Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 12, 2023
Clowns Of Brussels

It is time China started taking Europe more seriously, says EU foreign policy chief Josep BorrellSCMP – Oct 12, 2023

“My first objective is to reaffirm to my Chinese interlocutors that Europe takes China seriously and has no hidden agenda aiming at derailing its rise.

“At the same time, we expect from China to take us more seriously and stop looking at us through the lens of its relations with others. Our assessment and conduct is driven by our own interests,” Borrell said.

His comments reflect a frustration in Europe that Beijing does not accept that the union has come to its own conclusions on China as relations worsen.

China’s state media often portrays the EU as a “puppet” of the US, but Borrell insisted that the “war in Ukraine has transformed us … from the position of an economic power to a geopolitical one, taking its strategic responsibilities very seriously”.

EU to investigate Chinese steel and aluminium sectors, with tariffs looming, in deal with USSCMP – Oct 12, 2023

The European Union is set to investigate overcapacity in China’s steel sector, a move that could see a tariff of 25 per cent imposed on imports from the world’s second largest economy.

Aluminium is also in the EU cross hairs, with officials poised to commit to a 10 per cent tariff on shipments from China and other non-market economies.

The probe is part of a political agreement with the United States, set to be announced during a bilateral summit in Washington next week, that would also end some existing US tariffs on EU steel and aluminium imports, according to EU sources familiar with the plan.

The plan is expected to be announced by US President Joe Biden, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and European Council President Charles Michel on October 20.

Comments

ooops my 49 is OT – sorry

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 16:23 utc | 101

ooops my 49 is OT – sorry

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 16:23 utc | 102

RE: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 16:05 utc | 45
I accept that possibility as well, since Stolenberg just announced today for next week, it maybe a ruse/feint to get Putin to react by running back to a Russian bunker instead of meeting Xi and carrying out BRI/National business of realignment.
In any case, the “US diplomacy” and “threats” are the same thing. I’m saying they’re crazy enough to turn a threat into a manifestation because they’re delusional about the response. This or any other actual “exercise” increases the likelihood of a miscalculation.
Pitiful.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 12 2023 16:24 utc | 103

RE: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 16:05 utc | 45
I accept that possibility as well, since Stolenberg just announced today for next week, it maybe a ruse/feint to get Putin to react by running back to a Russian bunker instead of meeting Xi and carrying out BRI/National business of realignment.
In any case, the “US diplomacy” and “threats” are the same thing. I’m saying they’re crazy enough to turn a threat into a manifestation because they’re delusional about the response. This or any other actual “exercise” increases the likelihood of a miscalculation.
Pitiful.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 12 2023 16:24 utc | 104

I just watched the Duran with Alistair Crooke, for anyone who is unsure what is going on I do recommend watching this to make an understanding on an ideoligistic level. Brilliant
https://rumble.com/v3okn3w-extremist-politics-in-israel-and-ukraine-alastair-crooke-alexander-mercouri.html

Posted by: Scot1and | Oct 12 2023 17:14 utc | 105

I just watched the Duran with Alistair Crooke, for anyone who is unsure what is going on I do recommend watching this to make an understanding on an ideoligistic level. Brilliant
https://rumble.com/v3okn3w-extremist-politics-in-israel-and-ukraine-alastair-crooke-alexander-mercouri.html

Posted by: Scot1and | Oct 12 2023 17:14 utc | 106

When Emmanuel Macron, President of France, visited China recently he got full military honors upon arrival.
The EU woman with him got nothing.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 15:05 utc | 28
Let me help you interpret inscrutable diplomatic protocol and generally accepted political principles (GAPP) har
• France and China are sovereign nation-states, recognized by the UNGA as such. The European Union (EU) does not enjoy peer group status accorded by either the UNGA or the several sovereign signatories of the TEU (Treaty of the European Union or “Lisbon Treaty”). Ursula van der Leyen (vdL) is not a head of state in any case. VdL is the president, or “executive,” of the European Commission (EC) a/k/a College of Commissioners which is a agency of the European Council (EUCO) heads of state established by the first iteration of the Common Market (“Maastricht Treaty”). Legal authorities a/k/a mandates a/k/a “competences” vested by the treaty in offices of the EC, European Parliament (EP), and EUCO a/k/a Council of the European Union are limited and severable. Hold that thought.
• At the invitation of Xi Jinping, Macron accepted for France a state visit, April 5-7, 2023—one month after Xi’s state visit to the RF. Macron’s arrival recieved full honors and benefit of doubt. As is the custom, Macron arrived with MFA functionaries by one carrier and entourage of industry captains, determined to close “investment” deals with select Chinese public- and private-sector companies.
vdL arrived by another plane, under separate cover, determined to “bring Russia to its senses” by thrashing China’s Position on Ukraine, advance a recently unveiled “de-risk, not de-couple” foreign policy agenda (video), because J. Borrell (Commission EVP of External Affairs) was uhhh suddenly striken by SARS-Co-V2, and also exercise de facto instruments of EU policy

It’s a message that Commission President Ursula von der Leyen will deliver when she visits China next week, together with French President Emmanuel Macron.
[…]
Namechecking [sic] this week’s political agreement to create a so-called anti-coercion instrument in a speech in Brussels on Thursday, von der Leyen said: “We now need the unity at EU level for a bolder and faster use of those instruments when they are required and a more assertive approach to enforcement. The new rules will empower the Commission to investigate whether coercion has happened and to propose countermeasures—handing the executive greater [exclusive] competence in the making of foreign policy, an area where EU countries have traditionally called the shots.

A power grab, in short, amid throes of interstate “constitutional convention” set in motion by EUCO. vdL arrived with all that baggage and no gifts. Xi agreed to a tri-lateral conference on the final day of Macron’s beauty pageant but obviously did not assist in helping unpack her weighty mission. If that is the “nothing” to which you allude, yes. Xi did not invited to walk in the gardens.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 17:30 utc | 107

When Emmanuel Macron, President of France, visited China recently he got full military honors upon arrival.
The EU woman with him got nothing.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 15:05 utc | 28
Let me help you interpret inscrutable diplomatic protocol and generally accepted political principles (GAPP) har
• France and China are sovereign nation-states, recognized by the UNGA as such. The European Union (EU) does not enjoy peer group status accorded by either the UNGA or the several sovereign signatories of the TEU (Treaty of the European Union or “Lisbon Treaty”). Ursula van der Leyen (vdL) is not a head of state in any case. VdL is the president, or “executive,” of the European Commission (EC) a/k/a College of Commissioners which is a agency of the European Council (EUCO) heads of state established by the first iteration of the Common Market (“Maastricht Treaty”). Legal authorities a/k/a mandates a/k/a “competences” vested by the treaty in offices of the EC, European Parliament (EP), and EUCO a/k/a Council of the European Union are limited and severable. Hold that thought.
• At the invitation of Xi Jinping, Macron accepted for France a state visit, April 5-7, 2023—one month after Xi’s state visit to the RF. Macron’s arrival recieved full honors and benefit of doubt. As is the custom, Macron arrived with MFA functionaries by one carrier and entourage of industry captains, determined to close “investment” deals with select Chinese public- and private-sector companies.
vdL arrived by another plane, under separate cover, determined to “bring Russia to its senses” by thrashing China’s Position on Ukraine, advance a recently unveiled “de-risk, not de-couple” foreign policy agenda (video), because J. Borrell (Commission EVP of External Affairs) was uhhh suddenly striken by SARS-Co-V2, and also exercise de facto instruments of EU policy

It’s a message that Commission President Ursula von der Leyen will deliver when she visits China next week, together with French President Emmanuel Macron.
[…]
Namechecking [sic] this week’s political agreement to create a so-called anti-coercion instrument in a speech in Brussels on Thursday, von der Leyen said: “We now need the unity at EU level for a bolder and faster use of those instruments when they are required and a more assertive approach to enforcement. The new rules will empower the Commission to investigate whether coercion has happened and to propose countermeasures—handing the executive greater [exclusive] competence in the making of foreign policy, an area where EU countries have traditionally called the shots.

