Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 14, 2023
Ukraine’s Demographics Dictate To End The Fight

The knives are out in the fight over the Ukrainian throne.

Various Ukrainian media (in Russian) report of plans to fire this or that general. Andrei Yermak, Zelenski's chief of office and the real power behind him, is currently in the U.S., allegedly to get the okay for firing the commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian army General Zaluzny. Other Ukrainian media are calling for Zaluzny to become the new president. Tomorrow CIA director Burns is expected to be in Kiev to tell Zelenski that his time is up and that he, Zelenski, will have to go.

Simplicius writes:

It appears obvious that two competing factions are trying to outdo each other in the sphere of Western media. Zaluzhny fired his shot in the unsanctioned Economist piece, and it would seem that Zelensky backers are doing their own parallel counter-work.

Larry Johnson reminds of the larger powers who are behind this fight:

One critical point I failed to make in yesterday’s article regarding the competing narratives regarding Zelensky and General Zalushny — it looks like the Brits are backing Zalushny while the CIA is trying to save Zelensky and dump Zalushny. I base that conclusion on the fact that the Economist, a British publication with close ties to MI-6, gave Zalushny the celebrity treatment, while the Washington Post, the go-to rag for the CIA, blamed Zalushny for Nord Stream.

Fun to watch, unless you are on the frontline.

There, things are getting worse for the Ukrainian army day by day.

The Ukraine wasted so many troops for impossible endeavors, to hold Bakhmut and in its the senseless 'counter-attack' against impregnable Russian lines, that it now lacks the troops to hold its defense lines.

Six weeks ago the former British defense minister Ben Wallace urged the Ukrainian government to draft more young people to fill the lines:

The average age of the soldiers at the front is over 40. I understand President Zelensky’s desire to preserve the young for the future, but the fact is that Russia is mobilising the whole country by stealth. Putin knows a pause will hand him time to build a new army. So just as Britain did in 1939 and 1941, perhaps it is time to reassess the scale of Ukraine’s mobilisation.

In a recent interview with the Ukrainian Pravda the Economist writer Shashank Joshi took a similar line:

Q: Are there resources to escalate trainings of Ukrainian soldiers abroad?

A: I would say that one of the biggest challenges, really, right now is, first of all, being able to mobilise more young Ukrainians, which, as you know, is a challenge, and a political issue and a social issue.

The ignorance displayed in those British statements becomes evident when one takes a look at the Demographics of Ukraine:


bigger

When the Soviet Union dissolved in the late 1980s the economy of Ukraine went into a tailspin. People were suddenly very poor with no jobs available for them. They thus refrained from having children. Others fled when the war started and some of the young men were killed in the war.

While there are now some three hundred thousand Ukrainian men at the age of 40 there are less than a hundred thousand men at the age of 25.

As there are so few men and women of that reproductive age there are also only few new babies. Becoming independent was a social-demographic catastrophe for Ukraine that will haunt the country for the next hundred years.

The Ukrainian army can not draft younger soldiers because younger people are simply not there. The few thousand who are still hanging out in Kiev are actually university students who's knowledge and service will be needed over the next decades. To draft them would kill all positive perspectives the Ukraine still might have.

After the Ukrainian government, on order of the U.S., failed to make peace with Russia, the Russian president Vladimir Putin ordered his troops to 'de-militarize and de-nazify' the Ukraine. It then was obvious that the attrition of the Ukrainian army, not taking its land, was the main Russian plan.

The Ukrainian political and military command failed to correctly adopt to that. Instead of going into defense mode behind holdable lines it ordered its troops to attack Russian defense lines again and again. In consequence Russian losses were minimal while the Ukrainian losses exceeded all imaginations.

That this would end badly was quite predictable.

It is over. The Ukraine, and the powers behind it, have lost the war.

The Russian forces are now doing probing attacks along the whole frontline. Whenever a local Ukrainian local defense line will fail, which is just a question of time, they will break through and cover new grounds. Those drops leaking through will become a stream, then a river and a flood that will push the Ukrainian army into a full retreat.

The government of Ukraine, and its backers, can still prevent that.

But it requires to acknowledge the facts on the ground.

Calling for more younger Ukrainian people to be drafted to die is the opposite of doing that.

Comments

Ernesto@16
Ukraine is still fielding a reasonably competent fighting force, however it no longer has sufficient reserves needed for rotation and replacement of losses. This is why the conscription of women has been put forward as a solution. Women have outnumbered men in Ukraine since independence and women are the last large untapped pool of potential recruits.
Regarding demographics the place to start is the last nationwide census done in 2001. From it you can get a good idea of the demographics post independence. It is possible to come up with reasonable numbers for emmigration, population decline from low birth rate, population in lost territories, flight to Europe and Russia (remembering that many of the 5 million who fled to Russia came from the Russian controlled territory) since the start of the conflict, losses in the SMO, etc. To figure the available pool you need to calculate the draft age men minus losses to date and accounting for disabled and exempt people. Then remember that many are required to keep the country functional outside of the military requirements. It’s a bleak picture becoming bleaker as the conflict drags on.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 15:39 utc | 101

Ernesto@16
Ukraine is still fielding a reasonably competent fighting force, however it no longer has sufficient reserves needed for rotation and replacement of losses. This is why the conscription of women has been put forward as a solution. Women have outnumbered men in Ukraine since independence and women are the last large untapped pool of potential recruits.
Regarding demographics the place to start is the last nationwide census done in 2001. From it you can get a good idea of the demographics post independence. It is possible to come up with reasonable numbers for emmigration, population decline from low birth rate, population in lost territories, flight to Europe and Russia (remembering that many of the 5 million who fled to Russia came from the Russian controlled territory) since the start of the conflict, losses in the SMO, etc. To figure the available pool you need to calculate the draft age men minus losses to date and accounting for disabled and exempt people. Then remember that many are required to keep the country functional outside of the military requirements. It’s a bleak picture becoming bleaker as the conflict drags on.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 15:39 utc | 102

is this collapse going to happen?
Posted by: Ernesto | Nov 14 2023 12:23 utc | 16

I have been reading and hearing people claiming the UAF was near collapse for over a year and a half and that didn’t happen. Ukraine is not in the same kind of situation as Germany and Japan were at the end of WW-II, as they were isolated and with no external support. Ukraine is a proxy paid and directed by the US to create chaos in ghe region to damage the process of Asian integration.
The US is not out. It is just buying time until they find their next trick. The Western elites have no issues sending Ukrainian pregnant women on the front line as it happened a couple of days ago. Those elites live in an abstract world covered with a carpet full of euphemisms and they live fery far away anyway. They behave in a similar fashion toward the Palestinians.
It is not a simple matter for Russia to be at war by proxy with an ennemy like the US that hides and deceives and has an unlimited bag of deadly toys.

Posted by: Richard L | Nov 14 2023 15:47 utc | 103

is this collapse going to happen?
Posted by: Ernesto | Nov 14 2023 12:23 utc | 16

I have been reading and hearing people claiming the UAF was near collapse for over a year and a half and that didn’t happen. Ukraine is not in the same kind of situation as Germany and Japan were at the end of WW-II, as they were isolated and with no external support. Ukraine is a proxy paid and directed by the US to create chaos in ghe region to damage the process of Asian integration.
The US is not out. It is just buying time until they find their next trick. The Western elites have no issues sending Ukrainian pregnant women on the front line as it happened a couple of days ago. Those elites live in an abstract world covered with a carpet full of euphemisms and they live fery far away anyway. They behave in a similar fashion toward the Palestinians.
It is not a simple matter for Russia to be at war by proxy with an ennemy like the US that hides and deceives and has an unlimited bag of deadly toys.

Posted by: Richard L | Nov 14 2023 15:47 utc | 104

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 15:39 utc | 51
You hit the nail on the head.
One thing people often don’t think about is fielding a certain sized army. But having a huge army is useless if you can’t replace losses on the nominal size of the army. That means once units etc. are depleted, they will stay depleted with insufficient replacements, and suddenly the area you were covering becomes unsustainable very quickly. Ukraine probably has an unsustainably large army, they should concentrate on shortening the front.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 14 2023 15:48 utc | 105

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 15:39 utc | 51
You hit the nail on the head.
One thing people often don’t think about is fielding a certain sized army. But having a huge army is useless if you can’t replace losses on the nominal size of the army. That means once units etc. are depleted, they will stay depleted with insufficient replacements, and suddenly the area you were covering becomes unsustainable very quickly. Ukraine probably has an unsustainably large army, they should concentrate on shortening the front.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 14 2023 15:48 utc | 106

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 15:32 utc | 49
First, it is obvious that in Ukraine too there are many people who don’t buy the BS. However, there was a critical mass up to the Maidan and for sometime afterwards that swallowed it whole. But that had a lot to do with the fact that Ukraine continued to be a failed state, unlike Russia, which, despite numerous serious problems was on its way to salvage the situation. That has been after all Putin’s most recognizable success.
A good contrast would be the Belarussians. Even there you can find liberal sub-humanoids who strongly believe that grovelling before their western betters is the greatest glory they can achieve in life (although they would definitely frame it differently, some crap about liberal democracy etc.). Courtesy of Lukashenko, they escaped the horror show of the 90s and by 2017 even the World Bank, no friend of any socialist was forced to concede the country’s successes, omitting of course, critical details on how these came to be.
Well, no few Belarussians were rather stunned about the desire of so many Russians to pose as Slavic westerners at the cost of their country’s future. Lukashenko’s unfortunate effort to play on two boards before August 2020 was borne out of his aim to avoid bringing in Belarus the neoliberal baggage that is still plaguing Russia.
As for buying the war propaganda, it’s safe to say the many Ukrainians aren’t so gullible. They voted Zelensky precisely to change the country’s course and after all went to hell and open war with Russia started, millions left as refugees altogether. Let’s not be so harsh with them. As I posted previously, if the affluent, independent Finns can lose their heads so spectacularly, what can one expect fom the Ukrainians?

