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October 26, 2023
Palestine Open Thread 2023-252
Comments
“terrorist” “nazi” “hegemon” are these term defined? I think it pertinent to note that as an occupied population, can Gazans really be called ‘terrorists’? why don’t they call them “resistance fighters” why don’t they call them ‘rebels’, ‘partisans’, “paramilitary’, it’s all in the wording. The nuance is slight but the impact is severe. ‘Ethnic cleansing’ or ‘genocide”. Lets call a spade a spade. Israeli ruling class want the people who live in Palestine, to get the @#$% out, no bones about it. It’s been going on for three and a half centuries. Most of the land disputes are about access to water anyway. Check a map and you will see the correlation between aquifers and settlements. Of course the Israelis have a “right” to be there as do the others. What matters is the west’s ability to influence and guess what, Israel is a very powerful lobby group in the US of A. Why would we think anything could be different? It’s all farcical. A parody, a play. It’s theatrics. ‘All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players’. This is the best show since Ukraine. “Standing room only” Intermission… Ice Cream available at the kiosk. .ACT II… Nuclear exchange. Enter stage right: Russia peels off a salvo: US responds with loud chatter and bellicose expression. Up lights: cue Global concern. END
Posted by: Trinculo | Oct 26 2023 17:12 utc | 201
“terrorist” “nazi” “hegemon” are these term defined? I think it pertinent to note that as an occupied population, can Gazans really be called ‘terrorists’? why don’t they call them “resistance fighters” why don’t they call them ‘rebels’, ‘partisans’, “paramilitary’, it’s all in the wording. The nuance is slight but the impact is severe. ‘Ethnic cleansing’ or ‘genocide”. Lets call a spade a spade. Israeli ruling class want the people who live in Palestine, to get the @#$% out, no bones about it. It’s been going on for three and a half centuries. Most of the land disputes are about access to water anyway. Check a map and you will see the correlation between aquifers and settlements. Of course the Israelis have a “right” to be there as do the others. What matters is the west’s ability to influence and guess what, Israel is a very powerful lobby group in the US of A. Why would we think anything could be different? It’s all farcical. A parody, a play. It’s theatrics. ‘All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players’. This is the best show since Ukraine. “Standing room only” Intermission… Ice Cream available at the kiosk. .ACT II… Nuclear exchange. Enter stage right: Russia peels off a salvo: US responds with loud chatter and bellicose expression. Up lights: cue Global concern. END
Posted by: Trinculo | Oct 26 2023 17:12 utc | 202
As an exaggerated example, a couple of nuclear bombs going off in Israel would likely end the occupation; but I’m sure you’d agree this would be an incredibly immoral act of genocidal terror.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:00 utc | 97
By the way, this is not an exaggerated example.
This is the Zionist Coloniser’s Samson Option:
The Samson Option (Hebrew: ברירת שמשון, b’rerat shimshon) is the name that some military analysts and authors have given to Israel’s deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a “last resort” against a country whose military has invaded and/or destroyed much of Israel
Interestingly, neither Hamas, Hezbollah nor any other Palestinian liberation movement has ever articulated such an idea …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 26 2023 17:15 utc | 203
As an exaggerated example, a couple of nuclear bombs going off in Israel would likely end the occupation; but I’m sure you’d agree this would be an incredibly immoral act of genocidal terror.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:00 utc | 97
By the way, this is not an exaggerated example.
This is the Zionist Coloniser’s Samson Option:
The Samson Option (Hebrew: ברירת שמשון, b’rerat shimshon) is the name that some military analysts and authors have given to Israel’s deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a “last resort” against a country whose military has invaded and/or destroyed much of Israel
Interestingly, neither Hamas, Hezbollah nor any other Palestinian liberation movement has ever articulated such an idea …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 26 2023 17:15 utc | 204
10 month deployments ??????
Those carriers are tragedies waiting to happen. They just don‘t know it yet.
(Landsmen haven’t idea how much stuff breaks on ships at sea)
Posted by: Exile | Oct 26 2023 17:16 utc | 205
10 month deployments ??????
Those carriers are tragedies waiting to happen. They just don‘t know it yet.
(Landsmen haven’t idea how much stuff breaks on ships at sea)
Posted by: Exile | Oct 26 2023 17:16 utc | 206
Re questions about US Carriers. The US also has smaller Carriers that have F35B, Helos, and Osprey aircraft. They are used in support of US Marines Amphibious Assault Units.
I believe there is now 1 ARG unit deployed in the eastern Med.
The standard ARG consists of three Navy ships: an amphibious assault ship (LHD/LHA), an amphibious transport dock (LPD), and a dock landing ship (LSD). Together, they can transport more than 2,000 Marines ashore via air or surface.
The Amphibious assault ship is the aircraft carrier.
Posted by: Golddigger | Oct 26 2023 17:16 utc | 207
Re questions about US Carriers. The US also has smaller Carriers that have F35B, Helos, and Osprey aircraft. They are used in support of US Marines Amphibious Assault Units.
I believe there is now 1 ARG unit deployed in the eastern Med.
The standard ARG consists of three Navy ships: an amphibious assault ship (LHD/LHA), an amphibious transport dock (LPD), and a dock landing ship (LSD). Together, they can transport more than 2,000 Marines ashore via air or surface.
