too scents | Nov 17 2023 8:34 utc | 244
I stand corrected. Should have known.

Posted by: Stonebird | Nov 17 2023 9:15 utc | 503

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 16 2023 18:47 utc | 117
Thanks for the perspective.

Posted by: anon2020 | Nov 17 2023 9:27 utc | 505

“Hmm need to work in a Chinatown reference somehow.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 17 2023 8:15 utc | 242”

A very different movie to “Chinatown” but how about simply “Big Trouble in Little China”? 😀 (that made me want to watch it again! Many years since last time).

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Nov 17 2023 9:30 utc | 507

@robinthehood 77
I note your assertion that the west/Germany has “gifted” technologies to China. That is patently misleading and false. Assuming you are not a lawyer, there is a fundamental doctrine in contract law known as “freedom of contract”. When the west wanted to enter the Chinese market which they desperately did, one of the conditions was technology transfer and to which they agreed without protest. Thus the transfer of technology forms part of the consideration (a legal term) of the agreement by such companies in entering Chinese market resulting in huge profits earned by said companies over the past 4 decades.
Nothing was gifted. It was part of the consideration of the agreement. As opposed to a gift which is a conveyance without any consideration.

Posted by: Passé-Partout | Nov 17 2023 10:41 utc | 509

Unfortunately the state men and strategists that the US had in the 1940s are gone and replaced with incompetent politicians. One of the basic rules of states men is not to offend. Uncouth behavior might play well to a US base, but it make you look low class and uneducated on the world stage. Everyone who heard him outside of the anglophere said here is a man who is incapable of understanding his stated adversary.
Taiwan has drawn it’s lessons from the Ukrainian war and knows that from the US point of view they are expendable peone and their country will end up looking like a smoking crater if they follow Biden’s lead. Biden’s uneducated behavior is not winning trust, hearts, and minds on the Island. It is predictable that they will vote KTM on Jan 13th and the US can chalk up another failed pivot to Asia.

Posted by: ATM | Nov 17 2023 11:00 utc | 511

Xi presented Biden with two options and Biden took them both within a space of an hour. Was Xi surprised at Biden’s statesmanship? Something similar has happened with Macron and Trudeau (made famous by Xi’s reaction).

Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 17 2023 11:08 utc | 513

I don’t think Biden is entirely compos mentis, and having an apparently amicable meeting with Xi and then insulting him is predictable. Biden may even have forgotten the meeting.
Posted by: Waldorf | Nov 17 2023 9:05 utc | 250
Yeah, he isn’t that much different from what he has always been, same personality for sure. Mainly less coherent, shorter attention span.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 17 2023 11:28 utc | 515

Nothing was gifted. It was part of the consideration of the agreement. As opposed to a gift which is a conveyance without any consideration.
Posted by: Passé-Partout | Nov 17 2023 10:41 utc | 255
But if it was gifted then indeed it was a gift and nothing is owed in return for a gift.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 11:52 utc | 517

Posted by: greg | Nov 16 2023 18:44 utc | 115
“The same Wikipedia article cited by the commenter acknowledges that the Chinese Communist Party can stamp out any opposition that it wants to eliminate.”
Ask the Wobblies (if you can find any still alive) and they’ll tell you exactly how that works in the US too.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Nov 17 2023 11:58 utc | 519

BlackRock Inc.’s Larry Fink and Stephen Schwarzman of Blackstone Inc. were among the top US executives seated at President Xi Jinping’s table at an exclusive dinner in San Francisco, where the Chinese leader pitched his nation as a positive
Posted by: too scents | Nov 17 2023 8:34 utc | 248
The Zionist Jews prepare to insert themselves into a new host while the old host lies dying on the plain …
(*Said in a David Attenborough narrative voice …)

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 11:58 utc | 521

Some defend Biden writing that he told the truth. How Xi should respond to a reporter question “Is Biden a demented cretin?” With truth or an evasion?
BTW, didn’t Biden inform us how shocked he was that verified pictures of 40 babies beheaded by Hamas exist? We still do not know how he arrived at this, just a febrile imagination or someone told him so (or even showed the pictures)?
However, USA supports democracy, I was truly impressed when Blinken congratulated Nigeria on upcoming presidential election there. All three candidates were former bankers with corruption cases, and the winner was … surprise … a corrupted banker. Back in USA we have an even better system called “money primary”, allowing diverse sectors to “have dibs”.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 17 2023 12:10 utc | 523

I just had dinner in Manila with wealthy Fil-chinese businessmen. They all know the USA and exclaimed that China is #1 now because Xi finally got the streets of SF cleaned up. They were almost giddy. They worry about America dragging the Philippines into another proxy war. Of course if the PLA ever got here these fine capitalists would have their families scurry off to the USA. We are screwed.

