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November 16, 2023
And Then Biden Blew It … Again

In June U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken was on a long desired trip to China. Just 24 hours after a somewhat positive statement of the meeting came out Biden blew it by calling Xi Jinping a 'dictator'.

The Chinese government was not amused:

China's foreign ministry spokeswoman Mao Ning called Mr Biden's remarks "extremely absurd and irresponsible". Speaking at a regularly scheduled press conference on Wednesday, she said that the comments were "an open political provocation" that violated diplomatic etiquette.

Yesterday President Xi Jinping of China met U.S. President Joe Biden near San Francisco.

The Chinese spokesperson had set out the agenda:

Hua Chunying 华春莹 @SpokespersonCHN – 11:25 UTC · Nov 16, 2023

President Xi Jinping noted that there are two options for China and the U.S. in the era of global transformations unseen in a century: One is to enhance solidarity and cooperation and join hands to meet global challenges and promote global security and prosperity; …
… and the other is to cling to the zero-sum mentality, provoke rivalry and confrontation, and drive the world toward turmoil and division. The two choices point to two different directions that will decide the future of humanity and Planet Earth.

Xi wanted to chose the first path. But shortly after their meeting Biden walked on the second.

He again blew it:

Remarks by President Biden in a Press Conference | Woodside, CA – Nov 16, 2023 – White House

Q And, Mr. President, after today, would you still refer to President Xi as a “dictator”? This is a term that you used earlier this year.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, look, he is. I mean, he’s a dictator in the sense that he — he is a guy who runs a country that — it’s a communist country that is based on a form of government totally different than ours.

Anyway, we made progress.

The Chinese view certainly differs.

The Democracy Perception Index (pdf) is the world’s largest annual study on how people perceive democracy. In the U.S. 76% believe that 'democracy is important' but only 54% answer yes when asked if their country is democratic. In China the agreeing percentages for the same questions are 88% and 73%.

Posted by b on November 16, 2023 at 13:55 UTC | Permalink
Comments

But Xi’s speech on a latter event is interesting
Posted by: newbie | Nov 16 2023 18:43 utc | 112
Yes, it is. Xi explicitly confirms what conditions state.gov needed to satisfy in order to accept a meeting Dumbass Joe—following a parade of Senate delegations to Beijing, waiving “axis of evil” ultimatums.
Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Wang Wenbin’s Regular Press Conference on October 30, 2023

AFP: China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi recently said that the preparation work for the meeting between President Xi Jinping and President Biden cannot be left to autopilot. What conditions need to be met to confirm the meeting?
[…]
Wang Yi said, looking back at the twits and turns in the course of China-US relations since the beginning of this year, the experience is worth summarizing and the lessons need to be drawn. The key is to follow the “five musts”. The two sides must follow the common understandings reached by the two heads of state; must stabilize bilateral relations; must keep communication channels open; must properly manage differences, disputes and frictions; and must promote mutually beneficial cooperation. Wang Yi stressed, to stabilize and improve China-US relations, the two sides should also have objective understandings of each other’s strategic intentions, correctly view the competitive factors in the exchanges between China and the US, and define the concept of national security.
[…]

China’s agenda
First, jointly developing a right perception….
Second, jointly managing disagreements effectively….
Third, jointly advancing mutually beneficial cooperation….
Fourth, jointly shouldering responsibilities as major countries….
Fifth, jointly promoting people-to-people exchanges….

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 16 2023 20:17 utc | 301

But Xi’s speech on a latter event is interesting
Posted by: newbie | Nov 16 2023 18:43 utc | 112
Yes, it is. Xi explicitly confirms what conditions state.gov needed to satisfy in order to accept a meeting Dumbass Joe—following a parade of Senate delegations to Beijing, waiving “axis of evil” ultimatums.
Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Wang Wenbin’s Regular Press Conference on October 30, 2023

AFP: China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi recently said that the preparation work for the meeting between President Xi Jinping and President Biden cannot be left to autopilot. What conditions need to be met to confirm the meeting?
[…]
Wang Yi said, looking back at the twits and turns in the course of China-US relations since the beginning of this year, the experience is worth summarizing and the lessons need to be drawn. The key is to follow the “five musts”. The two sides must follow the common understandings reached by the two heads of state; must stabilize bilateral relations; must keep communication channels open; must properly manage differences, disputes and frictions; and must promote mutually beneficial cooperation. Wang Yi stressed, to stabilize and improve China-US relations, the two sides should also have objective understandings of each other’s strategic intentions, correctly view the competitive factors in the exchanges between China and the US, and define the concept of national security.
[…]

China’s agenda
First, jointly developing a right perception….
Second, jointly managing disagreements effectively….
Third, jointly advancing mutually beneficial cooperation….
Fourth, jointly shouldering responsibilities as major countries….
Fifth, jointly promoting people-to-people exchanges….

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 16 2023 20:17 utc | 302

Biden: “What I’ve said since I’ve become president, what every previous president of late has said, that we maintain the agreement that there is a one-China policy and that I’m not going to change that.”
That would be which China, Joe, the Republic of China (Taiwan) which the US sends weapons to, or the People’s Republic China (Beijing) which is run by a dictator (Joe says).

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 20:19 utc | 303

Biden: “What I’ve said since I’ve become president, what every previous president of late has said, that we maintain the agreement that there is a one-China policy and that I’m not going to change that.”
That would be which China, Joe, the Republic of China (Taiwan) which the US sends weapons to, or the People’s Republic China (Beijing) which is run by a dictator (Joe says).

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 20:19 utc | 304

“..Well it remains to be seen if that is what they are doing. Reminds me of Zhou EnLai’s quote on the French Revolution: too soon to tell.” Ahenobarbus@124
No argument there- green is the tree of life.
As to Chou, at the risk of being pedantic, I believe that Chou was actually quoting Arnold Toynbee who, according to Wikipedia (sometimes a great notion), died at the age of the 30 oppressed by the heretical nature of Henry George’s Progress and Poverty. He also had meningitis.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 16 2023 19:28 utc | 136
Yes, I know the comment was misinterpreted initially, but the misinterpretation actually was more interesting and timeless than whatever he intended to say.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Nov 16 2023 20:31 utc | 305

“..Well it remains to be seen if that is what they are doing. Reminds me of Zhou EnLai’s quote on the French Revolution: too soon to tell.” Ahenobarbus@124
No argument there- green is the tree of life.
As to Chou, at the risk of being pedantic, I believe that Chou was actually quoting Arnold Toynbee who, according to Wikipedia (sometimes a great notion), died at the age of the 30 oppressed by the heretical nature of Henry George’s Progress and Poverty. He also had meningitis.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 16 2023 19:28 utc | 136
Yes, I know the comment was misinterpreted initially, but the misinterpretation actually was more interesting and timeless than whatever he intended to say.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Nov 16 2023 20:31 utc | 306

Dear Bernhard
As spot on as you are regarding the US the wrong you are about China. It is almost comical that you really believe some poll out of China. Mind you China is a country that welded the doors shut of whole highrises if there was somebody with Covid. Last December one such highrise caught fire and the people couldn´t escape. The news of that travelled around China and millions turned out as they finally had had enough. Nobody though dared to shout any slogan or – god forbid – show any plackard. All they did was show white sheats of paper. (White is the color of death in China). This is not some internet meme that is real. I have friends in China who witnessed that. In Beijing you can´t even use toilet paper if you don´t show your face. (There´s ce recognition everywhere in China) Only after identification the paper will come out. Do you really believe people will tell pollsters what they think?
Whatever .. you are doing great work. But the enemy of my enemy isn´t always my friend… And if the US has become the caricature of a democracy it doesn´t mean that China is any better….

Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 307

Dear Bernhard
As spot on as you are regarding the US the wrong you are about China. It is almost comical that you really believe some poll out of China. Mind you China is a country that welded the doors shut of whole highrises if there was somebody with Covid. Last December one such highrise caught fire and the people couldn´t escape. The news of that travelled around China and millions turned out as they finally had had enough. Nobody though dared to shout any slogan or – god forbid – show any plackard. All they did was show white sheats of paper. (White is the color of death in China). This is not some internet meme that is real. I have friends in China who witnessed that. In Beijing you can´t even use toilet paper if you don´t show your face. (There´s ce recognition everywhere in China) Only after identification the paper will come out. Do you really believe people will tell pollsters what they think?
Whatever .. you are doing great work. But the enemy of my enemy isn´t always my friend… And if the US has become the caricature of a democracy it doesn´t mean that China is any better….

Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 308

Last December one such highrise caught fire and the people couldn´t escape.
Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 151
Reminds me of the Grenfell tragedy and what happens in those bastions of democracy like Britain and the U.S.
When it happens in the West it’s an unfortunate tragedy.
When it happens in China it’s a deliberate plot by the CCP!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 16 2023 20:39 utc | 309

Last December one such highrise caught fire and the people couldn´t escape.
Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 151
Reminds me of the Grenfell tragedy and what happens in those bastions of democracy like Britain and the U.S.
When it happens in the West it’s an unfortunate tragedy.
When it happens in China it’s a deliberate plot by the CCP!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 16 2023 20:39 utc | 310

Of course you also have the the Russian rouble get out clause.
Pure GENIUS if you ask me. Russia’s understanding has come along way since 1997. For those interest payments on the debt will get too big ideologues and idiots. How they got around holding foreign debt.
https://new-wayland.com/blog/rouble-get-out-clause/
At which point an ideologue or an idiot thinking that the Russian government is like a household will say ” what happens if they run out of roubles”
At which point I’m afraid, you just have to step back 3 paces and hit them in the face with a baseball bat. Their ignorance deserves it. As they can’t even look up the word ISSUE in the Oxford dictionary.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 16 2023 20:40 utc | 311

Of course you also have the the Russian rouble get out clause.
Pure GENIUS if you ask me. Russia’s understanding has come along way since 1997. For those interest payments on the debt will get too big ideologues and idiots. How they got around holding foreign debt.
https://new-wayland.com/blog/rouble-get-out-clause/
At which point an ideologue or an idiot thinking that the Russian government is like a household will say ” what happens if they run out of roubles”
At which point I’m afraid, you just have to step back 3 paces and hit them in the face with a baseball bat. Their ignorance deserves it. As they can’t even look up the word ISSUE in the Oxford dictionary.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Nov 16 2023 20:40 utc | 312

Robinhood @ 6 – That is the first time I’ve known anyone point out that by calling Xi a dictator and expressing a willingness to deal with him, Biden was in effect saying he has no problem dealing with dictators. Great point!

Posted by: Pundita | Nov 16 2023 20:44 utc | 313

Robinhood @ 6 – That is the first time I’ve known anyone point out that by calling Xi a dictator and expressing a willingness to deal with him, Biden was in effect saying he has no problem dealing with dictators. Great point!

Posted by: Pundita | Nov 16 2023 20:44 utc | 314

I agree fully that the US state is not now, and never has been, a democracy (although US people themselves harbour fine democratic instincts).
However, one has to be utterly naive to think that most respondents to a survey in China would risk answering truthfully. Most, in fact, do not believe that China is a democracy, and that such a large minority of respondents were willing to deny that Beijing is democratic suggests that there is substantial dissatisfaction and the potential for great upheaval in the country.

Posted by: Tom Bergbusch | Nov 16 2023 20:53 utc | 315

I agree fully that the US state is not now, and never has been, a democracy (although US people themselves harbour fine democratic instincts).
However, one has to be utterly naive to think that most respondents to a survey in China would risk answering truthfully. Most, in fact, do not believe that China is a democracy, and that such a large minority of respondents were willing to deny that Beijing is democratic suggests that there is substantial dissatisfaction and the potential for great upheaval in the country.

Posted by: Tom Bergbusch | Nov 16 2023 20:53 utc | 316

Respondents in a compliance culture will answer study prompts differently respondents in a culture that’s more chaotic and individualistic. Still, Biden is proving to one of the world’s most incompetent leaders.

Posted by: Kevin | Nov 16 2023 20:55 utc | 317

Respondents in a compliance culture will answer study prompts differently respondents in a culture that’s more chaotic and individualistic. Still, Biden is proving to one of the world’s most incompetent leaders.

Posted by: Kevin | Nov 16 2023 20:55 utc | 318

“Dictator” and “autocratic” are code words used by the Neocons to denote countries and their leadership that resist US financial colonization. The Chinese fully understand that “dictator” is in all cases a derogatory term and that our diplomacy is clumsy and amateurish. They also understand that any agreements are at best short term and that the US sees China not as a peer, but a country to conquer.

Posted by: Promptcritical | Nov 16 2023 20:56 utc | 319

“Dictator” and “autocratic” are code words used by the Neocons to denote countries and their leadership that resist US financial colonization. The Chinese fully understand that “dictator” is in all cases a derogatory term and that our diplomacy is clumsy and amateurish. They also understand that any agreements are at best short term and that the US sees China not as a peer, but a country to conquer.

Posted by: Promptcritical | Nov 16 2023 20:56 utc | 320

If the people see that the development of the country is taking a stable direction for the people as a whole, at least in the medium term, a direction which is reasonable in perspective and which also preserves the prospect of prosperity for the next generation, they will consider even an absolute monarchy to be democratic …
Posted by: Humml | Nov 16 2023 19:08 utc | 124
—————————————————————
Perhaps a closer look at China’s more than 4000-year history as a civilization might explain their contented attitude. People from western capitalist countries have a fetish for democratic forms but can’t grasp the idea about democratic content. I think that most Chinese people do.
The best wine in the world, regardless of how fancy the bottle might be, when it is empty is worthless, but a full cup of a good modest wine is always a pleasure regardless of the container, as long as the cup is full.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 20:56 utc | 321

If the people see that the development of the country is taking a stable direction for the people as a whole, at least in the medium term, a direction which is reasonable in perspective and which also preserves the prospect of prosperity for the next generation, they will consider even an absolute monarchy to be democratic …
Posted by: Humml | Nov 16 2023 19:08 utc | 124
—————————————————————
Perhaps a closer look at China’s more than 4000-year history as a civilization might explain their contented attitude. People from western capitalist countries have a fetish for democratic forms but can’t grasp the idea about democratic content. I think that most Chinese people do.
The best wine in the world, regardless of how fancy the bottle might be, when it is empty is worthless, but a full cup of a good modest wine is always a pleasure regardless of the container, as long as the cup is full.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 20:56 utc | 322

Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 151
Why don’t you ask me since I live in China The past 10 years? And that fire happened in MY CITY!
You’re one of those who declare that every sparrow’s death was ordered personally by evil Xi.
Logic please.