The Amphibious assault ship is the aircraft carrier.
Posted by: Golddigger | Oct 26 2023 17:16 utc | 208
LoveDonbass – Sorry for my longwindedness … I just like calling things as they are. Acts of terror against civilians are acts of terror no matter who commits them. Hurting and killing civilians is wrong no matter who commits them. I did not think these were controversial positions by and large …
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:17 utc | 209
LoveDonbass – Sorry for my longwindedness … I just like calling things as they are. Acts of terror against civilians are acts of terror no matter who commits them. Hurting and killing civilians is wrong no matter who commits them. I did not think these were controversial positions by and large …
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:17 utc | 210
Caliman@62
The problem lies in your premiss which is that Hamas militia from Gaza attacked civilians in order to intimidate them.
We still do not know exactly what happened but it would appear that the Gazan guerrilla forces attacked military installations and ran across a suddenly re-scheduled Rave* at which they became involved in a battle with IDF personnel and armed settlers.
There is no evidence that most of the casualties among civilians at the Rave were the result of anything more than crossfire. And it should be noted that, of the two parties, the IDF and the guerrillas, one was trying to take prisoners for hostage purposes the other was interested in keeping the number of hostages low.
The truth would seem to be that, as can be judged from the treatment accorded to their hostages, the Hamas fighters acted, on the whole with remarkable discipline and in accordance with the very best traditions of warfare.
This is a dispute in which almost all the hatred appears to be coming from the Israeli side- where it is nourished by fanatical religio-nationalists and ‘revisionist’ (fascist) zionists for whom encouraging race and religious hatred is a strategy.
An indication of this is the relish with which the ‘blood libel’ of the 40 beheaded babies was broadcast as quickly as it could be. This transparent falsehood, which nobody with any understanding of Hamas or Islam would believe, was designed to produce the level of hatred needed to prepare the world for the ‘eradication’ of Hamas by wiping out Gaza itself.
The truth, which ought to inspire us all, is that the break out from Gaza was conducted with exemplary morality as well as military efficiency. That such actions can emanate from a persecuted, surveilled, starved and terrorised population is noteworthy itself, though we have seen such things before, the Warsaw ghetto being one example. But what is best is that Hamas appears to have disciplined hatred out of its agents. Largely because fighting through a haze of blood and hatred is not a recipe for the clearheaded ability to improvise that is taught to infantrymen. But also so that the world can see that the people of Gaza practise the humanity and generosity that they preach.
God bless them.
* Note; Raves, for obvious reasons, are regularly held at locations disclosed only a few hours beforehand.
Posted by: bevin | Oct 26 2023 17:18 utc | 211
Caliman@62
The problem lies in your premiss which is that Hamas militia from Gaza attacked civilians in order to intimidate them.
We still do not know exactly what happened but it would appear that the Gazan guerrilla forces attacked military installations and ran across a suddenly re-scheduled Rave* at which they became involved in a battle with IDF personnel and armed settlers.
There is no evidence that most of the casualties among civilians at the Rave were the result of anything more than crossfire. And it should be noted that, of the two parties, the IDF and the guerrillas, one was trying to take prisoners for hostage purposes the other was interested in keeping the number of hostages low.
The truth would seem to be that, as can be judged from the treatment accorded to their hostages, the Hamas fighters acted, on the whole with remarkable discipline and in accordance with the very best traditions of warfare.
This is a dispute in which almost all the hatred appears to be coming from the Israeli side- where it is nourished by fanatical religio-nationalists and ‘revisionist’ (fascist) zionists for whom encouraging race and religious hatred is a strategy.
An indication of this is the relish with which the ‘blood libel’ of the 40 beheaded babies was broadcast as quickly as it could be. This transparent falsehood, which nobody with any understanding of Hamas or Islam would believe, was designed to produce the level of hatred needed to prepare the world for the ‘eradication’ of Hamas by wiping out Gaza itself.
The truth, which ought to inspire us all, is that the break out from Gaza was conducted with exemplary morality as well as military efficiency. That such actions can emanate from a persecuted, surveilled, starved and terrorised population is noteworthy itself, though we have seen such things before, the Warsaw ghetto being one example. But what is best is that Hamas appears to have disciplined hatred out of its agents. Largely because fighting through a haze of blood and hatred is not a recipe for the clearheaded ability to improvise that is taught to infantrymen. But also so that the world can see that the people of Gaza practise the humanity and generosity that they preach.
God bless them.
* Note; Raves, for obvious reasons, are regularly held at locations disclosed only a few hours beforehand.
Posted by: bevin | Oct 26 2023 17:18 utc | 212
Posted by: laguerre | Oct 26 2023 14:04 utc | 8
You asked about these moves being made by the U.S. military – “80 heavy lift aircraft from the US flew into the Middle East yesterday carrying unknown weaponry and/or troops.”
I’m going to go out on a big ass limb here to try and give a possible answer to this question.
Over here in the good ole USA, Americans have been held captive by an extremely intense ‘above our heads’ information war. I know some here will disagree but honestly, I don’t really care. Not b/c others opinions don’t matter, b/c they do, normally, but there has been nothing normal inside the US and its policy decisions, honestly, since 2016 (yes – one could certainly go back further in time). At least as it relates to DC and the Pentagon; most especially the Pentagon.