A power grab, in short, amid throes of interstate “constitutional convention” set in motion by EUCO. vdL arrived with all that baggage and no gifts. Xi agreed to a tri-lateral conference on the final day of Macron’s beauty pageant but obviously did not assist in helping unpack her weighty mission. If that is the “nothing” to which you allude, yes. Xi did not invited to walk in the gardens.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 17:30 utc | 108

How did Borrell get this job?
Can anyone help?

Posted by: jpc | Oct 12 2023 17:32 utc | 109

How did Borrell get this job?
Can anyone help?

Posted by: jpc | Oct 12 2023 17:32 utc | 110

@ sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 17:30 utc | 54
With a lot of words you simply backed my point that China respects nations but not the EU bloc, as Borrell would like.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 18:03 utc | 111

@ sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 17:30 utc | 54
With a lot of words you simply backed my point that China respects nations but not the EU bloc, as Borrell would like.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 18:03 utc | 112

I think the working people of Europe have a much clearer idea of the situation.
I think deep down on some level they are beginning to understand this.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 12 2023 15:04 utc | 27
What is a good laugh!

Posted by: SailorsWife | Oct 12 2023 18:14 utc | 113

I think the working people of Europe have a much clearer idea of the situation.
I think deep down on some level they are beginning to understand this.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 12 2023 15:04 utc | 27
What is a good laugh!

Posted by: SailorsWife | Oct 12 2023 18:14 utc | 114

US 10 year treasury rate is up 15bps, at 4.72%, last seen in 2006. Now we just have a “small” amount of additional debt. No hard data on this but most likely the government is issuing now more long term debt and less short term debt as it is “cheaper” and tightening the gap between short and long term.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 12 2023 18:18 utc | 115

US 10 year treasury rate is up 15bps, at 4.72%, last seen in 2006. Now we just have a “small” amount of additional debt. No hard data on this but most likely the government is issuing now more long term debt and less short term debt as it is “cheaper” and tightening the gap between short and long term.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 12 2023 18:18 utc | 116

Posted by: Another 9/11 | Oct 12 2023 15:02 utc | 26
Something not quite right here.
Yes, been wondering along similar lines. Really, Hamas doesn’t have any air defense of any sort???
Not that Israel does… Simplicius today writes how Iron Dome might be only a big fraud… rocket goes up, goes boom, interception claimed, media quacks loudly.
And 2 US carrier groups? How manly! What are they going to do, take turns bombing defenseless Palestinians? Keels are made to be broken.
Meanwhile, in the EU, the Garden, censorship moving rapidly. Displaying a palestinian flag now a criminal offence. How long for moon?

Posted by: oracle | Oct 12 2023 18:24 utc | 117

Posted by: Another 9/11 | Oct 12 2023 15:02 utc | 26
Something not quite right here.
Yes, been wondering along similar lines. Really, Hamas doesn’t have any air defense of any sort???
Not that Israel does… Simplicius today writes how Iron Dome might be only a big fraud… rocket goes up, goes boom, interception claimed, media quacks loudly.
And 2 US carrier groups? How manly! What are they going to do, take turns bombing defenseless Palestinians? Keels are made to be broken.
Meanwhile, in the EU, the Garden, censorship moving rapidly. Displaying a palestinian flag now a criminal offence. How long for moon?

Posted by: oracle | Oct 12 2023 18:24 utc | 118

@aheno
I do agree. I am now working class (after 15 years in an academic job), none of them gives a shit about the mainstream media, most of them have the experience of getting screwed by the government, all of them are anti-woke, most of them feel something is going on and have their theories.
Problem though is, that most of them are immigrants of 1. 2. Or 3. Generations. They want to have a decent life and dont wanna fight the fight as long as they see a chance to earn a living, have s family etc.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 12 2023 18:35 utc | 119

@aheno
I do agree. I am now working class (after 15 years in an academic job), none of them gives a shit about the mainstream media, most of them have the experience of getting screwed by the government, all of them are anti-woke, most of them feel something is going on and have their theories.
Problem though is, that most of them are immigrants of 1. 2. Or 3. Generations. They want to have a decent life and dont wanna fight the fight as long as they see a chance to earn a living, have s family etc.

Posted by: Orgel | Oct 12 2023 18:35 utc | 120

Lackey cries that he isn’t taken seriously. This begs the question of why should anyone take a bunch of lackeys and bootlickers seriously?

Posted by: Feral Finster | Oct 12 2023 18:45 utc | 121

Lackey cries that he isn’t taken seriously. This begs the question of why should anyone take a bunch of lackeys and bootlickers seriously?

Posted by: Feral Finster | Oct 12 2023 18:45 utc | 122

Another 9/11 | Oct 12 2023 15:02 utc | 26
Your list of facts, your theory makes a lot of sense. Israel, with its famous Mossad secret service, saw the attack coming and decided to “let it happen on purpose” (LIHOP) so that it could serve as an excuse for the final act of extermination they were planning. To assume the opposite, that they were taken by surprise, looks implausible given Israel’s expertise and 70 years of experience.
So they acted like by the US textbook on intervention: where it is an essential ingredient of war to keep the moral high ground and have the enemy strike first – while they are the party that is really interested in war. So they perform a LIHOP like in 9/11, and in Pearl Harbour, and now the Israelis in Gaza, if the enemy is dumb enough to strike first, or has, for whatever reason, no other option.
Peter Lavelle of RT and guests have also expressed this conjecture.

Posted by: grunzt | Oct 12 2023 19:18 utc | 123

Another 9/11 | Oct 12 2023 15:02 utc | 26
Your list of facts, your theory makes a lot of sense. Israel, with its famous Mossad secret service, saw the attack coming and decided to “let it happen on purpose” (LIHOP) so that it could serve as an excuse for the final act of extermination they were planning. To assume the opposite, that they were taken by surprise, looks implausible given Israel’s expertise and 70 years of experience.
So they acted like by the US textbook on intervention: where it is an essential ingredient of war to keep the moral high ground and have the enemy strike first – while they are the party that is really interested in war. So they perform a LIHOP like in 9/11, and in Pearl Harbour, and now the Israelis in Gaza, if the enemy is dumb enough to strike first, or has, for whatever reason, no other option.
Peter Lavelle of RT and guests have also expressed this conjecture.

