Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 14, 2023

Pro-Israel Propaganda Is Stupid

It is somewhat amazing how low the quality of western propaganda has become. Especially when it relates to hobbyhorses like Israel.

Here is NBCnews testing not only the stupidity of its viewers and readers but also demonstrating the fatuity of its 'journalists'.

'Top secret' Hamas documents show that terrorists intentionally targeted elementary schools and a youth center

Documents exclusively obtained by NBC News show that Hamas created detailed plans to target elementary schools and a youth center in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Sa'ad, to "kill as many people as possible," seize hostages and quickly move them into the Gaza Strip.

The attack plans, which are labeled "top secret" in Arabic, appear to be orders for two highly trained Hamas units to surround and infiltrate villages and target places where civilians, including children, gather. Israeli authorities are still determining the death toll in Kfar Sa'ad.

The documents were found on the bodies of Hamas terrorists by Israeli first responders and shared with NBC News. They include detailed maps and show that Hamas intended to kill or take hostage civilians and school children.

One page labeled “Top Secret” outlines a plan of attack for Kfar Sa’ad, saying “Combat unit 1” is directed to “contain the new Da’at school,” while “Combat unit 2” is to “collect hostages,” “search the Bnei Akiva youth center” and “search the old Da’at school.”

The attack happened in the early hours of October 7, a Saturday.

What do Zionist children do on a Sabbath, before dawn? Are they sitting in school? Do they visit a youth center?

If Hamas terrorists maneuvered around schools to kill children they came at the wrong time and the wrong day.

At least to me that does not seem to be the most plausible explanation for their carefully planned operation.

The Israeli army is going all in. The plan is to push all people in Gaza into the desert of Sinai:

"This is thought out... There is a huge expanse, almost endless space in the Sinai desert, just on the other side of Gaza. ... The idea is for them to leave over for the open areas where we, and the international community, will prepare the infrastructure, ten cities, with food and water... just like for the refugees of Syria that fled the butchering of Asad.... There is a way to receive them all on the other side for temporary time on [sic.] Sinai... and Egypt will have to play ball."

That is from an ex-deputy foreign minister of Israel. If he says "for temporary time" he likely means centuries.

There are clashes in the West Bank where Israel is trying to incite a third intifada. Some 43 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank over the last six days. Nine of them during the last 24 hours. There are also clashes and artillery exchanges along the boarder with Lebanon.

People who try to flee from north to south Gaza get bombed along the evacuation route.

The Times and The Sunday Times @thetimes - 12:41 UTC · Oct 14, 2023

A convoy of vehicles heading south after Israel ordered more than one million Palestinians to leave the north was struck at about 5pm yesterday

Israel also bombed the Jordanian field hospital in Gaza. Neither was unintentionally.

Israel can do that because western politicians and 'journalists' are covering its ass.

They live in the wrong quadrant.


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Posted by b on October 14, 2023 at 13:39 UTC | Permalink

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The new realities being revealed by the conflict in Ukraine show that a defense in depth is the only way to defend FPV drones and a suite of other "irregular" techniques in warfare. Money will not solve it. Iron Dome is ineffective. The final solution for the Jews is to shorten the front line line. Then put a cordon sanitaire along the Egyptian border about 10 km wide.

But that will only work for a while because soon that solution will be overcome by AI.

Posted by: RiNS | Oct 14 2023 13:46 utc | 1

The zionists attacked a column of palestinians, killing many. Is stupid europe ready for another million refugees?

https://t.me/Tatarinov_R/21557

Posted by: Psycho | Oct 14 2023 13:51 utc | 2

that particular tale was pretty exemplary of what they expect to be able to get away with. And in a country with such tight constraints on the free exchange of actual, honest information, works a treat, in their minds. The Organ plays on.

Posted by: Not Ewe | Oct 14 2023 13:53 utc | 3

Western MSM are experts in the so-called 'copy and paste' template news. Mostly computer-driven generated news without regards for veracity and accuracy. This is Ukraine 2.0 - another US proxy war.

Posted by: AI | Oct 14 2023 13:55 utc | 4

Speaking of ridiculous propaganda.

https://t.me/milinfolive/108510

An IDF drone films the launch of Hamas rockets into Israel.

Subsequently, an airstrike is carried out at the launch site.

I guarantee there was nothing at those launch sites except for what you can see in the following photograph (note the clockwork timers):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket#/media/File:Flickr_-_Israel_Defense_Forces_-_Eight_Qassam_Launchers_in_Gaza.jpg

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 14 2023 14:01 utc | 5

Herr Kern: keep thinking with basis on the standards of western superiority ideas of today.
The era of Asia will teach you a few things in case you survive stupidity of current germany.

Posted by: augusto | Oct 14 2023 14:01 utc | 6

@2 Otto Kern

Well they'd be a lot more viable if Israel gave back all the Westbank land it has stolen.

What right has Israel to take that land ?. None, it's a question of force. But if you insist on using force against 2.3 million civilians, you can expect trouble.

Posted by: Judge Barbier | Oct 14 2023 14:07 utc | 7

Well, that makes sense of the current Egyptian border exit requirements:

“Only 500 and only those 500 with USA/Palestinian passports. “ Guessing Egypt not having it.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 14 2023 14:10 utc | 8

-B- another battle for narratives, as all vids surface of Israeli indiscriminate attacks & war crimes, hitting schools ect, the “whataboutism” is their “go to” card. It’s a poor sell in my mind, but the whole thing, the PR campaign hasn’t changed in 40 years.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 14 2023 14:16 utc | 9

That graphic is brilliant, thanks.

Posted by: ikester8 | Oct 14 2023 14:18 utc | 10

Living in the “West,” consuming what passes for mainstream media in the West, it would be almost as hard to understand the motives and methods of the Jewish Fighting Organization in 1943 by reading Nazi propaganda as it would be to understand Hamas today through the western media’s distorted lens.

We can start with where they start the narrative. Very predictably, because their narratives always start the same way. It always begins with “Hamas launched an attack.”

https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/09/the-gaza-ghetto-uprising/

Posted by: hedlykarok | Oct 14 2023 14:21 utc | 11


Good news from the SKWAWKBOX socialist website.

Huge displays of solidarity and defiance in London and around the UK

"Hundreds of thousands have flooded the streets of London, Liverpool, Glasgow and other cities around the UK to support Palestinians and call for an end to Israel's genocide in Gaza - and to defy the political establishment's attempt to ban displays of solidarity with oppressed Palestinians.

"Home Secretary Suella Braverman has told police forces to treat even the wearing or showing of the Palestinian flag as a criminal act to avoid offending Israel's extreme-right government and those who support it - and some have already been arrested - but the mass gatherings are challenging the state's contempt for humanity and human rights, with footage showing a sea of people, many carrying Palestine flags and representations of them:

"The French have shown similar contempt for Macron's ban on Palestinian symbols. Meanwhile, Germany has disgracefully made the Palestinian freedom slogan, 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' a criminal offence, despite Israel's apparent plan, as former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has observed, to obliterate Gaza.