The old days of reading maneuvers and counter moves to get a sense of what is happening, especially in foreign policy/national security, is rendered useless these days due to the amount of fog we’re living thru – there’s a ton of it – everywhere.
Folks on the outside have greater clarity than the average American does. Applying the normal ‘connect the dots’ to any Pentagon effort is futile simply because we’re not living in anything remotely close to normal.
If you look back at Ukraine’s response to Russia’s SMO you will quickly see “the US military hand” that certainly empowered Ukrainian troops on the ground to fight and the congressional swamp throwing billions into a black hole, but you will also clearly see a ‘hands off of Russian territory.’ Yes, F-16s were promised with the US military knowing full well the training, hell, learning to speak English, will take a lot of time. Ditto with other military hardware, long-range to be more precise, that could penetrate Russia’s territory and civilian population. And if I read correctly on one of these threads recently, Russia has recently employed weaponry that is taking out Ukraine’s Su’s and drones at an alarming rate.
All of the above is my way of saying “Time” as in “buying Time” has become a priority in Pentagon policy. I have my educated guesses as to why but will keep them to myself.
Question. Have you ever seen a US military backed War that forbade our allies from attacking their foes at home? Seriously. Have you? Why would the Pentagon arm Ukrainians to fight Russians IN Ukraine, but not provide weaponry to attack Russians in Russia? It doesn’t make any sense, does it? Who knew missiles, tanks, drones were to stop at borders. But that’s in essence what the Pentagon’s policy has been in Ukraine. There are only a few reasons for such logic. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with a ‘rules based order’ nor the neocons running State.
So now we have the US engaging in the Middle East with land, sea and air military assets being moved to strategic locations throughout – “80 heavy lift aircraft from the US flew into the Middle East yesterday carrying unknown weaponry and/or troops.” Trust, we will see more such pronouncements in the days ahead. Are they true? Or just for show? Or do these announcements of these massive shipments achieve other military/policy goals.
I can think of one – Israel has been forced by the US to pause the ground invasion into Gaza until these assets are in place.
The world is watching the US military position its assets literally engulfing pretty much the entire Middle East. Intimidation? Possibly. My educated guess is twofold – whomever is leading the Pentagon/US military, this operation, which I have my guesses, but whomever it is literally understands the meaning of two very important concepts as they pertain to conflict the value of “time” and the projection of “power”.
Time = moving these assets into place, holding the IDF at bay, allowing for factual information to surface about Oct 7, allowing for allies and foes alike to ‘breath’, allowing for Israeli’s themselves to come to grips with what is happening internally, providing space for quiet diplomatic talks, providing space for allies and foes alike to align or not and so much more.
Power = Full US military might to possibly be used to a) contain the war, b) flex its muscles – intimidation/fear – get inside decision-makers heads, c) force the players to the table to once and for all (my hopeful and very naïve wish) resolve this miserable conflict by forcing ALL PARTIES to the table and/or ????
In this information war we are living thru here in the US it’s important to know about and then learn to read the shadows as in the moves being made ever so subtly and knowing who to listen to/read/follow. If, and it’s a big IF, but if as many are saying Biden is not the leader but rather Obama, could you see Obama using “Time” in this manner? Nope. The word “strategic” is nowhere to be found on Obama’s resume. There seems to be another hand at play and it’s one that understands the value of “Time” and knows fully how to project “Power.”
I’m confident this isn’t the answer you were looking for but in my understanding of all of this big fat mess it’s the only ideas that make a lick of sense to me. No one wants war; especially against such a powerless people and no one wants genocide EVER. So, the question becomes how does one slow down Nuttyahoo’s train wreck. For heavens sakes even Trump outed the guy a week or so ago.
You see in Ukraine that “hand” made sure NATOs response stopped at the Russian border, that is unless Russia did something to cause a re-think of said policy, and it’s that same hand who is buying time – at least temporarily by announcing “80 heavy lift aircraft from the US flew into the Middle East yesterday carrying unknown weaponry and/or troops” – while also flexing US military muscle for all the world to see.
I can’t imagine how much “Time” it’s going to take to deliver, unload, position, get crews into place and so much more for these assets to be ready to roll as well as more that I’m sure are on the way…and then there’s the training…
Know, laguerre, I could never say this at any other time. Then again, maybe the value of time will become the core to future Pentagon policy. Maybe?
Posted by: laguerre | Oct 26 2023 14:04 utc | 8
You asked about these moves being made by the U.S. military – “80 heavy lift aircraft from the US flew into the Middle East yesterday carrying unknown weaponry and/or troops.”
I’m going to go out on a big ass limb here to try and give a possible answer to this question.
Over here in the good ole USA, Americans have been held captive by an extremely intense ‘above our heads’ information war. I know some here will disagree but honestly, I don’t really care. Not b/c others opinions don’t matter, b/c they do, normally, but there has been nothing normal inside the US and its policy decisions, honestly, since 2016 (yes – one could certainly go back further in time). At least as it relates to DC and the Pentagon; most especially the Pentagon.
The old days of reading maneuvers and counter moves to get a sense of what is happening, especially in foreign policy/national security, is rendered useless these days due to the amount of fog we’re living thru – there’s a ton of it – everywhere.
Folks on the outside have greater clarity than the average American does. Applying the normal ‘connect the dots’ to any Pentagon effort is futile simply because we’re not living in anything remotely close to normal.
