they taking territory?

Because the publicly announced Russian military strategy is attrition, not the taking of territory.

Why did it take 9 months for Bakhmut? Several for Avdiivka?

Because both of those areas are extremely heavily fortified. Literally the most heavily fortified areas in all of Ukraine.

Why did they wait for the U advance instead of mounting their own?

See above: attrition.

Why did they get kicked out of Kherson and the Kharkiv area?

The Russian military left Kherson because they accurately assessed that Ukraine would destroy the upstream Khakovka dam. They didn’t get kicked out – they left on their own terms and inflicted massive casualties on Ukrainian forces in the process.
Kharkiv was taken before the Russian military grew by several hundred thousand troops plus many hundreds of thousands of volunteers/contract soldiers – and like Kherson, the AFU gains were made at the expense of massive losses

Why did the have to build massive defensive fortifications?

Because that’s what competent militaries do.
Warfare is about both offense and defense. Building fortifications allow a military to defend with fewer troops than otherwise, thus freeing up said troops for greater area of defense and/or offense.
Incompetent militaries, on the other hand, go all-in on magical thinking offensives to the Sea of Azov that fail miserably.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 14:07 utc | 62

Slightly OT:
http://avia.pro/news/ssha-peredadut-yaponii-400-krylatyh-raket-tomagavk
How to get profitably rid of obsolete junk 🙂

Posted by: Catilina | Nov 18 2023 14:11 utc | 63

Slightly OT:
http://avia.pro/news/ssha-peredadut-yaponii-400-krylatyh-raket-tomagavk
How to get profitably rid of obsolete junk 🙂

Posted by: Catilina | Nov 18 2023 14:11 utc | 64

Posted by: v | Nov 18 2023 11:55 utc
You care to enlighten us with your version of it all ?

Posted by: Stephane | Nov 18 2023 14:19 utc | 65

Posted by: v | Nov 18 2023 11:55 utc
You care to enlighten us with your version of it all ?

Posted by: Stephane | Nov 18 2023 14:19 utc | 66

Posted by: Giovanni Dall’Orto | Nov 18 2023 14:03 utc | 30
That was well summed up !

Posted by: Stephane | Nov 18 2023 14:21 utc | 67

Posted by: Giovanni Dall’Orto | Nov 18 2023 14:03 utc | 30
That was well summed up !

Posted by: Stephane | Nov 18 2023 14:21 utc | 68

Penny Pritzker? This is so laughable. Next up is her 400 pound brother/sister Jennifer. Penny’s experience is real estate scams with Valerie Jarrett and Barack Obama.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 18 2023 14:21 utc | 69

Penny Pritzker? This is so laughable. Next up is her 400 pound brother/sister Jennifer. Penny’s experience is real estate scams with Valerie Jarrett and Barack Obama.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 18 2023 14:21 utc | 70

The Russian military left Kherson because they accurately assessed that Ukraine would destroy the upstream Khakovka dam. They didn’t get kicked out – they left on their own terms and inflicted massive casualties on Ukrainian forces in the process.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 14:07 utc | 31

Sure, when one puts it like that, the decision seemingly makes sense.
But in the broader context it is a shocking development.
Blowing up dams is the kind of thing for which nukes fly. That dam was fully within Russian constitutional territory and Kherson city is a regional capital.
What happened:
1) The Kremlin was not able to deter NATO from blowing up a major infrastructural object
2) Then it surrendered a regional capital without a fight.
How is that even possible?
Sure, the other side could threaten to blow up the dam all the want, but Russia is the largest nuclear power in the world, and such blackmail should simply not be possible — there should be consequences for those who try such things that would make them not even think of trying them in the first place. And we know that the Kremlin has the technical means to swiftly hand out justice if it wants to.
So how did that situation ever develop and what does that say about the Kremlin’s conduct in all this?
And why has the Kremlin never mentioned Kherson as something that will eventually be recovered ever since? It has been a whole year. Not a word.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:26 utc | 71

The Russian military left Kherson because they accurately assessed that Ukraine would destroy the upstream Khakovka dam. They didn’t get kicked out – they left on their own terms and inflicted massive casualties on Ukrainian forces in the process.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 14:07 utc | 31

