Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 27, 2023
Two Middle East Outlooks

Jake Sullivan, National Security Advisor and dimwit, had written a laudation of his own and his bosses foreign policy for the November print edition of Foreign Affairs. The piece was finalized before the war in Palestine had begun.

The Sources of American Power
A Foreign Policy for a Changed World

Excerpts:

Indeed, although the Middle East remains beset with perennial challenges, the region is quieter than it has been for decades.

The progress is fragile, to be sure. But it is also not an accident.

[The president's] approach returns discipline to U.S. policy. It emphasizes deterring aggression, de-escalating conflicts, and integrating the region through joint infrastructure projects and new partnerships, including between Israel and its Arab neighbors. And it is bearing fruit.

This disciplined approach frees up resources for other global priorities, reduces the risk of new Middle Eastern conflicts, and ensures that U.S. interests are protected on a far more sustainable basis. Challenges remain. The Israeli-Palestinian situation is tense, particularly in the West Bank, but in the face of serious frictions, we have de-escalated crises in Gaza and restored direct diplomacy between the parties after years of its absence.

Alastair Crooke, who has personally negotiated prisoner exchanges between Hamas and Israel, has published a rather bleak outlook.

Escalations Cannot Be Stopped – The White House Is Rattled; Escalations Might All Fuse Into ‘One’
The reality of the necessity of war is permeating widely the consciousness of the Arabic and Islamic world.


It is no coincidence that Netanyahu flourished a map of Israel during his General Assembly address last month in which Israel dominated from the River to the Sea – and Palestine (indeed any Palestinian territory) was non-existent.

Tom Friedman in his NYT reflections may fear that just as NATO’s impaired performance in Ukraine has ruptured ‘the NATO myth’, so too the 7 October Israeli military and intelligence collapse and what happens in its wake in Gaza ‘might explode the entire pro-American alliance structure’ in the Middle East.

The confluence of two such humiliations might break the spine of western primacy. This seems to be the gist to Friedman’s analysis. (He likely is correct).

Hamas has succeeded in smashing the Israel deterrence paradigm: They were not afraid, the IDF proved far from invincible, and the Arab street mobilised as never before (confounding western cynics who laugh at the very notion of there being an ‘Arab Street’).

Well, that is where we are – and the White House is rattled.

This is what worries the White House Team. They are deeply unconfident that an Israeli invasion of Gaza will put ‘Humpty’ together again. Rather, they fear that events may go badly for the IDF, and further, that the images relayed across the Middle East of Israel using overwhelming force in a civilian urban setting will revolt the Islamic sphere.

In spite of western scepticism, there are signs that this insurrection in the Arab sphere is different, and resembles more the 1916 Arab Revolt that overthrew the Ottoman Empire. It is taking on a distinct ‘edge’ as both Shi’a and Sunni religious authorities state the duty of Muslims to stand with Palestinians. In other words, as the Israeli polity becomes plainly ‘Prophetical’, so the Islamic mood is turning eschatological, in its turn.

That the White House should be floating kites about ‘moderate’ Arab leaders pressing ‘moderate’ Palestinians to form an Israeli-friendly government in Gaza that would displace Hamas and impose security and order shows just how severed is the West from reality. Recall that Mahmoud Abbas, General Sisi and the King of Jordan (some of the region’s most pliable leaders) pointedly refused even to meet with Biden after the latter’s Israel trip.

The anger across the region is real and threatens ‘moderate’ Arab leaders, whose room for manoeuvre is now circumscribed.

So hotspots are proliferating, as are attacks on U.S. deployments around the region. Some in Washington claim to perceive an Iranian hand, and are hoping to expand a window for war with Iran.

Should Israel enter Gaza (and Israel may decide it has no choice but to launch a ground operation, given the domestic political dynamics and public sentiment), it is likely that Hizbullah will incrementally be drawn further in, leaving the U.S. with the binary option of seeing Israel defeated, or launching a major war in which all the hotspots become fused ‘as one’.

In a sense, the Israeli-Islamic conflict now may only be resolved in this kinetic way. All efforts since 1947 have seen the divide only deepen. The reality of the necessity of war is permeating widely the consciousness of the Arabic and Islamic world.

Comments

Still waiting for any Arab or EU reactions. Egypt has already dropped the mask by announcing they want to play a positive role. I wonder how many ppl were arrested during the demos.
The Qatari UK joined statement is another admission of whose side Qatar is actually on.

Posted by: Minaa | Oct 28 2023 10:32 utc | 801

Still waiting for any Arab or EU reactions. Egypt has already dropped the mask by announcing they want to play a positive role. I wonder how many ppl were arrested during the demos.
The Qatari UK joined statement is another admission of whose side Qatar is actually on.

Posted by: Minaa | Oct 28 2023 10:32 utc | 802

So I checked in on the X/Twitter account of former Canadian Armed Forces member, Mike Mihajlovic. He is talking about Eriat. An excerpt:
“Before even getting into the Gulf, the Red Sea, and the US Arleigh Burke class destroyers with their Aegis combat systems stand in the way of any Houthis attack. For them, to launch anything against Israel and hope for a hit, it must go over Saudi Arabia”
https://x.com/MihajlovicMike/status/1718022514251558965
I don’t get it. Why would the Houthis target Israel, I thought they fired at some naval targets. Why are we talking about the Houthis, anyway??
Oh, wait, maybe this other piece of news has something to do with it: “Saudi Arabia warns US of ‘catastrophic’ consequences — NYT”
https://www.rt.com/news/586026-saudi-gaza-catastrophic-consequences/
Interesting video of Orban, ends with, what looked to me like, a Godfather-type image, following his one-on-one (tête-à-tête) with Macron.
https://x.com/PM_ViktorOrban/status/1718162075787178188

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Oct 28 2023 10:39 utc | 803

So I checked in on the X/Twitter account of former Canadian Armed Forces member, Mike Mihajlovic. He is talking about Eriat. An excerpt:
“Before even getting into the Gulf, the Red Sea, and the US Arleigh Burke class destroyers with their Aegis combat systems stand in the way of any Houthis attack. For them, to launch anything against Israel and hope for a hit, it must go over Saudi Arabia”
https://x.com/MihajlovicMike/status/1718022514251558965
I don’t get it. Why would the Houthis target Israel, I thought they fired at some naval targets. Why are we talking about the Houthis, anyway??
Oh, wait, maybe this other piece of news has something to do with it: “Saudi Arabia warns US of ‘catastrophic’ consequences — NYT”
https://www.rt.com/news/586026-saudi-gaza-catastrophic-consequences/
Interesting video of Orban, ends with, what looked to me like, a Godfather-type image, following his one-on-one (tête-à-tête) with Macron.
https://x.com/PM_ViktorOrban/status/1718162075787178188

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Oct 28 2023 10:39 utc | 804

Russia: has to juggle security demands but will be happy to arm anyone willing to fight US led powers and trade resources with Iran. A little too busy to open another front but surely watching Syria and Tartus base.
Posted by: SOS | Oct 28 2023 9:25 utc | 388
If you are waiting for Russia to sell or give weapons to be used against Israel you are waiting for big disappointment. You have a country where cluster ammo falls in the middle of the city and chemical weapons on their soldiers and they close eyes, pretend it never happened. There’s no war in Ukr either, they’re not allowed to hit anything or anyone, the abramoviches said no. The little Syria base will eventually be closed at the request of Syria, no US bullets needed though it’s possible for Vicky’s entertainment, in the same way Russians were killed for fun in former Armenia, on their way out. Remember when Turkey shot down a plane just for fun but only after they received s400 from the losers? Or how about those Indians? Have s400, will receive more s400s next year even though they’ve opened 3 US naval bases and turned into eu/nato’s proxy for ultra cheap Russian energy. In 5-10 years who will cry that their new “partners” are bad and using their own weapons against them?

Posted by: rk | Oct 28 2023 10:45 utc | 805

Russia: has to juggle security demands but will be happy to arm anyone willing to fight US led powers and trade resources with Iran. A little too busy to open another front but surely watching Syria and Tartus base.
Posted by: SOS | Oct 28 2023 9:25 utc | 388
If you are waiting for Russia to sell or give weapons to be used against Israel you are waiting for big disappointment. You have a country where cluster ammo falls in the middle of the city and chemical weapons on their soldiers and they close eyes, pretend it never happened. There’s no war in Ukr either, they’re not allowed to hit anything or anyone, the abramoviches said no. The little Syria base will eventually be closed at the request of Syria, no US bullets needed though it’s possible for Vicky’s entertainment, in the same way Russians were killed for fun in former Armenia, on their way out. Remember when Turkey shot down a plane just for fun but only after they received s400 from the losers? Or how about those Indians? Have s400, will receive more s400s next year even though they’ve opened 3 US naval bases and turned into eu/nato’s proxy for ultra cheap Russian energy. In 5-10 years who will cry that their new “partners” are bad and using their own weapons against them?

Posted by: rk | Oct 28 2023 10:45 utc | 806

Organic @ 401: do a google search on viewzone: Abraham who was he?

Posted by: Hutch | Oct 28 2023 10:52 utc | 807

Organic @ 401: do a google search on viewzone: Abraham who was he?