If you look back at Ukraine’s response to Russia’s SMO you will quickly see “the US military hand” that certainly empowered Ukrainian troops on the ground to fight and the congressional swamp throwing billions into a black hole, but you will also clearly see a ‘hands off of Russian territory.’ Yes, F-16s were promised with the US military knowing full well the training, hell, learning to speak English, will take a lot of time. Ditto with other military hardware, long-range to be more precise, that could penetrate Russia’s territory and civilian population. And if I read correctly on one of these threads recently, Russia has recently employed weaponry that is taking out Ukraine’s Su’s and drones at an alarming rate.
All of the above is my way of saying “Time” as in “buying Time” has become a priority in Pentagon policy. I have my educated guesses as to why but will keep them to myself.
Question. Have you ever seen a US military backed War that forbade our allies from attacking their foes at home? Seriously. Have you? Why would the Pentagon arm Ukrainians to fight Russians IN Ukraine, but not provide weaponry to attack Russians in Russia? It doesn’t make any sense, does it? Who knew missiles, tanks, drones were to stop at borders. But that’s in essence what the Pentagon’s policy has been in Ukraine. There are only a few reasons for such logic. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with a ‘rules based order’ nor the neocons running State.
So now we have the US engaging in the Middle East with land, sea and air military assets being moved to strategic locations throughout – “80 heavy lift aircraft from the US flew into the Middle East yesterday carrying unknown weaponry and/or troops.” Trust, we will see more such pronouncements in the days ahead. Are they true? Or just for show? Or do these announcements of these massive shipments achieve other military/policy goals.
I can think of one – Israel has been forced by the US to pause the ground invasion into Gaza until these assets are in place.
The world is watching the US military position its assets literally engulfing pretty much the entire Middle East. Intimidation? Possibly. My educated guess is twofold – whomever is leading the Pentagon/US military, this operation, which I have my guesses, but whomever it is literally understands the meaning of two very important concepts as they pertain to conflict the value of “time” and the projection of “power”.
Time = moving these assets into place, holding the IDF at bay, allowing for factual information to surface about Oct 7, allowing for allies and foes alike to ‘breath’, allowing for Israeli’s themselves to come to grips with what is happening internally, providing space for quiet diplomatic talks, providing space for allies and foes alike to align or not and so much more.
Power = Full US military might to possibly be used to a) contain the war, b) flex its muscles – intimidation/fear – get inside decision-makers heads, c) force the players to the table to once and for all (my hopeful and very naïve wish) resolve this miserable conflict by forcing ALL PARTIES to the table and/or ????
In this information war we are living thru here in the US it’s important to know about and then learn to read the shadows as in the moves being made ever so subtly and knowing who to listen to/read/follow. If, and it’s a big IF, but if as many are saying Biden is not the leader but rather Obama, could you see Obama using “Time” in this manner? Nope. The word “strategic” is nowhere to be found on Obama’s resume. There seems to be another hand at play and it’s one that understands the value of “Time” and knows fully how to project “Power.”
I’m confident this isn’t the answer you were looking for but in my understanding of all of this big fat mess it’s the only ideas that make a lick of sense to me. No one wants war; especially against such a powerless people and no one wants genocide EVER. So, the question becomes how does one slow down Nuttyahoo’s train wreck. For heavens sakes even Trump outed the guy a week or so ago.
You see in Ukraine that “hand” made sure NATOs response stopped at the Russian border, that is unless Russia did something to cause a re-think of said policy, and it’s that same hand who is buying time – at least temporarily by announcing “80 heavy lift aircraft from the US flew into the Middle East yesterday carrying unknown weaponry and/or troops” – while also flexing US military muscle for all the world to see.
I can’t imagine how much “Time” it’s going to take to deliver, unload, position, get crews into place and so much more for these assets to be ready to roll as well as more that I’m sure are on the way…and then there’s the training…
Know, laguerre, I could never say this at any other time. Then again, maybe the value of time will become the core to future Pentagon policy. Maybe?
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:00 utc | 97
When the inevitable happens and push comes to shove – that is, when colonialism turns inward because there is no where else left to go – will you then also remember your creed and not resist when you are suffokated ever so slowly?
Posted by: kspr | Oct 26 2023 17:22 utc | 215
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:00 utc | 97
When the inevitable happens and push comes to shove – that is, when colonialism turns inward because there is no where else left to go – will you then also remember your creed and not resist when you are suffokated ever so slowly?
Posted by: kspr | Oct 26 2023 17:22 utc | 216
Is this yet another consequence of AUMF?
Posted by: john brewster | Oct 26 2023 14:50 utc |
——————————————————————-
The Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) (Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 107–40 (text) (PDF), 115 Stat. 224) is a joint resolution of the United States Congress which became law on September 18, 2001, authorizing the use of the United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attack on 9/11/01.
Posted by: Ed | Oct 26 2023 17:27 utc | 217
Is this yet another consequence of AUMF?
Posted by: john brewster | Oct 26 2023 14:50 utc |
——————————————————————-
The Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) (Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 107–40 (text) (PDF), 115 Stat. 224) is a joint resolution of the United States Congress which became law on September 18, 2001, authorizing the use of the United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attack on 9/11/01.