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 16 2023 21:05 utc | 323

Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 151
Why don’t you ask me since I live in China The past 10 years? And that fire happened in MY CITY!
You’re one of those who declare that every sparrow’s death was ordered personally by evil Xi.
Logic please.

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 16 2023 21:05 utc | 324

Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 151
—————————————————————–
Tom, you read too much western propaganda and you lack the brain cells to discern the difference between propaganda and facts.
Now consider this: In Gaza today, and for the last month, thousands of US supplied bombs and guided missiles are being launched (and have been launched) by Israel on the Palestinian people who are locked inside a walled fortress designed to keep people inside with no escape (i.e. a prison) and to date over 11,000 people, including over 4000 children and babies, have been murdered. This does not include the 3000 people who are unaccounted for and have probably died from collapsed buildings that used to be their homes, their Mosques, and their hospitals.
Joe Biden supports these Zio Nazis who are committing genocide with arms, money, and
political cover for Israel. Tell me Tom67, who are monsters here?

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 21:21 utc | 325

Posted by: Tom67 | Nov 16 2023 20:32 utc | 151
—————————————————————–
Tom, you read too much western propaganda and you lack the brain cells to discern the difference between propaganda and facts.
Now consider this: In Gaza today, and for the last month, thousands of US supplied bombs and guided missiles are being launched (and have been launched) by Israel on the Palestinian people who are locked inside a walled fortress designed to keep people inside with no escape (i.e. a prison) and to date over 11,000 people, including over 4000 children and babies, have been murdered. This does not include the 3000 people who are unaccounted for and have probably died from collapsed buildings that used to be their homes, their Mosques, and their hospitals.
Joe Biden supports these Zio Nazis who are committing genocide with arms, money, and
political cover for Israel. Tell me Tom67, who are monsters here?

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 21:21 utc | 326

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Nov 16 2023 14:38 utc | 17
What’s your fracking problem? Do you understand English ?

Posted by: RB | Nov 16 2023 21:22 utc | 327

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Nov 16 2023 14:38 utc | 17
What’s your fracking problem? Do you understand English ?

Posted by: RB | Nov 16 2023 21:22 utc | 328

Dear San Fransisco
Can the homeless people and the drug addicts come back now?
Asking for a friend.

Posted by: Spanish Pipedream | Nov 16 2023 21:29 utc | 329

Dear San Fransisco
Can the homeless people and the drug addicts come back now?
Asking for a friend.

Posted by: Spanish Pipedream | Nov 16 2023 21:29 utc | 330

There has to be some sort of a change that caused Xi to go to US to speak directly with whoever runs the US show or their spokesman. Perhaps we will find out what it was one day.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 16 2023 15:32 utc | 34
I posted yesterday in the Palestine thread Ray Dalio’s take on this issue in his latest article but it was deleted – I guess because it was off-topic.
His view is that both countries decided to avoid a destructive for everyone military confrontation, so they have to find a way to continue war without this possibiity. Hence, the open military channels and cooperation where it doesn’t hurt.
This is a quote from the article:

While the competition between the United States and China is constant and will intensify, the risks of military war undulate. Think of them as trending higher with ups and downs around the uptrend. The two great powers were closest to the brink of war and their estimated risks of going over the brink were highest in March, which was when I last visited Beijing. That was after there was the 20th National Congress and big changes in leadership. The realizations by both sides that they were at the brink and the looking over the brink into the abyss scared the leaders on both sides so, starting in June, there were a number of interactions designed to pull back from the brink, including beginning working toward a good APEC meeting between President Biden and President Xi, which will lead to some modest increased cooperation.
While this stepping back from the brink is a great step away from the worst type of war, it is not an end of war. Rather, there is a shifting to a different type of war. The goal of both sides in this new type of war is to win without getting into a bloody, military war.

This does not mean the possibility of hot war is nil, but has been reduced. If so, this is good news in my understanding, since I believe nobody on their right mind wants a hot war between the US and China. This is, moreover, a war that the Empire will lose. More from Dalio:

The Chinese have much more practice and skill in playing this type of game because they have more history that they have derived more continuous learning from. Meanwhile, the United States is doing itself a lot of harm. Of course China has its own set of problems and internal conflicts. This will be a war that will test the relative capabilities of each side’s leaders, systems, and people.

Compare leaders and systems between the countries …

Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Nov 16 2023 21:30 utc | 331

There has to be some sort of a change that caused Xi to go to US to speak directly with whoever runs the US show or their spokesman. Perhaps we will find out what it was one day.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 16 2023 15:32 utc | 34
I posted yesterday in the Palestine thread Ray Dalio’s take on this issue in his latest article but it was deleted – I guess because it was off-topic.
His view is that both countries decided to avoid a destructive for everyone military confrontation, so they have to find a way to continue war without this possibiity. Hence, the open military channels and cooperation where it doesn’t hurt.
This is a quote from the article:

While the competition between the United States and China is constant and will intensify, the risks of military war undulate. Think of them as trending higher with ups and downs around the uptrend. The two great powers were closest to the brink of war and their estimated risks of going over the brink were highest in March, which was when I last visited Beijing. That was after there was the 20th National Congress and big changes in leadership. The realizations by both sides that they were at the brink and the looking over the brink into the abyss scared the leaders on both sides so, starting in June, there were a number of interactions designed to pull back from the brink, including beginning working toward a good APEC meeting between President Biden and President Xi, which will lead to some modest increased cooperation.
While this stepping back from the brink is a great step away from the worst type of war, it is not an end of war. Rather, there is a shifting to a different type of war. The goal of both sides in this new type of war is to win without getting into a bloody, military war.

This does not mean the possibility of hot war is nil, but has been reduced. If so, this is good news in my understanding, since I believe nobody on their right mind wants a hot war between the US and China. This is, moreover, a war that the Empire will lose. More from Dalio:

The Chinese have much more practice and skill in playing this type of game because they have more history that they have derived more continuous learning from. Meanwhile, the United States is doing itself a lot of harm. Of course China has its own set of problems and internal conflicts. This will be a war that will test the relative capabilities of each side’s leaders, systems, and people.

Compare leaders and systems between the countries …

Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Nov 16 2023 21:30 utc | 332

The same Wikipedia article cited by the commenter acknowledges that the Chinese Communist Party can stamp out any opposition that it wants to eliminate.
Posted by: greg | Nov 16 2023 18:44 utc | 114
While this is basically true, it is also true that there are many small rebellions in the provinces. What happens? The local authorities are fired and the grievances are addressed.

Posted by: RB | Nov 16 2023 21:30 utc | 333

The same Wikipedia article cited by the commenter acknowledges that the Chinese Communist Party can stamp out any opposition that it wants to eliminate.
Posted by: greg | Nov 16 2023 18:44 utc | 114
While this is basically true, it is also true that there are many small rebellions in the provinces. What happens? The local authorities are fired and the grievances are addressed.

Posted by: RB | Nov 16 2023 21:30 utc | 334

That’s a no brainer.
Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Nov 16 2023 19:20 utc | 134
Thankfully Chinese authorities are much much smarter than you.