Posted by: Hutch | Oct 28 2023 10:52 utc | 808

Posted by: No More BS | Oct 28 2023 10:28 utc | 402
Flotillas have been stopped before. The Mavi Maramara was even stopped by force.
During the first few days after Oct 7, Russia and Turkey were talking about a flotilla taking humanitarian aid to Gaza, but I have not heard anything of it. I was hoping that this might give ısrael pause as the flotilla, accompanied by warships, that would be going through intenational and Gazan waters, not Israeli, would be difficult to stop.
Would Israel attack the flotilla? This would have created a dilemma for them and the US. The US and Israel want to provoke a war with Iran, without seeming to be the aggressors. Attacking a Russian, Turkish protected flotilla would have made either the US or Israel or both the aggressors.
Now, it seems, the “aggression” must come from the “multipolar world”. If it does not, at least half of Gaza, and the whole of the West Bank are likely to be “ethnically cleansed” unless Hamas really has something clever up its sleeve.
Verbal condemnation and UN resolutions will not be enough. Yet, the US veto makes anything significant moot. Hezbollah attacking will open the road for the neocons and the zionists to play the “victim” and attack its “sponsors”, Syria and Iran, possibly leading to a world war.
Perhaps, unilateral sanctions on Israel, ignoring the UN, therefore the US veto can be tried, or will that not work. Otherwise, war or a Greater Israel by default, sacrificing the Palestinians, and a failure for the multipolar world.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Oct 28 2023 11:11 utc | 809

Posted by: No More BS | Oct 28 2023 10:28 utc | 402
Flotillas have been stopped before. The Mavi Maramara was even stopped by force.
During the first few days after Oct 7, Russia and Turkey were talking about a flotilla taking humanitarian aid to Gaza, but I have not heard anything of it. I was hoping that this might give ısrael pause as the flotilla, accompanied by warships, that would be going through intenational and Gazan waters, not Israeli, would be difficult to stop.
Would Israel attack the flotilla? This would have created a dilemma for them and the US. The US and Israel want to provoke a war with Iran, without seeming to be the aggressors. Attacking a Russian, Turkish protected flotilla would have made either the US or Israel or both the aggressors.
Now, it seems, the “aggression” must come from the “multipolar world”. If it does not, at least half of Gaza, and the whole of the West Bank are likely to be “ethnically cleansed” unless Hamas really has something clever up its sleeve.
Verbal condemnation and UN resolutions will not be enough. Yet, the US veto makes anything significant moot. Hezbollah attacking will open the road for the neocons and the zionists to play the “victim” and attack its “sponsors”, Syria and Iran, possibly leading to a world war.
Perhaps, unilateral sanctions on Israel, ignoring the UN, therefore the US veto can be tried, or will that not work. Otherwise, war or a Greater Israel by default, sacrificing the Palestinians, and a failure for the multipolar world.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Oct 28 2023 11:11 utc | 810

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Oct 28 2023 11:11 utc | 407
The geopolitical situation and balance of forces was very different years ago when the Marimara was stopped.
Tmiing is of the essence. The idea of a flotilla around October 7 was way too early- the world was reeling from the Hamas savage attack. The timing is now getting to be ripe. My impression is that the Alliance has gamed it together with the possibility of new opportunities – war is dynamic, as Martynov incessantly reminds.

Posted by: No More BS | Oct 28 2023 11:26 utc | 811

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Oct 28 2023 11:11 utc | 407
The geopolitical situation and balance of forces was very different years ago when the Marimara was stopped.
Tmiing is of the essence. The idea of a flotilla around October 7 was way too early- the world was reeling from the Hamas savage attack. The timing is now getting to be ripe. My impression is that the Alliance has gamed it together with the possibility of new opportunities – war is dynamic, as Martynov incessantly reminds.

Posted by: No More BS | Oct 28 2023 11:26 utc | 812

Russia should use Iran the way USA uses Ukraine.
Transferring biological agents to Iran will ensure Iran’s security. USA can’t retaliate in kind for the fear of Israel’s predicament. It will immediately put pressure off Iran.

Posted by: Jason | Oct 28 2023 11:31 utc | 813

Russia should use Iran the way USA uses Ukraine.
Transferring biological agents to Iran will ensure Iran’s security. USA can’t retaliate in kind for the fear of Israel’s predicament. It will immediately put pressure off Iran.

Posted by: Jason | Oct 28 2023 11:31 utc | 814

Posted by: No More BS | Oct 28 2023 11:26 utc | 408
I hope you are right. I really think the key is the warship escort. Without one, they won’t get through.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Oct 28 2023 11:44 utc | 815

Posted by: No More BS | Oct 28 2023 11:26 utc | 408
I hope you are right. I really think the key is the warship escort. Without one, they won’t get through.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Oct 28 2023 11:44 utc | 816

Posted by: Organic | Oct 28 2023 10:27 utc | 401
False beliefs system is the worst thing you can go after.
Atheism and agnosticism do indeed have a beliefs system.

Posted by: Mario | Oct 28 2023 11:50 utc | 817

Posted by: Organic | Oct 28 2023 10:27 utc | 401
False beliefs system is the worst thing you can go after.
Atheism and agnosticism do indeed have a beliefs system.

Posted by: Mario | Oct 28 2023 11:50 utc | 818

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 27 2023 21:02 utc | 205
If I wasn’t for cooperation, then I wouldn’t be for Normalization. And I am for Normalization.

Normalisation of sociopathy is not cooperation.
Perhaps it is time to slow down on judging comments you clearly don’t understand.
Strawman fallacy.

Posted by: Naive | Oct 28 2023 11:59 utc | 819

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 27 2023 21:02 utc | 205
If I wasn’t for cooperation, then I wouldn’t be for Normalization. And I am for Normalization.

Normalisation of sociopathy is not cooperation.
Perhaps it is time to slow down on judging comments you clearly don’t understand.
Strawman fallacy.

Posted by: Naive | Oct 28 2023 11:59 utc | 820

“With each passing hour it becomes more apparent that Hezbollah hates the Sunnis of Gaza more than it hates Israel.”
Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 1:01 utc | 290
Why on earth are you parotting this secterian nonsense?
Hezbolla is in the crosshair of two aircraft carrier strike croups.
They have to deal with a very very fragile political situation in Lebanon which could flare up into a two front war for them self. Each of theire recent actions would have been a reason for full blown bombing campaigne by IDF, only a few weeks ago. Hezbolla simply has a lot to loose if they act irresponsible.
This is not Sunni vs. Shia. As powerfull as they might be, taking the wrong step at wrong time might destroy Lebanon and expell them from their powerbase. That they are coordinating with Hamas at all (meeting in Moscow for example) is a big thing after Hamas was beeing “moderate rebels” in Syria. This dynamics are a very interesting subject btw.

Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:01 utc | 821

“With each passing hour it becomes more apparent that Hezbollah hates the Sunnis of Gaza more than it hates Israel.”
Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 1:01 utc | 290
Why on earth are you parotting this secterian nonsense?
Hezbolla is in the crosshair of two aircraft carrier strike croups.
They have to deal with a very very fragile political situation in Lebanon which could flare up into a two front war for them self. Each of theire recent actions would have been a reason for full blown bombing campaigne by IDF, only a few weeks ago. Hezbolla simply has a lot to loose if they act irresponsible.
This is not Sunni vs. Shia. As powerfull as they might be, taking the wrong step at wrong time might destroy Lebanon and expell them from their powerbase. That they are coordinating with Hamas at all (meeting in Moscow for example) is a big thing after Hamas was beeing “moderate rebels” in Syria. This dynamics are a very interesting subject btw.

Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:01 utc | 822

@ SOS | Oct 28 2023 9:25 utc | 387
Your analysis is mostly good and your conclusions (unfortunately) plausible, but I think you err by categorizing Jordan as an Iranian client state. Rather the opposite, actually.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:02 utc | 823

@ SOS | Oct 28 2023 9:25 utc | 387
Your analysis is mostly good and your conclusions (unfortunately) plausible, but I think you err by categorizing Jordan as an Iranian client state. Rather the opposite, actually.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:02 utc | 824

“It seems impossible that Netanyahu’s Corridor can defeat China’s Belt & Road initiative, but Israel and the US have succeeded in conquering the European gas market”. That is the synopsis of my article “The geopolitical motives of the war against Palestine”
https://geopolitiekincontext.wordpress.com/2023/10/28/de-geopolitieke-motieven-van-de-oorlog-tegen-palestina/
published as a follow-up of my op-ed “Netanyahu’s dilemma: resign or continue for Nakba 2.0”, see
https://geopolitiekincontext.wordpress.com/2023/10/25/netanyahus-dilemma-aftreden-of-doorgaan-voor-nakbah-2-0/

Posted by: Paul-Robert | Oct 28 2023 12:04 utc | 825

“It seems impossible that Netanyahu’s Corridor can defeat China’s Belt & Road initiative, but Israel and the US have succeeded in conquering the European gas market”. That is the synopsis of my article “The geopolitical motives of the war against Palestine”
https://geopolitiekincontext.wordpress.com/2023/10/28/de-geopolitieke-motieven-van-de-oorlog-tegen-palestina/
published as a follow-up of my op-ed “Netanyahu’s dilemma: resign or continue for Nakba 2.0”, see
https://geopolitiekincontext.wordpress.com/2023/10/25/netanyahus-dilemma-aftreden-of-doorgaan-voor-nakbah-2-0/

Posted by: Paul-Robert | Oct 28 2023 12:04 utc | 826

@ El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:01 utc | 414
There were no carrier groups in place on October 7 or the following several days. It would seem therefore that all talk of coordination between Hamas and Hezbollah was, well, just talk.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:05 utc | 827

@ El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:01 utc | 414
There were no carrier groups in place on October 7 or the following several days. It would seem therefore that all talk of coordination between Hamas and Hezbollah was, well, just talk.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:05 utc | 828

As for conflict, it is the engine of progress and development. Without the class conflict of capitalism there would be no impulse or agent of movement to a higher socioeconomic system.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 27 2023 20:57 utc | 203

Conflicts arise when scarcity is present and when some people don’t want to share this scarcity. Typically the 9/11 false flag came when it was known for sure that the peak for conventional oil will be reach in the coming years. Another way to suppress the scarcity is to get rid of the parts of people. Like currently in Gaza where there is a scarcity of the land.
English is a poor language for poor people. In French there are too different words: “compétition” and “concurrence”. And also “émulation”, “rivalité”.
Check the Latin: “petitio”. Assault, attack, blow.

