Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 25, 2023
Ukraine’s Sudden High Air Losses Likely Caused By New Russian Missiles

I am not sure how valid this is but I am sure it is relevant:

Victor vicktop55 @vicktop55 – 16:58 UTC · Oct 24, 2023

Military expert Vladislav Shurygin: The Pentagon has become sharply concerned about the suddenly increased effectiveness of the Russian Aerospace Forces.

In two weeks, the Russians staged a real massacre in the Ukrainian sky. The Ukrainian Armed Forces lost at least 10 of their aircraft (according to other sources, 14).

Moreover, all of them were shot down far from the front line and outside the radius of Russian air defense systems, as well as outside the standard radius of Russian fighter missiles. Those pilots who were able to eject reported that until the moment their planes were hit, they did not receive warning information about the attack from the appropriate warning systems.

The Americans believe that the Russian Aerospace Forces have acquired new missiles capable of not only hitting targets at a great distance, but also, after launch, independently pursuing a target without illuminating it from the aircraft’s radar, using a radio signature to guide it (the target).

Now Americans carefully check this information and consider it critically important. Since, if it is confirmed, it means that the Russians have acquired a weapon that will neutralize all the advertised advantages of their new main fighter, the F-35.

Vladislav Shurygin is indeed a Russian 'military expert' who has had various appearances on Russian talk shows.

The claim that there is 'a real massacre in the Ukrainian sky' is valid if the recent daily reports of the Russian Ministry of Defense are near to reality. I for one believe they are.

The typical Ukrainian air-force loss rate over the first three quarters of this year was one to three air planes or helicopters per week.

Since the mid of October the Russian daily reports claimed, according to my notes, the shot down of:

  • 17 Ukrainian Mig-29 fighter aircraft
  • 2 Ukrainian SU-24 tactical bombers
  • 3 Ukrainian SU-25 close air support jets
  • 1 Ukrainian L-39 fighter jet trainer
  • 3 MI-8 transport helicopters

That is a total of 26 air assets over just 9 days!

If this is even near to the truth it is a catastrophic loss rate for the Ukrainian air force.

Is this even possible, one might ask. I believe it is. In October 2022, after a decades long development phase, media announced the first kill of a Ukrainian plane by a Russian R-37M long-range air-to-air missile:

The R-37 was developed from the R-33. For compatibility with aircraft that did not have the MiG-31's sophisticated radar, the semi-active seeker was replaced with a variant of the Agat 9B-1388 active seeker. Similarly, folding tail controls allow semi-conformal carriage on planes that are not as big as the MiG-31.

Mid-body strakes enhance lift and hence increase range. According to Defence Today, the range depends on the flight profile, from 80 nautical miles (150 km) for a direct shot to 215 nautical miles (398 km) for a cruise glide profile.

The R-37M designation has since been used for a modernized variant of the missile, also known as RVV-BD (Raketa Vozduh-Vozduh Bolyshoy Dalnosty, or Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile). R-37M's range exceeds 200 km, and it is capable of hypersonic speeds (~Mach 5). It will be carried by the modernized MiG-31BM interceptors and Su-35S and Su-57 multirole fighters. It is not known whether the long-range air-to-air missile for the Su-57, designated as Izdeliye 810, is a derivative of the R-37M.

The missile can attack targets at altitudes of 15–25,000 meters, guided semi-actively or actively through the Agat 9B-1388 system.

The R-37M is claimed to have a maximum reach of 400 kilometer (~250 miles) and a hypersonic speed of Mach 5-6. It can be fired from safe airspace, outside of any Ukrainian air-defense range, deep into Ukraine.

In February 2023 Ukraine claimed to have found the wreckage of an R-37M.

Modified Ukrainian air-planes have been used to fire British Storm Shadow missiles (and the similar French SCALP-EG) at Russian targets. I haven't found any recent report of their successful use.

Ukrainian air assets have to fly near to the ground to survive.

The sudden increase in Ukrainian air losses points to the introduction, in large numbers, of a new variant of the R-37M with an updated targeting capability and/or an even longer range.

The U.S. plans to introduce F-16s fighter jets with 'long range' (100 kilometer, 60 miles) AIM-120D air-to-air missiles to Ukraine. They are clearly inferior to Russian air force capabilities and can only contribute to the losses.

Comments

The US treats their armaments industry as a “jobs program”. Looks like a lot of Lockheed employees will be on the unemployment line if the F-35 hanger queen ever takes to the skies.

Posted by: Eric Blair | Oct 25 2023 6:23 utc | 1

The US treats their armaments industry as a “jobs program”. Looks like a lot of Lockheed employees will be on the unemployment line if the F-35 hanger queen ever takes to the skies.

Posted by: Eric Blair | Oct 25 2023 6:23 utc | 2

Two thoughts here:
Those pilots who were able to eject reported that until the moment their planes were hit, they did not receive warning information about the attack from the appropriate warning systems.
I am not an expert, but I don’t see how this is possilbe–if a Mach 5 (or even a Mach 1) missile hits you and you had no prior warning, how could you possibly have time to eject and survive?
Americans believe that the Russian Aerospace Forces have acquired new missiles capable of not only hitting targets at a great distance, but also, after launch, independently pursuing a target without illuminating it from the aircraft’s radar, using a radio signature to guide it (the target).
OK, this is theoretically possible, but why does the aircraft’s radar not pick up the radio signature?
Another thought, but this one falls more under the intellectually curious rather than the skeptical pile: Russia is winning big time. Why would it want to reveal such technology now, when the final outcome is beyond all doubt, and therby tip off its adversaries as to its level of technological sophistication?

Posted by: Holey Moley | Oct 25 2023 6:40 utc | 3

Two thoughts here:
Those pilots who were able to eject reported that until the moment their planes were hit, they did not receive warning information about the attack from the appropriate warning systems.
I am not an expert, but I don’t see how this is possilbe–if a Mach 5 (or even a Mach 1) missile hits you and you had no prior warning, how could you possibly have time to eject and survive?
Americans believe that the Russian Aerospace Forces have acquired new missiles capable of not only hitting targets at a great distance, but also, after launch, independently pursuing a target without illuminating it from the aircraft’s radar, using a radio signature to guide it (the target).
OK, this is theoretically possible, but why does the aircraft’s radar not pick up the radio signature?
Another thought, but this one falls more under the intellectually curious rather than the skeptical pile: Russia is winning big time. Why would it want to reveal such technology now, when the final outcome is beyond all doubt, and therby tip off its adversaries as to its level of technological sophistication?

Posted by: Holey Moley | Oct 25 2023 6:40 utc | 4

Good news! That means additional war trophies will be added to Russia’s war museum. I’m sure that will make for a great viewing.

Posted by: Escobar | Oct 25 2023 6:42 utc | 5

Good news! That means additional war trophies will be added to Russia’s war museum. I’m sure that will make for a great viewing.