"The Starmeroid Labour party 'opposition', meanwhile, has sided unequivocally with the oppressors and their apartheid regime, backing Israel's 'right' to commit war crimes against Palestinians - and has banned MPs from participating in pro-Palestinian demos.."
Link to videos:
https://skwawkbox.org/2023/10/14/video-mass-demos-defy-flag-ban-to-march-in-support-of-palestinians/

Posted by: bevin | Oct 14 2023 14:23 utc | 12

According to Johannes Steizinger, “human animals” was a term frequently used by the Nazi race theorists about Jews, Slavs, gypsies, and blacks, who held that “only some groups of people “groups of people meet the metaphysical criterion of being human. Members of these groups are considered as essentially and hence fully human. However, other groups are reduced to the biological sense of being human. They simply lack the metaphysical essence of humanity and are thus characterized as human animals. These creatures are human only from the naturalistic point of view, but not human from a metaphysical point of view. Thus, they are regarded as subhumans who are not fully human.” (Johnannes Steizinger, The Significance of Dehumanization: Nazi Ideology and Its Psychological Consequences, 2018.)

Posted by: hedlykarok | Oct 14 2023 14:24 utc | 13

IMO, this whole thing would come to a swifter conclusion if we always replace the words Israel and Zionism (and their derivatives) with the word Jew or Jewish. Rip off the band-aid hiding the truth.

Posted by: gottlieb | Oct 14 2023 14:31 utc | 14

hedlykarok@13
You are right. It was also used by the SS veteran and hero of the political caste Yaroslav Hunka who, in his memoirs, described the Russians as "beasts with red stars on their foreheads."
The animal nature of slavs has become a policy of the EU in recent months. Folowing Ukrainian nationalist propaganda, all derived from Goebbels fertile brain, they have agreed upon the shorthand that animals live in the wild jungle wheras mankind inhabits a garden.
Which is precisely the formulation that Ariel Sharon employed to justify massacring Palestinian 'animals.'

Posted by: bevin | Oct 14 2023 14:33 utc | 15

Posted by: bevin | Oct 14 2023 14:23 utc | 12

Yes, I'm delighted (and not surprised) that the ban on pro-Palestinian demonstrations has been ignored, with very large numbers at the UK demos at least.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 14 2023 14:35 utc | 16

Carve out a piece of land between Germany and Poland and give the surviving European Jews back the lands and property stolen from them by Germany, France and Poland.
Europe owes European Jews, not the residents of Palestine.
Somehow Europe has embraced and sheltered Mohamed's followers and rejected the self-described Chosen People. What Europe (and Britain) say and what they do are exact opposites.

Posted by: kupkee | Oct 14 2023 14:39 utc | 17

Europe owes European Jews, not the residents of Palestine.

Posted by: kupkee | Oct 14 2023 14:39 utc | 17

We owe them nothing.

Posted by: Tichy | Oct 14 2023 14:41 utc | 18

What could be the Israeli ground operation in the Gaza Strip: Part 1

If the Israeli leadership decides to launch a ground operation, the IDF will have to choose between a bad and very bad scenario.

Will there be a ground operation?

A large-scale ground operation is one possible scenario, but it is not at all certain that it will be chosen. Perhaps the Israeli leadership will choose a less radical option with the establishment of a complete blockade of the enclave and private operations to destroy identified Hamas militants and free the hostages.

Why is a ground operation necessary?

It may be required for physical control of the territory of the Palestinian enclave, without which it is impossible to destroy the personnel and infrastructure of the Hamas movement. Carrying out these tasks without the presence of ground forces “on the ground” is impossible. However, deciding on a large-scale ground operation is not easy for many reasons.

Which ones?

First, Israel will have to fight in a super-urbanized area of ​​365 square meters. km, where more than 2 million people live in dense urban areas. This environment minimizes the IDF's advantages in reconnaissance, aviation, and heavy equipment.

Secondly, after a series of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza, a significant number of residents are ready to join the ranks of Hamas. In fact, the Islamists sit on a huge and well-motivated mobilization reserve. According to various estimates, from 250 thousand to 600 thousand Palestinians of different ages could take up arms in Gaza.

Thirdly, the IDF forces, despite the concentration of forces, have not yet encountered active opposition from well-armed groups. Apparently, Israel needed the mobilization of 320 thousand people to respond to possible attempts at external intervention and take into account the potential involvement in the conflict of Hezbollah, the IRGC, as well as Muslim volunteers from neighboring countries - Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq.

If additional troops and weapons arrive from these countries to fight on the side of the Palestinians, the current level of mobilization may not be enough for Israel.

Fourthly, the death of high-ranking officers of the Golani and Nahal ground brigades, along with their personnel, showed that Israel is only partially prepared for large-scale, and especially urban, battles. The training of reservists and even regular forces is uneven, and not all units are ready for active combat operations. This is evidenced, for example, by repeated cases of “friendly fire” between units of Israeli security forces that have been recorded in recent days. At the same time, the Israeli army does not have time for additional training and combat coordination of the mobilized.

What could this lead to?

The ground battle for Gaza will be neither easy nor quick. Everyone, including Tel Aviv, understands this well. The operation will require Israel to attract significant resources - human, material, and political.

In addition, the ground operation will most likely be extremely bloody. It is now difficult to predict the level of losses, but the experience of the battles of the US Army for Mosul or the Syrian Army for Aleppo suggests that we will be talking about tens of thousands of killed and wounded.

However, it should be emphasized that Israel has historically been more sensitive to losses than its opponents. There is a possibility that a protracted operation coupled with high casualties could hurt public and political support.

A detailed analysis of the features of the IDF operation in the Gaza Strip will come soon in the second part of the analysis.


https://t.me/Slavyangrad/68139

Posted by: Down South | Oct 14 2023 14:44 utc | 19

What could be the Israeli ground operation in the Gaza Strip: Part 2.

The difficulties that the Israeli army may encounter in the future may leave their mark on the conduct of the ground operation.

Is the Israeli army ready to fight in the city?

In the first part we touched on the general conditions of a ground operation; now it is necessary to analyze the terrain and conditions in which the IDF and Hamas will have to operate against each other.

A significant portion of IDF soldiers and reservists have not been trained to fight in an urban environment, or this training is no longer sufficient. For example, under normal conditions, IDF soldiers expect their flanks to be covered, a secure rear, and stable communications with command and neighboring units. However, in urban battles such conditions will not exist. In the case of the IDF, units prepared for operations in urban areas can be found in the YAMAM police special forces and other anti-terrorism groups, but for the most part, the IDF is poorly prepared for a full-scale war in the city.

The psychological factor is no less important. Any window, any piece of concrete, or passage can be a source of danger. Using the example of the failure of the Delta special forces in Somalia, as well as the US Army’s battles for Mosul or Fallujah in Iraq, it has been proven that soldiers quickly get tired of constant stress and can break down psychologically.