Posted by: Naive | Oct 28 2023 12:18 utc | 829

As for conflict, it is the engine of progress and development. Without the class conflict of capitalism there would be no impulse or agent of movement to a higher socioeconomic system.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 27 2023 20:57 utc | 203

Conflicts arise when scarcity is present and when some people don’t want to share this scarcity. Typically the 9/11 false flag came when it was known for sure that the peak for conventional oil will be reach in the coming years. Another way to suppress the scarcity is to get rid of the parts of people. Like currently in Gaza where there is a scarcity of the land.
English is a poor language for poor people. In French there are too different words: “compétition” and “concurrence”. And also “émulation”, “rivalité”.
Check the Latin: “petitio”. Assault, attack, blow.

Posted by: Naive | Oct 28 2023 12:18 utc | 830

The US is certainly seen as the same sort of illegal rogue state as Israel this time around. It sits in illegal occupation of Arab states in Syria and Iraq and dimwits like Lindsay Graham advocate war against Iran. Why would anyone be surprised when Biden and the US are seen as enemies and allies of Israel? They are after all perpetrating the same criminal activities.

Posted by: Larry P. Johnson | Oct 28 2023 12:18 utc | 831

The US is certainly seen as the same sort of illegal rogue state as Israel this time around. It sits in illegal occupation of Arab states in Syria and Iraq and dimwits like Lindsay Graham advocate war against Iran. Why would anyone be surprised when Biden and the US are seen as enemies and allies of Israel? They are after all perpetrating the same criminal activities.

Posted by: Larry P. Johnson | Oct 28 2023 12:18 utc | 832

@malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:05 utc | 417
If we are talking pre 7th September, i even hope there was no coordination (personal opinion). But claiming Hezbolla hates the Sunnis in Gaza is parroting the secterian bulls&?!@ that the empire loves to sow and exploit.

Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:20 utc | 833

@malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:05 utc | 417
If we are talking pre 7th September, i even hope there was no coordination (personal opinion). But claiming Hezbolla hates the Sunnis in Gaza is parroting the secterian bulls&?!@ that the empire loves to sow and exploit.

Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:20 utc | 834

@Newbie
“I’m 99% sure Orban just voted against for the lulz”
No, Orban is a servant of the Zionists.

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 28 2023 12:29 utc | 835

@Newbie
“I’m 99% sure Orban just voted against for the lulz”
No, Orban is a servant of the Zionists.

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 28 2023 12:29 utc | 836

“With each passing hour it becomes more apparent that Hezbollah hates the Sunnis of Gaza more than it hates Israel.”
Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 1:01 utc | 290
You’re out of date. It was true a year or two back, but it isn’t now. Both the Chinese-influenced reconciliation between Saudi and Iran, and the current Islam-wide revulsion at events in Gaza have abolished the shi’a-sunni conflicts, at least for the moment.
If Hizbullah has not thrown its hat in the ring majorly, it’s because it is in a delicate situation. In the past a Hizbullah missile launch would be a once only throw of the dice; it could not be repeated in a long war. Whether that is still the case is not certain, but it is not far off that. There’s also Hizbullah’s relationship with other Lebanese parties, who because of the disastrous state of the Lebanese economy, wrecked partly by the selfish greed of the wealthy classes, and partly by sanctions targetting Hizbullah by outside powers like the French, are opposed to war.
Personally I don’t think it matters that Hizbullah didn’t launch straight off. Israeli attempts to exterminate Hamas are going to go on for some time, so there’s time for the political situation to ferment and build up a good pressure.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 28 2023 12:32 utc | 837

“With each passing hour it becomes more apparent that Hezbollah hates the Sunnis of Gaza more than it hates Israel.”
Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 1:01 utc | 290
You’re out of date. It was true a year or two back, but it isn’t now. Both the Chinese-influenced reconciliation between Saudi and Iran, and the current Islam-wide revulsion at events in Gaza have abolished the shi’a-sunni conflicts, at least for the moment.
If Hizbullah has not thrown its hat in the ring majorly, it’s because it is in a delicate situation. In the past a Hizbullah missile launch would be a once only throw of the dice; it could not be repeated in a long war. Whether that is still the case is not certain, but it is not far off that. There’s also Hizbullah’s relationship with other Lebanese parties, who because of the disastrous state of the Lebanese economy, wrecked partly by the selfish greed of the wealthy classes, and partly by sanctions targetting Hizbullah by outside powers like the French, are opposed to war.
Personally I don’t think it matters that Hizbullah didn’t launch straight off. Israeli attempts to exterminate Hamas are going to go on for some time, so there’s time for the political situation to ferment and build up a good pressure.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 28 2023 12:32 utc | 838

But claiming Hezbolla hates the Sunnis in Gaza is parroting the secterian bulls&?!@ that the empire loves to sow and exploit.
Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:20 utc | 420
____
If there were no sectarianism — that is, if it were bullshit — then the empire would have no luck sowing it, let alone exploiting it.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:34 utc | 839

But claiming Hezbolla hates the Sunnis in Gaza is parroting the secterian bulls&?!@ that the empire loves to sow and exploit.
Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 12:20 utc | 420
____
If there were no sectarianism — that is, if it were bullshit — then the empire would have no luck sowing it, let alone exploiting it.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:34 utc | 840

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 28 2023 12:29 utc | 421
Orbán was called a strongman and compared to Netanyahu a few years ago, perhaps rightly so. It is also possible the representative “pressed the wrong button”. We have heard that before. Anyway, if there is a “plan” and someone has it, it is fair to say it is spiralling out of control.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 12:38 utc | 841

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 28 2023 12:29 utc | 421
Orbán was called a strongman and compared to Netanyahu a few years ago, perhaps rightly so. It is also possible the representative “pressed the wrong button”. We have heard that before. Anyway, if there is a “plan” and someone has it, it is fair to say it is spiralling out of control.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 12:38 utc | 842

Musk gives star link to Gaza’s humanitarian organizations:
https://t.me/myLordBebo/11305

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 28 2023 12:40 utc | 843

Musk gives star link to Gaza’s humanitarian organizations:
https://t.me/myLordBebo/11305

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 28 2023 12:40 utc | 844

Telaev should be demolised tonight. From all sides, by all partys.
Maybe give them 2 hours to evacuate.
You cant mess about with mass murders.
Lest we forget.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 28 2023 12:44 utc | 845

Telaev should be demolised tonight. From all sides, by all partys.
Maybe give them 2 hours to evacuate.
You cant mess about with mass murders.
Lest we forget.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 28 2023 12:44 utc | 846

So the breaking news of 5000 US troops in Gaza https://t.me/ZandVchannel/85447 follows nicely Australian ABC “just in” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-28/iranian-teen-armita-geravand-dies/103035630 and so it begins again. I sense a barrage of anti Iranian sentiment in the West… More than it has been, if that’s possible. On a side, I feel it just incredulous that a single image of a young girl, terrified and naked, running down the road from a US attack in Vietnam can polarise public opinion yet in today’s news a steady flow of children being mutilated elicits… what? Sweet F A. This pathetic West. “’Cry ‘Havoc,’ and let slip the dogs of war…”

Posted by: Trinculo | Oct 28 2023 12:46 utc | 847

So the breaking news of 5000 US troops in Gaza https://t.me/ZandVchannel/85447 follows nicely Australian ABC “just in” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-28/iranian-teen-armita-geravand-dies/103035630 and so it begins again. I sense a barrage of anti Iranian sentiment in the West… More than it has been, if that’s possible. On a side, I feel it just incredulous that a single image of a young girl, terrified and naked, running down the road from a US attack in Vietnam can polarise public opinion yet in today’s news a steady flow of children being mutilated elicits… what? Sweet F A. This pathetic West. “’Cry ‘Havoc,’ and let slip the dogs of war…”

Posted by: Trinculo | Oct 28 2023 12:46 utc | 848

I just hope Hisbullahs lack of respone so far is nothing more than a few hours to cordernate a combined attack Hezbullah on the ground plus full force missile and drone attack directly from Iran, with a reminder from China and Russia not to attack Iran.
be proactive now not reactive.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 28 2023 12:56 utc | 849

I just hope Hisbullahs lack of respone so far is nothing more than a few hours to cordernate a combined attack Hezbullah on the ground plus full force missile and drone attack directly from Iran, with a reminder from China and Russia not to attack Iran.
be proactive now not reactive.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 28 2023 12:56 utc | 850

@malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:34 utc | 423
No reason to participate in it! Especially claiming things as an outsider.

Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 13:10 utc | 851

@malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:34 utc | 423
No reason to participate in it! Especially claiming things as an outsider.

Posted by: El.Lissitzky | Oct 28 2023 13:10 utc | 852

malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:05 utc | 417
*** There were no carrier groups in place on October 7 or the following several days.***
Their subsequent presence was pretty much guaranteed.

Posted by: Cynic | Oct 28 2023 13:13 utc | 853

malenkov | Oct 28 2023 12:05 utc | 417
*** There were no carrier groups in place on October 7 or the following several days.***
Their subsequent presence was pretty much guaranteed.