Posted by: Escobar | Oct 25 2023 6:42 utc | 6

Holey Moley | Oct 25 2023 6:40 utc | 2
Most eject only once a missile has struck and badly damaged the aircraft, not before.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 6:48 utc | 7

Holey Moley | Oct 25 2023 6:40 utc | 2
Most eject only once a missile has struck and badly damaged the aircraft, not before.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 6:48 utc | 8

Thanks b, but other sources also propose that the increase is due to the use of the Su-57 (has stealth, will travel). So the Su-57 combined with the missile(s) you mention above will be terribly effective together.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 25 2023 6:49 utc | 9

Thanks b, but other sources also propose that the increase is due to the use of the Su-57 (has stealth, will travel). So the Su-57 combined with the missile(s) you mention above will be terribly effective together.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 25 2023 6:49 utc | 10

Dear NATO armaments manufacturers: so long, it’s been good to know ya.

Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Oct 25 2023 6:59 utc | 11

Dear NATO armaments manufacturers: so long, it’s been good to know ya.

Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Oct 25 2023 6:59 utc | 12

Antiaircraft missiles typically do not physically strike their targets. Instead, they are designed to explode near the target and damage the target with shrapnel.
This is why a pilot may be able to eject after the aircraft is damaged by a hypersonic missile.

Posted by: TimmyB | Oct 25 2023 7:07 utc | 13

Antiaircraft missiles typically do not physically strike their targets. Instead, they are designed to explode near the target and damage the target with shrapnel.
This is why a pilot may be able to eject after the aircraft is damaged by a hypersonic missile.

Posted by: TimmyB | Oct 25 2023 7:07 utc | 14

Rostec handed over the next batch of new multifunctional Su-35S fighters to the Russian Aerospace Forces.
4++ generation combat aircraft were manufactured at the aviation plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
The vehicles have undergone a series of ground and flight tests in various operating modes and have already flown to their place of duty.
Distinctive features of the aircraft are:
> a power plant based on new engines with a digital control system and controlled thrust vectoring, which can significantly improve the aircraft’s flight performance and maneuverability characteristics;
> long-range information and targeting systems;
> modern communication system and high-speed information exchange both between the aircraft and ground control points, and between aircraft;
> highly effective long-range air-to-air and air-to-surface guided weapons;
> highly effective electronic countermeasures and defense system.

https://t.me/geromanat/12767

More cutting-edge Su-57 jets enter Russia’s military service
Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has handed a new batch of fifth-generation Su-57 fighters to the Russian Ministry of Defense. According to the UAC, the warplanes went through a full cycle of factory tests and were also tested in various modes.
The Su-57 multirole fighter, which was developed by the Sukhoi company, is designed to destroy all types of air, ground and surface targets. The aircraft has a supersonic cruising speed of 2,400 km per hour, intra-fuselage weapons, radio-absorbing coating and the latest set of on-board equipment.

https://t.me/sitreports/16976

Posted by: Down South | Oct 25 2023 7:08 utc | 15

Rostec handed over the next batch of new multifunctional Su-35S fighters to the Russian Aerospace Forces.
4++ generation combat aircraft were manufactured at the aviation plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
The vehicles have undergone a series of ground and flight tests in various operating modes and have already flown to their place of duty.
Distinctive features of the aircraft are:
> a power plant based on new engines with a digital control system and controlled thrust vectoring, which can significantly improve the aircraft’s flight performance and maneuverability characteristics;
> long-range information and targeting systems;
> modern communication system and high-speed information exchange both between the aircraft and ground control points, and between aircraft;
> highly effective long-range air-to-air and air-to-surface guided weapons;
> highly effective electronic countermeasures and defense system.

https://t.me/geromanat/12767

More cutting-edge Su-57 jets enter Russia’s military service
Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has handed a new batch of fifth-generation Su-57 fighters to the Russian Ministry of Defense. According to the UAC, the warplanes went through a full cycle of factory tests and were also tested in various modes.
The Su-57 multirole fighter, which was developed by the Sukhoi company, is designed to destroy all types of air, ground and surface targets. The aircraft has a supersonic cruising speed of 2,400 km per hour, intra-fuselage weapons, radio-absorbing coating and the latest set of on-board equipment.

https://t.me/sitreports/16976

Posted by: Down South | Oct 25 2023 7:08 utc | 16

Holey Moley | Oct 25 2023 6:40 utc | 2
“Why would it want to reveal such technology now, when the final outcome is beyond all doubt, and therby tip off its adversaries as to its level of technological sophistication?”
Perhaps to make its adversaries think twice to start new big adventures in the Middle East (or elsewhere)?

Posted by: Michael | Oct 25 2023 7:10 utc | 17

Holey Moley | Oct 25 2023 6:40 utc | 2
“Why would it want to reveal such technology now, when the final outcome is beyond all doubt, and therby tip off its adversaries as to its level of technological sophistication?”
Perhaps to make its adversaries think twice to start new big adventures in the Middle East (or elsewhere)?

Posted by: Michael | Oct 25 2023 7:10 utc | 18

@vicktop55 I have that to be a solid account. Russian journalist based in Belarus.
Long range air to air missiles with passive guidance/seeking… very likely. Russia is far in advance of the west in these areas.
I read that post earlier today. I had noticed the lack of news on storm shadow leakers or strikes at soft targets. Some on twitter put that down to lack of missiles. The great increase in Ukraine/nato aircraft downed far from the frontlines gives a much better reason for lack of storm shadow strikes.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:12 utc | 19

@vicktop55 I have that to be a solid account. Russian journalist based in Belarus.
Long range air to air missiles with passive guidance/seeking… very likely. Russia is far in advance of the west in these areas.
I read that post earlier today. I had noticed the lack of news on storm shadow leakers or strikes at soft targets. Some on twitter put that down to lack of missiles. The great increase in Ukraine/nato aircraft downed far from the frontlines gives a much better reason for lack of storm shadow strikes.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:12 utc | 20

A real game changer wonder Waffen?

Posted by: jpc | Oct 25 2023 7:15 utc | 21

A real game changer wonder Waffen?

Posted by: jpc | Oct 25 2023 7:15 utc | 22

“I have that to be a solid account”…. should have read ‘I have found that to be a solid account’.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:17 utc | 23

“I have that to be a solid account”…. should have read ‘I have found that to be a solid account’.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:17 utc | 24

More and more North Korea seems to have been sane all the time. They have experience with the USA, and realize that USA is an enemy to be taken seriously, dead seriously.
It is time to change the world order.
So much should be clear to anyone.

Posted by: g wiltek | Oct 25 2023 7:20 utc | 25

More and more North Korea seems to have been sane all the time. They have experience with the USA, and realize that USA is an enemy to be taken seriously, dead seriously.
It is time to change the world order.
So much should be clear to anyone.