Sure, when one puts it like that, the decision seemingly makes sense.
But in the broader context it is a shocking development.
Blowing up dams is the kind of thing for which nukes fly. That dam was fully within Russian constitutional territory and Kherson city is a regional capital.
What happened:
1) The Kremlin was not able to deter NATO from blowing up a major infrastructural object
2) Then it surrendered a regional capital without a fight.
How is that even possible?
Sure, the other side could threaten to blow up the dam all the want, but Russia is the largest nuclear power in the world, and such blackmail should simply not be possible — there should be consequences for those who try such things that would make them not even think of trying them in the first place. And we know that the Kremlin has the technical means to swiftly hand out justice if it wants to.
So how did that situation ever develop and what does that say about the Kremlin’s conduct in all this?
And why has the Kremlin never mentioned Kherson as something that will eventually be recovered ever since? It has been a whole year. Not a word.

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:26 utc | 72

It will never come. The combat intensity will simply trend downwards, while increasing and decreasing around the baseline, until it fades away completely during next year. It lasts until it doesn’t, as long as someone still shows up on the front. This seems more likely, but incomprehensible to most people.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 13:19 utc | 25

Russia has, by my count, around 80 cities bigger than Avdeevka that must be taken before a satisfactory outcome of the war is achieved, of them 25 bigger than Severodonetsk and Lisichansk (the last major properly successful offensive operations), and 7 bigger than Mariupol (the largest city taken)
How is that going to happen with “downwards trending combat intensity”?

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:32 utc | 73

It will never come. The combat intensity will simply trend downwards, while increasing and decreasing around the baseline, until it fades away completely during next year. It lasts until it doesn’t, as long as someone still shows up on the front. This seems more likely, but incomprehensible to most people.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2023 13:19 utc | 25

Russia has, by my count, around 80 cities bigger than Avdeevka that must be taken before a satisfactory outcome of the war is achieved, of them 25 bigger than Severodonetsk and Lisichansk (the last major properly successful offensive operations), and 7 bigger than Mariupol (the largest city taken)
How is that going to happen with “downwards trending combat intensity”?

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:32 utc | 74

Arch Bungle @ 13
Not quite. Not all Jews, all Ukrainian Jews.
And I am a bit off in my #35. Jennifer is not a brother/sister but a cousin.
Fortunately my personal business dealing with Jennifer did not go far. Have two old friends who were in J.B. Pritzker’s bed (and paid for that service), the family is scum of the earth.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 18 2023 14:33 utc | 75

Arch Bungle @ 13
Not quite. Not all Jews, all Ukrainian Jews.
And I am a bit off in my #35. Jennifer is not a brother/sister but a cousin.
Fortunately my personal business dealing with Jennifer did not go far. Have two old friends who were in J.B. Pritzker’s bed (and paid for that service), the family is scum of the earth.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 18 2023 14:33 utc | 76

Shadowbanned here to deliver you your daily dose of Empire propaganda. Tell me more about your concerns shadowbanned. It’s an effective window into the thinking of the dipshits planning the war against Russia. Wishful thinking, distortions, celebrations of terrorist actions as victories.
The fact is Maerica and her hangers-on have comprehensively lost they’re just too stupid to realize it yet.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Nov 18 2023 14:36 utc | 77

Shadowbanned here to deliver you your daily dose of Empire propaganda. Tell me more about your concerns shadowbanned. It’s an effective window into the thinking of the dipshits planning the war against Russia. Wishful thinking, distortions, celebrations of terrorist actions as victories.
The fact is Maerica and her hangers-on have comprehensively lost they’re just too stupid to realize it yet.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Nov 18 2023 14:36 utc | 78

