Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 3, 2023
Ukraine SitRep: Bad Demographics – End of Support

Via a Responsible Statecraft piece I came onto a EU study that tried to predict the future demographics of Ukraine's population.

The War and the Future of Ukraine’s Population

The study is from early 2022 and is based on Ukrainian casualty numbers from only the very first month of the war. Their worst case scenario was this:

Our third and fourth scenarios assume that the war will continue for a month or longer so that further casualties and refugees are expected. We assume the following casualties: 5,000 deaths among soldiers and 1,500 civilian deaths based on the current trends. There will be 5 million refugees, which is an estimate by UNHCR (UNHCR 2022a)

The real refugee numbers are twice as high and the casualty numbers, wounded and dead, are of course about 100 times higher than the study assumed. It was thus not worth the money that had been spend on it.

Still, some graphs in it are usable.

Yesterday I shortly discussed the op-ed by the former British Minister of Defense Ben Wallace in which he asserts:

The average age of the soldiers at the front is over 40.

He then urges the Ukrainian government to throw more young men into the meat grinder.

My response to Wallace was this:

The young Ukrainians are gone. They either have fled from Ukraine or are wounded, disabled or died. You can not mobilize what is no longer there.

Unfortunately the real situation is worse then I had thought. The EU demographic study included this graph:

Ukraine’s population by age and sex in 2020

bigger

The 'age pyramid' in Ukraine isn't a pyramid. In 2020 there was a huge lack of 15 to 20 years old people. They were simply not there. They never existed. The number of newborns around 2000 must have been horribly low.

The reason for that was likely the serious downturn of Ukraine's economy after it had separated itself from the Soviet Union.


Ukraine’s GDP(PPP)

bigger

It took a decade long severe recession for Ukraine to find a bottom for its economy. Bad economic times and low expectations of betterment had influenced the desire of its people to procreate. Two more downturns followed during the global recession around 2008 and due to the 2014 Maidan coup and the civil war following it.

Thus when the war started there were only half as many people of 20 year age than 40 year old ones. It is no wonder then that few of younger age are seen at the front line.

There is still one measure Ukraine might take to increase the numbers of young soldiers. There currently are exemptions from mobilization for those who study at a university. If Ukraine would draft these if could probably find a few ten-thousand additional soldiers. But it would also strip itself of its future elite.

The already bad demographic prediction some 20 years out would then look even worse than they currently do.

Early this year Ukraine's birthrate had hit a new low:

To keep a population steady, research shows it's necessary to have an average of about 2.1 babies per family — known as a replacement rate. In Ukraine, fertility rates have remained under that threshold since 1990. Over the last two decades, the rate has often dropped below what experts call a "very low" fertility rate of 1.3, when a population begins to shrink at an ever increasing rate. In January 2021, a year before Russia's full-scale invasion, the fertility rate was 1.16, according to national statistics.

The birthrate has since dropped further and is now the lowest one in the world:

Birthrates in Ukraine have fallen by 28% in the first half of 2023, compared to the same period prior to the war, marking the most significant drop since Ukraine gained its independence in 1991, The Wall Street Journal reported on Sept. 25.

Due to the ongoing war, millions of Ukrainian women with children were forced to leave the country, while men aged 18 to 60 were prohibited from leaving. As a result, many couples were physically separated, while others delayed starting families, the report says.

In the first half of 2023, there were 96,755 children born in Ukraine. Since 2013, the country's fertility rate has been dropping by approximately 7% per year.

The population of Ukraine will shrink further. In 1990 Ukraine had a population of more than 50 million people. Twenty years from now the country will have less than maybe 25 million inhabitants. This even if all refugees return. A large if that this is unlikely to happen.

Support for Ukraine is shrinking:

As Russia has become more bloodyminded, Ukraine’s allies seem caught in their own conflicting boundary conditions. There is no willingness to mobilize to defend Ukraine. There isn’t even a serious effort to ramp up military production to an adequate level to match, let alone surpass, Russia’s output.

And that’s before getting to the fact that Ukraine as a county has become a very costly ward of all its backers.

Yesterday a meeting of the EU's foreign ministers on further military assistance for Ukraine ended without results (machine translation):

The foreign ministers of the EU countries at today's summit in Kiev could not agree on the allocation of military assistance to Ukraine in the amount of 5 billion euros for 2024.

This was announced at a press conference following the event by EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Josep Borrel.

The EU's budget for 2023 was €168.6 billion. €5 billion are peanuts but the EU countries could not unite over it. The senseless generosity has reached the end of the possible.

Borrel predicted the inevitable outcome:

Earlier, EU Foreign Policy Chief Josep Borrel said that the cessation of military support for Kiev from the West will lead to a quick end to the conflict in Ukraine, but as a result, the country will lose its independence.

A quick end to the conflict is what all sane people should hope for.

Look at the demographics and economics above and ask yourself what 30 years of 'independence' have done for Ukraine.

To end it could well be the best that could ever happen to it. Unfortunately for it Russia is unlikely to step in and to subsidize its further existence.

Comments

Rybar’s estimate…
https://twitter.com/rybar_force/status/1709250164685185157
493,678 KIA TOTAL… 427,231 … AFU 46,419… National Guard 14,346…. Nationalist Batallions
5,682…. Foreign Mercenaries

Given a ratio of KIA:wounded of 1:2 likely there are ~ 1 million wounded
This totals 1.5 million effectives lost since the onset of hostilities…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 3 2023 18:42 utc | 201

Rybar’s estimate…
https://twitter.com/rybar_force/status/1709250164685185157
493,678 KIA TOTAL… 427,231 … AFU 46,419… National Guard 14,346…. Nationalist Batallions
5,682…. Foreign Mercenaries

Given a ratio of KIA:wounded of 1:2 likely there are ~ 1 million wounded
This totals 1.5 million effectives lost since the onset of hostilities…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 3 2023 18:42 utc | 202

Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 18:30 utc | 93–
Keeping in mind that Russia (or “POOOOOTIN”) never wanted or intended to annex any territory other than the far east and south of Ukraine and only for the purpose of R2P, there is going to be plenty of resource rich land left to Kiev when it’s over.
Your non-factual assertion looks like a loser given current Russian sentiment. Shoigu says 2025 will be the year the SMO ends; let’s see what the situation is when that time occurs.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 18:45 utc | 203

Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 18:30 utc | 93–
Keeping in mind that Russia (or “POOOOOTIN”) never wanted or intended to annex any territory other than the far east and south of Ukraine and only for the purpose of R2P, there is going to be plenty of resource rich land left to Kiev when it’s over.
Your non-factual assertion looks like a loser given current Russian sentiment. Shoigu says 2025 will be the year the SMO ends; let’s see what the situation is when that time occurs.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 18:45 utc | 204

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:45 utc | 81

The section of society that doesnt reproduce at all is liberal elites. I may not like it, but these are, in principle intelligent people. But they dont reproduce.

—-
This observation has been around for a while. It becomes more obvious in smaller populations, like the city of Singapore. Lee Kuan Yew, the long-serving Prime Minister of Singapore and his successors battled over this.

In 1983, Lee sparked the “Great Marriage Debate” when he encouraged Singapore men to choose highly educated women as wives. He was concerned that a large number of graduate women were unmarried. Some sections of the population, including graduate women, were upset by his views. Nevertheless, a match-making agency, the Social Development Unit (SDU), was set up to promote socialising among men and women graduates. In the Graduate Mothers Scheme, Lee also introduced incentives such as tax rebates, schooling, and housing priorities for graduate mothers who had three or four children, in a reversal of the over-successful “Stop at Two” family planning campaign in the 1960s and 1970s.
The uproar over the proposal led to a swing of 12.9 per cent against the PAP government in the 1984 general election. In 1985, some especially controversial portions of the policy, that gave education and housing priorities to educated women, were abandoned or modified.
By the late 1990s the birth rate had fallen so low that Lee’s successor Goh Chok Tong extended these incentives to all married women, and gave even more incentives, such as the “baby bonus” scheme.
“>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew

I think almost everyone agrees that more educated women, with more opportunities, will forgo children, or even marraige. Whether one thinks that is good or bad is a more contentious topic.

Posted by: john brewster | Oct 3 2023 18:47 utc | 205

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:45 utc | 81

The section of society that doesnt reproduce at all is liberal elites. I may not like it, but these are, in principle intelligent people. But they dont reproduce.

—-
This observation has been around for a while. It becomes more obvious in smaller populations, like the city of Singapore. Lee Kuan Yew, the long-serving Prime Minister of Singapore and his successors battled over this.