Posted by: g wiltek | Oct 25 2023 7:20 utc | 26

The US is no longer sending the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower Carrier Strike Group to the Eastern Mediterranean, but rather to the ‘Central Command area of responsibility’ which includes the Red Sea and Persian Gulf. This followed attacks on US forces in Syria and Iraq who were fired on by Iranian-backed militias. The US wishes to avoid backing its forces on the ground, especially if they are taken hostage by rebel militias. They don’t want a US ground war. There is also some evidence from remarks by US officials that they may be considering withdrawing US ground forces from Iraq, Jordan and Syria to avoid them being overwhelmed and taken hostage. According to John Helmer at Dances With Bears this signals an acknowledgement by the US of the vulnerability of US carrier groups to Russian Kinzhal missile attacks from the Black Sea. The Eisenhower Carrier Group moved to the Persian Gulf would be less of a target for the Kinzhal missiles which travel at Mach 8 and possess sophisticated targeting capabilities. They are virtually unstoppable. The US is extremely worried about the missile defense vulnerabilities of its naval forces. But the US is definitely itching for a war and I’m guessing long range ballistic missiles against Iran and, if necessary, Russia.
See also here

Posted by: Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:25 utc | 27

The US is no longer sending the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower Carrier Strike Group to the Eastern Mediterranean, but rather to the ‘Central Command area of responsibility’ which includes the Red Sea and Persian Gulf. This followed attacks on US forces in Syria and Iraq who were fired on by Iranian-backed militias. The US wishes to avoid backing its forces on the ground, especially if they are taken hostage by rebel militias. They don’t want a US ground war. There is also some evidence from remarks by US officials that they may be considering withdrawing US ground forces from Iraq, Jordan and Syria to avoid them being overwhelmed and taken hostage. According to John Helmer at Dances With Bears this signals an acknowledgement by the US of the vulnerability of US carrier groups to Russian Kinzhal missile attacks from the Black Sea. The Eisenhower Carrier Group moved to the Persian Gulf would be less of a target for the Kinzhal missiles which travel at Mach 8 and possess sophisticated targeting capabilities. They are virtually unstoppable. The US is extremely worried about the missile defense vulnerabilities of its naval forces. But the US is definitely itching for a war and I’m guessing long range ballistic missiles against Iran and, if necessary, Russia.
See also here

Posted by: Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:25 utc | 28

A few days ago a barfly posted a comment which referred/linked to some wide-ranging remarks by Simplicius the Thinker. The part which caught my attention was his assertion that when Russia’s military experiences an unexpected battlefield weapon failure, they analyse it to see if it can be improved.
I get the impression that the Christians try to make a perfect weapon, fall deeply in Love with it, and then mass-produce it with their fingers crossed. This routinely results in the West’s Wonder-weapons for Ukraine becoming redundant within a month or two.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 25 2023 7:30 utc | 29

A few days ago a barfly posted a comment which referred/linked to some wide-ranging remarks by Simplicius the Thinker. The part which caught my attention was his assertion that when Russia’s military experiences an unexpected battlefield weapon failure, they analyse it to see if it can be improved.
I get the impression that the Christians try to make a perfect weapon, fall deeply in Love with it, and then mass-produce it with their fingers crossed. This routinely results in the West’s Wonder-weapons for Ukraine becoming redundant within a month or two.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 25 2023 7:30 utc | 30

Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:25 utc | 14
Intermediate range missile production was restarted under Trump. His targets were Iran and China. I assume the US now has some of these in stock. Where these are placed who knows. At the time Australia started a “joint missile development and production” thing with the US for production of missiles in Australia. I assume that is only bullshit political terminology. I assume an agreement was made to base US missiles in northern Australia pointed at China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:34 utc | 31

Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:25 utc | 14
Intermediate range missile production was restarted under Trump. His targets were Iran and China. I assume the US now has some of these in stock. Where these are placed who knows. At the time Australia started a “joint missile development and production” thing with the US for production of missiles in Australia. I assume that is only bullshit political terminology. I assume an agreement was made to base US missiles in northern Australia pointed at China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:34 utc | 32

Posted by: Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:25 utc | 14
There’s a recent report US is deploying 12 Patriot and THAAD batteries (total, probably) throughout the Middle East. It seems they are attempting to defend all their outposts through Syria and Iraq.
It depends really on the level of organization of resistance groups in Iraq and Syria. If they are up to par, this effort of US to defend all its possessions could end up most of them becoming cut off from supplies and isolated. That would be something to behold.
Most likely the carrier in the Persian gulf was thought to provide air cover for US bases in these regions, and it probably can as long as they don’t fight directly with Iran. Otherwise it’s just a liability with huge value of US prestige ready to go down to the bottom.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 25 2023 7:38 utc | 33

Posted by: Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:25 utc | 14
There’s a recent report US is deploying 12 Patriot and THAAD batteries (total, probably) throughout the Middle East. It seems they are attempting to defend all their outposts through Syria and Iraq.
It depends really on the level of organization of resistance groups in Iraq and Syria. If they are up to par, this effort of US to defend all its possessions could end up most of them becoming cut off from supplies and isolated. That would be something to behold.
Most likely the carrier in the Persian gulf was thought to provide air cover for US bases in these regions, and it probably can as long as they don’t fight directly with Iran. Otherwise it’s just a liability with huge value of US prestige ready to go down to the bottom.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 25 2023 7:38 utc | 34

Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 25 2023 7:30 utc | 15
Russia’s ability to quickly analyze, adapt, produce, has become very apparent during the SMO.
Instead of mass producing wonder weapons that may or may not be effective under battlefield conditions, they have put a lot of emphasis in being able to adapt very quickly, to be able to quickly develop weapons and produce them as required, defensive or offensive.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:41 utc | 35

Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 25 2023 7:30 utc | 15
Russia’s ability to quickly analyze, adapt, produce, has become very apparent during the SMO.
Instead of mass producing wonder weapons that may or may not be effective under battlefield conditions, they have put a lot of emphasis in being able to adapt very quickly, to be able to quickly develop weapons and produce them as required, defensive or offensive.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:41 utc | 36

Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:34 utc | 16
As an Australian I can tell you our government is in La La Land. Completely clueless. They are forking out $380B for 4 submarines from the US and the Brits, the early ones being used US ones. The lead line is long and the outcomes overpriced and pathetic. No wonder the US and UK arms industries are cheering.
https://michaelwest.com.au/correction-paul-keating-aukus-worse-than-just-the-worst-deal-in-all-history/
Australia has also today agreed to send more ground troops to the ME. The only purpose can only be to wave the flag of unthinking camp followers.
They have previously agreed to send ageing F13s to Ukraine for a life span, I’m guessing, of two weeks.
Did I mention? We have signed up to buy F35s, a plane that has yet to decide whether it is a turkey or a lemon.
Idiots!