Posted by: Cynic | Oct 28 2023 13:13 utc | 854

@ Cynic | Oct 28 2023 13:13 utc | 430
Which is why they should have struck before the carrier groups were in place.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 13:19 utc | 855

@ Cynic | Oct 28 2023 13:13 utc | 430
Which is why they should have struck before the carrier groups were in place.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 13:19 utc | 856

My personal take is also that the Abrahamic religions are inaccurate
Posted by: Organic | Oct 28 2023 10:27 utc | 402
Before I reply, I would ask all of you to see an important reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6ErE7kl_Bk&t=173s
It is ten years old, much changed since then, regrettably, not for the batter.
Now my answer: “Abrahamic religions are INACCURATE…”. Can ANYONE believe it? Is it written in an alternate universe where [initial part of the video explains what I mean]
More seriously, religions are social phenomena with paraphernalia like latest editions of sacred texts, commentaries, current interpretations, and, most importantly, current practices. So we have practices and recommendations of Senator Nikki Haley and of Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, but also many others which are very different. They have SOME relationship to SOME editions of sacred text, but it is like opening a historical novel on a random page and seeing words “Kill them all! The Lord will find His own.” If you are so inclined, you can do just that, but if you are not you may start to investigate: what character of the novel shouted that, was he a good character, was there a good analogy to the situation today. But you may as well rejected based on your feelings and moral sense that reflects realities of 21 century. Who cares about the novel. The writer cited a monk who wrote the chronicle of a war against heretics, but (a) the monk could invent those words to reflect his belief that the character was resolute, valiant and pius (b) we need not share the standards of being resolute, valiant and pius with monks and feudal lords of XIII century.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 28 2023 13:29 utc | 857

My personal take is also that the Abrahamic religions are inaccurate
Posted by: Organic | Oct 28 2023 10:27 utc | 402
Before I reply, I would ask all of you to see an important reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6ErE7kl_Bk&t=173s
It is ten years old, much changed since then, regrettably, not for the batter.
Now my answer: “Abrahamic religions are INACCURATE…”. Can ANYONE believe it? Is it written in an alternate universe where [initial part of the video explains what I mean]
More seriously, religions are social phenomena with paraphernalia like latest editions of sacred texts, commentaries, current interpretations, and, most importantly, current practices. So we have practices and recommendations of Senator Nikki Haley and of Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, but also many others which are very different. They have SOME relationship to SOME editions of sacred text, but it is like opening a historical novel on a random page and seeing words “Kill them all! The Lord will find His own.” If you are so inclined, you can do just that, but if you are not you may start to investigate: what character of the novel shouted that, was he a good character, was there a good analogy to the situation today. But you may as well rejected based on your feelings and moral sense that reflects realities of 21 century. Who cares about the novel. The writer cited a monk who wrote the chronicle of a war against heretics, but (a) the monk could invent those words to reflect his belief that the character was resolute, valiant and pius (b) we need not share the standards of being resolute, valiant and pius with monks and feudal lords of XIII century.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 28 2023 13:29 utc | 858

Aurlien discourses on the futility of US Carrier Deployments..
https://aurelien2022.substack.com/p/useless-in-gaza
So this use-of-force-for political-objectives thing looks a bit more complicated than we thought at first sight, doesn’t it? It also means that you might just get your fingers trapped in the wringer. For example, the US has deployed two carrier battle groups to the eastern Mediterranean. Now, this is a traditional action of governments that have no other options really open to them, and not, of itself, necessarily criticable. In the circumstances there is a political obligation to do something, whatever that something might be. And to be fair, carriers are very useful for evacuating foreign nationals, under military protection or otherwise, as the French showed in Beirut in 2006.
The problem is that it’s virtually certain that the carrier groups have been deployed according to this “do something” logic, which is to say that there is almost certainly no accompanying political strategy: as often, the US is making it up as it goes along. (Talking about “deterrence” or “stabilisation” is not a strategy, it’s an attempt at a justification.) The difficulty with all such deployments, though, is that they are much easier to start than stop. To withdraw the force is to send a political message that you think the crisis is over, or at least manageable, which may not be the message you want to send. So you keep the force in position, and eventually you replace it, because you don’t have any choice. The difficulty is that, apart from evacuations, there’s almost nothing for which the career group can be usefully employed. Intelligence gathering maybe, but there are far easier and more discreet ways of doing that. In the meantime, they are large targets, probably limited to flying patrols and not much else. (I’m assuming that the US would not be so insane as to join in the bombardment of Gaza itself.)
In turn, this reflects the effective impotence of the US in the present conflict. Its historical attempt to combine the positions of independent facilitator with doglike devotion to one side was always dubious, but was tolerated insofar as the country was actually able to have some influence. That’s clearly no longer true. Nobody in the Arab world is going to be influenced by the US now, and it has also ruled itself out of any influence over Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas. Biden’s initial maximalist rhetoric has effectively given away most of the influence the US might have been able to assert over Israel as well. Which doesn’t leave a lot, and doesn’t leave a lot for US military power to actually do, either.
In any event, even if a decision were made to use military power, in a political vacuum, and just to look threatening, what could the US actually do? For the moment, nothing. Now if a major ground invasion were to start in Gaza, and if Hezbollah were to react militarily along the northern frontier, then theoretically the US could target them, but with massive attendant risks to the Lebanese population, and considerable risk of casualties to itself, in other places where there are US troops. Put simply, an attack agains Hezbollah which is large enough to make a difference could cause massive collateral damage to Lebanon, whereas anything smaller will not make a difference anyway. The US has invested massively in the stability of Lebanon in recent years, and is not to going to put that investment in jeopardy now.
There is certainly every chance that Iran would consider a large-scale attack on Hezbollah to be an unfriendly action, and then retaliate. The problem for the Americans is that the Iranians can inflict far more damage on them and their interests than they can inflict on the Iranians. This is nothing to do with the sophistication, or even numbers, of weapons: it’s a lot more mundane than that. Get out a map, and have a look at the region, and ask yourself, where could US carrier groups safely go? Which countries could be expected to provide airfields, ports and harbours and logistic depots? In the present political situation, the answer is probably “none.” No doubt an air- and sea-launched missile attack on Iran could do some damage, but what would be the point? What possible proportional political objective could be served thereby? No conceivable amount of damage caused to Iran could compel the government, for example, to cut off support for Hezbollah, or for the current government in Syria. By contrast, severe damage to a single carrier, even if it were not sunk, would be enough to drive the US out of the region.
Let’s divert to Ukraine, for a moment. It’s fairly clear that the Russians had a very long term objective (perhaps not even a strategy) of living in a Europe which was not a threat to them. It’s doubtful if their thinking had much more detail than that. As the situation began to deteriorate, and NATO became progressively more politically hostile, this strategy became more activist, trying to make it clear, among other things, that Ukraine in NATO, in theory or in practice, would never be acceptable. When this was rejected, and Ukraine became both heavily armed and politically unstable, the Russians went for military option (minimalist at first) in support of the same political objective. They are now conducting a maximalist military option designed to achieve forcibly what could not be achieved politically: a Europe which they do not find threatening. Whether they will succeed is too early to say, but, as good students of Clausewitz, they do at least know how the bits are supposed to go together.
The West has long had fantasies of overthrowing the current Russian political system and dismembering the country, taking it firmly into the “western orbit.” But nothing resembling a plan has ever existed (if you have any experience of NATO you will understand immediately why.) Isolated incidents, such as the entry of new countries, have been welcomed as contributing to this objective, but without anyone being able to explain exactly why and how. At the same time, NATO has adopted a policy of verbal and political hostility, while continually running down its conventional forces and its defence industry, so making itself increasingly less capable of confronting Russia if this hostility produced an equally hostile response, which it has. The only strategy that NATO has had since February 2022, if you can call it that, is to keep the war going in the hope that a miracle occurs, and that Putin is forced from power and replaced by a compliant NATO-friendly figure. That’s it. And by now you may see why it’s not working, and indeed why it never can. For example, NATO cannot fight Ukraine’s battles, and only exercise a loose control over its tactics. Its ability to influence political developments in Kiev is limited. Self-evidently it does not understand what Russian plans are, at any level, so it substitutes fantasies of the restoration of the Soviet Union. and the conquest of Europe. It has no strategy other than hope of forcing a change of government in Russia, and no idea what factors would bring such a change about. It has no understanding of the dynamics of Russian domestic politics, nor by which miracle the overthrow of a moderate President is expected to lead to the emergence of a NATO friendly government, nor the mechanics by which the nationalist parties could be pacified, nor what conceivable concessions a Russian parliament and government could be expected to make. Does that sound to you like a winning strategy? It’s like trying to make an IKEA chest of drawers with the assembly instructions and the list of parts missing.
But if you seek the creation of a national home for one people on a territory occupied by others, then your strategic objective is in practical terms impossible to achieve without violence. Moreover, if we glance back at the list of stages above, it’s clear that you need a clear idea of what that strategic objective amounts to in practice, the objective itself must be politically and practically feasible, there must be a military plan that achieves the necessary preconditions for that objective, you must have the resources to put that plan into effect, and some idea of what sequences of military stages you need to go through to achieve the military plan successfully. It’s not clear to me, as an outside observer, that any Israeli government has ever had a coherent plan along these lines, which is why it is now confronted with the consequences of this failure; (It’s not clear either that a coherent plan of this type, with all the stages I have set out was even possible in the first place.) And the failure to implement the plan has, of course, changed the nature of the problem itself, which is now far more difficult and complex than it was half a century or more ago.
On the subject of vague aspirations, this is the moment to look at the US experience, since they are the other major player staring into the abyss at the moment. It’s true that there has been a long tradition in Washington of wanting to control the oil-producing states of the Middle East (if only to deny control to others) and to support Israel as a forward western base, and an asset ready to carry out tasks the US could not publicly be associated with. Israel has also developed into a main source of intelligence on the Middle East for Washington which not everybody thinks is a good idea. And by the familiar tail-wags-dog process so often found in these relationships, successive Israeli governments have generally established themselves as the dominant partner where it matters
This is not, to put it mildly, a coherent strategy, and indeed the US does not have and never has-had a coherent strategy for the region at anything beyond a declaratory level. Which is why it is in such a mess over Gaza.