Posted by: Jstert | Nov 17 2023 12:11 utc | 525

Xi is a communist. He understands that Biden is just a puppet for the capitalist elites. Their meeting was just a sideshow for the ignorant plebes. Less ignorant plebes know the real meeting of leaders was between Xi and the western oligarchs. Those western oligarchs’ efforts to curry favor tells us something of the health of their capitalist system, and it is not good.
By the way, nobody elected those western oligarchs. If you want to see what dictators look like, there you go.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 17 2023 12:40 utc | 527

So, what is a “dictator”?
A ruler that has come to power by illegitimate means, serving interests other than his supposed electorate?
Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 17 2023 7:05 utc | 242
That’s what all the losers say.
The reality is, no one person rules.
Every dictator, monarch, tyrant, despot, autocrat, chief, or “president” is the symbol of an “electorate”—all the people who share a political goal and are willing to enforce it.

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 17 2023 13:03 utc | 529

It’s that time of the month again. Eric Li says:

In China there are a lot of problems, but at the moment, the Chinese, the state party, has proven an extra-ordinary ability to change. I make the joke how in America you can change political parties, but you can’t change the policies. In China you cannot change the party, but you can change policies. So in sixty-five or sixty-six years China’s been run by one single party, yet the political changes that have taken place in China these past sixty-six years have been wider and broader and greater than probably any major country in modern memory. China is a market economy and it’s a vibrant market economy, but it is not a capitalist country. Here’s why. There’s no way a group of billionaires can control the politburo as it does American policy-making. So in China you have a vibrant market economy, but capital does not rise above political authority. Capital does not have enshrined rights. In America capital, the interest of capital and capital itself, has risen above the American nation. The political authority cannot check the power of capital. And that’s why America is a capitalist country, but China is not.

annotated with character.har development of “heaven” over um millennia.

Posted by: snl2002 | Nov 17 2023 13:25 utc | 531

Every dictator, monarch, tyrant, despot, autocrat, chief, or “president” is the symbol of an “electorate”—all the people who share a political goal and are willing to enforce it.
Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 17 2023 13:03 utc | 265
Amen. Finally someone gets it.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 13:28 utc | 533

Biden has been “extremely absurd and irresponsible” for all of his public life. Most likely even in his private life. As President, his handlers know this and are happy to have him behave as he ever has. Provocation is their intent. In whatever form.

Posted by: BillDing | Nov 17 2023 13:31 utc | 535

“BlackRock Inc.’s Larry Fink and Stephen Schwarzman of Blackstone Inc. were among the top US executives seated at President Xi Jinping’s table at an exclusive dinner in San Francisco, where the Chinese leader pitched his nation as a positive force for world peace.”
and perhaps they could threaten Xi, his family, his country and his economy in person in the usual carrot / stick zionist ‘negotiations’

Posted by: ld | Nov 17 2023 13:42 utc | 537

Not really a screw up. It is just who Biden is. He’s just being himself.

Posted by: WG | Nov 17 2023 13:47 utc | 539

A thought:
Xi could single-handledly renovate America by making a trip to every American city.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 13:58 utc | 541

Xi Jinping is trying to flog cheap and hard Chinese labor on His territory – mainland China – to US capital: he has to, because not enough money to pay even government personnel, only for Taiwan assault prep. Can fake beggars be choosers?
Natural combination: pure materialists in the CPC top and pure materialists on Wall street. A FWE wet dream, a plain rice and cctv distraction nightmare for the plebs on both sides of the Pacific.
China carbon peaking by 2030 maybe, when California is surely back on 1830 energy consumption level on wagon trails with donkeys and bullocks.
More BS, lies and hype ….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTgtQ3Fl1jw, 19:26

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 17 2023 14:28 utc | 543

Xi visits San Francisco, and a magical transformation occurs.
There are no armies of homeless junkies shooting up in the streets, and all the mountains of rubbish, discarded needles, and human waste magically disappear overnight.
America could solve all its myriad of social problems simply by inviting Xi to visit all its major cities one by one.

Posted by: anon | Nov 17 2023 14:54 utc | 545

He didn’t “blow it” – this is, for whatever reason, the consistent pattern of US diplomacy under Biden administration. Alternate a make-nice formality immediately followed by an insult or escalation.

