Palestine Open Thread 2023-275
Only for news & views directly related to the war in Palestine.
The current open thread for other issues is here.
Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Posted by b on November 18, 2023 at 11:46 UTC | Permalink
next page »Scenes from Al Shifa Hospital following the Israeli occupation forces order to evacuate everyone from medical crews to injuries and patients. 18.11.23
Posted by: Pq | Nov 18 2023 12:19 utc | 1
How long until Zionist bs returns to it's dominant position?
Right now accusatory words like antisemitism ring hollow and hypocritical;
The Holocaust as a bludgeon for silence is the same.
But the propagandists will not skip a beat and people have short memory spans.
Posted by: librul | Nov 18 2023 12:26 utc | 2
https://t.me/ResistanceTrench/20818
This is some nefarious stuff. All Palestinians leaving the north are put through a id process before leaving. Facial recognition smartphone qcodes . The digital passport as such . Israel is obviously using this data for war purposes not some benevolent humanitarian documentation. Can imagine it will be moved to Egypt bordee before final expulsion and any persons wanted will be gathered and disappeared
Posted by: Hankster | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 3
we crossed a red line here, it seems NATO (white genociders) vs BRICS world war is coming.
Everyone can see who runs US/EU/NATO and the media now. Questioning them will get you fired.
Credibility of these institutions has gone to zero.
Posted by: cafe_con_leche2 | Nov 18 2023 12:35 utc | 4
Well, there goes your so called "international law" down the toilet like the bulllshit it's always been.
Just like your "international community" which was always just a white boy's club.
I'll think twice the next time I see "international ..." on anything I buy from now on ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 13:09 utc | 5
I can not be alone in being revolted by both Hamas & Nuttyahoo.
As well as the deep divisions the Gaza war/ genocide is exposing in pretty much every society.
The big question for me is: Is the US/Anglo empire mad enough to be thinking ‘at last, a wider ME conflict which will take us all the way to Tehran? OR is said empire blindsided by events and while unable to control the current Tel Aviv regime also alarmed that escalation could see them losing even more control & influence.
Time will tell.
The failure of the Arab nations to break ties with Israel or even offer up much criticism at all - is either smart (an attempt to not inflame the situation and play into the potential US/Anglo wider war ambition) OR weak (total failure to demonstrate solidarity with Palestinians) - Again, time will tell.
But the outlook is not great, more suffering & bloodshed, more wasted resources, more social & economic instability are all going to be hard to avoid. Where is the will to avoid it going to come from ?
Posted by: AndrewB | Nov 18 2023 13:26 utc | 6
There are many potential hidden strategic reasons for the current Gaza war, religious, economic, military, land grab etc.
The Gaza Marine, a major natural gas field located 36 kilometers (22 mi) off the coast of the Gaza Strip at a depth of 610 meters, could be one of them, if not the major reason. A find capable of transforming Gaza in the same way as the North Sea did for the UK and Norway and earlier, Holland.
Strange we hear nothing about it in the western MSM.
This is a link to a map showing it.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_L5sombkAAsxFO?format=jpg&name=small
Posted by: JohninMK | Nov 18 2023 13:27 utc | 7
Hankster | Nov 18 2023 12:31 utc | 3
Israel is obviously using this data for war purposes not some benevolent humanitarian documentation. Can imagine it will be moved to Egypt bordee before final expulsion and any persons wanted will be gathered and disappeared
I agree Hank
Humanitarian and benevolent?
Doesn't exist in these creatures
This murderous vampiric cult feasts on pain, suffering and death.
They will pursue any percieved enemy or slight to the ends of the earth in their rabid revenge no matter the cost because they are insane.
They are happy to fry their own people to hang on to their victim card
I pin my hopes on the beggaring of its host
Posted by: ld | Nov 18 2023 13:42 utc | 9
18.11 2023 - WORLD FOOD PROGRAM: Gaza is facing famine and all bakeries in the Strip have stopped.
Erdogan today: machine translation, Ria Novosti
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Saturday that Israel is holding about ten thousand Palestinians.
"Israel is holding about ten thousand Palestinians hostage. Let Germany take steps to have these people released, and then we will make efforts to free those held by Hamas. But they (Germany) did not agree to this," Erdogan said at a meeting of the council of the Turkish Students' Association.
He also noted that during his visit to Germany, he was convinced that "the whole Western world and the imperialist structure of the crusaders are together."
Posted by: JB | Nov 18 2023 14:04 utc | 10
RE: AndrewB | Nov 18 2023 13:26 utc | 6
“OR weak (total failure to demonstrate solidarity with Palestinians) - Again, time will tell.”
There has NEVER been a “solidarity” in the last 70 years of Palestinian/Israeli conflict… as “time has told” that obvious fact already.
All the surrounding Arab nations now have to decide, is how much of their own territory will they turn over without a fight in the future. That’s all that’s on their mind. Or do they end it here?
It would appear they’ll sleep on it and figure that out another day.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Nov 18 2023 14:08 utc | 11
“Israel perpetrates a massacre in the Al Fakhura School in Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza, killing and wounding dozens of displaced civilians.”
Posted by: Apollyon | Nov 18 2023 14:31 utc | 12
Wall Street Journal (WSJ)enables ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
The WSJ permitted two Israeli Knesset members to publish an opinion piece (it is behind a paywall)
urging Western nations to accept Palestinians forced out of Gaza.
One of these critters, Danny Danon, was Israel's Ambassador to the UN. He is a high member of Likud and his is a name
that you might want to remember as the vultures are circling for Netanyahu's hide and this critter wants power.
The other author was deputy director of Mossad before he became a politician.
The WSJ permits Mossad to publish opinion pieces urging ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
Posted by: librul | Nov 18 2023 14:34 utc | 13
CBN News Headline:
"Terrified Palestinian Christians fear genocide, murder at the hands of Islamic extremists, Hamas ..."
(Both, genocide and murder!? A twofer!)
This is the kind of eye watering stupidity you get from the American fundamentalist Christian media ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2023 14:34 utc | 14
Israel-Palestine Weekly Update 17th Nov - May be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/israel-palestine-weekly-update
Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Nov 18 2023 14:53 utc | 15
where are my striped pajamas?
My crime is that of living
on my ancestral home
gave to men that hate me
by some king upon a throne
I sit upon the rubble
deep beneath my family lies
even though I know they're gone
I still hear my daughter's cries
They came and stole our land
the country of our birth
burnd our fields and left us
this little patch of Earth.
Even this they can't abide
so finally it's genocide
you watched this time on tv
and still you looked away
where is my museum?
selective holocaust
ther've been so many Mai Lais
since humanity was lost
Posted by: ld | Nov 18 2023 15:02 utc | 16
Awww, what a happy family. Simplicius reads me. I read Simplicius.
I said: Say, what’s up with the empire — at this juncture — releasing Iran’s own money — a batch from Iraq — from the pound. Speaking of the pound, is this hush money to keep the dogs back in the pound, and stop them from barking?
Simplicius says: That’s right—this is my second reason as proof. Biden is now offering to bribe Iran with a massive $10B as concession to make them stop escalating.
And says this for that barfly anon: The U.S. is acting as a rudderless ship, rushing to the MidEast out of reflex with no clear gameplan, and is in fact terrified of Iranian escalations.
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/israel-and-americas-growing-zugzwang
Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Nov 18 2023 15:31 utc | 17
The US game plan is as ancient as they come: divide and conquer.
Smack down any upstart power.
Posted by: Seer | Nov 18 2023 15:51 utc | 18
"The big question for me is: Is the US/Anglo empire mad enough to be thinking ‘at last, a wider ME conflict which will take us all the way to Tehran?"