Posted by: grunzt | Oct 12 2023 19:18 utc | 124

Borrell is the Chauncey Gardiner of the EU but couldn’t hold a candle to Peter Sellers.
money quote from movie Being There

In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.

Sounds like Borrell, eh?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2023 19:25 utc | 125

Borrell is the Chauncey Gardiner of the EU but couldn’t hold a candle to Peter Sellers.
money quote from movie Being There

In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.

Sounds like Borrell, eh?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2023 19:25 utc | 126

I think the working people of Europe have a much clearer idea of the situation.
I think deep down on some level they are beginning to understand this.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 12 2023 15:04 utc | 27
What is a good laugh!
Posted by: SailorsWife | Oct 12 2023 18:14 utc | 57
Talk to your husband. If he depends on a wage he probably understands.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 12 2023 19:30 utc | 127

I think the working people of Europe have a much clearer idea of the situation.
I think deep down on some level they are beginning to understand this.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 12 2023 15:04 utc | 27
What is a good laugh!
Posted by: SailorsWife | Oct 12 2023 18:14 utc | 57
Talk to your husband. If he depends on a wage he probably understands.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 12 2023 19:30 utc | 128

Posted by: grunzt | Oct 12 2023 19:18 utc | 62
Except Israel’s enemy did not strike first.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 19:35 utc | 129

Posted by: grunzt | Oct 12 2023 19:18 utc | 62
Except Israel’s enemy did not strike first.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 19:35 utc | 130

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2023 19:25 utc | 63
sounds like a recurring nightmare shared by a whole lot of people.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 19:36 utc | 131

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2023 19:25 utc | 63
sounds like a recurring nightmare shared by a whole lot of people.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 12 2023 19:36 utc | 132

Why should the Chinese take Europe seriously when the EU doesn’t take Europeans seriously and mass-imports third-world despoilers to take their place. Are they upset that the Chinese leaders want a better China for the actual Chinese, rather than turning themselves into a DIE hellhole like the EU is becoming?

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | Oct 12 2023 19:45 utc | 133

Why should the Chinese take Europe seriously when the EU doesn’t take Europeans seriously and mass-imports third-world despoilers to take their place. Are they upset that the Chinese leaders want a better China for the actual Chinese, rather than turning themselves into a DIE hellhole like the EU is becoming?

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | Oct 12 2023 19:45 utc | 134

Basically no one wanted to even buy the poor quality steel produced in US antique blast furnaces. Pound for pound US steel even cost more, but it had to do with how it was produced, not subsidizes.
Posted by: ATM | Oct 12 2023 14:47 utc | 22
————————————————————-
A blast furnace cooks iron out of layers of coked coal and iron ore with some additives. There is a coke plant in andiivka Ukraine, for example.
The iron, when tapped, is delivered to a steel making furnace. The US pioneered oxygen lance production. The oxygen burns impurities, additives define the quality of the steel.
After that, continuous casting or ingots.
After that, off to the rolling mills to make plate, strip, or rod & bar.
I worked my way through college in a steel mill (burlap over socks and wooden shoes against the heat) and was a mgt trainee even, for a little while. It is a capital intensive business. Specialty steels, often using electric arc furnaces and scrap steel, make more money.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 12 2023 19:59 utc | 135

Basically no one wanted to even buy the poor quality steel produced in US antique blast furnaces. Pound for pound US steel even cost more, but it had to do with how it was produced, not subsidizes.
Posted by: ATM | Oct 12 2023 14:47 utc | 22
————————————————————-
A blast furnace cooks iron out of layers of coked coal and iron ore with some additives. There is a coke plant in andiivka Ukraine, for example.
The iron, when tapped, is delivered to a steel making furnace. The US pioneered oxygen lance production. The oxygen burns impurities, additives define the quality of the steel.
After that, continuous casting or ingots.
After that, off to the rolling mills to make plate, strip, or rod & bar.
I worked my way through college in a steel mill (burlap over socks and wooden shoes against the heat) and was a mgt trainee even, for a little while. It is a capital intensive business. Specialty steels, often using electric arc furnaces and scrap steel, make more money.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 12 2023 19:59 utc | 136

UE has no level to be a clown.

Posted by: alfeu* | Oct 12 2023 20:06 utc | 137

UE has no level to be a clown.

Posted by: alfeu* | Oct 12 2023 20:06 utc | 138

Borrell is the Chauncey Gardiner of the EU but couldn’t hold a candle to Peter Sellers.
money quote from movie Being There
“In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.”
Sounds like Borrell, eh?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2023 19:25 utc | 63
———————————————————-
Sounds like US VP Kamela Harris. She is famous for her word salads.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 12 2023 20:18 utc | 139

Borrell is the Chauncey Gardiner of the EU but couldn’t hold a candle to Peter Sellers.
money quote from movie Being There
“In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.”
Sounds like Borrell, eh?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2023 19:25 utc | 63
———————————————————-
Sounds like US VP Kamela Harris. She is famous for her word salads.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 12 2023 20:18 utc | 140

Maybe some great expert can explain to me how the leader of Hamas, this new Hitler, can live in luxury in Qatar, one of the US’s principal allies in the region? It’s as though the US or UK were both fighting against Nazism and hosting all the while Hitler in one of their closest regional allies. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/08/hamas-leader-ismail-haniyeh-behind-attack-on-israel/

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:20 utc | 141

Maybe some great expert can explain to me how the leader of Hamas, this new Hitler, can live in luxury in Qatar, one of the US’s principal allies in the region? It’s as though the US or UK were both fighting against Nazism and hosting all the while Hitler in one of their closest regional allies. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/08/hamas-leader-ismail-haniyeh-behind-attack-on-israel/

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:20 utc | 142

P.S. Why hasn’t the EU imposed severe sanctions on Qatar now, if not even before this, for hosting and protecting this new Hitler? The head of Hamas enjoys proxy protection from the US, protector of Qatar, but Russia is blamed for protecting, assisting, and abetting the head of Hamas instead.

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:23 utc | 143

P.S. Why hasn’t the EU imposed severe sanctions on Qatar now, if not even before this, for hosting and protecting this new Hitler? The head of Hamas enjoys proxy protection from the US, protector of Qatar, but Russia is blamed for protecting, assisting, and abetting the head of Hamas instead.

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:23 utc | 144

EU blew its future infrastructure funding on Ukraine. What’s it going to be using steel for anyway?

Posted by: Hankster | Oct 12 2023 20:32 utc | 145

EU blew its future infrastructure funding on Ukraine. What’s it going to be using steel for anyway?

Posted by: Hankster | Oct 12 2023 20:32 utc | 146

Maybe some great expert can explain to me how the leader of Hamas, this new Hitler, can live in luxury in Qatar, one of the US’s principal allies in the region?
Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:20 utc | 71
################
America has no allies. Only vassals.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 12 2023 20:37 utc | 147

Maybe some great expert can explain to me how the leader of Hamas, this new Hitler, can live in luxury in Qatar, one of the US’s principal allies in the region?
Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:20 utc | 71
################
America has no allies. Only vassals.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 12 2023 20:37 utc | 148

How did Borrell get this job?
Can anyone help?
Posted by: jpc | Oct 12 2023 17:32 utc | 55
################
I want to guess “on his knees”. The man is a bureaucrat. They are all drones.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 12 2023 20:43 utc | 149

How did Borrell get this job?
Can anyone help?
Posted by: jpc | Oct 12 2023 17:32 utc | 55
################
I want to guess “on his knees”. The man is a bureaucrat. They are all drones.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 12 2023 20:43 utc | 150

So “Jungle” Joseph Borrel who lives in the garden which is the EU, thinks China, which is a part of the jungle, should take us more seriously and stop looking at us through the lens of its relations with others. How to win friends and influence people. How much more racist can one get?

