Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 18, 2023
West’s Pro-Israel Position Accelerates Its Loss Of Power

Western media start to note how their politicians' unwavering support for Israel and Ukraine is diminishing their countries' global standing.

At Naked Capitalism Yves Smith notes the devastating political effects of the Gaza bombing on Biden's foreign policies:

Biden Gets Zelensky Treatment in Middle East as Israel Tries to Escalate

The US, in a continued demonstration of the degree of enbubblement of what passes for its leadership, seems to believe it still has the force and soft power to be able to bully talk its way out of its geopolitical messes. Yet this week we have stunning examples of how critical players in the rest to the world no longer buy what the US is selling. The gap between the American establishment’s connection to reality and facts on the ground has opened up to a yawning chasm as the Arab world, as Jordan cancelled a Biden summit with its King Abduallah II plus PLO chief Mahmoud Abbas and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El-Sisi in response to Israel’s shelling of Al-Ahli Arab hospital. Not only are they rejecting the attempt to shift blame for the attack to Hamas (we’ll soon address the “rogue shell” claim), but also the bigger pretense behind that, that the US is incapable of, as opposed to unwilling to, applying the choke chain to Israel.

Even the Western media are not much on board with the Israeli and Biden Administration pretense that somehow Hamas dunnit, when Israel has been trying to herd Palestinians out of northern Gaza and specifically attempted to order the evacuation of the hospital. Oh, and this follows Israel ordering the UN to evacuate from Gaza in 24 hours and then shelling its warehouse there: …

Israel bombed, probably with a U.S. made Hellfire missile, the courtyard of the Baptist al-Ahli Arab hospital where thousands had sought refuge. A short video of the immediate aftermath shows several dozens if not hundreds of dead and wounded. Doctors later held a press conference while standing among some of the casualties.

Like other hospitals al-Ahli Arab had been told by Israel to evacuate but could not do so as there are no other places where the sick and wounded, including many intensive care cases, could be cared for.

Three days earlier, notes the UN, the same hospital had, like others, already been bombed:

14 October 2023: In Gaza city city and governorate, Ahli Arab Hospital was hit by Israeli airstrikes, partially damaging two floors and damaging the ultrasound and mammography room. Four people were injured. Sources: Al Jazeera V and Personal Communication

To then claim, as Biden did, that 'the other team' was responsible for the attack is unfathomable.

It was also way too late says a RUSI fellow:

Going to repeat this as the situation has moved more in the past 16 hours than in the previous week.

The plates have shifted, radically. The window for Israeli operations has shrunk from more than a month, to a few days…if at all.

That is now the reality of where we stand.

No country besides the U.S. and a few Europeans will ever defend such barbarity. They will simply stop listen to what the 'west' has to say.

The Financial Times quotes a G7-official who struggles with this global divide:

Rush by west to back Israel erodes developing countries’ support for Ukraine (archived)

Western support for Israel’s assault on Gaza has poisoned efforts to build consensus with significant developing countries on condemning Russia’s war against Ukraine, officials and diplomats have warned.

The reaction to the October 7 attack on Israel by Islamist militant group Hamas and to Israel’s vow to hit back against Gaza has undone months of work to paint Moscow as a global pariah for breaching international law, they said, exposing the US, EU and their allies to charges of hypocrisy.

In the flurry of emergency diplomatic visits, video conferences and calls, western officials have been accused of failing to defend the interests of 2.3mn Palestinians in their rush to condemn the Hamas attack and support Israel.

The backlash had solidified entrenched positions in the developing world on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, officials said. They warned that this could derail future diplomatic efforts on Ukraine.

“We have definitely lost the battle in the Global South,” said one senior G7 diplomat. “All the work we have done with the Global South [over Ukraine] has been lost . . . Forget about rules, forget about world order. They won’t ever listen to us again.”

Some American diplomats are privately concerned that the Biden administration’s response has failed to acknowledge how its broad support of Israel can alienate much of the Global South.

Looking at the current BRI anniversary meeting of some 140 states in Beijing, the New York Times voices similar concerns:

New Global Divisions on View as Biden Goes to Israel and Putin to China

Russia and China are siding with a Palestinian people seeking liberation and self-determination, while in Washington’s eyes, they themselves deny those same possibilities to the Ukrainians, the Tibetans, the Uyghurs and even to the Taiwanese.

But in their reluctance to blame Hamas and effort to associate themselves with the Palestinian cause, both Russia and China are appealing to a wider sentiment in the so-called Global South — and in large parts of Europe, too. For them, it is Israel that is conducting a colonialist policy by its occupation of the West Bank, its encouragement of Jewish settlers on Palestinian land and its isolation of the 2.3 million people of Gaza, who are subjected even in normal times to sharp restrictions on their freedoms.

The Global South, a term for developing nations, is a vital area of the new competition between the West and the Chinese-Russian alternative, said Hanna Notte, the director of a Eurasia program at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies.

From the point of view of many in the Global South, she said, “the United States fights Russia, the occupier of Ukraine, but when it comes to Israel, the U.S. is on the side of the occupier, and Russia taps into that.”

The editorial board of the Washington Post also declares the failure of U.S. policies:

It would be a moral and strategic mistake to ignore Gaza’s plight

Still, the plight of Gazans has been treated by the United States and the wider international community as a sad but immutable fact in an irresolvable conflict. This was a moral and strategic error, helping promote the instability that has, for now, wrecked efforts on the part of Israel, the United States and Arab states to build a durable diplomatic settlement among the region’s big players.

The Carnegie Council explains how the global rift necessitates a change in western policies. It especially sees a need to ditch the so called "value-" or "rules-based-order" policies:

A Requiem for the Rules-Based Order
The Case for Value-Neutral Ethics in International Relations

Regardless of how it eventually concludes, the Russo-Ukrainian War represents a seismic event signaling profound changes in the global landscape. The unipolar era is at its end, major countries are more concerned with their cultural sovereignty and strategic autonomy than they have been in decades, and it seems inevitable that the once-dominant Western hegemony must gradually yield to a more diverse and multipolar system.

The period following World War II witnessed the ascendancy of the United States and its allies as architects of a new international order premised on the institutionalization of Western values such as democracy and human rights. This Western-centric approach to global governance—known as the “rules-based order”—has encountered mounting challenges. China's rise, Russia's geopolitical subversiveness, and the growing assertiveness of emerging powers from the Global South have eroded Western dominance. The outcome is a more diverse world, characterized by multiple centers of power coexisting, challenging any single ideology or set of substantive values.

Our particular sense of morality in the West should not stop us from aspiring to pursue what’s both wise and right. The evolving international order, characterized by polycentrism and multipolarity, challenges the conventional Western-dominated “rules-based” order. Drawing from Nietzsche's perspective on values, we recognize that values are context-dependent rather than innate, timeless, or universal. Similarly, the decline of our ancien regime does not spell the end of international ethics. If the current transition is understood correctly, it could promise the birth of a new normative system based on a functional, value-neutral, situational, and diplomatic ethic that has its primary concern in managing reciprocal relations between world powers.

Instead of attempting to impose our values on others (no matter how good or true we think they are), we in the West should prioritize engagement with other major powers based on common interests and shared objectives.

In sum, within the intellectual framework offered by cultural realism, we need an alternative instrumentalist and pragmatic ethic that 1) accepts the realities of power politics and spheres of interest without moralizing and projecting a Manichaean mentality upon the world, and 2) is grounded in principles that are conducive to a pluralist modus vivendi, including mutual and equal recognition, statesmanship, non-interference, humility, strategic empathy, and open dialogue.

Some might say that the west will never change its behavior but I do not believe that.

The west WILL HAVE TO change its behavior or it will go down into history's graveyard. There is no longer an alternative as the 'rules based order' has proven to be an unsellable dead end.

Comments

Dante | Oct 19 2023 12:17 utc | 411
The west died with the collapse of the Soviet union. Hubris and decadence set in resulting in lunatics in positions of power.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 12:21 utc | 413
Have to go with Peter on this one.

Posted by: canuck | Oct 19 2023 13:17 utc | 801

Dante | Oct 19 2023 12:17 utc | 411
The west died with the collapse of the Soviet union. Hubris and decadence set in resulting in lunatics in positions of power.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 12:21 utc | 413
Have to go with Peter on this one.