Posted by: Ed | Oct 26 2023 17:27 utc | 218
I generally try not to comment on this conflict. I find it raises temperatures and personally I see no good actors in this probably unsolveable conflict.
I have to say though that (despite what most would classify as terrorist actions) Hamas a played a blinder here.
Israel is looking weaker and possibly more isolated that at any time in recent history. The aspirations of the Palestinians have been ratched up on the world stage of public opinion, and no one with a ounce of humanity cannot see the humanitarian crisis caused by what is clearly Israeli war crimes – no matter whatever justifications are put forward. The Muslim world is pretty well united behind the Gazan populace. Muslim demonstrations in the west are spreading. Turkey appears to being peeled further away from the West. Threats of war against Iran are being counterbalanced by Saudi and Gulf States’ diplomacy re keeping Hormuz open, and Hezbollah action from Lebanon. US bases in Syria and elsewhere are now under threat. Israel appears to be able to bomb but is unwilling to send in ground troops. Its allies have been shown up for their hypocrisy. The west has been shown to be out of money, will and arms. Its now pro-war “left” is split.
Israel now appears in a military, political and diplomatic quagmire. Same with NATO and in particular the USA. No good way out here.
No wonder the neo-cons think Putin is behind it all.
Posted by: marcjf | Oct 26 2023 17:29 utc | 219
I generally try not to comment on this conflict. I find it raises temperatures and personally I see no good actors in this probably unsolveable conflict.
I have to say though that (despite what most would classify as terrorist actions) Hamas a played a blinder here.
Israel is looking weaker and possibly more isolated that at any time in recent history. The aspirations of the Palestinians have been ratched up on the world stage of public opinion, and no one with a ounce of humanity cannot see the humanitarian crisis caused by what is clearly Israeli war crimes – no matter whatever justifications are put forward. The Muslim world is pretty well united behind the Gazan populace. Muslim demonstrations in the west are spreading. Turkey appears to being peeled further away from the West. Threats of war against Iran are being counterbalanced by Saudi and Gulf States’ diplomacy re keeping Hormuz open, and Hezbollah action from Lebanon. US bases in Syria and elsewhere are now under threat. Israel appears to be able to bomb but is unwilling to send in ground troops. Its allies have been shown up for their hypocrisy. The west has been shown to be out of money, will and arms. Its now pro-war “left” is split.
Israel now appears in a military, political and diplomatic quagmire. Same with NATO and in particular the USA. No good way out here.
No wonder the neo-cons think Putin is behind it all.
Posted by: marcjf | Oct 26 2023 17:29 utc | 220
Bevin 106 – I agree with almost all your points. The “intent” part is very difficult to judge, however. In the final analysis, the facts of the affair, which was after all initiated by Hamas in this round, need to be what we judge the action by. And since civilians were targeted (at least for hostages if not initially for killing), then one may call it some version of terrorism, for what that’s worth.
It would have been interesting if hostages had not been taken and the only civilians killed had indeed been in crossfire (as is yet to be established) … what an incredible victory it would have been for Hamas to bust out like that …
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:34 utc | 223
Bevin 106 – I agree with almost all your points. The “intent” part is very difficult to judge, however. In the final analysis, the facts of the affair, which was after all initiated by Hamas in this round, need to be what we judge the action by. And since civilians were targeted (at least for hostages if not initially for killing), then one may call it some version of terrorism, for what that’s worth.
It would have been interesting if hostages had not been taken and the only civilians killed had indeed been in crossfire (as is yet to be established) … what an incredible victory it would have been for Hamas to bust out like that …
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:34 utc | 224
Terrorism is a stupid label that can apply to anything anywhere.
Posted by: Viktor | Oct 26 2023 17:34 utc | 225
Terrorism is a stupid label that can apply to anything anywhere.
Posted by: Viktor | Oct 26 2023 17:34 utc | 226
Just Another 9/11 44 Israeli intel informed Bibi, he wanted his Pearl Harbor moment, but standing down is as more likely than being the perps
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/24/amos-yaldin-israeli-military-intelligence-netanyahu-qa-00123099
Posted by: scottindallas | Oct 26 2023 17:38 utc | 227
Just Another 9/11 44 Israeli intel informed Bibi, he wanted his Pearl Harbor moment, but standing down is as more likely than being the perps
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/24/amos-yaldin-israeli-military-intelligence-netanyahu-qa-00123099
Posted by: scottindallas | Oct 26 2023 17:38 utc | 228
This article offers a brief summary of how many of the Israelis killed on Oct 7 were civilians (about half), and addresses the possibility that many of the killed Israelis died as a result of crossfire or because their homes were shelled by IDF, while they were still in them. It seems possible that many Israeli civilians were actively sacrificed by IDF because Hamas could not be allowed to dictate terms, even if it meant sacrificing Israeli hostages, at times, as a result. https://new.thecradle.co/articles/what-really-happened-on-7th-october
Posted by: Ludo | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 229
This article offers a brief summary of how many of the Israelis killed on Oct 7 were civilians (about half), and addresses the possibility that many of the killed Israelis died as a result of crossfire or because their homes were shelled by IDF, while they were still in them. It seems possible that many Israeli civilians were actively sacrificed by IDF because Hamas could not be allowed to dictate terms, even if it meant sacrificing Israeli hostages, at times, as a result. https://new.thecradle.co/articles/what-really-happened-on-7th-october
Posted by: Ludo | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 230
1. All systems must be judged on results. Legalise, lofty declarations, science and pseudo science, never hold a candle to real results. Results are all that matter, and for Palestinians, 75+ years of “international law” has gotten them kicked out of their homes and murdered, with the creiminals no just running free, but still in control.