In 1983, Lee sparked the “Great Marriage Debate” when he encouraged Singapore men to choose highly educated women as wives. He was concerned that a large number of graduate women were unmarried. Some sections of the population, including graduate women, were upset by his views. Nevertheless, a match-making agency, the Social Development Unit (SDU), was set up to promote socialising among men and women graduates. In the Graduate Mothers Scheme, Lee also introduced incentives such as tax rebates, schooling, and housing priorities for graduate mothers who had three or four children, in a reversal of the over-successful “Stop at Two” family planning campaign in the 1960s and 1970s.
The uproar over the proposal led to a swing of 12.9 per cent against the PAP government in the 1984 general election. In 1985, some especially controversial portions of the policy, that gave education and housing priorities to educated women, were abandoned or modified.
By the late 1990s the birth rate had fallen so low that Lee’s successor Goh Chok Tong extended these incentives to all married women, and gave even more incentives, such as the “baby bonus” scheme.
“>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew

I think almost everyone agrees that more educated women, with more opportunities, will forgo children, or even marraige. Whether one thinks that is good or bad is a more contentious topic.

Posted by: john brewster | Oct 3 2023 18:47 utc | 206

A highly modern society with a voluntarily shrinking population (say, Japan or China or Russia) is not a problem and in fact is a necessity for better quality of life for all.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 3 2023 18:13 utc | 88
This is roughly what I had in mind. That said, one should distinguish a “natural process” with a deep crisis when people loose hope for the future of children they may have. For example, women under 30 should be discouraged from reading stuff like that
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/robert-gates-america-china-russia-dysfunctional-superpower

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 3 2023 18:50 utc | 207

A highly modern society with a voluntarily shrinking population (say, Japan or China or Russia) is not a problem and in fact is a necessity for better quality of life for all.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 3 2023 18:13 utc | 88
This is roughly what I had in mind. That said, one should distinguish a “natural process” with a deep crisis when people loose hope for the future of children they may have. For example, women under 30 should be discouraged from reading stuff like that
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/robert-gates-america-china-russia-dysfunctional-superpower

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 3 2023 18:50 utc | 208

S Brennan@96
Last time Turkey was on the “West’s” side.
Tom_Q_Collins@95&97
The answer is ‘in a far better state’.
The issues to which you refer are all ramps that… I’ll just leave it at that with the solitary observation that your list omits the elephantine presence of the daddy of them all which is anti-semitism.

Posted by: bevin | Oct 3 2023 18:50 utc | 209

S Brennan@96
Last time Turkey was on the “West’s” side.
Tom_Q_Collins@95&97
The answer is ‘in a far better state’.
The issues to which you refer are all ramps that… I’ll just leave it at that with the solitary observation that your list omits the elephantine presence of the daddy of them all which is anti-semitism.

Posted by: bevin | Oct 3 2023 18:50 utc | 210

Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:01 utc | 68 …NO sign that a 1200ppm co2 in the athmosphere causes any problems to…humans…
Objection: The German GESTIS database (OSHA purpose) notes (Yandex Translate):

…Inhalation of 0.1 vol.% CO2 [i.e. 1000 ppm -OE] has already led to head pressure and headaches for sensitive people who were in closed, artificially air-conditioned rooms…

And disruptive-technologies.com informs:

…study that investigated workplace productivity and environmental conditions that specifically targeted office workers found that:
* Workers were able to work up to 60% faster in lower CO2 concentrations (my emphasis)
* High CO2 levels can cause offices to feel ‘stuffy’, which is mistakenly put down to high temperatures
* An increased intake of CO2 can lead to poor decision making, slower reaction times, and increased tiredness among employees
The evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, clearly identifies that higher CO2 concentrations have an adverse effect on employee well-being and productivity.

Posted by: OttoE | Oct 3 2023 18:51 utc | 211

Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:01 utc | 68 …NO sign that a 1200ppm co2 in the athmosphere causes any problems to…humans…
Objection: The German GESTIS database (OSHA purpose) notes (Yandex Translate):

…Inhalation of 0.1 vol.% CO2 [i.e. 1000 ppm -OE] has already led to head pressure and headaches for sensitive people who were in closed, artificially air-conditioned rooms…

And disruptive-technologies.com informs:

…study that investigated workplace productivity and environmental conditions that specifically targeted office workers found that:
* Workers were able to work up to 60% faster in lower CO2 concentrations (my emphasis)
* High CO2 levels can cause offices to feel ‘stuffy’, which is mistakenly put down to high temperatures
* An increased intake of CO2 can lead to poor decision making, slower reaction times, and increased tiredness among employees
The evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, clearly identifies that higher CO2 concentrations have an adverse effect on employee well-being and productivity.

Posted by: OttoE | Oct 3 2023 18:51 utc | 212

Russian rape. Yawn.

Posted by: Giyane | Oct 3 2023 18:55 utc | 213

Russian rape. Yawn.

Posted by: Giyane | Oct 3 2023 18:55 utc | 214

Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 3 2023 18:42 utc | 100 … 1.5 million effectives lost
Some of the 1 million wounded will recover. A 1 million estimate for the irretrieveable ones (KIA + permanently disabled) is more realistic yet likewise horrendous.

Posted by: OttoE | Oct 3 2023 18:57 utc | 215

Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 3 2023 18:42 utc | 100 … 1.5 million effectives lost
Some of the 1 million wounded will recover. A 1 million estimate for the irretrieveable ones (KIA + permanently disabled) is more realistic yet likewise horrendous.

Posted by: OttoE | Oct 3 2023 18:57 utc | 216

So why do civilizations collapse when populations shrink?
-there isnt any reason for people to strive for anything
-innovation freezes
-a lot less economic activity and econ. Downturn
-the enemies at the gates fall in
-few kids lead to a culture of hypersecurity and hypersensitivity
-its unclear if a shrinking population leads to decadence (which is the end of all civilizations) or vice versa but there is a close link
-…
-in the current situation: our whole systems are based on a lot of young people paying taxes for everything around including pensions. But thats just additional to the historic pattern of declining populations.
Its actually quite hard to think of anything positive that comes from declining populations. Unless of course you are either a communist or fascist who thinks the solution is treating people like sheep and deny human psychology.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 18:57 utc | 217

So why do civilizations collapse when populations shrink?
-there isnt any reason for people to strive for anything
-innovation freezes
-a lot less economic activity and econ. Downturn
-the enemies at the gates fall in
-few kids lead to a culture of hypersecurity and hypersensitivity
-its unclear if a shrinking population leads to decadence (which is the end of all civilizations) or vice versa but there is a close link
-…
-in the current situation: our whole systems are based on a lot of young people paying taxes for everything around including pensions. But thats just additional to the historic pattern of declining populations.
Its actually quite hard to think of anything positive that comes from declining populations. Unless of course you are either a communist or fascist who thinks the solution is treating people like sheep and deny human psychology.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 18:57 utc | 218

@babbel
I am not argueing with you about the quality of food.
My familys farm had 64ha (dont know how many acres that is) and was one of the biggest around.
At the same time you are telling me that we cant feed the planet? Or that the quality of food is bad?
Well, if so, its intentional.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:32
Of course it’s intentional Cap’n Obvious. How much book learnin’ did it take you to figure that out? 64ha is easily converted via the internet btw.
To address your points that I was addressing, abundance of food and even an excess of what’s needed. As in food waste, yet so little of it finds it’s way to the ever growing needs at food banks. But that’s another issue
For someone who claims a farm background you seem nonchalant about what is being done to the land, the future of land use and the culture as well in the name of Central Planning by those who think it’s their right to determine everything up to and including life style choice and what people think.
The more people are forced off the land and into indebted servitude in the urban paradises you seem to advocate, the more control goes up the ladder, not down.
There is a natural order to things that should be respected and those who are prone to Messianic tendencies are not Gods though they may think themselves so.
Back to the land and what they (corporate and gov’t partnership) are doing to it, with your blessing???
Off the top of my head; pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, top killing chemicals to enable early harvests, sprout inhibitors to kill the natural seeds, GMO franken seeds and forcing their crop of choice by abandoning millenia old crop rotation practices that nurture the soil. 3 crop rotation abandoned for same crop year after year.
Would you like fries with that?

Posted by: bubbles | Oct 3 2023 18:57 utc | 219

@babbel
I am not argueing with you about the quality of food.
My familys farm had 64ha (dont know how many acres that is) and was one of the biggest around.
At the same time you are telling me that we cant feed the planet? Or that the quality of food is bad?
Well, if so, its intentional.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:32
Of course it’s intentional Cap’n Obvious. How much book learnin’ did it take you to figure that out? 64ha is easily converted via the internet btw.
To address your points that I was addressing, abundance of food and even an excess of what’s needed. As in food waste, yet so little of it finds it’s way to the ever growing needs at food banks. But that’s another issue
For someone who claims a farm background you seem nonchalant about what is being done to the land, the future of land use and the culture as well in the name of Central Planning by those who think it’s their right to determine everything up to and including life style choice and what people think.
The more people are forced off the land and into indebted servitude in the urban paradises you seem to advocate, the more control goes up the ladder, not down.
There is a natural order to things that should be respected and those who are prone to Messianic tendencies are not Gods though they may think themselves so.
Back to the land and what they (corporate and gov’t partnership) are doing to it, with your blessing???
Off the top of my head; pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, top killing chemicals to enable early harvests, sprout inhibitors to kill the natural seeds, GMO franken seeds and forcing their crop of choice by abandoning millenia old crop rotation practices that nurture the soil. 3 crop rotation abandoned for same crop year after year.
Would you like fries with that?