Posted by: AndrewB | Nov 18 2023 13:26 utc | 6
The US/Anglo empire will do what it's told.
Posted by: dh | Nov 18 2023 15:52 utc | 19
At Concordia University in Montreal there was a physical fight this week because of the Palestine issue between the usual suspects. Now a 15-million class-action lawsuit has been filed against the university and the student union.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 16:20 utc | 20
Montreal is no stranger to school sholtings. What can you do to help? Turn down the rhetoric. No calls for genocide on either side.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 16:23 utc | 21
Well, on we go with business as usual save for the manifest defeat of the West in Ukraine which has now been eclipsed by the persistent impunity of Israel to pursue its Nazi post-holocaust heritage. Only Russia's steadfast stance accomplished the former and I suspect that only similar insistence on the part of the U.S. public ("don't hold your breath" being the appropriate expectation) could accomplish the latter (writing our congresscriters elicits the usual weasel-worded replies): so much for 'the rest of the world' and the farce that is the U.N.
Kudos to 'b' for holding the fort here just in case it may eventually lead to some less dismal outcome. Is attention to MoA and places like Consortium News growing at a sufficient pace to generate at least s modicum of optimism, or are people like me abandoning their better natures and moving to the "For every Israeli that dies there's a song in my heart" attitude and only continuing their personal resistance?
Anyone think they know where the beef is?
Posted by: StirThePot | Nov 18 2023 16:40 utc | 22
Well, on we go with business as usual save for the manifest defeat of the West in Ukraine which has now been eclipsed by the persistent impunity of Israel to pursue its Nazi post-holocaust heritage. Only Russia's steadfast stance accomplished the former and I suspect that only similar insistence on the part of the U.S. public ("don't hold your breath" being the appropriate expectation) could accomplish the latter (writing our congresscriters elicits the usual weasel-worded replies): so much for 'the rest of the world' and the farce that is the U.N.
Kudos to 'b' for holding the fort here just in case it may eventually lead to some less dismal outcome. Is attention to MoA and places like Consortium News growing at a sufficient pace to generate at least s modicum of optimism, or are people like me abandoning their better natures and moving to the "For every Israeli that dies there's a song in my heart" attitude and only continuing their personal resistance?
Anyone think they know where the beef is?
Posted by: StirThePot | Nov 18 2023 16:40 utc | 23
It bothers me seeing all those helpless Palestinians being murdered. I wish they would do something to make their last few days meaningful, like a mass rush against the Gaza fence. Put some bulldozers out front, smash the fences again and pour into their ancestral homeland in their hundreds of thousands. Better to die quickly and with dignity from Jewish machine guns than being thirsted and starved to death in the rubble of Gaza. Many will make it to Jewish towns. It might be enough of a wake up call to the rest of the world to see Israel murdering thousands of Palestinians at once with machine guns to shock the world into stopping the horror that is Israel.
Posted by: Chas | Nov 18 2023 16:44 utc | 24
Hopefully there is someone on this thread who can add up the weekly costs of the current US armada in the Mediterranean and the Red Sea: In the Mediterranean the Gerald Ford + four Arleigh Burke destroyers. As well as the Eisenhower with additional destroyers. Also four squadrons of aircraft, and missile equipped submarine. In the Red Sea are the Bataan, the Carney and 3 additional large scale military craft are being added. Given that the operational cost for 1 Arleigh Burke per tour is $81 million, the daily and weekly expense of maintaining this armada could be predicted to be staggering. Given the extent of this very, very expensive protective shield around Israel, it is not surprising that state actors are operating very carefully, understanding full well that Biden and Blinkin are hoping for a legitimate trigger to unleash the full power of this group, as well as effectively establishing a cordon around Israel, allowing them to proceed unimpeded in their genocide. Meanwhile, the operational costs can be expected further exacerbate the US debt which is at unprecedented levels, and whose cost of borrowing has significantly elevated with the increase in interest rates. State actors now have only to stand by and watch the US implode financially. Israel, spending more than 250 million per day, has already imploded its economy. Both countries are in negative territory as regards financial ratings. Inquiring minds would predict that this level of expense is unsustainable and the true fiscal costs are being hidden from US/Israeli citizens
Posted by: abierno | Nov 18 2023 16:46 utc | 25
I just hope that somebody is protecting Al- Asqa. A few bombs there could easely wreck total havoc, and will suit the Israeli fine. Why should they not take it now and blame it on the Hezbolla or Hamas?
Posted by: Paul from Norway | Nov 18 2023 16:57 utc | 26
Montreal is no stranger to school sholtings. What can you do to help? Turn down the rhetoric. No calls for genocide on either side.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 16:23 utc | 21
Montreal a cesspoole of canada's largest diaspora
of course there will be blood at a multicultural university s the Jews get more... Hazbratty
only one side is genocidal
Posted by: ld | Nov 18 2023 16:59 utc | 27
The Israeli NGO, Zaka Search and Rescue, reported that they removed 260 bodies from the Nova Music Festival, of which 200 were Israelis who had been killed by Apache helicopters. That probably menas the remaining 60 were either Palestinians or foreigners, also killed by the IDF. I do not see how the IDF could accidentally kill hundreds of kids at a rave. It had to be deliberate.
https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-11-17-israels-aerial-attack-killed-over-260-civilian.html
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Nov 18 2023 17:32 utc | 28
"I just hope that somebody is protecting Al- Asqa. A few bombs there could easely wreck total havoc, and will suit the Israeli fine. Why should they not take it now and blame it on the Hezbolla or Hamas?"
Mohammed never set foot in Jerusalem. The AL Aqsa mosque is just Muslims claiming a holy Christian site for no reason other than because they could.
The AL Aqsa mosque has a message that blasphemes Christ written on its exterior. It is begging to be destroyed. I hope it does get destroyed. And I hope the Jews get expelled from Palestine, too.
A pox on both their houses.
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Nov 18 2023 17:36 utc | 29
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Nov 18 2023 17:32 utc | 27
If so, somebody has to have the guts to say it: a false flag.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 17:38 utc | 30
Lebanese TV :
…. Al-Quds Brigades says Two Israeli tanks and a bulldozer were destroyed in Beit Hanoun and west of Beit Lahi……
Tally now 86 MBTs claimed to be knocked out
Posted by: Exile | Nov 18 2023 18:02 utc | 31
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Nov 18 2023 17:32 utc | 27
If so, somebody has to have the guts to say it: a false flag.
According to Max Blumenthal, in today's interview in RT's "Going Underground" show, it was neither a false flag (where the Israeli government would have staged the whole thing) nor a simple LIHOP (where they see it coming but take no defensive action whatsoever, because they, for political reasons, secretly welcome the attacks). Rather, Hamas did certain things and then the IDF got involved, and they pointed their helicopter guns and artillery at the festival visitors, or at residential buildings of a kibbuz, killing many of their own countrymen. These victims were, of course, later blamed on Hamas.
Why would the IDF do such a thing? It's because they have the policy to preferably shoot somebody instead of letting them become hostages. Exchanging hostages has proved to be expensive and time consuming, which is not to Netanyahu's liking.
Posted by: grunzt | Nov 18 2023 18:20 utc | 32
Posted by: AndrewB | Nov 18 2023 13:26 utc | 6
'I can not be alone in being revolted by both Hamas & Nuttyahoo.
As well as the deep divisions the Gaza war/ genocide is exposing in pretty much every society.'