Posted by: pxx | Nov 17 2023 15:11 utc | 547

A unipolar world, much like a monarchy or dictatorship on a smaller scale, is not inherently bad. Provided of course that the hegemon, king or dictator is a benevolent one who rules for the benefit of its vassal states or subjects. But when it does go bad, it has the ability to create the most damage of any type of governing system as it is unequaled and overpowering. We can see this from the US actions over several decades, or even centuries, with the oppression of its own people and the color revolutions, invasions and perhaps most detrimentally, the fiscal and economic policies forced on other nations. Hopefully, the rise of China and the resurgence of Russia will serve to rein in, at least somewhat, the worst impulses of the US.
A bipolar world, like when the Soviet Union and US were the two major world powers, has the benefit of deterrence between the two competing powers as neither wants to risk losing their status to the other or worse, being annihilated altogether. However, this does not stop either of them from trying to expand their sphere of influence and thus their potential power over the other. They can attempt this many ways including regional wars to subjugate more countries to bring under their rule and increase their power. They can also attempt to weaken their adversary by creating uprisings and revolutions in their adversary’s vassal states. Eventually though one of the powers will achieve superiority and create a unipolar world.
A multipolar world is similar to a bipolar world in its potential deterrence of war amongst the equal nations. But it also has the same disadvantages that the bipolar world had with none of the nations wanting to lose their status and doing whatever is necessary to maintain their status vis-a-vis the other nations.
People all over the world would prefer to have an end to wars and to be able to live in peace. To have the ability to focus on raising their standard of living and opportunities to improve their lives and their children’s future.
The problem of course are the people who rule the nation-states, some of whom will engage in selfishness and corruption to keep their power. Certainly there are some good people, selfless rulers who can see the bigger picture and know that if everyone wins then they too will win albeit maybe not to the same extent as they could have if they had acted selfishly and greedily. But its unrealistic to simply rely on the hope that we get a benevolent ruler instead of a corrupt one.
The solution does not lie in what name we give a political system or an economic system as all systems are fine on paper but are vulnerable to corrupt people willing to undermine or operate outside of the system. Who is to say that the method a tribe in South America chooses to govern themselves by is any better or worse than a system voted on by people in Turkmenistan?
The solution is to limit the ability of corrupt/selfish/greedy/evil people from obtaining power. The solution is to limit the ability of a government to abuse its people. The solution is to prevent one nation from exploiting or warring on another. How do we do that?
The people who created the US tried to limit their government’s ability to oppress its people by providing a list of rights for the people and restrictions on the government. For that to work, the people need to not only know their rights but be willing to stand up for them. It also needs a government willing to abide by the restrictions placed upon it. At this point, we can see that the attempt has failed. Another attempt was the creation of the UN. I don’t think there is any need to demonstrate how this attempt has also failed.
Perhaps what’s needed are nations with educated populaces and an engaged and active citizenry. Perhaps the punishment for corruption needs to be so severe few will be willing to suffer the risk. Perhaps the people of the nation need to be wholly homogenous in their religious and social beliefs. Perhaps the solution is to have a nation of entirely different groups of people, none of whom are able to dominate another group. Perhaps the solution is to have all nations equal in size and power. Perhaps the solution is to emulate Switzerland. But how do we accomplish any of those possibilities?
I wish I had the answer. Clearly though, until we can prevent selfish “evil” people from obtaining power, it is foolish to expect anything different from what humanity has experienced for most of its existence with a few bright spots in different places at different times.
I’m aware of where I am posting this comment so I expect the answer will be socialism. But the Nazis were socialists before they were called fascists. Again, its not the system but the people applying the system that is the problem.

Posted by: Botched_Lobotomy | Nov 17 2023 15:35 utc | 549

Truly, those who know don’t talk and those who talk don’t know. Most writing here have lots of stereotypes about China, but little knowledge or experience. This is as true of the Marxists as of the anti-communists. They’d be better off reading ROMANCE OF THE THREE KINGDOMS.
Try get your heads around the fact, guys, that PR China is NOT Communist any more. Nor is the Party.

Posted by: lester | Nov 17 2023 15:57 utc | 551

comp-lit assignment for the week ending Oct 8!
Warring States, 490 BC – 91 BC
Republic
Analects
Topic: “filial piety”

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 17 2023 16:01 utc | 553

Re Xi’s business banquet, I can’t help comparing in to the debauched business banquets traditional in China! What kind of food did they eat? Was there karaoke? Tosts of strong alcohol? No “chickens” I fear, in Puritanical America. (Mr. Xi is rumored to be pretty puritanical himself).
It’d be hilarious is the food were Hunan food and Mr. Xi made everyone toast Mao shen, but probably he didn’t. 🙁

Posted by: lester | Nov 17 2023 16:11 utc | 555

The people who created the US tried to limit their government’s ability to oppress its people by providing a list of rights for the people and restrictions on the government.
Posted by: Botched_Lobotomy | Nov 17 2023 15:35 utc | 275
BWAH!
An economic interpretation of the Constitution of the United States

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 17 2023 16:14 utc | 557

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 13:58 utc | 271:

A thought:
Xi could single-handledly renovate America by making a trip to every American city.