The problem is that the disjointed and often incoherent statements coming out of Washington seem to me to imply a government taken by surprise that has no idea what it wants, and so makes up policy from day to day. The risk, of course, is that it will simply be dragged along by Israel, since one of the constants of US non-policy is to avoid public differences with that country, and of course Israel itself will be dragged along by events. There is no knowing where the US will wind up, since, as indicated above, it now has very little influence on any of the principal actors.

He goes on with his analysis. I recommend those interested read it in it’s entirety.
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 28 2023 13:33 utc | 859

Aurlien discourses on the futility of US Carrier Deployments..
https://aurelien2022.substack.com/p/useless-in-gaza
So this use-of-force-for political-objectives thing looks a bit more complicated than we thought at first sight, doesn’t it? It also means that you might just get your fingers trapped in the wringer. For example, the US has deployed two carrier battle groups to the eastern Mediterranean. Now, this is a traditional action of governments that have no other options really open to them, and not, of itself, necessarily criticable. In the circumstances there is a political obligation to do something, whatever that something might be. And to be fair, carriers are very useful for evacuating foreign nationals, under military protection or otherwise, as the French showed in Beirut in 2006.
The problem is that it’s virtually certain that the carrier groups have been deployed according to this “do something” logic, which is to say that there is almost certainly no accompanying political strategy: as often, the US is making it up as it goes along. (Talking about “deterrence” or “stabilisation” is not a strategy, it’s an attempt at a justification.) The difficulty with all such deployments, though, is that they are much easier to start than stop. To withdraw the force is to send a political message that you think the crisis is over, or at least manageable, which may not be the message you want to send. So you keep the force in position, and eventually you replace it, because you don’t have any choice. The difficulty is that, apart from evacuations, there’s almost nothing for which the career group can be usefully employed. Intelligence gathering maybe, but there are far easier and more discreet ways of doing that. In the meantime, they are large targets, probably limited to flying patrols and not much else. (I’m assuming that the US would not be so insane as to join in the bombardment of Gaza itself.)
In turn, this reflects the effective impotence of the US in the present conflict. Its historical attempt to combine the positions of independent facilitator with doglike devotion to one side was always dubious, but was tolerated insofar as the country was actually able to have some influence. That’s clearly no longer true. Nobody in the Arab world is going to be influenced by the US now, and it has also ruled itself out of any influence over Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas. Biden’s initial maximalist rhetoric has effectively given away most of the influence the US might have been able to assert over Israel as well. Which doesn’t leave a lot, and doesn’t leave a lot for US military power to actually do, either.
In any event, even if a decision were made to use military power, in a political vacuum, and just to look threatening, what could the US actually do? For the moment, nothing. Now if a major ground invasion were to start in Gaza, and if Hezbollah were to react militarily along the northern frontier, then theoretically the US could target them, but with massive attendant risks to the Lebanese population, and considerable risk of casualties to itself, in other places where there are US troops. Put simply, an attack agains Hezbollah which is large enough to make a difference could cause massive collateral damage to Lebanon, whereas anything smaller will not make a difference anyway. The US has invested massively in the stability of Lebanon in recent years, and is not to going to put that investment in jeopardy now.
There is certainly every chance that Iran would consider a large-scale attack on Hezbollah to be an unfriendly action, and then retaliate. The problem for the Americans is that the Iranians can inflict far more damage on them and their interests than they can inflict on the Iranians. This is nothing to do with the sophistication, or even numbers, of weapons: it’s a lot more mundane than that. Get out a map, and have a look at the region, and ask yourself, where could US carrier groups safely go? Which countries could be expected to provide airfields, ports and harbours and logistic depots? In the present political situation, the answer is probably “none.” No doubt an air- and sea-launched missile attack on Iran could do some damage, but what would be the point? What possible proportional political objective could be served thereby? No conceivable amount of damage caused to Iran could compel the government, for example, to cut off support for Hezbollah, or for the current government in Syria. By contrast, severe damage to a single carrier, even if it were not sunk, would be enough to drive the US out of the region.
Let’s divert to Ukraine, for a moment. It’s fairly clear that the Russians had a very long term objective (perhaps not even a strategy) of living in a Europe which was not a threat to them. It’s doubtful if their thinking had much more detail than that. As the situation began to deteriorate, and NATO became progressively more politically hostile, this strategy became more activist, trying to make it clear, among other things, that Ukraine in NATO, in theory or in practice, would never be acceptable. When this was rejected, and Ukraine became both heavily armed and politically unstable, the Russians went for military option (minimalist at first) in support of the same political objective. They are now conducting a maximalist military option designed to achieve forcibly what could not be achieved politically: a Europe which they do not find threatening. Whether they will succeed is too early to say, but, as good students of Clausewitz, they do at least know how the bits are supposed to go together.
The West has long had fantasies of overthrowing the current Russian political system and dismembering the country, taking it firmly into the “western orbit.” But nothing resembling a plan has ever existed (if you have any experience of NATO you will understand immediately why.) Isolated incidents, such as the entry of new countries, have been welcomed as contributing to this objective, but without anyone being able to explain exactly why and how. At the same time, NATO has adopted a policy of verbal and political hostility, while continually running down its conventional forces and its defence industry, so making itself increasingly less capable of confronting Russia if this hostility produced an equally hostile response, which it has. The only strategy that NATO has had since February 2022, if you can call it that, is to keep the war going in the hope that a miracle occurs, and that Putin is forced from power and replaced by a compliant NATO-friendly figure. That’s it. And by now you may see why it’s not working, and indeed why it never can. For example, NATO cannot fight Ukraine’s battles, and only exercise a loose control over its tactics. Its ability to influence political developments in Kiev is limited. Self-evidently it does not understand what Russian plans are, at any level, so it substitutes fantasies of the restoration of the Soviet Union. and the conquest of Europe. It has no strategy other than hope of forcing a change of government in Russia, and no idea what factors would bring such a change about. It has no understanding of the dynamics of Russian domestic politics, nor by which miracle the overthrow of a moderate President is expected to lead to the emergence of a NATO friendly government, nor the mechanics by which the nationalist parties could be pacified, nor what conceivable concessions a Russian parliament and government could be expected to make. Does that sound to you like a winning strategy? It’s like trying to make an IKEA chest of drawers with the assembly instructions and the list of parts missing.
But if you seek the creation of a national home for one people on a territory occupied by others, then your strategic objective is in practical terms impossible to achieve without violence. Moreover, if we glance back at the list of stages above, it’s clear that you need a clear idea of what that strategic objective amounts to in practice, the objective itself must be politically and practically feasible, there must be a military plan that achieves the necessary preconditions for that objective, you must have the resources to put that plan into effect, and some idea of what sequences of military stages you need to go through to achieve the military plan successfully. It’s not clear to me, as an outside observer, that any Israeli government has ever had a coherent plan along these lines, which is why it is now confronted with the consequences of this failure; (It’s not clear either that a coherent plan of this type, with all the stages I have set out was even possible in the first place.) And the failure to implement the plan has, of course, changed the nature of the problem itself, which is now far more difficult and complex than it was half a century or more ago.
On the subject of vague aspirations, this is the moment to look at the US experience, since they are the other major player staring into the abyss at the moment. It’s true that there has been a long tradition in Washington of wanting to control the oil-producing states of the Middle East (if only to deny control to others) and to support Israel as a forward western base, and an asset ready to carry out tasks the US could not publicly be associated with. Israel has also developed into a main source of intelligence on the Middle East for Washington which not everybody thinks is a good idea. And by the familiar tail-wags-dog process so often found in these relationships, successive Israeli governments have generally established themselves as the dominant partner where it matters
This is not, to put it mildly, a coherent strategy, and indeed the US does not have and never has-had a coherent strategy for the region at anything beyond a declaratory level. Which is why it is in such a mess over Gaza.

The problem is that the disjointed and often incoherent statements coming out of Washington seem to me to imply a government taken by surprise that has no idea what it wants, and so makes up policy from day to day. The risk, of course, is that it will simply be dragged along by Israel, since one of the constants of US non-policy is to avoid public differences with that country, and of course Israel itself will be dragged along by events. There is no knowing where the US will wind up, since, as indicated above, it now has very little influence on any of the principal actors.

He goes on with his analysis. I recommend those interested read it in it’s entirety.
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 28 2023 13:33 utc | 860

@ Posted by: lex talionis | Oct 28 2023 8:53 utc | 384
Clash still resonates with me and I listen regularly – of many great albums, sandanista album triple is immense.
I have been using some of their songs as part of my ‘no war’ playlist.
Crass were part of my politicisation phase as a 18 year old in 1980.
There were others, Poison Girls the first real feminist anti macho anti nukes band, with a 40 y/o mother of two being the lead! – curiously with the crass as neighbours in were they lived and shared recording costs. The late 70’s early 80’s gave some actual authentic anti state ‘bedroom’ bands. Most didn’t have garages or cellars. As well as a few manufactured items – the Ten Pole Tudor stable, the Police, U2, boom town rats – all showed their true colours as the decade went on.
My favs The Jam, Madness, Selector , various reggae outfits , some amazing artistes and tunes , Echo and Bunnymen etc
All history now. No independent labels, no independent djs and radio stations, no free or cheap festivals, no independent music press – the NME got nukes for supporting Corbyn in the election in 2017 – that whole youth movement that sang his name at festivals.
We ended up with Coldplay and whatever passes as talent now days. I’m can’t tell them apart. They are all woke , sexy , gay or all at the same time. It’s pretty nauseating. Coldvomit music I call it and it’s various poster boys.
All creativity is locked down as part of the cultural propaganda control.
But hey if you are approved you get the fast track to fame with endless play by feckless radio jocks who have no control over their playlists.
The insta band TV shows buried all natural creativity and any politics or protest from popular music.
Anyway I’ll stop there as it’s tracking off topic ..