2. When any group of people find that the system is totally stacked against them, and provably so, they have the inherent right to reject that system.
3. It is not reasonable to pretend there is any equivalence between Palestinian civilians and adult Israeli civilians., It’s not just that these Jews are setters who got everything by stealing it from the original inhabitants. More to the point, nearly all the Israeli Jews support the Israeli government in its longstanding genocide.
4. It follows from the first three points that Palestinians have the fight to kill all the adult Israeli civilians they need to, in trying to end the genocide and to get back their homeland.
5. It’s shameful hypocrisy for anyone to try to hold the Palestinians to the standards of international law when no one has respected international law and refuse to stop Israeli violation of those laws. Condemnation of anything> Palestinian do to Israeli adults amounts to support for Israeli genocide.
6. The above also holds true for the nations which have been destroyed by the mostly Jewish neocons. Not just Muslim nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen, but also Ukraine. International law is toothless – and everyone knows it. So stop the hypocrisy.
7. The last 120 years of impotent international laws and fraudulent organizations like the UN, will be replaced eventually, because the world needs peace and an enduring peace must be based on justice.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 231
1. All systems must be judged on results. Legalise, lofty declarations, science and pseudo science, never hold a candle to real results. Results are all that matter, and for Palestinians, 75+ years of “international law” has gotten them kicked out of their homes and murdered, with the creiminals no just running free, but still in control.
2. When any group of people find that the system is totally stacked against them, and provably so, they have the inherent right to reject that system.
3. It is not reasonable to pretend there is any equivalence between Palestinian civilians and adult Israeli civilians., It’s not just that these Jews are setters who got everything by stealing it from the original inhabitants. More to the point, nearly all the Israeli Jews support the Israeli government in its longstanding genocide.
4. It follows from the first three points that Palestinians have the fight to kill all the adult Israeli civilians they need to, in trying to end the genocide and to get back their homeland.
5. It’s shameful hypocrisy for anyone to try to hold the Palestinians to the standards of international law when no one has respected international law and refuse to stop Israeli violation of those laws. Condemnation of anything> Palestinian do to Israeli adults amounts to support for Israeli genocide.
6. The above also holds true for the nations which have been destroyed by the mostly Jewish neocons. Not just Muslim nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen, but also Ukraine. International law is toothless – and everyone knows it. So stop the hypocrisy.
7. The last 120 years of impotent international laws and fraudulent organizations like the UN, will be replaced eventually, because the world needs peace and an enduring peace must be based on justice.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 232
Ed@ 109
Are you agreeing with John Brewster but pointing out that the AUMF is being misused, again? That would be my reading of the matter. And is probably his.
Caliman@112
We seem to be close to agreeing, which is as good a place as any to drop the subject.
It seems to me to boil down to the narrative but, without idealising Hamas, they seem to have acted in a logical matter. The weak cannot afford the indulgence of being vicious.
Posted by: bevin | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 233
Ed@ 109
Are you agreeing with John Brewster but pointing out that the AUMF is being misused, again? That would be my reading of the matter. And is probably his.
Caliman@112
We seem to be close to agreeing, which is as good a place as any to drop the subject.
It seems to me to boil down to the narrative but, without idealising Hamas, they seem to have acted in a logical matter. The weak cannot afford the indulgence of being vicious.
Posted by: bevin | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 234
Caliman@73….all Occupiers currently living rent free in Palestine are armed…..makes drive by shootings of Palestinian funerals easier.
You defend the indefensible…..know them by their deeds.
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 235
Caliman@73….all Occupiers currently living rent free in Palestine are armed…..makes drive by shootings of Palestinian funerals easier.
You defend the indefensible…..know them by their deeds.
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 236
US carrier fleet was the big deal in town 30 years ago. They’re all rust buckets now and crewed by every social fuck up possible.
The real reason the US is in the Eastern Mediterranean is to protect the Lebanese hashish industry. Without their hashish, the US navy would have no crews.
This is a last throw of the dice for US. The world isn’t afraid of the carrier fleet anymore, we’ve seen enough discovery documentaries to know that they’re more like cruise ships than lethal war vessels.
Posted by: Eoin Clancy | Oct 26 2023 17:53 utc | 237
US carrier fleet was the big deal in town 30 years ago. They’re all rust buckets now and crewed by every social fuck up possible.
The real reason the US is in the Eastern Mediterranean is to protect the Lebanese hashish industry. Without their hashish, the US navy would have no crews.
This is a last throw of the dice for US. The world isn’t afraid of the carrier fleet anymore, we’ve seen enough discovery documentaries to know that they’re more like cruise ships than lethal war vessels.
Posted by: Eoin Clancy | Oct 26 2023 17:53 utc | 238
Posted by: h | Oct 26 2023 17:18 utc | 107
Your Time notion is interesting, thank you.
I think also what is going on is a classic Great Game chess match – perhaps more like Go – with the West’s ‘Maritime Powers’ creating an Arc of Chaos along the peripheries of the multipolarist BRICS+ ‘World Island’.