Nah, I doubt it! It was rumored that California spent $1.2 billion to clean SF for this event. I surmise that the street people were paid to clear out. It was estimated there were 8,000 of them. My guess is that they were each paid $2K (to street junkies 2grand is REAL money!) to leave for a while. So that accounts for no more than $0.02 billion of the $1.2B. Detergents and water spray, even assuming employing 2,000 janitors for two days would cost probably another $2 million, tops. So the $1.2B actually goes into whose pocket??? I think you can figure it out.
That’s the American way these days. I see it in roadwork, in hospital operations, in defense spendings, in any government (ie, public) spendings. The public will cheer. A job well done, they said. But the thieves cannot, I repeat, CANNOT! do it too many times without the public coming to light.
So, Xi may be able to do it another time or two, say for Seattle or Philly??? But no more!!! I doubt that he’ll ever go to Seattle or Philly.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 19:09 utc | 559

Saw elsewhere Xi seen at private dinner with, IIRC, principals of Black Rock, Pfizer, and Blackstone (or some such). Some of the heaviest hitters out there on the Western Front, those that control trillions in capital and, perhaps more importantly, narratives of the MSM.
Posted by: Quidam | Nov 17 2023 7:59 utc | 245
…………………………..
Including the narrative that we are at war with China and Russia. Those oligarchs clearly are not. China is where stuff gets made outside their tax jurisdictions. The conflict narrative is to make people feel they need The Establishment to protect them, though it looks like They will soon intensify the feeling of helpless insecurity in order to make us an offer we can’t refuse. We will own nothing whilst an unaccountable Uber Class controls everything.
Multipolarity as Utopia is another such narrative, although with more substance. The world order will no longer be Anglo centric. A good thing, maybe. Westerners can renounce our Chosen-ness and rediscover Normal, delight in Ordinary. But wait: They have in mind a New Normal which will be anything but. Is there no good way forward? Maybe we should believe Putin and Xi and accept their benevolent protection? Or is it yet another con?
Not for nothing do the Buddhists call all this Samsara, a spinning wheel which never stops. Even seeming death provides no respite, just the impetus for the next turn of the ever-spinning Wheel of Woe!

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 17 2023 19:41 utc | 561

There has been quite a bit of discussions on whether China is Communist, or whether Xi/Deng/Mao are/were communists. In my opinion, that’s a silly thesis formulation of an abstract/intangible notion that’s a waste of time typically taken up by lazy scholars who have nothing better to do than imagining themselves enlightening the world of enlightenment. Why would a communist in Germany or Russia do what a communist in China would do, given the differences in culture, social norms, climate/soil/landscape differences? What exactly is a communist supposed to do to qualify as a communist???
Mao/Deng/Xi call themselves Communists only as a convenient summation of their inner beliefs. They are Chinese patriots and wants China to do well in the global community. From what they have read and mentally digested, strains of Marx/Engels social ideas fit the remedies that would help China solve its problems, because of its backwardness of the recent past, the presence of external animosity wanting to subjugate Chinese population (I’m looking at you, White Colonists!!!), and the sheer vastness of its population size. Problems that arise from amidst a population of 1 million is vastly different from that of 1 billion! For China, equality and peaceful harmony can best coexist under some form of communism. That’s what the succession of leaders in China have come to recognize. Mao/Deng/Xi are just the notable personalities among these leaders. There are many, many of them, in villages, regions, cities, provinces. Thank GOODNESS there are!!!!
Mao/Deng/Xi also consider themselves Confucians. Their projections of how the world ought to be governed are in synch with ideas taught to by Marx, Confucius, Jesus, Mohammad, innumerable thinkers/philosophers in human history. They are just great people, that’s all. Communists my foot!
One thing Communist China insists, that I heartily applaud, is the thesis that land can only be owned collectively by the Nation! Yes, humans as individuals should not have title to land ownership. Land can be exclusively used by individuals on timed leases, but in theory should not belong to any person or family. I hope China would NEVER go back on this insistence.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 19:42 utc | 563

I don’t know where I read it, I think Simplicius, something about 43% sales towards China from KLA (making tools for chip factories, one of the remaining high tech companies left in America that actually produces something). So I checked the latest report, and here is the detail:
Last quarter (3 months till September 30.), sales by region:
China 43%
Taiwan 17%
North America 10%
Japan 10%
Korea 9%
Europe and Israel 7%
Rest of Asia 4%
So in summary, China + Taiwan accounts for 60% of the business. North America, Europe, and Israel, the core “West”, buys 17% of the high tech stuff. So even if the US has the leading edge stuff, they are _extremely_ dependent on Asia, at least as a market. This is just KLA, but how many cutting edge companies (that produce something) are really in the US. Lam Research. And then Micron will be the first to get into troubling waters, once all those new factory in mainland start pumping new (memory) chips out.
It is here and not in the general thread, because yeah, does the US need China?

Posted by: C | Nov 17 2023 19:44 utc | 565

“Anyone watching the shitshow developing in Myanmar right now?
Coordinated attack on the government military forces by multiple rebel groups.
How co-incidental …”
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 6:48 utc | 241
Sorry, this kind of thing has been happening pretty frequuently since independence in 1948. The ethnic rebels are more organized than usual, that’s all.
I suppose some foreigners are hoping China will invade, and provide an excuse for a proxy war for the USA, but I think it unlikely.