It is necessary to prepare for battles in such conditions, both individually and collectively. The Israeli army does not have such massive training, and there was nowhere for it to appear, since operations of this scale had not been planned for many years.

What are the features of battles in an urban environment?

Urban combat is three- and even four-dimensional. Every soldier must expect that an attack will come not only from the front, rear, or flanks but also from above or below. In addition, by indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza Strip, the IDF created (or at least aggravated) another problem - it increased the motivation of the local population for armed struggle. While in Iraq, Syria, or Afghanistan the armies had to deal with neutral rather than hostile populations in the theater of operations, in Gaza the vast majority of the population is radically opposed to Israel. This, in turn, means that there will be no safe zones for the IDF, and Hamas will have eyes, ears, and fighters everywhere.

How will the terrain affect the battles?

If a ground operation were to begin, the IDF would have to operate in dense residential areas, which would significantly limit maneuver. But the destroyed city complicates it even more.

In such conditions, it will no longer be possible to bring a mechanized brigade into the destroyed street, since it will have nowhere to turn around. This means that the main combat operations will have to be carried out by assault groups - sometimes with the support of armored vehicles, sometimes with the support of aviation or artillery. But the advantages of the mass of equipment, the advantages of high-precision weapons, and the advantages of air surveillance in this case will be practically reduced to nothing.

Hamas, on the contrary, has a developed network of communications on the ground and underground in Gaza. Given that the movement's members operate on their own territory, as well as the knowledge of communications and the support of the population, Hamas will be able to maneuver its forces relatively easily and strike where they are not expected.

In addition, Hamas strikes on Israel have shown that small drones, suicide bombers, a variety of anti-tank weapons, and mines/IEDs can quickly be included in an attack pattern. Even physically clearing a sector of all living things does not guarantee its safety: enemy groups can, for example, reach the rear through underground communications or disappear among civilians and carry out a series of terrorist attacks.

It is important to understand that Hamas has significant reserves of fuel, weapons, food, medicine, and ammunition. They will suffer the least from the bombing, which means that Israeli actions, if not useless, then have minimal impact on the enemy.


https://t.me/Slavyangrad/68141

Posted by: Down South | Oct 14 2023 14:45 utc | 20

Israel started a big propaganda offensive on Youtube. Before every video I like to watch, I see one of their propaganda clips: https://www.youtube.com/@IsraelMFA/videos

Posted by: Apollyon | Oct 14 2023 14:46 utc | 21

There's a demo in Paris this afternoon. The MSM say several hundred, quite a lot according to the video, with a kid being arrested for waving a Palestinian flag. The problem in France is that a high-school teacher was stabbed to death on Friday, apparently by a Muslim Chechen, and they're all concentrating on that rather than Palestine. Though of course it's being picked on as a Hamas supporter, it seems that the former pupil had some personal grievances, and it's nothing to do with Gaza.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 14 2023 14:47 utc | 22

The great Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk wrote a piece for The Independent in 2018 to mark the passing of Uri Avnery just before his 95th birthday. Avnery had been born in Germany but his family emigrated to Brisih Mandate Palestine in 1933 after the Nazis came to power. He had been a member of the Irgun paramilitary (Zionist terrorist group) form age 15-19. He had fought in the Israeli army in the 1948 Israeli-Arab war. He had been a journalist, writer, politician (Knesset member), and peace activist. The standout quote from the article is the following, which I don't recall reading previously, and which seems extremely relevant to today's situation:

"I will tell you something about the Holocaust. It would be nice to believe that people who have undergone suffering have been purified by suffering. But it's the opposite, it makes them worse. It corrupts. There is something in suffering that creates a kind of egoism. Herzog [the Israeli president at the time] was speaking at the site of the concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen but he spoke only about the Jews. How could he not mention that others – many others – had suffered there? Sick people, when they are in pain, cannot speak about anyone but themselves. And when such monstrous things have happened to your people, you feel nothing can be compared to it. You get a moral "power of attorney", a permit to do anything you want – because nothing can compare to what has happened to us. This is a moral immunity which is very clearly felt in Israel."

Posted by: tawharanui | Oct 14 2023 14:47 utc | 23

It is somewhat amazing how low the quality of western propaganda has become. Especially when it relates to hobbyhorses like Israel.

- b

counterpoint:

First, a disagreement about "western propaganda". The global propaganda system has (as in Covid) moved in remarkable lockstep down to identical phrasing in various languages e.g. "social distancing" and "vaccines".

Second, feigned incompetence is a viable tactic and can not be dismissed.

Three, unity of factions in the "West" is not a given and can not be unquestionably assumed,

Four, Multiplicity of goals in a given operation is not unheard of, nor beyond the capabilities of what, after all, is a highly successful and well trained propaganda infrastructure, and resources.

Conclusion: Israel is being boxed by the actual planet controllers -- note the muted propaganda fight _in_ the western "propaganda" regarding "leaked intellgence" "Egypt" and Netanyahu. This is because the current power faction in Israel is [drums] ... TALMUDIC.

Where as the Global controllers are Satanic. A somewhat important distinction that does, apparently, needs to be made.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 14:53 utc | 24

This is why you don't listen to what people say about themselves but instead watch what they do. If it's true for people, it's imperitive when dealing with blood lusting imperialists and their satellites, like Israel.

The killing kids thing is so salacious and unlikely that anyone who knows anything about Israel should immediately reject the idea until real evidence is presented.

The Israeli media propaganda against the Palestinian people is an echo of the anti Jewish propaganda used by the Nazis and white Russians after 1917. Once again, it seems they crassly imitate their former persecutors.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 14:53 utc | 25

Posted by: bevin | Oct 14 2023 14:23 utc | 12

Blighty’s owner-operators can’t seem to get enough of stuffing its increasingly degenerate government with Wallace & Gromit extras.

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 14 2023 14:57 utc | 26

Fun quotes by Zionists:


1. “It is impossible for a man to become assimilated with people whose blood is different from his own. ...We shall never allow such things as mixed marriage because the preservation of national integrity is impossible except by means of racial purity and for that purpose we will have this territory where our people will constitute the racially pure inhabitants.”
(Vladimir Jabotinsky)

2. “The deepest layers of our being are determined by our blood; our innermost thinking and our will are colored by it.”
(Martin Buber)


3. “Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad is rooted in present needs, in future hopes of far profounder import than the desires of the 700,000 plus Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land”
(Arthur Balfour)

4. “A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice except to expel that population.”
(Benny Morris)

5. “We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state. Instead of Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You do not even know the names of those villages, and I don’t blame you because the villages no longer exist. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village.”
(Moshe Dayan, 1969)


6. “If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I would opt for the second alternative.”
( David Ben-Gurion)

Posted by: Dosamuno | Oct 14 2023 14:57 utc | 27

Down South | Oct 14 2023 14:45 utc | 20

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/68141

"What are the features of battles in an urban environment?

Urban combat is three- and even four-dimensional. Every soldier must expect that an attack will come not only from the front, rear, or flanks but also from above or below. In addition, by indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza Strip, the IDF created another problem...