Posted by: Soupcon | Oct 12 2023 21:07 utc | 151

So “Jungle” Joseph Borrel who lives in the garden which is the EU, thinks China, which is a part of the jungle, should take us more seriously and stop looking at us through the lens of its relations with others. How to win friends and influence people. How much more racist can one get?

Posted by: Soupcon | Oct 12 2023 21:07 utc | 152

“seriously” and Joseph Borrell ? – Ha Ha Ha…

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Oct 12 2023 21:10 utc | 153

“seriously” and Joseph Borrell ? – Ha Ha Ha…

Posted by: Oliver Krug | Oct 12 2023 21:10 utc | 154

EU: /stamps foot “We’re series, China! We choose to do everything that favors the USA at our expense! You can’t tell me what to do!”
China: /eyeroll “Yeah huh, OK, sure.”
USA: “Good girl, Brussels. Keep it up and we’ll let you ride bitch one of these days.”
EU: “Oooh, honey, you know how I love bad boys & motorbikes! You’re so good to me!”
— Dramatic Reenactment

Posted by: titmouse | Oct 12 2023 21:32 utc | 155

EU: /stamps foot “We’re series, China! We choose to do everything that favors the USA at our expense! You can’t tell me what to do!”
China: /eyeroll “Yeah huh, OK, sure.”
USA: “Good girl, Brussels. Keep it up and we’ll let you ride bitch one of these days.”
EU: “Oooh, honey, you know how I love bad boys & motorbikes! You’re so good to me!”
— Dramatic Reenactment

Posted by: titmouse | Oct 12 2023 21:32 utc | 156

My understanding is that the Asian steel industry grew as a direct result of bad management in US companies and Asian investment new technologies. It has little to do with dumping or trade. Basically no one wanted to even buy the poor quality steel produced in US antique blast furnaces. Pound for pound US steel even cost more, but it had to do with how it was produced, not subsidizes.
Posted by: ATM | Oct 12 2023 14:47 utc | 22

One of the ways I worked my way through my BS at Purdue 64-68, was via work at steel mills in NW Indiana. I worked at Inland, Youngstown, US Steel Gary Works, and Bethlehem…
Virtually all the rolling mills were those my Grandfather’s generation worked at…
BECAUSE….
The companies knew the ore body was running out…
They kept things going with ore upgrading at the Mesabi mines into Taconite pellets…
The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald put downward pressure on the profitability of the ships which haul the raw materials… ore, limestone, & Coal to the mills, virtually all of which are at Great lakes ports…
Faced with declining resource, the US mid-west turned to electric arc furnaces to re-use steel from scrap… These were called mini-mills…
Regardless, the plan to mine the ore body on Baffin Island was “sabotaged” by the miserliness of the company which “saved $$” by not building the planned railway from the mines to an ice free port on the south coast, instead stockpiling ore for shipment during the short ice-free season on the north coast.
This meant that Australian ore was cheapest… So, the Chinese and ASEAN countries based their steel industries on it…
This left the North American Steel makers un-competitive…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 12 2023 21:54 utc | 157

My understanding is that the Asian steel industry grew as a direct result of bad management in US companies and Asian investment new technologies. It has little to do with dumping or trade. Basically no one wanted to even buy the poor quality steel produced in US antique blast furnaces. Pound for pound US steel even cost more, but it had to do with how it was produced, not subsidizes.
Posted by: ATM | Oct 12 2023 14:47 utc | 22

One of the ways I worked my way through my BS at Purdue 64-68, was via work at steel mills in NW Indiana. I worked at Inland, Youngstown, US Steel Gary Works, and Bethlehem…
Virtually all the rolling mills were those my Grandfather’s generation worked at…
BECAUSE….
The companies knew the ore body was running out…
They kept things going with ore upgrading at the Mesabi mines into Taconite pellets…
The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald put downward pressure on the profitability of the ships which haul the raw materials… ore, limestone, & Coal to the mills, virtually all of which are at Great lakes ports…
Faced with declining resource, the US mid-west turned to electric arc furnaces to re-use steel from scrap… These were called mini-mills…
Regardless, the plan to mine the ore body on Baffin Island was “sabotaged” by the miserliness of the company which “saved $$” by not building the planned railway from the mines to an ice free port on the south coast, instead stockpiling ore for shipment during the short ice-free season on the north coast.
This meant that Australian ore was cheapest… So, the Chinese and ASEAN countries based their steel industries on it…
This left the North American Steel makers un-competitive…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 12 2023 21:54 utc | 158

Titmouse 78 I initially read EU food stamps, then realised it wasn’t that wrong a vision, given the context. When going down hill why use the brake when there’s an accelerator

Posted by: Hankster | Oct 12 2023 22:28 utc | 159

Titmouse 78 I initially read EU food stamps, then realised it wasn’t that wrong a vision, given the context. When going down hill why use the brake when there’s an accelerator

Posted by: Hankster | Oct 12 2023 22:28 utc | 160

China’s mocking is intended to provoke a more independent stance, imv.
It’s not against the EU as such – Beijing also promotes a greater role for the African Union.
So no, this is not about ‘nation states’ vs. ‘blocs’. On the contrary: As a country of 1.5 billion, China prefers to deal with groups of countries, rather than individual (tiny) states.
I generally agree with Bob #17:
The EU does have its own economic policy, albeit it doesn’t stray too far from US/UK.
The reason for Europe’s ‘allegiance’ to US/UK isn’t as simple as some/ most tend to believe.
As someone wrote on another thread, “the rats are cornered”.
RoW has to make sure they don’t go (literally) nuclear, and EU plays its part in this ‘containment’.
That’s my interpretation at least.

Posted by: smuks | Oct 12 2023 23:04 utc | 161

China’s mocking is intended to provoke a more independent stance, imv.
It’s not against the EU as such – Beijing also promotes a greater role for the African Union.
So no, this is not about ‘nation states’ vs. ‘blocs’. On the contrary: As a country of 1.5 billion, China prefers to deal with groups of countries, rather than individual (tiny) states.
I generally agree with Bob #17:
The EU does have its own economic policy, albeit it doesn’t stray too far from US/UK.
The reason for Europe’s ‘allegiance’ to US/UK isn’t as simple as some/ most tend to believe.
As someone wrote on another thread, “the rats are cornered”.
RoW has to make sure they don’t go (literally) nuclear, and EU plays its part in this ‘containment’.
That’s my interpretation at least.

Posted by: smuks | Oct 12 2023 23:04 utc | 162

Whatever EU num-nuts proclaim, won’t make any difference
Read Andrei Martyanov’s latest post. EU is toast.