>> “Novorossiya, the red and yellow parts, will not be, like I assumed, an independent country, but will become full fledged parts of the Russian Federation. Otherwise my prediction about the end-state of this war is holding up. What’s left of Ukraine, poor as it is, will have to agree to it.”
Quite possible. This will create massive problems for both Ukraine, and its Western backers: 90 % of the value created in Ukraine, both industrial and agriculture, is created in the red zone, with its fertile soil and its natural resources. And the access to the Black Sea.
How is the green part of Ukraine going to earn its living? And who is going to live there? Anybody young and healthy enough to work will either have left the country, or died in the war.
Sooner or later, Ms. von der Leyen and Mr. Stoltenberg are going to understand this as well, and they’ll be considerably less enthusiastic about welcoming Ukraine in NATO and EU.
And once the good people of Ukraine realise that soon, they’ll be without agriculture, without an economy and without Europe and America sending them all the money the ask for – they might find the perspective of the old Ukraine, green and yellow and red and possibly even grey, with a neutral or even pro-Russian government, not such a bad alternative.
Selensky may be right fearing Maidan 3.0. Especially now that a lot of his Nazi-friends have died at the front, and his own army is beginning to realise they might be better off without him.

Posted by: Marvin | Nov 18 2023 14:38 utc | 79

>> “Novorossiya, the red and yellow parts, will not be, like I assumed, an independent country, but will become full fledged parts of the Russian Federation. Otherwise my prediction about the end-state of this war is holding up. What’s left of Ukraine, poor as it is, will have to agree to it.”
Quite possible. This will create massive problems for both Ukraine, and its Western backers: 90 % of the value created in Ukraine, both industrial and agriculture, is created in the red zone, with its fertile soil and its natural resources. And the access to the Black Sea.
How is the green part of Ukraine going to earn its living? And who is going to live there? Anybody young and healthy enough to work will either have left the country, or died in the war.
Sooner or later, Ms. von der Leyen and Mr. Stoltenberg are going to understand this as well, and they’ll be considerably less enthusiastic about welcoming Ukraine in NATO and EU.
And once the good people of Ukraine realise that soon, they’ll be without agriculture, without an economy and without Europe and America sending them all the money the ask for – they might find the perspective of the old Ukraine, green and yellow and red and possibly even grey, with a neutral or even pro-Russian government, not such a bad alternative.
Selensky may be right fearing Maidan 3.0. Especially now that a lot of his Nazi-friends have died at the front, and his own army is beginning to realise they might be better off without him.

Posted by: Marvin | Nov 18 2023 14:38 utc | 80

Shadowbanned here to deliver you your daily dose of Empire propaganda.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Nov 18 2023 14:36 utc | 39
He’s been at this two years straight and can’t admit Putin was right from the start on almost every detail and decision of the SMO.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 14:45 utc | 81

Shadowbanned here to deliver you your daily dose of Empire propaganda.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Nov 18 2023 14:36 utc | 39
He’s been at this two years straight and can’t admit Putin was right from the start on almost every detail and decision of the SMO.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 14:45 utc | 82

now the us will enter it’s “withdrawing from Afghanistan phase”. can’t wait for the predictions that “we have supplied Urkaine with enough weapons and trained their personnel so they should be able to handle the Taliban without any trouble. whoops, meant the obviously weak Russian military—anyway, it’s all good. It’s off to Gaza and Taiwan now!”

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 18 2023 14:57 utc | 83

now the us will enter it’s “withdrawing from Afghanistan phase”. can’t wait for the predictions that “we have supplied Urkaine with enough weapons and trained their personnel so they should be able to handle the Taliban without any trouble. whoops, meant the obviously weak Russian military—anyway, it’s all good. It’s off to Gaza and Taiwan now!”

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 18 2023 14:57 utc | 84

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:32 utc | 37
but are those 80 cities as well fortified as Avdeevka? i don’t think so.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 18 2023 15:04 utc | 85

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:32 utc | 37
but are those 80 cities as well fortified as Avdeevka? i don’t think so.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 18 2023 15:04 utc | 86

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18 2023 13:12 utc | 23
‘Overwhelmingly offensively powerful’ means just that, you have the capability to pick which strategies your opponent is forced to respond to. Russia’s High Command for reasons that are only known to herself, and outsiders can only attempt to divine, has decided to go for a slo-mo SMO. Whilst controlling the battle space is a vital component for this option, one area of Russian supremacy is the main enabler, controlling the clock Russia therefore has the luxury of dictating the pace, with little that her enemies can do about the chosen tempo.
So the question really should be reframed, with all the cards in her hand why shouldn’t they take months to reduce heavily fortified cities, why shouldn’t they relinquish ground that is strategically indefensible? Accelerating the tempo when it’s not a necessity, is playing into the hands of your enemy, why do that. Russia’s economy has improved both in its resilience and power, as has its armed forces and industries and ministries involved in the conflict, whilst correspondingly weakening those of the West. Why change now?