Most of the Jewish community would agree with you on your revulsion toward Hamas. Most of the rest of the world in truth would not share that revulsion, understanding the extent of torture and humiliation the people of Palestine have endured from infancy to the elderly. A people incarcerated like unwanted livestock, disposesessed their native land. Hamas is the natural offspring of such a condition, a groulp with enough balls to fight back. Of course the propaganda lies we are fed would have us believe they are murdering demons. To their people they are heroes. Most aroind the world are waking up and seeing through the sea of lies Israel and its western government vassals constantly force feed us.
Posted by: Áobh Ó'Sheachnasaigh | Nov 18 2023 18:35 utc | 33
Exchanging hostages has proved to be expensive and time consuming, which is not to Netanyahu's liking.
Posted by: grunzt | Nov 18 2023 18:20 utc | 31
The Gaza operation may be to Netanyahu's liking but is it not expensive and time consuming? Supposing the hostages will ever be found alive.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 18:46 utc | 34
Spain has been outspoken about the zionists. It is now about to officially recognize Palestine as a state.
www.reuters.com/world/europe/biggest-protest-spain-against-catalan-amnesty-law-draws-170000-2023-11-18/ "Biggest protest in Spain against Catalan amnesty law draws 170,000"
Color revolution in progress methinks.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 18 2023 18:54 utc | 35
Jeremy Corbyn called Hamas a terrorist group in The Tribune yesterday:
"If we understand terrorism to describe the indiscriminate killing of civilians, in breach of international law, then of course Hamas is a terrorist group. The targeting of hospitals, refugee camps and so-called safe zones by the Israeli army are acts of terror too; and the killing of more than 11,000 people, half of whom are children, cannot possibly be understood as acts of self-defence."
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 19:02 utc | 36
Israel perpetrates a massacre in the Al Fakhura School in Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza, killing and wounding dozens of displaced civilians.”
Posted by: Apollyon | Nov 18 2023 14:31 utc | 12
This is what I was terrified of in the first week when Israel kept insisting there are boogeymen in hospitals and started systematically targeting each and every one. They are absolute sadists.
"All across the Gaza Strip there are thousands of wounded with no access to treatment. Now there are no more hospitals in Gaza City and a single hospital in the whole of the northern part of the strip many of them will die of these wounds. If not most.
No longer able to provide surgeries at Ahli Hosp. The hospital is now effectively a first aid station. Hundreds of wounded now at hospital with no access to surgery. They will die from their wounds
Where do you bury a little boy's leg?"
Dr Ghassan Abu Sitta
https://t.me/VanessaBeeley/21118?single
Posted by: Pq | Nov 18 2023 19:15 utc | 37
Part of the problem for the Arab states is that Neither Hezbollah nor Hamas, should the win out, are unlikely to be allies for most of them. So, while they may not like Israel, do they really want these radical groups to be the replacement? Seems unlikely.
Posted by: Jmaas | Nov 18 2023 19:23 utc | 38
Jonathan W | Nov 18 2023 18:46 utc | 33
Sorry for mixing you up with Rhinoskerous!
Posted by: grunzt | Nov 18 2023 19:35 utc | 39
Jmaas | Nov 18 2023 19:23 utc | 36
When it comes to resistance organisations, the Palestinians are hardly radical. Hamas is MB so they will be allies of Turkey, Qatar, a good part of Egypt ect. No idea at the moment who the west bank movements are aligned with.
There may be other smaller groups in Gaza back by other muslim countries. But all are fighting the zionists. The over riding factor is Jerusalem and the Mosque and on that, most if not all muslim countries are united.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 18 2023 19:37 utc | 40
It’s well known that abused turn into abusers.
Been proved by the natzios actions.
Too many eye for eyes has left them not just blind but psychopathic.
I’m sure there were many Germans who were never nazis, but the ones who didn’t fight them were co-opted and guilty as they let themselves be.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 18 2023 19:40 utc | 41
Neither Hezbollah nor Hamas, should the win out, are unlikely to be allies for most of them.
Posted by: Jmaas | Nov 18 2023 19:23 utc | 36
How do you know? Israel has succeeded in making them allies. And in the hasbara version they're both proxies of Iran. Sectarian splits in Islam have disappeared under the Israeli onslaught.
Posted by: laguerre | Nov 18 2023 19:44 utc | 42
JB 10
Erdogan and Iqwani Muslimeen work for USUKIS. Erdogan is like a pressure gauge on an unvented heating system.
The system is designed to run under pressure . He is part of the colonial system. He is announcing that the dial has gone into red and will shortly explode into WW3.
It's been clear from the start that Muslim Brotherhood planned this operation from within the Empire of USUKIS, to cover up Empire 's failed plan to break Russia financially.
Hamas are tools to try to bump start Greater Israel in spite of Russia's objections to the destruction of the borders of sovereign states .
Erdogan's goal in belonging to Empire is different to Empire2 's goals.
Empire 2 wants to secure colonial resources so that it can continue to be a civilised garden.
Erdogan's goal is to awaken the sleeping Muslims of the Russian Federation who remain under Soviet oppression in spite of limited reforms.
Who came to Islam by the sword can only conceive of converting others by the sword. Empire wants to harness this violence to its own colonial goals.
Europeans feel as though they are being genociced slowly by the invasion of asylum seekers from Muslim countries who don't share Christian values of respect for others. Empire does this deliberately. Erdogan is just the pressure guage of Empire's great reset in which we will own nothing and have no personal opinions.
Last but not least, First Minister of Scotland Humza Yousaf is another
Muslim Brotherhood confederate of USUKIS Empire. His pressure gauge is also on the red part of the dial.
Does that mean that he cares about the Palestinians? No. His group made the problem in Gaza for which he is now sweeping the violin strings.
Posted by: Giyane | Nov 18 2023 20:07 utc | 43
Posted by: ld | Nov 18 2023 15:02 utc | 16
Beautiful and touching, thank you
And thank you B
Slava Lira
Posted by: Paul from Norway | Nov 18 2023 20:08 utc | 44
It’s well known that abused turn into abusers.
@ DunGroanin | Nov 18 2023 19:40 utc | 39
"Hurt people hurt people" caregivers are accustomed to say. We need a quantifier for the possibility of healing, as in "Most, many, or some hurt people hurt people." On behalf of hurt people, I have to hope the cycle is not inescapable.
This is one reading of the story of Abraham, commanded by a voice he identified as God's to slay his own son -- a command retracted at the last moment by another voice, also God's, maybe. It might be a story about breaking the intergenerational cycle of violence.
Or it might be just another encounter out on Hwy 61. Interpretations vary widely...
God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe said "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God said "No!" Abe said "What?"
God said "You can do what you want Abe, but
the next time you see me comin', you better run"
"Well," Abe said, "where you want this killin' done?"
God said "Out on Highway 61"
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Nov 18 2023 20:17 utc | 45
Posted by: grunzt | Nov 18 2023 18:20 utc | 31
Why would they do such a thing?
The rave was in fact a "celebration of peace and love"
https://globalnews.ca/news/10013207/israel-attack-music-festival/amp/
Poster girl Shani was a concientous objector who had skipped compulsory military service.
What could me more repulsive to warmongering Zionazis than a bunch of peaceniks and draft dodgers?
It's no wonder that the festival was moved closer to Gaza.
Posted by: Sir Reginald | Nov 18 2023 20:36 utc | 46
There has NEVER been a “solidarity” in the last 70 years of Palestinian/Israeli conflict…
Posted by: Trubind1 | Nov 18 2023 14:08 utc | 11
Oh yes, a classic hasbara talking point. Well, there is now. Israel has succeeded in uniting all Muslims against it. That won't necessarily lead to a grand military coalition against Israel; most of the significant Arab states can't face Israel militarily. It'll happen otherwise. Much like the end of the Crusades did (took a century).