Posted by: bubbles | Oct 3 2023 18:57 utc | 220

At the risk of being off-topic, I think I can summarize the current mindset and impetus-for-war of the Western governments.
It’s about control of the world’s natural resources.
Russia sits atop of a massive oil/gas/mineral resource, and the Western governments covet these resources.
I’m not sure who coined the expression: “It’s about the oil, stupid.”, but they revealed their ultimate motivation with that one simple phrase.
The other commonly referred to phrase is of course “All wars are banker wars.”

Posted by: AJ | Oct 3 2023 19:00 utc | 221

At the risk of being off-topic, I think I can summarize the current mindset and impetus-for-war of the Western governments.
It’s about control of the world’s natural resources.
Russia sits atop of a massive oil/gas/mineral resource, and the Western governments covet these resources.
I’m not sure who coined the expression: “It’s about the oil, stupid.”, but they revealed their ultimate motivation with that one simple phrase.
The other commonly referred to phrase is of course “All wars are banker wars.”

Posted by: AJ | Oct 3 2023 19:00 utc | 222

Orgel | Oct 3 2023 14:54 utc | 23
*** Zero growth and reducing the population to fight climate change are globofascist agitprop.***
Zero growth is not a problem if the economic system is not based on debt-finance.
But the system of the “west” — which the IMF and NATO intend to dictatorially impose worldwide — is very much based on iredeemable and accumulating debt.
As for reducing the population — well, as soon as it seems to drop from and unsupportable high — oh, shout the liberals and capitalists, we must have (even more) mass immigration.
So there’s absolutely no damned point in a “Western” country reducing native population.
That reduction just gets negated anyway…..
Little wonder some people reckon there is a deliberate replacement of indigenous people.

Posted by: Cynic | Oct 3 2023 19:02 utc | 223

Orgel | Oct 3 2023 14:54 utc | 23
*** Zero growth and reducing the population to fight climate change are globofascist agitprop.***
Zero growth is not a problem if the economic system is not based on debt-finance.
But the system of the “west” — which the IMF and NATO intend to dictatorially impose worldwide — is very much based on iredeemable and accumulating debt.
As for reducing the population — well, as soon as it seems to drop from and unsupportable high — oh, shout the liberals and capitalists, we must have (even more) mass immigration.
So there’s absolutely no damned point in a “Western” country reducing native population.
That reduction just gets negated anyway…..
Little wonder some people reckon there is a deliberate replacement of indigenous people.

Posted by: Cynic | Oct 3 2023 19:02 utc | 224

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 18:45 utc | 101
Please point us to where ‘Russia’ or any Russian agent of state has declared (or postulated) in any official capacity that either 1) the plan or 2) a contingency would lead to annexation of portions of Ukraine into the RF more than the greater Donbas region and the ‘land bridge’ entailing Mariupol to Crimea.
If you’re going to decry “fact-free assertions” then at least please try to provide some countervailing facts.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 225

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 18:45 utc | 101
Please point us to where ‘Russia’ or any Russian agent of state has declared (or postulated) in any official capacity that either 1) the plan or 2) a contingency would lead to annexation of portions of Ukraine into the RF more than the greater Donbas region and the ‘land bridge’ entailing Mariupol to Crimea.
If you’re going to decry “fact-free assertions” then at least please try to provide some countervailing facts.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 226

Sometimes I miss your perspective on these issues from other perspectives. It’s a bit like a closed circle of seeing.
No criticism – just sometimes elsewhere, others notice other important details.
Look here: (you have to use a translator, but now it works decently).
https://www.klubinteligencjipolskiej.pl/2023/10/%e2%96%a0-calkowity-koniec-istnienia-banderowskiej-ukrainy-bedzie-dobry-nie-tylko-dla-polski-%e2%96%a0/
Read the publication and the comments below – just like here, only from Poland. (and this is not the Polish mainstream).
Look how Poles outside the Polish government see it.
For once, look at other sources than usual.
I especially encourage b, karlof1, Dr. George W. Oprisko, Down South, ….
I’m interested in your opinions

Posted by: nc | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 227

Sometimes I miss your perspective on these issues from other perspectives. It’s a bit like a closed circle of seeing.
No criticism – just sometimes elsewhere, others notice other important details.
Look here: (you have to use a translator, but now it works decently).
https://www.klubinteligencjipolskiej.pl/2023/10/%e2%96%a0-calkowity-koniec-istnienia-banderowskiej-ukrainy-bedzie-dobry-nie-tylko-dla-polski-%e2%96%a0/
Read the publication and the comments below – just like here, only from Poland. (and this is not the Polish mainstream).
Look how Poles outside the Polish government see it.
For once, look at other sources than usual.
I especially encourage b, karlof1, Dr. George W. Oprisko, Down South, ….
I’m interested in your opinions

Posted by: nc | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 228

Seems New York Times has learned a new term: elastic defense.
So, apparently this mythical elastic defense has led to the crushing of Nato’s vassal army. Of course, this would be something the British and Pentagon would have never heard about, because they have always been on the offensive against goat herders in Afghanistan and rice farmers in Vietnam.
The cherry on the cake is Nato is running out of ammo.
https://twitter.com/djuric_zlatko/status/1709276375842955540

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 3 2023 19:10 utc | 229

Seems New York Times has learned a new term: elastic defense.
So, apparently this mythical elastic defense has led to the crushing of Nato’s vassal army. Of course, this would be something the British and Pentagon would have never heard about, because they have always been on the offensive against goat herders in Afghanistan and rice farmers in Vietnam.
The cherry on the cake is Nato is running out of ammo.
https://twitter.com/djuric_zlatko/status/1709276375842955540

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 3 2023 19:10 utc | 230

Posted by: bevin | Oct 3 2023 18:50 utc | 104
Hmmm…and I suppose that’s an accurate addition in most threads. I just haven’t seen it yet in this one.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:11 utc | 231

Posted by: bevin | Oct 3 2023 18:50 utc | 104
Hmmm…and I suppose that’s an accurate addition in most threads. I just haven’t seen it yet in this one.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:11 utc | 232

@Orgel | Oct 3 2023 16:20 utc | 49
I had the same ideas. In eastern parts of eu the agriculture was much more developed before the 90s. Today is small and primitive, mostly depends on weather, all irrigation installations were stolen long time ago and sold as scrap metal. All local grown seeds selected over decades are gone, now it’s only imports modified to not grow again to buy more seeds. Animals are also in small numbers and filled with medications by law. Also eu laws limit the number of pigs or chickens a family can have for their own use. Yet somehow they say it’s not enough food. I guess Billy Gates has to sell that synthetic meat he makes to someone

Posted by: rk | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 233

@Orgel | Oct 3 2023 16:20 utc | 49
I had the same ideas. In eastern parts of eu the agriculture was much more developed before the 90s. Today is small and primitive, mostly depends on weather, all irrigation installations were stolen long time ago and sold as scrap metal. All local grown seeds selected over decades are gone, now it’s only imports modified to not grow again to buy more seeds. Animals are also in small numbers and filled with medications by law. Also eu laws limit the number of pigs or chickens a family can have for their own use. Yet somehow they say it’s not enough food. I guess Billy Gates has to sell that synthetic meat he makes to someone

Posted by: rk | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 234

@OttoE
And yet masking was wonderfull? How many ppm do you have under a mask if a room with closed windows lead to 1000ppm?
The rest of the passages you site are “can lead to”, “can… in sensitive people”
But i am not arguing about minor (negative) influence of higher co2 for humans. (1000ppm would be ideal for most plants though) but just lets be serious. Its hardly an influence that ends life on earth. Remember 30 years ago workplaces were filled with cigarette dust. Sometimes you couldnt see two meters.
@bubbles
What makes you think i am arguing against you? All i wanna point out is that “we cant feed the world” is a dumb argument cause we could feed the world 3times over if we wanted to.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 235

@OttoE
And yet masking was wonderfull? How many ppm do you have under a mask if a room with closed windows lead to 1000ppm?
The rest of the passages you site are “can lead to”, “can… in sensitive people”
But i am not arguing about minor (negative) influence of higher co2 for humans. (1000ppm would be ideal for most plants though) but just lets be serious. Its hardly an influence that ends life on earth. Remember 30 years ago workplaces were filled with cigarette dust. Sometimes you couldnt see two meters.
@bubbles
What makes you think i am arguing against you? All i wanna point out is that “we cant feed the world” is a dumb argument cause we could feed the world 3times over if we wanted to.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 236

Orgel #108
Well, let’s put your theory into practice: we have several countries where population is shrinking right now, some of them pretty rapidly … say, Italy, Japan, China, most of Europe barring immigration, etc.. Are the negatives you claim happening in those nations?
There’s a logical fallacy at the heart of your argument. Theoretically, the earth could host tens of billions of human beings. If every possible piece of land was converted to farms and every part of the ocean was farmed for human food and all competing nature eliminated, we could possibly have more than a hundred billion humans on earth, with mega cities everywhere. Call it “petri-dish earth” …
Would this be a desired state of existence for you? A state of minimal natural habitat and maximal sheer human numbers? Or do you agree that there is a lesser than maximal ideal number of people that promotes advancement in arts and sciences and welfare but does so while also allowing for privacy, environmental protection and restoration, and sheer room to roam … you know, quality of life.
With hundreds of thousands, soon to be millions, trying to break down the fences at the US southern border and Europe’s southern coasts, I believe we have already far exceeded that desired population level.