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 28 2023 13:34 utc | 861

@ Posted by: lex talionis | Oct 28 2023 8:53 utc | 384
Clash still resonates with me and I listen regularly – of many great albums, sandanista album triple is immense.
I have been using some of their songs as part of my ‘no war’ playlist.
Crass were part of my politicisation phase as a 18 year old in 1980.
There were others, Poison Girls the first real feminist anti macho anti nukes band, with a 40 y/o mother of two being the lead! – curiously with the crass as neighbours in were they lived and shared recording costs. The late 70’s early 80’s gave some actual authentic anti state ‘bedroom’ bands. Most didn’t have garages or cellars. As well as a few manufactured items – the Ten Pole Tudor stable, the Police, U2, boom town rats – all showed their true colours as the decade went on.
My favs The Jam, Madness, Selector , various reggae outfits , some amazing artistes and tunes , Echo and Bunnymen etc
All history now. No independent labels, no independent djs and radio stations, no free or cheap festivals, no independent music press – the NME got nukes for supporting Corbyn in the election in 2017 – that whole youth movement that sang his name at festivals.
We ended up with Coldplay and whatever passes as talent now days. I’m can’t tell them apart. They are all woke , sexy , gay or all at the same time. It’s pretty nauseating. Coldvomit music I call it and it’s various poster boys.
All creativity is locked down as part of the cultural propaganda control.
But hey if you are approved you get the fast track to fame with endless play by feckless radio jocks who have no control over their playlists.
The insta band TV shows buried all natural creativity and any politics or protest from popular music.
Anyway I’ll stop there as it’s tracking off topic ..

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 28 2023 13:34 utc | 862

Otherwise, war or a Greater Israel by default, sacrificing the Palestinians, and a failure for the multipolar world.

Time doesn’t stop. The blood of those millions will be directly on Maerica and her cats paw Israel. How exactly do you think that plays out over the next decade or two?
The Maericans and Israelis will have committed the most monstrous crime since the Nazis, in front of the world’s cameras. Meanwhile Maerica continues her now rapid decline.
What schmuck thought this was a good play? The Maericns have bet the farm on intervention. If the world simply allows the inexcusable slaughter of the Palestinians en masse, that’s a failure of everyone on Earth but the odious guilt will forever taint the ‘Shining City on the Hill’.
Complete monsters but also fucking dumb.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 28 2023 13:35 utc | 863

Otherwise, war or a Greater Israel by default, sacrificing the Palestinians, and a failure for the multipolar world.

Time doesn’t stop. The blood of those millions will be directly on Maerica and her cats paw Israel. How exactly do you think that plays out over the next decade or two?
The Maericans and Israelis will have committed the most monstrous crime since the Nazis, in front of the world’s cameras. Meanwhile Maerica continues her now rapid decline.
What schmuck thought this was a good play? The Maericns have bet the farm on intervention. If the world simply allows the inexcusable slaughter of the Palestinians en masse, that’s a failure of everyone on Earth but the odious guilt will forever taint the ‘Shining City on the Hill’.
Complete monsters but also fucking dumb.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Oct 28 2023 13:35 utc | 864

let slip the dogs of war…”
Posted by: Trinculo | Oct 28 2023 12:46 utc | 427
But there are signs of hope, however slim. After Biden’s dog have bitten folks 11 times, the pooch was banned from the White House. So there may be some limits, even if very lax, how much fun we allow our dogs to have. Even The First Dog of United States of America. 11 thousands of Palestinians? 110,000? Impossible to say at this time.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 28 2023 13:37 utc | 865

let slip the dogs of war…”
Posted by: Trinculo | Oct 28 2023 12:46 utc | 427
But there are signs of hope, however slim. After Biden’s dog have bitten folks 11 times, the pooch was banned from the White House. So there may be some limits, even if very lax, how much fun we allow our dogs to have. Even The First Dog of United States of America. 11 thousands of Palestinians? 110,000? Impossible to say at this time.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 28 2023 13:37 utc | 866

Netanyahu may be able to present his chutzpah always as a reaction to something someone else has done, but in fact he presented his bizarre version of cultural appropriation, Bible-thumping, theft and imperialism in his speech at the United Nations General Assembly on September 19, 2017.
“So is there no limit to the UN’s absurdities when it comes to Israel? Well, apparently not. Because in July, UNESCO declared the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron a Palestinian World Heritage Site. That’s worse than fake news; that’s fake history. Mind you, it’s true that Abraham, the father of both Ishmael and Isaac, is buried there, but so, too, are Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca – Sarah’s a Jewish name, by the way – Sarah, Rebecca and Leah, who just happened to be patriarchs and matriarchs of the Jewish people. Well, you won’t read about that in the latest UNESCO report, but if you want to, you can read about it in a somewhat weightier publication. It’s called “the Bible.” I highly recommend it. I hear it even got four and a half out of five stars on Amazon. And it’s a great read. I read it every week.”

Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 13:53 utc | 867

Netanyahu may be able to present his chutzpah always as a reaction to something someone else has done, but in fact he presented his bizarre version of cultural appropriation, Bible-thumping, theft and imperialism in his speech at the United Nations General Assembly on September 19, 2017.
“So is there no limit to the UN’s absurdities when it comes to Israel? Well, apparently not. Because in July, UNESCO declared the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron a Palestinian World Heritage Site. That’s worse than fake news; that’s fake history. Mind you, it’s true that Abraham, the father of both Ishmael and Isaac, is buried there, but so, too, are Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca – Sarah’s a Jewish name, by the way – Sarah, Rebecca and Leah, who just happened to be patriarchs and matriarchs of the Jewish people. Well, you won’t read about that in the latest UNESCO report, but if you want to, you can read about it in a somewhat weightier publication. It’s called “the Bible.” I highly recommend it. I hear it even got four and a half out of five stars on Amazon. And it’s a great read. I read it every week.”

Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 13:53 utc | 868

Empires continue to fall into the trap of history, their “military prowess being invincible”. Ultimately all powers are defeatable, all eventually face the very war they are trying to avoid. They defeat themselves.
https://patternofhistory.wordpress.com/

Posted by: peter mcloughlin | Oct 28 2023 13:59 utc | 869

Empires continue to fall into the trap of history, their “military prowess being invincible”. Ultimately all powers are defeatable, all eventually face the very war they are trying to avoid. They defeat themselves.
https://patternofhistory.wordpress.com/

Posted by: peter mcloughlin | Oct 28 2023 13:59 utc | 870

It is amazing, while they drop bombs on Gaza
they drop lies on the rest of us,
and the “news media” just simply and shamelessly echoes
the lies of murderous thieves.
The same pap as days ago is being repeated over and over again.
Here is a lead paragraph published yesterday. You could probably
find the same drivel repeated a million times, AND no one questions
the source (!) – murderous thieves.

In Vienna, London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels and dozens of other European cities, demonstrations “in support of Palestine” were organised even before the Israelis responded the jihadist pogrom perpetrated by Iran-backed Hamas on October 7, while the corpses of more than 1,400 Israeli victims — tortured, raped, murdered and mutilated, babies decapitated or burned alive — were still warm.

The above is from a Gatestone Institute article reproduced at ZH.
ZH has definitely shown it’s colors. But it is interesting to read the comments.
The commenters are having none of it.
ZH chose to highlight in bold the next paragraph:

All the same, each and every one of these demonstrations in Europe was the scene of hate-filled slogans against Israel and Jews.

It wasn’t long before the article wheeled out the maniac Henry Kissinger for a quote or two. Jeesh.
If you partake of ZH do go straight to the comments.

Posted by: librul | Oct 28 2023 14:00 utc | 871

It is amazing, while they drop bombs on Gaza
they drop lies on the rest of us,
and the “news media” just simply and shamelessly echoes
the lies of murderous thieves.
The same pap as days ago is being repeated over and over again.
Here is a lead paragraph published yesterday. You could probably
find the same drivel repeated a million times, AND no one questions
the source (!) – murderous thieves.

In Vienna, London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels and dozens of other European cities, demonstrations “in support of Palestine” were organised even before the Israelis responded the jihadist pogrom perpetrated by Iran-backed Hamas on October 7, while the corpses of more than 1,400 Israeli victims — tortured, raped, murdered and mutilated, babies decapitated or burned alive — were still warm.

The above is from a Gatestone Institute article reproduced at ZH.
ZH has definitely shown it’s colors. But it is interesting to read the comments.
The commenters are having none of it.
ZH chose to highlight in bold the next paragraph:

All the same, each and every one of these demonstrations in Europe was the scene of hate-filled slogans against Israel and Jews.

It wasn’t long before the article wheeled out the maniac Henry Kissinger for a quote or two. Jeesh.
If you partake of ZH do go straight to the comments.