Posted by: laguerre | Nov 18 2023 20:45 utc | 47
@ Aleph_Null | Nov 18 2023 20:17 utc | 43
A propos the situation in general:
You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun
Crying like a fire in the sun
Look out the saints are comin’ through
And it’s all over now, Baby Blue
Posted by: Cabe | Nov 18 2023 20:59 utc | 48
US Says Release of Hostages Needed for Gaza to Get More Aid
“The surge in humanitarian relief, the surge in fuel, the pause in fighting will come when hostages are released,” said Brett McGurk, who is President Joe Biden’s Coordinator for the Middle East and North Africa."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-says-hamas-must-release-091409483.html
In plain sight of the world, which is watching, the US gov't wants to broker life saving aid for hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians, for 200+ Israeli hostages held by hamas.
Did someone drop a magnet on their moral compass?
Posted by: bubbles | Nov 18 2023 21:00 utc | 49
The growing assessment in Israel's security establishment is that Hamas terrorists who committed the October 7 massacre didn’t have advance knowledge about the Nova music festival held next to Kibbutz Re’im, and decided to target the party spontaneously.The assessment is based on terrorist interrogations and the police’s investigation of the incident, among other things, which reveal that the terrorists intended to reach Re’im and other kibbutzim nearby.
According to a police source, the investigation also shows that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived to the scene and fired at terrorists there apparently also hit some revelers. According to police, 364 people were murdered at the festival. (...)
Posted by: Apollyon | Nov 18 2023 21:02 utc | 50
Despite all the zionist-western propaganda lies to the contrary, I am seeing President Recep Tyyip Erdogon in a new light. How come then, when the Zionist-US backed coup d'etat to oust Erdogan and institute their puppet Gulen in his stead met with IMMEDIATE mobilization of virtually entire nation of 90 million people? All he did was call on them once, and they showed their love and loyalty to him. The Turkish citizenry rallied to protect him. Shoemakers, bakers, accountants, carpenters, bricklayers, shop-owners; people from all walks of life, came united on to the streets, taking on the minority elements of treasonous military that fired upon them.
Ask yourself, seriously, how can this man engender such love and loyalty of his people, such that they would gladly fight to protect him? Would any current leader in the west have a nation stop everything immediately to come to his aid? Not one, is my guess. Would you take to the streets for Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Newsom etc.? You catch my drift.
We are force-fed propaganda. We are becoming slaves in the west. God help the crazed zionist-nazi genociders in Israel if Erdogan decides to call the Crescent of Islam to follow him on a holy mission to protect Palestine by force. It will be curtains for the greater biblical Israel project.
Posted by: Áobh Ó'Sheachnasaigh | Nov 18 2023 21:07 utc | 51
Israel is a genocide state and as such it can no longer be tolerated as an entity.
Only elect leaders that will sanction and dismantle the baby killing racist worthless slime and remove the filthy stink of Zionist scum and their media shit across the globe.
No tolerance of any human shit flying the flag of the baby killers or justifying the genocide of Palestinians - make it illegal for a dirty filthy Nazi Zionist pig to even speak.
A worthless colonialist crooked lying baby killing nation of the European imperialist shit - flush this state to history and ship its satanic filth to America.
Let the pigs of Biden rot in the anus of the paedo nation.
#FreePalestine and dismantle the shit of humanity that is Israel.
Posted by: Timbo | Nov 18 2023 21:17 utc | 52
Posted by: ld | Nov 18 2023 15:02 utc | 16
Poignant
My Lai March 16, 1968 should be a reminder for the boomers who seem to have lost their way. There was of course no politician or Sr. military man held accountable, but there was someone who stood up at great risk to himself to stop the horror. His name was Hugh Thompson.
Posted by: bubbles | Nov 18 2023 21:33 utc | 53
Posted by: Áobh Ó'Sheachnasaigh | Nov 18 2023 21:07 utc | 49
Do you work at the Onion?
Posted by: bubbles | Nov 18 2023 21:37 utc | 54
Hopefully there is someone on this thread who can add up the weekly costs of the current US armada
Abierno 24 We would need top secret clearance. Nobody wants the US taxpayer to freak out.
About what really happened on Oct 7, I suggest the following links below which are the original articles. Everyone else is republishing these as mashed potatoes. IMHO there’s a tiny bit of LIHOP, a nasty bit of false flag in the coverup, a lot of incompetence. TLDR: Most civilians likely killed by Israel but blamed on H.
For the final military summary this is Scott Ritter's assessment. Nov 13: https://www.scottritterextra.com/p/the-october-7-hamas-assault-on-israel
Ritter, the UN Weapons Inspector who said Iraq had no WMD describes Hamas as conducting a successful military raid “disciplined, deadly, and determined”. While being courteous with civilians. He thinks it was Israel's reliance on AI algos / dodgy tech / incompetence / hubris that led them to underestimate Hamas. Some LIHOP in that Hamas had been observed playing war games but this was dismissed.
WSJ has recently put out a video saying Hamas operated in a very sophisticated way to disable all the surveillance equipment and the robot machine guns on the fence.
Hamas have always claimed it was a military operation targeting only military bases and related kibbutzim (which they consider not combatants as they have armed security). Seems military was quickly overrun. Hostages taken to exchange for Palestinian prisoners. They say the only civilians they may have killed happened inadvertently in crossfire. This seems to be backed up by Israeli witnesses.
Hamas itself (I doubt they've been surfing the net) probably has no clue about the lurid atrocities they have been accused of. They were in uniform so all video that came out with a delay of guys in jeans and sneakers could be anyone. Eg the silly bodycam of a gun shooting at toilet doors at the rave: we don’t see the guy holding the gun. Hamas have never said they went to a rave. Now Israel admits it. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/tv-police-probe-of-reim-massacre-shows-terrorists-didnt-know-about-party-in-advance/
The unconvincing footage of guys in normal clothes “kidnapping people” at the rave came out much later when the propaganda campaign was under way. That is probably staged by Israel itself imho.
The first to mention the Haaretz list of dead was Hamas guy on Rania Khalek's show on Oct 21. (This is an excellent channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_4wJMm3KEs)
He said of the 600 names released at that date, almost 400 were soldiers and police. That initial “1400 civilians” claim was BS. (The Haaretz list is a whole article by itself, they've been fiddling with it over the 3 weeks. It now include soldiers killed in Gaza since oct 27 as well as a lot of other nonsense eg people killed in Egypt wtf).
Haaretz now claim that the total number of Israeli + foreign civilians killed ON and SINCE Oct 7 is under 800 by WHOM?
These articles suggest the majority of civilians were killed by Israel itself but deliberately attributed to Hamas by the Israeli government. So that is a “false flag” element in the coverup even if it was not planned before Oct 7 and was the result of spontaneous incompetence.
Oct 22: Got the ball rolling https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
Oct 24: Follow up to Mondoweiss. Inlakesh later posted a slightly updated version to Unz.comhttps://new.thecradle.co/articles/what-really-happened-on-7th-october
Oct 27 https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
Currently, the total Haaretz list is under 1,200 (civilians, foreigners, non-civilians, including everyone killed from Oct 7 until today).
Posted by: pq | Nov 18 2023 21:39 utc | 55
Appolyon 48
Music festival a celebration of sexual freedom and a necessary release from intense theological,
indoctrination, hopefully not accompanied by torture - chemical - psychological manipulation.