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 15:13 utc | 87

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18 2023 13:12 utc | 23
‘Overwhelmingly offensively powerful’ means just that, you have the capability to pick which strategies your opponent is forced to respond to. Russia’s High Command for reasons that are only known to herself, and outsiders can only attempt to divine, has decided to go for a slo-mo SMO. Whilst controlling the battle space is a vital component for this option, one area of Russian supremacy is the main enabler, controlling the clock Russia therefore has the luxury of dictating the pace, with little that her enemies can do about the chosen tempo.
So the question really should be reframed, with all the cards in her hand why shouldn’t they take months to reduce heavily fortified cities, why shouldn’t they relinquish ground that is strategically indefensible? Accelerating the tempo when it’s not a necessity, is playing into the hands of your enemy, why do that. Russia’s economy has improved both in its resilience and power, as has its armed forces and industries and ministries involved in the conflict, whilst correspondingly weakening those of the West. Why change now?

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 15:13 utc | 88

but are those 80 cities as well fortified as Avdeevka? i don’t think so.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 18 2023 15:04 utc | 43

The river alone is a gigantic fortification.
Look at what is happening in Krynki now with the higher right bank.
Now imagine trying to take Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk, Kremenchuk, or Kiev itself with AFU firing from the other side of the river and no major axis of attack from Belaurs down the right bank (which there are no signs of in the coming at least six months).

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 15:13 utc | 89

but are those 80 cities as well fortified as Avdeevka? i don’t think so.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 18 2023 15:04 utc | 43

The river alone is a gigantic fortification.
Look at what is happening in Krynki now with the higher right bank.
Now imagine trying to take Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk, Kremenchuk, or Kiev itself with AFU firing from the other side of the river and no major axis of attack from Belaurs down the right bank (which there are no signs of in the coming at least six months).

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 15:13 utc | 90

Neocons scums said that Russia is just a Gas Station.

Posted by: Andrrew | Nov 18 2023 15:16 utc | 91

Neocons scums said that Russia is just a Gas Station.

Posted by: Andrrew | Nov 18 2023 15:16 utc | 92

@unimperator #25

The combat intensity will simply trend downwards, while increasing and decreasing around the baseline, until it fades away completely during next year. It lasts until it doesn’t, as long as someone still shows up on the front. This seems more likely, but incomprehensible to most people.

Do you actually follow what is happening in Ukraine?
The combat intensity, in the form of Ukrainian offensives, has declined to zero on that side but the Russians are pushing along the entire line of contact…and more importantly, making clear progress.
All this without giant groups of troops or grand announcements.
It seems that your analysis is based on the assumption that Ukraine can defend despite its artillery, air defense, drone, manpower and other deficiencies.
BigSerge quoted a non-Sun-Tzu general in his latest Substack publication:

In military affairs there are five essential points. If able to attack, you must attack. If not able to attack, you must defend. If not able to defend, you must flee. The remaining two points entail only surrender or death.

Ukraine is working its way down the list. The events of the summer demonstrated that it cannot successfully attack strongly held Russian positions. Events in Avdivvka and elsewhere now test whether they can defend their position in the Donbas against rising Russian force generation. If they fail this test, it will be time to flee, surrender, or die. Such is the way of things when the time for reckoning comes.

I agree with this 100%.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 15:18 utc | 93

@unimperator #25

The combat intensity will simply trend downwards, while increasing and decreasing around the baseline, until it fades away completely during next year. It lasts until it doesn’t, as long as someone still shows up on the front. This seems more likely, but incomprehensible to most people.