Posted by: Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:43 utc | 37

Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:34 utc | 16
As an Australian I can tell you our government is in La La Land. Completely clueless. They are forking out $380B for 4 submarines from the US and the Brits, the early ones being used US ones. The lead line is long and the outcomes overpriced and pathetic. No wonder the US and UK arms industries are cheering.
https://michaelwest.com.au/correction-paul-keating-aukus-worse-than-just-the-worst-deal-in-all-history/
Australia has also today agreed to send more ground troops to the ME. The only purpose can only be to wave the flag of unthinking camp followers.
They have previously agreed to send ageing F13s to Ukraine for a life span, I’m guessing, of two weeks.
Did I mention? We have signed up to buy F35s, a plane that has yet to decide whether it is a turkey or a lemon.
Idiots!

Posted by: Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:43 utc | 38

Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:43 utc | 19
F-35, yep. I have also read the submissions to the proposal. Submission 35 I think it is is well worth a read. Hopefully can still dig up a link if you have not seen it.
It is obvious now that with the eyes of the Australian sheeple fixated in fear on the evil China, the US is embarking on the systematic looting of Australia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:49 utc | 39

Damien | Oct 25 2023 7:43 utc | 19
F-35, yep. I have also read the submissions to the proposal. Submission 35 I think it is is well worth a read. Hopefully can still dig up a link if you have not seen it.
It is obvious now that with the eyes of the Australian sheeple fixated in fear on the evil China, the US is embarking on the systematic looting of Australia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 7:49 utc | 40

Didn’t Putin say last month Russia has weapons based on new physical principals??
So maybe these “new” missles are part of that package.
Also, stationing a carrier group in Persian Gulf won’t protect from Kizhal attack; they’ll just have jets release over the Caspian Sea.
https://sputnikglobe.com/20230912/what-does-putin-mean-by-weapons-based-on-new-physical-principles-1113316548.html

Posted by: Jerr | Oct 25 2023 7:58 utc | 41

Didn’t Putin say last month Russia has weapons based on new physical principals??
So maybe these “new” missles are part of that package.
Also, stationing a carrier group in Persian Gulf won’t protect from Kizhal attack; they’ll just have jets release over the Caspian Sea.
https://sputnikglobe.com/20230912/what-does-putin-mean-by-weapons-based-on-new-physical-principles-1113316548.html

Posted by: Jerr | Oct 25 2023 7:58 utc | 42

@Peter AU1
Great points, just in the last week there was a TG post of rule changes in RF military procurement to allow much more liberal integration of externally sourced (*cough* China) components into military products. This is much closer to the Iranian model so hopefully it’ll kick things up another notch.

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 25 2023 8:04 utc | 43

@Peter AU1
Great points, just in the last week there was a TG post of rule changes in RF military procurement to allow much more liberal integration of externally sourced (*cough* China) components into military products. This is much closer to the Iranian model so hopefully it’ll kick things up another notch.

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 25 2023 8:04 utc | 44

new missiles capable of not only hitting targets at a great distance, but also, after launch, independently pursuing a target without illuminating it from the aircraft’s radar – from: “Military expert Vladislav Shurygin” not the invention of active radarhoming warheads but the capacity of such radar to find smaller targets. It used to be simply “AWACS” killer but can now detect flying targets not only with lower RCS but home in on lower flying targets, filtering out scatter. It sounds to me like a change in the Agat 9B-1388 tech.
https://www.turdef.com/article/russia-fires-awacs-killer-r-37m-against-ukrainian-fighter-jets

Posted by: John Dowser | Oct 25 2023 8:06 utc | 45

new missiles capable of not only hitting targets at a great distance, but also, after launch, independently pursuing a target without illuminating it from the aircraft’s radar – from: “Military expert Vladislav Shurygin” not the invention of active radarhoming warheads but the capacity of such radar to find smaller targets. It used to be simply “AWACS” killer but can now detect flying targets not only with lower RCS but home in on lower flying targets, filtering out scatter. It sounds to me like a change in the Agat 9B-1388 tech.
https://www.turdef.com/article/russia-fires-awacs-killer-r-37m-against-ukrainian-fighter-jets

Posted by: John Dowser | Oct 25 2023 8:06 utc | 46

anon2020 | Oct 25 2023 8:04 utc | 22
I was not aware of that. Thanks. I would assume this is moving towards something like integration of mil tech and manufacturing between, at the minimum, Russia China and Iran. Three heads are better than one…

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 8:10 utc | 47

anon2020 | Oct 25 2023 8:04 utc | 22
I was not aware of that. Thanks. I would assume this is moving towards something like integration of mil tech and manufacturing between, at the minimum, Russia China and Iran. Three heads are better than one…

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 8:10 utc | 48

I’m willing to accept Russia has developed advanced air-to-air missile. The limiting factor is probably the number of missiles Russian factories are able to produce.
Now imagine for one moment what the Ukrainian skies would look like if air-to-air missile production was outsourced to China.

Posted by: Passerby | Oct 25 2023 8:27 utc | 49

I’m willing to accept Russia has developed advanced air-to-air missile. The limiting factor is probably the number of missiles Russian factories are able to produce.
Now imagine for one moment what the Ukrainian skies would look like if air-to-air missile production was outsourced to China.

Posted by: Passerby | Oct 25 2023 8:27 utc | 50

“[…] if modernized and expanded conventional U.S. forces are not capable of defeating Russia and China, then an expanded nuclear weapons capability must be able to.”
https://www.sott.net/article/485377-The-US-Congress-now-has-the-plan-Get-everybody-on-Earth-killed

Posted by: Blob | Oct 25 2023 8:40 utc | 51

“[…] if modernized and expanded conventional U.S. forces are not capable of defeating Russia and China, then an expanded nuclear weapons capability must be able to.”
https://www.sott.net/article/485377-The-US-Congress-now-has-the-plan-Get-everybody-on-Earth-killed

Posted by: Blob | Oct 25 2023 8:40 utc | 52

About a range of missiles: Russia is generation ahead of west (or even rest of the world) in missile fuels. Hyper sonic ones need very energetic fuel (densely packed) to achieve that range. Subsonic cruise missiles Russia have that go in range of 4000+ km (and by dimensions and weight are no significantly larger that western counterparts) also indicative “super” fuel Russia has.
About AA missile hits in that range against targets flying low: It is most likely data integration and remote guidance. No small missile can physically pack strong enough active radar to guide itself from that range, so other means (satellite? Russia has few new types in space lately) are detecting and transmitting target location corrections to missile mid flight. My guess, who knows, it is bleeding edge military secret.

Posted by: Abe | Oct 25 2023 9:06 utc | 53

About a range of missiles: Russia is generation ahead of west (or even rest of the world) in missile fuels. Hyper sonic ones need very energetic fuel (densely packed) to achieve that range. Subsonic cruise missiles Russia have that go in range of 4000+ km (and by dimensions and weight are no significantly larger that western counterparts) also indicative “super” fuel Russia has.
About AA missile hits in that range against targets flying low: It is most likely data integration and remote guidance. No small missile can physically pack strong enough active radar to guide itself from that range, so other means (satellite? Russia has few new types in space lately) are detecting and transmitting target location corrections to missile mid flight. My guess, who knows, it is bleeding edge military secret.