How will the terrain affect the battles?

If a ground operation were to begin, the IDF would have to operate in dense residential areas, which would significantly limit maneuver. But the destroyed city complicates it even more.

In such conditions, it will no longer be possible to bring a mechanized brigade into the destroyed street, since it will have nowhere to turn around. This means that the main combat operations will have to be carried out by assault groups - sometimes with the support of armored vehicles, sometimes with the support of aviation or artillery. But the advantages of the mass of equipment, the advantages of high-precision weapons, and the advantages of air surveillance in this case will be practically reduced to nothing.

Hamas, on the contrary, has a developed network of communications on the ground and underground in Gaza. Given that the movement's members operate on their own territory, as well as the knowledge of communications and the support of the population, Hamas will be able to maneuver its forces relatively easily and strike where they are not expected."

It's looking to become just like Stalingrad, simultaneous with the Hezbollah rocket barrage shattering the Zionist cities. I don't see why anyone assumes this is gonna be a cakewalk for the Zionists, especially since their reservists have no belly for it.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Oct 14 2023 15:08 utc | 28

Where as the Global controllers are Satanic. A somewhat important distinction that does, apparently, needs to be made.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 14:53 utc | 24

I'm not sure you need to conjure Satan to explain why a dying empire of war mongers and billionaire oligarchs would seek the deaths of millions of innocents to desperately seek to retain their dominion over the globe.

You know it's happened at least twice before?

Their actions are anti social and anti human, revolting, murderous, etc. Nonetheless, evil deeds are merely the vehicle for a material goal: undermine the rising middle east, Russia, China and any other nation/region that joins them against US imperialism.

Also, it is unquestionable that Israel has tremendous influence over US imperialism and has successfully via AIPAC directed US imperialism's foreign policy to it's benefit. War on Iraq in 2003 is probably the most glaring example.

For more recent examples just look at the bipartisan, uniform, blind loyalty to the state of Israel amongst the political/media elite of the US.

You should read this book by Mershheimer: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy https://g.co/kgs/CkYMuA

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 15:08 utc | 29

Blighty’s owner-operators can’t seem to get enough of stuffing its increasingly degenerate government with Wallace & Gromit extras.
Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 14 2023 14:57 utc | 26

That is the best single sentence description of the privatized west I have ever seen. London and New York. The two competing financial centers of the world that also operate together to form a cartel.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 14 2023 15:10 utc | 30

Down south -

Thanks for posting that overview of the military question re: invasion of Gaza.

My thoughts:
1) Hamas says they have 500km of tunnels
2) Hamas has prepared since before 2014
3) Likud can’t afford a war lasting more than a few weeks for a host of reasons
4) IDF conscripts versus Haredim refuseniks is a big theme in Israeli society.

Conclusion - Hamas will do everything possible to drag this out for a long long time. The longer the IDF is engaged in battles with Hamas shoot & shoot teams the more divisions in Israeli society will grow, plus the more likely for other forces to join the fight against the IDF. Hamas has gamed all of this out.

I’m gonna guess that Hamas will have prepared for a extraordinarily long siege - akin to the Siege of Leningrad. 2 years.

What’s the IDF response ?

Likely a starve ‘em out scenario, with the addition of long range arty and carpet bombing. Keep it a low key attack

Posted by: Exile | Oct 14 2023 15:12 utc | 31

Replying to post 20:

How is it that you refer to Gazan defense or counterattacks against the invading IDF as terrorist attacks? WTF

Posted by: Pym of Nantucket | Oct 14 2023 15:15 utc | 32

Now all the pieces of Hamas's Hitlerism are falling into place just as in an Agatha Christie movie. And yet I do wonder if these detailed confessions of Hamas's, just like their glitzy video documentation of their bloodthirsty attack, are not very much like Hollywood props & plot devices, during which the supervillain candidly confesses his plans for unleashing chaos upon the world and/or world domination to James Bond, or, in this case, Netanyahu Bond (alias Oct 007).

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 14 2023 15:16 utc | 33

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 14 2023 15:10 utc | 30

Too kind, what a world =)

Posted by: anon2020 | Oct 14 2023 15:16 utc | 34

Egypt has to play ball? Egypt has and doesn’t want anything to do with this. Who do the Israelis think they are pushing another country to deal with a problem of their own creation? No wonder many people don’t have any respect for them.

Posted by: Jose Garcia | Oct 14 2023 15:19 utc | 35

Ah yes, of course.


Terrorist tip 137:

Make sure every militant in your high-risk raid, has a highly detailed (and uncoded) written list of the entire operation and objectives. Also make sure it's labelled "Top Secret" in big red letters.

Or was that tip 136, I'm not sure...

Posted by: Urban Fox | Oct 14 2023 15:21 utc | 36

"the Berlin public prosecutor’s office has criminalized the use of the phrase “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.”

So, there's the forbidden battle cry. Commit it to memory and speak it to any genocidal pro Israel maniac you encounter. Vandals, make yourself useful and spray paint this on every wall in the west!

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 15:21 utc | 37

@Apollyon | Oct 14 2023 14:46 utc | 21

Israel started a big propaganda offensive on Youtube. Before every video I like to watch, I see one of their propaganda clips: https://www.youtube.com/@IsraelMFA/videos
Use the Brave Browser and you see zero Youtube ads by default. I have yet to see a YouTube ad, and I watch many.

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 14 2023 15:24 utc | 38

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 15:08 utc | 29

I wrote earlier about the importance of control of the mind for rule. Activities of Zionist mind control have always -only- been applied in USA, as far as I am aware. Identity between "USA" and the long running empire is an error, imo.

Given the nature of the regimes that (apparently) oppose "empire" (but insist on asserting a false identity between that and a specific nation-state) the promise of "multi-polar" world will not usher in an age of sanity. It simply is a progression along the march towards global governance.

USA stands, legally and structurally, in the path of actual Global Goverment. This was obvious as far back as 9/11. We know based on the events of 9/11 operation that near-peer powers *must* have been colluding with elements within US security means or possibly had penetrated it.

It is 9/11 that -forced- USA to embark on a path of (obvious) madness and lose its perch of "Hyperpower" that it enjoyed since the fall of USSR.

USA was -forced- to respond in the manner it did. That was not the work of some Jihadis, I assure you.

Israel today is also being -forced- to respond in the manner it is doing. It will be dimished just as USA was diminished.

A Global Government with a Unifed World Religion. UFOs may or may not be involved in this show. Stay tuned.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 15:25 utc | 39

Posted by: bevin | Oct 14 2023 14:23 utc | 12

Thanks for the link Bevin. It’s nice to see that not all citizens of the West are as pathetically supine as my fellow Americans.

Posted by: KMRIA | Oct 14 2023 15:32 utc | 40

It is somewhat amazing how low the quality of western propaganda has become.

- b

---

Quantity has a quality all its own.