Posted by: Giyane | Nov 18 2023 21:46 utc | 56
Áobh Ó'Sheachnasaigh 49
The Turks share Erdogan's contempt for their country's neighbours who the previously tyrannise over
Just a dog-whistle charlatan like Trump and Boris Johnson.
Posted by: Giyane | Nov 18 2023 21:57 utc | 57
@afe_con_leche2
"we crossed a red line here, it seems NATO (white genociders) vs BRICS world war is coming."
NATO is a military alliance, whereas BRICS is a economic union. War seems unlikely; moreso when you consider that BRICS member states are largely still beholden to SWIFT. A lot has to change before what you propose becomes a reality.
RE: AndrewB | Nov 18 2023 13:26 utc | 6
“OR weak (total failure to demonstrate solidarity with Palestinians) - Again, time will tell.”
There has NEVER been a “solidarity” in the last 70 years of Palestinian/Israeli conflict… as “time has told” that obvious fact already.
All the surrounding Arab nations now have to decide, is how much of their own territory will they turn over without a fight in the future. That’s all that’s on their mind. Or do they end it here?
It would appear they’ll sleep on it and figure that out another day.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Nov 18 2023 14:08 utc | 11
Rather "Takiya" or "good cop / bad cop" in Hollywood fashion ...
Bleeding the beast by thousand cuts, while pretending business as usual ...
Posted by: Greg Galloway | Nov 18 2023 22:19 utc | 59
Posted by: Seer | Nov 18 2023 15:51 utc | 18The US game plan is as ancient as they come: divide and conquer.
Smack down any upstart power.
Could be. But it is beginning to feel more like they are doing whatever they can to persuade themselves that they are still a Big Dog. They know for sure they are not the only Big Dog any more - something which even a few years ago would have been loudly refuted.
Economically, culturally and diplomatically they have little geopolitical clout. Militarily somewhat but only if they go apeshit with long-range missiles not mano-a-mano with boots on the ground.
The West Should Welcome Gaza Refugees
Netanyahu bronze age gov't continues to push for 'reducing' the number of residents of Gaza. Not all at once tho.
A slow march approach
Video ..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4vI_MDVYzY
Search page link, multiple sources.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=The+West+Should+Welcome+Gaza+Refugees#ip=1
Rumblin', bumblin', stumblin' Genocide Joe is all in.
Posted by: bubbles | Nov 18 2023 22:49 utc | 61
"....Israel has succeeded in uniting all Muslims against it. That won't necessarily lead to a grand military coalition against Israel; most of the significant Arab states can't face Israel militarily. It'll happen otherwise...." laguerre@45
Another point, which I will add though it is notorious, is that most of the well armed Arab states are armed by the US and its allies. And some of them-Saudi Arabia for example-depend upon British and American (and other ) technical assistance from contractors.
In essence the Saudis have an enormous arsenal which they pay for in cold hard cash but which they can only employ with foreign, imperial permission. This is also close to the csase with Egypt whose army, as we know, is very close to the US. As is Jordan's, traditionally as British as Camberley and Sandhurst could make it- the modern Arab Legion without Glubb Pasha.
The same sort of patttern can be discerned in, for example, the powerful Pakistani military and, probably, the Indonesians too.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 18 2023 23:18 utc | 62
The Washington Post has published an opinion piece by Joe Biden titled:
US won’t back down from the challenge of Putin and Hamas
I can't read it in WaPo, so here are some bits from TASS and Israel National News Arutz Sheva.
WASHINGTON, November 19. /TASS/. The policy being pursued by Washington in Ukraine and the Middle East would bring progress and make the United States more secure, US President Joe Biden said in his article for The Washington Post.
According to Biden, against the backdrop of "so much violence and suffering - in Ukraine, Israel, [the] Gaza [Strip] and so many other places - it can be difficult to imagine that something different is possible." "We must never forget the lesson learned time and again throughout our history: Out of great tragedy and upheaval, enormous progress can come," he maintained.
Biden expects the US policy to bring "more hope, more freedom, less rage, less grievance, less war." "That is the strategy that my administration will continue to lead — in the Middle East, Europe and around the globe. Every step we take toward that future is progress that makes the world safer and the United States of America more secure," he emphasized.
"As long as Hamas clings to its ideology of destruction, a cease-fire is not peace. To Hamas’s members, every cease-fire is time they exploit to rebuild their stockpile of rockets, reposition fighters and restart the killing by attacking innocents again," he said in an article for The Washington Post. According to the US leader, "an outcome that leaves Hamas in control of Gaza would once more perpetuate its hate and deny Palestinian civilians the chance to build something better for themselves.".
Israel News:
US President Joe Biden has promised that the US will not back down "from the challenge of Putin and Hamas."
"Today, the world faces an inflection point, where the choices we make — including in the crises in Europe and the Middle East — will determine the direction of our future for generations to come."
Comparing the Russian President to the Hamas terror group, he noted, "Both Putin and Hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map. ... America cannot, and will not, let that happen. For our own national security interests — and for the good of the entire world."
In his opinion, the US plays an essential role, supporting its allies in their quest for "a brighter, more peaceful future."
"The world looks to us to solve the problems of our time. That is the duty of leadership, and America will lead," he stressed.
We stand firmly with the Israeli people as they defend themselves against the murderous nihilism of Hamas."
Acknowledging that Hamas "promised that it will relentlessly try to repeat Oct. 7. It has said very clearly that it will not stop," Biden also said that, "The Palestinian people deserve a state of their own and a future free from Hamas."
"Our goal should not be simply to stop the war for today — it should be to end the war forever," he stressed, though he insisted that a two state solution is the "only" way to ensure peace and security for Israelis and "Palestinian" people.
In his vision, Gaza "must never again be used as a platform for terrorism," but it should be ruled "under a single governance structure, ultimately under a revitalized Palestinian Authority, as we all work toward a two-state solution."
Posted by: JB | Nov 18 2023 23:19 utc | 63
Saudi Arabia's foreign minister announced the start of a ministerial diplomatic tour charged with advocating for an Israeli ceasefire in the Gaza Strip.
"The first stop will be in China and then we will move to a number of capitals to deliver the clear message that there must be a ceasefire immediately... and humanitarian needs must be immediately delivered to Gaza and we must work to end... this war on Gaza as soon as possible," Minister Faisal bin Farhan said.
middleeasteye.net/
Posted by: JB | Nov 18 2023 23:33 utc | 64
Dear Joe Biden
You are not of God and there is no truth in you.
Posted by: DuchessAndBob | Nov 18 2023 23:33 utc | 65
Posted by: JB | Nov 18 2023 23:19 utc | 60
All the MSM now are trying to throw Satanyahoo under the bus.
And Biden talking "peace" ....but without Hamas. It's all BS. Just another repeat of Oslo 2.O with Gaza completely destroyed.
They are trying to get away from war crimes and genocide charges.
Huge massacre tonight in Central Gaza. 3 journalists killed. Doctors killed. So many kids with amputations and horrid burns.
And there are NO HOSPITALS FUNCTIONING. Injured are just dying slowly. Israel has completely WRECKED all the hospitals and the equipment.
Just horrifying scenes on Al Jazeera https://youtu.be/aBYVz3PHzwA?feature=shared
The last few seconds, just bodies lying there.
It's like living in a horror movie.
Posted by: Pq | Nov 18 2023 23:56 utc | 66
Thank You to b and to all who take time and make effort providing information and links. You have enabled me to know what is true and what isn't regarding the situation in Palestine the past 40 some days and nights.