Posted by: lester | Nov 17 2023 19:57 utc | 567

So in China you have a vibrant market economy, but capital does not rise above political authority. Capital does not have enshrined rights. In America capital, the interest of capital and capital itself, has risen above the American nation. The political authority cannot check the power of capital. And that’s why America is a capitalist country, but China is not.
annotated with character.har development of “heaven” over um millennia.
Posted by: snl2002 | Nov 17 2023 13:25 utc | 266
…………………………..
Thank you. Great quote. If true – which I have no way of verifying – then it is indeed a great leap forward
What connects with Heaven in the modern Chinese state? It seems from Xi’s speeches that they have taken Ren / Humanity / Man as their guiding principle tapping into their cultural roots to do so. Man is said ‘to join Heaven and Earth’. Heaven us universal, unchanging, formless, brilliant and Great / Expansive, spanning all pettiness and parochiality, The One; Earth is particular, local, ever-changing, of forms, ever-arising and fertile, sustaining, dense, The Many.
Man joins these two. But to join them they must be felt. In China the oft-cited sense that they are a continuous People for 5,000 years provides a sense of Heaven being present throughout Society, Earth. So maybe the emphasis on Man is a good one.
However the ruling Party’s fear of organized religion which they insist on having control over (for example secular communist officials now choose Tibetan high lamas and determine where they live) suggests to me that they want to pick and choose Heaven in accordance with their political Party’s prerogatives which is not so much Man joining Heaven and Earth’ as Man controlling Heaven and Earth.
This is uncomfortably similar to Judaism in that this world is what matters, figuratively and literally, wherein Man makes God/Heaven in his own image. This sort of approach fears the sacred and worships order under its own control. It may work well for a while, especially on the material level, but is unlikely to engender a high culture or civilization.
It is truly excellent that they not permit the Merchant Class to rule. But it is not necessarily ideal to let the (also middle) Managerial Class do so either. Makes for a culture with vast strength and wealth perhaps, but a low cultural ceiling.
I hope this view is mistaken, but the signs are there….

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 17 2023 20:16 utc | 569

There has also been quite a bit of discussions/debates here at the bar on communism/capitalism characteristics of today’s China. That is another time waster mental exercise. China has no interest in fitting itself into a Communist Mode, nor does it want to fit into a Capitalist Mode. For real, I don’t think anyone here at the bar can precisely define what exactly is Communistic or Capitalistic.
The truth of the matter is that, since taking reign of the country in 1949 with the broad notion of socialistic/communistic ideal, Mao’s administration tried to reform the social protocols of a very backward China hardly able to even adequately feed itself. They adopted communistic measures as propagated in Marx/Engels writings and used USSR as model. All the while they had to also fend off the monster of USA Empire, militarily threatening and economically sanctioning. Time was hard! Allocation of resources was problematic. Technology and machinery were backward and scarce! China was in much worse shape than India or Cuba, for example.
By the late 1950’s, China’s leadership came to realize that reward incentive, or the lack of which in a communist regime of administration, was an issue, big time! In early 60’s amidst a famine, there was a debate at the top. Mao conceded the negative aspects of communism. He agreed to hand over administrative authority to Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping. Liu and Deng tried to introduce some reward incentives in commerce and foodstuff productions. For these they were later accused of being Revisionists. Then came Cultural Revolution.
In late 70’s, China’s top leadership was very concerned about China’s poverty and backwardness. Deng was restored as the core of the Party leadership and he wanted to give “incentive” another trial. Two of his followers, Zhao Ziyang and Wan Li, were party secretaries of Guanxi and Anhui Provinces where they introduced the policy of “contracted production of food at family level”. The policy was to allow farmers to contract for use of the land for a set amount of crops/produces and allowed them to keep the any accesses from that for their own to consume or sell. For the next three years, each of these two provinces saw food production increased by 20% each year, and the beginning of thriving retail markets. Deng made use of these statistics to convince his colleagues on the Standing Committee of the Politburo to push the idea nationwide. On top of that, the idea of incentive was broadened to experiment with the idea of foreign investments in selected trial locations. Well, there was two thriving bastions of Capitalism nearby: Hong Kong and Taiwan, and they spoke the same language as well eat the same types of food. These fellow Chinese Capitalists came in swarms. The rest is history.
So, is China communists or capitalist??? I think China is just Chinese! Hell with Communist/Capitalist labels.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 20:23 utc | 571

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 20:23 utc | 286
So, is China communists or capitalist??? I think China is just Chinese! Hell with Communist/Capitalist labels.