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 14 2023 15:52 utc | 107

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 15:32 utc | 49
First, it is obvious that in Ukraine too there are many people who don’t buy the BS. However, there was a critical mass up to the Maidan and for sometime afterwards that swallowed it whole. But that had a lot to do with the fact that Ukraine continued to be a failed state, unlike Russia, which, despite numerous serious problems was on its way to salvage the situation. That has been after all Putin’s most recognizable success.
A good contrast would be the Belarussians. Even there you can find liberal sub-humanoids who strongly believe that grovelling before their western betters is the greatest glory they can achieve in life (although they would definitely frame it differently, some crap about liberal democracy etc.). Courtesy of Lukashenko, they escaped the horror show of the 90s and by 2017 even the World Bank, no friend of any socialist was forced to concede the country’s successes, omitting of course, critical details on how these came to be.
Well, no few Belarussians were rather stunned about the desire of so many Russians to pose as Slavic westerners at the cost of their country’s future. Lukashenko’s unfortunate effort to play on two boards before August 2020 was borne out of his aim to avoid bringing in Belarus the neoliberal baggage that is still plaguing Russia.
As for buying the war propaganda, it’s safe to say the many Ukrainians aren’t so gullible. They voted Zelensky precisely to change the country’s course and after all went to hell and open war with Russia started, millions left as refugees altogether. Let’s not be so harsh with them. As I posted previously, if the affluent, independent Finns can lose their heads so spectacularly, what can one expect fom the Ukrainians?

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 14 2023 15:52 utc | 108

Another note on population – I think it likely that emmigration to the west had a larger impact in central and western Ukraine post the 2001 census compared to Crimea and the east. In other words from the most pro-western regions. I’m not sure how Ukrainian citizens living and working in Europe prior to the conflict are counted, but I doubt many of them returned to fight and the number is sizable. These people were keeping the Ukrainian economy afloat with remittances before the SMO.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 15:52 utc | 109

Another note on population – I think it likely that emmigration to the west had a larger impact in central and western Ukraine post the 2001 census compared to Crimea and the east. In other words from the most pro-western regions. I’m not sure how Ukrainian citizens living and working in Europe prior to the conflict are counted, but I doubt many of them returned to fight and the number is sizable. These people were keeping the Ukrainian economy afloat with remittances before the SMO.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 15:52 utc | 110

I’m not up on Zaluzhny’s political leanings, but all things considered he’s done a yoeman’s job with the forces at his disposal. As I have read from time to time, the Russians respect him and don’t underestimate his command capabilities. If that’s true, it would not surprise me if Moscow isn’t already considering offering him a job when this mess is over with- certainly not in a command position, but I could see him as a staff advisor to whoever is going to take charge of Russian forces in the region.
If, on the other hand, Zaluzhny chooses to ‘go down with the ship’, c’est la vie.

Posted by: John S | Nov 14 2023 16:00 utc | 111

I’m not up on Zaluzhny’s political leanings, but all things considered he’s done a yoeman’s job with the forces at his disposal. As I have read from time to time, the Russians respect him and don’t underestimate his command capabilities. If that’s true, it would not surprise me if Moscow isn’t already considering offering him a job when this mess is over with- certainly not in a command position, but I could see him as a staff advisor to whoever is going to take charge of Russian forces in the region.
If, on the other hand, Zaluzhny chooses to ‘go down with the ship’, c’est la vie.

Posted by: John S | Nov 14 2023 16:00 utc | 112

@ Posted by: Constantine | Nov 14 2023 13:42 utc | 26
Thank you for that thoughtful response – before I deal with what you consider bollocks maybe in another post as this response has got long – I am not against the ex-Zionist escapee ‘Israelis’ who have returned back to their ‘homelands’ in Europe or elsewhere.
There are indeed some new Israelis who were honey-trapped to the Palestine in recent decades from New and Old World countries. I knew young sexy Israelis who were tasked to do that – spending some time on the Thai beaches as they got toned and tanned and slick with the chat up lines, as they headed to Oz or US where many European Jews had emigrated to. Tasked to find ‘white’ Jews to come settle in Israel to expand into the Palestinian Territories.
It has happened to US and Ex-Soviet Jewish peoples too.
Many of these honey-trapped (mostly fat ugly incel types boys AND girls) find themselves abandoned by their sexy boy and girlfriends turned into the home stealing , child killing monsters we see running amok on the long suffering Semitic Palestinians since then. Their Honeys moved on to their next target.
One thing is absolutely certain – the one place most of these ex European, ex New World Israelis should never ever go to, to make a New Khazaria/Israel is the one place the Anglo European Zionists have been trying to for centuries – that is the borderlands of Russia, the Crimea and the Black Sea and certainly not make the jewel city Odessa there their new ‘Jerusalem’.
The door to Mackinders World Island they have so long desired and the cause of much war and death of many tens of millions.
It would be well for the Palestinians and the Peoples who claim that as some promised land in the Levant to leave that Holy Abrahamic religion land, if that is what they want, the sooner the better.
That is the other main concern RIGHT NOW. To stop the further torture of the Palestinians. That Israel Project must end. Now.
They can all return back to where they started from, if they want or go somewhere in the ‘New World’ where many European Peoples have settled for centuries. Or stay in the Levant as citizens of these nations if they will have them as citizens of their nations. There is plenty of space in the New World, resources and historical connections- having wiped the actual Native populations out long ago. They definitely shouldn’t dispossess any more natives anywhere. No one should.
To be clear I mean the 4 of the 5 Eye Nations or other places. There are plenty of their fellow religious in the USA and they have full rights as any another settler there. There is also plenty of space in Canada, Australia and New Zealand or some South American countries, although there they would perhaps be a unwelcome minority for their fellow European emigres – the Christian Jew haters of church teachings of centuries past haven’t perhaps diluted their prejudices in these communities as in modern multicultural Europe and USA it seems. A bit like the Apartheid Boers used to be. It is the same in all these places where small inbred ethnic communities have existed.
Some may actually feel ‘at home’ with the Nazis who were secretly removed to some of these lands after being defeated by the Red Armies. After all they share the same xenophobic apartheid , white supremacist murdering nazionists beliefs, just like these ww2 ‘heroes’ who are lauded in the West now days. Given major recognition for their forever hatred of Russians even more then anyone else. Some even share the same religions like the Kagans, Blinkens, Freedlands and so on. No?
The only one of the original countries they shouldn’t return to as ultra religious Zionists is the U.K. which is where the hotbed of Zionism still exists. Institutionalised to a much greater degree than the US even on a per capita basis. Being the home of that philosophy.
Along with many anti Zionists Hasidic and secular Jews.
That would be a cauldron for internecine unrest due to the population densities as a result of the geography.
Ideally those British Aristo Zionists Jewish and Christian should also leave the U.K. and go live where they would be best comfortable – with other Zionists – Jewish, Christian or whatever. The Bible Belt would be ideal or with the ukrop Natzios of Turdeaus Canada.
They can even be part of the new nations of the inevitable dissolution of the United State of America.
Another Project that has outlived its ambition within a couple of centuries.
They can all live happily together in their pure Aryan New World Order, awaiting the Rapture for as long as they want.
We’ll just have to take these nukes off their hands first though.
Anyway, as to the bollocks, what exactly do you know of the history of the European Jews you say have nothing to do with Khazaria?
Do you know who they were? When they were? Where they were?
Do you know how they ended up as the European Jews first before spreading to the 4 corners with the other European settlers?
Do you want me to tell you what I know of that history?
Not being facetious- just ask and I’ll put in another post as this has already got long and probably somewhat off-piste, sorry all. I’m still not over the horror of what I looked at yesterday.
Too many Palestinians have suffered and are horribly doing so now and way too many Russians died last century and previous ones and 50,000 in this SMO to allow that calamity to rise again like zombies climbing out of the massive new cemeteries of Ukrops planted by the naztzios visible from space I’m told like the Great Wall or the Giant Pyramids!

Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 14 2023 16:07 utc | 113

@ Posted by: Constantine | Nov 14 2023 13:42 utc | 26
Thank you for that thoughtful response – before I deal with what you consider bollocks maybe in another post as this response has got long – I am not against the ex-Zionist escapee ‘Israelis’ who have returned back to their ‘homelands’ in Europe or elsewhere.
There are indeed some new Israelis who were honey-trapped to the Palestine in recent decades from New and Old World countries. I knew young sexy Israelis who were tasked to do that – spending some time on the Thai beaches as they got toned and tanned and slick with the chat up lines, as they headed to Oz or US where many European Jews had emigrated to. Tasked to find ‘white’ Jews to come settle in Israel to expand into the Palestinian Territories.
It has happened to US and Ex-Soviet Jewish peoples too.
Many of these honey-trapped (mostly fat ugly incel types boys AND girls) find themselves abandoned by their sexy boy and girlfriends turned into the home stealing , child killing monsters we see running amok on the long suffering Semitic Palestinians since then. Their Honeys moved on to their next target.
One thing is absolutely certain – the one place most of these ex European, ex New World Israelis should never ever go to, to make a New Khazaria/Israel is the one place the Anglo European Zionists have been trying to for centuries – that is the borderlands of Russia, the Crimea and the Black Sea and certainly not make the jewel city Odessa there their new ‘Jerusalem’.
The door to Mackinders World Island they have so long desired and the cause of much war and death of many tens of millions.
It would be well for the Palestinians and the Peoples who claim that as some promised land in the Levant to leave that Holy Abrahamic religion land, if that is what they want, the sooner the better.
That is the other main concern RIGHT NOW. To stop the further torture of the Palestinians. That Israel Project must end. Now.
They can all return back to where they started from, if they want or go somewhere in the ‘New World’ where many European Peoples have settled for centuries. Or stay in the Levant as citizens of these nations if they will have them as citizens of their nations. There is plenty of space in the New World, resources and historical connections- having wiped the actual Native populations out long ago. They definitely shouldn’t dispossess any more natives anywhere. No one should.
To be clear I mean the 4 of the 5 Eye Nations or other places. There are plenty of their fellow religious in the USA and they have full rights as any another settler there. There is also plenty of space in Canada, Australia and New Zealand or some South American countries, although there they would perhaps be a unwelcome minority for their fellow European emigres – the Christian Jew haters of church teachings of centuries past haven’t perhaps diluted their prejudices in these communities as in modern multicultural Europe and USA it seems. A bit like the Apartheid Boers used to be. It is the same in all these places where small inbred ethnic communities have existed.
Some may actually feel ‘at home’ with the Nazis who were secretly removed to some of these lands after being defeated by the Red Armies. After all they share the same xenophobic apartheid , white supremacist murdering nazionists beliefs, just like these ww2 ‘heroes’ who are lauded in the West now days. Given major recognition for their forever hatred of Russians even more then anyone else. Some even share the same religions like the Kagans, Blinkens, Freedlands and so on. No?
The only one of the original countries they shouldn’t return to as ultra religious Zionists is the U.K. which is where the hotbed of Zionism still exists. Institutionalised to a much greater degree than the US even on a per capita basis. Being the home of that philosophy.
Along with many anti Zionists Hasidic and secular Jews.
That would be a cauldron for internecine unrest due to the population densities as a result of the geography.
Ideally those British Aristo Zionists Jewish and Christian should also leave the U.K. and go live where they would be best comfortable – with other Zionists – Jewish, Christian or whatever. The Bible Belt would be ideal or with the ukrop Natzios of Turdeaus Canada.
They can even be part of the new nations of the inevitable dissolution of the United State of America.
Another Project that has outlived its ambition within a couple of centuries.
They can all live happily together in their pure Aryan New World Order, awaiting the Rapture for as long as they want.
We’ll just have to take these nukes off their hands first though.
Anyway, as to the bollocks, what exactly do you know of the history of the European Jews you say have nothing to do with Khazaria?
Do you know who they were? When they were? Where they were?
Do you know how they ended up as the European Jews first before spreading to the 4 corners with the other European settlers?
Do you want me to tell you what I know of that history?
Not being facetious- just ask and I’ll put in another post as this has already got long and probably somewhat off-piste, sorry all. I’m still not over the horror of what I looked at yesterday.
Too many Palestinians have suffered and are horribly doing so now and way too many Russians died last century and previous ones and 50,000 in this SMO to allow that calamity to rise again like zombies climbing out of the massive new cemeteries of Ukrops planted by the naztzios visible from space I’m told like the Great Wall or the Giant Pyramids!

Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 14 2023 16:07 utc | 114

The popular support for maidan (apart from the radical nationalists) stemmed from widespread frustration with rampant corruption at all levels of society coupled with a failing economy. It was to address these long standing issues, along with ending the civil war, that Zelensky was elected in a landslide. He has failed on all counts and this will be remembered in the end.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 16:07 utc | 115

The popular support for maidan (apart from the radical nationalists) stemmed from widespread frustration with rampant corruption at all levels of society coupled with a failing economy. It was to address these long standing issues, along with ending the civil war, that Zelensky was elected in a landslide. He has failed on all counts and this will be remembered in the end.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 16:07 utc | 116

Arch Bungle | Nov 14 2023 10:33 utc | 4

All I want to know is when they trundle Tony Blair in to negotiate peace with the Russians on behalf of the Ukrainians …

Ukraine will have to wait Blair is being touted as the Saviour of Israel.

Posted by: Bilejones | Nov 14 2023 16:11 utc | 117

Arch Bungle | Nov 14 2023 10:33 utc | 4

All I want to know is when they trundle Tony Blair in to negotiate peace with the Russians on behalf of the Ukrainians …

Ukraine will have to wait Blair is being touted as the Saviour of Israel.

Posted by: Bilejones | Nov 14 2023 16:11 utc | 118

Perhaps only grammarians will notice B’s use of “The Ukraine” in this essay. However, it is significant linguistically and socially.
As a young person, I remember references to ‘the Ukraine’; however, this shifted later, perhaps in the 2000s. In my linguistic studies of English grammar, I learned that English native speakers have a consistent system of using the definite article ‘the’, the indefinite article ‘a, and no article. Of interest is the definite article and the null article.
In a nutshell, when we think of an entity as composed of multiple parts, we use definite articles. Examples are ‘the United States’, ‘the Philippines’, ‘the Sierra Nevada’, ‘the Russian Federation, etc.
When we think of an entity as unitary, we use the null article. Examples are ‘America’, ‘Mindinao’, ‘Mount McKinley’, and ‘Russia’. This system is quite consistent and causes much trouble for non-native speakers.
Native speakers understood that by saying ‘the Ukraine’, they thought of it as composed of regions and ethnicities not comprising a unitary whole. At a certain point in time, it became politically correct to say ‘Ukraine’, as if the Ukraine were united, not fragmented.
We who say or write ‘the Ukraine’ know that there is no united Ukraine.

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 14 2023 16:15 utc | 119

Perhaps only grammarians will notice B’s use of “The Ukraine” in this essay. However, it is significant linguistically and socially.
As a young person, I remember references to ‘the Ukraine’; however, this shifted later, perhaps in the 2000s. In my linguistic studies of English grammar, I learned that English native speakers have a consistent system of using the definite article ‘the’, the indefinite article ‘a, and no article. Of interest is the definite article and the null article.
In a nutshell, when we think of an entity as composed of multiple parts, we use definite articles. Examples are ‘the United States’, ‘the Philippines’, ‘the Sierra Nevada’, ‘the Russian Federation, etc.
When we think of an entity as unitary, we use the null article. Examples are ‘America’, ‘Mindinao’, ‘Mount McKinley’, and ‘Russia’. This system is quite consistent and causes much trouble for non-native speakers.
Native speakers understood that by saying ‘the Ukraine’, they thought of it as composed of regions and ethnicities not comprising a unitary whole. At a certain point in time, it became politically correct to say ‘Ukraine’, as if the Ukraine were united, not fragmented.
We who say or write ‘the Ukraine’ know that there is no united Ukraine.

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 14 2023 16:15 utc | 120

Re Ukie Stupidity:
My question is: did the nation generally ever truly have confidence in a Jewish Oligarch supported Yiddish-speaking comedian who earlier played the President on TV, not to mention playing the piano with his penis?
Personally, I doubt it.
Ukraine is not only now a failed State but for some time, perhaps since the official Jewish takeover in 2014, also a fake state (like the US).
That said I can well imagine that during the 90s many in the Soviet sphere felt that Liberalism was the way, not understanding the price would involve 300 years ‘living together’ versus already 200, and not anticipating so rapid a fall from common sense and civilizational coherence.
Just another shit show. Millions die. A few get obscenely rich.
Ho Hum.

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 14 2023 16:22 utc | 121

Re Ukie Stupidity:
My question is: did the nation generally ever truly have confidence in a Jewish Oligarch supported Yiddish-speaking comedian who earlier played the President on TV, not to mention playing the piano with his penis?
Personally, I doubt it.
Ukraine is not only now a failed State but for some time, perhaps since the official Jewish takeover in 2014, also a fake state (like the US).
That said I can well imagine that during the 90s many in the Soviet sphere felt that Liberalism was the way, not understanding the price would involve 300 years ‘living together’ versus already 200, and not anticipating so rapid a fall from common sense and civilizational coherence.
Just another shit show. Millions die. A few get obscenely rich.
Ho Hum.

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 14 2023 16:22 utc | 122

Hmm… wonder how long it will take for Russian flags to be flying over Odessa and Kiev? Is there a betting pool on that?
Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 14 2023 15:16 utc | 41
I was just thinking that Odessa might be a good new capital for a demilitarized Ukraine from Russia’s perspective. They don’t want to be left with just an armless and legless region on their border. Rather,if anything, one which can have historic and cultural diversity plus what can be formed from existing ability to interact with other nations. Kiev doesn’t really fit that, never did after the Tartars razed it. Kiev is a bad memory now and historically speaking, like Dresden.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 14 2023 16:42 utc | 123

Hmm… wonder how long it will take for Russian flags to be flying over Odessa and Kiev? Is there a betting pool on that?
Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 14 2023 15:16 utc | 41
I was just thinking that Odessa might be a good new capital for a demilitarized Ukraine from Russia’s perspective. They don’t want to be left with just an armless and legless region on their border. Rather,if anything, one which can have historic and cultural diversity plus what can be formed from existing ability to interact with other nations. Kiev doesn’t really fit that, never did after the Tartars razed it. Kiev is a bad memory now and historically speaking, like Dresden.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 14 2023 16:42 utc | 124

Tedder | Nov 14 2023 16:15 utc | 61
“Perhaps only grammarians will notice B’s use of “The Ukraine” in this essay. However, it is significant linguistically and socially…
Native speakers understood that by saying ‘the Ukraine’, they thought of it as composed of regions and ethnicities not comprising a unitary whole. At a certain point in time, it became politically correct to say ‘Ukraine’, as if the Ukraine were united, not fragmented.
We who say or write ‘the Ukraine’ know that there is no united Ukraine.”

