Another Interview With Dominique De Villepin On The Conflict In Palestine (As Translated By Arnaud Bertrand)
On October 28 I posted (with the author's permission):
An Interview On Gaza With Dominique De Villepin (As Translated By Arnaud Bertrand).
There is a new interview with Dominique De Villepin which has also been translated by Arnaud Bertrand.
Arnaud Bertrand @RnaudBertrand - 1:22 UTC · Nov 8, 2023Another masterful interview on Gaza of Dominique De Villepin, former Prime Minister of France, who IMHO is the best diplomat the West has produced in decades.
Again I believe that his words are so important and so rare among Western leaders today, that I decided to translate it in full (the bold parts are emphasis Villepin himself made when speaking):
One does not have to agree with De Villepin. But one has to acknowledge that he is one of the few European politicians who has put real thoughts into the issue and who points to a potentially sensible end:
What follows is Arnaud Bertrand's translation:
--- Begin of translation ---
"The Israeli government, Benjamin Netanyahu, failed on October 7th and failed doubly. Firstly, in its ability to ensure the protection of the Israeli people by allowing massacres that are an abomination to occur. He bears direct responsibility for what happened. And his second failure is having encouraged a policy of occupation and colonization, which continues at this moment in the West Bank and constitutes another threat to Israel if a second front in the West Bank were to open.
"The Israeli government, Benjamin Netanyahu, failed on October 7th and failed doubly. Firstly, in its ability to ensure the protection of the Israeli people by allowing massacres that are an abomination to occur. He bears direct responsibility for what happened. And his second failure is having encouraged a policy of occupation and colonization, which continues at this moment in the West Bank and constitutes another threat to Israel if a second front in the West Bank were to open.
Force does not ensure the security of a people! This is what all Israelis must understand today. And what is important is that since October 7th, the Israeli government's choice has been to escalate the use of force. You know, neither force nor vengeance ensures peace and security. What ensures peace and security is justice! And justice is not being served today.
The rationale of the Israeli government for the bombings happening today is flawed, and the whole international community can see it. The principle is: "we target terrorists, and unfortunately, there are also civilian populations," what is euphemistically called in military language "collateral damage." It must be understood that this collateral damage is not accidental. That is to say, it is perfectly predictable and fully accepted.
[Host: "But once again, the responsibility is not solely Israeli."]
But once more, let's stop asking about responsibility; let's look at the reality of what's happening on the ground! Assigning fault, allow me to tell you, we will leave to historians. What we want is to stop this violence, to stop these massacres. Israel is putting itself in danger, even more today, with this type of warfare and these types of strikes.
We are essentially dealing with a policy of vengeance from the Netanyahu government. Israel has the right to self-defense, but self-defense does not give an indiscriminate right to kill civilian populations. When you target an ambulance, you can always imagine that there was a terrorist in one of the ambulances, or not. But the result is that there are children, women who die. Every child, every woman killed, that's more terrorists. Therefore, Israel's objective, what Israel achieves, is exactly the opposite of what they wish. So, it is essential today to change this logic and return to a strategy that is sound.
Hostages, everything must be done to secure their release. But let's not forget: the Palestinian people are also taken hostage, by Hamas and by Israel. And Hamas, we all know, cares little for the Palestinian people. So telling Hamas: "we will not lift the siege, we will not have a humanitarian truce until the hostages are released," is a dialogue of the deaf.
Benjamin Netanyahu is waging a war to do everything so that the political solution does not come to the table. And this is where the international community, Europe, the United States, must tell Benjamin Netanyahu that this war is not acceptable. It is not acceptable because it leads us directly [to escalation] - because we can see it well, from Hamas we will move to Iran, from Iran we will move to other targets, and we then enter into the logic of a clash of civilizations. When Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu says that on one side there is the people of light and on the other the people of darkness, we can see the kind of spiral we are getting into.
All the wars that have been going on for the past twenty years are wars that begin and do not end. These are frozen conflicts. We know how to start a war; we do not know how to end it. And Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu could control Gaza, it would change nothing. There will continue to be terrorist attacks, Israelis will continue to live in fear. We must get out of this. The second reason why this is yesterday's war is that the war against terrorism has never been won anywhere. Force is not the answer, once again. Vengeance is not the answer. The answer is justice, and that is what all the peoples of the world, all those who today watch what is happening, call for justice.
Today the direction we must follow is to prevent Benjamin Netanyahu from continuing his suicidal logic that will make Israel a besieged state. They can besiege Gaza, but they will be besieged. And do not think that tomorrow we will again have a pacified discourse with Saudi Arabia, with the Arab states that will normalize the situation: no! The wounds of history are awakening.
Israel's interest is to have a responsible state at its side. And this responsible state, let's stop splitting hairs, must clearly be the West Bank, all of the West Bank. It must be Gaza, with access between the two territories, and East Jerusalem. The problem, and this is the whole point of Benjamin Netanyahu's escalation, is that Benjamin Netanyahu does not want it. And the policy of separation must be dignified. That is, it must confer to the Palestinians a state where they can live, a viable state, a true state, which can build itself and which will be all the more at peace...
[Host: "Does that mean that the settlements in the West Bank have to be removed?"]
Well, when we left Algeria, there were a million French who left Algeria. Today there are 500,000 Israelis colonizing the West Bank, and there are 200,000 in East Jerusalem.
[Host: "They must leave the West Bank?"]
Yes. Yes, that is history, that is responsibility, that is the price! I tell you solemnly, it is the price of security for Israel! And all those who today consider that it will never be enough are pursuing the worst policy."
--- End of translation ---
Bertrand adds:
Credit to @caissesdegreve who took these extracts from the original interview which can be found here: Conflit Israël-Hamas : la riposte israélienne n'est "ni ciblée ni proportionnée"
Posted by b on November 8, 2023 at 9:22 UTC | Permalink
next page »Great interview !
The Likud‘s 50+ year strategy of creating-facts-on-the-ground has neither provided peace nor security for Israeli‘s. The Likud wants to double down on failure. Wise Israeli‘s warned about this.
The best hope for a secure and lasting peace for the Jewish state is for Tel Aviv to accept UNR 181 and the borders described therein. These borders are the sole internationally recognized borders of the Jewish State. Everything else is a temp. Ceasefire line.
The alternative to UNR 181 is not pretty. The constellation of forces no longer favors the IDF.
For example - 2 more IDF main battle tanks knocked out Wednesday am local time - brings the total to 67 IDF MBTs knocked out.
Posted by: Exile | Nov 8 2023 9:39 utc | 1
https://t.me/Middle_East_Spectator/3357
This says 113 tanks and bulldozers etc destroyed disabled. So I guess pick the numbers you want.
Posted by: Hankster | Nov 8 2023 9:44 utc | 2
Zionists have always been stymied by the unassailable fact that the land they want is occupied by more non-Zionists than Zionists. Always. Whether that's 1948 or 1967 or now.
Yes, it is understandable that Zionists want a homeland. Yes, it is understandable that Zionists want access to their sacred sites. Yes, Jews got treated horrifically during WW2 and the Dreyfuss affair, pogroms, et al.
But... but, but, but... these wants by Zionists always had to come at the expense of someone else (Palestinians, Druze, Bedouin, et al). And sooner or later, that expense will have to be repaid. It's just a matter of when.
Israel, as in the modern nation with the blue and white flag (not Biblical in the slightest), is just a temporary aberration, the same as Rhodesia and the Belgian Congo and Japanese Manchuria before it.
Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Nov 8 2023 9:46 utc | 3
A lot of good points from Dominique De Villepin. My biggest disagreement is that he makes Benjamin Netanyahu the big villain on the Israeli side. It's the entire political culture/system in Israel that is the problem. You will have a lot more Israeli politicians sharing Netanyahu's view of a final solution to the Palestinian problem than there will be opposing him. Replace Netanyahu and you end up with someone similar. You can't really change Israel's policies unless the US enter with pressure.
Which is the second problem. I just don't see the US going against Israeli interest. The US's stalwart support for Israel is well entrenched in present US politics. What such make them change their policy?
Posted by: Poul | Nov 8 2023 9:51 utc | 4
The only hope for peace in Palestine is the dispatch of the zionist occupation round the u-bend of history to join the Smith regime and Boer South Africa.
Posted by: Squeeth | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
I'm not buying it. His only interest is the survival of the jews and the ongoing existance of Israel.
Rather than the Jews leaving the west bank and east Jerusalem, as per the million french who left Algeria, about 7 million Jews need to leave / be forcibly deported from Palestine and the 9 million Palestinian refugee of the Nakba allowed to return home from all over the world and the neighbouring states.
Only that would be the beginning of real Justice.