Posted by: Abe | Oct 25 2023 9:06 utc | 54

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/putin-russia-successfully-tested-nuclear-powered-missile-burevestnik-rcna119158
I see this story gaining traction if so it is no wonder the US is worried. First I have heard of this weapon but it changes everything in technology

Posted by: Scot1and | Oct 25 2023 9:13 utc | 55

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/putin-russia-successfully-tested-nuclear-powered-missile-burevestnik-rcna119158
I see this story gaining traction if so it is no wonder the US is worried. First I have heard of this weapon but it changes everything in technology

Posted by: Scot1and | Oct 25 2023 9:13 utc | 56

@Holey Moley #2
What b doesn’t expand on is that combat planes have a number of missile warning systems.
The F16, for example, has both IR and radar-lock warning systems.
Mig 29s, certainly at least the more modern versions and most likely, all of them, also have missile warning systems.
At first glance, it looks like there are protocols for existing systems to determine IR and radar guided attacking missiles for most aircraft. However, since Ukraine is using ex-Soviet equipment – the standard setup for this equipment is certainly known to Russia. As the above actual pilot notes above – there are specific thresholds set – by default probably – which determine when a given radar signal (or IR signature of an approaching missile) is determined to have achieved “lock”.
It would not surprise me if the Russian air force has reprogrammed the R37 missile to evade these standard parameters.
Thus it isn’t absolutely necessary to have some brand new tech as opposed to a very smart use of knowledge of the defense systems and a retuning of guidance systems to take advantage.
There are also additional wrinkles which the R37 has which make this even more interesting – the above excerpts notes that the R37 has both a cruise mode and semi-active guidance capability.
Cruise mode effectively allows some period of loiter capability; known Ukrainian operating zones (like where they launch Storm Shadows from) would be obvious places to loiter.
Semi-active guidance means guidance from a secondary radar source – no continuous radar emissions from the missile and likely no missile lock warning.
The R37 speed of Mach 5-6 = 3800 to 4600 mph means it can close say, 10 miles in 7.8 to 9.5 seconds, or 3 miles in 2 to 3 seconds – the latter would definitely not be enough time for a warning.
Now take the above and add some economics. Unlike US missiles which are horrendously expensive:
1) Pac3 = $4M
2) SM2 = $2M
3) ESSM = $787K to $987K
Russian missiles tend to be significantly cheaper than their Western equivalents. I wonder if they are cheap enough to be able to lose some just because they loiter too long before a target shows up.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 25 2023 9:47 utc | 57

@Holey Moley #2
What b doesn’t expand on is that combat planes have a number of missile warning systems.
The F16, for example, has both IR and radar-lock warning systems.
Mig 29s, certainly at least the more modern versions and most likely, all of them, also have missile warning systems.
At first glance, it looks like there are protocols for existing systems to determine IR and radar guided attacking missiles for most aircraft. However, since Ukraine is using ex-Soviet equipment – the standard setup for this equipment is certainly known to Russia. As the above actual pilot notes above – there are specific thresholds set – by default probably – which determine when a given radar signal (or IR signature of an approaching missile) is determined to have achieved “lock”.
It would not surprise me if the Russian air force has reprogrammed the R37 missile to evade these standard parameters.
Thus it isn’t absolutely necessary to have some brand new tech as opposed to a very smart use of knowledge of the defense systems and a retuning of guidance systems to take advantage.
There are also additional wrinkles which the R37 has which make this even more interesting – the above excerpts notes that the R37 has both a cruise mode and semi-active guidance capability.
Cruise mode effectively allows some period of loiter capability; known Ukrainian operating zones (like where they launch Storm Shadows from) would be obvious places to loiter.
Semi-active guidance means guidance from a secondary radar source – no continuous radar emissions from the missile and likely no missile lock warning.
The R37 speed of Mach 5-6 = 3800 to 4600 mph means it can close say, 10 miles in 7.8 to 9.5 seconds, or 3 miles in 2 to 3 seconds – the latter would definitely not be enough time for a warning.
Now take the above and add some economics. Unlike US missiles which are horrendously expensive:
1) Pac3 = $4M
2) SM2 = $2M
3) ESSM = $787K to $987K
Russian missiles tend to be significantly cheaper than their Western equivalents. I wonder if they are cheap enough to be able to lose some just because they loiter too long before a target shows up.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 25 2023 9:47 utc | 58

This post by b, and the subsequent comments by seasoned barflies (I guess before the trolls roll out of bed), is the perfect example of why I love this site. Even though the information contained is not yet fully substantiated, its evaluation here is from a community of educated people. This is what is completely lacking in the corporate media (and even in most alternative media). Thanks to all for these contributions.

Posted by: KMRIA | Oct 25 2023 10:01 utc | 59

This post by b, and the subsequent comments by seasoned barflies (I guess before the trolls roll out of bed), is the perfect example of why I love this site. Even though the information contained is not yet fully substantiated, its evaluation here is from a community of educated people. This is what is completely lacking in the corporate media (and even in most alternative media). Thanks to all for these contributions.

Posted by: KMRIA | Oct 25 2023 10:01 utc | 60

My repost from the Ukraine thread on this topic.
‘I think I’ll need to have more details about the individual engagements before believing the Russians have made a huge technological leap in missile/sensor technology that does not seem to have been reflected in the capabilities of similar platforms. I find prosaic over hyperbolic is best when speculating about Russian technological developments, as it is somewhat reflective of their attitude to design philosophy.’

Posted by: Milites | Oct 25 2023 10:22 utc | 61

My repost from the Ukraine thread on this topic.
‘I think I’ll need to have more details about the individual engagements before believing the Russians have made a huge technological leap in missile/sensor technology that does not seem to have been reflected in the capabilities of similar platforms. I find prosaic over hyperbolic is best when speculating about Russian technological developments, as it is somewhat reflective of their attitude to design philosophy.’

Posted by: Milites | Oct 25 2023 10:22 utc | 62

MiG-31 fighter jets carrying Kinzhal hypersonic missiles are ready for aerial patrols over the Black Sea.

Posted by: AI | Oct 25 2023 10:45 utc | 63

MiG-31 fighter jets carrying Kinzhal hypersonic missiles are ready for aerial patrols over the Black Sea.