Little girl gaza - slow writhing in delirium of indescribable pain on the hospital floor in the filth and the blood and chaos, her leg bone protruding from her, and helpless adults prevented the means to come to her aid - knowing this evil was premeditated - and knowing my money paid to make that happen to her - she looks like my grandaughter - she looks so much like my precious grandaughter - she is my constant companion now - she lives in the back of my head - i carry her everywhere day and night - DunGroanin I thank you for giving me her - so that my tears will not be dried.
I have only my tears to give.
And my curses upon every last vile israeli zionist jew and upon every filthy rotten member of the zionist infested usa gov.
God bless Hamas and Yemen. Free Palestine.
Posted by: DuchessAndBob | Nov 19 2023 0:11 utc | 67
@ Posted by: Aleph_Null | Nov 18 2023 20:17 utc | 43
"Most, many, or some hurt people hurt people."
I hear you. Aleph_Null & Agree 100%. I write and post too quickly sometimes, often.
Only to realise at a later reading of my hastiness. Apologies for the inadvertent generalisation.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 19 2023 0:13 utc | 68
Posted by: JB | Nov 18 2023 23:19 utc | 60
OpEd | Joe Biden: The U.S. won’t back down from the challenge of Putin and Hamas, 18 Nov
I promise you: He didn't write it. He didn't even dictate it. It's possible that a person, ahem, familiar with the matter read it aloud in his presence, and this stimulus triggered either a passive or aggressive nonverbal response believed to signify either approval or disapproval, respectively, of publication from him.
Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 19 2023 0:19 utc | 69
@ DunGroanin | Nov 19 2023 0:13 utc | 64
Words are like that, chum: always accidentally coloring outside the lines. Yours is a respected handle in my catalog, anyhow, and this seems to be a pretty good thread, so far. Maybe I'll save the lyrics to my current earworm (God's Song by Randy Newman), and get serious.
I'm seriously haunted by a column Hedges wrote a few days back, called The War According to Hamas. He summarizes the resistance philosophy of Palestinian fighter Basel al-Araj:
Al-Araj argued that the fight with Israel cannot be measured with body counts. The Israelis will be able to kill far greater numbers of Palestinians. Resistant movements, he wrote, always suffer disproportionate losses. In the independence war in Algeria, between 1954 and 1962, upwards of 1.5 million Algerians — or around 10 percent of the population — were killed by the French. In the airport in Algiers, the country’s capital, is a huge sign that reads: “Welcome to Algeria. Land of a million Martyrs.”
“We are far more capable of bearing the costs, so there is no need to compare or be alarmed by the magnitude of the numbers,” he wrote.
https://scheerpost.com/2023/11/12/chris-hedges-the-war-according-to-hamas/
Egads! As we commence the next phase of history, there may be hope of usurping regnant insanity, at some point; even Ritter says IDF will have a terrible time on the urban rubblefield in Gaza. But so many have to die; how come so many have to die so horribly? As a US American taxpayer, I'm already up to my elbows in Palestinian blood, and you ain't seen nothin' yet.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Nov 19 2023 0:47 utc | 70
Posted by: ld | Nov 18 2023 15:02 utc | 16
I have posted your great poem to Gab and X as a screenshot of your posting here. Thanks.
Posted by: DjangoCat | Nov 19 2023 1:17 utc | 71
Milei is very pro-Zionist and anti-China. Election is tomorrow. Whats his mchances? no idea
Posted by: nomfbes | Nov 19 2023 1:26 utc | 72
fyi
from Caitaln Johnstone today. see below
then she goes through each one of the 15 in a thread and presents a bit more commentary & evidence
And there's also her article over at her website in Australia
personally, if I were to make an estimate, I would say the the israeli armed forces are now killing at least 100-150 innocent civilian Palestinians for every member of the IDF that's been killed in action in Gaza itself, though because they hide the real casualty numbers it's a bit hard to tell.
that' what I call zionist proportionality.
I haven't seen any figures on the number of dead Hamas fighters.
https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1725853426268164230
Fifteen things you should never have to say to a country:
1. Stop bombing children.
2. Don't kill journalists.
3. Don't bomb hospitals.
4. Don't shoot patients through their hospital window.
5. Don't drive bulldozers over dead bodies.
6. Don't bomb ambulances.
7. Don't do ethnic cleansing.
8. Don't call humans animals.
9. Don't starve people.
10. Don't cut off people's water.
11. Don't cut off the electricity at hospitals, killing their ICU and NICU patients.
12. Don't bomb doctors.
13. Don't bomb UN staff.
14. Don't do apartheid.
15. Stop lying constantly.
Posted by: michaelj72 | Nov 19 2023 1:30 utc | 73
@ Aleph_Null | Nov 19 2023 0:47 utc | 66
along the same lines as Hedges and Basel al-Araj also see
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/to-palestine-lessons-from-overthrowing-the-french-in-algeria
or my comment here @ Lavrov's Dog | Nov 18 2023 3:05 utc | 230
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/11/one-religions-war-against-all-others.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02c8d3a30fbd200b#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef02c8d3a30fbd200b
and here Lavrov's Dog | Nov 18 2023 8:25 utc | 280
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/11/one-religions-war-against-all-others.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02c8d39f102f200c#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef02c8d39f102f200c
fwiw, summed up as "Israel is Toast"; and why I don't support a ceasefire until Hamas themselves seek one.
Even if Hamas fails in the short term eventually Israel will be brought to it's knees by the Palestinian insurgency and will ultimately collapse as a jewish/zionist state.
History proves this will be so. I hope I live to see this occur. Cheers
Posted by: Lavrov's Dog | Nov 19 2023 1:44 utc | 74
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-3062949/Video-IDF-worlds-effective-military.html
Daily mail. Brought to you by the same propagandists that have Ukraine won and putin dead 7 times over.
The readers hold the bs to account in the comments which was nice to see
Posted by: Hankster | Nov 19 2023 1:50 utc | 75
I have resigned as poetry editor of the New York Times Magazine.The Israeli state’s U.S-backed war against the people of Gaza is not a war for anyone. There is no safety in it or from it, not for Israel, not for the United States or Europe, and especially not for the many Jewish people slandered by those who claim falsely to fight in their names. Its only profit is the deadly profit of oil interests and weapon manufacturers.
The world, the future, our hearts—everything grows smaller and harder from this war. It is not only a war of missiles and land invasions. It is an ongoing war against the people of Palestine, people who have resisted throughout decades of occupation, forced dislocation, deprivation, surveillance, siege, imprisonment, and torture.
Because our status quo is self-expression, sometimes the most effective mode of protest for artists is to refuse.
I can’t write about poetry amidst the ‘reasonable’ tones of those who aim to acclimatize us to this unreasonable suffering. No more ghoulish euphemisms. No more verbally sanitized hellscapes. No more warmongering lies.
If this resignation leaves a hole in the news the size of poetry, then that is the true shape of the present.
—Anne Boyer
Posted by: suzan | Nov 19 2023 2:27 utc | 76
Washington Post reporting tentative agreement for 5 day pause in fighting.
Posted by: jayc | Nov 19 2023 2:33 utc | 77
So, the IDF creates a grand lie about the Hamas headquarters under Al Shifa hospital ... Then proceeds to turn all Shifa into an israeli military headquarters?
You can't make this shit up.
Of course this means Al Shifa becomes a legitimate military target under 'international law' and Hamas is free to bomb it.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 19 2023 2:47 utc | 78
Gaza has been called a Zionist Concentration Camp.
But that is wrong.
It is not a Zionist Concentration Camp.
It is a Zionist Death Camp.