Dominique De Villepin has no interest in Justice he seeks convenience and the erasure of western guilt.
The Palestinians have still had their land stolen and been living under Tyranny since the 1920s when the Britsih showed up to impose their Mandate and control over them.
Posted by: Lavrov's Dog | Nov 8 2023 9:59 utc | 6
The UN says Israel has no right of self defense, as a occupying power. Security yes. You can blame Israel for thier security by it's slow burn genocidal of the Palestine people, ignoring their OWN humanity. .
Posted by: Col from OZ | Nov 8 2023 10:02 utc | 7
Dominique De Villepin is absolutely correct that Netanyahu is deliberately embarking on a campaign of vengeance rather than a campaign of "self defence"
It is entirely predictable that he would do so, and if it were PM Bennet or PM Lapid then they would do exactly the same.
ANY Zionist pretender to the throne would do exactly the same, because they wouldn't be Zionists if they didn't.
So you may as well expect a leopard to change its spots. Not. Gonna. Happen.
What is unconscionable is that Biden and all his excerable neocon handlers are rushing to line up in solidarity with this genocide.
I.... honestly, that the likes of Blinken or Austin can sleep at night knowing that they are complicit in this is a mystery to me.
Netanyahu? Sure, but he's a psychopath. He probably get a stiffy just thinking about all the dead Palestinians.
Biden? The dude nods off in cabinet meetings. He's the ultimate empty suit. Elder abuse writ large.
Lindsey Graham? A pervert, plain to anyone with eyes in their head.
But what about the rest? Do they have NO humanity in them? None at all?
Apparently not.
Let them all rot in Hell, because if it exists then they are surely destined for that one-way trip.
Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 8 2023 10:06 utc | 8
Posted by: Tesla | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
It's different way of fighting. Israel don't care about civilian casualty since they have already stated that it's just animals there.
So they flatten the place completely then move in their armoured bulldozers to set off mines and IEDs. Then their tanks move in.
But don't assume they have no casualties. You need to read other sites that shows real attacks by the Palestinian fighters.
Posted by: Surferket | Nov 8 2023 10:29 utc | 9
Tesla | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
"Seems like Netanyahoo has learned from the Ukraine theater that pussy cat Slomo doesnt bring anything"
Putin and Russia see the Ukrainians as their brothers led astray, not as sub-human untermenschen who can be slaughtered en masse. That's the big difference.
Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Nov 8 2023 10:34 utc | 10
Vladimir Putin
“There is no justification for the terrible events taking place in Gaza now, where hundreds of thousands of innocent people are being killed indiscriminately, without having anywhere to flee or hide from the bombing. When you see blood-stained children, dead children, the suffering of women and old people, when you see medics killed, of course, it makes you clench your fists as tears well in your eyes.”
Posted by: ld | Nov 8 2023 10:35 utc | 11
"The Israeli government, Benjamin Netanyahu, failed on October 7th and failed doubly. Firstly, in its ability to ensure the protection of the Israeli people by allowing massacres"
I stopped reading right there
-Ignore the last 75 years, find the scapegoat before starting with rinse, repeat. History starts Oct 7.
-only Israelis are massacred....but forget to mention that it was most likely the IDF that killed indiscriminately.
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/what-really-happened-on-7th-october
Max Blumenthal at Grayzone also has articles, as does Ron Unz who reviewed all three (Blumenthal, Inlakesh, Mondoweiss)
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-hamas-and-israel-were-inches-deal-hostages
Posted by: pq | Nov 8 2023 10:37 utc | 12
The Israeli defence minister has said the IDF has broken through into "the heart of Gaza City" - and that the leader of Hamas in the enclave, Yahya Sinwar, is "surrounded in his bunker"
Am I imagining it, or do these words mirror the taking of Berlin, the assault of the Führerbunker?
Posted by: Passerby | Nov 8 2023 10:39 utc | 13
Tesla | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
"Seems like Netanyahoo has learned from the Ukraine theater that pussy cat Slomo doesnt bring anything"
Putin and Russia see the Ukrainians as their brothers led astray, not as sub-human untermenschen who can be slaughtered en masse. That's the big difference.
Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Nov 8 2023 10:34 utc | 11
You are 100% correct; Tesla doesn't seem to understand the Slav V Slav scenario.
Netanyahoo has failed for hamas october 7th operation
But with actual military campaign the IDF is paying back very painly.
Compared to Putins „pussying around“ tactics Netanyahoo is quite successfull with his Areal bombing
- Yesterday they ve entered the center of Gaza town
- Less KIAs compared to Putins SLOMO pussy cat campaign
Seems like Netanyahoo has learned from the Ukraine theater that pussy cat Slomo doesnt bring anything
Posted by: Tesla | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
Brilliant analysis.
Now how about the fact that the Palestinians don't have an air force, navy, tanks, artillery .... and billions of $$$$ dropped into the bank each year from the US taxpayer.
Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 8 2023 10:44 utc | 15
Netanyahoo has failed for hamas october 7th operation
But with actual military campaign the IDF is paying back very painly.
Compared to Putins „pussying around“ tactics Netanyahoo is quite successfull with his Areal bombing
- Yesterday they ve entered the center of Gaza town
- Less KIAs compared to Putins SLOMO pussy cat campaign
Seems like Netanyahoo has learned from the Ukraine theater that pussy cat Slomo doesnt bring anything
Posted by: Tesla | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
This was the easy part, carpet bombing with total air control, obtaining just a lot of civilian casualties.
Now they have to go for urban/tunnel fighting and IDF is continuously delaying it, ask yourself why.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 10:49 utc | 16
De Villepin is very 'diplomatic' when he tries to open a door for change by blaming Netanyahu specifically.
But noone will step through that door. Who would that even be? Yair Lapid, Ben-Gvir, Smotrich? The rest of the Lukudnik? All of these are violent ghouls that positioned themselves unmistakably on the side of "Hamas (thus Palestine) has to go". I any other Western country they would be described as right-wing extremists. The Muricans are the only one who have enough leverage to do something, but who is that supposed to be? The Biden Admin? Trump? All of them and most of the second and third row in the Democrat and Republican parties are comically pro-israel. And in Israel at least it's not just the establishment, a very large part of ordinary people is already on the side of "the Palestinians must go", a hooray for ethnic cleansing.
So Villepin basically should have said that everything looks like Israel already is or is quickly to become a pariah state. It's good that he said what he said, but there is still quite a level of obfuscation involved in his statement.
Posted by: Roland | Nov 8 2023 11:10 utc | 17
With the very first sentence I disagree with de Villipin. The Israeli government may not have planned the Hamas hostage-grab but they knew about it and used it for their own purpose, namely to justify the destruction of Gaza. Big win for Bibi
Posted by: TheNorthernChef | Nov 8 2023 11:11 utc | 18
Many thanks to Anaud Bertrand for the translation and the interview is indeed interesting. Villepin seems to be evolving but as I have stated before he is a "washed up" in French politics. Most people remember him for the re-privatisation of the toll roads and labor laws that sank his premiership. Overnight G7 including the current zombie Emmanuel Macron backed the American "humanitarian pause" idea rejecting any thought of a ceasefire. Now what is exactly a "humanitarian pause?" Norman Finkelstein described it as passing out sandwiches and bottles of water for a couple of hours before the bombing resumes. I am wondering if Brics will step up to the plate and or Russia and China. If Russia can arrange something with the Saudis for example, then the diplomatic death of the US regime will be complete.
Posted by: Stierlitz | Nov 8 2023 11:17 utc | 19
A Gordian knot of babble, the solution is to slice through it, not to tug or push at any of all the loose ends that change nothing. Time is up.
Either the zionists kill two million now and untold millions later or somebody stops them by force.
A smallish limited foray destroying the Israeli air force and most artillery could suffice.
If anyone wants to.
It could be done without claiming responsibility nor credit. Stranger things happen every day.
It has been a month. The world powers are complicit because all of them can end it in whatever way they choose except more babble which has led nowhere and is leading nowhere. Anyone not opposing it are also complicit and guilty of assisting genocide.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Nov 8 2023 11:30 utc | 20
"Either the zionists kill two million now and untold millions later or somebody stops them by force.
A smallish limited foray destroying the Israeli air force and most artillery could suffice."
Neither these 2 are possible in the real world.
The real outcome will be somewhere in the middle and with a political solution.
Noone wants a regional war (except for Bibi) neither Iran nor USA.
This will be easy to figure out in a couple of weeks. If israel does not stop. Regional war is more likely. If they stop, a political solution even will be possible.
Posted by: Comandante | Nov 8 2023 11:49 utc | 21
This is all so horrible. I am so sad. I have never had white phosphorus dropped on my home.