Posted by: canuck | Oct 19 2023 13:17 utc | 802

Just on the evidence currently available, it does seem casualties will be/are far less than what is claimed by the Hamas Gaza side
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 11:56 utc | 408
Have you considered that the parking lot must have been filled with people taking refuge or waiting on victims packed inside the hospital?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:17 utc | 803

Just on the evidence currently available, it does seem casualties will be/are far less than what is claimed by the Hamas Gaza side
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 11:56 utc | 408
Have you considered that the parking lot must have been filled with people taking refuge or waiting on victims packed inside the hospital?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:17 utc | 804

Posted by: irish al | Oct 19 2023 12:11 utc | 410
So we’re getting fixated with the ‘hospital incident’ as if that is *the* pivotal moment here. For fuck’s sake people, does your support or condemnation of one side or the other depend on this event?
###
Yes indeed, people ARE quite fixated on it, because it is, or appears, indicative of many things quite pertinent:
Just that one incident has galvanised the Arab world and even westerners into thinking and SAYING Israel is retaliating too hard.
It was first denied by Israel, and deflective bullshit was concocted, which illustrates the games/lies they will play to purport a Palestinian false flag, JUST LIKE THE FUCKING UKIES HAVE BEEN DOING FOR 18 FUCKING MONTHS — gaslighting the world about their nasty methods.
But I do wish EVERYONE would STOP calling it a hospital bombing. It was not. No wards were hit. No patients or doctors were hit. It was a crowd of civilian safety-seekers in a meeting plaza NEAR a hospital (not even the official hospital carpark). Yes, they were displaced civilians, and yes it is a terrible blatant war crime, but “a hospital” was not bombed. The word hospital has falsely swept the world, incited massive anger, plus the casualties have been massively exaggerated. If you count the cars parked there (about 30), multipy by maybe 4-6 per car and some others standing around, you’d get maybe 200 people present, ie a quarter killed and others injured.
Imo, Hamas should not guild the lily. There is no need to. Many many support them. They should play it straight. They seem naive about their PR … like Russia was in the beginning. So at this point, they need every IDF attrocity to stay in the headlines as long as they can.
And, without the justified angst around big events like this, wars become very banal. It is symbolic of many things.

Posted by: Sandy Freeman | Oct 19 2023 13:18 utc | 805

Posted by: irish al | Oct 19 2023 12:11 utc | 410
So we’re getting fixated with the ‘hospital incident’ as if that is *the* pivotal moment here. For fuck’s sake people, does your support or condemnation of one side or the other depend on this event?
###
Yes indeed, people ARE quite fixated on it, because it is, or appears, indicative of many things quite pertinent:
Just that one incident has galvanised the Arab world and even westerners into thinking and SAYING Israel is retaliating too hard.
It was first denied by Israel, and deflective bullshit was concocted, which illustrates the games/lies they will play to purport a Palestinian false flag, JUST LIKE THE FUCKING UKIES HAVE BEEN DOING FOR 18 FUCKING MONTHS — gaslighting the world about their nasty methods.
But I do wish EVERYONE would STOP calling it a hospital bombing. It was not. No wards were hit. No patients or doctors were hit. It was a crowd of civilian safety-seekers in a meeting plaza NEAR a hospital (not even the official hospital carpark). Yes, they were displaced civilians, and yes it is a terrible blatant war crime, but “a hospital” was not bombed. The word hospital has falsely swept the world, incited massive anger, plus the casualties have been massively exaggerated. If you count the cars parked there (about 30), multipy by maybe 4-6 per car and some others standing around, you’d get maybe 200 people present, ie a quarter killed and others injured.
Imo, Hamas should not guild the lily. There is no need to. Many many support them. They should play it straight. They seem naive about their PR … like Russia was in the beginning. So at this point, they need every IDF attrocity to stay in the headlines as long as they can.
And, without the justified angst around big events like this, wars become very banal. It is symbolic of many things.

Posted by: Sandy Freeman | Oct 19 2023 13:18 utc | 806

@ Posted by: librul | Oct 18 2023 23:17 utc | 255
Georgestown had been a rats nest for decades.
It recruits and trains thousands of operatives who provide the hundreds of thousands of their employees around the world and in every newsroom.
Flocks of mockingbirds emanate from there hence why there is no longer News, just Narrative and Propaganda.
Here in the U.K. our head political correspondent at the BBC started her ‘journalistic’ career there. Having come from a rather spooky and ‘German’ family with dubious history. Laura Kuennsberg is her name. Now displaying full US blonde hair extended leading lady Sunday morning slot.
She hand held Bojo the Clown Johnson into Downing Street, soft focus interviews etc. she did her part on lying about Corbyn the popular Labour Leader, and she announced the Postal Vote win for the Tories knowing it to be a lie.
That’s LauraKoftheCIA who runs the BBC’s mockingbird ring.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 19 2023 13:18 utc | 807

@ Posted by: librul | Oct 18 2023 23:17 utc | 255
Georgestown had been a rats nest for decades.
It recruits and trains thousands of operatives who provide the hundreds of thousands of their employees around the world and in every newsroom.
Flocks of mockingbirds emanate from there hence why there is no longer News, just Narrative and Propaganda.
Here in the U.K. our head political correspondent at the BBC started her ‘journalistic’ career there. Having come from a rather spooky and ‘German’ family with dubious history. Laura Kuennsberg is her name. Now displaying full US blonde hair extended leading lady Sunday morning slot.
She hand held Bojo the Clown Johnson into Downing Street, soft focus interviews etc. she did her part on lying about Corbyn the popular Labour Leader, and she announced the Postal Vote win for the Tories knowing it to be a lie.
That’s LauraKoftheCIA who runs the BBC’s mockingbird ring.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 19 2023 13:18 utc | 808

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2023/10/18/rushing-into-catastrophe/
PCR references b’s ‘US deploys large force’ article in his latest.

Rushing Into Catastrophe
Paul Craig Roberts
The Biden regime refuses to defend US borders but does not hesitate to rush aircraft carrier task forces and the 101st US Airborne Division to defend Israel’s borders. “We have Israel’s back,” endlessly proclaims America’ Jewish Secretary of State. “America can afford two wars,” proclaims America’s Jewish Secretary of the Treasury. But forget protecting our own border and the burdens on American taxpayers.
It seems our government is captured and risks our lives and welfare in the interest of another country.
It seems everyone in Washington, Republicans and Democrats, especially Republicans, have intense war fever. While Washington quickly escalated the conflict by deploying US military forces to the area, the Republican Senator from South Carolina, Lindsey Graham, blames escalation on Iran and issues a threat: “if you escalate this war, we’re coming for you.” Graham continues with his threats, in our name, to Iran saying the US will “knock Iran out of the oil business.” Like Israel and the Jewish-American neoconservatives, Graham’s target is the Lebanese militia, Hezbollah: “I am poised to use military force to destroy the source of funding for Hamas and Hezbollah.”
Another House Republican, this one from Texas, House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Michael McCaul, says he is writing legislation for authority to commit the US military to Israel’s war on Palestine.
What we are witnessing is Republicans who are as extreme as Hamas. Is this insanity real, or is this showmanship, with political campaign funding in mind, for the US military/security complex who will greatly benefit from America “affording two wars?”
We are also witnessing the total failure of Western leadership, not only in Washington but throughout the Western world. Instead of escalating the situation by sending military forces, Washington should have used its offices to calm matters down. Why did not Washington calm the situation down instead of blowing it up?
This website — https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/10/us-deploys-large-force-eyes-on-syria.html — speculates that the US forces accumulating in the war zone are a “war fleet,” the purpose of which is to finally bring regime change to Syria and kick out the Russians in an act of revenge for the Russians preventing President Obama’s planned overthrow of the Assad government.

Posted by: Scorpion | Oct 19 2023 13:20 utc | 809

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2023/10/18/rushing-into-catastrophe/
PCR references b’s ‘US deploys large force’ article in his latest.

Rushing Into Catastrophe
Paul Craig Roberts
The Biden regime refuses to defend US borders but does not hesitate to rush aircraft carrier task forces and the 101st US Airborne Division to defend Israel’s borders. “We have Israel’s back,” endlessly proclaims America’ Jewish Secretary of State. “America can afford two wars,” proclaims America’s Jewish Secretary of the Treasury. But forget protecting our own border and the burdens on American taxpayers.
It seems our government is captured and risks our lives and welfare in the interest of another country.
It seems everyone in Washington, Republicans and Democrats, especially Republicans, have intense war fever. While Washington quickly escalated the conflict by deploying US military forces to the area, the Republican Senator from South Carolina, Lindsey Graham, blames escalation on Iran and issues a threat: “if you escalate this war, we’re coming for you.” Graham continues with his threats, in our name, to Iran saying the US will “knock Iran out of the oil business.” Like Israel and the Jewish-American neoconservatives, Graham’s target is the Lebanese militia, Hezbollah: “I am poised to use military force to destroy the source of funding for Hamas and Hezbollah.”
Another House Republican, this one from Texas, House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Michael McCaul, says he is writing legislation for authority to commit the US military to Israel’s war on Palestine.
What we are witnessing is Republicans who are as extreme as Hamas. Is this insanity real, or is this showmanship, with political campaign funding in mind, for the US military/security complex who will greatly benefit from America “affording two wars?”
We are also witnessing the total failure of Western leadership, not only in Washington but throughout the Western world. Instead of escalating the situation by sending military forces, Washington should have used its offices to calm matters down. Why did not Washington calm the situation down instead of blowing it up?
This website — https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/10/us-deploys-large-force-eyes-on-syria.html — speculates that the US forces accumulating in the war zone are a “war fleet,” the purpose of which is to finally bring regime change to Syria and kick out the Russians in an act of revenge for the Russians preventing President Obama’s planned overthrow of the Assad government.