Thanks for that great recap.
The labels ‘communism’ and ‘capitalism’ don’t really work anywhere anymore except as general principles. Even when they did have more explanatory power (well over a century ago), they were always oversimplifications tending to constrain reality into far too narrow a bandwidth. Nevertheless, if it can be said that the West followed the capitalist path and both Russia and China followed the communist one, clearly both fell far short though the West is yet to hit bottom and the East is now rising again having learned a hard lesson.
I think calling China ‘Chinese’ might indeed be as good as it gets. But not all Chinas are the same. Like any society they can go through up and down periods. I was reading a short paper about the Mandarins’ Maritime Ban in the mid 1400’s. The idea was to return to correct Chinese culture after too much Mongol mayhem. But although maritime trade with foreign countries was outlawed, it didn’t stop, rather spawned rampant piracy which plagued most of coastal China (where most lived) for over a century. Soon the Mandarins were all on the take because the Black Market economy was actually still the main real economy despite their diktat otherwise. Their policies, in other words, didn’t fit reality and engendered a badly led China with hundreds of millions of desperately poor people, and which became prey to rising predatory powers.
It will take a century or more to evaluate the PRC Dynasty.

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 17 2023 20:57 utc | 573

@Scorpion, #287:
While I’m still at the bar nursing my bourbon on the rock, let me thank you for your reply :-).
A century to evaluate PRC dynasty? They are already 75 years old. By the way it’s not a dynasty. It’s gonna be a way of nationhood from here onto infinity.
Is USA a Dynasty? If so when WOULD THAT THING END? Is the Tudor kingdom a Dynasty? Or has the Tudor Dynasty ended already???

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 21:09 utc | 575

Calling out the social racism below
”
It is truly excellent that they not permit the Merchant Class to rule. But it is not necessarily ideal to let the (also middle) Managerial Class do so either. Makes for a culture with vast strength and wealth perhaps, but a low cultural ceiling.
I hope this view is mistaken, but the signs are there….
Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 17 2023 20:16 utc | 285
”
What is a “low cultural ceiling” Scorpion?
Your elitist scree is sickening

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 17 2023 21:11 utc | 577

Ernie and Bert from sesame street saying the US invited China to America because the US has run out of money. 11 mins in the video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mqrwwR5dDQI
All the gold standard, fixed exchange rate myths lined up in a row like ducks, that have been comprehensively debunked on Moon of Alabama non Ukraine threads.
It is unbelievable really how dumb they are. At least I can understand now where these myths originated from. Ernie and Bert are going to trap themselves in the neocon world as they view a new Multi polar world. They run head first right into them. Support the neoconservative money story.
Unbelievable how they can state these myths as facts without ever looking at how things really work in the real world.
With pictures for Ernie and Bert. Maybe crayons will work but I very much doubt it as they can’t even understand a balance sheet.
DIAGRAMS & DOLLARS: modern money illustrated (Part 1)
https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/01/diagrams-dollars-modern-money-illustrated-part-1.html
DIAGRAMS & DOLLARS: modern money illustrated (Part 2)
https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/01/diagrams-dollars-modern-money-illustrated-part-2.html

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 17 2023 21:23 utc | 579

For Ernie and Bert,
How can you buy a US treasury – What they call government borrowing ( to deliberately make the ideologue and idiot think of a household) that by law can only be bought using $’s ?
If
1. No $’s had ever been ISSUED by the US government over the last 700 years ( government spending has been zero).
2. No banks ISSUED state money ( The $) when they lend and they didn’t lend out $’s in the last 700 years. Lending state money had been zero.
It’s not a trick question.
How can you pay your taxes – What they call funding the government ( to deliberately make an ideologue and idiot think of a household) that by law can only be redeemed using $’s.
If
1. No $’s had ever been ISSUED by the US government over the last 700 years ( government spending has been zero).
2. No banks ISSUED state money ( The $) when they lend and they didn’t lend out $’s in the last 700 years. Bank lending has been zero.
Not that many go to the bank to take a loan out to pay their taxes anyway.
It’s not a trick question.
Answer “you can’t” to both of those questions and finally the world has moved on to a more realistic reality. Until then the doomsday clock will move closer to midnight as each year passes. Regardless of who is a dictator or not.
It’s very simple, taxes can’t be paid and US treasuries can’t be bought unless $’s ( state money) has been either spent or lent into existence first.
You can’t COLLECT unless it has been ISSUED first. See Oxford dictionary for details.
You can’t buy US treasuries without earning $’s first.
So who is actually funding who ? Can somebody phone the Duran boys and tell them before they become a laughing stock.
For Ernie and Burt,
How can you buy a US treasury – What they call government borrowing ( to deliberately make the ideologue and idiot think of a household) that by law can only be bought using $’s ?
If
1. No $’s had ever been ISSUED by the US government over the last 700 years ( government spending has been zero).
2. No banks ISSUED state money ( The $) when they lend and they didn’t lend out $’s in the last 700 years. Lending state money had been zero.
It’s not a trick question.
How can you pay your taxes – What they call funding the government ( to deliberately make an ideologue and idiot think of a household) that by law can only be redeemed using $’s.
If
1. No $’s had ever been ISSUED by the US government over the last 700 years ( government spending has been zero).
2. No banks ISSUED state money ( The $) when they lend and they didn’t lend out $’s in the last 700 years. Bank lending has been zero.
Not that many go to the bank to take a loan out to pay their taxes anyway.
It’s not a trick question.
Answer “you can’t” to both of those questions and finally the world has moved on to a more realistic reality. Until then the doomsday clock will move closer to midnight as each year passes. Regardless of who is a dictator or not.
It’s very simple, taxes can’t be paid and US treasuries can’t be bought unless $’s ( state money) has been either spent or lent into existence first.
You can’t COLLECT unless it has been ISSUED first. See Oxford dictionary for details.
You can’t buy US treasuries without earning $’s first.
So who is actually funding who ?
Can somebody phone the Duran boys and tell them before they become a laughing stock.
Deficit spending 101 – Part 1
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=332
Deficit spending 101 – Part 2
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=352
Deficit spending 101 – Part 3
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=381
Ernie and Bert better learn to walk before they can run
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=7864