What do we do to solve this. Or is it a fancypants gordidian knot?
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Nov 8 2023 11:30 utc | 20
As I was typing this I saw what you typed. Indeed. Time is up. Stranger things happen. It seems so strange to hear myself typing. Sad
Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 8 2023 11:49 utc | 22
May I ask if someone can confirm that Al Arabia has stated that Hamas command center is under an hospital in Gaza.
I could not find any reference online and I've not seen any link but only bubbling about, so I suppose it could be rubbish.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 11:57 utc | 23
There is one way I can see victory for the Palestinian Resistance in Gaza:
It will require Egypt to avert it's eyes (they're good at this, so it should be right up their alley).
Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Irani and Yemeni volunteers should be allowed to infiltrate the strip via the tunnels under the Egyptian border.
They'll keep flooding in, until the IDF, any Us Marines begin to drown in a never ending stream of fighters emerging from nowhere.
If they can keep the tunnels open, and the fighters flooding in for months, the IDF will gradually attrit away ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 11:59 utc | 24
An important detail regarding the current crisis in Gaza that appears to be overlooked and has been barely mentioned IMHO, is the actions taken immediately prior to October 7th. Most commenters, the MSM and various bloggers use that day as the start date of the current conflict, insomuch as they widely use February 22nd 2022 as the start date of the Ukrainian SMO. what is rarely mentioned is that the last week of September saw an invasion of the Al Aqsa Mosque compound by a mixture of Israeli Police, armed settlers and the IDF numbering over 800, this over the following days increased to around 1500. Their aim and actions was to prevent males under 60 old (Al jazeera says under 50) from worshiping at the site. This in itself is clearly a highly provocative act, bound to inflame feelings and elicit a reciprocal response. They were again imo fully aware of what they were doing and what to expect, which sadly played right into their hands and providing a supposedly just cause for their response.
Posted by: Pyewacket | Nov 8 2023 12:04 utc | 25
New here,
Thank you for the website and thank you for all the wisdom shared here
I’ve been reading for the past week, and it’s an absolute pleasure
Great article
I agree with Paul @4 Bibi is not the only villain
The whole Israeli culture was built upon power grab, military use and entitlements. It starts with education system from a young age, from God’s chosen people to we are democracy among primitives etc.
if you go against the narrative you are expelled from the society and attacked like author and Jewish historian Ilan Papi who was threatened and attacked after going down the rabbit hole that the land was not empty.
From a cultural point of view Israeli tourists are banned from many hotels around the world due to their disrespect and attitude. So it’s not only Bibi
The amount of filth programming that goes on both sides is beyond. It takes lots of spiritual fortitude to rise above and not chose a side but chose a life. The history books on both sides are very skewed and facts are twisted. Added to that the European interest in looting the region that’s been going for thousands of years.
Every incident the west has dabbled it’s hands to radicalize and usurp a country to its own benefit, the result was always bad for the country and for the west. Same story every single time.
Posted by: Danial | Nov 8 2023 12:10 utc | 26
Id like to see those israelie drones taken out of the sky above Gaza, that would be a sign for the better.
Even if nabouring countrys are reluctent to personaly get envolved at least supply the modern military tools to Hamas to get the job done.
Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 8 2023 12:11 utc | 27
May I ask if someone can confirm that Al Arabia has stated that Hamas command center is under an hospital in Gaza.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 11:57 utc | 23
Not able to find anything from Al Arabiya.
However, international medical bodies who operate in Al Shifa Hospital have stated on Al Jazeera that they've never found any indication of military use of the hospital in their years of operation there.
It really comes down to who you believe ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 12:14 utc | 28
Pyewacket | Nov 8 2023 12:04 utc | 25
The American/Nato armada in the Med. Something like that usually takes months to organize.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 12:17 utc | 29
TASS: "Hamas to allow another 100 US nationals to leave Gaza, with no Russians being on the list (...) as well as German, Canadian, Romanian, Ukrainian and Philippine citizens"
RIA: "Palestinian Hamas movement does not prevent holders of foreign citizenship who want to leave from the Gaza Strip, but Israel and the United States are engaged in drawing up lists for leaving for Egypt, Basem Naim, head of Hamas's foreign relations department in the Gaza Strip. A diplomatic source told RIA Novosti on Tuesday that by the beginning of the evacuation of Russians, compatriots and CIS citizens from Gaza, everything is ready, but there is no Israeli consent."
Posted by: rk | Nov 8 2023 12:22 utc | 30
The French context, which V tries to appease by calling to the Fr jews' consciousness (versus N and its millenarist allies who are simply obsessed with destroying a mosque to build a jewish temple instead) is that some Moldaves have been paid to tag David stars in Paris and elsewhere (the very design make you think immediately this was not spontaneously tagged by north african kids...), plus a few murders already which also seem to have been inside jobs, plus a government that makes everything possible to provoke escalation in the suburbs.....
Posted by: Minaa | Nov 8 2023 12:23 utc | 31
I've tried twice to post links to Max Blumenthal's article on Grayzone detailing how the IDF fired on Israelis on Oct 7. And an overlooked Middle East Eye article detailing the Hamas military operation.
I posted these in response to the opening statements in the article above that seems to take for granted that
a) the massacre did not occur at IDF's hands and
b) that there exists no Palestinian right to self determination equal to that of Israel.
There are plenty of other articles too affirming holes in the Israeli narrative. Israelis know exactly what happened too, but I guess that IDF is a more immediate threat to them than Hamas so better shut up.
Posted by: Pq | Nov 8 2023 12:28 utc | 32
May I ask if someone can confirm that Al Arabia has stated that Hamas command center is under an hospital in Gaza.
... it could be rubbish.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 11:57 utc | 23
Mads Gilbert works in the University hospital less than 1K from my home. I've followed his work closely
since 2008 and trust him completely. Those claims are BS, rubbish!
Mads Gilbert (3 min.)
Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 8 2023 12:29 utc | 33
Pinning it all on Netanyahu would solve the immediate problem but not the systemic issues of Israeli politics. What’s interesting is less who might be shooting at IDF troops today than how the situation is playing out in geopolitics.
Regional states aren’t jumping in to defend Palestinians with force of arms, but the reactions US diplomats are getting is much different than the past. Blinken is on his fourth trip or something, and each time the response is worse. Western leaders are trying and failing to keep a lid on massive protests. Biden went from “exterminate the brutes” to now dropping hints that he disagrees with Bibi and even calling for a ceasefire. Senate democrats blocked the $12B Israeli funding (over ukraine but it shows that even Israel is now hostage to domestic politics). The state department is being directly asked about the US being complicit in war crimes.
And all the while, Tel Aviv has set maximalist goals it likely can’t achieve on a sustainable timeline. 8% of the working age population under arms. Higher combat losses (acknowledged) than any time since 1973. The tourist industry gone. The illusion of total security shattered. Internal political divides widening. Bibi and Biden need this over yesterday, every day beyond that that it continues is dangerous and costly.
Posted by: Lex | Nov 8 2023 12:30 utc | 34
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 12:14 utc | 28
Thank you for your kind response.
For me it's not only about who you believe, but to dig, as much as possible, into facts.
That's the only way to make 'informed' evaluation.
It seems that there is nothing that confirm the new abaut Al Arabia, but you know, keep telling that and people will start to believe it.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 12:35 utc | 35
Greyzone article
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
The IDF massacred Israeli civilians by the score. Hannibal Directive
Posted by: Exile | Nov 8 2023 12:36 utc | 36
Thanks for the post, b. I thought this was a great interview which said some very uncomfortable (for some), and normally banned, ideas. Not to be too cynical, but it matters who your neighbours are. On Nov. 7, the prime minister of Jordan said that evicting the people of Gaza would be considered a declaration of war on Jordan. Maybe they like take that kind of seriously.
It took me a while to find it (it was reported on the RT feed) but here it is:
https://x.com/PrimeMinistry/status/1721860042947760491
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Nov 8 2023 12:40 utc | 37
Palestinian Resistance Continues to Defy Zionist Invasion
To retaliate against the merciless massacres targeting civilians, the Palestinian resistance, led by the Martyr Ezz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, has once again struck a blow against the Zionist invasion of the Gaza Strip. For the 32nd day in a row, the heroic fighters have unleashed their might, destroying enemy vehicles and eliminating soldiers and officers.
According to the spokesman for the Martyr Ezz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the past few hours witnessed the destruction of 15 military vehicles on the outskirts of the Beach Camp and in Beit Hanoun. The invading forces were also bombarded with mortar shells, as fierce clashes erupted on various fronts of the fighting.