Posted by: OldFart | Oct 12 2023 23:18 utc | 163

Whatever EU num-nuts proclaim, won’t make any difference
Read Andrei Martyanov’s latest post. EU is toast.

Posted by: OldFart | Oct 12 2023 23:18 utc | 164

US can definitely see some short gain wins from the demise EU i.e. absorbing EU enterprises for itself.
Right now they have taken over LNG business, they seem to be taking over steel and aluminium business. I’d imagine they will also take over electric vehicle and battery business, US companies will own all the more important mines in Europe, they will take over the aircraft industry and drive Airbus out, they are gradually taking over the entire defense sector business.
EU gets left with only service economy and become very poor. At that point US has sucked all the blood out it can. They don’t have anyone else and the pain from excess looting the non-west, no longer possible, is shrinking the real economy. Which is why they are going berserk with wars.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 12 2023 15:21 utc | 36
Agree with the premise (last paragraph), disagree with what follows from it.
US is focusing on a limited number of strategic industries (on which EU + others depend):
defence, IT/ communications, energy resources etc. (not sure if finance still belongs onto the list)
US cannot ‘take over’ all those consumer goods industries, even if it wanted to. Supplying that stuff is Europe’s and Japan’s job. Sort of ‘wartime division of labour’ – compare it to Nazi Germany ‘outsourcing’ non-strategic production to countries it occupied.
(Also, industrial workers tend to be well-unionized, and you don’t want too much of that, do you…)
However, if there’s a major crisis in Europe, global USD-held capital might swoop in to buy up industries on the cheap. Maybe I misunderstood you and that’s what you meant? In that case, I’d agree.

Posted by: smuks | Oct 12 2023 23:21 utc | 165

US can definitely see some short gain wins from the demise EU i.e. absorbing EU enterprises for itself.
Right now they have taken over LNG business, they seem to be taking over steel and aluminium business. I’d imagine they will also take over electric vehicle and battery business, US companies will own all the more important mines in Europe, they will take over the aircraft industry and drive Airbus out, they are gradually taking over the entire defense sector business.
EU gets left with only service economy and become very poor. At that point US has sucked all the blood out it can. They don’t have anyone else and the pain from excess looting the non-west, no longer possible, is shrinking the real economy. Which is why they are going berserk with wars.

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 12 2023 15:21 utc | 36
Agree with the premise (last paragraph), disagree with what follows from it.
US is focusing on a limited number of strategic industries (on which EU + others depend):
defence, IT/ communications, energy resources etc. (not sure if finance still belongs onto the list)
US cannot ‘take over’ all those consumer goods industries, even if it wanted to. Supplying that stuff is Europe’s and Japan’s job. Sort of ‘wartime division of labour’ – compare it to Nazi Germany ‘outsourcing’ non-strategic production to countries it occupied.
(Also, industrial workers tend to be well-unionized, and you don’t want too much of that, do you…)
However, if there’s a major crisis in Europe, global USD-held capital might swoop in to buy up industries on the cheap. Maybe I misunderstood you and that’s what you meant? In that case, I’d agree.

Posted by: smuks | Oct 12 2023 23:21 utc | 166

“Borrell insisted that the “war in Ukraine has transformed us … from the position of an economic power to a geopolitical one, taking its strategic responsibilities very seriously”.”
This seems to me to take the prize for the dumbest statement of Borell’s cited by b and also one of the dumbest statements of all time.
The war has demonstrated rather conclusively that Europe lacks sovereignty—who actually cares what they say? It’s pathetic.
Some of its member “nations'” citizens do seem to have noticed this recently . . .

Posted by: Jane | Oct 12 2023 23:28 utc | 167

“Borrell insisted that the “war in Ukraine has transformed us … from the position of an economic power to a geopolitical one, taking its strategic responsibilities very seriously”.”
This seems to me to take the prize for the dumbest statement of Borell’s cited by b and also one of the dumbest statements of all time.
The war has demonstrated rather conclusively that Europe lacks sovereignty—who actually cares what they say? It’s pathetic.
Some of its member “nations'” citizens do seem to have noticed this recently . . .

Posted by: Jane | Oct 12 2023 23:28 utc | 168

A cogent analysis….
The Sirius Report
@thesiriusreport
It is very clear now that the Beltway is completely fragmented, with statements being issued, followed by counter statements which deny or contradict the original statement. We see endless contradictions in what are perceived as policy initiatives. There are those who continue to pretend this is the 1980s and 1990s and the US still rules the roost and there are those who know that US hegemony is over. There are those who staggeringly believe that Hamas offers the US a chance to regain its stature on the world stage and those who know this is only going to accelerate its demise as an hegemonic power.
It is reflective of a dying empire and now it is finally waking up to that fact in a substantive manner and in seeking to try address this decline by turning a proverbial oil tanker around on a dime. Only it is incapable of doing so because it is completely hamstrung by its own ideological and inflexible mindset.

NATO now finds itself between a rock and a hard place…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 13 2023 0:12 utc | 169

A cogent analysis….
The Sirius Report
@thesiriusreport
It is very clear now that the Beltway is completely fragmented, with statements being issued, followed by counter statements which deny or contradict the original statement. We see endless contradictions in what are perceived as policy initiatives. There are those who continue to pretend this is the 1980s and 1990s and the US still rules the roost and there are those who know that US hegemony is over. There are those who staggeringly believe that Hamas offers the US a chance to regain its stature on the world stage and those who know this is only going to accelerate its demise as an hegemonic power.
It is reflective of a dying empire and now it is finally waking up to that fact in a substantive manner and in seeking to try address this decline by turning a proverbial oil tanker around on a dime. Only it is incapable of doing so because it is completely hamstrung by its own ideological and inflexible mindset.

NATO now finds itself between a rock and a hard place…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 13 2023 0:12 utc | 170

Nail on head again b. Fuck the sterile Gardeners, the jungle is where life actually exists.
The elephant in the room is finally acknowledged!
It has been invited to join ‘the chat’.
It can’t help but look bemused.
The first attempt to communicate with it is with a threat!
We have 🤡 🤡 🤡 leading us.
Unelected leaders. Speaking on our behalf!
Not In My Name.
Hmm. Let me guess how this goes.
We put sanctions on them. They shrug and carry on as they were. We suffer from our sanctions on them.
We make a proxy war.
We lose.
The proxies get annihilated.
We try and ignore it and move on.
We attempt yet another rinse and repeat.
Eventually we won’t be able to fool ourselves
as we can’t already anyone else. Except our ‘best mates’.
We end up in our own private new dark age.
Barking. Mad.
Whilst. They shake their heads and their caravan moves on.
The End.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 13 2023 0:14 utc | 171

Nail on head again b. Fuck the sterile Gardeners, the jungle is where life actually exists.
The elephant in the room is finally acknowledged!
It has been invited to join ‘the chat’.
It can’t help but look bemused.
The first attempt to communicate with it is with a threat!
We have 🤡 🤡 🤡 leading us.
Unelected leaders. Speaking on our behalf!
Not In My Name.
Hmm. Let me guess how this goes.
We put sanctions on them. They shrug and carry on as they were. We suffer from our sanctions on them.
We make a proxy war.
We lose.
The proxies get annihilated.
We try and ignore it and move on.
We attempt yet another rinse and repeat.
Eventually we won’t be able to fool ourselves
as we can’t already anyone else. Except our ‘best mates’.
We end up in our own private new dark age.
Barking. Mad.
Whilst. They shake their heads and their caravan moves on.
The End.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 13 2023 0:14 utc | 172