Do you actually follow what is happening in Ukraine?
The combat intensity, in the form of Ukrainian offensives, has declined to zero on that side but the Russians are pushing along the entire line of contact…and more importantly, making clear progress.
All this without giant groups of troops or grand announcements.
It seems that your analysis is based on the assumption that Ukraine can defend despite its artillery, air defense, drone, manpower and other deficiencies.
BigSerge quoted a non-Sun-Tzu general in his latest Substack publication:

In military affairs there are five essential points. If able to attack, you must attack. If not able to attack, you must defend. If not able to defend, you must flee. The remaining two points entail only surrender or death.

Ukraine is working its way down the list. The events of the summer demonstrated that it cannot successfully attack strongly held Russian positions. Events in Avdivvka and elsewhere now test whether they can defend their position in the Donbas against rising Russian force generation. If they fail this test, it will be time to flee, surrender, or die. Such is the way of things when the time for reckoning comes.

I agree with this 100%.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2023 15:18 utc | 94

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:32 utc | 37
You know this isn’t a game of Command & Conquer? You realise the capture of Avdivka unhinges the entire Ukrainian defence in the East and threatens the South. You do know that Russian military planners will only directly assault a city if, and only if, they think its capture will lead to immediate operational and strategic consequences, both in military and political terms. You do know that?

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 15:22 utc | 95

Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Nov 18 2023 14:32 utc | 37
You know this isn’t a game of Command & Conquer? You realise the capture of Avdivka unhinges the entire Ukrainian defence in the East and threatens the South. You do know that Russian military planners will only directly assault a city if, and only if, they think its capture will lead to immediate operational and strategic consequences, both in military and political terms. You do know that?

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 15:22 utc | 96

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 15:13 utc | 44
Another reason for going slow: the cities along the line of contact are reduced to rubble. Better to contain the damage along this line while bleeding the AFU to combat incapability than a moving line of contact that destroys every city in its path. These are Russian speaking cities.

Posted by: Mike R | Nov 18 2023 15:24 utc | 97

Posted by: Milites | Nov 18 2023 15:13 utc | 44
Another reason for going slow: the cities along the line of contact are reduced to rubble. Better to contain the damage along this line while bleeding the AFU to combat incapability than a moving line of contact that destroys every city in its path. These are Russian speaking cities.

Posted by: Mike R | Nov 18 2023 15:24 utc | 98

@30 g
If you have ever encountered gypsies who interact with businesses in the west, you would immediately notice something about them: they do not identify with the host culture, in actuality disdain it, and will exploit it for materialistic gain without a shred of conscience. They are a people who choose to “dwell alone.” Does this mean we need to kill them? No. Through the virtue of the west, we have a live and let live MO, with exceptions throughout the years, of course, including civil war and displacement of native peoples.
The idea, therefore, that it is unreasonableto point out those among us who have not pulled their weight and have, as a matter of fact, worked towards a spirit of degeneracy through nepotism, tribal identity (rejection of the universal), and pushing harmful practices of usury, pornography, and infiltrating politics for insidious ends is counterproductive. The great work of Ron Unz and many writers/thinkers over there who have done scholarly work there to raise the question should be encouraged. Just as in the BDS movement, we should be allowed as Christians to withhold consent from hostile interlopers that seek to undo the accomplishments of the west tempered by Christianity.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 18 2023 15:27 utc | 99

@30 g
If you have ever encountered gypsies who interact with businesses in the west, you would immediately notice something about them: they do not identify with the host culture, in actuality disdain it, and will exploit it for materialistic gain without a shred of conscience. They are a people who choose to “dwell alone.” Does this mean we need to kill them? No. Through the virtue of the west, we have a live and let live MO, with exceptions throughout the years, of course, including civil war and displacement of native peoples.
The idea, therefore, that it is unreasonableto point out those among us who have not pulled their weight and have, as a matter of fact, worked towards a spirit of degeneracy through nepotism, tribal identity (rejection of the universal), and pushing harmful practices of usury, pornography, and infiltrating politics for insidious ends is counterproductive. The great work of Ron Unz and many writers/thinkers over there who have done scholarly work there to raise the question should be encouraged. Just as in the BDS movement, we should be allowed as Christians to withhold consent from hostile interlopers that seek to undo the accomplishments of the west tempered by Christianity.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 18 2023 15:27 utc | 100