No, we’re aware that the Borderland isn’t a real country and the hohols aren’t a real nation, but it’s a mishmash first cobbled together in the 19th century out of the Austro-Hungarian empire’s divide-and-conquer motives. “Ukrainians” are just degenerate, feral Russians.
I too recall the campaign to impose the political correctness of saying “Ukraine” rather than the Ukraine.
Once in awhile a troll here starts sputtering and fibrillating about how it should be called “Ukraine”, always starting an argument. Typical of the NAFO idiots.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Nov 14 2023 16:48 utc | 125

Tedder | Nov 14 2023 16:15 utc | 61
“Perhaps only grammarians will notice B’s use of “The Ukraine” in this essay. However, it is significant linguistically and socially…
Native speakers understood that by saying ‘the Ukraine’, they thought of it as composed of regions and ethnicities not comprising a unitary whole. At a certain point in time, it became politically correct to say ‘Ukraine’, as if the Ukraine were united, not fragmented.
We who say or write ‘the Ukraine’ know that there is no united Ukraine.”

No, we’re aware that the Borderland isn’t a real country and the hohols aren’t a real nation, but it’s a mishmash first cobbled together in the 19th century out of the Austro-Hungarian empire’s divide-and-conquer motives. “Ukrainians” are just degenerate, feral Russians.
I too recall the campaign to impose the political correctness of saying “Ukraine” rather than the Ukraine.
Once in awhile a troll here starts sputtering and fibrillating about how it should be called “Ukraine”, always starting an argument. Typical of the NAFO idiots.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Nov 14 2023 16:48 utc | 126

@Ciroc — 18
I am so sick of that kind of comment, it is so naive it is ridiculous. That the people of Ukraine ELECTED Ze, so they are now all culpable.
Yes, they elected him, because he ran on A PLATFORM OF PEACE and NO WAR. Mending fences with Russia AND ENFORCING Minsk.
Well, once he got in, he started going crazy and WENT THE EXACT OPPOSITE. How in the F can you blame Ukranians who voted FOR PEACE for this DOUBLE CROSS.
It’s a story as old as time. Woodrow Wilson, literally elected on a slogan “HE KEPT US OUT OF THE WAR” and then boom, he gets in and we go to war.
Same with FDR. Same with the European Union. It failed in country after country but the powers that be would never accept the people’s will. DON’T YOU GET IT. The West is run by an international clique and oligarchs. VOTING DOESN’T MATTER.
Trump was a complete aberration. Why?? Because the oligarchs believed their own media and thought there was no chance in hell he could win. Thus, they just did their normal amount of cheating. Oh boy, as we saw were they ready for 2020 and were not going to make that mistake again.
Just think about it. Trump ran on really one issue — the WALL and shutting down almost all immigration cold. HIS OWN PARTY wouldn’t even give him a measly $10-15B to build the damn thing, he had to use his executive authority 3 years in!!
Democracy is a farce, it is a tool of oligarchs, and most likely is the WORST FORM of government in terms of being responsive to the needs and wants of the people.

Posted by: Johnny | Nov 14 2023 16:50 utc | 127

@Ciroc — 18
I am so sick of that kind of comment, it is so naive it is ridiculous. That the people of Ukraine ELECTED Ze, so they are now all culpable.
Yes, they elected him, because he ran on A PLATFORM OF PEACE and NO WAR. Mending fences with Russia AND ENFORCING Minsk.
Well, once he got in, he started going crazy and WENT THE EXACT OPPOSITE. How in the F can you blame Ukranians who voted FOR PEACE for this DOUBLE CROSS.
It’s a story as old as time. Woodrow Wilson, literally elected on a slogan “HE KEPT US OUT OF THE WAR” and then boom, he gets in and we go to war.
Same with FDR. Same with the European Union. It failed in country after country but the powers that be would never accept the people’s will. DON’T YOU GET IT. The West is run by an international clique and oligarchs. VOTING DOESN’T MATTER.
Trump was a complete aberration. Why?? Because the oligarchs believed their own media and thought there was no chance in hell he could win. Thus, they just did their normal amount of cheating. Oh boy, as we saw were they ready for 2020 and were not going to make that mistake again.
Just think about it. Trump ran on really one issue — the WALL and shutting down almost all immigration cold. HIS OWN PARTY wouldn’t even give him a measly $10-15B to build the damn thing, he had to use his executive authority 3 years in!!
Democracy is a farce, it is a tool of oligarchs, and most likely is the WORST FORM of government in terms of being responsive to the needs and wants of the people.

Posted by: Johnny | Nov 14 2023 16:50 utc | 128

@Scorpion | Nov 14 2023 16:22 utc | 62
Zelensky’s comedy TV show “Servant of the People” was wildly popular in Ukraine for its lampooning of the political class. The landslide election of an inexperienced outsider to run the country simply shows how desperate people were for fundamental change. There is some evidence that initially he really intended radical change, that is until his confrontation with Right Sector thugs on the contact line where they threatened to hang him. From that point he simply embraced the politically corrupt status quo and the deeply embedded russophobic agenda of the state. It proved impossible to gain political support and protection within the government without paying for it using western money and the baggage that comes with it. As President Putin remarked “Everything in Ukraine has a price and nothing can be done without paying for it”.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 16:50 utc | 129

@Scorpion | Nov 14 2023 16:22 utc | 62
Zelensky’s comedy TV show “Servant of the People” was wildly popular in Ukraine for its lampooning of the political class. The landslide election of an inexperienced outsider to run the country simply shows how desperate people were for fundamental change. There is some evidence that initially he really intended radical change, that is until his confrontation with Right Sector thugs on the contact line where they threatened to hang him. From that point he simply embraced the politically corrupt status quo and the deeply embedded russophobic agenda of the state. It proved impossible to gain political support and protection within the government without paying for it using western money and the baggage that comes with it. As President Putin remarked “Everything in Ukraine has a price and nothing can be done without paying for it”.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 16:50 utc | 130

Down the drain goes Ukraine. The political infighting and blame-game combo will only serve to further weaken an already trembling military that really needs to go over to the defensive along geographically defensible lines. Every day that decision’s delayed means another 1000 troops kaput along with their meager equipment and ammo. That the Soros pukes are now exposed as deeply involved is also a very bad sign. In the North, what reserves exist are no longer being called brigades or even battalions, but are now the size of companies and swiftly evaporate into the meat grinder. In the South, the game of trying to occupy islands in the Dnieper as a show of offensive strength only serves to attrit the troops committed as they’re getting nowhere except into a grave. Yes, Russia loses some troops too, but the ratio remains catastrophic for the Ukrainians at roughly 1:10, and that figure is likely worse since the Ukies are incapable of evacuating their wounded while the Russian’s can.
Again, Russia is looking for the first major sign that Ukraine is willing to negotiate, and that would be the overturning of Zelensky’s No Negotiation Ukase. But there’ll be no freezing of the conflict as with the previous Minsk solutions. Given Russia’s SMO and security goals, an unconditional surrender along with the ceding of territories not yet liberated by Russia will be the most likely terms on offer. The Outlaw US Empire clearly wants to keep its foothold in Ukraine so it can return to the offensive at some future date, and that’s something Russia sees very clearly and won’t allow. In other words, negotiations will take at least two years and end in 2025 or even later as Shoigu predicted with further facts of the ground established. And I can’t help but think there’ll be some linkage of the West Asian conflict with the SMO solution.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 14 2023 16:56 utc | 131

Down the drain goes Ukraine. The political infighting and blame-game combo will only serve to further weaken an already trembling military that really needs to go over to the defensive along geographically defensible lines. Every day that decision’s delayed means another 1000 troops kaput along with their meager equipment and ammo. That the Soros pukes are now exposed as deeply involved is also a very bad sign. In the North, what reserves exist are no longer being called brigades or even battalions, but are now the size of companies and swiftly evaporate into the meat grinder. In the South, the game of trying to occupy islands in the Dnieper as a show of offensive strength only serves to attrit the troops committed as they’re getting nowhere except into a grave. Yes, Russia loses some troops too, but the ratio remains catastrophic for the Ukrainians at roughly 1:10, and that figure is likely worse since the Ukies are incapable of evacuating their wounded while the Russian’s can.
Again, Russia is looking for the first major sign that Ukraine is willing to negotiate, and that would be the overturning of Zelensky’s No Negotiation Ukase. But there’ll be no freezing of the conflict as with the previous Minsk solutions. Given Russia’s SMO and security goals, an unconditional surrender along with the ceding of territories not yet liberated by Russia will be the most likely terms on offer. The Outlaw US Empire clearly wants to keep its foothold in Ukraine so it can return to the offensive at some future date, and that’s something Russia sees very clearly and won’t allow. In other words, negotiations will take at least two years and end in 2025 or even later as Shoigu predicted with further facts of the ground established. And I can’t help but think there’ll be some linkage of the West Asian conflict with the SMO solution.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 14 2023 16:56 utc | 132

B’s use of the definite article with “Ukraine” is more likely caused by the fact that his mother tongue is German. German does not use the definite article before names of countries, the majority of which being of the neutral grammatical gender. However, those few counties whose names are of feminine gender take
the definite article. In German, therefore, one says “die Ukraine” and “die Türkei” but “Frankreich”, “Deutschland”, Russland”, “England” etc.

Posted by: Moscow Exile | Nov 14 2023 16:58 utc | 133

B’s use of the definite article with “Ukraine” is more likely caused by the fact that his mother tongue is German. German does not use the definite article before names of countries, the majority of which being of the neutral grammatical gender. However, those few counties whose names are of feminine gender take
the definite article. In German, therefore, one says “die Ukraine” and “die Türkei” but “Frankreich”, “Deutschland”, Russland”, “England” etc.