Posted by: AI | Oct 25 2023 10:45 utc | 64

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 8:10 utc | 24
No worries, it’s this one I think.
There was a post ages ago (a year or more) that claimed pre-SMO drone development had been hampered by strict requirements that all components of military products be produced locally. Opening up the regulations should create a demand for components that can be sourced overseas initially and then produced locally if advantageous.
It’s actually in drone development that some of the most rapid development has been seen because of the great selection of RC technology outside of existing military procurement and production channels.
A lot of stuff that’s now ubiquitous might have been laughed out of the room 10 years ago.
https://t.me/ZandVchannel/83637

🇷🇺 Russian Defence Minister General of the Army Sergei Shoigu held a meeting at the National Centre for State Defence Control of the Russian Federation on issues related to supplies and prospects for the development of cannon artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems.
▪️ During the meeting, the head of the Russian military department noted the importance of the prompt production of artillery systems and ammunition for them.
▪️ ‘In the conditions of the special military operation it is especially important to quickly replenish stocks of means of defeat. The solution of this task directly depends on the ability of enterprises to increase the production of artillery systems, multiple-launch rocket systems, as well as to minimise the terms of their delivery to the troops,’ said Sergei Shoigu.
▪️ Russian Defence Minister stressed that federal executive bodies have taken measures to increase the production of artillery systems.
▪️ ‘Federal executive authorities have taken measures to increase their production. The Russian government has given the defence industry the right to use all reserves, including mobilisation capacities,’ said Sergei Shoigu.
▪️ The head of the Russian military department added that the Russian Defence Ministry has simplified the contracting procedure, reduced the scope of testing, and lowered the requirements for the selection of component parts, provided that the quality of the final products is maintained.
▪️ ‘Today we will discuss how work is organised to develop and increase the production of cannon artillery, multiple-launch rocket systems, and high-precision ammunition, taking into account the additional demand of the Armed Forces,’ said the Russian Defence Minister.
Oct 17 at 13:55

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 25 2023 10:47 utc | 65

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 25 2023 8:10 utc | 24
No worries, it’s this one I think.
There was a post ages ago (a year or more) that claimed pre-SMO drone development had been hampered by strict requirements that all components of military products be produced locally. Opening up the regulations should create a demand for components that can be sourced overseas initially and then produced locally if advantageous.
It’s actually in drone development that some of the most rapid development has been seen because of the great selection of RC technology outside of existing military procurement and production channels.
A lot of stuff that’s now ubiquitous might have been laughed out of the room 10 years ago.
https://t.me/ZandVchannel/83637

🇷🇺 Russian Defence Minister General of the Army Sergei Shoigu held a meeting at the National Centre for State Defence Control of the Russian Federation on issues related to supplies and prospects for the development of cannon artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems.
▪️ During the meeting, the head of the Russian military department noted the importance of the prompt production of artillery systems and ammunition for them.
▪️ ‘In the conditions of the special military operation it is especially important to quickly replenish stocks of means of defeat. The solution of this task directly depends on the ability of enterprises to increase the production of artillery systems, multiple-launch rocket systems, as well as to minimise the terms of their delivery to the troops,’ said Sergei Shoigu.
▪️ Russian Defence Minister stressed that federal executive bodies have taken measures to increase the production of artillery systems.
▪️ ‘Federal executive authorities have taken measures to increase their production. The Russian government has given the defence industry the right to use all reserves, including mobilisation capacities,’ said Sergei Shoigu.
▪️ The head of the Russian military department added that the Russian Defence Ministry has simplified the contracting procedure, reduced the scope of testing, and lowered the requirements for the selection of component parts, provided that the quality of the final products is maintained.
▪️ ‘Today we will discuss how work is organised to develop and increase the production of cannon artillery, multiple-launch rocket systems, and high-precision ammunition, taking into account the additional demand of the Armed Forces,’ said the Russian Defence Minister.
Oct 17 at 13:55

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 25 2023 10:47 utc | 66

Hallo b,
I am not convinced that the numbers are due to
“…suddenly increased effectiveness of Russian aerospace forces…”
the vast majority of shot-downs are attributable to air defense facilities/units/systems
MoD distinguishes in its reports between Air defense facilities ( or Air defense units; or Russian air defense systems… ) and Fighter Aviation ( or Fighter jets )
and since 14.10.2023, out of 26 ONLY 2 kills go to the account of the Fighter Aviation
( 1 MIG-29 – 19.10. and 1 SU-24 – 21.10. )
to the claimed statement of Vladislav Shurygin
“… all of them were shot down far from the front line and outside the radius of Russian air defense systems, as well as outside the standard radius of Russian fighter missiles…”
from the MoD are usually also given the locations of the shot-downs ( except for the 7 MIG-29 on 20.10.2023 )
so he could have list the distances to the frontline 🙂
( even if his 10-14 kills don’t match the 26 from MoD )
If anything, this indicates improvements in ground-based air defense systems.

Posted by: ghiwen | Oct 25 2023 10:58 utc | 67

Hallo b,
I am not convinced that the numbers are due to
“…suddenly increased effectiveness of Russian aerospace forces…”
the vast majority of shot-downs are attributable to air defense facilities/units/systems
MoD distinguishes in its reports between Air defense facilities ( or Air defense units; or Russian air defense systems… ) and Fighter Aviation ( or Fighter jets )
and since 14.10.2023, out of 26 ONLY 2 kills go to the account of the Fighter Aviation
( 1 MIG-29 – 19.10. and 1 SU-24 – 21.10. )
to the claimed statement of Vladislav Shurygin
“… all of them were shot down far from the front line and outside the radius of Russian air defense systems, as well as outside the standard radius of Russian fighter missiles…”
from the MoD are usually also given the locations of the shot-downs ( except for the 7 MIG-29 on 20.10.2023 )
so he could have list the distances to the frontline 🙂
( even if his 10-14 kills don’t match the 26 from MoD )
If anything, this indicates improvements in ground-based air defense systems.

Posted by: ghiwen | Oct 25 2023 10:58 utc | 68

b, That is a total of 26 air assets over just 9 days!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/+++++
Shoigu told us today 24 in 5 days. I am assuming b then 2 over the next 4 days.

Posted by: AI | Oct 25 2023 11:02 utc | 69

b, That is a total of 26 air assets over just 9 days!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/+++++
Shoigu told us today 24 in 5 days. I am assuming b then 2 over the next 4 days.

Posted by: AI | Oct 25 2023 11:02 utc | 70

This sounds all fine and dandy, but I was under the impression that Ukraine’s Air Force had already pretty much been incapacitated.

Posted by: Johnny Boy | Oct 25 2023 11:09 utc | 71

This sounds all fine and dandy, but I was under the impression that Ukraine’s Air Force had already pretty much been incapacitated.