Posted by: Scorpion | Oct 19 2023 13:20 utc | 810

▪️”As soon as Turkey understands that Israel has weakened so much that the problem of creating the Ottoman Empire in the south can be solved…”
– Yuri Podolayaka, Journalist formerly from Sumi.
Posted by: ostro | Oct 19 2023 12:29 utc | 415
Good pick up, Ostro-I would nit pick Yuri on one point-I would change, “create”, to, “recreate” as the original Ottoman Empire lasted 600 years-roughly from the 14th century to the 20th.

Posted by: canuck | Oct 19 2023 13:23 utc | 811

▪️”As soon as Turkey understands that Israel has weakened so much that the problem of creating the Ottoman Empire in the south can be solved…”
– Yuri Podolayaka, Journalist formerly from Sumi.
Posted by: ostro | Oct 19 2023 12:29 utc | 415
Good pick up, Ostro-I would nit pick Yuri on one point-I would change, “create”, to, “recreate” as the original Ottoman Empire lasted 600 years-roughly from the 14th century to the 20th.

Posted by: canuck | Oct 19 2023 13:23 utc | 812

Re: Grand Strategies and how it effects the Levant;
Palestine et.al. wants a long war of attrition. They calculate that Tel Aviv can‘t support a long mobilization. They also calculate the longer the hot war goes on, the greater chance a long list of Allies join in the fight.
Tel Aviv wants a short lawn mowing operation similar to the ones before.

Posted by: Exile | Oct 19 2023 13:24 utc | 813

Re: Grand Strategies and how it effects the Levant;
Palestine et.al. wants a long war of attrition. They calculate that Tel Aviv can‘t support a long mobilization. They also calculate the longer the hot war goes on, the greater chance a long list of Allies join in the fight.
Tel Aviv wants a short lawn mowing operation similar to the ones before.

Posted by: Exile | Oct 19 2023 13:24 utc | 814

Gaza Hospital
The izzy are precise at dropping bombs exactly where they want them.
I saw one vidio of them demolishing
a block of flats in 3 sections one after another in less than 5 mins.
They can do that.
The Hospital courtyard did have 5000 people camping in it for savfty. After bombs dropped in the days before most moved out of the carpark. leaving behind 1000 who couldnt or wouldnt move.
My point…
That bomb was dropped right into the base of the building partly demolishing it by high velocity impact.
It was also an inscendry bomb killing alot of people out in the open by blast and fire. Leaving not much blood. And also killing a lot within the overcrowded Hospitial.
Iv got to say the fact anyone is even questioning this on this blog makes my stomchak churn with revoltion.
Most of the trolls that raise this subject will of couse be from bellingcat. And people are getting sucked right in.
Just tell them to piss of. And carry on with our sanity and reality…
Israel bombed that hospital murdering over 800 defenceless men women and children alot of whome were all ready injured and troumatised.
Our western govenment leaders and media already know the full truth of the above.
Its deliberate genicide with their tacid approval.
And now they lie as damage limitation can we move on from there ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:24 utc | 815

Gaza Hospital
The izzy are precise at dropping bombs exactly where they want them.
I saw one vidio of them demolishing
a block of flats in 3 sections one after another in less than 5 mins.
They can do that.
The Hospital courtyard did have 5000 people camping in it for savfty. After bombs dropped in the days before most moved out of the carpark. leaving behind 1000 who couldnt or wouldnt move.
My point…
That bomb was dropped right into the base of the building partly demolishing it by high velocity impact.
It was also an inscendry bomb killing alot of people out in the open by blast and fire. Leaving not much blood. And also killing a lot within the overcrowded Hospitial.
Iv got to say the fact anyone is even questioning this on this blog makes my stomchak churn with revoltion.
Most of the trolls that raise this subject will of couse be from bellingcat. And people are getting sucked right in.
Just tell them to piss of. And carry on with our sanity and reality…
Israel bombed that hospital murdering over 800 defenceless men women and children alot of whome were all ready injured and troumatised.
Our western govenment leaders and media already know the full truth of the above.
Its deliberate genicide with their tacid approval.
And now they lie as damage limitation can we move on from there ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:24 utc | 816

Israeli bombs are super impressive. Just one can blow a big building to smithereens.
Russian bombs are wet firecrackers in comparison.
https://t.me/intelslava/52361

Posted by: Surferket | Oct 19 2023 13:25 utc | 817

Israeli bombs are super impressive. Just one can blow a big building to smithereens.
Russian bombs are wet firecrackers in comparison.
https://t.me/intelslava/52361

Posted by: Surferket | Oct 19 2023 13:25 utc | 818

When Trump became POTUS he did everything he could to ingratiate himself with Israel and US Jewish oligarchs. Why? Because he understood that they were the key to power in the USA. Jewish members of the ruling elites have a chokehold on all media from movies to TV and they use that power for their own ends whether for profits or raw power. I’ve had a friend who was a retired high-ranking Pentagon official–he was a good guy, well-spoken, bright, convivial company, urbane and decent as a person. But his loyalty was primarily to the state of Israel and he was adamant on that after a few drinks. He loved our country but when push came to shove he would defend Israel with his life. This is true of many Jews in the USA though probably not a majority. However, these Jews are very prominent in the US security state and in major corporations and the financial world.
I’m saying this because it is absolutely impossible to become POTUS if you criticize Israel. Yes, RFK Jr. should criticize Israeli brutality and fascism but to do so would mean he could never even come close to power since he has alienated most other power groupings. Power is real–it is not about who wins policy debates. Power is the ability to fuck up your enemies and help your friends. Americans are sadly deluded to believe that power conflicts have anything to do with morality. Israelis, to their credit understand and are proud of the fact that their society is chauvinistic and is based on various “master-race” ideas most Israelis seem to hold. They pretend to be “little Israel” and morally upright to bullshit Americans who, as a group, believe in comic book realities of good guys and bad guys. So let’s let up on RFK.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Oct 19 2023 13:28 utc | 819

When Trump became POTUS he did everything he could to ingratiate himself with Israel and US Jewish oligarchs. Why? Because he understood that they were the key to power in the USA. Jewish members of the ruling elites have a chokehold on all media from movies to TV and they use that power for their own ends whether for profits or raw power. I’ve had a friend who was a retired high-ranking Pentagon official–he was a good guy, well-spoken, bright, convivial company, urbane and decent as a person. But his loyalty was primarily to the state of Israel and he was adamant on that after a few drinks. He loved our country but when push came to shove he would defend Israel with his life. This is true of many Jews in the USA though probably not a majority. However, these Jews are very prominent in the US security state and in major corporations and the financial world.
I’m saying this because it is absolutely impossible to become POTUS if you criticize Israel. Yes, RFK Jr. should criticize Israeli brutality and fascism but to do so would mean he could never even come close to power since he has alienated most other power groupings. Power is real–it is not about who wins policy debates. Power is the ability to fuck up your enemies and help your friends. Americans are sadly deluded to believe that power conflicts have anything to do with morality. Israelis, to their credit understand and are proud of the fact that their society is chauvinistic and is based on various “master-race” ideas most Israelis seem to hold. They pretend to be “little Israel” and morally upright to bullshit Americans who, as a group, believe in comic book realities of good guys and bad guys. So let’s let up on RFK.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Oct 19 2023 13:28 utc | 820

@ Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 19 2023 2:40 utc | 330
How does anyone stop working for the CIA or MI6 or FSB or whatever 3 letters they call themselves any of these secret intelligence employers?
Presumably they have lifetime contracts. In the sense of mafias.
Can they walk away and write and talk about their work?
Do you get to go and whistleblow if you knew there was something ’rotten’.
I doubt it- once a spook, always a spook, death is your only escape.
The Prisoner TV series of the 60’s spoke to that matter. Patrick Mcgooghan new a bit about that world.
When it comes to Larry , who I first came across at cia flunky Colonel Laings SicSemper/Turcoplier site.
A place I soon got a whiff of as an ever more pungent Limited Hangout outpost for the CIA elite ‘retirees’.
If Larry and go actually told any real explosive truths they would be hauled off rapido. So unless and until they do that , it is best to be a bit dubious about their motives.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 19 2023 13:28 utc | 821

@ Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 19 2023 2:40 utc | 330
How does anyone stop working for the CIA or MI6 or FSB or whatever 3 letters they call themselves any of these secret intelligence employers?
Presumably they have lifetime contracts. In the sense of mafias.
Can they walk away and write and talk about their work?
Do you get to go and whistleblow if you knew there was something ’rotten’.
I doubt it- once a spook, always a spook, death is your only escape.
The Prisoner TV series of the 60’s spoke to that matter. Patrick Mcgooghan new a bit about that world.
When it comes to Larry , who I first came across at cia flunky Colonel Laings SicSemper/Turcoplier site.
A place I soon got a whiff of as an ever more pungent Limited Hangout outpost for the CIA elite ‘retirees’.
If Larry and go actually told any real explosive truths they would be hauled off rapido. So unless and until they do that , it is best to be a bit dubious about their motives.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 19 2023 13:28 utc | 822

Posted by: PavewayIV | Oct 19 2023 4:49 utc | 351
The wiki on DIME explosives is interesting. There’s a short section on speculated use by Israel. I remember where Gaza doctors speculated a new type of explosive was used to cause unusual injuries back in the day.
Perhaps a key “feature” of DIME is that not only does it limit blast radius lethal zone (which I would think would be a function as well as the size of the warhead), but there is very little physical evidence in the aftermath of the explosion of the bomb itself greatly augmenting plausible deniability.
I suspect there won’t be a mention of DIME in the MSM.

Posted by: Oswald | Oct 19 2023 13:29 utc | 823

Posted by: PavewayIV | Oct 19 2023 4:49 utc | 351
The wiki on DIME explosives is interesting. There’s a short section on speculated use by Israel. I remember where Gaza doctors speculated a new type of explosive was used to cause unusual injuries back in the day.
Perhaps a key “feature” of DIME is that not only does it limit blast radius lethal zone (which I would think would be a function as well as the size of the warhead), but there is very little physical evidence in the aftermath of the explosion of the bomb itself greatly augmenting plausible deniability.
I suspect there won’t be a mention of DIME in the MSM.

Posted by: Oswald | Oct 19 2023 13:29 utc | 824

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7agiZ63zsY
From the interpreter of Islam originally from Boulder Colorado:
Israel needs a new paymaster – the Gulf States vs United States.
Then a One State solution can be proposed by ‘Global South mediators’.
If Israelis could reduce their extreme zealotry about Zionism and Eretz Israel and renounce being tied to and within the United States, they could be part of the region. As he puts it they need to ‘dislodge Israel from American leadership and patronage’. I think he is right, but making it happen is going to take the ‘Global South mediators’ to step up, which has yet to occur.

Posted by: Scorpion | Oct 19 2023 13:32 utc | 825

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7agiZ63zsY
From the interpreter of Islam originally from Boulder Colorado:
Israel needs a new paymaster – the Gulf States vs United States.
Then a One State solution can be proposed by ‘Global South mediators’.
If Israelis could reduce their extreme zealotry about Zionism and Eretz Israel and renounce being tied to and within the United States, they could be part of the region. As he puts it they need to ‘dislodge Israel from American leadership and patronage’. I think he is right, but making it happen is going to take the ‘Global South mediators’ to step up, which has yet to occur.

Posted by: Scorpion | Oct 19 2023 13:32 utc | 826

Is it possible-to-likely, that as in Syria, where an IL jet hid behind a RU surveillance plane causing its destruction as a result of Syrian fire, that IL timed its launch of a drone-fired missile to coincide with a Palestinian fighter’s missile launch against Israel? To be clear, I’ve seen no evidence so far this was the case.

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 19 2023 13:34 utc | 827

Is it possible-to-likely, that as in Syria, where an IL jet hid behind a RU surveillance plane causing its destruction as a result of Syrian fire, that IL timed its launch of a drone-fired missile to coincide with a Palestinian fighter’s missile launch against Israel? To be clear, I’ve seen no evidence so far this was the case.

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 19 2023 13:34 utc | 828

Posted by: Surferket | Oct 19 2023 13:25 utc | 430
Russia is fighting what was considered the best army in Europe at one point, heavily supplied and supported by the US and the usual poodles. Israel is fighting the Warsaw Ghetto. so fucking impressive.
re Trump and RFK Jr., Trump managed to become president without relentless lying about Russia, don’t kid yourself about RFK jr, he really believes this bullshit.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 19 2023 13:34 utc | 829

Posted by: Surferket | Oct 19 2023 13:25 utc | 430
Russia is fighting what was considered the best army in Europe at one point, heavily supplied and supported by the US and the usual poodles. Israel is fighting the Warsaw Ghetto. so fucking impressive.
re Trump and RFK Jr., Trump managed to become president without relentless lying about Russia, don’t kid yourself about RFK jr, he really believes this bullshit.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 19 2023 13:34 utc | 830

Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:17 utc | 423
I think about the headchopper vehicle bombs going of in crowds in Syria and compare it to the little bit of visual evidence that is available for the hospital bombing in Gaza.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 13:36 utc | 831

Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:17 utc | 423
I think about the headchopper vehicle bombs going of in crowds in Syria and compare it to the little bit of visual evidence that is available for the hospital bombing in Gaza.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 13:36 utc | 832

@Posted by: librul | Oct 18 2023 23:17 utc | 255
In regards to Manchurian candidate RFK, Jr.
In multiple posts I offered questions about Manchurian Candidate RFK Jr.
In particular, I focused on his new campaign manager a “former” CIA asset recruiter.
RFK, Jr has recently jettisoned Dennis Kucinich, who had a sane view of Israel, in favor of
the “former” CIA agent.
The new campaign manager, Amarylla Fox, has swum in waters teaming with spies and spy recruiters her entire life.
Growing up her family was never in the same place for more than a year because of her father’s work.
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/scholar/hodson-thornber/
He had work in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Britain and the US.
The new campaign manager says that while she was a student at Oxford University she rebuffed
British Intelligence who she says tried to recruit her. We can take her on her word that
she rebuffed British Intelligence. Also, while at Oxford she says that her “writing mentor” was the,
now famous, Daniel Pearl.
It is speculative to say that Daniel Pearl recruited or attempted to recruit her.
Somethings will always be unknown.
It is unclear as to whether Daniel Pearl was working for any intelligence agency.
His terrorist murderers believed that he was Mossad. It is difficult to untangle
which, if any, intelligence service he worked for. It was kept secret for years
that he was an Israeli citizen, and denials continued after it was revealed.
“However, due to some bureaucratic quirk, Israel’s Interior Ministry lists Daniel Pearl as an Israeli citizen, according to the Israeli daily Ha’aretz”.
https://www.jta.org/archive/murdered-journalist-daniel-pearl-was-gentle-soul-and-son-of-israelis
Immediately after attending Oxford and “rebuffing” British intelligence (and Daniel Pearl?)
she attended Georgetown University where it is known that the CIA has a recruiter in residence.
Amarylla says that she was recruited by him into the CIA.
Oh, she also claims that she had no idea that the CIA had a recruiter in residence at Georgetown
when she left Oxford. This begs the question whether Mossad or MI6 sent her to Georgetown for the purpose
of infiltrating the CIA.
In previous posts I gave a link to her description of her own CIA training, also her description of her training and
real life experience in “turning” people into assets. Did she find fertile ground in the family she married into,
the Kennedy family, fertile ground for creating new powerful assets?
It is a spooky world full of unknowns and surprises.
—-
Here is what RFK’ Jr Tweeted on X
11 days ago:

This ignominious, unprovoked, and barbaric attack on Israel must be met with world condemnation and unequivocal support for the Jewish state’s right to self-defense. We must provide Israel with whatever it needs to defend itself — now. As President, I’ll make sure that our policy is unambiguous so that the enemies of Israel will think long and hard before attempting aggression of any kind.
I applaud the strong statements of support from the Biden White House for Israel in her hour of need. However, the scale of these attacks means it is likely that Israel will need to wage a sustained military campaign to protect its citizens. Statements of support are fine, but we must follow through with unwavering, resolute, and practical action. America must stand by our ally throughout this operation and beyond as it exercises its sovereign right to self-defense.

Netanyahu could not have asked for more.