Al-Qassam Brigades also fired multiple volleys of rockets towards the greater Tel Aviv area. Videos circulating on social media captured the devastating impact of these missiles, leaving behind a trail of destruction.
In previous statements, Al-Qassam reported the obliteration of enemy concentrations breaching the Gaza Strip’s borders using powerful mortar shells.
The resistance fighters fiercely clashed with the invading occupation forces northwest of Beit Lahia, successfully annihilating a number of vehicles. The Brigades were swift to share the scenes of battle, demonstrating the valor of Al-Qassam fighters.
Not stopping there, Al-Qassam Brigades revealed their latest victories against enemy forces penetrating the northwest and south axes of Gaza City. With dozens of mortar shells, they effectively destroyed the invaders. Footage of these successful attacks was made public, showcasing the gallantry of the resistance fighters…..
….Rest of article
https://english.almanar.com.lb/1968375
Posted by: Exile | Nov 8 2023 12:42 utc | 38
keep telling that and people will start to believe it.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 12:35 utc | 36
So why keep repeating unconfirmed gossip emanating from Israel?
Out of curiosity, what has Israel said since Oct 7 that is independently verified to be true? Or a narrative that doesn't defy common sense, isn't full of holes + contradiction and details shape shifting over time?
Or even between 1896 and Oct 6, 2023?
I've thought long and hard but still can't come up with much.
Sorry if I sound harsh but disinfo, misinfo, and lying by omission are largely responsible for the carnage occurring today.
Thank you @Exile 37 for Grayzone link
Posted by: Pq | Nov 8 2023 12:47 utc | 39
What Israel gets is the expulsion of all Palestinians from Israel, a single-state, and one less internal threat to Israel's existence.
Hamas was created by Israel to first get rid of (make irrelevant) the PLO. Secondly, Israel used Hamas to bring sufficiently barbaric and horrific attacks upon Israel (that the PLO were incapable of morally), to justify genocide of the Palestinian people. Genocide or no genocide, reports coming out of Gaza indicate that the population of Palestinians has fallen from approximately 2.1 million to 900,000 since Israel invaded the Gaza Strip in response to the October 7TH attacks.
Netanyahu allowed -- allowed -- Hamas' attacks to go on for seven hours before an organized response took place, primarily to provide the greatest affect attacks upon Israel military bases, the massacre of Israel civilians and the Israeli people, the beheading of babies, and the taking of hostages, to complete the ultimate justification (morality has nothing to do with it), for a final solution to the Palestinian problem -- whether the world likes it or not. This is an internal problem.
Things are only beginning to get serious. To paraphrase Russian President Vladimir Putin: "Nobody has really started anything yet."
Posted by: the blame-e | Nov 8 2023 12:49 utc | 40
Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 8 2023 12:29 utc | 34
I'm inclined to consider most if not all what's coming from IDF, Israel as rubbish.
I was interested if claims about Al Arabia backing Israelis declarations are true.
If so, it would position Saudi Arabia in the field of the west.
Not that it would be strange.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 12:52 utc | 41
The Iranian missile launched this week at Eilat – a distance of at least 1,600 km – has broken two records: The longest-range launch of ballistic missiles from ground batteries, and the first operational interception of a ballistic missile by Israel's Arrow missile defense system.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 8 2023 12:53 utc | 42
For me it's not only about who you believe, but to dig, as much as possible, into facts.
That's the only way to make 'informed' evaluation.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 12:35 utc | 36
The facts have always been the essence of truth.
And faith has always implied absence of truth.
But we are living in an age where even evidence has no power against false faith.
We are living in an age where the evidence is being erased before our very eyes.
Entire people wished away in a minute ... Or wished into existence in a minute.
They will tell you there are tunnels beneath Al Shifa and on that basis murder a hundred babies in their incubators.
And when the war is done they will invite you to inspect they ruins, and point to the sewers they opened and the 'evidence' they hastily tossed in there and say:
"see? we told you so - HAMAS!"
After all, these Jews are experts at fabricating evidence, they fabricated an entire people!
So, regarding evidence, sometimes you just have to look at the Information Structure of Reality and understand what it will and will not permit.
Sometimes even the evidence is a lie.
Of course, in this case, the Jews offer not even that ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 12:54 utc | 43
Every incident the west has dabbled it’s hands to radicalize and usurp a country to its own benefit, the result was always bad for the country and for the west. Same story every single time.
Posted by: Danial | Nov 8 2023 12:10 utc | 26
Exactly right. You can look at any past or present 'trouble spot' in the world and practically guarantee that the British Empire was there originally, sometimes followed by the US Empire. Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Palestine, Iraq, the Chinese / Indian border, Kashmir, Sudan, to name just a few. The list goes on and on.
Posted by: Jams O'Donnell | Nov 8 2023 12:55 utc | 44
De Villepins closing assumption admits to not having a clue how to resolve this since it only suggests hitting 'rewind' and going back to the original unworkable, unjust, absurd blunder, except only halfway back, back to where the West Bank and Gaza must be provided free corridors between them, back to where Israel has a State with military and $39,000 USD per head subsidy from captured USG and a UN seat but where Palestinians are supposed to be grateful if they have drinking water after all their olive trees - they used to make the world's best olive oil - have been bulldozed, along with sanity and decency, into oblivion.
Events happen within contexts yet too few pay sufficient attention to the latter. The entire setup of the Zionist State was poorly configured and administered ab initio. Clearly what is needed is a 'back to the drawing board' process but there is no Authority other than Likud's and hasn't been since the British stepped away following Ottoman collapse.
De Villepin makes no mention of the overall context and the need to change it. Perhaps he is being diplomatic or perhaps he is reflecting the same ignorance which has enabled this mess all along. The Middle East States needs to step up and create its own Regional Authority by Treaty, which creates Law, and then make Israel an offer she can't refuse, something far more reasonably constructed than anything since the Balfour Deal was stuck
De V is right in one thing: many Israelis are going to have to move.
Posted by: Pq | Nov 8 2023 12:47 utc | 40
I didn't repeat something emanating from Israel, and it's clear I consider it rubbish.
I was only asking, possibly to some guests here on MoA that can have a best insight on the Arab world if the rumors about Al Arabia have some ground.
Consider that I can only rely on what I can find in western news and in English that is not my native language.
So, a barfly in SA or Arabian speaking, if any, could provide a better information.
Posted by: Mario | Nov 8 2023 13:02 utc | 46
Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 8 2023 12:59 utc | 46
"De V is right in one thing: many Israelis are going to have to move."
Wishful thinking is a HELL of a thing. Right now tens of thousands are Gazans are leaving their homes in N Gaza, never to come back. Nakba 2.0 or Nakba 23, which one has a better ring to it?
Posted by: Jose J. | Nov 8 2023 13:03 utc | 47
Exile | Nov 8 2023 12:42 utc | 39
Judging by the professionalism of the Hamas breakout and raid, I was expecting something like that once the Israelis closed in. I think the Israelis in the city fighting will be hit harder than they have ever been hit before. I saw a short video of a section of the Hamas tunnel system, very well built and apparently a lot of stores so they should be able to keep fighting for quite some time even if completely cut off from south Gaza.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 13:17 utc | 48
@ James 45
It goes back to Babylon
Seriously lol
Here my Spiritual take on this, people might doubt it but here it is regardless
The west and east battle intensified after the templars thugs lost their Temple Mount in Jerusalem on Friday the 13 in the year 1200 when salah eldeen who was a very respectful decent man loved by Christians, Muslims and Jews in the area (he died very poor because he gave all his money to people) another rabbit hole claims he was not Muslim but a hidden Christian. There are ancient history books (one book in specific that I read long time ago that tells the history accurately and depicts him in good light (was written by the templars themselves)
So the Iraq war was actually to take over Gilgamesh (aka Nimrod) remains. And this war currently is to take the rock of dome or mount temple back. It’s what’s underneath the temple that’s interesting. That also might explain why we moved our embassy to Jerusalem!!
In all the wars they always target the most indigenous people
In Iraq they targeted the yezeedes, in Syria they targeted the most ancient city were they spoke Aramaic, in Gaza the targeted the most ancient church Greek Orthodox. So if our DNA stores all of our history
There is a systematic destruction of the most ancient dna. Crazy right but it’s always the same in that region.
A theory that someone gave me long time ago, I didn’t dismiss it fully but now it’s more apparent.
So what’s under the Temple Mount that the real question?
Lol
Posted by: Danial | Nov 8 2023 13:18 utc | 49
No surprise everyone is talking in circles, mouthing the obvious because that is what De Villepin is doing albeit from a neoliberal point of view rather than a caring humanistic one. Like every other neolib politician De Villepin cannot bring himself to just be human, forget about keeping the rich getting rich via their parasitic exploitation of all the rest of us, if he did he wouldn't be mouthing platitudes about his perverse sense of justice, he would be demanding that all the zionist blow-ins be blown out.