Posted by: RB | Nov 16 2023 21:41 utc | 335

That’s a no brainer.
Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Nov 16 2023 19:20 utc | 134
Thankfully Chinese authorities are much much smarter than you.

Posted by: RB | Nov 16 2023 21:41 utc | 336

@Posted by: greg | Nov 16 2023 18:10 utc | 104
US oligarchs favor “democracy” as a sham that they are able to manipulate.
For sure.
That explains the contradiction – having imperialists invading countries all the while
claiming that they are protecting and promoting democracy.

Posted by: librul | Nov 16 2023 21:44 utc | 337

@Posted by: greg | Nov 16 2023 18:10 utc | 104
US oligarchs favor “democracy” as a sham that they are able to manipulate.
For sure.
That explains the contradiction – having imperialists invading countries all the while
claiming that they are protecting and promoting democracy.

Posted by: librul | Nov 16 2023 21:44 utc | 338

Democracy is about more than just voter access.
Posted by: ian | Nov 16 2023 18:33 utc | 109
Democracy does not have elections. In Athenian democracy, all public posts (apart of the General and the Treasurer) were cast by lots. Every citizen had the right and obligation to serve publicly, and everyone was a lawmaker. This is democracy, not the sham of voting every X years, which actually turns citizens to passivity and creates a mostly corrupt professional politicians caste. A system the ancient Athenians would call oligarchy.
People say democracy by lots would not work today for our big populations. As if our current system does. A good reading on the subject is Van Reybrouck’s book Against elections – The case for democracy

Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Nov 16 2023 21:48 utc | 339

Democracy is about more than just voter access.
Posted by: ian | Nov 16 2023 18:33 utc | 109
Democracy does not have elections. In Athenian democracy, all public posts (apart of the General and the Treasurer) were cast by lots. Every citizen had the right and obligation to serve publicly, and everyone was a lawmaker. This is democracy, not the sham of voting every X years, which actually turns citizens to passivity and creates a mostly corrupt professional politicians caste. A system the ancient Athenians would call oligarchy.
People say democracy by lots would not work today for our big populations. As if our current system does. A good reading on the subject is Van Reybrouck’s book Against elections – The case for democracy

Posted by: Lathe Biosas | Nov 16 2023 21:48 utc | 340

The Asia Times published an article the other day that suggested the real treason for the Xi visit was to connect with the commercial bigwigs and certainly not Biden. Information on Xi Jinping’s dinner with U.S. CEOs here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 21:51 utc | 341

The Asia Times published an article the other day that suggested the real treason for the Xi visit was to connect with the commercial bigwigs and certainly not Biden. Information on Xi Jinping’s dinner with U.S. CEOs here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 21:51 utc | 342

Lathe Biosas | Nov 16 2023 21:30 utc | 163
Thanks for that. Stepping back from military conflict – I had a bit of a feeling is what the meeting was about. Hopefully, Dalio is right.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 16 2023 21:54 utc | 343

Lathe Biosas | Nov 16 2023 21:30 utc | 163
Thanks for that. Stepping back from military conflict – I had a bit of a feeling is what the meeting was about. Hopefully, Dalio is right.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 16 2023 21:54 utc | 344

“Trust” is the only issue right now between these long standing strategic partners.
Posted by: robinthehood | Nov 16 2023 17:08 utc | 77
Trust, you meant “trust”? ROTFL
Since when is it possible to trust any white man word? Ask the Amerindians and their expression of the forked tongue. The yankees will expect that the other party will keep his word when themselves do not care at all. The yankees will try everything to destabilize China: Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Taiwan, countries of Central Asia and what else (military bio-labs for instance).
Trust is NOT an issue.
My guess is that the Chinese know it.
The yankeland is losing its hegemony (dedollarisation, BRICS, Ukraine, etc.) and they can do little about it unless they start a nuclear war which would be the end of the country, while Asia will survive.
They can do nothing especially with man with Alzheimer and Parkinson. I look forward to any debate for the president election next November.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 16 2023 21:55 utc | 345

“Trust” is the only issue right now between these long standing strategic partners.
Posted by: robinthehood | Nov 16 2023 17:08 utc | 77
Trust, you meant “trust”? ROTFL
Since when is it possible to trust any white man word? Ask the Amerindians and their expression of the forked tongue. The yankees will expect that the other party will keep his word when themselves do not care at all. The yankees will try everything to destabilize China: Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Taiwan, countries of Central Asia and what else (military bio-labs for instance).
Trust is NOT an issue.
My guess is that the Chinese know it.
The yankeland is losing its hegemony (dedollarisation, BRICS, Ukraine, etc.) and they can do little about it unless they start a nuclear war which would be the end of the country, while Asia will survive.
They can do nothing especially with man with Alzheimer and Parkinson. I look forward to any debate for the president election next November.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 16 2023 21:55 utc | 346

maybe idiot Biden is just jealous of Xi and wishes he could be as he prejudicially thinks Xi is.Instinctively responding without thinking too much …not good.
Am I correct to think last time Xi visited ….with Trump for afternoon tea and cake.. Trump was sending off massed cruise missiles to Syria.?

Posted by: Jo | Nov 16 2023 21:57 utc | 347

maybe idiot Biden is just jealous of Xi and wishes he could be as he prejudicially thinks Xi is.Instinctively responding without thinking too much …not good.
Am I correct to think last time Xi visited ….with Trump for afternoon tea and cake.. Trump was sending off massed cruise missiles to Syria.?

Posted by: Jo | Nov 16 2023 21:57 utc | 348

Democracy in US parlance is “elections” — nothing more. Certainly not that the citizens can get involved in governing, through their representatives, who actually now that they are elected can do what their funds providers order done, citizens be damned. And then we have dictatorial presidents who start wars, destroy utility lines, and sanction half the world.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 21:58 utc | 349

Democracy in US parlance is “elections” — nothing more. Certainly not that the citizens can get involved in governing, through their representatives, who actually now that they are elected can do what their funds providers order done, citizens be damned. And then we have dictatorial presidents who start wars, destroy utility lines, and sanction half the world.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 21:58 utc | 350

I once sat in a restaurant next to a visitor from China. A mixed group, we were all together for Thanksgiving Dinner.
He hadn’t met me before this, his English was quite good. I was taken aback when he quietly
asked me if I was from “the government”. He thought I was there to monitor him (haha).
…come to think of it now…
I have been told that when I wear my classic trench coat I look like FBI.

Posted by: librul | Nov 16 2023 21:59 utc | 351

I once sat in a restaurant next to a visitor from China. A mixed group, we were all together for Thanksgiving Dinner.
He hadn’t met me before this, his English was quite good. I was taken aback when he quietly
asked me if I was from “the government”. He thought I was there to monitor him (haha).
…come to think of it now…
I have been told that when I wear my classic trench coat I look like FBI.

Posted by: librul | Nov 16 2023 21:59 utc | 352

“The same Wikipedia article cited by the commenter acknowledges that the Chinese Communist Party can stamp out any opposition that it wants to eliminate.”
And is the ‘Murican GloboZioHomo Uniparty any different?
Far too often I read ‘Murican pundit comments about how awful country A, h, or Z is to their citizens, the offence described, and I find myself substituting country A, h, or Z with “U$A”.