On Topic “Clown of Brussels” Classic
L’engagement direct des troupes de l’OTAN pourrait-il sauver l’Ukraine?

les Ukrainiens qui mènent des combats de Zoulous

is a colorful, tragic touch

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 13 2023 0:16 utc | 173

On Topic “Clown of Brussels” Classic
L’engagement direct des troupes de l’OTAN pourrait-il sauver l’Ukraine?

les Ukrainiens qui mènent des combats de Zoulous

is a colorful, tragic touch

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 13 2023 0:16 utc | 174

@ LoveDonbass | Oct 12 2023 20:37 utc | 74
During the intifada the PLO used minimal violence (little kids with rocks and not much more), Israel knew they would would loose quickly against this strategy. So the Occupational force replaced the PLO with a violent religious group (Hamas)…
And Hamas is still on the Israel’s payroll..?
So they get travel passes and luxury vacations and many other perks as part of the deal…
No other Palestinians get these privs. They come directly from Israel…
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
https://www.globalresearch.ca/flashback-ron-paul-hamas-started-israel/5835470

Posted by: ATM | Oct 13 2023 0:17 utc | 175

@ LoveDonbass | Oct 12 2023 20:37 utc | 74
During the intifada the PLO used minimal violence (little kids with rocks and not much more), Israel knew they would would loose quickly against this strategy. So the Occupational force replaced the PLO with a violent religious group (Hamas)…
And Hamas is still on the Israel’s payroll..?
So they get travel passes and luxury vacations and many other perks as part of the deal…
No other Palestinians get these privs. They come directly from Israel…
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
https://www.globalresearch.ca/flashback-ron-paul-hamas-started-israel/5835470

Posted by: ATM | Oct 13 2023 0:17 utc | 176

Most weapons need steel and aluminum. This stupid decision will increase price of both and increase the cost of NATO defense industry. NATO is digging its own grave.
China is next Russia. Should be ready to face NATO and other US puppets.

Posted by: Jason | Oct 13 2023 0:22 utc | 177

Most weapons need steel and aluminum. This stupid decision will increase price of both and increase the cost of NATO defense industry. NATO is digging its own grave.
China is next Russia. Should be ready to face NATO and other US puppets.

Posted by: Jason | Oct 13 2023 0:22 utc | 178

@Jane | Oct 12 2023 23:28 utc | 84
“Some of its member “nations” citizens do seem to have noticed this recently . . . ”
Yes, we do need to come up with an appropriate label for these EU subordinates.
Perhaps nation is too strong? territory? region? enclave? stomping grounds?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 13 2023 0:29 utc | 179

@Jane | Oct 12 2023 23:28 utc | 84
“Some of its member “nations” citizens do seem to have noticed this recently . . . ”
Yes, we do need to come up with an appropriate label for these EU subordinates.
Perhaps nation is too strong? territory? region? enclave? stomping grounds?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 13 2023 0:29 utc | 180

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 12 2023 21:54 utc | 79
way to pack the last 60 years of US de-industrialization! well done.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 13 2023 0:32 utc | 181

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 12 2023 21:54 utc | 79
way to pack the last 60 years of US de-industrialization! well done.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 13 2023 0:32 utc | 182

@Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 15:05 utc | 28
UvdL got nothing because she did not have a formal invitation from the Chinese government. Her visit was a breach of protocol and the Chinese response demonstrated what the Chinese government thought of this.

Posted by: cirsium | Oct 13 2023 0:44 utc | 183

@Don Bacon | Oct 12 2023 15:05 utc | 28
UvdL got nothing because she did not have a formal invitation from the Chinese government. Her visit was a breach of protocol and the Chinese response demonstrated what the Chinese government thought of this.

Posted by: cirsium | Oct 13 2023 0:44 utc | 184

It is easy to miss the whole forest by looking at the trees. All this talk is simply part of the re-alignment of the World into the New World and the Has Been World, that is two new global blocks. The so called “Globalists” of the Has Been World will end up imposing their ideology (you will own nothing, we will own everything, and you will be happy) only within the Has Been World. ConVid lie will be the last global con – this is why WHO is trying to railroad the resistance of the New World countries to its power grab (if you do not object then you agree to the loss of sovereignty, but if you object then WHO will ignore your objections). In other words, Bill Gates, WEF, WHO and the Paedo.org will be the capos only of the totalitarian Has Been World. Most of Europe will become totally subservient, not to US then to those “globalist” capos. Eventually, the mass migration will reverse and will flow from the Has Been World into the New World, give it 20-30 years max. It appears that the Has Been World has already lost a lot of explosives manufacturing capability as part of its deindustrialisation and it is now stooping to bioweapons (Covid) and to supporting terrorists (the ISIS and the Ukrainian models) wherever this is possible. But the technological gap between the New World and the Has Been World will keep widening, which means that the totalitarian Has Been World will never be able again to engage in direct confrontation – real war. Soon, the New World will be able to counter the last serious threat from the Has Been World – their SLBMs. Without a possibility to do the First Nuclear Strike, the Has Been World will only have the subterfuge left.
Humanity only has to avoid nuclear war (MAD) until the New World gains this technological advantage to disable the nuclear threat of the Has Been World.

Posted by: Kiza | Oct 13 2023 0:49 utc | 185

It is easy to miss the whole forest by looking at the trees. All this talk is simply part of the re-alignment of the World into the New World and the Has Been World, that is two new global blocks. The so called “Globalists” of the Has Been World will end up imposing their ideology (you will own nothing, we will own everything, and you will be happy) only within the Has Been World. ConVid lie will be the last global con – this is why WHO is trying to railroad the resistance of the New World countries to its power grab (if you do not object then you agree to the loss of sovereignty, but if you object then WHO will ignore your objections). In other words, Bill Gates, WEF, WHO and the Paedo.org will be the capos only of the totalitarian Has Been World. Most of Europe will become totally subservient, not to US then to those “globalist” capos. Eventually, the mass migration will reverse and will flow from the Has Been World into the New World, give it 20-30 years max. It appears that the Has Been World has already lost a lot of explosives manufacturing capability as part of its deindustrialisation and it is now stooping to bioweapons (Covid) and to supporting terrorists (the ISIS and the Ukrainian models) wherever this is possible. But the technological gap between the New World and the Has Been World will keep widening, which means that the totalitarian Has Been World will never be able again to engage in direct confrontation – real war. Soon, the New World will be able to counter the last serious threat from the Has Been World – their SLBMs. Without a possibility to do the First Nuclear Strike, the Has Been World will only have the subterfuge left.
Humanity only has to avoid nuclear war (MAD) until the New World gains this technological advantage to disable the nuclear threat of the Has Been World.