This can be done in a 'just' way, that is without treating anyone like a sack of vegetables by giving any zionist who decides to stick around the option to do so on condition that any property in Palestine they claim be returned to the families it was stolen from, or failing that a system which allocates homes to Palestinians whose knowledge of their original homes has been lost in the sands of time, or more correctly because zionists slaughtered their antecedents in one of their many 'lawn mowing' efforts.
The countries of the region De Villepin hails from can be a helping hand (for a change) in this by accepting sufficient zionist refugees between all the previous enablers of zionism, divided fairly to ensure every former 'israeli' has a nation to move to.
I dunno who these zionists think they are but they need to accept that no particular old wives tale distorted by chinese whispers over many thousand years has a right to jack shit based on that superstition.
This may prove to be a costly weapon when some of the more looney tunes zionists continue their woeful xenophobic and racist behavior in their 'new' nation. However some of these zionists may behave, it will be nothing in comparison to the many decades of hell that Palestinians have been forced to live through because of the selfishness and perfidy of those countries vainglorious egoism which caused those pro-zionist countries to support the unconscionable merely because short sighted politicians saw it as a cheap way of boosting their gdp by not upsetting amerika.
I realise many will say this is impractical because I like all the billions of humans around this planet have simply had enough of zionist cruelty, murder and inhumanity.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 8 2023 13:23 utc | 50
Pffftt! I’m sorry b, I don’t think Bertrand’s gushing of the never elected De Villepin is in anyway going to let Europeans off the hook as they fret how to retain any of their colonial resources.
“ Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. “
Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr (24 November 1808 – 29 September 1890) was a French critic, journalist, and novelist.
"the more things change, the more they stay the same".
That well-known aphorism is all that I can muster.
In other words I would say ‘this is not the peacemaker we are searching for’
Don’t forget that the chaos of the Middle East was cooked upas Sykes-Picot over a hundred years ago! Before even the Balfour nonsense.
The apartheid regime is having to show its true racist white supremacist origin story as planned nearly 200 years ago by the elites in London , Paris and Berlin with their new emerging bastard empire the USA. The ‘Light and Dark’ that Nutty face has revealed below the Zionazist mask.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 8 2023 13:25 utc | 51
right now tens of thousands are Gazans are leaving their homes in N Gaza, never to come back. Nakba 2.0 or Nakba 23, which one has a better ring to it?
Posted by: Jose J. | Nov 8 2023 13:03 utc | 48
To where?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 13:25 utc | 52
To where?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 13:25 utc | 54
Obvious- To the UK or the EU and join millions of their religious compatriots AND escape the hated Jews:
Isn't that clear?
Posted by: william paul | Nov 8 2023 13:34 utc | 53
Posted by: william paul | Nov 8 2023 13:34 utc | 53
Wonderful! Can you tell me exactly which airlines, shipping lines they're using at present?
How are they embarking on their journey? The Gaza Port perhaps? The Rafah Crossing via Egypt?
Since you know so much, tell me more ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 13:44 utc | 54
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 13:17 utc | 48
"Judging by the professionalism of the Hamas breakout and raid, I was expecting something like that once the Israelis closed in. I think the Israelis in the city fighting will be hit harder than they have ever been hit before. I saw a short video of a section of the Hamas tunnel system, very well built and apparently a lot of stores so they should be able to keep fighting for quite some time even if completely cut off from south Gaza."
Likely not. October 7 was their best shot and it succeeded beyond their expectations. Everyone is focused on the Gaza civilians since they're visible, but make no mistake. Hamas is getting severely degraded. Their only hope for surviving this, is for Dark Brandon to force Israel into a ceasefire.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 13:25 utc | 52
"To where?"
From North Gaza to South Gaza for now. The fact that the civilians are moving now would suggest that Hamas is now fully underground and cannot force their people to stay in North Gaza, like they did up until now.
Posted by: Jose J. | Nov 8 2023 13:44 utc | 55
Very moving:
American nurse who got out of Gaza describes desperation she saw (Video) - CNN / Youtube
From North Gaza to South Gaza for now. The fact that the civilians are moving now would suggest that Hamas is now fully underground and cannot force their people to stay in North Gaza, like they did up until now.
Posted by: Jose J. | Nov 8 2023 13:44 utc | 55
I'm confused, 'william paul' told me they're going to Europe etc. One or both of you are bullshitting, who is it?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 13:45 utc | 57
Posted by: william paul | Nov 8 2023 13:34 utc | 53
"Obvious- To the UK or the EU and join millions of their religious compatriots AND escape the hated Jews"
Not yet. But hopefully soon. They can culturally enrich the shitholes in the West.
Posted by: Jose J. | Nov 8 2023 13:45 utc | 58
Thierry Meyssan's latest:
https://www.voltairenet.org/article219965.html
blurb:
We reproduce the text of Thierry Meyssan’s speech in Magdeburg (Germany), at the conference organized by the magazine Compact, "Amitié avec la Russie" , on November 4, 2023. In it, he explains what, in his view, constitutes the fundamental difference between the two conceptions of the world order now clashing from the Donbass to Gaza: that of the Western bloc and that to which the rest of the world refers. The question is not whether this order should be dominated by one power (unipolar) or by a group of powers (multipolar), but whether or not it should respect the sovereignty of each. He draws on the history of international law, as conceived by Tsar Nicholas II and Nobel Peace Prize winner Léon Bourgeois.
(As usual, up on the sitrepworld site.)
Wishful thinking is a HELL of a thing. Right now tens of thousands are Gazans are leaving their homes in N Gaza
To listen to you is to realize just how fucked up Israeli society is. The wishful thinking is that of you and the rest of your fascist coward countrymen who dream of murderering 2 million people in the most chickenshit way possible, somehow imagining this will save them from the consequences of your state policy of mass murder.
Israel will get no security from this. You have guaranted the converse with your inhumanity. Enjoy your vainglorious chest thumping as your army murders civilians. Everyone can see you for what you are.
And who will shed a tear for Israel should the same tactics be used against her? For history's turn is unexpected and memories long.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Nov 8 2023 13:49 utc | 60
De Villepin really has no choice but to condemn Netanyahu as the great mass of genuine Global Majority is calling for an end to the Genocide. So, he's just going with the flow, although he still pushes Zionist propaganda. He's also adopted the POV that escalation WILL happen unless the Zionists stop. He also speaks the previously unmentionable truths related to genuine security, that the Zionists undermined themselves. I must commend him for putting forth a solution that no other Western voice has to my knowledge--the Zionists must withdraw from Palestine to allow the long planned international solution going back to the 1923 Mandate. But there's one aspect that's missing and that's the DeZionification of the settler populace, which is similar to the DeNazification that must occur in Ukraine and elsewhere in the world. Afterall, it's Zionist ideology married to Western Imperialism that is at the root of this conflict, and both must be removed for the just settlement to occur.
Live updates from the Levant
https://english.almanar.com.lb/
The IDF conscripts are getting pummeled in Gaza. The Northern Front is very active with the IDF taking constant hits. The Likud royally messed up
Posted by: Exile | Nov 8 2023 13:54 utc | 62
Bom dia!
Toda essa crise mundial é fruto do desespero Ocidental.
Há uma Mudança na Ordem Mundial,e o Ocidente está perdendo sua Hegemonia.
Quanto mais próximo do Fim, mas agressivo fica.
Posted by: Antônio Carlos | Nov 8 2023 13:56 utc | 63
Reading Villepin makes me think that moral restrain weights more than ideas by itself.
This morning or yesterday, Lavrov’s dog said there should not be an Israël. They should be diasporised again because they are too stubborn. Juliania said, all children are worth of being cared about. Lavrov’s dog answered, I praise your care, But I maintain what I said.
So, when I read the first Lavrov’s dog, I agreed with. And to be more precise, I felt authorized to think so. And I felt an anger coming out also. Out of the pain of the killings.
There was an idea expressed and something in me wanted to coalesce to this idea. We are all more or less instable persons. Angers moves us and sometimes a bold idea feels as being a solution. A cut, rather, that would isolate us from pain or despair.
Once I was in Israël, and there was a small problem with an old man, in a bus. And I saw a tremendous desarray come out of him from is right not being acknoledged. And I thought, it is the Shoah pain that still comes out.
We are, I am, tempted, tried, this month, more than ever, by the barbary coming out. (the worst since 1943 Nazis said some valuable barfly yesterday.)
What I see happening in me, I see happening in the world. Getting stuck to some idea. Out of desarray.