Posted by: Mann Friedmann | Nov 16 2023 22:07 utc | 353

“The same Wikipedia article cited by the commenter acknowledges that the Chinese Communist Party can stamp out any opposition that it wants to eliminate.”
And is the ‘Murican GloboZioHomo Uniparty any different?
Far too often I read ‘Murican pundit comments about how awful country A, h, or Z is to their citizens, the offence described, and I find myself substituting country A, h, or Z with “U$A”.

Posted by: Mann Friedmann | Nov 16 2023 22:07 utc | 354

Journalist Patrick Lawrence once correctly referred to Joe Biden as “Obama’s dummy VP”

Posted by: nwwoods | Nov 16 2023 22:09 utc | 355

Journalist Patrick Lawrence once correctly referred to Joe Biden as “Obama’s dummy VP”

Posted by: nwwoods | Nov 16 2023 22:09 utc | 356

Paul from Norway @ 130, Peter AU 1 @ 138, Xor @ 140, Doctor Eleven @ 143, Too Scents @ 144:
Indeed, Antony Blinken’s behaviour during President Biden’s speeches was much commented on, on social media platforms and by online news commentators. Why Blinken even had to sit closely with Biden was not mentioned but would have been worth commenting on itself – if Biden was not known to have the mental and physical health issues he has, Blinken would have been sitting some distance from him.
In one of the videos at the link below you can see Blinken watching Biden and following every word he says intently. It’s as if he’s waiting for a bomb to go off – which in Biden’s case could have happened any minute.
Antony Blinken Staring at Biden Speaking Goes Viral

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 16 2023 22:09 utc | 357

Paul from Norway @ 130, Peter AU 1 @ 138, Xor @ 140, Doctor Eleven @ 143, Too Scents @ 144:
Indeed, Antony Blinken’s behaviour during President Biden’s speeches was much commented on, on social media platforms and by online news commentators. Why Blinken even had to sit closely with Biden was not mentioned but would have been worth commenting on itself – if Biden was not known to have the mental and physical health issues he has, Blinken would have been sitting some distance from him.
In one of the videos at the link below you can see Blinken watching Biden and following every word he says intently. It’s as if he’s waiting for a bomb to go off – which in Biden’s case could have happened any minute.
Antony Blinken Staring at Biden Speaking Goes Viral

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 16 2023 22:09 utc | 358

Posted by: librul | Nov 16 2023 21:44 utc | 166
————————————————————–
Not just any countries, but democratically elected countries as well. Many, many of them. Example: The Kiev maidan coup in 2014.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 22:10 utc | 359

Posted by: librul | Nov 16 2023 21:44 utc | 166
————————————————————–
Not just any countries, but democratically elected countries as well. Many, many of them. Example: The Kiev maidan coup in 2014.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 22:10 utc | 360

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Nov 16 2023 19:20 utc | 133
XXX
Read DunGronin at 23..The comments given, give a good picture of what is going on.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Nov 16 2023 22:20 utc | 361

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Nov 16 2023 19:20 utc | 133
XXX
Read DunGronin at 23..The comments given, give a good picture of what is going on.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Nov 16 2023 22:20 utc | 362

Posted by: statingtheobvious | Nov 16 2023 18:05 utc | 101
XXXX
Ever since the dictators wife ran off with the doctor… well lets say the man’s ego has been floundering.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Nov 16 2023 22:26 utc | 363

Posted by: statingtheobvious | Nov 16 2023 18:05 utc | 101
XXXX
Ever since the dictators wife ran off with the doctor… well lets say the man’s ego has been floundering.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Nov 16 2023 22:26 utc | 364

People are lookin at this through the lens of their various indoctrinations.
For me it is a hand of poker and the draw has been made. Russia is comfortable on a full house fours up nines, China has landed a straight flush to the ace & amerika who made the stupid error of trying to fill an inside straight has a big pile of shit – not even a pair fer godsakes.
So amerika is tryin’ on what has worked for them in the past when they were undisputed banker/dealer/player on those rare occasions when they had failed to work the stacked deck correctly.
They are bluffin’ like fuck to force the other players to back down, not having the slightest notion of China’s supreme hand. To make matters worse england and europe who are part of the amerikan card sharping rort have already folded, so have no say in this hand any longer.
So amerika continues to bluff threatening to “go the guts” ie put up every last cent, rouble and yuan on the table, yet doesn’t follow through with it because there is something about the steely glint in China’s eyes and the unruffled manner they have taken on whilst bidding which makes amerika hold back.
The next move from amerika is to suggest China is somehow cheating but the hordes of penny-ante spectators standing behind China who have seen China’s hand right from the start makes the cheating claim impossible.
england who has been vociferous in stating that the dealer dealt cards off the bottom of the deck to China & Russia is old, weak & fading fast, looking like they will kark it before the end of the hand.
So amerika tells China their fly is undone in the vain hope China will look down & check giving amerika the opportunity to swap some cards from up their sleeve. No go and amerika is becoming hysterical so in one last attempt to distract China, amerika says “Hey you’re one ugly mother-fucker” to which China laughs and says, “Hehehheh, have you looked in a mirror lately?”.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 16 2023 22:37 utc | 365

People are lookin at this through the lens of their various indoctrinations.
For me it is a hand of poker and the draw has been made. Russia is comfortable on a full house fours up nines, China has landed a straight flush to the ace & amerika who made the stupid error of trying to fill an inside straight has a big pile of shit – not even a pair fer godsakes.
So amerika is tryin’ on what has worked for them in the past when they were undisputed banker/dealer/player on those rare occasions when they had failed to work the stacked deck correctly.
They are bluffin’ like fuck to force the other players to back down, not having the slightest notion of China’s supreme hand. To make matters worse england and europe who are part of the amerikan card sharping rort have already folded, so have no say in this hand any longer.
So amerika continues to bluff threatening to “go the guts” ie put up every last cent, rouble and yuan on the table, yet doesn’t follow through with it because there is something about the steely glint in China’s eyes and the unruffled manner they have taken on whilst bidding which makes amerika hold back.
The next move from amerika is to suggest China is somehow cheating but the hordes of penny-ante spectators standing behind China who have seen China’s hand right from the start makes the cheating claim impossible.
england who has been vociferous in stating that the dealer dealt cards off the bottom of the deck to China & Russia is old, weak & fading fast, looking like they will kark it before the end of the hand.
So amerika tells China their fly is undone in the vain hope China will look down & check giving amerika the opportunity to swap some cards from up their sleeve. No go and amerika is becoming hysterical so in one last attempt to distract China, amerika says “Hey you’re one ugly mother-fucker” to which China laughs and says, “Hehehheh, have you looked in a mirror lately?”.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 16 2023 22:37 utc | 366