Posted by: Caliman | Oct 3 2023 19:19 utc | 237

Orgel #108
Well, let’s put your theory into practice: we have several countries where population is shrinking right now, some of them pretty rapidly … say, Italy, Japan, China, most of Europe barring immigration, etc.. Are the negatives you claim happening in those nations?
There’s a logical fallacy at the heart of your argument. Theoretically, the earth could host tens of billions of human beings. If every possible piece of land was converted to farms and every part of the ocean was farmed for human food and all competing nature eliminated, we could possibly have more than a hundred billion humans on earth, with mega cities everywhere. Call it “petri-dish earth” …
Would this be a desired state of existence for you? A state of minimal natural habitat and maximal sheer human numbers? Or do you agree that there is a lesser than maximal ideal number of people that promotes advancement in arts and sciences and welfare but does so while also allowing for privacy, environmental protection and restoration, and sheer room to roam … you know, quality of life.
With hundreds of thousands, soon to be millions, trying to break down the fences at the US southern border and Europe’s southern coasts, I believe we have already far exceeded that desired population level.

Posted by: Caliman | Oct 3 2023 19:19 utc | 238

If McCarthy gets dumped, I think this could gravely damage Ukraine. They get no money for 45 days and after that, Republicans shut down the government for a while. Miss Lindsay wants a deal for the border coupled with Ukraine money – which may happen eventually. Meanwhile, a narrative troll on The Hill says the war has to end before the end of 2023. It might be hard for Congress to campaign with the Ukraine albatross around their necks.

Posted by: Eighthman | Oct 3 2023 19:23 utc | 239

If McCarthy gets dumped, I think this could gravely damage Ukraine. They get no money for 45 days and after that, Republicans shut down the government for a while. Miss Lindsay wants a deal for the border coupled with Ukraine money – which may happen eventually. Meanwhile, a narrative troll on The Hill says the war has to end before the end of 2023. It might be hard for Congress to campaign with the Ukraine albatross around their necks.

Posted by: Eighthman | Oct 3 2023 19:23 utc | 240

Demographics isn’t the only problem: 80 % of the value created in Ukraine was created in the now-Russian areas. 90 % should Russia add Odessa to their portfolio.
While that might leave “Human resources”: There is a shortage of (affordable) IT- and high-Tech experts all over Europe. Any Ukrainian expert even remotely interested in moving can easily multiply their current salary by simply emigrating. As for the next generation – there isn’t one, with Ukraine now sending students to the front.
No human resources left after the war, no natural resources either, with the mines, minerals and rich soils for agriculture either destroyed (mostly by Ukraine, with Urainium-poison, unexploded cluster ammunition and massive mine fields (prepared since 2014, while the Russians only had a couple of months to prepare their defenses!).
All that in Europe’s poorest country, that couldn’t even afford to pay pensions, build infrastructure or even fix potholes in the roads before the war. A place where nobody would want to move to, to help rebuilding.

Posted by: Marvin | Oct 3 2023 19:26 utc | 241

Demographics isn’t the only problem: 80 % of the value created in Ukraine was created in the now-Russian areas. 90 % should Russia add Odessa to their portfolio.
While that might leave “Human resources”: There is a shortage of (affordable) IT- and high-Tech experts all over Europe. Any Ukrainian expert even remotely interested in moving can easily multiply their current salary by simply emigrating. As for the next generation – there isn’t one, with Ukraine now sending students to the front.
No human resources left after the war, no natural resources either, with the mines, minerals and rich soils for agriculture either destroyed (mostly by Ukraine, with Urainium-poison, unexploded cluster ammunition and massive mine fields (prepared since 2014, while the Russians only had a couple of months to prepare their defenses!).
All that in Europe’s poorest country, that couldn’t even afford to pay pensions, build infrastructure or even fix potholes in the roads before the war. A place where nobody would want to move to, to help rebuilding.

Posted by: Marvin | Oct 3 2023 19:26 utc | 242

In other related news, a group of “gay furry” hackers has breached a NATO server and leaked 3,000 files on Telegram.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/siegedsec-nato-hack/
Maybe our resident “furry” Inkan1969 could consult with the furry community to confirm or deny?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:28 utc | 243

In other related news, a group of “gay furry” hackers has breached a NATO server and leaked 3,000 files on Telegram.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/siegedsec-nato-hack/
Maybe our resident “furry” Inkan1969 could consult with the furry community to confirm or deny?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:28 utc | 244

El.Lissitsky 74
YCNMIU. Just when it looked as though USUKIS was going to feel shame about Hunka, they pull out their main legal defence against USUKIS supporting Nazism.
Well this might be a case of AI logic not quite understanding the human issues. Russia sacrificed 20 million lives to defeat the Nazis for the world but the Russians were the bad guys.
The Collective West including the Collective Nazis exterminated that 20 million souls because Russian Communism is the paramount evil.
The Islamist proxies were promised their own Islamic State for destroying Gadaffi and Assad. That promise is Still live. Azov proxies are promised a Nazi homeland in Galicia for fighting against Russia.
How long did Islamic State survive after the promise was granted?
Then with Libya and Syria destroyed every local proxy available set about eliminating Daesh. Will the British and US Middle classes notice any changes?

Posted by: Giyane | Oct 3 2023 19:28 utc | 245

El.Lissitsky 74
YCNMIU. Just when it looked as though USUKIS was going to feel shame about Hunka, they pull out their main legal defence against USUKIS supporting Nazism.
Well this might be a case of AI logic not quite understanding the human issues. Russia sacrificed 20 million lives to defeat the Nazis for the world but the Russians were the bad guys.
The Collective West including the Collective Nazis exterminated that 20 million souls because Russian Communism is the paramount evil.
The Islamist proxies were promised their own Islamic State for destroying Gadaffi and Assad. That promise is Still live. Azov proxies are promised a Nazi homeland in Galicia for fighting against Russia.
How long did Islamic State survive after the promise was granted?
Then with Libya and Syria destroyed every local proxy available set about eliminating Daesh. Will the British and US Middle classes notice any changes?

Posted by: Giyane | Oct 3 2023 19:28 utc | 246

@cynic
I dont wanna go in the debt system for now. Maybe another time.
If your population grows by 1% your economy MUST grow 1% as well. Why? You need to produce 1% more of everything to keep everything like it is. You need 1% more shoes, socks, rice etc.
(No money or debt supply involved yet)
Do you argue with that logic?
In a situation where the population grows, you typically get INNOVATION. because until your x% surplus population produces what it needs for themselves they have the choice between working x% more or find something that is more productive. Furthermore everybody who wants to sell something knows that he can sell whatever he offers to MORE customers down the line and thus has optimistic assumptions about the future.
You get the logic?
Based on a totally stable population zero growth means zero innovation!!ZERO!
in order to get anything new you need to have a) that what exists b) that what comes into being.
Once you start with any B) there is a + b which is more than a alone. In other words: growth.
Zero growth means in plain english: a central agency that plans every single step in an economy and a society.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:30 utc | 247

@cynic
I dont wanna go in the debt system for now. Maybe another time.
If your population grows by 1% your economy MUST grow 1% as well. Why? You need to produce 1% more of everything to keep everything like it is. You need 1% more shoes, socks, rice etc.
(No money or debt supply involved yet)
Do you argue with that logic?
In a situation where the population grows, you typically get INNOVATION. because until your x% surplus population produces what it needs for themselves they have the choice between working x% more or find something that is more productive. Furthermore everybody who wants to sell something knows that he can sell whatever he offers to MORE customers down the line and thus has optimistic assumptions about the future.
You get the logic?
Based on a totally stable population zero growth means zero innovation!!ZERO!
in order to get anything new you need to have a) that what exists b) that what comes into being.
Once you start with any B) there is a + b which is more than a alone. In other words: growth.
Zero growth means in plain english: a central agency that plans every single step in an economy and a society.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:30 utc | 248

One last thought on the subject of those who assume leadership positions as masters of our 3rd rock from the Sun in terms of population growth and disbursement.
I would bet you a dollar that said betters were having a conversation at some place on high with mucho security, discussing population issues, too many here, too few there and someone mused; would it be a bad thing to make them mingle?
Said better continued, says you know I own a significant stake in meat production and various down stream entities and while visiting one of my holdings the farm manager told me we needed to introduce more breeds into our commercial herd as cross breeding offers multiple advantages. Increased resistance to disease, better feed to weight conversion and if you choose the right breeds, easier births which reduces veterinary expenses. In human terms, stronger, faster, cheaper, work longer.
Have I grown too cynical in my old age? If so it’s mostly because of attacks on the nuclear family and cui bono?