Posted by: librul | Oct 19 2023 13:40 utc | 833

@Posted by: librul | Oct 18 2023 23:17 utc | 255
In regards to Manchurian candidate RFK, Jr.
In multiple posts I offered questions about Manchurian Candidate RFK Jr.
In particular, I focused on his new campaign manager a “former” CIA asset recruiter.
RFK, Jr has recently jettisoned Dennis Kucinich, who had a sane view of Israel, in favor of
the “former” CIA agent.
The new campaign manager, Amarylla Fox, has swum in waters teaming with spies and spy recruiters her entire life.
Growing up her family was never in the same place for more than a year because of her father’s work.
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/scholar/hodson-thornber/
He had work in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Britain and the US.
The new campaign manager says that while she was a student at Oxford University she rebuffed
British Intelligence who she says tried to recruit her. We can take her on her word that
she rebuffed British Intelligence. Also, while at Oxford she says that her “writing mentor” was the,
now famous, Daniel Pearl.
It is speculative to say that Daniel Pearl recruited or attempted to recruit her.
Somethings will always be unknown.
It is unclear as to whether Daniel Pearl was working for any intelligence agency.
His terrorist murderers believed that he was Mossad. It is difficult to untangle
which, if any, intelligence service he worked for. It was kept secret for years
that he was an Israeli citizen, and denials continued after it was revealed.
“However, due to some bureaucratic quirk, Israel’s Interior Ministry lists Daniel Pearl as an Israeli citizen, according to the Israeli daily Ha’aretz”.
https://www.jta.org/archive/murdered-journalist-daniel-pearl-was-gentle-soul-and-son-of-israelis
Immediately after attending Oxford and “rebuffing” British intelligence (and Daniel Pearl?)
she attended Georgetown University where it is known that the CIA has a recruiter in residence.
Amarylla says that she was recruited by him into the CIA.
Oh, she also claims that she had no idea that the CIA had a recruiter in residence at Georgetown
when she left Oxford. This begs the question whether Mossad or MI6 sent her to Georgetown for the purpose
of infiltrating the CIA.
In previous posts I gave a link to her description of her own CIA training, also her description of her training and
real life experience in “turning” people into assets. Did she find fertile ground in the family she married into,
the Kennedy family, fertile ground for creating new powerful assets?
It is a spooky world full of unknowns and surprises.
—-
Here is what RFK’ Jr Tweeted on X
11 days ago:

This ignominious, unprovoked, and barbaric attack on Israel must be met with world condemnation and unequivocal support for the Jewish state’s right to self-defense. We must provide Israel with whatever it needs to defend itself — now. As President, I’ll make sure that our policy is unambiguous so that the enemies of Israel will think long and hard before attempting aggression of any kind.
I applaud the strong statements of support from the Biden White House for Israel in her hour of need. However, the scale of these attacks means it is likely that Israel will need to wage a sustained military campaign to protect its citizens. Statements of support are fine, but we must follow through with unwavering, resolute, and practical action. America must stand by our ally throughout this operation and beyond as it exercises its sovereign right to self-defense.

Netanyahu could not have asked for more.

Posted by: librul | Oct 19 2023 13:40 utc | 834

@ Posted by: ChasMark | Oct 19 2023 1:44 utc | 315
“ regarding the 1938 matter: if I recall correctly, that fact can be found in Peter Moreira’s The Jew Who Defeated Hitler: Henry Morgenthau Jr., FDR, and How We Won the War.. Moreira’s book is based upon the million-plus pages of notes and diary that Morgenthau left.”
The title of that book obviously is a LIE as we all know.
“How WE won..” which reminds me of that joke of the Lone Ranger and Tonto at Little Big Horn with the idiot Custers Infantry surrounded by the Native Americans- ‘we are in trouble, Tonto’ says LR; ‘what do you mean WE, white man’ says T.
It was the Red Army that WON against the Nazis and threatened to drive them back all the way to the Atlantic and Mediterranean. As we all know. Right?
The War was lost by the Nazis at Kursk, as we all know. Right?
There after the backers of the Nazis, that’s the US and U.K. had to scramble to avoid that final prospect and finally pretend to make the invasion and bombing towns and cities – whilst somehow still avoiding hitting the Factories and plants they still had investments in! Got it?
How do you suppose the ‘West’ Germans were able to get their industries restarted so quickly postwar?
The most plausible reason for targeting the towns and cities that the Russians could takeover before the Yanks and Brits could get their boots on the ground is that they were erasing evidence of their complicity in the Nazis war! That includes many people who would have lived and worked in German industry that had direct knowledge of that connection.
A panicked destruction of not just the places like the Confederates withdrawal and burning of Atlanta, but the populace and records that would have proved that it was the Western powers who had a long con running in the attack against Russia using the German Nazis as proxies!
Which as we all know is the truth, right?
Morgenthau might have made millions of pages of notes and diaries – though I DOUBT It – at 10 pages a day that’s 100, 000 days. At 100 pages a day that’s 10,000 days.
If he wrote EVERY single day that’s between 270 max and 27 years minimum!
Do you still believe that?
Don’t get seduced into buying bridges Chas unless you want to be known as a complete sucker!
Nothing personal I don’t have any bone to pick with you as a poster and would prefer to keep it that way. All best.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 19 2023 13:41 utc | 835

@ Posted by: ChasMark | Oct 19 2023 1:44 utc | 315
“ regarding the 1938 matter: if I recall correctly, that fact can be found in Peter Moreira’s The Jew Who Defeated Hitler: Henry Morgenthau Jr., FDR, and How We Won the War.. Moreira’s book is based upon the million-plus pages of notes and diary that Morgenthau left.”
The title of that book obviously is a LIE as we all know.
“How WE won..” which reminds me of that joke of the Lone Ranger and Tonto at Little Big Horn with the idiot Custers Infantry surrounded by the Native Americans- ‘we are in trouble, Tonto’ says LR; ‘what do you mean WE, white man’ says T.
It was the Red Army that WON against the Nazis and threatened to drive them back all the way to the Atlantic and Mediterranean. As we all know. Right?
The War was lost by the Nazis at Kursk, as we all know. Right?
There after the backers of the Nazis, that’s the US and U.K. had to scramble to avoid that final prospect and finally pretend to make the invasion and bombing towns and cities – whilst somehow still avoiding hitting the Factories and plants they still had investments in! Got it?
How do you suppose the ‘West’ Germans were able to get their industries restarted so quickly postwar?
The most plausible reason for targeting the towns and cities that the Russians could takeover before the Yanks and Brits could get their boots on the ground is that they were erasing evidence of their complicity in the Nazis war! That includes many people who would have lived and worked in German industry that had direct knowledge of that connection.
A panicked destruction of not just the places like the Confederates withdrawal and burning of Atlanta, but the populace and records that would have proved that it was the Western powers who had a long con running in the attack against Russia using the German Nazis as proxies!
Which as we all know is the truth, right?
Morgenthau might have made millions of pages of notes and diaries – though I DOUBT It – at 10 pages a day that’s 100, 000 days. At 100 pages a day that’s 10,000 days.
If he wrote EVERY single day that’s between 270 max and 27 years minimum!
Do you still believe that?
Don’t get seduced into buying bridges Chas unless you want to be known as a complete sucker!
Nothing personal I don’t have any bone to pick with you as a poster and would prefer to keep it that way. All best.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 19 2023 13:41 utc | 836

As a Georgetown SFS undergrad ( from the late 1970s); I was on a sports team so the bonds are still active after all these decades…..
2 sets of my close school friends stay absolutely silent with a weird look when it we meet for cocktails every few years – the first set had a career on Wall Street the second set had a career at State/DoD/or “DC consulting” (Almost like they have something to hide 😎)
The rest of my Georgetown classmates are gregarious telling all sorts of tales regarding work life.
Hmmmm

Posted by: Exile | Oct 19 2023 13:42 utc | 837

As a Georgetown SFS undergrad ( from the late 1970s); I was on a sports team so the bonds are still active after all these decades…..
2 sets of my close school friends stay absolutely silent with a weird look when it we meet for cocktails every few years – the first set had a career on Wall Street the second set had a career at State/DoD/or “DC consulting” (Almost like they have something to hide 😎)
The rest of my Georgetown classmates are gregarious telling all sorts of tales regarding work life.
Hmmmm

Posted by: Exile | Oct 19 2023 13:42 utc | 838

“But I do wish EVERYONE would STOP calling it a hospital bombing. It was not. No wards were hit. No patients or doctors were hit. It was a crowd of civilian safety-seekers in a meeting plaza NEAR a hospital (not even the official hospital carpark). Yes, they were displaced civilians, and yes it is a terrible blatant war crime, but “a hospital” was not bombed. The word hospital has falsely swept the world, incited massive anger, plus the casualties have been massively exaggerated. If you count the cars parked there (about 30), multipy by maybe 4-6 per car and some others standing around, you’d get maybe 200 people present, ie a quarter killed and others injured.”
it was a hospital bombing. people are going to call it a hospital bombing. they managed to kill a lot of refugees in the parking lot, too. in time we will find out how many. this damage control campaign is not going to convince people they can’t believe their lying eyes.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 19 2023 13:46 utc | 839

“But I do wish EVERYONE would STOP calling it a hospital bombing. It was not. No wards were hit. No patients or doctors were hit. It was a crowd of civilian safety-seekers in a meeting plaza NEAR a hospital (not even the official hospital carpark). Yes, they were displaced civilians, and yes it is a terrible blatant war crime, but “a hospital” was not bombed. The word hospital has falsely swept the world, incited massive anger, plus the casualties have been massively exaggerated. If you count the cars parked there (about 30), multipy by maybe 4-6 per car and some others standing around, you’d get maybe 200 people present, ie a quarter killed and others injured.”
it was a hospital bombing. people are going to call it a hospital bombing. they managed to kill a lot of refugees in the parking lot, too. in time we will find out how many. this damage control campaign is not going to convince people they can’t believe their lying eyes.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 19 2023 13:46 utc | 840

ChasMark @263
You are telling people a very dangerous truth. I hope no one reads your comment. Have WE been the baddies since the turn of the 1900s, yes, oh yes, you are frigging right we have been.
Do not read ChasMark’s post. It is too much truth for the human brain to consider.