Posted by: too scents | Oct 14 2023 15:33 utc | 41

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 14 2023 14:35 utc | 16

###################

Governments assume and depend upon compliance. IMO, that's a big reason why men in the West have become soft, with bad diets, mindless entertainment, and pron. Dopamine-addicted and cowed men are easy to rule.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:33 utc | 42

Can someone wiser then me explain why Putin feels the need to make such , over the top, statements in regards to Israel ? I dont get it.

" Speaking after a press conference concluding his two-day visit to Kyrgyzstan on Friday, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that “Israel, of course, faced an unprecedented attack, which has never happened in history, and not only in scale, but also in the nature of its execution, in cruelty.”

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 15:33 utc | 43

RE: Ludo | Oct 14 2023 15:16 utc | 33

Sure, it’s a movie.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 14 2023 15:34 utc | 44

Posted by: hedlykarok | Oct 14 2023 14:24 utc | 13

Since I've lived a long time and been "around" I remember that Israelis and Zionist Jews in the USA usually got around, in private conversations, that not only are Arabs and, after the Shah was overthrown, Persians were not only animals but their culture was barbarian at best. To those of us who have studied history and enjoy music, art, poetry, and so on that notion is insane. But that's the point of Nazism and Zionism (it's amazing at how close the two have become) is to divide the world into an us and them. Many Zionists, for example, believe that non-Jews are not fully human which is why their young people in uniform have no problem with treating Palestinians badly. And it's getting worse. Israel is now fully fascist despite the readers of Haaretz's more liberal views. As many Nazis were proud of Western civilization including music, art (just not modern), literature, philosophy and so on they still maintained a brutal view of the "inferior" races including Poles and Russians who were not regarded as Europeans and thus deserving of respect.

I had a Jewish friend who was a brilliant and well-read who was a high government official in the Pentagon who was pleasant and liberal in every way but when Israel came up it was like he suddenly showed his fangs--reason departed and Hell took its place. These Zionists, many of whom are in powerful positions in the national security state, are not loyal to the USA but to Israel. Some in the blob agree with me privately but would never state that publicly.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Oct 14 2023 15:39 utc | 45

We owe them nothing.

Posted by: Tichy | Oct 14 2023 14:41 utc | 18

Let us visit the archives to recall what tichy thinks is owed to Ukronazis.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 14 2023 15:45 utc | 46

Soon there will be a list of propaganda lies as it happened for the Ukraine threads.

Posted by: Mario | Oct 14 2023 15:45 utc | 47

Can someone wiser then me explain why Putin feels the need to make such , over the top, statements in regards to Israel ? I dont get it.

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 15:33 utc | 43

Let see:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg

You might as well as "can someone please explain to me what sort of mad men drew up that map?"

My reading of the conflict -- open to correction here -- is that throughout this conflict there has always been the possibility for one or the other side to totally defeat the other side and end the conflict once and for all.

In each episode in this timeline, external powers make sure that it ends in a configuration that will insure continued conflict both as a physical and political reality in the middle east, as well as creating an emotionally charged psychological divide in humanity.

Raising the level of hate for demons can't feed on love.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 15:48 utc | 48

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 15:08 utc | 29

################

The use of the word Satan is important because, among believers, it's the temptation to do evil. It's to be constantly resisted and guarded against. It is that which leads people into degeneracy and self-destruction. The whispers that drive despair and atrocities.

As far as I am aware, atheists have no similar conception.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:49 utc | 49

FYI propaganda is not just about fooling people. It can also be a statement of power: you WILL publicly accept that this is the care or you WILL be crushed - your personal beliefs don't matter. Is pro-Israeli propaganda 'foolish' - or will it prove to be effective? Time will tell.

But I can't wait for the United States to be used a dumping ground for all these Palestinians. Don't laugh: there is a good chance that it's coming. We solve Israel's problem, and the rich get even more cheap labor, what's not to like? And even the staunchest advocate of Palestinian rights might end up with a tiny tiny sliver of sympathy for the Israelis...

Posted by: TG | Oct 14 2023 15:51 utc | 50

As far as I am aware, atheists have no similar conception.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:49 utc | 49

Interesting. So did "atheist" USSR generally do more good or more evil than the Christian west around the globe?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 14 2023 15:54 utc | 51

Can someone wiser then me explain why Putin feels the need to make such , over the top, statements in regards to Israel ? I dont get it.

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 15:33 utc | 43

#################

Why not? He's a confident and successful world leader who is taking a position on a matter of massive importance, particularly to his newest BRICs partners in Egypt, Ethiopia, Iran, UAE, and KSA.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:54 utc | 52

"It is somewhat amazing how low the quality of western propaganda has become.

- b"

The only purpose of the mass mainstream media is to promote the agenda of the powerful. That's why you'll see debates between the likes of Condasleeza Rice and Hillary. That is one's "choice". Ditto for the content of the MSM across the board.

It's not really low quality; it is precisely focused.

From the other side of the coin, we see censorship such as EU is trying to impose. [What will Musk do???] Ultimately, when the only word for color is red, everything will be red. This is an assault on mind and one's ability to think, not only to speak. I personally wonder if humans can even live at all under such conditions.

Posted by: oracle | Oct 14 2023 15:55 utc | 53

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 14 2023 15:54 utc | 51

################

I don't understand the relevance of the question. Are you aware of an atheist explanation for evil, presuming that evil is even a concept to atheists, who don't have a particular moral philosophy? And if so, please enlighten me. I haven't been atheistic in a long time.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:56 utc | 54

"Europe owes European Jews, not the residents of Palestine."
kupkee | Oct 14 2023 14:39 utc | 17

We owe them nothing.
Tichy | Oct 14 2023 14:41 utc | 18

Europe and Russia created this mess. It's been going on for centuries. I don't know if you owe them but that's a historical fact.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Oct 14 2023 15:58 utc | 55

But I can't wait for the United States to be used a dumping ground for all these Palestinians.

Posted by: TG | Oct 14 2023 15:51 utc | 50

---

If you can't wait you can visit Dearborn Michigan any time.

Posted by: too scents | Oct 14 2023 15:59 utc | 56

Some interesting TIMING that should be investigated further (via FOIA)

TOMORROW, Wednesday OCT. 4: There will be a nationwide emergency alert test sent to all TVs, radios, and cell phones at 2:20 p.m. ET.
— FEMA (@fema) October 3, 2023

Low and behold, less than 12 hours later, in Jerusalem
Over 800 Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa compound during Jewish Sukkot holiday.

Rabbis, heads of settlement associations and far-right university lecturers were among 832 people who stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound on Thursday morning.


Archived from The New Arab

Posted by: The Archivist | Oct 14 2023 16:00 utc | 57

More lies by wording from Reuters

Tens of thousands rally in Mideast, West to support Israel, Palestinians

Rallies spread across the Middle East and parts of Asia, Europe and the U.S. in support of Palestinians, while Jewish communities came out in solidarity with Israel after last week's Hamas attack and Israel's retaliation.