Posted by: Johnny Boy | Oct 25 2023 11:09 utc | 72

Johnny Boy @ 36:
Jets are currently being supplied by eastern European nations, at least until they have no more to offer after the Russians have shot them all out of the sky.
Then the Americans really will have to deliver the F-16s and F-35s and we will finally know how well (or not) the F-35s can deliver on over 20 years of investment of billions of green paper.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Oct 25 2023 11:25 utc | 73

Johnny Boy @ 36:
Jets are currently being supplied by eastern European nations, at least until they have no more to offer after the Russians have shot them all out of the sky.
Then the Americans really will have to deliver the F-16s and F-35s and we will finally know how well (or not) the F-35s can deliver on over 20 years of investment of billions of green paper.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Oct 25 2023 11:25 utc | 74

Hi,
A little bit off topic, but does anyone know what happened to Erwan Castel’s TG channel? It seems to have gone private?

Posted by: Moloko | Oct 25 2023 11:30 utc | 75

Hi,
A little bit off topic, but does anyone know what happened to Erwan Castel’s TG channel? It seems to have gone private?

Posted by: Moloko | Oct 25 2023 11:30 utc | 76

Here is a short video-clip with Defense Minister Shoigu in which he allegedly tells some soldiers: “We have new weapon system, that shot down 24 Ukrainian airplane within the 5 days.”

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2023 11:48 utc | 77

Here is a short video-clip with Defense Minister Shoigu in which he allegedly tells some soldiers: “We have new weapon system, that shot down 24 Ukrainian airplane within the 5 days.”

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2023 11:48 utc | 78

In another thread I mentioned I was curious about the slaughter in the Ukraine skies.
Two situations seem to be working side by side:
1) specially the plane shot near Odessa, Ukraine probably lost its Soviet era layered defense, we’ll be seeing more RF fighters probing and getting the opportunistic kill when possible (with or without new air to air missiles, RF already has the edge there)
2) All the others, apparently by air defense , this must be split in two components :
A) Against massive attacks AFU will probably try to counter with airforce, specially if RF is using it strongly
B) in a bulge that might mean sending fighters well within a strong AA area
C) the question should be why the sacrifice (after seeing the first ones being shot) how bad the situation to choose that level of losses
None of the points above precludes missile improvements , but I’d be surprised if that was the central point.
My 2 cents

Posted by: Newbie | Oct 25 2023 12:15 utc | 79

In another thread I mentioned I was curious about the slaughter in the Ukraine skies.
Two situations seem to be working side by side:
1) specially the plane shot near Odessa, Ukraine probably lost its Soviet era layered defense, we’ll be seeing more RF fighters probing and getting the opportunistic kill when possible (with or without new air to air missiles, RF already has the edge there)
2) All the others, apparently by air defense , this must be split in two components :
A) Against massive attacks AFU will probably try to counter with airforce, specially if RF is using it strongly
B) in a bulge that might mean sending fighters well within a strong AA area
C) the question should be why the sacrifice (after seeing the first ones being shot) how bad the situation to choose that level of losses
None of the points above precludes missile improvements , but I’d be surprised if that was the central point.
My 2 cents

Posted by: Newbie | Oct 25 2023 12:15 utc | 80

Here is a short video-clip with Defense Minister Shoigu in which he allegedly tells some soldiers: “We have new weapon system, that shot down 24 Ukrainian airplane within the 5 days.”
Posted by: b | Oct 25 2023 11:48 utc | 39
And there we have it, forget what I said before, apparently there is a new AA in town
100 theories are not worth 1 fact

Posted by: Newbie | Oct 25 2023 12:18 utc | 81

Here is a short video-clip with Defense Minister Shoigu in which he allegedly tells some soldiers: “We have new weapon system, that shot down 24 Ukrainian airplane within the 5 days.”
Posted by: b | Oct 25 2023 11:48 utc | 39
And there we have it, forget what I said before, apparently there is a new AA in town
100 theories are not worth 1 fact

Posted by: Newbie | Oct 25 2023 12:18 utc | 82

Posted by: AI | Oct 25 2023 11:02 utc | 35

b, That is a total of 26 air assets over just 9 days!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/+++++
Shoigu told us today 24 in 5 days. I am assuming b then 2 over the next 4 days.

when did you start counting the days ?
b has obviously started on 16.10.2023, because at least between 07.-15.10. no shot-downs has taken place
with these figures, the discussion about 2 is more or less beside the point !!!
btw: you can check it for yours self at:
https://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country.htm
and it whould be nice if you provide a link like:
https://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12482901@egNews

…Russian Defence Minister drew attention of the servicemen to great losses of Ukrainian Air Force in the past week: ‘Our air defence systems intercepted 24 aircraft in five days’…

Posted by: ghiwen | Oct 25 2023 12:24 utc | 83

Posted by: AI | Oct 25 2023 11:02 utc | 35

b, That is a total of 26 air assets over just 9 days!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/+++++
Shoigu told us today 24 in 5 days. I am assuming b then 2 over the next 4 days.

when did you start counting the days ?
b has obviously started on 16.10.2023, because at least between 07.-15.10. no shot-downs has taken place
with these figures, the discussion about 2 is more or less beside the point !!!
btw: you can check it for yours self at:
https://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country.htm
and it whould be nice if you provide a link like:
https://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12482901@egNews

…Russian Defence Minister drew attention of the servicemen to great losses of Ukrainian Air Force in the past week: ‘Our air defence systems intercepted 24 aircraft in five days’…

Posted by: ghiwen | Oct 25 2023 12:24 utc | 84

You have to wonder whether AFU has got a new influx of fighter aircraft from Poland or somewhere else. On the other hand, they might be committing them closer to support their river crossing attempt in Kherson, and to support Avdeevka might be a sign of desperation. Either way, shooting them down will probably reduce AFU opportunities to attack Crimea. There will still be attacks, but that many less.
From today:

Russian air defence units intercepted two MiG-29 aircraft, one Su-25 ground-attack aircraft, and one L-39 combat training aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force close to Krasnoarmeysk (Donetsk People’s Republic), Kazachyi Lageri (Kherson region), and Sinelnikovo (Dnepropetrovsk region).

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 25 2023 12:30 utc | 85

You have to wonder whether AFU has got a new influx of fighter aircraft from Poland or somewhere else. On the other hand, they might be committing them closer to support their river crossing attempt in Kherson, and to support Avdeevka might be a sign of desperation. Either way, shooting them down will probably reduce AFU opportunities to attack Crimea. There will still be attacks, but that many less.
From today:

Russian air defence units intercepted two MiG-29 aircraft, one Su-25 ground-attack aircraft, and one L-39 combat training aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force close to Krasnoarmeysk (Donetsk People’s Republic), Kazachyi Lageri (Kherson region), and Sinelnikovo (Dnepropetrovsk region).