Posted by: Johnny | Oct 19 2023 13:46 utc | 841

ChasMark @263
You are telling people a very dangerous truth. I hope no one reads your comment. Have WE been the baddies since the turn of the 1900s, yes, oh yes, you are frigging right we have been.
Do not read ChasMark’s post. It is too much truth for the human brain to consider.

Posted by: Johnny | Oct 19 2023 13:46 utc | 842

juliania | Oct 19 2023 13:14 utc | 421
Slave to conscience….an annoying little thing that controls many.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 13:47 utc | 843

juliania | Oct 19 2023 13:14 utc | 421
Slave to conscience….an annoying little thing that controls many.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 13:47 utc | 844

Without water the humen body can suvive in less than days.
Their will be no ais going into gaza. They lied.
To delay consent.
At the bare minimum it would need 100 lorrys a day to support 2 million people.
Thats not including water or fueil.
The vegatable on his vist arranged for 20 or 50 lorrys (not per day)
The fact that Egypt had arranged that anyway is a small point.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:48 utc | 845

Without water the humen body can suvive in less than days.
Their will be no ais going into gaza. They lied.
To delay consent.
At the bare minimum it would need 100 lorrys a day to support 2 million people.
Thats not including water or fueil.
The vegatable on his vist arranged for 20 or 50 lorrys (not per day)
The fact that Egypt had arranged that anyway is a small point.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:48 utc | 846

unfortunately, the right wing in US is pro-Israel as well as democrats…
latin america is christian, and not so moveable… societies world-wide are SPLIT…
excerpts here, should not be ignored:
Prominent Israeli journalist Yossi Yehoshua stated, “the United States has complete control over the battle in Gaza.
Washington sent via multiple Lebanese, Arab, and UN channels, the Americans decided to get more explicit: Threats were made to the group and its allies that Hezbollah’s entry into the war would lead to Lebanon’s destruction. Similar threats were also delivered to Iraq’s many resistance organizations.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad received a more unique warning – that if he allowed a Syrian front to be opened against Israel, he would personally suffer the consequences. This, while Israel was bombing Syria’s international airports in Damascus and Aleppo.
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/trouble-ahead-for-the-us-and-israel-in-gaza

Posted by: Kim Sky | Oct 19 2023 13:50 utc | 847

unfortunately, the right wing in US is pro-Israel as well as democrats…
latin america is christian, and not so moveable… societies world-wide are SPLIT…
excerpts here, should not be ignored:
Prominent Israeli journalist Yossi Yehoshua stated, “the United States has complete control over the battle in Gaza.
Washington sent via multiple Lebanese, Arab, and UN channels, the Americans decided to get more explicit: Threats were made to the group and its allies that Hezbollah’s entry into the war would lead to Lebanon’s destruction. Similar threats were also delivered to Iraq’s many resistance organizations.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad received a more unique warning – that if he allowed a Syrian front to be opened against Israel, he would personally suffer the consequences. This, while Israel was bombing Syria’s international airports in Damascus and Aleppo.
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/trouble-ahead-for-the-us-and-israel-in-gaza

Posted by: Kim Sky | Oct 19 2023 13:50 utc | 848

407
Same facts like with irak and saddam hussein or khaddafi in Lybia?
Collin Powel is it u ?

Posted by: SlowSoft | Oct 19 2023 13:51 utc | 849

407
Same facts like with irak and saddam hussein or khaddafi in Lybia?
Collin Powel is it u ?

Posted by: SlowSoft | Oct 19 2023 13:51 utc | 850

I think about the headchopper vehicle bombs going of in crowds in Syria and compare it to the little bit of visual evidence that is available for the hospital bombing in Gaza.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 13:36 utc | 437
Yes, but none of those bombs came streaking across the sky with a sound remarkably like that of an American missile …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:57 utc | 851

I think about the headchopper vehicle bombs going of in crowds in Syria and compare it to the little bit of visual evidence that is available for the hospital bombing in Gaza.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 13:36 utc | 437
Yes, but none of those bombs came streaking across the sky with a sound remarkably like that of an American missile …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:57 utc | 852

What happens next ?
Thats what we should be discusing.
Calmly and useing the facts we know to look at the coming days and weeks.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:57 utc | 853

What happens next ?
Thats what we should be discusing.
Calmly and useing the facts we know to look at the coming days and weeks.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:57 utc | 854

Sat image that shows the central courtyard of the Hospital complex where the bomb struck..
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/31°30'17.6“N+34°27’41.4″E/@31.5049982,34.4610899,193m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d31.5048889!4d34.4615?entry=ttu

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 14:00 utc | 855

Sat image that shows the central courtyard of the Hospital complex where the bomb struck..
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/31°30'17.6“N+34°27’41.4″E/@31.5049982,34.4610899,193m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d31.5048889!4d34.4615?entry=ttu

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 14:00 utc | 856

Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:57 utc | 448
Regardless of delivery method which matters little, I look at blast damage, signs of clothing, baggage, bloodstains ect.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the Israelis bombed the place. They had attacked it several days earlier. Now it is a matter of sorting out facts. Get in an argument with a Zionist type and if your facts are greatly exaggerated, that will come back to bite you.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 14:06 utc | 857

Arch Bungle | Oct 19 2023 13:57 utc | 448
Regardless of delivery method which matters little, I look at blast damage, signs of clothing, baggage, bloodstains ect.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the Israelis bombed the place. They had attacked it several days earlier. Now it is a matter of sorting out facts. Get in an argument with a Zionist type and if your facts are greatly exaggerated, that will come back to bite you.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 14:06 utc | 858

Anyone who doubts that this was an attack on a Hospital should avoid following the story in Middle East Eye. which interviews vixtims and witnesses.
To put the current attacks into perspective the total explosive tonnage directed into Gaxza in the past two weeks is the equivalent of a quarter if the bomb dropped on Hiroshima…and counting.
As Seymour Hersh says the intention is to make this the equivalent-in explosive power- of Hiroshima in Gaza.
“A doctor at Gaza’s al-Ahli Arab hospital has described the “surreal” and “horrifying” scenes he witnessed in the aftermath of an Israeli air strike that killed at least 471 Palestinians there last night.
“The brutality and the nature of the injuries we saw were something we had never witnessed in any attack on Gaza before,” Mohammed Gniem told Middle East Eye, after an Israeli bomb ripped through the hospital, leaving the bodies of the dead and wounded in its wake.
“It’s so surreal, it could have been a dream. Even in cinema, if they wanted to create a horrifying scene, they wouldn’t make a scene like this,” Gniem said.
“We still can’t believe that what happened is a reality. It’s a hospital! Protected by international humanitarian law. Any displaced person who goes there, any medical sector worker, is supposed to be protected within it.”
“The massacre marks the single greatest loss of life in the ongoing conflict, which has seen at least 3,000 Palestinians killed in Gaza and the West Bank, and 1,400 people killed in Israel. Israeli siege and air strikes on Gaza have continued since 7 October, following a surprise Hamas-led attack on Israel…”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-hospital-blast-horrifying-surreal-scenes
It is sad to see posters who have earned the reputation of being reliable and sensible contributors allowing themselves to become so obsessed by the technical details of the attack-details beyond their view- that they put their amour propre before the real suffering of people. In doing so they turn themselves into trolls whitewashing an historic crime.