Reading the first part would lead you to think there is more support for Occupied Palestine than the real Palestinians...and then they obfuscate the truth in the second part....Reuters is slimy at best

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 14 2023 16:00 utc | 58

Posted by: tawharanui | Oct 14 2023 14:47 utc | 23

While there is truth in the quote you cite, it overlooks an essential fact - that “nothing can compare to what has happened to us” becomes widely accepted, and is implanted in national and cultural identity (unique, supreme victimhood), ONLY if, and when, it is preached by the political, intellectual, cultural and religious authorities and the main media. That’s what generates the feeling of ‘moral immunity’ among a large part of a population.

Great individual and collective suffering does not per se corrupt. It humbles and typically leads to compassion, solidarity with others’ suffering and opposition to violence and war.

Only when the collective painful experience is abused by particular interests cloaked in rhetoric of national interest and security does it lead to a social infection and malady which ultimately deeply harms that very society.

So, there is a lesson to finally be learned - be ware of those who cry crocodile tears over the terrible fate and perpetual victimisation of their nation that confers on it exceptional status and special rights. The tears are false. The preachers are blinded by their a-historical and often anti-human beliefs, or are outright crooks who will lead their nation to certain ruin, if they are given the chance.

Posted by: JB | Oct 14 2023 16:00 utc | 59

Four overriding myths have shaped the consciousness of most people in our society about Zionism.

The first is that of “A land without a people for a people without a land.” This myth was sedulously cultivated by early Zionists to promote the fiction that Palestine was a remote, desolate place ready for the taking. This claim was quickly followed by denial of Palestinian identity, nationhood or legitimate entitlement to the land in which the Palestinian people have lived throughout their recorded history.*

The second is the myth of Israeli democracy. Innumerable newspaper stories or television references to the Israeli state are followed by the assertion that it is the only “real” democracy in the Middle East. In fact, Israel is as democratic as the apartheid state of South Africa. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria.

The third myth is that of “security” as the motor force of Israeli foreign policy. Zionists maintain that their state must be the fourth largest military power in the world because Israel has been forced to defend itself against imminent menace from primitive, hate-consumed Arab masses only recently dropped from the trees.

The fourth myth is that of Zionism as the moral legatee of the victims of the Holocaust. This is at once the most pervasive and insidious of the myths about Zionism. Ideologues for the Zionist movement have wrapped themselves in the collective shroud of the six million Jews who fell victim to Nazi mass murder. The bitter and cruel irony of this false claim is that the Zionist movement itself actively colluded with Nazism from its inception.

To most people it appears anomalous that the Zionist movement, which forever invokes the horror of the Holocaust, should have collaborated actively with the most vicious enemy ever faced by the Jews. The record, however, reveals not merely common interests but a deep ideological affinity rooted in the extreme chauvinism which they share.

*Arab population in Palestine in 1947, at time of partition, was 1,181,000.

Ralph Schoenman, THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF ZIONISM


I may have posted this before.
If so, apologies to site host and fellow commentators.

Posted by: Dosamuno | Oct 14 2023 16:02 utc | 60

" Why not? He's a confident and successful world leader who is taking a position on a matter of massive importance, particularly to his newest BRICs partners in Egypt, Ethiopia, Iran, UAE, and KSA.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:54 utc | 52 "


I dont understand. Why would he need to exaggerate the " suffering " of Israel ? For instance, the following is not even historically true and definitely not true in the current situation. Very confusing to me.

" faced an unprecedented attack, which has never happened in history, and not only in scale, but also in the nature of its execution, in cruelty.”

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 16:02 utc | 61

Maybe there is some hope in this world

❗️NEW: BBC HQ Surrounded By Protesters Chanting Accusations Of Bias Reporting 🇬🇧 https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/34750

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 14 2023 16:03 utc | 62

As far as I am aware, atheists have no similar conception.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:49 utc | 49

Interesting. So did "atheist" USSR generally do more good or more evil than the Christian west around the globe?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 14 2023 15:54 utc | 51

Good point, Tom. I'm sure that based on the same religious obscurantism many Israelis justify the genocide as a struggle with Satanic Palestinians.

The bar is not a lot of peasants from the middle ages. The level of discussion here should remain in the material world.

But let's leave the religious Kulturkampf for another thread and focus on the issue at hand.

Here's a fun article/video of a Berlin teacher slapping a student for his support of a disfavored oppressed people:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/13/cjdr-o13.html

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 16:03 utc | 63

reply to 35

Egypt is largely a US vassal - and are paid to be peaceful with Israel. The US keeps Sisi in power because if they didn't, the Muslim Brotherhood would come back and push for war with Israel.
So, it's possible Egypt can be bribed by the US into accepting refugees (who can starve or otherwise die off in the desert).

A measure of justice is possible when the Haredim take over Israel and their economy and military decay. Secular Israelis need to emigrate because they'll have no future in Israel in maybe 40 years or so. They are utter suckers if they just go along with Netanyahu in moving Israel towards Jewish religious extremism.

Posted by: Eighthman | Oct 14 2023 16:04 utc | 64

" Raising the level of hate for demons can't feed on love.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 15:48 utc | 48 "


Thanks for responding, but how do you explain statements like:

" unprecedented attack, which has never happened in history, and not only in scale, but also in the nature of its execution, in cruelty.”

We all know that these assertions are false. " never happened in history " ? " not only in scale, but also in the nature of its execution, in cruelty. " ?

Really ??

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 16:06 utc | 65

The effort to paint everybody even the slightest bit critical of Israel as a bloodthirsty terrorist is so over the top blatant there is a whiff of panic in the air.

Posted by: chunga | Oct 14 2023 16:07 utc | 66

@ chunga | Oct 14 2023 16:07 utc | 67

Indeed, you are right.

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 14 2023 16:09 utc | 67

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 15:33 utc | 43
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your keyboard warrior tactics are not working but keep trying.

Posted by: AI | Oct 14 2023 16:11 utc | 68

Vandals, make yourself useful and spray paint this on every wall in the west!

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 15:21 utc | 37

Some in Berlin did this, entire blocks incl. sidewalks sprayed with pro-Palaestine / anti-Israel slogans. And then the police came and over-sprayed it during the whole night…

https://www.berliner-kurier.de/berlin/hetz-parolen-gegen-israel-so-keimt-nachts-der-hass-in-berlin-auf-li.2148050

Posted by: Zet | Oct 14 2023 16:12 utc | 69

Alan Macleod has a great story about this @
https://www.mintpressnews.com/propaganda-blitz-how-mainstream-media-is-pushing-fake-palestine-stories/285992/

Turns out Shani Louk, who I saw in a great number of western media stories and was suppose to be raped and killed by Hamas, turns out to be alive and in a Gaza hospital.

The one time maybe I thought western MSM was finally telling the truth turned to be a pack of lies once again.