Posted by: Kiza | Oct 13 2023 0:49 utc | 186

The main threat to EU steel industry is the EU “Green” policy. In these eggheads territory a steel factory has to have zero emissions of any kind – magic in one word. The steel is needed for more giant windmills etc.
Sure, similar WEF dumbos are in power in Washington but Brussels is equally to blame to go along for the ride. Why always fault others, like “the Russians”, the Americans or the Israelis?
The EU monster was created with the Maastricht” treaty and enforced by European courts.
The PRC indeed state subsidized a lot of industries to wipe out global competition (solar panels f.e.) which goes against a free market but they did that since day one, nothing new. The WEFers loved it as it made their profits in China even higher but now they changed tack mostly under the “Trump” effect – the wild card spanner in their big Wheel, which is why they hate him.

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 13 2023 0:59 utc | 187

The main threat to EU steel industry is the EU “Green” policy. In these eggheads territory a steel factory has to have zero emissions of any kind – magic in one word. The steel is needed for more giant windmills etc.
Sure, similar WEF dumbos are in power in Washington but Brussels is equally to blame to go along for the ride. Why always fault others, like “the Russians”, the Americans or the Israelis?
The EU monster was created with the Maastricht” treaty and enforced by European courts.
The PRC indeed state subsidized a lot of industries to wipe out global competition (solar panels f.e.) which goes against a free market but they did that since day one, nothing new. The WEFers loved it as it made their profits in China even higher but now they changed tack mostly under the “Trump” effect – the wild card spanner in their big Wheel, which is why they hate him.

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 13 2023 0:59 utc | 188

@ Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 13 2023 0:12 utc | 85
@ Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 12 2023 19:59 utc | 68
@ Posted by: lester | Oct 12 2023 15:29 utc | 41
@ Posted by: Roger | Oct 12 2023 15:21 utc | 37
@ Posted by: too scents | Oct 12 2023 15:00 utc | 25
Thank you all for adding personal insight into what happened to the US steel industry. I like conversation where I learn something new.
ATM

Posted by: ATM | Oct 13 2023 1:01 utc | 189

@ Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 13 2023 0:12 utc | 85
@ Posted by: Acco Hengst | Oct 12 2023 19:59 utc | 68
@ Posted by: lester | Oct 12 2023 15:29 utc | 41
@ Posted by: Roger | Oct 12 2023 15:21 utc | 37
@ Posted by: too scents | Oct 12 2023 15:00 utc | 25
Thank you all for adding personal insight into what happened to the US steel industry. I like conversation where I learn something new.
ATM

Posted by: ATM | Oct 13 2023 1:01 utc | 190

US is focusing on a limited number of strategic industries (on which EU + others depend): defence, IT/ communications, energy resources etc. (not sure if finance still belongs onto the list)
Posted by: smuks | Oct 12 2023 23:21 utc | 83
See what you did there? You omitted (1) manufacture and (2) resource management from industrial planning (i.e. “strategic” economic development). However, raw goods are the basis of supply chain and value “added” processing at each phase of production.
raw –> intermediate –>finished (–>recycle is “circular economy” process that eliminates externalities, or waste)
No raw material, no industry. Raw material is the limiting factor on industrial scale activity and velocity of profit. Both political blocs have exhausted domestic reservoirs of requisite material input (not that Europe ever had much) to maintain the sophisticated service a/k/a knowledge industries a/k/a advanced economy to which generations of their constituents are now accustomed. Historically, both political blocs have depended on force and guile to exploit unsophisticated property rights off-shore and assure uninterrupted export of raw goods from around the world to ports in their own territory.
It’s surprising that the focus of this comment is not “supply chain security” and “dependence” of “developed” nations on so-called resource rich nations that are no longer willing or able to satisfy demand and terms of uhh traditional trade “partnership.” This is after all, the kernel of mortal conflict, organized racketeering, and “sanction compliance” imposed by the G7 on third-countries.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 13 2023 1:57 utc | 191

US is focusing on a limited number of strategic industries (on which EU + others depend): defence, IT/ communications, energy resources etc. (not sure if finance still belongs onto the list)
Posted by: smuks | Oct 12 2023 23:21 utc | 83
See what you did there? You omitted (1) manufacture and (2) resource management from industrial planning (i.e. “strategic” economic development). However, raw goods are the basis of supply chain and value “added” processing at each phase of production.
raw –> intermediate –>finished (–>recycle is “circular economy” process that eliminates externalities, or waste)
No raw material, no industry. Raw material is the limiting factor on industrial scale activity and velocity of profit. Both political blocs have exhausted domestic reservoirs of requisite material input (not that Europe ever had much) to maintain the sophisticated service a/k/a knowledge industries a/k/a advanced economy to which generations of their constituents are now accustomed. Historically, both political blocs have depended on force and guile to exploit unsophisticated property rights off-shore and assure uninterrupted export of raw goods from around the world to ports in their own territory.
It’s surprising that the focus of this comment is not “supply chain security” and “dependence” of “developed” nations on so-called resource rich nations that are no longer willing or able to satisfy demand and terms of uhh traditional trade “partnership.” This is after all, the kernel of mortal conflict, organized racketeering, and “sanction compliance” imposed by the G7 on third-countries.

Posted by: sln2002 | Oct 13 2023 1:57 utc | 192

@ cirsium | Oct 13 2023 0:44 utc | 91
UvdL got nothing because she did not have a formal invitation from the Chinese government. . .
No.
. . .from Politico, Apr 11

Macron and von der Leyen were traveling together in China to present a united European front. Mamer [EU spokes] said the two “were trying to pass on to President Xi … a message about the significant policy dimensions of our relation with China — and that came through.”
Yet China spent the trip trying to divide the leaders, catering more to Macron than to von der Leyen.
During his three-day state stay, Macron got lavish greetings and around six hours with Xi, while von der Leyen got only a couple of meetings with the Chinese leader and little ceremonial pomp.
Mamer said the differences were because von der Leyen’s trip was not a state visit. . . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 13 2023 1:59 utc | 193

@ cirsium | Oct 13 2023 0:44 utc | 91
UvdL got nothing because she did not have a formal invitation from the Chinese government. . .
No.
. . .from Politico, Apr 11

Macron and von der Leyen were traveling together in China to present a united European front. Mamer [EU spokes] said the two “were trying to pass on to President Xi … a message about the significant policy dimensions of our relation with China — and that came through.”
Yet China spent the trip trying to divide the leaders, catering more to Macron than to von der Leyen.
During his three-day state stay, Macron got lavish greetings and around six hours with Xi, while von der Leyen got only a couple of meetings with the Chinese leader and little ceremonial pomp.
Mamer said the differences were because von der Leyen’s trip was not a state visit. . . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 13 2023 1:59 utc | 194