The Democracy Perception Index (pdf) is the world’s largest annual study on how people perceive democracy.
This is the funniest thing ever. Only look who is behind this organisation.
The Alliance of Democracies Foundation is a non-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of democracy and free markets across the globe.
Who we are
The Alliance of Democracies Foundation is a non-profit organization founded in 2017 by Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the former NATO Secretary General and former Prime Minister of Denmark.…
The joke is the idea of “democracy” itself. The countries closest to democracy have a government doing what their people want. For instance China and Russia.
No country is democratic. Why? Because the power is first of all economic and financial. It is not political. Elections are a joke too. Once elected the deputies and the government can do what they want. For instance go to war***. Or sanction other countries. Without ever asking the people. Fear is very useful to manipulate the people. All western countries are ploutocratic oligarchies where the new aristocracy leads once and for all.
About the pdf document, it is obvious that it is western propaganda. Perception is the result of massive such propaganda. And if massive propaganda is the key, anyone can be elected like in France. Let’s see if someone with Alzheimer can be reelected next year. And if propaganda is not enough, fraud will help. Like for the two last presidential elections in yankeeland.
*** By the way, Russia did not go to Donbass in 2014-2015 because only 50% of the people agreed. The support was considered not sufficient. Last year, some 70% were agree. We know what happened.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 16 2023 22:38 utc | 367

The Democracy Perception Index (pdf) is the world’s largest annual study on how people perceive democracy.
This is the funniest thing ever. Only look who is behind this organisation.
The Alliance of Democracies Foundation is a non-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of democracy and free markets across the globe.
Who we are
The Alliance of Democracies Foundation is a non-profit organization founded in 2017 by Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the former NATO Secretary General and former Prime Minister of Denmark.…
The joke is the idea of “democracy” itself. The countries closest to democracy have a government doing what their people want. For instance China and Russia.
No country is democratic. Why? Because the power is first of all economic and financial. It is not political. Elections are a joke too. Once elected the deputies and the government can do what they want. For instance go to war***. Or sanction other countries. Without ever asking the people. Fear is very useful to manipulate the people. All western countries are ploutocratic oligarchies where the new aristocracy leads once and for all.
About the pdf document, it is obvious that it is western propaganda. Perception is the result of massive such propaganda. And if massive propaganda is the key, anyone can be elected like in France. Let’s see if someone with Alzheimer can be reelected next year. And if propaganda is not enough, fraud will help. Like for the two last presidential elections in yankeeland.
*** By the way, Russia did not go to Donbass in 2014-2015 because only 50% of the people agreed. The support was considered not sufficient. Last year, some 70% were agree. We know what happened.

Posted by: Naive | Nov 16 2023 22:38 utc | 368

But it’s not a problem at all, the smart, experienced and capable people like Putin and Xi are produced by the evil political systems in Russia and China – and a senile, old man who has never achieved anything in his political career can be president of the wonderful American democracy. The only essential difference in the systems is: in China and Russia the billionaires stand at attention in front of the politicians, in the USA and the rest of the West it is the other way around.

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Nov 16 2023 22:39 utc | 369

But it’s not a problem at all, the smart, experienced and capable people like Putin and Xi are produced by the evil political systems in Russia and China – and a senile, old man who has never achieved anything in his political career can be president of the wonderful American democracy. The only essential difference in the systems is: in China and Russia the billionaires stand at attention in front of the politicians, in the USA and the rest of the West it is the other way around.

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Nov 16 2023 22:39 utc | 370

Who was the tool who asked Biden that question? They had to know it was likely Biden would say something stupid because he can barely think, never mind think several steps ahead. The White House press gang ought to know better than to torpedo relations again after all the work that went into mending them.
Posted by: Mark | Nov 16 2023 20:00 utc | 145
————————————————————-
Mark, the question could have been set up by some people in the Biden Administration with Biden’s approval. Why? Because Biden is terrified that he will be accused by Republicans of going soft on communism. The old fart was for such a long time a part of the cold war and the collapse of the Soviet Union, he knows nothing else.
But it could be more than that, it could be that the private session between the two leaders did not go so well. One thing that is no secret to the political world is that Biden is a mean and vindictive SOB.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 22:39 utc | 371

Who was the tool who asked Biden that question? They had to know it was likely Biden would say something stupid because he can barely think, never mind think several steps ahead. The White House press gang ought to know better than to torpedo relations again after all the work that went into mending them.
Posted by: Mark | Nov 16 2023 20:00 utc | 145
————————————————————-
Mark, the question could have been set up by some people in the Biden Administration with Biden’s approval. Why? Because Biden is terrified that he will be accused by Republicans of going soft on communism. The old fart was for such a long time a part of the cold war and the collapse of the Soviet Union, he knows nothing else.
But it could be more than that, it could be that the private session between the two leaders did not go so well. One thing that is no secret to the political world is that Biden is a mean and vindictive SOB.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 16 2023 22:39 utc | 372

Tom Bergbusch @ 155:

“… However, one has to be utterly naive to think that most respondents to a survey in China would risk answering truthfully. Most, in fact, do not believe that China is a democracy, and that such a large minority of respondents were willing to deny that Beijing is democratic suggests that there is substantial dissatisfaction and the potential for great upheaval in the country.”

Another possibility is that, though many people in China may be dissatisfied with their government – a very common phenomenon in most countries around the world – they may not necessarily favour an abrupt change of government with the possibility of instability and foreign interference (after what China experienced in the early half of the 20th century and especially not after seeing Russia’s experience under President Yeltsin in the 1990s) in Chinese politics and economy, and are prepared to live with the government they have.
According to the Global Happiness Report 2022 published by the Ipsos marketing research firm, most Chinese people seemed satisfied with what they had in 2022 and the trend since 2011 has been for a greater percentage of Chinese each year being happy with their lives.
That most people may not like the way they are living, or the way they see things are going in their country does not necessarily translate into potential for overthrow or revolution, otherwise most current governments in the West would have gone the way of the dodo by now.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 16 2023 22:39 utc | 373

Tom Bergbusch @ 155:

“… However, one has to be utterly naive to think that most respondents to a survey in China would risk answering truthfully. Most, in fact, do not believe that China is a democracy, and that such a large minority of respondents were willing to deny that Beijing is democratic suggests that there is substantial dissatisfaction and the potential for great upheaval in the country.”

Another possibility is that, though many people in China may be dissatisfied with their government – a very common phenomenon in most countries around the world – they may not necessarily favour an abrupt change of government with the possibility of instability and foreign interference (after what China experienced in the early half of the 20th century and especially not after seeing Russia’s experience under President Yeltsin in the 1990s) in Chinese politics and economy, and are prepared to live with the government they have.
According to the Global Happiness Report 2022 published by the Ipsos marketing research firm, most Chinese people seemed satisfied with what they had in 2022 and the trend since 2011 has been for a greater percentage of Chinese each year being happy with their lives.
That most people may not like the way they are living, or the way they see things are going in their country does not necessarily translate into potential for overthrow or revolution, otherwise most current governments in the West would have gone the way of the dodo by now.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Nov 16 2023 22:39 utc | 374

News this morning to me, in the interview/test for US citizenship, one question is whether you have ever been a communist.
Gee, I’m lucky been born American, don’t have to take the test.

Posted by: HelenB | Nov 16 2023 22:42 utc | 375

News this morning to me, in the interview/test for US citizenship, one question is whether you have ever been a communist.
Gee, I’m lucky been born American, don’t have to take the test.