Posted by: bubbles | Oct 3 2023 19:33 utc | 249

One last thought on the subject of those who assume leadership positions as masters of our 3rd rock from the Sun in terms of population growth and disbursement.
I would bet you a dollar that said betters were having a conversation at some place on high with mucho security, discussing population issues, too many here, too few there and someone mused; would it be a bad thing to make them mingle?
Said better continued, says you know I own a significant stake in meat production and various down stream entities and while visiting one of my holdings the farm manager told me we needed to introduce more breeds into our commercial herd as cross breeding offers multiple advantages. Increased resistance to disease, better feed to weight conversion and if you choose the right breeds, easier births which reduces veterinary expenses. In human terms, stronger, faster, cheaper, work longer.
Have I grown too cynical in my old age? If so it’s mostly because of attacks on the nuclear family and cui bono?

Posted by: bubbles | Oct 3 2023 19:33 utc | 250

Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 112–
Both Patrushev and Medvedev have stated such and Putin has alluded to such an outcome on several occasions. I report those statements when they occur which is why I know of them. Most are present at my VK page.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 19:49 utc | 251

Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 112–
Both Patrushev and Medvedev have stated such and Putin has alluded to such an outcome on several occasions. I report those statements when they occur which is why I know of them. Most are present at my VK page.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 19:49 utc | 252

The common denominator of all arguments for war remains.
It is a battle for global natural resources.
As to demographics, logistics, and societal consequences for war, then the argument that Western governments must resort to forced military conscription (i.e., a military draft) seems to be the next logical step.
I suspect that adherence to a military draft will create massive resistance and noncompliance within USA/EU society.
To the last man, indeed.

Posted by: AJ | Oct 3 2023 19:50 utc | 253

The common denominator of all arguments for war remains.
It is a battle for global natural resources.
As to demographics, logistics, and societal consequences for war, then the argument that Western governments must resort to forced military conscription (i.e., a military draft) seems to be the next logical step.
I suspect that adherence to a military draft will create massive resistance and noncompliance within USA/EU society.
To the last man, indeed.

Posted by: AJ | Oct 3 2023 19:50 utc | 254

@caliman
1) its not my theory
2) yes, countries like italy, japan, europe as a whole are in decline. China is new to the game since the decline started later.
3) yes migration is the main attempt to stop the collapse. Espescially in Europe with our welfare systems. And you can look to japan where the government is officially warning of the coming collapse due to the shrinking population and look for yourselve what they have already tried to do to reverse it.
As to the scenario of 100 billion people. No i dont want this future. But we are a bit far off this scenario, arent we?
I am disgusted by the idea to be in a position to decide the question “how many people should there be?”
I mean who has the right to decide this question and who with a shred of humility really wants to act upon such a decision? The question itself fills me with horror. Its hybris. Its like being staling sitting over piles of names deciding who has a right to live and who has to die just evan more insane and crazy and megalomaniac.
Unless you come up with a reliable number with which the entire world is doomed if crossed (no guessing, no “maybe”, no “could”, no ifs) i call it for what it is: hybris.
Maybe, just maybe, there are some things out there that should not be controlled or managed.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:52 utc | 255

@caliman
1) its not my theory
2) yes, countries like italy, japan, europe as a whole are in decline. China is new to the game since the decline started later.
3) yes migration is the main attempt to stop the collapse. Espescially in Europe with our welfare systems. And you can look to japan where the government is officially warning of the coming collapse due to the shrinking population and look for yourselve what they have already tried to do to reverse it.
As to the scenario of 100 billion people. No i dont want this future. But we are a bit far off this scenario, arent we?
I am disgusted by the idea to be in a position to decide the question “how many people should there be?”
I mean who has the right to decide this question and who with a shred of humility really wants to act upon such a decision? The question itself fills me with horror. Its hybris. Its like being staling sitting over piles of names deciding who has a right to live and who has to die just evan more insane and crazy and megalomaniac.
Unless you come up with a reliable number with which the entire world is doomed if crossed (no guessing, no “maybe”, no “could”, no ifs) i call it for what it is: hybris.
Maybe, just maybe, there are some things out there that should not be controlled or managed.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:52 utc | 256

@122
the polish, hungarian, ukriainian nazis who stayed home assisted in the holocaust…..
can’t add racial hatred’s to get a star!

Posted by: paddy | Oct 3 2023 20:09 utc | 257

@122
the polish, hungarian, ukriainian nazis who stayed home assisted in the holocaust…..
can’t add racial hatred’s to get a star!

Posted by: paddy | Oct 3 2023 20:09 utc | 258

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 19:49 utc | 125
Genuinely appreciate the reply, but I was hoping you might be able to briefly summarize a few of the possible options here. I’m sure your VK site is full of a lot of useful info, but I don’t really have a lot of free time to do searches through voluminous catalogs and such. I will say that I appreciate your occasional posting of excerpts from Russian officials’ speeches here, but I honestly don’t recall anything about *legitimate* statements from them regarding potential land annexation(s) beyond the areas I named and which Russia mostly controls at this time.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 20:17 utc | 259

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 19:49 utc | 125
Genuinely appreciate the reply, but I was hoping you might be able to briefly summarize a few of the possible options here. I’m sure your VK site is full of a lot of useful info, but I don’t really have a lot of free time to do searches through voluminous catalogs and such. I will say that I appreciate your occasional posting of excerpts from Russian officials’ speeches here, but I honestly don’t recall anything about *legitimate* statements from them regarding potential land annexation(s) beyond the areas I named and which Russia mostly controls at this time.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 20:17 utc | 260

Bit of thread but just in from The Canada Files Newsletter
Chrystia Freeland: Canada’s fascist queen
After Chrystia Freeland was seen smiling at a Ukrainian Nazi being honoured in Canada’s parliament, commentators have waffled on her politics.
Marthad Umucyaba shows that Freeland is a fascist who’s tried to cover up her family history & Western supremacism 👇
https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/chrystia-freeland-canadas-fascist-queen
f
Main site: somw very useful stuff for those interestes in Canada’s foreign policy

Posted by: Don Firineach | Oct 3 2023 20:18 utc | 261

Bit of thread but just in from The Canada Files Newsletter
Chrystia Freeland: Canada’s fascist queen
After Chrystia Freeland was seen smiling at a Ukrainian Nazi being honoured in Canada’s parliament, commentators have waffled on her politics.
Marthad Umucyaba shows that Freeland is a fascist who’s tried to cover up her family history & Western supremacism 👇
https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/chrystia-freeland-canadas-fascist-queen
f
Main site: somw very useful stuff for those interestes in Canada’s foreign policy

Posted by: Don Firineach | Oct 3 2023 20:18 utc | 262

Russia’s fertility rate for 2023 is 1.823 children per woman. That’s one of the, maybe the highest in Europe. 2.1 kids per woman is the magic number (replacement).
I remember quite well that Russia was down to 1.2. But Putin made positive demographic development one of his priorities. Its pretty hard to predict this stuff and the road to a long term sustainable fertility rate is quite tricky but Russia seems to be on track to get there at least for the moment.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 14:14 utc | 7
——————————————————————————————
Post SMO, Russia will focus on building up organizations with the non-west.
The West will be left as a playground for Bill Gates agricultural and medical experiments and Soros’ social experiments.
Posted by: unimperator | Oct 3 2023 16:31 utc | 55
——————————————————————–
Putin stepped up to the plate a long time ago with a strategic vision for Russia and ability execute.
A Swiss former NATO analyst stated some time ago that Putin was not ready to face a NATO/US proxy war Feb 2022, but he also knew his responsibilities and acted upon them. Putin, IMHO, should be given a lot of credit for what at one time might have been called statesmanship. Same for Lavrov. No Nobel recognition forthcoming for either one of them, safe to predict.
Unimperator has to right forecast for what is left after all is said and done.
Anyone looking at the post-WW II German population pyramid will realize that Ukraine is f’ed beyond compare. All hail Blinken et. al.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 3 2023 20:24 utc | 263