Posted by: bevin | Oct 19 2023 14:19 utc | 859

Anyone who doubts that this was an attack on a Hospital should avoid following the story in Middle East Eye. which interviews vixtims and witnesses.
To put the current attacks into perspective the total explosive tonnage directed into Gaxza in the past two weeks is the equivalent of a quarter if the bomb dropped on Hiroshima…and counting.
As Seymour Hersh says the intention is to make this the equivalent-in explosive power- of Hiroshima in Gaza.
“A doctor at Gaza’s al-Ahli Arab hospital has described the “surreal” and “horrifying” scenes he witnessed in the aftermath of an Israeli air strike that killed at least 471 Palestinians there last night.
“The brutality and the nature of the injuries we saw were something we had never witnessed in any attack on Gaza before,” Mohammed Gniem told Middle East Eye, after an Israeli bomb ripped through the hospital, leaving the bodies of the dead and wounded in its wake.
“It’s so surreal, it could have been a dream. Even in cinema, if they wanted to create a horrifying scene, they wouldn’t make a scene like this,” Gniem said.
“We still can’t believe that what happened is a reality. It’s a hospital! Protected by international humanitarian law. Any displaced person who goes there, any medical sector worker, is supposed to be protected within it.”
“The massacre marks the single greatest loss of life in the ongoing conflict, which has seen at least 3,000 Palestinians killed in Gaza and the West Bank, and 1,400 people killed in Israel. Israeli siege and air strikes on Gaza have continued since 7 October, following a surprise Hamas-led attack on Israel…”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-hospital-blast-horrifying-surreal-scenes
It is sad to see posters who have earned the reputation of being reliable and sensible contributors allowing themselves to become so obsessed by the technical details of the attack-details beyond their view- that they put their amour propre before the real suffering of people. In doing so they turn themselves into trolls whitewashing an historic crime.

Posted by: bevin | Oct 19 2023 14:19 utc | 860

bevin | Oct 19 2023 14:19 utc | 453
I assume that was directed at me?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 14:23 utc | 861

bevin | Oct 19 2023 14:19 utc | 453
I assume that was directed at me?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 19 2023 14:23 utc | 862

430
Impressive????
Bunker Busters vs residential bldg & hospitals?
Hahaha 😹
I don’t know any case Russia was using bunker buster or FAB 500 vs hospitals or residential bldgs
Except of Azovstal and other Soviet bunkers on ukro Territory
Lets see israhell firecrackers working on Azovstal!
Btw the bldgs in Gaza re made from very very very cheap & poor materials!

Posted by: SlowSoft | Oct 19 2023 14:28 utc | 863

430
Impressive????
Bunker Busters vs residential bldg & hospitals?
Hahaha 😹
I don’t know any case Russia was using bunker buster or FAB 500 vs hospitals or residential bldgs
Except of Azovstal and other Soviet bunkers on ukro Territory
Lets see israhell firecrackers working on Azovstal!
Btw the bldgs in Gaza re made from very very very cheap & poor materials!

Posted by: SlowSoft | Oct 19 2023 14:28 utc | 864

How are 2,000,000 people going to survive the comeing days and weeks without water food medicine and petroil.
Having allready been troumitised by bombing forced to move from north to south.
They now will be dying from lack of water food madical care. And any day desease will set in. Cholra typoid dysentre.
Inocent people.
While the western world stands back and supports Israel ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 14:34 utc | 865

How are 2,000,000 people going to survive the comeing days and weeks without water food medicine and petroil.
Having allready been troumitised by bombing forced to move from north to south.
They now will be dying from lack of water food madical care. And any day desease will set in. Cholra typoid dysentre.
Inocent people.
While the western world stands back and supports Israel ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 14:34 utc | 866

Russia is fighting what was considered the best army in Europe at one point, heavily supplied and supported by the US and the usual poodles. Israel is fighting the Warsaw Ghetto. so fucking impressive.

Exactly. Israel and her supporters act and behave as though they are fighting heroically as they shoot women and children in a barrel.
Meanwhile daddy Maerica is there to intimidate anyone from trying to stop it, by acting as a tripwire to ww3. Daring the world to stop their outrages.
They even call it a ‘war’. It’s state massacres and ethnic cleansing.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 19 2023 14:40 utc | 867

Russia is fighting what was considered the best army in Europe at one point, heavily supplied and supported by the US and the usual poodles. Israel is fighting the Warsaw Ghetto. so fucking impressive.

Exactly. Israel and her supporters act and behave as though they are fighting heroically as they shoot women and children in a barrel.
Meanwhile daddy Maerica is there to intimidate anyone from trying to stop it, by acting as a tripwire to ww3. Daring the world to stop their outrages.
They even call it a ‘war’. It’s state massacres and ethnic cleansing.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 19 2023 14:40 utc | 868

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 19 2023 3:34 utc | 339
Great! This has been my opinion for a number of years. The two-state option died long ago, if it ever existed. The Zionist plan was always to eliminate the Palestinians one way or another.

Posted by: El Oso de Los Llanos | Oct 19 2023 14:43 utc | 869

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 19 2023 3:34 utc | 339
Great! This has been my opinion for a number of years. The two-state option died long ago, if it ever existed. The Zionist plan was always to eliminate the Palestinians one way or another.

Posted by: El Oso de Los Llanos | Oct 19 2023 14:43 utc | 870

How will israel feed IT,s 2,million prisoners over the next weeks.
Becouse to fail do do so is beond disput a ‘war crime’ of the highist magnatude.
Gaza is a concentration camp.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 14:46 utc | 871

How will israel feed IT,s 2,million prisoners over the next weeks.
Becouse to fail do do so is beond disput a ‘war crime’ of the highist magnatude.
Gaza is a concentration camp.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 14:46 utc | 872

Leon Hadar wrote in 2005 a book called “Sandstorm” in which he wrote that the US would lose the “War on Terror”.
He was also interviewed by Scott Horton:
https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-leon-hadar/
https://www.amazon.com/Sandstorm-Policy-Failure-Middle-East/dp/1403967245

Posted by: Mr. Market | Oct 19 2023 14:47 utc | 873

Leon Hadar wrote in 2005 a book called “Sandstorm” in which he wrote that the US would lose the “War on Terror”.
He was also interviewed by Scott Horton:
https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-leon-hadar/
https://www.amazon.com/Sandstorm-Policy-Failure-Middle-East/dp/1403967245

Posted by: Mr. Market | Oct 19 2023 14:47 utc | 874

@ Immaculate deception | Oct 19 2023 4:34 utc | 347
lol – yes, maybe!
@ waynorinorway | Oct 19 2023 4:41 utc | 350
thanks for that insight.. yes.. it is hard to keep up.. i am not able to stay on top of the comments at present.. i see uncle tungsten at karls substack… cheers james

Posted by: james | Oct 19 2023 14:57 utc | 875

@ Immaculate deception | Oct 19 2023 4:34 utc | 347
lol – yes, maybe!
@ waynorinorway | Oct 19 2023 4:41 utc | 350
thanks for that insight.. yes.. it is hard to keep up.. i am not able to stay on top of the comments at present.. i see uncle tungsten at karls substack… cheers james

Posted by: james | Oct 19 2023 14:57 utc | 876

What happens next ?
Carpet bombing ?
Boots on the ground Rhwanda style mass murder by Israelis slaughtering men, women, children and babys ?
Or slow starvation ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 14:58 utc | 877

What happens next ?
Carpet bombing ?
Boots on the ground Rhwanda style mass murder by Israelis slaughtering men, women, children and babys ?
Or slow starvation ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 14:58 utc | 878

I agree with Mark2, and Bevin, and Doctor Eleven (and many others).
Israel is in the process of publicly, openly, and relatively quickly killing two million civilians.
What Israel is doing right now is worse than what the Nazis did in their concentration camps.
There is no doubt about it.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 19 2023 15:00 utc | 879

I agree with Mark2, and Bevin, and Doctor Eleven (and many others).
Israel is in the process of publicly, openly, and relatively quickly killing two million civilians.
What Israel is doing right now is worse than what the Nazis did in their concentration camps.
There is no doubt about it.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 19 2023 15:00 utc | 880

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:24 utc | 429
###
Not to disparage the bombing of any number of civilians, but WHERE EXACTLY are you getting these numbers, these facts? I have been reading widely on this for days and have not seen a single mention of:
* 5000 people there initially.
* Bombs dropped in the days before and most moving out of the carpark.
* A bomb dropped “right in the base of the building partially demolishing it”. In fact I saw a 360 degree scan of the blast centre with one small pot hole and no building damage.
* “800 murdered”. Even the PLO said only “up to 500” which no-one has validated and which 90% say is way inflated.
The reason this event is still bouncing around is due to so many disparate reports, of which yours is merely one, the ONLY such one I’ve seen.

Posted by: Sandy Freeman | Oct 19 2023 15:07 utc | 881

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 13:24 utc | 429
###
Not to disparage the bombing of any number of civilians, but WHERE EXACTLY are you getting these numbers, these facts? I have been reading widely on this for days and have not seen a single mention of:
* 5000 people there initially.
* Bombs dropped in the days before and most moving out of the carpark.
* A bomb dropped “right in the base of the building partially demolishing it”. In fact I saw a 360 degree scan of the blast centre with one small pot hole and no building damage.
* “800 murdered”. Even the PLO said only “up to 500” which no-one has validated and which 90% say is way inflated.
The reason this event is still bouncing around is due to so many disparate reports, of which yours is merely one, the ONLY such one I’ve seen.