Posted by: anon | Nov 19 2023 3:00 utc | 79
The extent of Israel's psychopathic tantrum has been so extreme that political pressure in USA is changing the calculus (i.e. unconditional support):
Sanders issued a statement calling for conditioning U.S. aid to Israel, including by ending what he called “indiscriminate bombing” to allow a “significant pause in military operations” so humanitarian aid could enter Gaza; allowing displaced Gazans to return home; no long-term Israeli re-occupation or blockade of Gaza; an end to settler violence and expansion in the West Bank; and a “commitment to broad peace talks for a two-state solution.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/18/democrats-in-senate-house-discuss-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel-00127930
If the "5 day pause" actually happens, it is difficult to imagine that Israel's military operation will proceed at its conclusion. The level of violence has been so extreme and has targeted international organizations to such a degree that its continuation is untenable. It's not clear that Israel has even been "fighting" Hamas at all - just razing hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. It is very conceivable that the Netanyahu government will be replaced during the 5 day pause, if it occurs.
Posted by: jayc | Nov 19 2023 3:17 utc | 80
Sanders issued a statement calling for conditioning U.S. aid to Israel, including by ending what he called “indiscriminate bombing” to allow a “significant pause in military operations”
Posted by: jayc | Nov 19 2023 3:17 utc | 76
Sanders, the controlled opposition sellout should be calling for a full blockade of isreal and accountability of it's leaders under 'international law' at the Hague.
He is just a burnt out old fart trying to stay relevant.
Nobody who matters in the American regime machine cares what he says.
Not even other Jews cares what that old Jew says.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 19 2023 3:23 utc | 81
Posted by: jayc | Nov 19 2023 2:33 utc | 73
All lies.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 19 2023 3:25 utc | 82
History proves this will be so. I hope I live to see this occur. Cheers
Posted by: Lavrov's Dog | Nov 19 2023 1:44 utc | 70\
Your whole life spent hoping for something that will not happen. Put your hope in something better.
Posted by: Lavrov's Cat | Nov 19 2023 3:29 utc | 83
P/I and everything else the Merican media focuses on on is a distraction from this...
The leaders of the Censorship Industrial Complex insist they didn't break the law, but they did. They worked on behalf of the government, demanded mass censorship, and interfered in an election. In this video, I explain how they almost got away with it. Michael Shellenberger on Renée DiResta
----
And they wont stop...
https://twitter.com/shellenberger/statu ... 1119067611
https://twitter.com/shellenberger/status/1723493811119067611
Who is Renée DiResta!??
and this..
Bret and Heather 199th DarkHorse Podcast Livestream: Surgical Totalitarianism
https://odysee.com/@BretWeinstein:f/bret-and-heather-199th-darkhorse-podcast:8
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 19 2023 3:41 utc | 84
Arch Bungle 77-78
I understand your cynicism.
Reading between the lines, the Politico article isn't about Sanders, its about the various pressures developing over this past week, affecting US foreign policy and domestic politics. These pressures influenced the "5 day pause", if it does occur.
Posted by: jayc | Nov 19 2023 3:46 utc | 85
It's a good article by Ritter as per @ pq | Nov 18 2023 21:39 utc | 53
https://www.scottritterextra.com/p/the-october-7-hamas-assault-on-israel
Hamas defeated those Israeli soldiers stationed along the barrier wall in a stand-up fight. Two battalions of the Golani Brigade were routed, as were elements of other vaunted IDF units.Hamas struck the Headquarters of the Gaza Division, the local intelligence hub, and other major command and control facilities with brutal precision, turning what should have been a five-minute response time into many hours—more than enough time for Hamas to carry out one of its primary objectives—the taking of hostages. This they did with extreme proficiency, returning to Gaza with more than 230 Israeli soldiers and civilians.
The Marine Corps defines a raid as “an operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy his installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission.”
This is precisely what Hamas did on October 7.
What were the objectives of this raid? According to Hamas, the purpose behind the October 7 raid were threefold.
First, to reassert the right of the Palestinian people to a homeland not defined by the Abaraham Accords.
Second, to release the more than 10,000 Palestinians held prisoner by Israel, most without having been charged with a crime, and none with any notion of due process.
Third, to return the sanctity of the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, Islam’s third holiest place, which had been desecrated repeatedly by Israeli security forces over the past years.
and concluding quote:
It goes without saying that the Hamas raid of October 7 unleashed a firestorm of brutal recrimination in the form of bombs, shells, and bullets on the civilian population of Gaza. These are people who, for nearly eight decades, have been denied a homeland of their own by the Israelis, who violently evicted the Palestinians from the land currently called Israel in one of the greatest acts of ethnic cleansing in modern history—the Nakba, or catastrophe, of 1948.These are people who have suffered untold deprivation at the hand of their Israeli occupiers while awaiting the moment they will see their dream of a Palestinian homeland come true. They know that a Palestinian homeland cannot be realized so long as Israel is governed by those who embrace the notion of a Greater (Eretz) Israel, and that the only way to remove such people is by defeating them politically, and the only way to trigger their political defeat is to defeat them militarily.
Hamas is accomplishing this.
But there is a price to pay—a heavy price. The French lost 20,000 civilians killed to achieve the liberation of Normandy in the Summer of 1944.
So far, the Palestinian civilians of Gaza have lost 12,000 civilians killed in the effort led by Hamas to militarily defeat their Israeli occupiers.
That price will go higher in the days and weeks to come.
But it is a price that must be paid if there is to be any chance of a Palestinian homeland.
The sacrifice of the Palestinian people has compelled an Arab and Islamic world which, with few exceptions, has been mute over the depravations carried out by Israel against the Palestinian people. Who did nothing as the cause of Palestinian statehood was mooted by the Abraham Accords.
Only because of the suffering of the Palestinian people is anyone paying attention to the cause of Palestinian statehood today.
Or the welfare of the Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.
Or the sanctity of the Al Aqsa Mosque.
These were all stated objectives of Hamas in launching their attack of October 7.
And all objectives are being accomplished as we speak.
Only because of the actions of Hamas and the sacrifices of the Palestinian people.
Which makes the October 7 assault on Israel by Hamas the most successful military raid of this century.
You can't extinguish an committed insurgency with aircraft carriers. Only Justice will achieve the end of people fighting for their freedom and their lives.
Posted by: Lavrov's Dog | Nov 19 2023 3:53 utc | 86
Details on the potential pause from ZH
Under the terms of a six-page agreement;All parties would freeze combat operations for at least five days.
During this period, an initial 50 or more hostages would be released in batches every 24 hours.
It is unknown how many of what is believed to be 239 hostages will be released.
The halt is also intended to allow humanitarian assistance to flood in, including fuel, which would arrive from Egypt.
According to the report, an outline of the deal was created during several weeks of talks in Doha, Quatar - where Israel, the USA and Hamas - indirectly represented by Qatari mediators, hashed out the logistics. Until now, it was unclear if Israel would agree to it."We are not going to comment," said a spokesperson for the Israeli embassy in Washington late Saturday.
Concern about the captives — two of whom Israel said were found dead — along with the rising number of Palestinian civilian casualties have steadily increased pressure on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government. More than 100 countries — but, notably, not the United States — have called for a full and immediate cease-fire.The decision to accept the deal is difficult for Israel, said one person familiar with the situation who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive negotiations. While there is strong domestic pressure on Netanyahu to bring the hostages home, there are also loud voices in Israel demanding that the government not barter for their release. -WaPo
On Friday, Israeli National Security Council head Tzachi Haegbi told the press that a decision had been made by the war cabinet to agree to a limited ceasefire only after "a massive release of our hostages … and it will be limited and short, because after that we will continue to work towards achieving our war goals."