First Ukraine – now petering out, though not for the grunts on the ground – and now Israel inflaming Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Egypt and more thereby making a stable ME impossible to integrate peacefully with the BRI of the BRICS+ group. Meanwhile also Kazakhstan is flaring up in Central Eurasia and one never knows what might unfold in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Then perhaps soon more disturbances in the South China Sea arena with Taiwan a possible flash point. All of which serves to delay and frustrate Eurasia’s ‘peaceful rise’ with the ongoing Belt and Road initiative.
This is perhaps another way of viewing the ‘playing for Time’ angle, IMO.
(Though I continue to think this is an extended negotiation between the extant BIS-run world financial system and the multipolarists. They want a seat at the table and if they don’t get one to their liking they are showing they have the ability to spoil the Multipolarist’s party.)
Posted by: h | Oct 26 2023 17:18 utc | 107
Your Time notion is interesting, thank you.
I think also what is going on is a classic Great Game chess match – perhaps more like Go – with the West’s ‘Maritime Powers’ creating an Arc of Chaos along the peripheries of the multipolarist BRICS+ ‘World Island’.
First Ukraine – now petering out, though not for the grunts on the ground – and now Israel inflaming Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Egypt and more thereby making a stable ME impossible to integrate peacefully with the BRI of the BRICS+ group. Meanwhile also Kazakhstan is flaring up in Central Eurasia and one never knows what might unfold in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Then perhaps soon more disturbances in the South China Sea arena with Taiwan a possible flash point. All of which serves to delay and frustrate Eurasia’s ‘peaceful rise’ with the ongoing Belt and Road initiative.
This is perhaps another way of viewing the ‘playing for Time’ angle, IMO.
(Though I continue to think this is an extended negotiation between the extant BIS-run world financial system and the multipolarists. They want a seat at the table and if they don’t get one to their liking they are showing they have the ability to spoil the Multipolarist’s party.)
As an exaggerated example, a couple of nuclear bombs going off in Israel would likely end the occupation; but I’m sure you’d agree this would be an incredibly immoral act of genocidal terror.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:00 utc | 97
—————————————————————
Let’s try another not so exaggerated example that is not so far fetch that it is silly.
So, you have Jews in a horrible work concentration camp run by German Nazi SS, and mostly guarded by Ukrainian Nazis. People are worked to death and starved in the process. If you are too young or too old to work, you are disposed of quickly.
Many German officers have their families living in a village just outside of the Camp, let’s say less than a mile or two.
A volunteer group of men and women inmates escape from the camp at night armed with only knives and a couple of pistols and a few bullets which they obtained through barter from the Ukrainian Guards.
They go to the village and take the family members of the Gestapo Commanders family, alone with other officers’ families, and announce that they will commence killing two family members every hour until the 800 inmates in the work camp are released and allowed to escape to the waiting resistance forces in the forest.
What do you say Caliman? Justice or crimes against humanity.
Posted by: Ed | Oct 26 2023 17:54 utc | 241
As an exaggerated example, a couple of nuclear bombs going off in Israel would likely end the occupation; but I’m sure you’d agree this would be an incredibly immoral act of genocidal terror.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:00 utc | 97
—————————————————————
Let’s try another not so exaggerated example that is not so far fetch that it is silly.
So, you have Jews in a horrible work concentration camp run by German Nazi SS, and mostly guarded by Ukrainian Nazis. People are worked to death and starved in the process. If you are too young or too old to work, you are disposed of quickly.
Many German officers have their families living in a village just outside of the Camp, let’s say less than a mile or two.
A volunteer group of men and women inmates escape from the camp at night armed with only knives and a couple of pistols and a few bullets which they obtained through barter from the Ukrainian Guards.
They go to the village and take the family members of the Gestapo Commanders family, alone with other officers’ families, and announce that they will commence killing two family members every hour until the 800 inmates in the work camp are released and allowed to escape to the waiting resistance forces in the forest.
What do you say Caliman? Justice or crimes against humanity.
Posted by: Ed | Oct 26 2023 17:54 utc | 242
Posted by: JessDTruth | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 116
6. The above also holds true for the nations which have been destroyed by the mostly Jewish neocons. Not just Muslim nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen, but also Ukraine. International law is toothless – and everyone knows it. So stop the hypocrisy.
7. The last 120 years of impotent international laws and fraudulent organizations like the UN, will be replaced eventually, because the world needs peace and an enduring peace must be based on justice.
BINGO! Great post.
I would change #6 to:
6. The above also holds true for the nations which have been destroyed by the mostly Jewish neocons. Not just Muslim nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen, but also Ukraine, Europe and the U.S. International law is toothless – and everyone knows it. So stop the hypocrisy.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Oct 26 2023 17:42 utc | 116
6. The above also holds true for the nations which have been destroyed by the mostly Jewish neocons. Not just Muslim nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen, but also Ukraine. International law is toothless – and everyone knows it. So stop the hypocrisy.
7. The last 120 years of impotent international laws and fraudulent organizations like the UN, will be replaced eventually, because the world needs peace and an enduring peace must be based on justice.
BINGO! Great post.
I would change #6 to:
6. The above also holds true for the nations which have been destroyed by the mostly Jewish neocons. Not just Muslim nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen, but also Ukraine, Europe and the U.S. International law is toothless – and everyone knows it. So stop the hypocrisy.