Posted by: HelenB | Nov 16 2023 22:42 utc | 376

China practices a ground up people’s Power that’s also called “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”.
This is how proposals for new laws and amendments must first pass the scrutiny of the People at the ground level before it can go higher.
This is China’s consultative process at work from ground up. This is people’s power to influence state laws.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202311/1301747.shtml

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 16 2023 22:43 utc | 377

China practices a ground up people’s Power that’s also called “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”.
This is how proposals for new laws and amendments must first pass the scrutiny of the People at the ground level before it can go higher.
This is China’s consultative process at work from ground up. This is people’s power to influence state laws.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202311/1301747.shtml

Posted by: Surferket | Nov 16 2023 22:43 utc | 378

@ 176
Why Blinken even had to sit closely with Biden was not mentioned
. .protocol . .to the president’s right, across from the China FM.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 22:53 utc | 379

@ 176
Why Blinken even had to sit closely with Biden was not mentioned
. .protocol . .to the president’s right, across from the China FM.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 16 2023 22:53 utc | 380

Posted by: Skiffer | Nov 16 2023 17:55 utc | 97
I appreciate your thoughtful reply. My impression has always been that the Western side gambled on (corruptible) human nature and the other side on western elites’ corruption. This likely is the underlying analytical support for establishing mutual “trust” between the parties.
West hoped and still maintains the hope that soft power erosion of an “integrated China” is an inevitability. CPC hoped and still maintain the hope that the insatiable greed of western elites remains a reliable check on any threat from that quarter on their position and China’s position and that China will at some near term reach full parity with West. (They are not there yet)
So, assuming Mao and Chou and Richard and Henry did not share a secret Masonic handshake, then what we have here is a very long game of Strategic Chicken that started in 70s. West’s bet is Chinese people will turn via soft power before China reaches a superior technical/military position. CPC’s bet is that China will catch up before the corrosive soft power has dealt a checkmate.
Both, as we see, have a shared interest in continuation of the status quo. West still needs China as a production source. China still needs some critical tech from West. And only God knows how intertwined are the financial fortunes of powerful stakeholders in the global system. None, as they have expressed openly, seek a confrontation. Their only issue is managing perceptions of subordinates: in bureaucracies, in subject citizens, in vassal nations and nominal allies.

Posted by: robinthehood | Nov 16 2023 22:58 utc | 381

Posted by: Skiffer | Nov 16 2023 17:55 utc | 97
I appreciate your thoughtful reply. My impression has always been that the Western side gambled on (corruptible) human nature and the other side on western elites’ corruption. This likely is the underlying analytical support for establishing mutual “trust” between the parties.
West hoped and still maintains the hope that soft power erosion of an “integrated China” is an inevitability. CPC hoped and still maintain the hope that the insatiable greed of western elites remains a reliable check on any threat from that quarter on their position and China’s position and that China will at some near term reach full parity with West. (They are not there yet)
So, assuming Mao and Chou and Richard and Henry did not share a secret Masonic handshake, then what we have here is a very long game of Strategic Chicken that started in 70s. West’s bet is Chinese people will turn via soft power before China reaches a superior technical/military position. CPC’s bet is that China will catch up before the corrosive soft power has dealt a checkmate.
Both, as we see, have a shared interest in continuation of the status quo. West still needs China as a production source. China still needs some critical tech from West. And only God knows how intertwined are the financial fortunes of powerful stakeholders in the global system. None, as they have expressed openly, seek a confrontation. Their only issue is managing perceptions of subordinates: in bureaucracies, in subject citizens, in vassal nations and nominal allies.

Posted by: robinthehood | Nov 16 2023 22:58 utc | 382

You are correct: KitaySupporter | Nov 16 2023 14:38 utc | 17 , and I apologize; I was wrong. I was in a hurry to catch a bus this morning and I didn’t see that b was posting from an earlier press conference. I am back now, will try to be more careful. Please disregard my effort earlier.
I would say both the questioner and Biden in the current incident were certainly off base. But not as seriously off base as I had been imagining. I hope something good comes out of Xi’s effort nonetheless. Biden’s is that of an old man who shouldn’t hold the position he does. I’m reminded of the senators in our past history who just don’t know when to leave the stage. Strom Thurmond was another instance. And as you see, I’m old myself, older even than Biden, (though not than Strom). Thanks all.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 16 2023 23:14 utc | 383

You are correct: KitaySupporter | Nov 16 2023 14:38 utc | 17 , and I apologize; I was wrong. I was in a hurry to catch a bus this morning and I didn’t see that b was posting from an earlier press conference. I am back now, will try to be more careful. Please disregard my effort earlier.
I would say both the questioner and Biden in the current incident were certainly off base. But not as seriously off base as I had been imagining. I hope something good comes out of Xi’s effort nonetheless. Biden’s is that of an old man who shouldn’t hold the position he does. I’m reminded of the senators in our past history who just don’t know when to leave the stage. Strom Thurmond was another instance. And as you see, I’m old myself, older even than Biden, (though not than Strom). Thanks all.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 16 2023 23:14 utc | 384

News this morning to me, in the interview/test for US citizenship, one question is whether you have ever been a communist.
Gee, I’m lucky been born American, don’t have to take the test.
Posted by: HelenB | Nov 16 2023 22:42 utc | 185
____
The same question is asked on “green card” applications. This caused me a few sleepless nights because I have several in-laws who are Communist Party members. Fortunately it was easy enough to convince USCIS that my spouse is apolitical.
Of course, HelenB, if we go through another McCarthy era, we might all have to answer that question.

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 16 2023 23:18 utc | 385

News this morning to me, in the interview/test for US citizenship, one question is whether you have ever been a communist.
Gee, I’m lucky been born American, don’t have to take the test.
Posted by: HelenB | Nov 16 2023 22:42 utc | 185
____
The same question is asked on “green card” applications. This caused me a few sleepless nights because I have several in-laws who are Communist Party members. Fortunately it was easy enough to convince USCIS that my spouse is apolitical.
Of course, HelenB, if we go through another McCarthy era, we might all have to answer that question.

Posted by: malenkov | Nov 16 2023 23:18 utc | 386

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 16 2023 20:17 utc | 148
Thanks for enjoying the links and agreeing with the “not yet”
But unlike you I have seen no significant answer to
Taiwan -> one china = whatever we decide to say it means
Chips/lithography embargo-> crickets = whatever we keep doing
Sundry wars-> we have talked = whatever we keep doing
So no evident capitulation so far, guess acts might be more important than words

Posted by: Newbie | Nov 16 2023 23:28 utc | 387

Posted by: sln2002 | Nov 16 2023 20:17 utc | 148
Thanks for enjoying the links and agreeing with the “not yet”
But unlike you I have seen no significant answer to
Taiwan -> one china = whatever we decide to say it means
Chips/lithography embargo-> crickets = whatever we keep doing
Sundry wars-> we have talked = whatever we keep doing
So no evident capitulation so far, guess acts might be more important than words

Posted by: Newbie | Nov 16 2023 23:28 utc | 388

I agree fully that the US state is not now, and never has been, a democracy (although US people themselves harbour fine democratic instincts).
However, one has to be utterly naive to think that most respondents to a survey in China would risk answering truthfully. Most, in fact, do not believe that China is a democracy, and that such a large minority of respondents were willing to deny that Beijing is democratic suggests that there is substantial dissatisfaction and the potential for great upheaval in the country.
Posted by: Tom Bergbusch | Nov 16 2023 20:53 utc | 155
I think you’re going too far in your comments on democracy in the US. It certainly was a legitimate bourgeois democracy and a great political improvement on previous forms at a time. The country wasn’t born evil. Like individuals it had it’s healthy youth and now it’s an authoritarian corpse as personified by it’s president.
As for the Chinese, I expect many would answer favorably based just on general living standards (no crime, good infrastructure, transportation, job opportunities, etc), but you’re partially correct that a survey taken by the all powerful CCP on how democratic it is, is going to be a little warped.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Nov 16 2023 23:34 utc | 389