Russia’s fertility rate for 2023 is 1.823 children per woman. That’s one of the, maybe the highest in Europe. 2.1 kids per woman is the magic number (replacement).
I remember quite well that Russia was down to 1.2. But Putin made positive demographic development one of his priorities. Its pretty hard to predict this stuff and the road to a long term sustainable fertility rate is quite tricky but Russia seems to be on track to get there at least for the moment.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 14:14 utc | 7
——————————————————————————————
Post SMO, Russia will focus on building up organizations with the non-west.
The West will be left as a playground for Bill Gates agricultural and medical experiments and Soros’ social experiments.
Posted by: unimperator | Oct 3 2023 16:31 utc | 55
——————————————————————–
Putin stepped up to the plate a long time ago with a strategic vision for Russia and ability execute.
A Swiss former NATO analyst stated some time ago that Putin was not ready to face a NATO/US proxy war Feb 2022, but he also knew his responsibilities and acted upon them. Putin, IMHO, should be given a lot of credit for what at one time might have been called statesmanship. Same for Lavrov. No Nobel recognition forthcoming for either one of them, safe to predict.
Unimperator has to right forecast for what is left after all is said and done.
Anyone looking at the post-WW II German population pyramid will realize that Ukraine is f’ed beyond compare. All hail Blinken et. al.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 3 2023 20:24 utc | 264

@bubbles
What makes you think i am arguing against you? All i wanna point out is that “we cant feed the world” is a dumb argument cause we could feed the world 3times over if we wanted to.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 117
Yes ok, but with what and ultimately at what cost to the greater collective long term is my main point. It’s not just a simple equation Orgel, like so very many things, there are levels of complexity and some are imho important. Like the fabric of societies for example. Are we all destined to be ruled and dictated to as is the current trend?
Is that a life worth living? Shall we acquiesce to the latest iteration of a tiny minority’s idea of what society needs to be? Who pray tell, elected them King?
If we in the West were so altruistic we could have brought simple tractors and plows and knowledge to those who needed them, in places they would be of benefit, to help them grow their skills and avert the worst of what nature bestowed upon them. The rest would be best said with what I think is a biblical quote;
Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is His.
We the People are not Gods, nor are those with old and knarled fingers who think of themselves so. Nor some many Profs who lecture based on what they learned mostly from other Profs, but rarely had any skin in the game.
Speaking of Profs, see my earlier post about Micheal Ledeen.

Posted by: bubbles | Oct 3 2023 20:25 utc | 265

@bubbles
What makes you think i am arguing against you? All i wanna point out is that “we cant feed the world” is a dumb argument cause we could feed the world 3times over if we wanted to.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 117
Yes ok, but with what and ultimately at what cost to the greater collective long term is my main point. It’s not just a simple equation Orgel, like so very many things, there are levels of complexity and some are imho important. Like the fabric of societies for example. Are we all destined to be ruled and dictated to as is the current trend?
Is that a life worth living? Shall we acquiesce to the latest iteration of a tiny minority’s idea of what society needs to be? Who pray tell, elected them King?
If we in the West were so altruistic we could have brought simple tractors and plows and knowledge to those who needed them, in places they would be of benefit, to help them grow their skills and avert the worst of what nature bestowed upon them. The rest would be best said with what I think is a biblical quote;
Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is His.
We the People are not Gods, nor are those with old and knarled fingers who think of themselves so. Nor some many Profs who lecture based on what they learned mostly from other Profs, but rarely had any skin in the game.
Speaking of Profs, see my earlier post about Micheal Ledeen.

Posted by: bubbles | Oct 3 2023 20:25 utc | 266

#127:
“Maybe, just maybe, there are some things out there that should not be controlled or managed.”
Hey, we agree!
But realize that “manage” means both ways: population should not be artificially reduced (unless, as you say, there’s some kind of hard limit discovered, which I doubt). But population should also not be artificially managed higher either. And you have to admit that it’s the latter that has happened much more over time, with exhortations to have more children, increase immigration, etc. enacted by rulers to increase their power and ability to make war using the young.
The good thing (from my perspective) is that population does not need to be managed down: every single society on earth that has achieved education and full citizenship for their women has seen immediate reductions in child bearing and consequent population decline unless counteracted through immigration. So all that needs to happen to achieve a more balanced and livable world is what we want anyway, full rights and education for women.

Posted by: Caliman | Oct 3 2023 20:29 utc | 267

#127:
“Maybe, just maybe, there are some things out there that should not be controlled or managed.”
Hey, we agree!
But realize that “manage” means both ways: population should not be artificially reduced (unless, as you say, there’s some kind of hard limit discovered, which I doubt). But population should also not be artificially managed higher either. And you have to admit that it’s the latter that has happened much more over time, with exhortations to have more children, increase immigration, etc. enacted by rulers to increase their power and ability to make war using the young.
The good thing (from my perspective) is that population does not need to be managed down: every single society on earth that has achieved education and full citizenship for their women has seen immediate reductions in child bearing and consequent population decline unless counteracted through immigration. So all that needs to happen to achieve a more balanced and livable world is what we want anyway, full rights and education for women.

Posted by: Caliman | Oct 3 2023 20:29 utc | 268

This is some interesting information on demographics.
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
There is much femninazi propaganda regarding the causes. However; the information is reasonably correct. They remain to PC to acknowledge that population will peak in about 2050. This comes as no surprise to those of us who could understand the concept of an inflection point in a graph. We recognized clear back in the 1970s that the Earth’s population would peak at about double the population back then.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Oct 3 2023 20:41 utc | 269

This is some interesting information on demographics.
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
There is much femninazi propaganda regarding the causes. However; the information is reasonably correct. They remain to PC to acknowledge that population will peak in about 2050. This comes as no surprise to those of us who could understand the concept of an inflection point in a graph. We recognized clear back in the 1970s that the Earth’s population would peak at about double the population back then.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Oct 3 2023 20:41 utc | 270

What always seems to be excluded from any mental calculus is the empirical law:
Infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible.
It remains a paradox of sorts.
If it’s true, then war and the reasons for war must be fabricated in an effort to maintain a balance.

Posted by: AJ | Oct 3 2023 20:42 utc | 271

What always seems to be excluded from any mental calculus is the empirical law:
Infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible.
It remains a paradox of sorts.
If it’s true, then war and the reasons for war must be fabricated in an effort to maintain a balance.

Posted by: AJ | Oct 3 2023 20:42 utc | 272

What we are looking at taking place right now, was known about by us actavistes years ago. We spoke up about it, but no one listened, the CIA even coined a phrase that went virale and still lingers to this day ‘conspracy theory’ so as to discredit people telling the truth.
The truth is ‘agenda 21’
No one has even mentioned it here yet.
Look it up if you can. I expect the search engines have scrubed it.
Just like they’v scrubed ‘antifa’

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 3 2023 20:49 utc | 273

What we are looking at taking place right now, was known about by us actavistes years ago. We spoke up about it, but no one listened, the CIA even coined a phrase that went virale and still lingers to this day ‘conspracy theory’ so as to discredit people telling the truth.
The truth is ‘agenda 21’
No one has even mentioned it here yet.
Look it up if you can. I expect the search engines have scrubed it.
Just like they’v scrubed ‘antifa’

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 3 2023 20:49 utc | 274

Posted by: S | Oct 3 2023 16:56 utc | 66I just wanna give you another perspective. I grew up on a farm in the alps. When i was young it seemed half the village consisted of farmers. All of them were small farms, living of 20 cows or sheep, a little mais or corn and forrest. My family’s farm had 64ha and was one of the biggest around.
Now, 30 years later, there are maybe 20% of these farms left and half of them have just 5 or 7 cows as a hobby. The rest of us gave it up, because the EU didnt want small scale farms but industrial complexes and started to pay better money for NOT cultivating the land. As a result all the land that was producing, meat, milk, corn, mais and other vegetables isn’t used any more.
At the same time you are telling me that we cant feed the planet? Or that the quality of food is bad?
Well, if so, its intentional.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:32 utc | 77
—————————————————–
I was born on a 22 ha dairy farm in the Northern Netherlands during WW II with 40 cows. It lost its dairy quota decades ago, sheep or goats OK, and was sold after my parents died.
The Netherlands were a major dairy exporter post WW II. The current Dutch government, think Rutte et. al. no longer think that farms = food.
You can’t fix stupid.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 3 2023 20:53 utc | 275