Posted by: Autumn | Oct 14 2023 16:14 utc | 70

Ordinary Egyptians are carrying food and water for the residents of Gaza, crossing the desert on foot.
However the Rafah crossing remains closed - the sole border crossing from Gaza into Egypt.
https://t.me/inessas1992/4941

Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 14 2023 16:15 utc | 71

Posted by: Autumn | Oct 14 2023 16:14 utc | 71

reminds of that US woman who iirc was in the military and got captured, and was "rescued" by an assault team that wrecked the hospital where she was being treated.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 14 2023 16:18 utc | 72

USA was -forced- to respond in the manner it did. That was not the work of some Jihadis, I assure you.

Israel today is also being -forced- to respond in the manner it is doing. It will be dimished just as USA was diminished.

A Global Government with a Unifed World Religion. UFOs may or may not be involved in this show. Stay tuned.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 15:25 utc | 39

The ruling class of a dying imperialism certainly feels it must do all these things, sure, but the idea it has no other choices is wrong.

The aforementioned Mershheimer presents a much saner imperialist foreign policy which is ignored. I look forward to the collapse of US imperialism, so if they want to go faster or slower into that good night, that's their decision.

Nonetheless, they are not compelled by some unseen force to wage a doomed war with Russia/China or to go so full retard in their support of Israel that they become entangled in a war throughout the entire middle east either.

The western RC has consciously chosen these options. They see it as being in their own class interest. They see it as the only hope to save their quickly waining global dominion, like a desperate gambler with his last bit of cash.

If you think some unseen force beyond the imperialist ruling class itself is guiding things, what is it in your mind?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 16:19 utc | 73

" Your keyboard warrior tactics are not working but keep trying.

Posted by: AI | Oct 14 2023 16:11 utc | 69 "


Why would you say that? Am I not allowed to ask questions ?

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 16:21 utc | 74

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:56 utc | 55

I think the burden is on you to demonstrate how the concept of evil requires a skygod.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 14 2023 16:25 utc | 75

Since the western media ran out of Israeli baby heads to count, they had to find, somehow, dead school kids at the wrong time of the wrong day. In Ukraine, the western news media can blame Ukraine for providing un-bashful misinformation, in Israel, who are spreading fake news? The eager ones, of course !!!!! No outsourcing this time, more profitable direct from US news corporations/OGAs.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Oct 14 2023 16:25 utc | 76

A great 12-minute video:

Dr. Gabor Maté on Israel and Palestine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6_GDDa4bmI

(For those that know of journalist Aaron Maté from Grayzone, the Jimmy Dore Show, etc., this is his father.)

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Oct 14 2023 16:31 utc | 77

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 16:21 utc | 75
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It's easy to see what a Russofobic looks like from miles away....and you know it.

Posted by: AI | Oct 14 2023 16:32 utc | 78

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Oct 14 2023 16:25 utc | 76

i would be interested to know if LoveDonbass had any conception of evil while still an atheist, but i fear the thread being derailed into a theological discussion (not by you) so I won't ask.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 14 2023 16:36 utc | 79

@ Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 14:53 utc | 25

Zionists Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, its first prime minister, believed as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt, that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.

Posted by: majoab | Oct 14 2023 16:38 utc | 80

not forgetting journalists in Lebanon...IDF"apologised".

Targetting any vehicle columns.groups of people..any phones reporting truths.. just like Afghanistan?

Posted by: Jo | Oct 14 2023 16:41 utc | 81

We all know that these assertions are false.

Posted by: Moonie | Oct 14 2023 16:06 utc | 66

They too know (!) that we know these assertions are false. You don't get to that level being an idiot. These are sharp people. All of them.

They also know that this fact means very little. Didn't they all "know" that their story of 9/11 was so ridiculous that it was practically begging for conspiracy theories?

Or (attention b) were their "propaganda failings", such as putting obviously black men with a turban and telling us "this is Bin Landen confessing" not obvious to themselves?

I remember back 20+ years ago thinking that they contempt for us is so complete that they don't even bother trying to provide a figleaf for us to take cover in forcing ourselves to go along with the narrative.

It was in our face.

--

If you think some unseen force beyond the imperialist ruling class itself is guiding things, what is it in your mind?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 14 2023 16:19 utc | 74

People were vocally making objections to West, specially under Clinton, handing over various sensitive technology and knowhow to China. That it would end precisely as it did wasn't an obscure conclusion. Just like knowing that invading Iraq and breaking it would -not- serve US interests.

I don't know who these people are, but they are the sort of people whose familiies seem untouched by cataclysms that befall their compatriots (e.g. industrialists in post Nazi Germany). The nation-state construct (as they see it) is simply a matter from 19th century. Given that they were mainly nurtured during British Empire, they also have deep ties to elite families in former colonies. For example, many Mullah families in Iran were benefitiaries of B.E. largess in 19th and early 20th centuries.

You mention 'class' which is a categorical lens partitioning a 'whole', a socio-economic society. I suggest to you that there exist people who do -not- consider their distinctions from the 'other' as a matter of 'class differences'. It's something else - something they believe in.

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 16:44 utc | 82

Trapped at my retired parents house in Phoenix for the week. 24-7 FUX news. They keep talking about beheaded babies.
Got into with my Dad. If they had video footage of that they would run edited clips 24-7 in their atrocity porn coverage
We haven’t evolved from babies on German bayonets 1914 to Kuwaiti incubator babies 1990

Posted by: Anunnaki | Oct 14 2023 16:47 utc | 83

I don't understand the relevance of the question. Are you aware of an atheist explanation for evil, presuming that evil is even a concept to atheists, who don't have a particular moral philosophy? And if so, please enlighten me. I haven't been atheistic in a long time.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 14 2023 15:56 utc | 55

Atheists absolutely have a moral philosophy, and that philosophy is what led most of us to reject religion, among other things, and we do indeed view evil as a concept.
It is as simple as this- Harming others specifically for personal or group gain is evil. Evil people/groups harm others for personal or group gain- regularly and unapologetically. This is the core of our belief and that belief is what leads us to reject religion.
We have, for instance, (beyond the physical improbability) a problem with Christianity because of Christianity's concept of sin. Leaving aside the beliefs that many so-called sins are ridiculous (such as the long held belief that homosexuality was/is a sin), the big problem is the idea that the evil/harm to others that you do is wiped off your slate simply by asking Jesus/God for forgiveness. Sorry, but no. We don't accept that. Your victims/those effected by the evil you perpetrate are the only ones that can grant forgiveness. Even then, we may very well continue to see you as an asshole and refuse to associate with you.
There is this bullshit belief that Atheists are not moral and that we do not have a moral philosophy. You could not be more wrong.
As an atheist I will confidently tell you that Zionism is profoundly evil, and I do not need any religion to provide me with any kind of moral compass or otherwise dictate that fact to me. I can come to that understanding just fine without any religion/religious framework. I have serious doubts you were ever an atheist.

Posted by: Arkady Bogdanov | Oct 14 2023 16:48 utc | 84

@laguerre #22:

The problem in France is that a high-school teacher was stabbed to death on Friday, apparently by a Muslim Chechen…

He’s not Chechen, he’s Ingush.