Long time ago, I read history about 1940s troubled time in Europa. And watched men behave, in my armchair of being in a quieter time (for me, in my country and time). But now barbary is present and very mixed to whatever word we can say. And this present makes me feel being brother of arms of you barflies because of the sincerity I feel in yours posts. This sincerity, humanity, counts more than the mere idea we have.
To be more precise about being tried. I feel as if I was an electrical nervous system, build for some voltage, and I see our present WWIII, augmenting more and more the voltage that crosses me. So I take time to think over and cool down, more and more.
We would like the world to cool down, and we strive also, many here, to cool down also. And in this striving I feel brotherhood. The outside war might be the conglomerate of all the inside wars or conflits going on inside us.
Writting this is useful for me. I keep looking inside me, when I look in the world and the bar movements. And it is quite difficult to tame side’s ideas and reactions. Somehow there lies the blessing of being ageing. As many of us are. Old people hold better because they know themselves more. We are needed. This modern way looks like the old greek boulé. The council of ancients. The world keeps being itself and we found our place. We show guts and we need the barflies for it. As Villepin and others do.
Posted by: Baile | Nov 8 2023 14:01 utc | 64
My haiku didn’t appear on the other thread last night when I posted it.
A bit vogonish , I’ll try again, slightly less drunkenly, will it appear immediately?
Ready, cover your ears!
Nazis. Who Needs them?Not I, In Our World. Ever.
Over Our Bodies.
Dedicated to the 77th, ii, hasbara, etc script reader infestation on these boards recently.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 8 2023 14:03 utc | 65
If they can keep the tunnels open, and the fighters flooding in for months, the IDF will gradually attrit away ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 11:59 utc | 24
Impractical, transport capacity is probably limited and best reserved to supplies or at most a few seasoned operators. While it might have to pay a price to exercise it at the end of the day US-Israel have full escalation dominance against Egypt, from economic sanctions all the way to israeli nukes over Cairo including bombing anything that moves in Sinai and occupying the area around Gaza/Egypt border.
Posted by: Satepestage | Nov 8 2023 14:04 utc | 66
Hello friends. I bear witness that Palestine will be liberated. Palestine will be restored. All of Palestine.
If you don't believe me talk to the French empire. They attacked and occupied Algeria in 1830 massacring, slaughtering, raping, burning and looting the hapless people of that land who seemed to have no defense whatsoever. Admittedly, it was a long and bloody struggle but the heroic people of Algeria delivered conclusive defeat to the White Western judeo-christian fascist forces in the mid 1950s.
The white Western judeo-christian fascist forces occupying Palestine should take note. History is on your tail. And for those who invoke the fire and killing power of the fascist regime should take note-the beast billows fire the hardest when it's time has come.
Posted by: Ali | Nov 8 2023 14:06 utc | 67
Israel not only is committing genocide and its plans for ethnic cleansing but it’s human shit infest institutions across the west spewing the lies of the crooked dirty colonialist scum that bomb babiesZ
Israel is a failed state remove its filth from every institution in the west and smash it lying shit in the media.
Only elect leaders they will sanction it and remove the stink of these imported human shit of the Hitler nations.
No tolerance of shit in it and their stink shit out of it - duck evil satanic pigs need a programmed of denazification and reeducation.
Remove the failed state of Israel is the only policy now and hunt the #IDF baby killing evil cowardly runty shit.
Posted by: Timbo | Nov 8 2023 14:08 utc | 68
@ Satepestage | Nov 8 2023 14:04 utc | 66
All that, yes, but let’s not forget that for the past half century Egypt has been a reliable servant of “Israeli” and US interests.
Posted by: malenkov | Nov 8 2023 14:10 utc | 69
Hello friends. I bear witness that Palestine will be liberated. Palestine will be restored. All of Palestine.
Posted by: Ali | Nov 8 2023 14:06 utc | 67
That was never in doubt.
The only tragedy was in how many Palestinian children must die before it happens.
Nevertheless, as day follows night, Palestine will be free.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 14:10 utc | 70
white people are allowed to drop white phosphorous bombs.
Posted by: cafe2 | Nov 8 2023 14:11 utc | 71
US-Israel have full escalation dominance against Egypt, from economic sanctions all the way to israeli nukes over Cairo including bombing anything that moves in Sinai and occupying the area around Gaza/Egypt border.
Posted by: Satepestage | Nov 8 2023 14:04 utc | 66
Economic sanctions against a country that could close the Suez Canal in minutes, for months ... ?
Escalation dominance against a military more powerful than 'Israel's' ?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 14:12 utc | 72
On Israel reducing its security rather than increasing.
There is a good chance Israel deliberately try to provoke a reaction from Hamas (the mosque) that they in turn could react to. Perhaps coordinated with the US, the US planning to use it to conduct missile strike on Syria and/or Iran.
If so then what has occurred is much different than expected. The entire Muslim world has united around Palestine and the mosque. The Russia aircraft put on 24/7 patrols with Kinzals have neutralize the US armada and now the US needs a way out.
Russia/China, the Muslim world and RoW look to be fairly united around the two state solution.
The only option for the YS to keep what Bernie Kennedy calls 'America's unsinkable aircraft carrier' would be the two state solution which means first the US withholding its veto power and allow UN to recognize a Palestinian government, and then the US agreeing to a UN recognized border between Palestine and Isreal.
It seems the situation is Russia and possibly China will prevent the US from striking the Muslim countries. No two state solution and the Muslims will push the Israelis back into the sea and US loses its foothold in the region?
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 14:13 utc | 73
Another politician expresses the view that Israel exists for the purpose of controlling west asian oil...
https://t.me/antinatocoalition/13700
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:
“Israel is a stronghold for us... It's almost like having an aircraft carrier in the Middle East. This is our oldest ally.
If Israel disappears, Russia, China and the BRICS+ countries will control 90% of the world's oil, and this will be a disaster for US national security."
In the end, everything everywhere comes down to oil - the main goal of all conflicts in the Middle East.
Elsewhere... I'm hearing that Israel's economy is in tatters... that Hezbollah destroyed 112 Merkava Tanks themselves...
I think Bernard needs to expound on the views of Aleks...
https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/geopolitics-update
If the start of the Russian Special Military Operation marked the historical beginning of the end of Western Hegemony, then October 7 was a highly potent fire accelerator.
the party who is maintaining the perpetual conflict in the Middle East is neither the Jews, the Arabs, the Zionists, nor the Americans. It is a third party. The Western Oligarchy.
The whole of the Middle East serves the Western Oligarchy for one single reason: controlling the access to the oil of the Middle East for all nations worldwide. And to control its price to have direct leverage over the world economy
Aleks gets it... Putin gets it.... RFKJr gets it...
Do you now get it??
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 8 2023 14:17 utc | 74
Posted by: Jose J. | Nov 8 2023 13:03 utc | 47Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 8 2023 12:59 utc | 46
"De V is right in one thing: many Israelis are going to have to move."
Wishful thinking is a HELL of a thing. Right now tens of thousands are Gazans are leaving their homes in N Gaza, never to come back. Nakba 2.0 or Nakba 23, which one has a better ring to it?
Not to be argumentative - since you well describe facts on the ground - but the issue still remains: what next?
A. The Israelis successfully cleanse Israel of all Palestinians (except servants). Then what? Will she start trying to nibble off bits of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq to fulfill her Eretz Israel ambition? Will the Middle East remain supine for another century doing nothing? The Region needs to develop the ability to prevent Israel generating chaos and violence because 'that is what they do'; blithely hoping they will stop after they get the ethnic cleansing they now want, well that’s wishful thinking too.
B. Some sort of Authority steps up to insist that displacement, virtual imprisonment and murder involving millions is unacceptable. Such Authority should comprise the major Regional Powers like Turkey, S.A., Egypt and Iran. Borders that make sense have to be drawn up, mutually agreed upon and then enforced.
Both scenarios require the Region to take responsibility for itself bound by Law of Treaty, moreover with a hard line: Israel must abide by such Law or forfeit the right to a Jewish-only State in the Region.
Of course this won't be easy. But after 2024, let's see how the US looks; Israel's ability to project force because sponsored by the World’s Most Powerful Nation in History may be greatly reduced. (Though I suspect a deal is already in the works, but that’s another issue.)
How to remedy a sickness created a century ago? No easy answers.
7th operation
But with actual military campaign the IDF is paying back very painly.
Compared to Putins „pussying around“ tactics Netanyahoo is quite successfull with his Areal bombing
- Yesterday they ve entered the center of Gaza town
- Less KIAs compared to Putins SLOMO pussy cat campaign
Seems like Netanyahoo has learned from the Ukraine theater that pussy cat Slomo doesnt bring anything
Posted by: Tesla | Nov 8 2023 9:58 utc | 5
Yeah, let's see where Israel stands 18 months from now. Assuming it hasn't been flattened.