Posted by: S | Oct 3 2023 16:56 utc | 66I just wanna give you another perspective. I grew up on a farm in the alps. When i was young it seemed half the village consisted of farmers. All of them were small farms, living of 20 cows or sheep, a little mais or corn and forrest. My family’s farm had 64ha and was one of the biggest around.
Now, 30 years later, there are maybe 20% of these farms left and half of them have just 5 or 7 cows as a hobby. The rest of us gave it up, because the EU didnt want small scale farms but industrial complexes and started to pay better money for NOT cultivating the land. As a result all the land that was producing, meat, milk, corn, mais and other vegetables isn’t used any more.
At the same time you are telling me that we cant feed the planet? Or that the quality of food is bad?
Well, if so, its intentional.
Posted by: Orgel | Oct 3 2023 17:32 utc | 77
—————————————————–
I was born on a 22 ha dairy farm in the Northern Netherlands during WW II with 40 cows. It lost its dairy quota decades ago, sheep or goats OK, and was sold after my parents died.
The Netherlands were a major dairy exporter post WW II. The current Dutch government, think Rutte et. al. no longer think that farms = food.
You can’t fix stupid.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 3 2023 20:53 utc | 276

Jason Hickel, one of the first scientists to promote a degrowth political economy as a solution to the overheating of the planet caused by humans, estimates 80% of all work performed is simply to produce surpluses for the top 1% of income earners. Reducing the travails of the working class 80% would alleviate stress and provide the time for everyone to pursue civic engagement as well as leisure, while reducing the pollution and extraction all this surplus making requires.

Posted by: Wilikins | Oct 3 2023 20:54 utc | 277

Jason Hickel, one of the first scientists to promote a degrowth political economy as a solution to the overheating of the planet caused by humans, estimates 80% of all work performed is simply to produce surpluses for the top 1% of income earners. Reducing the travails of the working class 80% would alleviate stress and provide the time for everyone to pursue civic engagement as well as leisure, while reducing the pollution and extraction all this surplus making requires.

Posted by: Wilikins | Oct 3 2023 20:54 utc | 278

Not this Malthusian nonsense again?
You cannot just “prune away” half the world’s population without severe economic and societal problems. Those who are fantasizing about this “garden” world are the very most expendable, from a purely pragmatic and economic perspective, and thus the first ones that should pruned from the population. You are the superfluous Eloi in a world of productive Morlocks, and on top of that you are not even nutritionally adequate for the Morlocks to eat. From a metaphorical standpoint, snuffing each one of you Eloi (middle class) would actually feed a dozen Morlocks (real working class). That’s from the resources your absence would free up, but it is not necessary.
It is truly bizarre, but you middle class Eloi seem to have no clue about how the artifacts you depend upon for daily survival come into being. You seem to imagine that the “deplorable” working class can be dispensed with and your Walmart shelves will stock themselves with spontaneously appearing products. There are those reading this who, as they sit surrounded by tens of thousands of hours of other humans’ crystallized labor, are musing “What do I need? I don’t need anything! Anything I need I can make myself!” Pure infantile delusion.
There are plenty of more appealing worlds we can imagine if we play loose with the laws of nature and make up our own historical imperatives. I kinda like the one imagined up by James Cameron with the giant flying blue cat people, for instance, but it is important to distinguish between your fantasy world and the real world. This is even more important when the first step towards realizing your fantasy world involves mass genocide on a global scale far beyond all historical precedents combined. Anyone who thinks that is the start of a good and reasonable plan is a psycho monster of the highest order.
Yes, I know you people talking about population reduction are not thinking about mass genocide, but that’s just because you haven’t thought your plan through yet. The truth is that you keep thinking on that idea and you will inevitably get around to the mass genocide part. It’s unavoidable.
Our planet can easily sustain an order of magnitude more people. Of course, that isn’t possible with the economy controlled by wild west capitalism. We will need intelligent economic planning and industrialization that closes various resource cycles, and naturally we will need access to immense increases in energy, but those are just engineering and planning issues now. We don’t need to do genocide.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 3 2023 20:55 utc | 279

Not this Malthusian nonsense again?
You cannot just “prune away” half the world’s population without severe economic and societal problems. Those who are fantasizing about this “garden” world are the very most expendable, from a purely pragmatic and economic perspective, and thus the first ones that should pruned from the population. You are the superfluous Eloi in a world of productive Morlocks, and on top of that you are not even nutritionally adequate for the Morlocks to eat. From a metaphorical standpoint, snuffing each one of you Eloi (middle class) would actually feed a dozen Morlocks (real working class). That’s from the resources your absence would free up, but it is not necessary.
It is truly bizarre, but you middle class Eloi seem to have no clue about how the artifacts you depend upon for daily survival come into being. You seem to imagine that the “deplorable” working class can be dispensed with and your Walmart shelves will stock themselves with spontaneously appearing products. There are those reading this who, as they sit surrounded by tens of thousands of hours of other humans’ crystallized labor, are musing “What do I need? I don’t need anything! Anything I need I can make myself!” Pure infantile delusion.
There are plenty of more appealing worlds we can imagine if we play loose with the laws of nature and make up our own historical imperatives. I kinda like the one imagined up by James Cameron with the giant flying blue cat people, for instance, but it is important to distinguish between your fantasy world and the real world. This is even more important when the first step towards realizing your fantasy world involves mass genocide on a global scale far beyond all historical precedents combined. Anyone who thinks that is the start of a good and reasonable plan is a psycho monster of the highest order.
Yes, I know you people talking about population reduction are not thinking about mass genocide, but that’s just because you haven’t thought your plan through yet. The truth is that you keep thinking on that idea and you will inevitably get around to the mass genocide part. It’s unavoidable.
Our planet can easily sustain an order of magnitude more people. Of course, that isn’t possible with the economy controlled by wild west capitalism. We will need intelligent economic planning and industrialization that closes various resource cycles, and naturally we will need access to immense increases in energy, but those are just engineering and planning issues now. We don’t need to do genocide.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 3 2023 20:55 utc | 280

Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 112
Medvedev noted recently that “all” Russian Territory Sumy Kharkov to Odessa etc. [Lenin’s littlw error] will be reunited with the fatherland. I don’t have the relevant link at hand but this is what he said …. and he states what Putin cannot as President.
I expect this to be the plan … Kharkov is Russian so is Odessa – the latter needed to protect Crimea and the Black Sea fleet as Romania and Bulgaria are in NATO

Posted by: Don Firineach | Oct 3 2023 20:56 utc | 281

Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 3 2023 19:08 utc | 112
Medvedev noted recently that “all” Russian Territory Sumy Kharkov to Odessa etc. [Lenin’s littlw error] will be reunited with the fatherland. I don’t have the relevant link at hand but this is what he said …. and he states what Putin cannot as President.
I expect this to be the plan … Kharkov is Russian so is Odessa – the latter needed to protect Crimea and the Black Sea fleet as Romania and Bulgaria are in NATO

Posted by: Don Firineach | Oct 3 2023 20:56 utc | 282

It’s not about population, global climate, food, oil, or any other resource. It’s the age-old question of power: who controls the resources, and thus the people. That hasn’t changed throughout recorded history, just as the nature of humans hasn’t changed.
The Globalists have the same emotions, motivations, tools, and ethics as did their predecessors. Communism was documented in Proverbs Chapter 1. It was used at times throughout the world. Some more free ancient Greek City-States were toppled by Aristocrats using socialism to take totalitarian control. Julius Caesar converted the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire using socialism.
“Modern” communism was set in place by the Roman Catholic Church using the phrase “All things common” from Acts. They used it to run their nunneries and monasteries. It was extended into their Feudal System, which became the basis for “modern” communism. Even the word “communism,” with its current meaning was published in religious writings at least eight years before Marx and Engles published their Manifesto.
Lenin modified Marxism, leaving control of industries in the hands of Czars who were a part of the government, while allowing smaller “businesses” to sell their products that were above quotas. That was part of his New Economic Policy that brought Soviet Union out of the First Great Soviet Famine. Notice that while some free enterprise was allowed, the system was still communist.
A cookbook to implement Lenin’s NEP, along the lines of Marx’ Manifesto was written in the German Language, and titled “Nationalsozialismus,” National Socialism. Mussolini used it successfully, so Hitler adopted it as well. Their National Socialism, Fascism, is what the Globalist are using today. It’s just the age-old communism applied to today’s structures.
The Southern Invasion of the US is to disrupt society to help the Aristocrats, the Globalists, to take control. Most of the actual invaders will end up dead. That isn’t necessarily a goal, but is likely just a side effect. Their goal in Ukraine wasn’t to depopulate Ukraine, but to weaken Russia so that they could gain power there.
The Global Warming hoax is just another tool. If those myths held any truth, the oceans would have boiled off into space long before any land-based life could have developed. Water vapor is the most powerful “greenhouse gas.”