Posted by: Moscow Exile | Nov 14 2023 16:58 utc | 134

@Constantine #54
I’ve never said that all Ukrainians buy their mainstream line.
However, it is 100% clear that insufficient Ukrainians disagree or at least both disagree and are willing to do something about it.
Belarus is a terrible example because people there are not suffering in any way. Some may want Western freedom because they think it is better for them personally.
It is completely different in Ukraine right now.
I’m not talking about pre-SMO or Elensky’s election or whatever; those are all periods where the situation in Ukraine was not clearly better or worse than before.
Now, however, it is clearly worse.
The majority of Ukrainians know personally someone (the average was 3) killed in the SMO. The press gangs must be ubiquitous. The change in everyday life outside of a select gang in Kiev, is blatantly obvious.
It is one thing to go along with a potential change or against a potential change – neither of which will likely be significant.
It is another thing entirely to go along with an entirely horrific situation which has no obvious path towards improvement.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 16:58 utc | 135

@Constantine #54
I’ve never said that all Ukrainians buy their mainstream line.
However, it is 100% clear that insufficient Ukrainians disagree or at least both disagree and are willing to do something about it.
Belarus is a terrible example because people there are not suffering in any way. Some may want Western freedom because they think it is better for them personally.
It is completely different in Ukraine right now.
I’m not talking about pre-SMO or Elensky’s election or whatever; those are all periods where the situation in Ukraine was not clearly better or worse than before.
Now, however, it is clearly worse.
The majority of Ukrainians know personally someone (the average was 3) killed in the SMO. The press gangs must be ubiquitous. The change in everyday life outside of a select gang in Kiev, is blatantly obvious.
It is one thing to go along with a potential change or against a potential change – neither of which will likely be significant.
It is another thing entirely to go along with an entirely horrific situation which has no obvious path towards improvement.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 16:58 utc | 136

@the pessimist #55
All of the former Eastern European nations, with the sole exception of Poland, experienced massive population falls after their “liberation”. This was partly negative demographics as ’90s style deregulation and societal nets unraveled but probably more due to emigration.
This has more impact than just the people leaving because there is a clear skills and age division between the emigres and the leave-behinds.
The net result for Eastern Europe has been significantly degraded economic and demographic futures. The West has literally vampirically sucked out the young blood of those nations much as rich people try to live longer by literally transfusing the blood of young people.
In this sense, these new practices of the rich are just appropriating national sovereign practice to the individual level.
For Ukraine, it is even worse: the accelerated decline of that society will only accelerate even more as the core of their already vampirically drained population dies on the war fronts.
What’s even less excusable is that there are people in Ukraine who have living memory of what this type of loss entails – the Soviet losses in World War 2 are quite comparable, only Russia has ensured that the dead are overwhelming combatants unlike the Germans and their proxies.
But Russia can do nothing about the implosion of Ukrainian society and economy.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 17:05 utc | 137

@the pessimist #55
All of the former Eastern European nations, with the sole exception of Poland, experienced massive population falls after their “liberation”. This was partly negative demographics as ’90s style deregulation and societal nets unraveled but probably more due to emigration.
This has more impact than just the people leaving because there is a clear skills and age division between the emigres and the leave-behinds.
The net result for Eastern Europe has been significantly degraded economic and demographic futures. The West has literally vampirically sucked out the young blood of those nations much as rich people try to live longer by literally transfusing the blood of young people.
In this sense, these new practices of the rich are just appropriating national sovereign practice to the individual level.
For Ukraine, it is even worse: the accelerated decline of that society will only accelerate even more as the core of their already vampirically drained population dies on the war fronts.
What’s even less excusable is that there are people in Ukraine who have living memory of what this type of loss entails – the Soviet losses in World War 2 are quite comparable, only Russia has ensured that the dead are overwhelming combatants unlike the Germans and their proxies.
But Russia can do nothing about the implosion of Ukrainian society and economy.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 17:05 utc | 138

I should have said, “Kiev is a tragic memory”. I’d think there is still a place for it in new Ukraine, just as there is for Dresden and other places of tragic memory. But that would be for the remaining population to decide themselves.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 14 2023 17:07 utc | 139

I should have said, “Kiev is a tragic memory”. I’d think there is still a place for it in new Ukraine, just as there is for Dresden and other places of tragic memory. But that would be for the remaining population to decide themselves.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 14 2023 17:07 utc | 140

@JohnS #57

I’m not up on Zaluzhny’s political leanings, but all things considered he’s done a yoeman’s job with the forces at his disposal. As I have read from time to time, the Russians respect him and don’t underestimate his command capabilities.

My understanding is that Zaluzhny is much more bought into the far right/anti Russian line than Zelensky has ever been.
As for respect: I get zero impression of Russian military respect for that man.
He has frittered away 3 full Ukrainian militaries and accomplished nothing. The first was understandable – a Russian surprise assault.
The 2nd is not: he traded Ukrainian lives and equipment for land when Russia clearly stated its goals were attrition, not land.
The 3rd is even less excusable: he made public demands for a specific set of equipment that he said was needed to defeat Russia/march to the Sea of Azov. He got it, and failed.
What exactly is there to respect?

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 17:09 utc | 141

@JohnS #57

I’m not up on Zaluzhny’s political leanings, but all things considered he’s done a yoeman’s job with the forces at his disposal. As I have read from time to time, the Russians respect him and don’t underestimate his command capabilities.

My understanding is that Zaluzhny is much more bought into the far right/anti Russian line than Zelensky has ever been.
As for respect: I get zero impression of Russian military respect for that man.
He has frittered away 3 full Ukrainian militaries and accomplished nothing. The first was understandable – a Russian surprise assault.
The 2nd is not: he traded Ukrainian lives and equipment for land when Russia clearly stated its goals were attrition, not land.
The 3rd is even less excusable: he made public demands for a specific set of equipment that he said was needed to defeat Russia/march to the Sea of Azov. He got it, and failed.
What exactly is there to respect?

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 17:09 utc | 142

@the pessimist #68

Zelensky’s comedy TV show “Servant of the People” was wildly popular in Ukraine for its lampooning of the political class. The landslide election of an inexperienced outsider to run the country simply shows how desperate people were for fundamental change.

This is accurate but leaves out a number of very critical points.
1) The show was created and sponsored by Kolomoiski specifically to elevate Zelensky as a political figure.
2) The evidence for the above includes the fact that Zelensky’s political party name was chosen to be identical to the show name – hence political ads pushing the political party and Zelensky could bypass advertising election laws in Ukraine “because they were for the TV show”.

There is some evidence that initially he really intended radical change, that is until his confrontation with Right Sector thugs on the contact line where they threatened to hang him. From that point he simply embraced the politically corrupt status quo and the deeply embedded russophobic agenda of the state.

There is no evidence of that except his pre-election platform – and pre-election platforms are the grist for the more-often-true-than-not proverb that all politicians lie. For example: he appointed many far right types into his cabinet and to prominent positions in the Ukrainian government long before his apocryphal threatening by far right types in the Donetsk front lines.
From my perspective: Zelensky transitioned from being a Kolomoiski puppet into being a Western puppet after the SMO started.
The precise transition time was when he decided to listen to the West instead of carrying through the negotiations he had already committed to with Russia.
Zelensky isn’t some tragic and heroic figure – he is a sock puppet with many different hands up his ass – that has been heavily pushed by media throughout his political career.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 17:16 utc | 143

@the pessimist #68

Zelensky’s comedy TV show “Servant of the People” was wildly popular in Ukraine for its lampooning of the political class. The landslide election of an inexperienced outsider to run the country simply shows how desperate people were for fundamental change.

This is accurate but leaves out a number of very critical points.
1) The show was created and sponsored by Kolomoiski specifically to elevate Zelensky as a political figure.
2) The evidence for the above includes the fact that Zelensky’s political party name was chosen to be identical to the show name – hence political ads pushing the political party and Zelensky could bypass advertising election laws in Ukraine “because they were for the TV show”.

There is some evidence that initially he really intended radical change, that is until his confrontation with Right Sector thugs on the contact line where they threatened to hang him. From that point he simply embraced the politically corrupt status quo and the deeply embedded russophobic agenda of the state.