Posted by: Mary | Nov 8 2023 14:19 utc | 76
Summary of the South Lebanon front for 8 October 2023:
16:21 Hezbollah military media: Islamic Resistance fighters attacked on Wednesday the Israeli occupation site of Al-Bayyad off the Lebanese border village of Blida
15:55 Hezbollah Border Attacks Inflict Confirmed Casualties Upon Israeli Occupation Forces More..
15:27 Israeli media acknowledges two soldiers were injured in Hezbollah missile attack on Doviv
15:02 Fighters of the Islamic Resistance target with appropriate weapons an Israeli infantry force in the vicinity of the Shomera Base, causing confirmed injuries: statement
14:48 Al-Manar correspondent: Missile hits a military target in Doviv amid reports about casualties inflicted upon the enemy
14:44 Zionist artillery targets the outskirts of the Lebanese town of Yaroun: Al-Manar reporter
14:06 Al-Manar correspondent reports the targeting of the Israeli occupation site of Al-Bayyad off the Lebanese village, Blida
13:39 Israeli media: Anti-tank missile fired from Lebanon towards the so-called kibbutz of Yiftah
13:34 Al-Manar correspondent in south Lebanon reports Israeli shelling of Lebanese border towns of Blida and Mhaibeeb
13:01 Islamic Resistance in Lebanon: Confirmed casualties as our fighters targeted Israeli infantry force near Shumira Barracks at border with occupied Palestine
12:32 Israeli media: Hezbollah wages real war across the northern border
12:29 Israeli artillery shells the vicinity of Ayta Al-Shaab border town: Al-Manar correspondent in south Lebanon
11:40 Al-Manar correspondent in south Lebanon: Israeli artillery shells area between border towns of Ramieh and Beit Lif
11:34 Al-Manar correspondent in south Lebanon: Israeli artillery shells Labbouneh border area
10:11 Israeli media reports anti-tank missile, mortar shells fired from Lebanon towards Western Galilee
Summary of the South Lebanon front for 7 October 2023:
On November 7, artillery duels and clashes between Hezbollah and the IDF continued in the Lebanese border area;
On November 7, several rockets were fired at HaGoshrim and Dan;
On November 7, Israeli artillery shelled the Marun al-Ras area;
On November 7, Israeli artillery shelled the Naqoura area;
On November 7, Israeli artillery shelled the Yarin area;
On November 7, Israeli drones hit the Mhabib area;
On November 6, Israeli artillery shelled the Ayta al-Shab area;
On November 7, Hezbollah targeted Shomera with an ATGM missile;
Hezbollah fired rockets on Israeli artillery deployed in the Golan Heights. Fires broke out in the area.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 14:26 utc | 78
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 8 2023 14:17 utc | 74
This was openly admitted by Theodore Herzl in his "The Jewish State" 1896.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 14:29 utc | 79
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 8 2023 13:52 utc | 61But there's one aspect that's missing and that's the DeZionification of the settler populace, which is similar to the DeNazification that must occur in Ukraine and elsewhere in the world. Afterall, it's Zionist ideology married to Western Imperialism that is at the root of this conflict, and both must be removed for the just settlement to occur.
I believe that this must come from within, not without. The Zionist/Nazi agendas derive from a universal mentality - 'my way or the highway'. True civilizations curtail such impulses to favour peaceful co-existence. This requires active agency, it doesn't just happen. Such civilizations need top-to-bottom solidarity, including some sort of blend of practical and spiritual-ethical traditions. This used to be well understood - it’s common sense basically - but after over a century of rampant materialism it is regarded as questionable at best if understood at all. Intead, we have only dystopian transhumanism and such on offer.
Such change from within might come from exhaustion and politico-economic hardship forcing the polity to look within for renewal.
Meanwhile, those on the outside have to do better at containing the damage. Multinational endeavours are notoriously hard to establish and even harder to maintain; the excesses of the current Hegemon provide an ideal motivation factor, but if that fades away, so might their current solidarity. That said, for now, it's working pretty well.
And yet not well enough to prevent both Israel and the West from provoking chaos and violence holding the entire world back and costing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives.
I suspect the plan is to foment serious levels of internal dysfunction and violence in the US next year to weaken the Beast from within so that it can no longer meddle without.
This will probably earn me a LOT of flames, but:
Gazans voted Hamas into power. Hamas was fairly elected, you've said so yourself. They got the government they voted for, they've never been 'captive' ... unless you want to change the story and say they were pressured into their choice, which would delegitimize Hamas and make their complete destruction all the more justified.
Was it morally wrong to firebomb Nazi Germany? I'm not invoking Godwin's claim. Seriously, as a moral action in the last formally-declared, Proper War: hundreds of thousands were killed then, making this look like the Boer War or so, by comparison. Israel has made extremely clear that they consider themselves in a state of war, no less than in 1973. When Netanyahu used the term, no Israeli argued it for a moment. So: are high civilian casualties while in a state of war unacceptable? If so, then were the Allies wrong to maintain a victory-at-all-costs mentality?
... No, it was not different then. Hamas has explicitly, overtly stated, to the point of people's eyes glazing over, that they seek to erase Israel fro the map, and thereafter "kill the swine". They and those like them overtly deny Israel's right to exist. They did it in 1948, they did it in 1956, they did it in 1967, and they did it in 1973.
Some people change, true enough. But a lot of people don't. The imperialist West has not changed since at least 1917, and everyone here knows it. Russians are still Russians, with a specifically Russian worldview. Chinese are still Chinese. This is another one, despite all the hand-wringing.
Posted by: Triangulum | Nov 8 2023 14:42 utc | 81
Gazans voted Hamas into power. Hamas was fairly elected, you've said so yourself. They got the government they voted for, they've never been 'captive' ...
Posted by: Triangulum | Nov 8 2023 14:42 utc | 81
Gee whizz there we go again! This garbage argument was thoroughly debunked some forum threads back already.
SMH.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 14:49 utc | 82
Hamas and the PLO recognize the right of Jewish people to live in peace in the region. Period.
Posted by: Exile | Nov 8 2023 14:53 utc | 83
Scorpion | Nov 8 2023 14:34 utc | 80--
From within; from without; it must come from either, likely both.
Today, Putin met with Deputy Head of the Central Military Commission of China Zhang Youxia at his dacha prior to his trip to Kazakhstan. It must be assumed that the Palestine conflict was discussed along with supporting policy approaches as they must act in tandem. We'll likely know what actions were discussed when they are implemented.
Triangulum | Nov 8 2023 14:42 utc | 81
Nazi Germany.... Lebensraum, Genocide.
Zionist Israel... Lebensraum, Genocide.
According to your theory it is right and proper to wipe out all of Tel Aviv in a firestorm.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 14:54 utc | 85
Triangulum | Nov 8 2023 14:42 utc | 81
"Gazans voted Hamas into power. Hamas was fairly elected, you've said so yourself. They got the government they voted for, they've never been 'captive'
I'm not following you. Who said who was "captive", other than all the Palestinians being, till now, captives of the Zionists.
Yes, Hamas was fairly elected and is the legitimate Palestinian government now carrying out a heroic fight.
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Nov 8 2023 14:55 utc | 86
Economic sanctions against a country that could close the Suez Canal in minutes, for months ... ?
Escalation dominance against a military more powerful than 'Israel's' ?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 8 2023 14:12 utc | 72
As I said there would be a price to pay but Suez being blocked should not be fatal for the USA. The IDF is overrated but the egyptian army is the typical arab regime force, the US would make mincemeat out of it.
Posted by: Satepestage | Nov 8 2023 14:59 utc | 87
Paul @4
The US's stalwart support for Israel is well entrenched in present US politics.
_--------
I realized it's just semantics, but I wish we would speak more directly about why our system is corrupt. Specifically it's the money, if we took the money out, Israel wouldn't be able to do this to the United States congress.
Posted by: bryan | Nov 8 2023 15:00 utc | 88
Israel has killed more Palestinian children since October 7th than they have since 1967 until then.
https://youtu.be/x6dJMvZi5Zw?t=296
Posted by: too scents | Nov 8 2023 15:01 utc | 89
Global Times has an excellent report built around the context of the G-7 Foreign Ministers meeting in Japan and the widening gap it revealed:
"The US' double standards and excessive bias toward Israel are leading to a collapse of its credibility and trust among allies. For the US alliance system, the Ukraine crisis is a test of Washington's strengths, while the Palestinian crisis is a test of conscience. And out of their conscience, its allies are distancing themselves from the US, albeit they still have to align verbally with it," Lü Xiang, a research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences told the Global Times on Wednesday.