Posted by: Sandy Freeman | Oct 19 2023 15:07 utc | 882

Sandy Freeman @ 460
Thanks for your comment.
Now fuck off back to bellingcat.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 15:13 utc | 883

Sandy Freeman @ 460
Thanks for your comment.
Now fuck off back to bellingcat.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 15:13 utc | 884

It’s been quite awhile since I last posted, but it’s always a pleasure reading folks comments AFTER b has removed the trolls remarks.
About the Al Ahli Baptist Hospital bombing. Israel admits they bombed a nearby garage within the 7pm-ish window of time the hospital was hit. It seems reasonable to conject those early photos of a building w/pancaked floors was that garage. And it would make perfectly good sense for Gazans to shelter there due to the proximity to the hospital, quasi shelter from inclement weather and safety in numbers.
As well, a poster over at SONAR who goes by A.Dane suggests the missile that hit the courtyard was a JDAM missile set-up to “burst” –
Here are the JDAM bombs delivered by the US to Israel back on the 12-10-2023 https://twitter.com/ArthurM40330824/status/1712486522086478053
However an Analysis by the Military Chronicle claim that the death toll from the Gaza hospital could not have been caused by a typical Palestinian rocket, but the explosion could have been a JDAM bomb set up for air burst that left no crater while causing damage to all civilians within a wide area from the blast. https://t.me/Slavyangrad/69125
This A.Dane individual has more on JDAMs in today’s post/comment section for those interested.
___________________________
Just an observation – when looking at the photo’s of the courtyard area that was bombed sure looks eerily similar to the images coming out of Lahania, Maui, Hawaii.

Posted by: h | Oct 19 2023 15:18 utc | 885

It’s been quite awhile since I last posted, but it’s always a pleasure reading folks comments AFTER b has removed the trolls remarks.
About the Al Ahli Baptist Hospital bombing. Israel admits they bombed a nearby garage within the 7pm-ish window of time the hospital was hit. It seems reasonable to conject those early photos of a building w/pancaked floors was that garage. And it would make perfectly good sense for Gazans to shelter there due to the proximity to the hospital, quasi shelter from inclement weather and safety in numbers.
As well, a poster over at SONAR who goes by A.Dane suggests the missile that hit the courtyard was a JDAM missile set-up to “burst” –
Here are the JDAM bombs delivered by the US to Israel back on the 12-10-2023 https://twitter.com/ArthurM40330824/status/1712486522086478053
However an Analysis by the Military Chronicle claim that the death toll from the Gaza hospital could not have been caused by a typical Palestinian rocket, but the explosion could have been a JDAM bomb set up for air burst that left no crater while causing damage to all civilians within a wide area from the blast. https://t.me/Slavyangrad/69125
This A.Dane individual has more on JDAMs in today’s post/comment section for those interested.
___________________________
Just an observation – when looking at the photo’s of the courtyard area that was bombed sure looks eerily similar to the images coming out of Lahania, Maui, Hawaii.

Posted by: h | Oct 19 2023 15:18 utc | 886

All together now, “Ooh-aah, Hezbollah, sing ooh-aah Hezbollah!”

Posted by: Squeeth | Oct 19 2023 15:31 utc | 887

All together now, “Ooh-aah, Hezbollah, sing ooh-aah Hezbollah!”

Posted by: Squeeth | Oct 19 2023 15:31 utc | 888

They pretend to be “little Israel” and morally upright to bullshit Americans who, as a group, believe in comic book realities of good guys and bad guys. So let’s let up on RFK.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Oct 19 2023 13:28 utc | 428
………………………
Did your Pentagon friend say how and why they have such a lock on power networks in US?

Posted by: Scorpion | Oct 19 2023 15:40 utc | 889

They pretend to be “little Israel” and morally upright to bullshit Americans who, as a group, believe in comic book realities of good guys and bad guys. So let’s let up on RFK.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Oct 19 2023 13:28 utc | 428
………………………
Did your Pentagon friend say how and why they have such a lock on power networks in US?

Posted by: Scorpion | Oct 19 2023 15:40 utc | 890

All together now, “Ooh-aah, Hezbollah, sing ooh-aah Hezbollah!

Noone can read inside of your polluted mind, but I’m assuming you’re bitching that Israel is being called out for its ethnic cleansing.
Boo fucking hoo. A group of extremists attacks and you respond by imposing a starvation siege on the entire captive population? Anyone supporting this is a straight up nazi. Get fucked.
MOA isn’t a monolith. Others might suggest that poor widdle Israel is unable to blow up thousands of woman and children in a open air prison without their sugar daddy Maerica standing there. Others might side with you and agree that bombing kids is good because reasons and somehow try to claim the moral highground like the myopic assholes they are.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 19 2023 15:45 utc | 891

All together now, “Ooh-aah, Hezbollah, sing ooh-aah Hezbollah!

Noone can read inside of your polluted mind, but I’m assuming you’re bitching that Israel is being called out for its ethnic cleansing.
Boo fucking hoo. A group of extremists attacks and you respond by imposing a starvation siege on the entire captive population? Anyone supporting this is a straight up nazi. Get fucked.
MOA isn’t a monolith. Others might suggest that poor widdle Israel is unable to blow up thousands of woman and children in a open air prison without their sugar daddy Maerica standing there. Others might side with you and agree that bombing kids is good because reasons and somehow try to claim the moral highground like the myopic assholes they are.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 19 2023 15:45 utc | 892

In an attempt to find out what happens next, we need to read the signs the small surounding details…
On the bbc radio news at 1pm (almost the last mins)
They had a well known beeb jurnalist on the spot. Amoungst the useal bullshit he allways spouts pro izzy.
I heard the important point he made…
He stated that now bidens gone this week has been all about meeting leaders from other western countrys offering support for the izzys.
Then this important comment…
He said
“after this jurno week most of the media have been told to stand down and take a break. A holiday”
Now i read into that something very very ominous. What are they planning thats so horrendus that they’d prefer tbe jurnos not to bare witness.
———
sorry about my dreadfull spelling lately the stress has given me double vision problems.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 15:57 utc | 893

In an attempt to find out what happens next, we need to read the signs the small surounding details…
On the bbc radio news at 1pm (almost the last mins)
They had a well known beeb jurnalist on the spot. Amoungst the useal bullshit he allways spouts pro izzy.
I heard the important point he made…
He stated that now bidens gone this week has been all about meeting leaders from other western countrys offering support for the izzys.
Then this important comment…
He said
“after this jurno week most of the media have been told to stand down and take a break. A holiday”
Now i read into that something very very ominous. What are they planning thats so horrendus that they’d prefer tbe jurnos not to bare witness.
———
sorry about my dreadfull spelling lately the stress has given me double vision problems.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2023 15:57 utc | 894

ChasMark | Oct 19 2023 0:45 utc | 304
Alas ChasMark is correct about Allied bombing in WW2.
Sir Arthur Harris:
“The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive … should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany … the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories.
Had the Allies lost, their air chiefs would have undoubtedly faced war crimes trials, and some of them said as much themselves.
Another thing “our lot” did which is now bad form is ethnic cleansing in the form of massive forced population movements – Germans from East Prussia, the Baltic States, Pomerania, Czechoslovakia, Russia – the “Volga Germans”. Not to mention handing back Soviet prisoners to Stalin’s tender mercies. The only prisoners they DIDN’T send back were the Ukrainian SS Division.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Oct 19 2023 16:40 utc | 895

ChasMark | Oct 19 2023 0:45 utc | 304
Alas ChasMark is correct about Allied bombing in WW2.
Sir Arthur Harris:
“The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive … should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany … the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories.
Had the Allies lost, their air chiefs would have undoubtedly faced war crimes trials, and some of them said as much themselves.
Another thing “our lot” did which is now bad form is ethnic cleansing in the form of massive forced population movements – Germans from East Prussia, the Baltic States, Pomerania, Czechoslovakia, Russia – the “Volga Germans”. Not to mention handing back Soviet prisoners to Stalin’s tender mercies. The only prisoners they DIDN’T send back were the Ukrainian SS Division.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Oct 19 2023 16:40 utc | 896

It becomes more and more clear that Israel and it actions are more and more becoming detrimental for the US becomes more and more a liability.

Posted by: Mr. Market | Oct 19 2023 19:07 utc | 897

It becomes more and more clear that Israel and it actions are more and more becoming detrimental for the US becomes more and more a liability.

Posted by: Mr. Market | Oct 19 2023 19:07 utc | 898

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057

Posted by: JR | Oct 19 2023 19:27 utc | 899

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057

Posted by: JR | Oct 19 2023 19:27 utc | 900