I just like calling things as they are.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:17 utc | 105
##############
Then you should have no difficulties calling the Zionist policies racist and immoral, right?
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 26 2023 17:58 utc | 245
I just like calling things as they are.
Posted by: Caliman | Oct 26 2023 17:17 utc | 105
##############
Then you should have no difficulties calling the Zionist policies racist and immoral, right?
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 26 2023 17:58 utc | 246
Regarding yesterday’s MEE report that Israel and the US plan to flood tunnels with nerve gas. This has been officially denied by Israel.
If Claud Cockburn was correct this means that it can be assumed to be true.
Middle East Eye on Biden’s scepticism re casualties in Gaza.
“The Palestinian health ministry on Thursday released the names of 7,028 people killed by Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip, a day after US President Joe Biden questioned the death toll since the war began on 7 October.
“Biden told reporters at the White House that he has “no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth” about the number of people killed by Israel so far. “I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war,” he added.
“In response, the health ministry published a 210-page report, detailing the names, ages, genders, and ID numbers of every person killed in the enclave.
“Health ministry spokesperson Ashraf al-Qudra said the US administration was “devoid of human standards, morals and basic human rights values” for “shamelessly” questioning the validity of the death toll…”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-death-toll-names-killed-released-biden-questions
Posted by: bevin | Oct 26 2023 17:59 utc | 247
Regarding yesterday’s MEE report that Israel and the US plan to flood tunnels with nerve gas. This has been officially denied by Israel.
If Claud Cockburn was correct this means that it can be assumed to be true.
Middle East Eye on Biden’s scepticism re casualties in Gaza.
“The Palestinian health ministry on Thursday released the names of 7,028 people killed by Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip, a day after US President Joe Biden questioned the death toll since the war began on 7 October.
“Biden told reporters at the White House that he has “no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth” about the number of people killed by Israel so far. “I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war,” he added.
“In response, the health ministry published a 210-page report, detailing the names, ages, genders, and ID numbers of every person killed in the enclave.
“Health ministry spokesperson Ashraf al-Qudra said the US administration was “devoid of human standards, morals and basic human rights values” for “shamelessly” questioning the validity of the death toll…”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-death-toll-names-killed-released-biden-questions
Posted by: bevin | Oct 26 2023 17:59 utc | 248
Posted by: h | Oct 26 2023 17:18 utc | 107
Delay, Delay, delay, excuse after excuse. Reason for all the BS is. Israel is simply not prepared to fight a total urban warfare battle. It does not have the arms or training.
Urban warfare is difficult, bloody, takes a long time and dead solders to achieve goals.
Look at the battle of Iraq’s second largest city, Mosul. The US backed Iraq and Kurdish troops with mostly air power. It took around 9 months to clear the city. The insurgent Terrorists in Mosul were nowhere near as dug in as Hamas is in Gaza.
Russia will not go into Avdiivka because of the high casualties it will suffer. Easier to starve them out like they did in Mariupol. Russia can get away with siege tactics because only enemy solders are involved, No civilians.
Problem with Gaza is. Israel will have a hard time starving Gaza. World opinion is fast turning against Israel. Demands to deliver humanitarian relief to the starving children will have to be met or Israel will become a worse pariha than it already is
It is a fine mess Israel and the US got themselves into. No planning, No foresight, No intelligence involved. Who thought this shit show up? NyetnYahoo?
Posted by: Golddigger | Oct 26 2023 18:05 utc | 249
Posted by: h | Oct 26 2023 17:18 utc | 107
Delay, Delay, delay, excuse after excuse. Reason for all the BS is. Israel is simply not prepared to fight a total urban warfare battle. It does not have the arms or training.
Urban warfare is difficult, bloody, takes a long time and dead solders to achieve goals.
Look at the battle of Iraq’s second largest city, Mosul. The US backed Iraq and Kurdish troops with mostly air power. It took around 9 months to clear the city. The insurgent Terrorists in Mosul were nowhere near as dug in as Hamas is in Gaza.
Russia will not go into Avdiivka because of the high casualties it will suffer. Easier to starve them out like they did in Mariupol. Russia can get away with siege tactics because only enemy solders are involved, No civilians.
Problem with Gaza is. Israel will have a hard time starving Gaza. World opinion is fast turning against Israel. Demands to deliver humanitarian relief to the starving children will have to be met or Israel will become a worse pariha than it already is
It is a fine mess Israel and the US got themselves into. No planning, No foresight, No intelligence involved. Who thought this shit show up? NyetnYahoo?
Posted by: Golddigger | Oct 26 2023 18:05 utc | 250
I just want to remind you that there is no general internationally accepted definition of terrorism, for instance codified in international law, all attempts have failed miserably, so therefore all prevailing definitions are expressions of a state’s or group of states’ hegemonic ambitions to define what is terrorism and what is not.
Posted by: On the roof | Oct 26 2023 18:07 utc | 251
I just want to remind you that there is no general internationally accepted definition of terrorism, for instance codified in international law, all attempts have failed miserably, so therefore all prevailing definitions are expressions of a state’s or group of states’ hegemonic ambitions to define what is terrorism and what is not.
Posted by: On the roof | Oct 26 2023 18:07 utc | 252