Barflies will want to read the entire article. IMO, the above assessment is credible and important.
Two of the most reviled figures in British history were 2 murderers, a man called Brady and a woman called Hindley. They kidnapped and murdered about 5 children (possibly one or two more) in the 1960s.
They were understandably hated, loathed and despised, and should probably just have been hanged, if the death penalty had not been recently abolished.
But they "only" murdered a few children, they at least did their own dirty work, and they were probably very damaged individuals from the outset.
And compare their record with that of the rabid Zionist regime, its cheerleaders and enablers amongst western leaders. Netanyahu and all the subhuman filth around him, openly and brazenly carrying out genocide and threatening to drop an atom bomb on Gaza. 20,000 dead, thousands more dead and dying under the rubble, tens of thousands maimed. With more bought and paid for subhuman filth like Biden, Johnson, Macron, VD Leyen, grovelling and crawling on their knees to these Zionist psychopaths, paying for it all to the tune of tens and billions, and supplying all the bombs and missiles to the tune of 50 plane loads a day.
All these people, without exception, are literally a thousand times worse than Brady and Hindley. If Brady and Hindley came back from the dead and ruled over us, they would literally be a vast improvement over the creatures who do so now.
Posted by: anon | Nov 8 2023 15:07 utc | 91
bryan
The main problem for the US the the large zionist Christian voting block, the zionist Christian politicians. Then there are the large numbers of zionist jews in the US.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 15:09 utc | 92
Dominique De Villepin: "Israel would continue to live in fear".
Living in fear would justify to keep israeli military spending at these insane levels as well.
KEEP IN MIND: Osama Bin Laden had very little effort to find the most motivated people to execute the hijacking of those 4 planes who were involved in the 9/11 attacks. Everyone in the Middle East knows Israel is treating the palestininas as second and third rate citizens. Everyone knows Israel is supported by the US. So, those attacks on 9/11 against the US were welcomed by A LOT OF people in the Middle East and North Africa.
De Vilepin is right that there needs to be a political solution for the palestinian conflict. Only then there can be lasting peace in the MIddle East.
Posted by: Mr. Market | Nov 8 2023 15:10 utc | 93
Some claim approvingly that all-knowing Israel let the Hamas wolf in on purpose as a trap in order to apply the final expulsive solution to the 'Gaza problem' once and for all. A supposedly brilliant trap set by Israel, a sort of jujitsu move whereby the enemy condemns himself utterly because although it is likely you may have freely left the door ajar, the crime, the only crime was the one committed by the individual or group that invaded the home whose door was left open.
However if it were shown to be quite likely, 65% or more probable, that that is indeed what happened, would this, with there being even just such a percentage of positive probability for that theory, not shake the confidence of the population of Israel to its very foundations, putting in greatest doubt trust in their government and military and security services for decades to come, indeed imperil the very existence of said state and project?
Posted by: Ludo | Nov 8 2023 15:16 utc | 94
@ Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 15:09 utc | 92
---
Voters don't matter. Whatsoever.
What drives politics is wealth.
https://www.forbes.com/real-time-billionaires
Posted by: too scents | Nov 8 2023 15:17 utc | 95
"self-defense does not give an indiscriminate right to kill civilian populations"
Within just a single month, Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians (7,587+) than 19 months’ worth of Ukrainian civilian deaths (7,550) that could be attributable to Russia.
In four weeks, Israel has mass-murdered 4,237 children, 2,719 women, and 631 elderly, for a total of 7,587 of children, women, and elderly civilians.
https://ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-32
That does not even count all the adult male civilians killed, nor does it count any of the 2,450 people missing (including 1,350 children,) the vast majority of who are quite likely dead under all the Israel-bombed rubble.
Civilians killed in Ukraine between February 24, 2022 and September 24, 2023: "7,550 killed [..] in territory controlled by the Government when casualties occurred" and "2,151 killed [..] in territory occupied by the Russian Federation when casualties occurred."
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023
So over a span of 19 months of the Russian Special Military Operation in Ukraine, 7,550 civilian deaths might be attributable to Russia.
That means that Israel has been killing civilians at over 19-20 times the rate attributable to Russia.
That means Russia has been careful about avoiding Ukrainian civilian deaths. That means Israel has been slaughtering children, women, and elderly.
Where are the West's sanctions against the Israeli regime for their monstrous massacre of civilians?
Where is the West's ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu for war crimes? The entire world can see how the ICC has no credibility and is a Western-controlled kangaroo court.
Posted by: Canadian Cents | Nov 8 2023 15:18 utc | 96
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 8 2023 14:53 utc | 84Scorpion | Nov 8 2023 14:34 utc | 80--
From within; from without; it must come from either, likely both.
Always both, naturally.
They are going to have to develop Agency/Authority not only with spine (within) but also teeth and claws (without).
My main point though is that denazification cannot be imposed from without; the more you try the more you create. From without you can counter troop movements, trade routes and such; but mentality? You can't force that sort of thing from without. But you can change the external conditions and contexts which in turn will influence the mentalities arising within it.
Right now the Hegemon meddles far afield, i.e. is hyper-externalized Yang. The Yin counter to this is to make it pay more attention within. So rather than confront the Hegemon kinetically, they are working the situation to hobble it from within.
This is already underway, with much more to come. Externally the Hegemon has lost the ability to create; all it can do is destroy; so their only card now is that of The Spoiler. An important card, yes, but one that can never actually win. The geopolitical table has already turned. Which is why all current conflicts are being met by the multipolarists with blocking actions (Yin), not advances (Yang).
That said, destructive-demonic mentalities exist in all individuals and States as evidenced by the BIS tentacles in nearly all developed nations now holding back the BRICS currency formulation.
There are always wheels within wheels, always spinning, always changing. No easy answers. The Savior today can soon evolve into the new Hegemon tomorrow.
karlof1 | Nov 8 2023 15:04 utc | 90
The oz PM has just visited or still in China. The left party in oz, the labor party won the last elections, where a hard right fascist faction had been in power and destroyed our trade relations with China. The left party seem to have been repairing ties and it seems his visit to China has turned out well. Just before going to China he had been to US for a meeting with Biden and mouthed the right words there.
As far as resuming friendly ties with China, it is looking good at the moment, but once the US launch its war against China, no matter what party is in power here in oz, they will have to toe the US line.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 8 2023 15:19 utc | 98
"self-defense does not give an indiscriminate right to kill civilian populations"
Children make up about 31% of Israel's Jewish population, yet according to Israeli authorities, of the October-7-related fatalities and abductions of Israeli and foreign nationals, only 2.73% (31) of the 1,135 identified fatalities were children, and only 12.5% (30) of the estimated 240 taken to Gaza were children. Combined, children were just 4.4% (61) of the 1,375 identified Israeli/foreign fatalities and abductees (taken to Gaza for future prisoner exchange for Palestinian children in Israeli prisons.)
(fatality numbers from https://ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-32)
That indicates that the October 7 Hamas attacks were not indiscriminate (like Israel's brutal attacks on Gaza clearly are) and almost exclusively targetted adults (95.6%) and not children (4.4%). Again, only 2.73% of those killed were children, killed either by Gaza fighters or by the Israeli forces fighting them, some possibly in cross-fire. If the Gaza militants had been indiscriminate like Israel, there would have been closer to 426 Israeli children killed or abducted (31% of 1,375) not just 61 (4.4%).
On the other hand, 4,237 children in Gaza have been killed by Israel, with another 1,350 children missing (and mostly likely dead under all of the Israeli-bombed rubble,) for a total of 5,587 children killed or missing.
That's out of 10,328 identified people killed in Gaza by Israel, and 2,450 people missing (and mostly likely dead under all the Israel-bombed rubble,) for a total of 12,778 Gazans killed or missing.
So children are 44% of those killed or missing in Gaza as a result of Israel's indiscriminate killing.
And children constitute about 47% of Gaza's population.
So Israel's killing has quite clearly been indiscriminate (and a war crime) while Hamas and the other Gaza militant groups mostly killed or abducted adults (95.6%) on October 7.
Who are the monsters and terrorists?
Posted by: Canadian Cents | Nov 8 2023 15:20 utc | 99
Re: Protectorate
Maybe the Jewish State (1947 borders) could be demilitarized and made into a international protectorate with Chinese and Indian peacekeepers stationed in country.
That might finally bring peace and security to the Jewish State
Posted by: Exile | Nov 8 2023 15:20 utc | 100
Verify your Comment
Previewing your Comment
This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.
As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.
Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.
Posted by: |