Posted by: librul | Oct 28 2023 14:00 utc | 872

Roger Boyd weighs in…
https://rogerboyd.substack.com/p/avdiivka-bakhmut-and-gaza-stalingrad
So, the Israelis may certainly be damned if they directly invade Gaza. In addition, the quality, stoicism and morale of the members of the IDF, most of whom have been called up after 2.5 years of previous national service (2 years for women) in a peacetime environment with time mainly spent terrorizing, brutalizing and subjugating unarmed civilians, has to be a major concern for the Israeli leaders. The population of Gaza, half of which is 18 years-old or under, has nowhere to go and has experienced very restricted life possibilities in Gaza. This is the perfect breeding ground for a highly motivated mass army, built around the core of the professional Hamas, fighting in the shattered ruins of their homeland. Sounds very much like Stalingrad doesn’t it! The Israeli leadership have already stated that a ground invasion will take up to 3 months, probably a major underestimate. How will the middle-class Israelis, who have got used to living in “Brooklyn by the Mediterranean”, react to taking mass casualties against a young army more than ready to shed their lives for their homeland? Prior limited outings against Hezbollah do not bode well, and the many female soldiers are not well suited for such physically demanding fighting. Real war is hell, and Hamas seem to have made sure that they are well supplied with weapons and munitions; much of it from Ukraine it seems. There are only 7 million Jews in Israel and the current call up is already creating serious issues for the economy. What if the Gaza campaign stretches well past the 6-month period, Hezbollah opens up the northern front and the West Bank and a section of the Israeli-Palestinian population ignites? The resources of the IDF and the Israeli economy could become overwhelmed, and munitions could quickly run low as we have seen in Ukraine.
The above is why the Israeli and US leadership is hesitating in invading Gaza. The problem is that the status quo of full on siege with continuous indiscriminate bombing cannot go on forever. The reality of 10,000s or even 100,000s of Palestinians dying of thirst, starvation and being blown apart will ignite the region and turn the Israeli population into pariahs outside the Western world, a population that may be in grave danger even that world. No more “Brooklyn on the Mediterranean”, with most probably a slow but increasing emigration of the best, brightest and most financially able citizens from Israel. The cease-fire and resumption of services and supplies that the global community outside the West is demanding would be a declaration of surrender by Israel, with the acceptance that it can never cleanse Gaza and never keep its settler population safe from the populations that it is subjugating. After what has occurred, and the utter failure of Israeli propaganda, there will be mounting pressure to make Gaza truly independent, with all of the rights to its natural resources. The emigration noted above will also be triggered in this scenario.
The least-worst option for the Israelis is that retreat, but that will be very painful and also most probably lead to the end of Netanyahu’s political career and liberty. The civil war in Israel between the Ashkenazi and the Mizrahi will also most probably re-erupt, intensified by the failure of the Mizrahi-dominated Israeli leadership. If the Israelis do not retreat and instead invade, they may very well find their enemies in their rear. Given the Israeli statements about the use of their nuclear arsenal in such a circumstance, and the geopolitical tensions, a much wider war could then be triggered. Just as the Germans probably wished that they had never attacked Stalingrad, the Israelis may come to bemoan their over-reaction to the Hamas incursion.

Damned if you do…. Damned if you don’t……
That is the Israeli/NATO conundrum…..
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 28 2023 14:02 utc | 873

Roger Boyd weighs in…
https://rogerboyd.substack.com/p/avdiivka-bakhmut-and-gaza-stalingrad
So, the Israelis may certainly be damned if they directly invade Gaza. In addition, the quality, stoicism and morale of the members of the IDF, most of whom have been called up after 2.5 years of previous national service (2 years for women) in a peacetime environment with time mainly spent terrorizing, brutalizing and subjugating unarmed civilians, has to be a major concern for the Israeli leaders. The population of Gaza, half of which is 18 years-old or under, has nowhere to go and has experienced very restricted life possibilities in Gaza. This is the perfect breeding ground for a highly motivated mass army, built around the core of the professional Hamas, fighting in the shattered ruins of their homeland. Sounds very much like Stalingrad doesn’t it! The Israeli leadership have already stated that a ground invasion will take up to 3 months, probably a major underestimate. How will the middle-class Israelis, who have got used to living in “Brooklyn by the Mediterranean”, react to taking mass casualties against a young army more than ready to shed their lives for their homeland? Prior limited outings against Hezbollah do not bode well, and the many female soldiers are not well suited for such physically demanding fighting. Real war is hell, and Hamas seem to have made sure that they are well supplied with weapons and munitions; much of it from Ukraine it seems. There are only 7 million Jews in Israel and the current call up is already creating serious issues for the economy. What if the Gaza campaign stretches well past the 6-month period, Hezbollah opens up the northern front and the West Bank and a section of the Israeli-Palestinian population ignites? The resources of the IDF and the Israeli economy could become overwhelmed, and munitions could quickly run low as we have seen in Ukraine.
The above is why the Israeli and US leadership is hesitating in invading Gaza. The problem is that the status quo of full on siege with continuous indiscriminate bombing cannot go on forever. The reality of 10,000s or even 100,000s of Palestinians dying of thirst, starvation and being blown apart will ignite the region and turn the Israeli population into pariahs outside the Western world, a population that may be in grave danger even that world. No more “Brooklyn on the Mediterranean”, with most probably a slow but increasing emigration of the best, brightest and most financially able citizens from Israel. The cease-fire and resumption of services and supplies that the global community outside the West is demanding would be a declaration of surrender by Israel, with the acceptance that it can never cleanse Gaza and never keep its settler population safe from the populations that it is subjugating. After what has occurred, and the utter failure of Israeli propaganda, there will be mounting pressure to make Gaza truly independent, with all of the rights to its natural resources. The emigration noted above will also be triggered in this scenario.
The least-worst option for the Israelis is that retreat, but that will be very painful and also most probably lead to the end of Netanyahu’s political career and liberty. The civil war in Israel between the Ashkenazi and the Mizrahi will also most probably re-erupt, intensified by the failure of the Mizrahi-dominated Israeli leadership. If the Israelis do not retreat and instead invade, they may very well find their enemies in their rear. Given the Israeli statements about the use of their nuclear arsenal in such a circumstance, and the geopolitical tensions, a much wider war could then be triggered. Just as the Germans probably wished that they had never attacked Stalingrad, the Israelis may come to bemoan their over-reaction to the Hamas incursion.

Damned if you do…. Damned if you don’t……
That is the Israeli/NATO conundrum…..
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 28 2023 14:02 utc | 874

The UNGA Ceasefire Resolution vote’s been little mentioned. Here’s the Global Times report on that happening:

The UN General Assembly on Friday passed a non-binding resolution for humanitarian truce in Gaza by a vote of 120-14, and Chinese Ambassador Zhang Jun, Permanent Representative of China to the UN, said China welcomes the resolution and that its overwhelming vote in UN General Assembly reflects the strong call from the majority of member states for a ceasefire and an end to the conflict in the region….
The resolution demands that all parties comply with international law and protect civilians, calls on Israel to revoke the emergency evacuation order in the northern Gaza Strip, and opposes the forced displacement of Palestinian civilians. The resolution reaffirms the need for a just and lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on the “two-state solution.”
It received 120 votes in favor among the 193-member UN General Assembly, and 14 against and 45 abstentions. Israel and the US voted against the resolution for “failing” to mention Hamas. France voted for the truce, while Germany, Italy and Britain abstained, according to media reports.

45 abstentions is @25% and the Resolution lacks UNSC authority, but at least global opinion has finally been assessed which make the Zionists and their backers immoral once again. The weak protest that Hamas wasn’t mentioned doesn’t fool anyone who knows the overall context of the crisis for which the West and the Zionists are Big Time Guilty.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 28 2023 14:05 utc | 875

The UNGA Ceasefire Resolution vote’s been little mentioned. Here’s the Global Times report on that happening:

The UN General Assembly on Friday passed a non-binding resolution for humanitarian truce in Gaza by a vote of 120-14, and Chinese Ambassador Zhang Jun, Permanent Representative of China to the UN, said China welcomes the resolution and that its overwhelming vote in UN General Assembly reflects the strong call from the majority of member states for a ceasefire and an end to the conflict in the region….
The resolution demands that all parties comply with international law and protect civilians, calls on Israel to revoke the emergency evacuation order in the northern Gaza Strip, and opposes the forced displacement of Palestinian civilians. The resolution reaffirms the need for a just and lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on the “two-state solution.”
It received 120 votes in favor among the 193-member UN General Assembly, and 14 against and 45 abstentions. Israel and the US voted against the resolution for “failing” to mention Hamas. France voted for the truce, while Germany, Italy and Britain abstained, according to media reports.

45 abstentions is @25% and the Resolution lacks UNSC authority, but at least global opinion has finally been assessed which make the Zionists and their backers immoral once again. The weak protest that Hamas wasn’t mentioned doesn’t fool anyone who knows the overall context of the crisis for which the West and the Zionists are Big Time Guilty.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 28 2023 14:05 utc | 876

Posted by: librul | Oct 28 2023 14:00 utc | 439
####################
Please post a link.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 28 2023 14:09 utc | 877

Posted by: librul | Oct 28 2023 14:00 utc | 439
####################
Please post a link.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 28 2023 14:09 utc | 878

“Because in July, UNESCO declared the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron a Palestinian World Heritage Site. That’s worse than fake news; that’s fake history. ”
Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 13:53 utc | 437
That’s incorrect. It’s the architecture that is the Palestinian World Heritage, and that’s a right decision.
In any case, who knows if it’s really the tomb of those patriarchs or not. There was a Muslim cult of the Jewish prophets in Palestine, and those tombs reflect that, not the real tombs from the Jewish tradition. The Israelis have just latched on, and taken over the Muslim shrines. In the case of the tomb of Moses south of Jericho, the site doesn’t accord with the Jewish tradition whereby Moses never crossed the Jordan and so the Muslim shrine is ignored, but in other cases where is less certainty the Israelis have just taken over the shrines and prevented Muslims from praying, although they’re Muslim shrines.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 28 2023 14:13 utc | 879

“Because in July, UNESCO declared the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron a Palestinian World Heritage Site. That’s worse than fake news; that’s fake history. ”
Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 13:53 utc | 437
That’s incorrect. It’s the architecture that is the Palestinian World Heritage, and that’s a right decision.
In any case, who knows if it’s really the tomb of those patriarchs or not. There was a Muslim cult of the Jewish prophets in Palestine, and those tombs reflect that, not the real tombs from the Jewish tradition. The Israelis have just latched on, and taken over the Muslim shrines. In the case of the tomb of Moses south of Jericho, the site doesn’t accord with the Jewish tradition whereby Moses never crossed the Jordan and so the Muslim shrine is ignored, but in other cases where is less certainty the Israelis have just taken over the shrines and prevented Muslims from praying, although they’re Muslim shrines.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 28 2023 14:13 utc | 880