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 19 2023 4:28 utc | 87
psychohistorian 82
The bronze agers who have long been extinct have been re-created and given a jurassic Park playground .
Now entering the monitoring and control station.
Posted by: Giyane | Nov 19 2023 4:41 utc | 88
Lavrov's Cat | Nov 19 2023 3:29 utc | 79
No "hope" is coming from me, that angle ain't required to KNOW that Israel is toast. Live with it (you only need to give up one of your lives, right?).
BTW - Bad systems fail. That is why Israel is toast. Built on a bad premise. Too much energy to hold up a bad system. Entropy doesn't sleep.
Posted by: Seer | Nov 19 2023 4:41 utc | 89
All parties would freeze combat operations for at least five days.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 19 2023 4:28 utc | 82
The jews will not cease firing for 1 hour.
And if they ceasefire they will probably fill the time with:
Bludgeoning patients to death in their hospital beds,
Or blowing up suspected tunnels,
Or mining civilian infrastructure for demolition after the ceasefire,
Or strangulation of other necessities not covered under the terms.
We know them well, they lie out of necessity, not out of choice.
If Hamas gives up any hostages all that will happen is the hostages go free and they gain not even that minor leverage.
The objective of the occupiers still remains : annihilation of the Palestinians and their resistance.
Posted by: [email protected] | Nov 19 2023 5:11 utc | 90
If this resignation leaves a hole in the news the size of poetry, then that is the true shape of the present.
—Anne Boyer
Posted by: suzan | Nov 19 2023 2:27 utc | 72
I entered this in a google search for more info;
'poetry editor of the New York Times Magazine resigns'
The first item in the results contained this message;
"Anne Boyer drew widespread mockery on social media following her announcement that she was resigning as poetry editor of The New York Times Magazine. “If this resignation leaves a hole in the news the size of poetry, then that is the true shape of the present,” Boyer, a Pulitzer Prize winner, wrote on Substack"
I had never heard of the source, 'JNS.org' so I looked it up and clearly it's not a site that would receive the most hits and earn top of the page status.
duckduckgo doesn't push that site or the obvious intent.
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=+poetry+editor+of+the+New+York+Times+Magazine+resigns&ia=web
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!" (Sir Walter Scott, 1808)
Posted by: bubbles | Nov 19 2023 5:14 utc | 91
Put your hope in something better.
Posted by: Lavrov's Cat | Nov 19 2023 3:29 utc | 79
Like Eretz isreal, perhaps?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 19 2023 5:28 utc | 92
Scott Ritter yesterday:
Everything that Israel is doing is a war crimeYou see yes under International humanitarian law (the Geneva Conventions during war time etc) there are conditions in which a civilian object such as a hospital can be converted into a military object and amongst those are uh if an hostile force is using it as a command and control point to um to Barracks troops to store ammunition things of this nature um
but in the Law of War there's also the criteria called distinction meaning that you in order to make a distinction between Civilian and Military you have to have proof. You don't get to attack a hospital then go on a fishing expedition to look for proof.
That's not how the law of War works. You have to have absolute proof or otherwise the object must be treated as an exclusively civilian object protected under International humanitarian law.
As we see right now Israel doesn't have proof - they're desperately searching for something that can back up the extraordinary claims they made about Al Shifa hospital - "it's big huge command and control underneath there bunkers everywhere guns and the whole thing" - where is it Israel? Where is it?
The fact that you're looking for it means you didn't know for certain it was there You're guessing and therefore you're guilty of murder mass murder, a war crime. Every Israeli officer every Israeli Civilian Authority associated with the attack on this hospital is guilty of a war crime and should be prosecuted as such
This isn't an accident, this isn't a mistake, the law of war is clear and Israel has violated it 100%. People need to get angry, people need to start getting angry. I'm tired of people going well "we're just gonna have a civil civil discussion"
Imagine your child dead right now in the hospital imagine your mother going in for surgery and dying in the recovery room because she can't get the medical care she needs.
It's time for everybody to get angry Israel no longer gets a pass this isn't about antisemitism I'm not anti-Semitic this is about calling out a regime, the Netanyahu (extremist Zionist) regime as a war criminal regime and they must be recognized as such and treated as such.
And I'm telling every Israeli pilot right now, we may not know your names because you're protected by the Israeli defense establishment, but we know the date you dropped your bombs and one day Justice will come to you because the records are clear you climbed into a cockpit and you received an order and you executed that order and you are responsible for the due diligence of the Target that you're striking you are responsible and if you know that you're carrying out an act of violence as part of the mass the indiscriminate bombing the collective punishment of the Palestinian people you have committed a war crime by definition and you will be found out and you will be held guilty.
Just like every Israeli officer on the ground in Gaza right now Hey you Battalion commanders if you have snipers under your command and they're in school shooting children they're guilty, you're guilty - they're all guilty and it's time we call them out for what they are
War Criminals one and all.
All Lost, Total Failure Achieved 1 hr w Dialogue works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVCSXYcGs78
Posted by: Lavrov's Dog | Nov 19 2023 6:08 utc | 93
IDF wants out - the last few days have been brutal for those conscripts; getting ambushed by ‘ghosts’
Posted by: Exile | Nov 19 2023 6:33 utc | 94
Sln2002 on Biden: the piece was read to him as a picture of him and Epstein plus young friends was let on the table. It includes the key phrase "we stand with Azrael" that has also been appearing in all sort of petitions in universities and letters from jewish communities here and there as ways of pressure.
It is simply disgusting and entirely denying the existence of the people opposing Netanyahu and his millenarist allies.
Posted by: Minaa | Nov 19 2023 7:02 utc | 95
I always read about this "concern about captives", you know the israelis and others taken cative on Oct 7, but never any concern or caring about the 1000s upon thousands of Palestinian prisoners who are being held without charge in the West Bank etc, and the many more thousands who are rounded up, beaten, abused, tortured and then released year after year
why is that?
there's no ceasefire deal yet and I haven't read anything in it about any Palestinians prisoners, but it would have to be in there somewhere, I am guessing
Posted by: michaelj72 | Nov 19 2023 7:12 utc | 96
The planet seems to be having an absurdus delirium of some kind, no?
This article by "j.b., WaPo reader" instead of an interview or an address to the nation? Unheard of.
Posted by: Minaa | Nov 19 2023 7:32 utc | 97
Overbooking is a common strategy in US business, to increase profits.
Overbooking is when an airline reserves more seats than available, hoping not everybody will not show up to board the flight.
In a similar way, the US military has overbooked. The US has extended guarantees to more countries than the US military can defend at the same time, hoping not all adversaries will attack at the same time. That strategy might work, if your adversaries do not work together.
Posted by: Passervy | Nov 19 2023 7:34 utc | 98
Jalal #CeasefireNow
@JalalAK_jojo
Addressing the US Representative at @UNGeneva
State of Palestine Representative Nada Abu Tarbush: "No, you do not get to say you stand with Palestinian civilians until you stop sending arms to Israel as it commits genocide."
https://twitter.com/JalalAK_jojo/status/1725950281161068966
Posted by: Menz | Nov 19 2023 7:50 utc | 99
asad abukhalil أسعد أبو خليل
@asadabukhalil
·
Reprimands? If only reprimands were around in the 1930s; they would have stopped Hitler and the Nazis:
“Biden orders top aides to prepare reprimands for violent Israeli settlers in West Bank”
https://twitter.com/asadabukhalil/status/1726072414814318594
Posted by: Menz | Nov 19 2023 7:57 utc | 100
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