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 25 2023 12:30 utc | 86

CIA via Washington Post confirms assets in UKR operating against RU:
“Ukrainian spies with deep ties to CIA wage shadow war against Russia”
By Greg Miller and Isabelle Khurshudyan
October 23, 2023
https://archive.ph/Ka395#selection-357.0-357.68
this is a long read
“This article is based on interviews with more than two dozen current and former Ukrainian, U.S. and Western intelligence and security officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity citing security concerns as well as the sensitivity of the subject. The pressure on Kyiv to score victories against Russia and find ways to deter further aggression create incentives to exaggerate the record and capabilities of Ukraine’s services. The Post vetted key details with multiple sources including Western officials with access to independent streams of intelligence.
The CIA declined to comment.”
“The missions have involved elite teams of Ukrainian operatives drawn from directorates that were formed, trained and equipped in close partnership with the CIA, according to current and former Ukrainian and U.S. officials. Since 2015, the CIA has spent tens of millions of dollars to transform Ukraine’s Soviet-formed services into potent allies against Moscow, officials said. The agency has provided Ukraine with advanced surveillance systems, trained recruits at sites in Ukraine as well as the United States, built new headquarters for departments in Ukraine’s military intelligence agency, and shared intelligence on a scale that would have been unimaginable before Russia illegally annexed Crimea and fomented a separatist war in eastern Ukraine. The CIA maintains a significant presence in Kyiv, officials said.”
“The extent of the CIA’s involvement with Ukraine’s security services has not previously been disclosed. U.S. intelligence officials stressed that the agency has had no involvement in targeted killing operations by Ukrainian agencies, and that its work has focused on bolstering those services’ abilities to gather intelligence on a dangerous adversary. A senior intelligence official said that “any potential operational concerns have been conveyed clearly to the Ukrainian services.”

Posted by: AG | Oct 25 2023 12:41 utc | 87

CIA via Washington Post confirms assets in UKR operating against RU:
“Ukrainian spies with deep ties to CIA wage shadow war against Russia”
By Greg Miller and Isabelle Khurshudyan
October 23, 2023
https://archive.ph/Ka395#selection-357.0-357.68
this is a long read
“This article is based on interviews with more than two dozen current and former Ukrainian, U.S. and Western intelligence and security officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity citing security concerns as well as the sensitivity of the subject. The pressure on Kyiv to score victories against Russia and find ways to deter further aggression create incentives to exaggerate the record and capabilities of Ukraine’s services. The Post vetted key details with multiple sources including Western officials with access to independent streams of intelligence.
The CIA declined to comment.”
“The missions have involved elite teams of Ukrainian operatives drawn from directorates that were formed, trained and equipped in close partnership with the CIA, according to current and former Ukrainian and U.S. officials. Since 2015, the CIA has spent tens of millions of dollars to transform Ukraine’s Soviet-formed services into potent allies against Moscow, officials said. The agency has provided Ukraine with advanced surveillance systems, trained recruits at sites in Ukraine as well as the United States, built new headquarters for departments in Ukraine’s military intelligence agency, and shared intelligence on a scale that would have been unimaginable before Russia illegally annexed Crimea and fomented a separatist war in eastern Ukraine. The CIA maintains a significant presence in Kyiv, officials said.”
“The extent of the CIA’s involvement with Ukraine’s security services has not previously been disclosed. U.S. intelligence officials stressed that the agency has had no involvement in targeted killing operations by Ukrainian agencies, and that its work has focused on bolstering those services’ abilities to gather intelligence on a dangerous adversary. A senior intelligence official said that “any potential operational concerns have been conveyed clearly to the Ukrainian services.”

Posted by: AG | Oct 25 2023 12:41 utc | 88

Here’s BORZZIKMAN’s take on it:
https://youtu.be/H7K0NCFGZHQ
https://youtu.be/evzz2dW_yvA

Posted by: blueswede | Oct 25 2023 12:47 utc | 89

Here’s BORZZIKMAN’s take on it:
https://youtu.be/H7K0NCFGZHQ
https://youtu.be/evzz2dW_yvA

Posted by: blueswede | Oct 25 2023 12:47 utc | 90

13 – I don’t think they are insane, and suspicion of the USA is in any case not insane, it’s good sense.

Posted by: Waldorf | Oct 25 2023 12:59 utc | 91

13 – I don’t think they are insane, and suspicion of the USA is in any case not insane, it’s good sense.

Posted by: Waldorf | Oct 25 2023 12:59 utc | 92

Posted by: blueswede | Oct 25 2023 12:47 utc | 45
Seems there are multifold factors at play here. Su-57 coating is highly efficient, enabling it to fly much closer to airborne radars, which also enables it to fly much closer to the point of action.
R-37M missile has a very long range, which means they can potentially operate very deep behind enemy lines with less risk.
Wonder if these aircraft can also be used as airborne radar platforms to feed data into air defense systems? They could potentially use the fighter now flying close to the front, as a relay to guide SAM missiles, too.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 25 2023 13:00 utc | 93

Posted by: blueswede | Oct 25 2023 12:47 utc | 45
Seems there are multifold factors at play here. Su-57 coating is highly efficient, enabling it to fly much closer to airborne radars, which also enables it to fly much closer to the point of action.
R-37M missile has a very long range, which means they can potentially operate very deep behind enemy lines with less risk.
Wonder if these aircraft can also be used as airborne radar platforms to feed data into air defense systems? They could potentially use the fighter now flying close to the front, as a relay to guide SAM missiles, too.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 25 2023 13:00 utc | 94

Today’s Daily Briefing adds to the toll:

Russian air defence units intercepted two MiG-29 aircraft, one Su-25 ground-attack aircraft, and one L-39 combat training aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force close to Krasnoarmeysk (Donetsk People’s Republic), Kazachyi Lageri (Kherson region), and Sinelnikovo (Dnepropetrovsk region)

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2023 13:02 utc | 95

Today’s Daily Briefing adds to the toll:

Russian air defence units intercepted two MiG-29 aircraft, one Su-25 ground-attack aircraft, and one L-39 combat training aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force close to Krasnoarmeysk (Donetsk People’s Republic), Kazachyi Lageri (Kherson region), and Sinelnikovo (Dnepropetrovsk region)

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2023 13:02 utc | 96

Damien 14 “the US is itching for a war” no, the US doesn’t “war” we’re looking for a bombing campaign. (not arguing against your points too strongly)

Posted by: scottindallas | Oct 25 2023 13:14 utc | 97

Damien 14 “the US is itching for a war” no, the US doesn’t “war” we’re looking for a bombing campaign. (not arguing against your points too strongly)

Posted by: scottindallas | Oct 25 2023 13:14 utc | 98

someone said Russia is winning in Ukraine, why introduce new weapons. Well, while they’re winning, Ukraine with US/NATO guidance HAS fired a few rockets deep into Russia, little tactical effect, just terrorism really. But, that’s something Russia WOULD want to stop.

Posted by: scottindallas | Oct 25 2023 13:16 utc | 99

someone said Russia is winning in Ukraine, why introduce new weapons. Well, while they’re winning, Ukraine with US/NATO guidance HAS fired a few rockets deep into Russia, little tactical effect, just terrorism really. But, that’s something Russia WOULD want to stop.

Posted by: scottindallas | Oct 25 2023 13:16 utc | 100