In response to

Wang Yi is currently in Washington – my educated (I hope;-) guess is that once he leaves, we’ll see clear signs US won’t intervene in Near East.
Posted by: smuks | Oct 28 2023 6:00 utc | 358

Thanks for the follow up.
You wrote that you think the US markets are calm and I think they are poised for crash landing……we are both casting the entrails of owls here…grin
I do hope you are correct in the effects of the Wang Yi to Washington but am highly skeptical…..and am reading 5K US troops on ground now in Occupied Palestine….sigh
I think that the US/West and its leadership need some sort of military shock/awe event to stop the current momentum and force a new course of direction…..but understand the potential for extinction this level of escalation would bring and that is why my hope is for the markets to crash.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2023 14:15 utc | 881

In response to

Wang Yi is currently in Washington – my educated (I hope;-) guess is that once he leaves, we’ll see clear signs US won’t intervene in Near East.
Posted by: smuks | Oct 28 2023 6:00 utc | 358

Thanks for the follow up.
You wrote that you think the US markets are calm and I think they are poised for crash landing……we are both casting the entrails of owls here…grin
I do hope you are correct in the effects of the Wang Yi to Washington but am highly skeptical…..and am reading 5K US troops on ground now in Occupied Palestine….sigh
I think that the US/West and its leadership need some sort of military shock/awe event to stop the current momentum and force a new course of direction…..but understand the potential for extinction this level of escalation would bring and that is why my hope is for the markets to crash.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2023 14:15 utc | 882

@Norwegian #68
I think people focus too much on false flags and excuses; the reality is that the present US administration needs no such fig leaves.
This is especially true since Europe is presently led by a bunch of US stooges.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 28 2023 14:15 utc | 883

@Norwegian #68
I think people focus too much on false flags and excuses; the reality is that the present US administration needs no such fig leaves.
This is especially true since Europe is presently led by a bunch of US stooges.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 28 2023 14:15 utc | 884

Xinhuanet has a posting up about the Wang Yi meeting in DC
Chinese foreign minister holds talks with U.S. secretary of state
The quotes

The twists and turns in the path of China-U.S. relations this year offer both experience to sum up and lessons to draw, Wang said.
Most importantly, he said, the two sides should adhere to the following “five musts”: must abide by the consensus reached by the two heads of state, must stabilize bilateral relations, must keep communication channels open, must properly manage differences, disputes and frictions, and must promote mutually beneficial cooperation.
In order to stabilize and further improve China-U.S. relations, the two sides should have objective views of each other’s strategic intentions, correctly treat the competitive factors in the exchanges between the two countries, and define the concept of national security, Wang said.
….
Wang and Blinken also exchanged views on international and regional issues, including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Wang said what’s of utmost urgency right now is to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe on a larger scale, and the fundamental way out of the conflict is the two-state solution. Major countries, the foreign minister added, should remain calm, be objective, and uphold justice, while the United Nations should play its due role.
China is willing to work with all parties to activate a mechanism for promoting peace, build wider international consensus on implementing the two-state solution and discuss the provision of more effective international guarantees, Wang said.
Blinken said that maintaining durable peace and stability in the Middle East is in the interests of all parties, and that the U.S. side shares the view that there is a need to return to the implementation of the two-state solution.

Please note that Blinken is on record in this posting as supporting the two-state solution…….

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2023 14:33 utc | 885

Xinhuanet has a posting up about the Wang Yi meeting in DC
Chinese foreign minister holds talks with U.S. secretary of state
The quotes

The twists and turns in the path of China-U.S. relations this year offer both experience to sum up and lessons to draw, Wang said.
Most importantly, he said, the two sides should adhere to the following “five musts”: must abide by the consensus reached by the two heads of state, must stabilize bilateral relations, must keep communication channels open, must properly manage differences, disputes and frictions, and must promote mutually beneficial cooperation.
In order to stabilize and further improve China-U.S. relations, the two sides should have objective views of each other’s strategic intentions, correctly treat the competitive factors in the exchanges between the two countries, and define the concept of national security, Wang said.
….
Wang and Blinken also exchanged views on international and regional issues, including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Wang said what’s of utmost urgency right now is to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe on a larger scale, and the fundamental way out of the conflict is the two-state solution. Major countries, the foreign minister added, should remain calm, be objective, and uphold justice, while the United Nations should play its due role.
China is willing to work with all parties to activate a mechanism for promoting peace, build wider international consensus on implementing the two-state solution and discuss the provision of more effective international guarantees, Wang said.
Blinken said that maintaining durable peace and stability in the Middle East is in the interests of all parties, and that the U.S. side shares the view that there is a need to return to the implementation of the two-state solution.

Please note that Blinken is on record in this posting as supporting the two-state solution…….

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2023 14:33 utc | 886

Please note that Blinken is on record in this posting as supporting the two-state solution…….
Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2023 14:33 utc | 446
____
Kinda meaningless. The “two-state solution” has always been official US policy, even though every sane person has known for decades that that’s just lip service. In fact the USA supports unlimited expansion of the Occupation and consistently opposes Palestinian state aspirations.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 14:42 utc | 887

Please note that Blinken is on record in this posting as supporting the two-state solution…….
Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2023 14:33 utc | 446
____
Kinda meaningless. The “two-state solution” has always been official US policy, even though every sane person has known for decades that that’s just lip service. In fact the USA supports unlimited expansion of the Occupation and consistently opposes Palestinian state aspirations.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 28 2023 14:42 utc | 888

Jorg @ 371 – you are shouting inside a glass booth. And “sharp criticism” would not work. They insist that al Aqsa has to be destroyed to make way for the Third Temple. Alastair Crooke warned about the impasse weeks ago, as have only a few others.

Posted by: Pundita | Oct 28 2023 14:58 utc | 889

Jorg @ 371 – you are shouting inside a glass booth. And “sharp criticism” would not work. They insist that al Aqsa has to be destroyed to make way for the Third Temple. Alastair Crooke warned about the impasse weeks ago, as have only a few others.

Posted by: Pundita | Oct 28 2023 14:58 utc | 890

@ Piotr Berman | Oct 28 2023 13:29 utc | 432
Thanks for the laughs and humor.
Much needed….still in darkness, the shadow of darkness but laughing

Posted by: suzan | Oct 28 2023 15:15 utc | 891

@ Piotr Berman | Oct 28 2023 13:29 utc | 432
Thanks for the laughs and humor.
Much needed….still in darkness, the shadow of darkness but laughing

Posted by: suzan | Oct 28 2023 15:15 utc | 892

That UN vote… what’s with that Oceania block? Every time it seems they just throw their vote in with the USA for whatever ridiculous claim. Are they being pressured, you think? 0.0 Are they being blackmailed by who controls their SPAM futures? 😉
In Oceania, the SPAM must flow.

Posted by: titmouse | Oct 28 2023 16:38 utc | 893

That UN vote… what’s with that Oceania block? Every time it seems they just throw their vote in with the USA for whatever ridiculous claim. Are they being pressured, you think? 0.0 Are they being blackmailed by who controls their SPAM futures? 😉
In Oceania, the SPAM must flow.

Posted by: titmouse | Oct 28 2023 16:38 utc | 894

Doctor Eleven 435

If the world simply allows the inexcusable slaughter of the Palestinians en masse, that’s a failure of everyone on Earth

Well said, I fully agree. Now we have the big and the small Satan in the same theater, doing together what they can do best (while the other small Satan takes a break). Whatever crime they commit and get away with, will only increase their conviction that they are entitled to all of this and make them even more ruthless and greedy. (That is how they describe the Russians. A projection, like so many in this war).
We the Europeans should erect the stop signs and reign the 3 Satans in, not leave this task to Russia, China and the UN Secretary General, let alone to God. There is no God, or he (she?) has no sense of justice. In the US colonial wars, for instance, he always took the wrong side and had those Indians massacred and dying from infections.

Posted by: grunzt | Oct 28 2023 16:52 utc | 895

Doctor Eleven 435

If the world simply allows the inexcusable slaughter of the Palestinians en masse, that’s a failure of everyone on Earth

Well said, I fully agree. Now we have the big and the small Satan in the same theater, doing together what they can do best (while the other small Satan takes a break). Whatever crime they commit and get away with, will only increase their conviction that they are entitled to all of this and make them even more ruthless and greedy. (That is how they describe the Russians. A projection, like so many in this war).
We the Europeans should erect the stop signs and reign the 3 Satans in, not leave this task to Russia, China and the UN Secretary General, let alone to God. There is no God, or he (she?) has no sense of justice. In the US colonial wars, for instance, he always took the wrong side and had those Indians massacred and dying from infections.

Posted by: grunzt | Oct 28 2023 16:52 utc | 896

@Jonathan W:
The idea that the “Greater Israel” should also include what is now called the kingdom of Jordan is already older than the Oded Yenin plan. Part of the symbol used by the Irgun (1931 – 1948) was a map of “Greater Israel” that also included the (current) state of (Trans-)Jordan.
Just look it up on e.g. Wikipedia.

Posted by: Mr. Market | Oct 28 2023 17:07 utc | 897

@Jonathan W:
The idea that the “Greater Israel” should also include what is now called the kingdom of Jordan is already older than the Oded Yenin plan. Part of the symbol used by the Irgun (1931 – 1948) was a map of “Greater Israel” that also included the (current) state of (Trans-)Jordan.
Just look it up on e.g. Wikipedia.

Posted by: Mr. Market | Oct 28 2023 17:07 utc | 898

Instructive, thanks.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 17:23 utc | 899

Instructive, thanks.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Oct 28 2023 17:23 utc | 900