I agree fully that the US state is not now, and never has been, a democracy (although US people themselves harbour fine democratic instincts).
However, one has to be utterly naive to think that most respondents to a survey in China would risk answering truthfully. Most, in fact, do not believe that China is a democracy, and that such a large minority of respondents were willing to deny that Beijing is democratic suggests that there is substantial dissatisfaction and the potential for great upheaval in the country.
Posted by: Tom Bergbusch | Nov 16 2023 20:53 utc | 155
I think you’re going too far in your comments on democracy in the US. It certainly was a legitimate bourgeois democracy and a great political improvement on previous forms at a time. The country wasn’t born evil. Like individuals it had it’s healthy youth and now it’s an authoritarian corpse as personified by it’s president.
As for the Chinese, I expect many would answer favorably based just on general living standards (no crime, good infrastructure, transportation, job opportunities, etc), but you’re partially correct that a survey taken by the all powerful CCP on how democratic it is, is going to be a little warped.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Nov 16 2023 23:34 utc | 390

This event was similar in real substance to Russia offering collective security treaty proposals in 2021: a show of good faith. Xi came all the way to the US to say, “Look, we’re not out to take over the world. Why don’t we try cooperation instead of competition?” (He actually said this.) What he got in return was, “We’re going to compete but we’d really prefer that it doesn’t become a war.” And then the kooky old man with too much power drops the “dictator” line for good measure.
Odds are good that this was something of a last chance opportunity and good ole Joe blew it. You can see it in Blinken’s face when Joe says dictator and you could see it in Blinken’s face when Joe was reading out the face-to-face statement. Tony’s an idiot. If he can see it, it’s bad.

Posted by: Lex | Nov 16 2023 23:39 utc | 391

This event was similar in real substance to Russia offering collective security treaty proposals in 2021: a show of good faith. Xi came all the way to the US to say, “Look, we’re not out to take over the world. Why don’t we try cooperation instead of competition?” (He actually said this.) What he got in return was, “We’re going to compete but we’d really prefer that it doesn’t become a war.” And then the kooky old man with too much power drops the “dictator” line for good measure.
Odds are good that this was something of a last chance opportunity and good ole Joe blew it. You can see it in Blinken’s face when Joe says dictator and you could see it in Blinken’s face when Joe was reading out the face-to-face statement. Tony’s an idiot. If he can see it, it’s bad.

Posted by: Lex | Nov 16 2023 23:39 utc | 392

karlof1 at | Nov 16 2023 19:04 utc | 126|, I know I’ve already put my foot in my mouth, but I’d say Xi would just be giving a look that says ‘Your question is completely out of place and ill mannered here’. I’d think that would be his immediate reaction as part of the importance of his presence in this country is to have peace and harmony spill over to the place where babies are dying.
It would have been better for Biden to have done the same in answer to the question b was describing earlier.
So, no, I don’t think he is saying he doesn’t trust Biden, but that’s just my opinion.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 16 2023 23:42 utc | 393

karlof1 at | Nov 16 2023 19:04 utc | 126|, I know I’ve already put my foot in my mouth, but I’d say Xi would just be giving a look that says ‘Your question is completely out of place and ill mannered here’. I’d think that would be his immediate reaction as part of the importance of his presence in this country is to have peace and harmony spill over to the place where babies are dying.
It would have been better for Biden to have done the same in answer to the question b was describing earlier.
So, no, I don’t think he is saying he doesn’t trust Biden, but that’s just my opinion.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 16 2023 23:42 utc | 394

The Chinese were prepared to offer a compromise just to unfreeze relations. Usa sanctioned the defence minister in 2018 for the heinous crime of China buying Russian weapons. Seriously. So no department level meeting has occurred since then , this defence conta t was a huge olive branch as China had previously stated there would be no cooperation until they were removed. .
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/30/biden-refuses-to-lift-sanctions-on-chinese-defense-minister/
Now China it seems sees benefit in unfreezing it as its like best to try with a mad dog than leave it to go bite people.

Posted by: Hankster | Nov 16 2023 23:46 utc | 395

The Chinese were prepared to offer a compromise just to unfreeze relations. Usa sanctioned the defence minister in 2018 for the heinous crime of China buying Russian weapons. Seriously. So no department level meeting has occurred since then , this defence conta t was a huge olive branch as China had previously stated there would be no cooperation until they were removed. .
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/30/biden-refuses-to-lift-sanctions-on-chinese-defense-minister/
Now China it seems sees benefit in unfreezing it as its like best to try with a mad dog than leave it to go bite people.

Posted by: Hankster | Nov 16 2023 23:46 utc | 396

Sorry to break it to you b and others but Xi Jinping IS the quintessential “dictator”. He is all about his own position to stay the ultimate boss in the Party, nation and beyond. He treats the Chinese population as a bunch of suspicious pawns, doesn’t care about them as long a the don’t criticize him. If they do, he will take their social credit as a minimum, vanish them & their family as maximum. A super Triad boss, maximum power freak. Lies, cheats and stole way more than any Mike Pompeo. On his younger photos you can see his body language, a tall bully.
If anyone believes he promoted Communism, sad story.
Joe Biden is more of a dementing Mafia capo, not a boss. A third rate dummy selected in a hurry. The government subsidy schemes Washington comes up with are pretty non-Capitalist. The US is drowning in its own capacity to print dollar bills.

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 16 2023 23:52 utc | 397

Sorry to break it to you b and others but Xi Jinping IS the quintessential “dictator”. He is all about his own position to stay the ultimate boss in the Party, nation and beyond. He treats the Chinese population as a bunch of suspicious pawns, doesn’t care about them as long a the don’t criticize him. If they do, he will take their social credit as a minimum, vanish them & their family as maximum. A super Triad boss, maximum power freak. Lies, cheats and stole way more than any Mike Pompeo. On his younger photos you can see his body language, a tall bully.
If anyone believes he promoted Communism, sad story.
Joe Biden is more of a dementing Mafia capo, not a boss. A third rate dummy selected in a hurry. The government subsidy schemes Washington comes up with are pretty non-Capitalist. The US is drowning in its own capacity to print dollar bills.

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 16 2023 23:52 utc | 398

Posted by: bevin | Nov 16 2023 16:05 utc | 52
Thank you for this post, Bevin.
And in regards to debt, here’s another great analysis:
Comprehensive comparison of China and US debt levels
https://www.baiguan.news/p/comprehensive-comparison-of-china

Posted by: Zet | Nov 17 2023 0:13 utc | 399

Posted by: bevin | Nov 16 2023 16:05 utc | 52
Thank you for this post, Bevin.
And in regards to debt, here’s another great analysis:
Comprehensive comparison of China and US debt levels
https://www.baiguan.news/p/comprehensive-comparison-of-china

Posted by: Zet | Nov 17 2023 0:13 utc | 400

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