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:20 utc | 71
[E]xplain to me how the leader of Hamas, this new Hitler, can live in luxury in Qatar, one of the US’s principal allies in the region?
It should be clear by now. that the corporations and their wealthy owners are using the nation state governments to 1) grab opportunities revealed by state paid-for-intelligence and 2) destroy competition which threatens the multi-national corporations 3) deploy governments to privatize ownership of all monopoly power <=into private corporate hands 4) impose economic sanction on or against would be or actual competitors; 5) instigate and conduct regime change; and 6) either to prosecute war or to set one nation against another nation in soft or hard warfare. The war in Ukraine, the NATO support for Ukraine and the Hamas infringement into the Israeli part of Palestine is every bit suspicious of oil and gas, technology and food industry involvement evidenced by economic and banking sanctions imposed against Palestinian and Russian interest <=seeking access to markets anywhere in the world. The destruction of Nord Stream II and recent EU regulations denying EU citizens access to competitively cheap Oil and gas add more support. It might be useful to quit substituting politician names and country names as proxies to avoid naming those responsible, at the cause level, for these regional conflicts. Countries and the politicians that manage them are nothing more than bought and paid for button pushers. Many at the bar at smart enough, in their sober moments, to dig into which corporations are, and how the corporations are, controlling the governments that manage the conflicts that occur in select regions of the world. If ever humanity is to throw off the curse of propaganda over inquiring open rational mind and thought; humanity will first need to expose the root of the problems the mind control propaganda is designed to support. I propose that oil and gas rich resources offshore of Gaza explains the Israeli government attempt to cleanse the Gaza shoreline. After all, that shoreline has a statutory claim to the offshore oil and gas reserves found there and transport access to the sea is an economic essential. If Palestinians remain in the Gaza Strip they will possess the resources and retain access to the sea. Competition for regional resources and productive potential explain the pressure which has, since 1948, transformed security organizations into commercial mafia organizations. I propose Resource wars explain the Maiden and post maiden events in Ukraine and the current Hamas strike designed to incite and justify the removal of Palestinians from Gaza. Race, politics, economics, religion are weapons used by bought and paid for political management to satisfy greed of a few at the expense of the many. Neither government nor their politicians are at cause of these conflicts. Governments and politicians are just the button pushers. The conflicts all seem connected to a hidden set of phantoms. If ever humanity is to tame the phantoms, it will need to be able to identify and locate and understand the phantoms. Hiding the phantom behind a politicians' name or nation states' name aggravates the problem of cause discovery. Please note that all instruments of power, are vested in the hands of proxies (non human organizations, NHOs). The NHOs are controlled by a few button pushers, and the button pushers are owned or controlled by the non human corporations and the NHCs are owned by and controlled by the very few humans who control everything.

Posted by: snake | Oct 13 2023 2:04 utc | 195

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 12 2023 20:20 utc | 71
[E]xplain to me how the leader of Hamas, this new Hitler, can live in luxury in Qatar, one of the US’s principal allies in the region?
It should be clear by now. that the corporations and their wealthy owners are using the nation state governments to 1) grab opportunities revealed by state paid-for-intelligence and 2) destroy competition which threatens the multi-national corporations 3) deploy governments to privatize ownership of all monopoly power <=into private corporate hands 4) impose economic sanction on or against would be or actual competitors; 5) instigate and conduct regime change; and 6) either to prosecute war or to set one nation against another nation in soft or hard warfare. The war in Ukraine, the NATO support for Ukraine and the Hamas infringement into the Israeli part of Palestine is every bit suspicious of oil and gas, technology and food industry involvement evidenced by economic and banking sanctions imposed against Palestinian and Russian interest <=seeking access to markets anywhere in the world. The destruction of Nord Stream II and recent EU regulations denying EU citizens access to competitively cheap Oil and gas add more support. It might be useful to quit substituting politician names and country names as proxies to avoid naming those responsible, at the cause level, for these regional conflicts. Countries and the politicians that manage them are nothing more than bought and paid for button pushers. Many at the bar at smart enough, in their sober moments, to dig into which corporations are, and how the corporations are, controlling the governments that manage the conflicts that occur in select regions of the world. If ever humanity is to throw off the curse of propaganda over inquiring open rational mind and thought; humanity will first need to expose the root of the problems the mind control propaganda is designed to support. I propose that oil and gas rich resources offshore of Gaza explains the Israeli government attempt to cleanse the Gaza shoreline. After all, that shoreline has a statutory claim to the offshore oil and gas reserves found there and transport access to the sea is an economic essential. If Palestinians remain in the Gaza Strip they will possess the resources and retain access to the sea. Competition for regional resources and productive potential explain the pressure which has, since 1948, transformed security organizations into commercial mafia organizations. I propose Resource wars explain the Maiden and post maiden events in Ukraine and the current Hamas strike designed to incite and justify the removal of Palestinians from Gaza. Race, politics, economics, religion are weapons used by bought and paid for political management to satisfy greed of a few at the expense of the many. Neither government nor their politicians are at cause of these conflicts. Governments and politicians are just the button pushers. The conflicts all seem connected to a hidden set of phantoms. If ever humanity is to tame the phantoms, it will need to be able to identify and locate and understand the phantoms. Hiding the phantom behind a politicians' name or nation states' name aggravates the problem of cause discovery. Please note that all instruments of power, are vested in the hands of proxies (non human organizations, NHOs). The NHOs are controlled by a few button pushers, and the button pushers are owned or controlled by the non human corporations and the NHCs are owned by and controlled by the very few humans who control everything.

Posted by: snake | Oct 13 2023 2:04 utc | 196

I just watched the Duran with Alistaire Crooke, for anyone who is unsure what is going on I do recommend watching this to make an understanding on an ideoligistic level. Brilliant
https://rumble.com/v3okn3w-extremist-politics-in-israel-and-ukraine-alastair-crooke-alexander-mercouri.html
Posted by: Scot1and | Oct 12 2023 17:14 utc | 53
Yes, a really brilliant must-watch.
Crooke brings new material and background—new to me—on the situations both within Israel and within Ukraine. In both cases there is delusional thinking as to who one is.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 13 2023 2:16 utc | 197

I just watched the Duran with Alistaire Crooke, for anyone who is unsure what is going on I do recommend watching this to make an understanding on an ideoligistic level. Brilliant
https://rumble.com/v3okn3w-extremist-politics-in-israel-and-ukraine-alastair-crooke-alexander-mercouri.html
Posted by: Scot1and | Oct 12 2023 17:14 utc | 53
Yes, a really brilliant must-watch.
Crooke brings new material and background—new to me—on the situations both within Israel and within Ukraine. In both cases there is delusional thinking as to who one is.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 13 2023 2:16 utc | 198

@ my 96
The videos of Macron and vdl arriving at Beijing were amusing.
When Macron departed the plane he was met by a coterie of French officials, and then later after leaving the airport Macron walked the military line with Xi. Full honors.
Ursula must have been restrained from leaving the plane until Macron and company cleared the area. She walked down the stairway and at the tarmac there was nobody. She did have her perennial smile as she walked alone over the tarmac toward the terminal, and finally she met up with someone. No State, no honors.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 13 2023 3:12 utc | 199

@ my 96
The videos of Macron and vdl arriving at Beijing were amusing.
When Macron departed the plane he was met by a coterie of French officials, and then later after leaving the airport Macron walked the military line with Xi. Full honors.
Ursula must have been restrained from leaving the plane until Macron and company cleared the area. She walked down the stairway and at the tarmac there was nobody. She did have her perennial smile as she walked alone over the tarmac toward the terminal, and finally she met up with someone. No State, no honors.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 13 2023 3:12 utc | 200