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 17 2023 21:32 utc | 581

Do you think Ernie and Bert will understand this ?
https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=7864
I very much doubt it.
” China was invited to the US because the US ran out of money”
Ernie and Bert are bat shit crazy, I can’t believe I am actually typing it. I’m done with the two of them. They are a pair of very dangerous fools. People believe this shit and why time and time again this crap gets brought up in here.
GROUPTHINK no better example of GROUPTHINK than these pair of fools. For the love of Christ !

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 17 2023 21:44 utc | 583

Another speech by Xi the Merciless , written, released today, to tickle to death our barflies already in spasms.
“Meeting Challenges with Unity of Purpose
To Write a New Chapter for Asia-Pacific Cooperation”
https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202311/t20231117_11182049.html
What fresh torture and Chinese burns will some of our already suffering fellow denizens have to suffer ?
“Over the past three decades, the Asia-Pacific has cut its average tariff rate from 17 percent to 5 percent, and contributed 70 percent of global economic growth.”
What a rotter!
“Over the past three decades, per capita income in the Asia-Pacific has more than quadrupled, and one billion people have been lifted out of poverty. This is an important contribution to human progress and global sustainable development.”
Has he no shame!
“The world has entered a new period of turbulence and change. The momentum of world economic growth is sluggish. Destabilizing, uncertain and unpredictable factors are increasing. ”
Now that’s more like it! Ha ha.
“San Francisco, where the United Nations Charter was signed, embodies the noble aspiration of all peoples for peace across the world.”
Ha – flower power man, what a loser, ha ha. Give us more begging you hippy !
“We should jointly improve global governance of science and technology, bolster support for green and digital transition and sustainable development through innovation, and build an open, fair, just and non-discriminatory environment for the development of science and technology.”
That’s the ticket – come on you who barflies who have been trying to tell the rest of us about the Big L that is Xi’s China , get ready for a lap of honour. Sounds like he’s ready to slit his wrists. Here he goes.
“Friends, “”
Yes , yes. YES …. Beg for it you dictator.
“This year, China’s economy has been steadily recovering and turning for the better. Its growth rate is among the highest among major economies of the world. And solid gains have been made in our pursuit of high-quality development. China remains the most powerful engine of global growth, and will generate one-third of global growth this year. ”
Oh. Wtf ?
“China enjoys distinct strengths such as a socialist market economy in systemic terms, a supersize market in terms of demand, a full-fledged industrial system in terms of supply, and abundant, high-caliber labor forces and entrepreneurs in terms of human resources. China’s economic development is self-generative, resilient and has many potentials.”
No , no , no no nooooooo.
“China is committed to applying the new development philosophy with a focus on achieving innovative, coordinated, green and open development for all, and it is pursuing high-quality development and high value-added and green economic growth. Recent years have seen rapid growth in  China’s export of “the new three,” namely, new energy vehicles, lithium-ion batteries and photovoltaic products.”
New three!!! Shut up shut up not listening, got fingers in ears.
“No matter how the international situation evolves, China’s resolve to foster a market-oriented, law-based and world-class business environment will not change. And our policy of providing equal and quality services to foreign investors will not change. We will continue to improve the mechanisms for protecting the rights and interests of foreign investors, further shorten the negative list on foreign investment, fully ensure national treatment for foreign investors, and continue to strengthen IPR protection.”
😩 😩 😫 😭
“I hope that you will make full use of your entrepreneurship, and contribute even more to building an open Asia-Pacific economy and boosting global economic development. I also hope to see an active part of the global business community in the Chinese modernization drive to benefit from the huge opportunities brought by China’s high-quality development!
Thank you.”
Stop it stop it stop it you you rotter !!
😭 😭 😭
Ah , there there chaps I’m sure he doesn’t really mean it , here have a dry hanky, let me get you a new bottle, bar keep a bottle of your best rot guy for our …distraught friends here.
As for the rest of us , how about a round for the great dictator?
👏 👏 👏👏👏 there’s more in that speech including something about a voluntary green thingamagik that I need to get a bit more information about.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 17 2023 22:05 utc | 585