Posted by: S | Oct 14 2023 16:49 utc | 85

I think read somewhere that the 40 dead babies plan to vote Democratic in the next years elections.....

Posted by: Cato | Oct 14 2023 16:49 utc | 86

Hamas terrorists can't do anything unless they print out their top secret mission strategy on A4 paper, put it in their briefcase with their lunch and spare ammo, then kiss the mrs goodbye and head to work.
This of course is the image that western propaganda potrays, it's related to the everyday working man. Crass and pathetic.

Posted by: Eoin Clancy | Oct 14 2023 16:50 utc | 87

Posted by: S | Oct 14 2023 16:49 utc | 86

Thanks for the correction.

Posted by: laguerre | Oct 14 2023 16:53 utc | 88

Eoin Clancy | Oct 14 2023 16:50 utc | 88

They (TPTB) convinced the world that they found a passport of a hijacker on 911 in the rubble of towers, it kind of worked - so they're running with it.

Posted by: Cato | Oct 14 2023 16:54 utc | 89

@ tawharanui | Oct 14 2023 14:47 utc | 23

Post of the day, so far -- that quote from Uri Avnery has mind-blowing explanatory power: the Holocaust bestowing a perverse moral exceptionalism, "a permit to do anything you want – because nothing can compare to what has happened to us... a moral immunity which is very clearly felt in Israel."

Unlike many here, I'm not a hater of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. In any of those theological philosophies, folks can sift through to find what's healing and beautiful about humanity, while others search for poisons -- manifest whenever pen meets papyrus. Once upon a time a school of perennial philosophers sought a common spiritual thread underlying Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic systems. (I'm alluding to Aldous Huxley, here, and you know that was a hell of a long time ago.)

I'm old enough that beauty is a nutrient, not a luxury. Because there's so much sarcasm on the Internet, perhaps I can convey my sincerity by sharing a link to the most beautiful expression of Judaism I can think of -- a timeless dance called "Flatbush Waltz" by the inimitable mandolin & clarinet virtuoso Andy Statman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFWXzchj98s

The above is background for what I say now: the concept of a Jewish State, called Israel, has destroyed Judaism. Possibly for good. Flatbush Waltz is such a dirge.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Oct 14 2023 16:55 utc | 90

Remember
Israeli victims of Hamas are killed
Palestinian victims of Israel merely have died

Are Palestinians even considered human beings by the BBC?

Posted by: Anunnaki | Oct 14 2023 16:56 utc | 91

"A Light unto the Nations"

This was the dream and promise of Israel.

"A light unto the nations",
the light has gone out.

The Zionist experiment is a failure.

Posted by: librul | Oct 14 2023 16:56 utc | 92

This is just anecdotal, but I spoke with several persons yesterday - CBC radio / NPR listeners - who had reacted very negatively to news of Israel's 24 hour ultimatum in Gaza. The cruel arrogance of that demand had popped whatever bubble of benefit-of-the-doubt towards Israel that may have been previously established. Across the public in general, support for Israel and support for western government's lockstep is likely much thinner than presumed.

Posted by: jayc | Oct 14 2023 16:59 utc | 93

Posted by: Arkady Bogdanov | Oct 14 2023 16:48 utc | 85

You are correct that one does require Moses and Mt Sinai scale events to arrive at say "do not steal." A lot of say 10 commandments are self evident to many ethical frameworks.

The issue with pure reason is that it limits access to the truth. The issue is that the means of arriving at conclusion are limited to matter such as 'langauge', and 'logic', and 'mathematics', 'empiricism', and 'computation'. Each and everyone of these methodologies and technologies is known to have 'gaps' and 'limitations'.

The believers position is indeed that it is precisely in regards to 'undecidable matters' that God's input is required.

Here is an ethical question for an atheist:

It is know that a subset of society is genetically destined to underperform others. Shouldn't we just prevent the propagation of faulty genes?

More generally:

Does the end justify the means?

The theist ethical framework -- all life is 'sacred' -- provides a clear answer. The pure rational approach is driven into a difficult and possibly brutal decision matrix that may indeed engender "evil".

Posted by: robinthehood | Oct 14 2023 16:59 utc | 94

the concept of a Jewish State, called Israel, has destroyed Judaism. Possibly for good.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Oct 14 2023 16:55 utc | 91

---

"A relationship, I think, is like a shark. You know? It has to constantly move forward or it dies. And I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark."

Annie Hall

Posted by: too scents | Oct 14 2023 17:03 utc | 95

To Eighthman: The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood would push for war with Israel if in power? Laughable! When Morsi was in power in 2012-2013 he did whatever the Israelis wanted, sent jihadists to Syria and financed the war against Assad. He even wanted to sell Israel part of the Sinai.
The Brotherhood is a creation of the British in the 1920ies, masonic like networking with a caritative facade. Hamas was at the beginning sponsored by the Brotherhood (and armed by Mossad) in order to destabilize Arafat's Fatah end the Palestinian left.

Posted by: Teraspol | Oct 14 2023 17:04 utc | 96

What is it with the Supernova festival? On the one hand Hamas claim they avoid killing civilians, on the other hand there would be 260 dead. Was it the intent to kill many people? Do they consider all grownups as not civilians? Was it too chaotic? Have the numbers been inflated? Were the abducted people included? Was it mostly men?

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Oct 14 2023 17:06 utc | 97

@Arkady Bogdanov| #85

Reductive materialists, whom Christians and other barbarians call "atheists", never burned witches nor tortured infidels nor carried out an Inquisition. Reductive materialists never led crusades that resulted in the deaths of Jews and Muslims—or about a million non-conforming Christians during the Albigensian Crusade. Atheists didn't kill 10 million atheists during the Thirty Years War.
"Atheists" weren't responsible for the slave trade. It was initiated by Catholic Spain and Portugal and carried on by other Christian countries.

The Nazis were Christians, not atheists. The Swastika is but a twisted cross. They were supported and abetted by extreme right Christian groups in Croatia, Ukraine, and Hungary, among other places.

"Le religioni sono le armi più potenti che il Male abbia mai escogitato."
—Tino di Bacco

(Religions are the deadliest weapons that Evil ever devised)

Posted by: Dosamuno | Oct 14 2023 17:06 utc | 98

Moonie has a valid point regarding Putin’s statement; it does appear uncharacteristically hyperbolic compared to the usual Presidential statements.

My guess is that it was a deliberate measure taken to try and demonstrate the necessary impartiality for mediation.

Putin has both a Russian Jewish diaspora in Israel and a large Muslim population to balance; he can speak privately to Russian Muslim leaders but can only address the Jewish contingent by public pronouncements.

Also, as a potential mediator, he had to balance previous statements comparing the Israeli siege of Gaza with the siege of Stalingrad, with some sympathy for the Israeli position.

It is a possible explanation.

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Oct 14 2023 17:08 utc | 99

@19

The incredible blogger Simplicius

https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/israeli-ground-forces-get-cold-feet


Posted by: Anunnaki | Oct 14 2023 17:10 utc | 100

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