There is no evidence of that except his pre-election platform – and pre-election platforms are the grist for the more-often-true-than-not proverb that all politicians lie. For example: he appointed many far right types into his cabinet and to prominent positions in the Ukrainian government long before his apocryphal threatening by far right types in the Donetsk front lines.
From my perspective: Zelensky transitioned from being a Kolomoiski puppet into being a Western puppet after the SMO started.
The precise transition time was when he decided to listen to the West instead of carrying through the negotiations he had already committed to with Russia.
Zelensky isn’t some tragic and heroic figure – he is a sock puppet with many different hands up his ass – that has been heavily pushed by media throughout his political career.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 14 2023 17:16 utc | 144

@ Posted by: Giyane | Nov 14 2023 14:26 utc | 33
G are you saying that the Russian Yids who never left their homeland , some who achieved billionaire status eg Abrahmovic or Prigozhin Jnr types have enough emotional attachment to the apartheid zion project to bring down their own economy if Russia intervened in the Levant? And they are the reason why Russia survived the First Strike by Strategic Sanctions? And the next 10?
If that is what you mean – I don’t agree.
It is clear to me that the SCO partners knew what was planned for them and they had prepared carefully and fully for it. When XI and Putin met in person just before the SMO their smiles and mutual affection was evident for all to see.
Their statement of a once in a hundred years meant they were prepared.
When the rouble spiked with the first sanctions package and ‘In March 2022, it was reported that Nabiullina had attempted to resign her position, only to be ordered to stay in post by Putin.[23] In September 2022, the United States Treasury Department sanctioned Nabiullina.’
They waited until September, 6 months later! They thought they had the Fix In.
Tossers.
That central banker was being targeted and played would have obviously been known and kept her out of the loop. That was maskarovia on the strategic financial scale ! Genius.
That she was kept in position showed they knew she wasn’t a real traitor.
There is no way Xi would have let the Russian economy collapse, there is no way they weren’t prepared about their reserves being frozen, how ever much were still left with the Western bankers , and there is no way they hadn’t planned to be able to bypass the sanctions on trading energy to the world that needed it.
In fact they have used it to keep the Indians on side by letting their industrialists make a massive margin by-passing the sanctions.
(By the way apparently it’s Hindu new year 2080! Saarmubarak friends. I don’t know why 2000 and 80 , one day will have to look it up)
They have used the sanctions to get the Arab states on side , The Africans and most of the world that was always the third or second. Always the bullied.
Only India and Turkey sitting on the wall now matter. The Oil Sheiks can see that their gangster insurance policy deals nearly a century old ain’t worth shit but all their money is in US treasuries.
They just need to realise it’s worthless. It’s Caesars Money. They just need to render upon the Collective unipolar Caesars what is theirs and not be a bunch of cracked shells left in the sands they have built their castles on.
That’s just what I see from what’s in the public domain – I’m sure they have deeper game plans which we only see the outcomes of in hindsight.
So – no I don’t think loyal Russians of whatever religion and however tied to the illegal apartheid murderous state or in the supposed control of Global Financiers have ANY influence on the decisions and actions of the Masters of the Multipolar World that they are parenting. As Prigozhin snr found out and he had an army and multi billions!
As the old version goes you hold your enemies closer!
When the rouble spike vanished I knew Russia and Xi and the SCO had won the war – the Stalingrad moment, it was done within weeks – ever since it’s just been an inexorable grind to destroy all the Old Imperials Fire power and capacity to ever strike back.
‘Tatters I tell you Tatters’ 😉
Hope that make sense? My brain hurts thinking that out. Need a cuppa or a few pints.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 14 2023 17:27 utc | 145

@ Posted by: Giyane | Nov 14 2023 14:26 utc | 33
G are you saying that the Russian Yids who never left their homeland , some who achieved billionaire status eg Abrahmovic or Prigozhin Jnr types have enough emotional attachment to the apartheid zion project to bring down their own economy if Russia intervened in the Levant? And they are the reason why Russia survived the First Strike by Strategic Sanctions? And the next 10?
If that is what you mean – I don’t agree.
It is clear to me that the SCO partners knew what was planned for them and they had prepared carefully and fully for it. When XI and Putin met in person just before the SMO their smiles and mutual affection was evident for all to see.
Their statement of a once in a hundred years meant they were prepared.
When the rouble spiked with the first sanctions package and ‘In March 2022, it was reported that Nabiullina had attempted to resign her position, only to be ordered to stay in post by Putin.[23] In September 2022, the United States Treasury Department sanctioned Nabiullina.’
They waited until September, 6 months later! They thought they had the Fix In.
Tossers.
That central banker was being targeted and played would have obviously been known and kept her out of the loop. That was maskarovia on the strategic financial scale ! Genius.
That she was kept in position showed they knew she wasn’t a real traitor.
There is no way Xi would have let the Russian economy collapse, there is no way they weren’t prepared about their reserves being frozen, how ever much were still left with the Western bankers , and there is no way they hadn’t planned to be able to bypass the sanctions on trading energy to the world that needed it.
In fact they have used it to keep the Indians on side by letting their industrialists make a massive margin by-passing the sanctions.
(By the way apparently it’s Hindu new year 2080! Saarmubarak friends. I don’t know why 2000 and 80 , one day will have to look it up)
They have used the sanctions to get the Arab states on side , The Africans and most of the world that was always the third or second. Always the bullied.
Only India and Turkey sitting on the wall now matter. The Oil Sheiks can see that their gangster insurance policy deals nearly a century old ain’t worth shit but all their money is in US treasuries.
They just need to realise it’s worthless. It’s Caesars Money. They just need to render upon the Collective unipolar Caesars what is theirs and not be a bunch of cracked shells left in the sands they have built their castles on.
That’s just what I see from what’s in the public domain – I’m sure they have deeper game plans which we only see the outcomes of in hindsight.
So – no I don’t think loyal Russians of whatever religion and however tied to the illegal apartheid murderous state or in the supposed control of Global Financiers have ANY influence on the decisions and actions of the Masters of the Multipolar World that they are parenting. As Prigozhin snr found out and he had an army and multi billions!
As the old version goes you hold your enemies closer!
When the rouble spike vanished I knew Russia and Xi and the SCO had won the war – the Stalingrad moment, it was done within weeks – ever since it’s just been an inexorable grind to destroy all the Old Imperials Fire power and capacity to ever strike back.
‘Tatters I tell you Tatters’ 😉
Hope that make sense? My brain hurts thinking that out. Need a cuppa or a few pints.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 14 2023 17:27 utc | 146

@57
The only thing Zaluzhny has proven good at is feeding conscripts into the Russian meat grinder, for that he deserves a grenade from his own troops. That said, I can see where the Russians might want to send him a thank you note.

Posted by: Fred777 | Nov 14 2023 17:33 utc | 147

@57
The only thing Zaluzhny has proven good at is feeding conscripts into the Russian meat grinder, for that he deserves a grenade from his own troops. That said, I can see where the Russians might want to send him a thank you note.

Posted by: Fred777 | Nov 14 2023 17:33 utc | 148

@Posted by: Exile | Nov 14 2023 11:02 utc | 5
I covered this in my piece Ukraine: A Country Of Old And Damaged Men as have others on this site. You are off by about 8-9 million, if the population was as low as you state Ukraine would have been finished a while ago given the large numbers of over 60s in the population, plus still reserved occupations, people hiding from the draft, the horrendous losses in dead, seriously injured and captured, children and women.
You provide no logic for your starting point of 34 million.

Posted by: Roger | Nov 14 2023 17:35 utc | 149

@Posted by: Exile | Nov 14 2023 11:02 utc | 5
I covered this in my piece Ukraine: A Country Of Old And Damaged Men as have others on this site. You are off by about 8-9 million, if the population was as low as you state Ukraine would have been finished a while ago given the large numbers of over 60s in the population, plus still reserved occupations, people hiding from the draft, the horrendous losses in dead, seriously injured and captured, children and women.
You provide no logic for your starting point of 34 million.

Posted by: Roger | Nov 14 2023 17:35 utc | 150

c1ue@74
My comment about Z had mainly to do with public perception and the election results rather than with him personally. As to what Kolomoisky’s adgenda for his puppet was, that is not clear to me. Z did make initial moves toward Minsk implementation. What Kolomoisky’s sin was to end up on the outs with the west I’m not sure either. Maybe he wished to cut a deal with Russia.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 17:37 utc | 151

c1ue@74
My comment about Z had mainly to do with public perception and the election results rather than with him personally. As to what Kolomoisky’s adgenda for his puppet was, that is not clear to me. Z did make initial moves toward Minsk implementation. What Kolomoisky’s sin was to end up on the outs with the west I’m not sure either. Maybe he wished to cut a deal with Russia.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 17:37 utc | 152

There’s some discussion of the Zaluzhny v Zelensky ‘duel’ here: Ukraine Weekly Update 10th November: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-a9e

Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Nov 14 2023 17:47 utc | 153

There’s some discussion of the Zaluzhny v Zelensky ‘duel’ here: Ukraine Weekly Update 10th November: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-a9e

Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Nov 14 2023 17:47 utc | 154

Not yet discussed here so far as I know are likely long term health effects on those soldiers staffing the artillery brigades for both the Russian and Ukrainian forces who ultimately survive the conflict. Blast shock wave injuries to soft internal tissues and organs from shell firing was not anticipated by the US in its Afghanistan and Iraq wars, according to a November 5th NYT investigative report. These injuries go far beyond the type of traumatic brain injuries that were in part foreseen.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/us-artillery-isis-takeaways.html?searchResultPosition=1

Posted by: mjh | Nov 14 2023 17:47 utc | 155

Not yet discussed here so far as I know are likely long term health effects on those soldiers staffing the artillery brigades for both the Russian and Ukrainian forces who ultimately survive the conflict. Blast shock wave injuries to soft internal tissues and organs from shell firing was not anticipated by the US in its Afghanistan and Iraq wars, according to a November 5th NYT investigative report. These injuries go far beyond the type of traumatic brain injuries that were in part foreseen.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/us-artillery-isis-takeaways.html?searchResultPosition=1

Posted by: mjh | Nov 14 2023 17:47 utc | 156

From the Military Summary Video More And More Soldiers Refuse To Follow Orders Of The Ukrainian Command it does seem that the morale and discipline within the Ukrainian military, at both the grunt and senior staff levels, is significantly declining. Feels a lot like what happened in WW1 with the French troops rebelling against the senseless slaughter in 1917, the US really bailed out the British and French from late 1917 onwards.
Incredible that so many Ukrainians are still fighting given the horrendous losses and lack of gains. As Russia takes back all the 2023 Spring/Summer Ukie offensive gains, together with Avdiivka and gains in the North, together with a horrendous winter for Ukraine and much lower levels of Western support, perhaps Spring 2024 will bring a much different outlook. No wonder the West is pushing to “freeze” the conflict to fend off total defeat, a freeze the Russians should absolutely ignore.