Posted by: barstool | Oct 3 2023 20:56 utc | 283

It’s not about population, global climate, food, oil, or any other resource. It’s the age-old question of power: who controls the resources, and thus the people. That hasn’t changed throughout recorded history, just as the nature of humans hasn’t changed.
The Globalists have the same emotions, motivations, tools, and ethics as did their predecessors. Communism was documented in Proverbs Chapter 1. It was used at times throughout the world. Some more free ancient Greek City-States were toppled by Aristocrats using socialism to take totalitarian control. Julius Caesar converted the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire using socialism.
“Modern” communism was set in place by the Roman Catholic Church using the phrase “All things common” from Acts. They used it to run their nunneries and monasteries. It was extended into their Feudal System, which became the basis for “modern” communism. Even the word “communism,” with its current meaning was published in religious writings at least eight years before Marx and Engles published their Manifesto.
Lenin modified Marxism, leaving control of industries in the hands of Czars who were a part of the government, while allowing smaller “businesses” to sell their products that were above quotas. That was part of his New Economic Policy that brought Soviet Union out of the First Great Soviet Famine. Notice that while some free enterprise was allowed, the system was still communist.
A cookbook to implement Lenin’s NEP, along the lines of Marx’ Manifesto was written in the German Language, and titled “Nationalsozialismus,” National Socialism. Mussolini used it successfully, so Hitler adopted it as well. Their National Socialism, Fascism, is what the Globalist are using today. It’s just the age-old communism applied to today’s structures.
The Southern Invasion of the US is to disrupt society to help the Aristocrats, the Globalists, to take control. Most of the actual invaders will end up dead. That isn’t necessarily a goal, but is likely just a side effect. Their goal in Ukraine wasn’t to depopulate Ukraine, but to weaken Russia so that they could gain power there.
The Global Warming hoax is just another tool. If those myths held any truth, the oceans would have boiled off into space long before any land-based life could have developed. Water vapor is the most powerful “greenhouse gas.”

Posted by: barstool | Oct 3 2023 20:56 utc | 284

So the next two weeks could be hot.
📜 MultiXAM
https://t.me/sitreports/15854
Posted by: Down South | Oct 3 2023 14:15 utc | 8

The moon wiil start in its third quarter and end up in its new moon phase (totally dark) by the end of that period. So troop movements will occur mostly at night, including the crossings of the Dieper with small boats initially. That’s a pretty good challenge. Is it the first real combined arms operation, Ukraine feels confident will break the current Russian lines.

Posted by: Richard L | Oct 3 2023 20:57 utc | 285

So the next two weeks could be hot.
📜 MultiXAM
https://t.me/sitreports/15854
Posted by: Down South | Oct 3 2023 14:15 utc | 8

The moon wiil start in its third quarter and end up in its new moon phase (totally dark) by the end of that period. So troop movements will occur mostly at night, including the crossings of the Dieper with small boats initially. That’s a pretty good challenge. Is it the first real combined arms operation, Ukraine feels confident will break the current Russian lines.

Posted by: Richard L | Oct 3 2023 20:57 utc | 286

@1
It’s not a problem. A law can be passed to draft Ukrainian women into state-run nurseries where they will be forcibly inseminated to produce new Ukrainians for the glory of the Galician master race. I’m sure the Europeans will support it, as nothing can be kept off the table when it comes to defending European values, that is, prohibiting Russian-speaking Ukrainians to speak Russian and prohibiting Ukrainians to celebrate the victory of the Red Army over Nazi Germany.
Posted by: S | Oct 3 2023 16:56 utc | 66
——————————————————
Dr. Strangelove, same solution, but in underground bunkers to avoid the nuclear fallout.
Sarcasm, cynicism, some of the services we offer.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 3 2023 20:58 utc | 287

@1
It’s not a problem. A law can be passed to draft Ukrainian women into state-run nurseries where they will be forcibly inseminated to produce new Ukrainians for the glory of the Galician master race. I’m sure the Europeans will support it, as nothing can be kept off the table when it comes to defending European values, that is, prohibiting Russian-speaking Ukrainians to speak Russian and prohibiting Ukrainians to celebrate the victory of the Red Army over Nazi Germany.
Posted by: S | Oct 3 2023 16:56 utc | 66
——————————————————
Dr. Strangelove, same solution, but in underground bunkers to avoid the nuclear fallout.
Sarcasm, cynicism, some of the services we offer.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 3 2023 20:58 utc | 288

@125 Cont’d–
Larry Johnson posted this remark he made to Judge Napolitano:
The West was put on notice over the past week by Russian leaders. Foreign Minister Lavrov, Defense Chief Shoigu, former President Medvedev and Speaker of the Duma Volodin all communicated a simple message — Ukraine must capitulate or it will cease to exist as a nation.
I posted the link but Typepad didn’t allow my comment to post, so I removed the link to Larry Johnson’s website, which most barflies ought to be able to find. It’s in his “Hope Ain’t a Plan.”

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 21:01 utc | 289

@125 Cont’d–
Larry Johnson posted this remark he made to Judge Napolitano:
The West was put on notice over the past week by Russian leaders. Foreign Minister Lavrov, Defense Chief Shoigu, former President Medvedev and Speaker of the Duma Volodin all communicated a simple message — Ukraine must capitulate or it will cease to exist as a nation.
I posted the link but Typepad didn’t allow my comment to post, so I removed the link to Larry Johnson’s website, which most barflies ought to be able to find. It’s in his “Hope Ain’t a Plan.”

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 3 2023 21:01 utc | 290

In case you’re interested in what Ritter has to say…
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/10/02/scott-ritter-no-end-of-history-in-ukraine/

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Oct 3 2023 21:08 utc | 291

In case you’re interested in what Ritter has to say…
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/10/02/scott-ritter-no-end-of-history-in-ukraine/

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Oct 3 2023 21:08 utc | 292

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Oct 3 2023 20:41 utc | 134
We recognized clear back in the 1970s that the Earth’s population would peak at about double the population back then.
1976-around 3 billion population
2023-8 billion
Almost 3x. It will be close to quadruple by the time it hits the peak, that is unless, humanity goes into the dumper first.

Posted by: Milton | Oct 3 2023 21:09 utc | 293

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Oct 3 2023 20:41 utc | 134
We recognized clear back in the 1970s that the Earth’s population would peak at about double the population back then.
1976-around 3 billion population
2023-8 billion
Almost 3x. It will be close to quadruple by the time it hits the peak, that is unless, humanity goes into the dumper first.

Posted by: Milton | Oct 3 2023 21:09 utc | 294

@Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 117
You don’t get the underlying physics right. There may be a slight gas flow impedance by the mask, but never a selective change in concentration. The impedance is compensated for by heavier breathing, as during physical activitiy. I never felt any difficulties of this type, so the impedance seems neglectible. MDs can perform surgery for many hours without dizziness. And people with relevant respiratory disabilities are exempt from wearing a mask.

Posted by: OttoE | Oct 3 2023 21:13 utc | 295

@Orgel | Oct 3 2023 19:13 utc | 117
You don’t get the underlying physics right. There may be a slight gas flow impedance by the mask, but never a selective change in concentration. The impedance is compensated for by heavier breathing, as during physical activitiy. I never felt any difficulties of this type, so the impedance seems neglectible. MDs can perform surgery for many hours without dizziness. And people with relevant respiratory disabilities are exempt from wearing a mask.

Posted by: OttoE | Oct 3 2023 21:13 utc | 296

Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy has been ousted. What will happen to Biden’s funding for his war?

Posted by: Ed | Oct 3 2023 21:17 utc | 297

Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy has been ousted. What will happen to Biden’s funding for his war?

Posted by: Ed | Oct 3 2023 21:17 utc | 298

This is about Canada, but could be about any Western country:

In large part thanks to immigration, Canada has matched the United States with an average GDP growth of just over 2% over the past decade, well above the 1.4% G7 average” Reuters

I interpret this as: our politicians do not care about demographics. Our politicians do care about GDP, an abstract economic indicator, as this gives
bragging rights.
As this article indicates, immigration is merely seen as a way to keep the GDP growing.
Personally I feel that if GDP were to halve, and population also were to halve, we would continue to live equally well.

Posted by: Passerby | Oct 3 2023 21:18 utc | 299

This is about Canada, but could be about any Western country:

In large part thanks to immigration, Canada has matched the United States with an average GDP growth of just over 2% over the past decade, well above the 1.4% G7 average” Reuters

I interpret this as: our politicians do not care about demographics. Our politicians do care about GDP, an abstract economic indicator, as this gives
bragging rights.
As this article indicates, immigration is merely seen as a way to keep the GDP growing.
Personally I feel that if GDP were to halve, and population also were to halve, we would continue to live equally well.

Posted by: Passerby | Oct 3 2023 21:18 utc | 300