Anyone watching the shitshow developing in Myanmar right now?
Coordinated attack on the government military forces by multiple rebel groups.
How co-incidental …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 17 2023 6:48 utc | 241

Apologies if I post incorrectly. I’m a long time lurker but this is my first post. I am surprised no one else has flagged up China’s involvement in Myanmar, in particular to the 3 brotherhood alliance.
This article covers some of it (you’ll have to read to the bottom):
https://asiatimes.com/2023/11/myanmars-military-junta-in-death-spiral-decline/

Posted by: Wee_Scot | Nov 17 2023 22:17 utc | 587

Ernie and Bert think America is Greece. That’s what’s wrong with them.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=APPBqwjgyO8&pp=ygUUV2FycmVuIG1vc2xlciBncmVlY2U%3D
They fail to recognise the HUGE difference so apply Apple’s to oranges. Refuse to learn.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 17 2023 22:18 utc | 589

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 21:09 utc | 288
A century to evaluate PRC dynasty? They are already 75 years old. By the way it’s not a dynasty. It’s gonna be a way of nationhood from here onto infinity.

I was being playful of course. But on the other hand, it’s kinda-sorta like a dynasty with Presidents instead of Emperors. I do think it will take a least another century before the results are in. Modernization kicked in around the 70’s, no? And is now enjoying widespread fruition. Maybe Phase One is over in that there are no more very poor people and nearly every town (though not every rural village?) has electricity and plumbing. But what happens next? Are they going to create the 21st century equivalent of the Tang Dynasty? Will a high culture gradually emerge? It is too soon to say though once the initial infrastructural boom period is over – like in 1970s US – then there will be a new test: are the current principles and practices during this growth phase sufficiently grounded in bedrock reality to also inform the next phase?
That time is probably still a few decades away since first China must complete reconnecting with the RoW, especially Russia to West and North and Arabia-Persia to West and South. This will involve more geopolitical tectonics – now well underway. So multipolarity also means the re-emergence of China as the Central Kingdom – which will herald in yet another test.
I like Xi’s and Putin’s speeches, though I find both hard to read through to the end. They are managerial, boring and relentlessly utopianesque. I distrust such messaging even though I agree with most of it on some level.

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 17 2023 22:26 utc | 591

@Scorpion, #296:

…Modernization kicked in around the 70’s, no?…

No! Modernization kicked in right after Mao took reign of governance. His slogan in the early 50’s was “Overtake England and catch America”. That slogan was blasted domestically and internationally ad nauseum! It was full steam, under USSR industrial assistance, during and after the Korean War, until USSR pulled out in late 50’s. But China’s own effort continued unstopped. Of course, without USSR assistance, progress was slower for quite a while until after the Cultural Revolution and Deng opened up. By the way, the modernization effort was to put emphasis on heavy industry first, thus at the expense of consumer goods production, and partly explained the poor livelihood of Chinese in 50’s and 60’s.
What the west mistook as modernization was actually China introducing “incentive” approach to consumer production starting in the early 80’s until….., well, until still going on.
There is a lot of misreading and misunderstanding of China in the west, mostly due to western analysts and commentators themselves not understanding China well enough. To be honest, the scholars of China studies in the west are really of low caliber and still are.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 22:45 utc | 593

@Wee_Scot, #294:
The Myanmar Junta is sheltering a huge cabal of schemers/cheaters/smugglers of ethnic Chinese, who speak Chinese and know the social norms of Chinese society well. Target victims are fellow Chinese, period. These criminals are also very cruel, kidnaping and slaving Chinese travelers/job-seekers. China has issued arrest warrants on 4 notorious crime families who are closely associated with the Junta. There have been thousands of victims enslaved (by the way, victims include people from Taiwan, since the language is common across the Strait) over the past few years, and perhaps millions of victims cheated through phone call scams.
Yes, the Junta is going down the drain, rightfully so!

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 17 2023 23:00 utc | 595

Scorpion | Nov 17 2023 22:26 utc | 296 ” They are managerial, boring and relentlessly utopianesque.”
Anything said publicly by the likes of Russia and China uses the language of diplomacy, which for those of us not fluent in that language, requires a translator. Crooke, being an ex diplomat is very good at translating diplomatic language into layman’s language.
We have seen the difference in Medvedev since leaving a decision maker position to take up an advisory position. Now he no longer needs to use the language of diplomacy.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 17 2023 23:07 utc | 597

Having had to cope with the irresponsibly unhinged Boris as well as variably demented Biden (there’s a limit to what modern medicines can do) just think how much Blinken must envy Hillary, who in the same job had neither problem.

Posted by: Cynic | Nov 17 2023 23:08 utc | 599