Posted by: Roger | Nov 14 2023 17:51 utc | 157

From the Military Summary Video More And More Soldiers Refuse To Follow Orders Of The Ukrainian Command it does seem that the morale and discipline within the Ukrainian military, at both the grunt and senior staff levels, is significantly declining. Feels a lot like what happened in WW1 with the French troops rebelling against the senseless slaughter in 1917, the US really bailed out the British and French from late 1917 onwards.
Incredible that so many Ukrainians are still fighting given the horrendous losses and lack of gains. As Russia takes back all the 2023 Spring/Summer Ukie offensive gains, together with Avdiivka and gains in the North, together with a horrendous winter for Ukraine and much lower levels of Western support, perhaps Spring 2024 will bring a much different outlook. No wonder the West is pushing to “freeze” the conflict to fend off total defeat, a freeze the Russians should absolutely ignore.

Posted by: Roger | Nov 14 2023 17:51 utc | 158

So whilst I am interested in the various estimates of numbers posed for Ukraine’s population, my thinking is that even at the lower values the war fighting potential is greater than we might think. Ukraine does have a big army (smaller and less competent and equipped than it was) and it is able to maintain that by Western support.It can devote much more of its popultaion to fighting and dying because of NATO gifts.
Ukraine no longer has a functioning economy and is reliant on western [EU but mainly USA donations] to pay for – well – nearly everything. It can put more troops in the front line as its rear area is to an extent manned by NATO personnel out of the war zone – eg hospitals, repair workshops, planning, logistic centres etc. It produces almost no weapons and is reliant on foreign supplies. Not to mention basic humanitarian aid keeping the civilian economy afloat. Or indeed swimming in US$ in some parts.[Saigon 1973 anyone?]
When you look at it, NATO is supplying arms and cash (a good deal of which is stolen) and the Ukraine is supplying the blood and the bodies. But anyway, the UAF is bigger than it should be in other circumstances and will take more killing than we might think.
However I think the end is in sight, but my guess is next year some time before it implodes. Of course that assumes there is no internal collapse within Ukraine before then, and that is looking likely just now. And if the money hose is turned off then sit back and watch the rats leave the sinking ship.And all this presupposes that arms shipments will continue at a level to keep Ukraine in the fight – a questionable assumption.

Posted by: marcjf | Nov 14 2023 17:53 utc | 159

So whilst I am interested in the various estimates of numbers posed for Ukraine’s population, my thinking is that even at the lower values the war fighting potential is greater than we might think. Ukraine does have a big army (smaller and less competent and equipped than it was) and it is able to maintain that by Western support.It can devote much more of its popultaion to fighting and dying because of NATO gifts.
Ukraine no longer has a functioning economy and is reliant on western [EU but mainly USA donations] to pay for – well – nearly everything. It can put more troops in the front line as its rear area is to an extent manned by NATO personnel out of the war zone – eg hospitals, repair workshops, planning, logistic centres etc. It produces almost no weapons and is reliant on foreign supplies. Not to mention basic humanitarian aid keeping the civilian economy afloat. Or indeed swimming in US$ in some parts.[Saigon 1973 anyone?]
When you look at it, NATO is supplying arms and cash (a good deal of which is stolen) and the Ukraine is supplying the blood and the bodies. But anyway, the UAF is bigger than it should be in other circumstances and will take more killing than we might think.
However I think the end is in sight, but my guess is next year some time before it implodes. Of course that assumes there is no internal collapse within Ukraine before then, and that is looking likely just now. And if the money hose is turned off then sit back and watch the rats leave the sinking ship.And all this presupposes that arms shipments will continue at a level to keep Ukraine in the fight – a questionable assumption.

Posted by: marcjf | Nov 14 2023 17:53 utc | 160

Zelensky gets an airline ticket to Miami. Zalushny gets a bullet to his neck. Whoever is left standing after a 24 hour AK47 circle jerk in Kiev gets to sign over what’s left of the Ukraine to Moscow. DC, London, Bonn, Warsaw get nothing but the contempt that they deserve.

Posted by: Jstert | Nov 14 2023 17:58 utc | 161

Zelensky gets an airline ticket to Miami. Zalushny gets a bullet to his neck. Whoever is left standing after a 24 hour AK47 circle jerk in Kiev gets to sign over what’s left of the Ukraine to Moscow. DC, London, Bonn, Warsaw get nothing but the contempt that they deserve.

Posted by: Jstert | Nov 14 2023 17:58 utc | 162

@ Tedder 61
“Perhaps only grammarians will notice B’s use of “The Ukraine” in this essay. However, it is significant linguistically and socially.
… I learned that English native speakers have a consistent system of using the definite article ‘the’, the indefinite article ‘a, and no article. Of interest is the definite article and the null article.
In a nutshell, when we think of an entity as composed of multiple parts, we use definite articles. …
When we think of an entity as unitary, we use the null article. …”

Excellent point.
English and French are my native tongues, but yet I never totally understood these distinctions – until now. It’s the same in French, BTW, although Latin languages have exceptions, such as L’Argentine. I too have noticed that misuse or non-use of the definitive article is a sure sign of a non-native speaker, when it’s not a typo.

Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 14 2023 18:01 utc | 163

@ Tedder 61
“Perhaps only grammarians will notice B’s use of “The Ukraine” in this essay. However, it is significant linguistically and socially.
… I learned that English native speakers have a consistent system of using the definite article ‘the’, the indefinite article ‘a, and no article. Of interest is the definite article and the null article.
In a nutshell, when we think of an entity as composed of multiple parts, we use definite articles. …
When we think of an entity as unitary, we use the null article. …”

Excellent point.
English and French are my native tongues, but yet I never totally understood these distinctions – until now. It’s the same in French, BTW, although Latin languages have exceptions, such as L’Argentine. I too have noticed that misuse or non-use of the definitive article is a sure sign of a non-native speaker, when it’s not a typo.

Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 14 2023 18:01 utc | 164

“The Russian economy instead of being in ‘tatters’ is booming and will carry on doing so spectacularly, just like the postwar US economy did – having made all the gains while Europe was the one living on po-taters for decades after.”
Really? What about the Marshall Plan, Ludwig Erhard, and the post-War German economic miracle? Even now, despite some efforts to pretend that the Russian economy is as productive as Germany’s, average living standards in German are far higher than in Russia. Russia is about at the level of Greece. There is a reason why a majority of Ukrainian emigres fled to the West and not to the East. However, Germany continues to commit suicide, while Russia has weathered the storm brilliantly.

Posted by: greg | Nov 14 2023 18:06 utc | 165

“The Russian economy instead of being in ‘tatters’ is booming and will carry on doing so spectacularly, just like the postwar US economy did – having made all the gains while Europe was the one living on po-taters for decades after.”
Really? What about the Marshall Plan, Ludwig Erhard, and the post-War German economic miracle? Even now, despite some efforts to pretend that the Russian economy is as productive as Germany’s, average living standards in German are far higher than in Russia. Russia is about at the level of Greece. There is a reason why a majority of Ukrainian emigres fled to the West and not to the East. However, Germany continues to commit suicide, while Russia has weathered the storm brilliantly.

Posted by: greg | Nov 14 2023 18:06 utc | 166

@ bisfugged 76
“(((They))) are dumping the West with this next big war (that the US is planned on losing) and will move all major operations to the East where Xi and possibly Putin will welcome their power and capital with open arms.”
That seems logical based on their track record, but I have not yet seen any proof that Zionism is starting a Pacific Pivot, nor of the West actually planning to lose the wars. Intent is hard to prove or disprove, but I have not seen anything that can’t be more simply and logically attributed to ginormous arrogance, not just of Jews, neocons, etc., but also of the upper layers of American society.
If you have any proof, however meager, I’m sure many people want to see it. What do you have ?

Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 14 2023 18:09 utc | 167

@ bisfugged 76
“(((They))) are dumping the West with this next big war (that the US is planned on losing) and will move all major operations to the East where Xi and possibly Putin will welcome their power and capital with open arms.”
That seems logical based on their track record, but I have not yet seen any proof that Zionism is starting a Pacific Pivot, nor of the West actually planning to lose the wars. Intent is hard to prove or disprove, but I have not seen anything that can’t be more simply and logically attributed to ginormous arrogance, not just of Jews, neocons, etc., but also of the upper layers of American society.
If you have any proof, however meager, I’m sure many people want to see it. What do you have ?

Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 14 2023 18:09 utc | 168

greg@85
On emigres (refugees) – latest numbers are 4 plus million registered in EU, 5 million in Russia…

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:17 utc | 169

greg@85
On emigres (refugees) – latest numbers are 4 plus million registered in EU, 5 million in Russia…

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:17 utc | 170

The EU probably is hosting more than the official number of course.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:19 utc | 171

The EU probably is hosting more than the official number of course.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:19 utc | 172

Posted by: smuks | Nov 14 2023 15:25 utc | 44
“If you replace ‘liberal’ with ‘capitalist’, it becomes more accurate”
There is no point in replacing ‘liberal’ with ‘capitalist’ – the two are in most respects identical, and equally reprehensible. Liberalism is just the political arm of capitalism, and the two are really inseparable.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Nov 14 2023 18:23 utc | 173

Posted by: smuks | Nov 14 2023 15:25 utc | 44
“If you replace ‘liberal’ with ‘capitalist’, it becomes more accurate”
There is no point in replacing ‘liberal’ with ‘capitalist’ – the two are in most respects identical, and equally reprehensible. Liberalism is just the political arm of capitalism, and the two are really inseparable.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Nov 14 2023 18:23 utc | 174

Jams O’Donnell@89
So, no ‘conservative’ capatilists? Get a clue.
In other news Sputnik is reporting on the pro-US ruling party in Taiwan perhaps losing power to a China friendly coalition in Jan elections. The long shadow of Ukraine affecting politics in asia.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:31 utc | 175

Jams O’Donnell@89
So, no ‘conservative’ capatilists? Get a clue.
In other news Sputnik is reporting on the pro-US ruling party in Taiwan perhaps losing power to a China friendly coalition in Jan elections. The long shadow of Ukraine affecting politics in asia.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:31 utc | 176

“capitalists”

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:33 utc | 177

“capitalists”

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 18:33 utc | 178

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 14 2023 16:15 utc | 60
As far as I can tell, ‘Ukraine’ means ‘Borderlands’, so ‘the Borderlands’ / aka ‘the Ukraine’ is a perfectly legitimate usage. But I’m not a Russian speaker, so maybe someone who is can comment on this.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Nov 14 2023 18:35 utc | 179

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 14 2023 16:15 utc | 60
As far as I can tell, ‘Ukraine’ means ‘Borderlands’, so ‘the Borderlands’ / aka ‘the Ukraine’ is a perfectly legitimate usage. But I’m not a Russian speaker, so maybe someone who is can comment on this.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Nov 14 2023 18:35 utc | 180

The end game? Few from Galicia, the Nazi stronghold, have been fed into the grinder. In other parts of Ukraine, the men need to fight the nazis in a neutral Ukraine have been virtual wiped out on the frontlines. I don’t see the SMO ending until that problem is solved. Perhaps some form off agreement that ends frontline fighting with Russia controlling all of the territories to their Administrative borders, but the SMO left open ended which would allow missile or other strikes against any building threats in west Ukraine/Galicia.
Ukraine is just one front in what is now becoming a hybrid global battle against the US empire. Which takes me back to my conclusion in early to mid 22 that the SMO would not end, could not end until the US is defeated globally.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2023 18:39 utc | 181

The end game? Few from Galicia, the Nazi stronghold, have been fed into the grinder. In other parts of Ukraine, the men need to fight the nazis in a neutral Ukraine have been virtual wiped out on the frontlines. I don’t see the SMO ending until that problem is solved. Perhaps some form off agreement that ends frontline fighting with Russia controlling all of the territories to their Administrative borders, but the SMO left open ended which would allow missile or other strikes against any building threats in west Ukraine/Galicia.
Ukraine is just one front in what is now becoming a hybrid global battle against the US empire. Which takes me back to my conclusion in early to mid 22 that the SMO would not end, could not end until the US is defeated globally.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2023 18:39 utc | 182

@ juliania 62
I don’t think there will be any “Ukraine” left, and those regions will not have any “national” capitol. Ruslan Ischenko wrote about this a month or so ago. He wrote about there being no single Ukrainian language. That resulted from the failure of the regions to decide on a single version. (The Poltavan dialect was first chosen, but then discarded because it sounds “too Russian”.) Extrapolating from his essay, I suppose Ischenko thinks Russia will recognize the oblasts as separate entities but not as part of a discredited and soon non-existent “Ukraine”. So Kiev would remain the administrative capitol of Kiev oblast – and nothing more.
Russia might treat Galicia as simply an occupied hostile territory for 20 to 50 years, separately from the rest of “404”, perhaps even dangling Galicia as a potential prize for Poland leaving the West entirely. I doubt Poland will want Galicia, but dangling it as a possible prize would be an excuse for Russia to do very little with Galicia, with its Russian-haters, with its infrastructure and economy. Galicia could get stuffed with Barack Obama style “hope and change” until the people get sick and tired of the BS and make a choice of which civilization they embrace. This will play out over many decades.

Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 14 2023 18:42 utc | 183

@ juliania 62
I don’t think there will be any “Ukraine” left, and those regions will not have any “national” capitol. Ruslan Ischenko wrote about this a month or so ago. He wrote about there being no single Ukrainian language. That resulted from the failure of the regions to decide on a single version. (The Poltavan dialect was first chosen, but then discarded because it sounds “too Russian”.) Extrapolating from his essay, I suppose Ischenko thinks Russia will recognize the oblasts as separate entities but not as part of a discredited and soon non-existent “Ukraine”. So Kiev would remain the administrative capitol of Kiev oblast – and nothing more.
Russia might treat Galicia as simply an occupied hostile territory for 20 to 50 years, separately from the rest of “404”, perhaps even dangling Galicia as a potential prize for Poland leaving the West entirely. I doubt Poland will want Galicia, but dangling it as a possible prize would be an excuse for Russia to do very little with Galicia, with its Russian-haters, with its infrastructure and economy. Galicia could get stuffed with Barack Obama style “hope and change” until the people get sick and tired of the BS and make a choice of which civilization they embrace. This will play out over many decades.

Posted by: JessDTruth | Nov 14 2023 18:42 utc | 184

Cocaine Guy isn’t ready to go, and it would not be easy to extract him alive even if he wanted. His own naysee people will take care
Posted by: Augusto Pi | Nov 14 2023 11:52 utc | 10
————————————————————–
“…he ends up like Qaddafi.” Not that would be justice ⚖.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 18:49 utc | 185

Cocaine Guy isn’t ready to go, and it would not be easy to extract him alive even if he wanted. His own naysee people will take care
Posted by: Augusto Pi | Nov 14 2023 11:52 utc | 10
————————————————————–
“…he ends up like Qaddafi.” Not that would be justice ⚖.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 18:49 utc | 186

@ Jams O’Donnell | Nov 14 2023 18:35 utc | 92
I’m sure I’m not the first to note that neither Russian nor Ukrainian has articles, so one can’t say “the Ukraine” in either language.
“The Ukraine” was the usual form in English until maybe a generation or so ago. Using the article has a hint of “region” rather than “state” — as does “The Netherlands”— which in Dutch is singular! — although the Dutch aren’t complaining … yet.
How about we revert to calling it “Little Tussia”? Problem solved! 😉

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 14 2023 18:49 utc | 187

@ Jams O’Donnell | Nov 14 2023 18:35 utc | 92
I’m sure I’m not the first to note that neither Russian nor Ukrainian has articles, so one can’t say “the Ukraine” in either language.
“The Ukraine” was the usual form in English until maybe a generation or so ago. Using the article has a hint of “region” rather than “state” — as does “The Netherlands”— which in Dutch is singular! — although the Dutch aren’t complaining … yet.
How about we revert to calling it “Little Tussia”? Problem solved! 😉

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 14 2023 18:49 utc | 188

“…he ends up like Qaddafi.” NOW that would be justice ⚖.
Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 18:49 utc | 95

Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 18:50 utc | 189

“…he ends up like Qaddafi.” NOW that would be justice ⚖.
Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 18:49 utc | 95

Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 18:50 utc | 190

Oops! Not “Tussia” of course, although that makes for a naughty German slang pun, especially in red-light districts.

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 14 2023 18:50 utc | 191

Oops! Not “Tussia” of course, although that makes for a naughty German slang pun, especially in red-light districts.

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 14 2023 18:50 utc | 192

FWIW, b explained his usage of „the Ukraine“ in a dedicated post sometime last year. Couldn’t find it with a Google search though, just too many hits for „Ukraine on site:moonofalabama.org“ 😉

Posted by: Zet | Nov 14 2023 18:59 utc | 193

FWIW, b explained his usage of „the Ukraine“ in a dedicated post sometime last year. Couldn’t find it with a Google search though, just too many hits for „Ukraine on site:moonofalabama.org“ 😉

Posted by: Zet | Nov 14 2023 18:59 utc | 194

Ukraine is just one front in what is now becoming a hybrid global battle against the US empire. Which takes me back to my conclusion in early to mid 22 that the SMO would not end, could not end until the US is defeated globally.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2023 18:39 utc | 93
——————————————————————–
Defeated how? Militarily (fat chance)? Economically (maybe, but what would that look like)? An internal civil war (we have been doing that for 30 years)? Nuclear war (talking about throwing out the baby with the bath water)?
Peter, do you have any ideas, because I don’t see them? Long term corrosion is out only hope, but most or all of us will be dead by then. Of course, climate change and lack of fresh water will get us all soon enough. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but wars, and more wars. are our future.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 19:06 utc | 195

Ukraine is just one front in what is now becoming a hybrid global battle against the US empire. Which takes me back to my conclusion in early to mid 22 that the SMO would not end, could not end until the US is defeated globally.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2023 18:39 utc | 93
——————————————————————–
Defeated how? Militarily (fat chance)? Economically (maybe, but what would that look like)? An internal civil war (we have been doing that for 30 years)? Nuclear war (talking about throwing out the baby with the bath water)?
Peter, do you have any ideas, because I don’t see them? Long term corrosion is out only hope, but most or all of us will be dead by then. Of course, climate change and lack of fresh water will get us all soon enough. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but wars, and more wars. are our future.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 14 2023 19:06 utc | 196

Interesting. But those damned Ruskies have no problem with this sort of lexical subtlties: they have no article at all.

Posted by: jean levant | Nov 14 2023 19:16 utc | 197

Interesting. But those damned Ruskies have no problem with this sort of lexical subtlties: they have no article at all.

Posted by: jean levant | Nov 14 2023 19:16 utc | 198

Mike Pompousnose appointed to Kievstar board. The rats are still climbing aboard the Titanic trying to feather their nests as the band plays on.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 19:30 utc | 199

Mike Pompousnose appointed to Kievstar board. The rats are still climbing aboard the Titanic trying to feather their nests as the band plays on.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 14 2023 19:30 utc | 200